Survivor AU: Redemption Mark Warnock Deep Dive

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[00:01:38] I needed this. The Ultimate Rites. The Ultimate Rites. The Ultimate Rites. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to RHAP's coverage of Australian Survivor Redemption.

[00:02:06] My name is Mike Bloom, and we already started our deep dives, but I suppose we are swimming through these deep waters, walking through and with these wonderful cast members from this wonderful season of Australian Survivor. And I am ecstatic to talk with this man today about quite a show that he put on over the course of nearly all of the season of Australian Survivor Redemption. We're going to get into it all.

[00:02:35] He came to Samoa looking to fight Ghost. I think Mark can call you an Australian Survivor Ghostbuster. How are you doing right now? Haha, Ghostbuster. I'll take it. I'm good, Mike. I'm good. I mean, what a cool season to be a part of. I'm very happy with everything. I like we got to have the reunion. I got to like finally see it all play out. Um, and then yeah, I've been chilling for the last week or so. And then now I have the pleasure of talking to you. I should start.

[00:03:06] For those who are watching on YouTube, I've worn a specific shirt today. You can see it, but it's Caleb sent me a shirt in the mail that says, Caleb Chaos. You are not being the allegations of the fan of every turn. I asked Keely, I was like, should I wear my crazy Caleb Chaos shirt this morning? And she was like, yeah. I think you should. Oh, 100%. I mean, I'm intrigued. We're obviously going to go bit by bit through everything that happened in this game.

[00:03:33] But I'm curious because you have certainly been around this block once before. In fact, only a couple of years ago. What was sort of the difference for you in like anticipation of watching this season back versus Titans and Rebels watching that back? Oh, that's an interesting question. Because yeah, the moment in your brain where you realize, okay, I've just gone and played this thing in Samoa. I have my version of what happened and then anticipating the edit.

[00:04:02] If you let it, it will eat you up inside. And I was gently trying to, I don't know how much the newbies wanted to hear from me anymore, but I was gently trying to suggest, I was like, you know, like try not to let it eat you up. But I think for Titans v Rebels, I had a pretty good sense of the edit. I didn't realize how big Ferris and Kirby's storyline would be. And I suppose that was like the thing where I was like, okay. And like, obviously it makes sense.

[00:04:31] It's like the best, possibly the best story in Australian survivor history and globally. Whereas this time, I had to check myself. I came home and I spoke to my wife and I said, hey, I think this season is going to have a lot of me in it. And she's like, you can't say that, Mark. You can't say that. You know, Sandra Diaz-Twine has famously said, you can never predict the edit. And I'm like, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.

[00:05:00] But still, I think, I don't think that they can escape my storyline or the storyline that I was part of and helped create. So I, watching it back, it's like, it's beautiful to have a record of my memory. I'm like, this is exactly how I remember pretty much everything. Obviously, I wasn't there for sort of the end game. And so that was really interesting to see what happened after I got voted off. You know, obviously, I could see on the jury, like all the tribal councils were there,

[00:05:30] but that was really cool. And then it was really cool to see the early Bounty Tribe. But otherwise, I'm like, oh, sweet. Like, I remember all this because it's all me. Quite unusual. Well, let's talk about what had you making memory starting a second album here on your Australian Survivor journey because we got a lot of pregame stuff to talk through here. Mark, I imagine there was a lot of really intriguing approaches you took mentally, physically, emotionally

[00:05:58] between your first time out and your second time out. So I guess let's start with the beginning. So when were you contacted about coming back to Australian Survivor? And were you told the extent of, okay, it's four returnees and a bunch of newbies? Yeah. So super late in the piece, Mike. I think I was the last person cast. I don't know, but I'm pretty confident I am like 24th. Not just the fourth returnee. I think I am the last person onto the bus.

[00:06:28] So yeah, it's just wild to me. So I got a call. So we left in late July. I was working at work. It was a Friday afternoon. Phone rang, saw the name. I'm like, oh, God, you know, here we go. And they were like, okay, Mark. You may know that there's going to be a redemption season filming very soon. There'll be four to six returnees.

[00:06:56] Would you like to be considered as probably one of the final returnees? And if you're interested, this is Friday. If you're interested on Monday, tell me because we're going to go to the network next week and you'll know by the end of next week. And for departure in like three weeks or four weeks. And the first time I played, I had to quit my job to play. And I've gone, oh, no.

[00:07:24] And so like the entire logistical process of this was just absolutely bonkers. I'll go through it quickly. But essentially, there was like three things. I was like, okay, can't lose my job. I can't jeopardize any other jobs that I'm potentially in the running for, which is like I had a few other things in the pipeline. And then like, you know, I wanted more than like a dollar a day or whatever it is, you know. But I wasn't like going in there being like, hey, maybe my dues.

[00:07:53] But maybe I should. But no, I'm kidding. So like luckily work was like, we'll make it happen. So that was great. And then I went home, I had a chat with my wife. And it was like, we both started off from a position of saying no. Let's like our default be no. Because we were discussing, it's like, why do I need to play again? Like I came third. I won a car. I had a pretty good edit.

[00:08:23] You know, I got away like more or less scot-free. You know, my failures were like there, but they weren't like terrible. Like what, what, you know, why do you want to do this again? And this is me asking this as well as, you know, my wife. And so we were both like, okay, let's go away with a no. And only if we both decide to say yes, will we play. So we told production on Monday, yeah, I mean, even though we had not decided. And we're basically, we're both no's.

[00:08:51] We were both no right up until the very end. And it's just like the itch that you can't scratch. And I think the clincher for me was looking back at Titans v Rebels. I played the sort of game that you would play as a fan of Survivor would play. Like, oh, I know what I probably should do. I can use my skills effectively.

[00:09:18] But, you know, like I remember thinking, like if I get to the final Tribal Council, I can then, that's the time I can reveal all the things that I've done. And I can like talk about all my moves. But not realizing that if you don't get there, then obviously some of those things won't be shown. So I think Sas and I were like, that's my wife. She was like, just go out there and be yourself. And just show your personality a bit more.

[00:09:41] And obviously since playing Titans v Rebels, I've met a bunch of new friends like Annabelle from The Traitors and Karin from Brains v Brawn 2, two notable ones. And they were both like, Mark, you are pretty sassy and kind of bonkers. But it didn't come, and Karin's like, I actually found you really boring on Titans v Rebels. I'm surprised we're friends. And I was like, yeah, fair. And Annabelle was like, you know, we were doing these outrageous podcasts. Yes.

[00:10:10] And then we were like tagging like US Survivor players in our like outrageous podcast. Like Sol was one in particular who he thought they were really funny because we thought they were funny. And so Annabelle and Karin were like, just go out there and just be yourself. Be like, be the Mark that we know. And don't worry about being like Mark the super fan. And so that combined with Sass, you know, when I was saying to Sass, like maybe we just go out there and just have fun. She was like, all right. Okay, fine. And so we both said yes.

[00:10:40] And then obviously there was a ruse. I think they said that they had someone else in the pipeline, but I think that was a lie. And I think I was just the last person cast. And then I'm pretty sure it was done. Did you have any awareness as to the other three returnees identity? Or did you find out once your feet hit that sand? Oh, Mike. Oh, God. So I can't reveal everything. I knew of other players that were asked and couldn't play.

[00:11:08] So I knew the theme. But so when I knew the theme, I was Simon Mead lives in Brisbane and he's a good, good, good friend. And I went to his place and I was like, mate, there is no freaking way that there is a survivor redemption season and you're not the first person called. Like, I don't know anyone who needs redeeming more than you as a friend, as a friend, you know, with love. And he's like, nah, nah, nah, nah, no, no, no. And he was like, swear. And he's like, I've got a trip to Bali booked.

[00:11:38] I'm like, oh, of course you do. Of course you do. He's like, nah, I've got a surfing trip. And he had like the tickets on his phone, like the flights and everything. And I'm like, nah, I don't believe it. And we were really hassling him. And he was like getting really angry at us for like doing this. And we were like, okay, fine, we'll stop. And so I left him alone and I was like, oh, like whatever. But at this point in time, I hadn't been called. So this is just me like just for fun.

[00:12:07] And then I got the call and I'm like, oh, God, I should like keep my mouth shut a little bit. And then right at the end, we were discussing like some of the terms and conditions. And I was like, oh, I don't really know how to handle this. And I'm like, the only person that has done this before that I actually trust is Simon.

[00:12:27] And so I called Simon and I'm like, mate, like just on the DL, mate, like how should I approach this final stage of the thing? And he gave me some advice and he's like, and then he's like, let me know if you lock it in. And once he was locked in, I called him. I'm like, okay, I'll see you. Like enjoy your Bali surfing trip. I'm heading out. And he goes, I'll see you out there, buddy. And I was like, I knew it. I knew it. I was right.

[00:12:56] So I knew Simon and then, and Simon can't help himself a little bit. He told me very late. I'm talking like we're flying to Sydney. He mentioned that Brooke was going to be out there. And I think he said this publicly as well somewhere else. I didn't know about Harry and I wasn't sure about the actual number of people. And I was wondering who the other woman would be.

[00:13:24] I anticipated there would be like two and two or three and three. I knew some of the other women that were in contention. So I was quite curious to think through like who that would be because, yeah, anyway. And so that's basically what it was. And then, but even still, like you don't really believe it until you see them. Like there's always people like shooting their mouths, you know. And so once I saw Brooke in the flesh, I was like, wow, that's awesome.

[00:13:51] And then I saw Harry at the airport and I, like my jaw dropped. I was like, oh my God. And then I'm like, there's three blokes in one cheek. I'm like, the fans are going to hate that. And they're going to hate me. And then that was it. So yeah. So I'm curious, obviously you had a much less or I say much more intensive prep period considering the short notice that you were brought on here. Did you change anything notably though, based on your first time, considering you're like, if I'm hoping to make another 45, 46 day run, this is what I need to do differently.

[00:14:22] Oh, like absolutely zero physical prep. None. Absolutely no watching of Survivor. None. You've seen enough. I've seen it. I've done it. I, um, I reflected. I, as we all saw, I was just reflecting so much on Titans v Rebels. Um, uh, and feedback I got.

[00:14:48] So the executive producer, when I got voted off, uh, it's, I couldn't believe I remembered this, but when I got voted off in Titans v Rebels, like, you know, at the very last stage, um, the executive producer said to me, you know, you played a great game. They always see, always like trying to make you feel good. But this guy was like pretty direct. And he said, oh, you know, Mark, like, um, I think what you've realized now is that in Survivor, sometimes you've just got to break things and then patch it up rather than trying

[00:15:16] to engineer everything perfectly. Because I think in Titans v Rebels, I was like very much working through other people, the invisible hand, like trying to get other people to do my bidding. And sometimes that worked. But I think that he was like, you, you lacked like a little aggression because I think you were too worried about breaking eggs. Like just, just break the eggs and then make it, make the omelet and then clean up afterwards. That was one.

[00:15:42] And then secondly, at the lunch that, um, so on the day of the finale, um, Ferris, Caroline and I went to a lunch where they announced, where they told Ferris that he won. And we met with the story producer who was then the executive producer on the season. And she said, she said to me, uh, Mark, they're reflecting on all of our games. And she said, Mark, what I loved about you was that on the storyboard, you're everywhere. Like you're every, you're connected to everyone and you're everywhere.

[00:16:11] And there's no way that the story can advance without understanding what your perspective is on it. Like you always have a view. So you will either be for it or against it, or you won't just be a passenger. Um, so, and, and she said, that's really good. That's really good that you are in, you seem like you're a friendly, nice guy sort of player and a very like socially connected player, but you're one of the most individualistic

[00:16:37] players out there because you're always just doing usually what's best for you. And so that was like really like going through my head in terms of like, okay, why would production ask me back? You know, um, but what is it about me that they want back? And, and knowing that this person, Phoebe was now the EP, I'm like, I think she wants me just to like get stuck in and be more aggressive. So that was definitely, um, was definitely more thinking about like the level of aggression that I would bring to the game.

[00:17:06] And then I brought it to the back. So I wasn't expecting to go that hard, but I knew I needed to dial up the aggression, stick to like the diplomatic, like stick to my diplomatic skills. Like that's what I'm strong at. I just be a bit more aggressive. Um, obviously like the viola vote out is a great example of that when, when the other people were more aggressive and, um, and to have more fun.

[00:17:30] Um, I think that when the, this is the benefit of seeing an edit is that when you see myself having fun, I can see it in the show. Like you can see it in the camera. The camera doesn't lie and I could see it in for us. And I think I can see it in Kirby. I can see it. That's why Titans v Rebels is so good because I think everyone is just actually having fun. Whereas Brains v Brawn 2 had like less fun. And then in lockdown before the game started, we got to watch Australia v. World except for the finale.

[00:17:59] Um, and I could see how much fun, um, Pav was having. And I was like, okay, obviously she wins. So she gets a good edit. But, um, I was like, okay, I just need to go out there and let the camera see the devilish fun that I'm having. And so it was more of that, like self-reflection, uh, willingness to be a villain, willingness to like piss people off. Um, cause I was like not as willing to do that. Not as diplomatic in a manner of speaking. Exactly. I mean, like, I think people really don't understand what diplomacy is.

[00:18:28] I think people like conflate politeness with diplomacy. Like diplomacy can actually be quite, um, hard edged. It's just that, um, I just needed to be, and then one of the story producers was like, Mark, stop being like diplomatic and being like, I won't say which country, but like insert, you know, aggressive country X. Yeah. I'm like, be a bit more like that. And I'm like, okay, got it. Yeah. All right. So that was my headspace. Well, let the fun begin.

[00:18:58] Let's bring you into officially Australian Survivor Redemption. And let's start talking about, I imagine again, you hit the ground running here on the very first night. I want to start with your fellow returnee here in Brooke. Did you have any sort of relationship with her before coming out? Like, it seems like you were fangirling over her to a certain extent. So how did that end up building organically if it didn't exist prior to the season? Never met her before in my life. Never spoken to her. I've watched every minute of her on Australian Survivor.

[00:19:28] I've watched her on Talking Tribal. I've always adored Brooke. Like it's, it's, I mean, like I'm in a long, long conga line of people that adore Brooke. Like get, get, get the original mark, but yeah, never spoken to her at all. So the first second I got, the first time I got the look from Brooke was in the hotel. We were in the same chaperone group and, and, and we both had like smiley eyes, which is, which is always good.

[00:19:54] And I, we, we were doing pre-production shooting and I was like really wanting Brooke to know, I was really trying to figure out if Brooke was going to be on my side or if I was going to do a Simon or Harry. And I remember we were doing our photo shoots where we've got our buffs and I had like the green buff and then Brooke went and got her shot. And I had like a bag a lot. We're not allowed to talk, but I was like, oh Brooke, would you like a bag? Would you like a snake? You know, snakes, they're like lollies. It's candy. Yeah.

[00:20:21] Like we had like some, I had some candy and I was like, would you like a blue candy or a red candy? And she's like, I would like a green candy. I'm like, green's my favorite color too. I love green candy, but it's all gone. And so we knew, we knew we were on the same tribe, but it was this like playful, fun, cheeky, naughty aspect that I think we both really liked in each other. And so, yeah, then we got out there and we were both instantly ignoring each other.

[00:20:48] And it was just, I'm like, oh, we are so locked in already that we had like the playful, like we've acknowledged each other. We think we're on the same tribe, but as soon as we hit the beach, we just divide and conquer. And then eventually when we had our first sort of chat and they showed it, we're both like giggling, you know, like school girls and I am crushing hard. It's just like, yeah, we've just haven't spoken to each other for a couple of days and we're both like, yep, perfect.

[00:21:17] We don't need to, we don't need to overdo it. And we were like number one ally from that point on. And yeah, she was my number one. She said that I've been her number one. And I knew that my worry was if Brooke was not with me, I was touched because Brooke was adored by everyone. And I'm like the dude in the jacket. So like no one, I'm the Harry, you know, to the Simon.

[00:21:47] I am the Mark to the Brooke. Brooke is, and Brooke's always going to be looking for someone who will take her deep in the game because of her challenge beast reputation. So I figured I need Brooke to want me in the game. I'm going to have to put myself out there in order for her to like want to keep me around as a big threat. But we have to be smart. And I knew that Brooke this time, you know, she's now a mom. She's now got a partner.

[00:22:13] Her life circumstances had changed so much that she wasn't just going to like stuff around with me because she thought I was a fun guy to hang around. You know what I mean? Like her, like her, like she was so much more motivated. I mean, she's always been motivated to win, but she's just not going to there. She's just not going to keep me in the game for shits and giggles. So I was very much like, okay, let's figure out how to like make sure that Brooke just doesn't turn on me and punt me out, you know, which could have happened, you know. And so, yeah.

[00:22:43] So it all works brilliantly. And then I think we really solidified it when we found the idol together under the flag. And then from that point on, it's like, yeah, we're done. It's a little surprising to me that you said Brooke was your number one and hopefully it was reciprocated because the narrative we were led is that it was you and Faith from day one, Ruby Soho for life. So talk to me about how this formulated. What was it about Faith that had you immediately the first night be like, I want to work with you?

[00:23:12] Oh, yeah. Like that was the, there was a bit of tension there because I remember telling Brooke, hey Brooke, FYI, I've just told Faith she's my number one, but you're my actual number one, man. She was like, that's what you say to all the girls. I was going to say. No. So Faith, I think that one of the keys to playing Survivor well is picking your allies well and picking them fast. And I learned this last time.

[00:23:41] I think I picked really good allies most of the time. But Faith was, so I wanted to identify who were going to be the most cutthroat players and the best players. And I want them with me. And I think Faith, she told me she got really far in casting for Titans v Rebels. She almost got cast for Titans v Rebels. And I'm like, okay, that's good. She knows the game. She's already been through this process before.

[00:24:09] So she's like, she really wants to play. And she has. What I'm looking for is people that are confident in the game. Confident that they can like do something when, hey, for example, we stand up at Tribal Council and change the vote. Like I want people that will be dynamic in the game. It's going to be risky, but I don't think I can survive in this game, you know, without those sort of people. And I just thought that Faith was confident.

[00:24:37] She, like the way in which she described her quote unquote redemption story, which is like, I've been misunderstood and judged. And like, yeah, misunderstood by people all my life. And, you know, like she's, she's like married to a guy from Indonesia. She speaks Balinese. She's got these rock and roll tattoos on her legs, which we'll get to in a sec. But I knew like all of them. That's where the Ruby Soho name came from. She like the way in which she parents her kids.

[00:25:06] She just had this like self-confidence to me, which just was my number one thing that I was looking for. Oh, she's also got a devilish sense of humor. And I'm like, oh, yes. So it, and like, I remember on that first day, Faith was giving me shit already, which I just love. She was like, oh, I have to get like a ticket to line up to talk to you, Mark. Like everyone wants to talk to Mark. And then eventually she's like, oh, is it my turn? Is it my turn, Mark?

[00:25:36] Like, do I get to talk to you now? And I'm like, this is what I want. I want people like Faith to like, you know, like this is a personality. This is confidence. This is like chutzpah. And so, yeah. So then like on night one, or was it one night one or night two? I can't remember. It was Don and Caleb's also night one. But I pulled Faith. I literally like pulled her down to the beach. I'm like, we are talking tonight. And I just like laid it out there. I said, this is what I want.

[00:26:04] I want you to be my number one ally. I know she has a Ramones tattoo on her leg. She has a Specials tattoo on her leg, which is like a British band. She has another band that I didn't know, but I knew of. And she had a red Doc Martin boot. And in the airport, I was wearing these like big red suede boots as well. And she saw them. And I'm like, we have so much going here, like in terms of like personal connection and then my game. I think we have to work together.

[00:26:32] And she was like, whoa, you're laying it on thick there, boy. And I was like, hey, take it or leave it. You know, what do you want? And she's like, I'm in. And that was the birth of Ruby Soho. So yeah, so pretty instant. And Keely's the same. Keely was like slightly slower. I was in like a, I didn't have a good spot in the shelter. And then eventually I moved around to Keely's side.

[00:26:58] And she was, you know, that I talk with the cameras and mics are not on you, Mike. But she was telling me some stories of her from her background where she's worked and lived overseas. And it's as soon as she told me what she's done, I'm like, Keely has more life experience than like this entire tribe combined. And I've worked, you know, in Thailand. I've worked in Afghanistan. I've worked in crisis areas overseas before.

[00:27:25] And I know that being able to like regulate your emotions when under pressure is such an important skill in Survivor. And then Keely's telling me like, oh yeah, I've done this. I've done that. And I'm like, oh, we are on. We are on. And I think people really underestimated Keely because she looks like a goody little two shoes in her like blue, blue on blue on blue outfit. Like she was very like monochrome.

[00:27:51] But as soon as I heard about that, and we also had a devilish sense of humor. It was, yeah, it was very much Keely and Faith were, in my mind, the big cutthroat players on the tribe. So yeah, and that's why I'm like, okay, I want them to be with me. All right. Well, let's move over to the other side of the spectrum here. Let's talk about Johnson, the first of a few antagonists you will face. So obviously we'll get into the capo later on where you had working knowledge of her background.

[00:28:20] So were you knowledgeable about Johnson's background as well? What was this initial dynamic you had? Was he as opposed to you initially, as we will see throughout his time on the show? I've never watched Big Brother in my life. I don't, except for like season one, when like the person who actually beat Johnson in his season as a returnee one. But I don't, I don't watch Big Brother. I didn't know really like about Johnson at all.

[00:28:48] Tez had told me that Johnson was on Big Brother. And so then I was like, oh, Johnson, another returnee from Big Brother. Poor bastard. And so, yeah, I was kind of fanning those planes. But I didn't know that at all. But it was very obvious to me that Johnson had played a TV. He'd made TV before and he played one of these games before. He wasn't hanging back. He wasn't waiting around.

[00:29:15] And so, like, I was like, okay, this guy knows what he's doing, you know, and he's got skill and he's got, like, experience in these situations. So that was, like, good. I was like, okay, this is good. I like that. But the only, the thing that just, and again, I'm trying to make decisions fairly quickly because you're not sure if you're going to win that first challenge or not. I knew from last time, like, this can happen really quickly.

[00:29:44] I think it was, like, night one or two. So there was me, Brooke, and Kat were sitting down and we were just, like, observing Johnson, like, doing the rounds. But the thing was that he wasn't really, like, targeting anyone. Like, he was doing a lot of, like, chats. But it was no, like, he wasn't zeroing in his target on anyone to vote off. So everyone was kind of like, yeah, okay, I'm interested in, like, talking to you. But to what end?

[00:30:14] And so it was more, like, I think I like the idea of, like, being social for a strategic reason in Survivor. Like, you kind of want to be, like, nudging people towards someone. And I found it quite easy to then, like, nudge people towards Johnson because I'm, like, hey, Johnson told me this. Did he tell you that? Yeah, he told me that too. Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Right. Okay. And so you can just sort of, like, nudge people. And he's a big guy. I mean, big personality, funny guy, loud guy.

[00:30:42] I kind of wanted to paint him as the target, even though, like, I really thought that Keely and Faith were the, like, the actual big game players. But I want, but it was quite easy to position Johnson as the quote unquote big game player. And so, yeah, like, lovely guy. Like, really funny guy. Really warm. His family, like, the way he was representing the Assyrian people was really, really touching for me.

[00:31:12] But I knew this time around I needed to kind of come up with a target fast. Last time the Frankie thing just sort of, like, popped up and it was still one of my favorite, you know, tribals ever. But I was like, oh, I need to. I need to start nudging people quickly. And then Johnson just presented himself on a big on a big platter for me. So, yeah. But what's interesting is that as we get into this first vote, that big juicy platter gets

[00:31:38] swapped out for a nice side helping of Kat here. So we need to get into this because to say you sort of, like, kickstart, I think, a lot of the chaos of this season would be an understatement. So let's talk about this afternoon. So it seems like it's Johnson. It's Johnson. It's Johnson, especially from your perspective. At what point was there a particular conversation or moment where you start thinking, okay, maybe it should be Kat? Yeah, there was.

[00:32:04] So basically, after the scramble, you move into production holding and then you go into tribal council later that night. And I'm in production holding, getting mic'd up. And I'm thinking it through. And I'm thinking, okay. At this point in time, I haven't mentioned anything about ghosts. But I was sitting there like, I can't, I can't. Like, it's so weird to go back to Samoa to the same place.

[00:32:33] I mean, it wasn't the exact same tribal council set. But the beach was just, like, right next to Rebel's Beach and the Merch Beach. And I can see, like, it honestly is haunting because this world only exists on TV and in my memory. I have no photos of this world and I don't have any, like, part of this in my normal life. And all the crew and the sound people and everyone are the same. And I'm like, oh, my God, you guys just live in my nightmares.

[00:33:00] And so I'm sitting there and one of the producers says, they do it, they say this before every tribal council. Don't go in there. Like, this is your last chance to, like, save your game. Like, you know, don't go out. If you've got something to say, say it. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking a few things. Kat had told me in the scramble, oh, I'm not sure that I trust Faith. And I was like, nah, nah, nah, Faith's good. And she's like, yeah, of course you'd say that. She loves all the boys. Like, she's seen me, like, talking to Faith and Johnson and Ben.

[00:33:30] And that was a red flag, one. Also, Kat and Brooke were close. And that, when I mentioned before me, Kat and Brooke were sitting on the beach monitoring Johnson, I could feel that Kat and Brooke were getting along quite well. And I was like, oh, I am concerned that if we vote off Johnson, then Brooke is going to get nervous about my relationship with Faith because I've told her I'm her number one and

[00:34:00] she's my number one. And then Kat and Brooke will try and make a move on Faith. And then I'm going to be having to pick between Brooke and Faith. That's what was like my, that was like one of my main concerns. And that was sort of like the situation that I had with Titans v. Rebels where I had like, you know, like people were coming for my allies and I didn't really want to have to make a choice between the Middle-aged Mafia and the Vs.

[00:34:25] And then also Blanche and Ben, when they went to that reward, they got the flint, they got the fish, they got vegetables. And I was like, did they get an idol or something? And Blanche and Kat were really close. And the way that that scramble happened, it was really messy. And Kat was getting really messy. And I was like, oh, like there is a way in which someone could play an idol for Johnson.

[00:34:54] And I can't remember the exact maths in my brain, but I was like, I was adding up all of these risk factors in my brain. And I'm like, okay, obviously we can get rid of Johnson now, but then I'm worried about Kat and Brooke versus Faith and Keely. I don't want that. Why not just deal with the situation now? And I remember having watched Australia v. World that first episode when the Australia tribe goes to tribal council and George and

[00:35:22] David pull each other up out of the line. And I was like, oh, wow, that was a really cool moment. Like we could just do that. Like we could just do the David and George thing, but actually make it work, you know? And so then and there I was like, okay, my heart was pounding, Mike, but I'm like, no, let's do it. Let's actually just do it. And then I was thinking, who can I, then I was thinking throughout, how am I going to do it? And yeah, I didn't want to pull Faith up out of the line because I didn't want to expose my relationship with her.

[00:35:52] I didn't want to pull Brooke out of the line because it's the two returnees, you know, dominating. And I'm like, Keely's the perfect person to bring up because I think we've got a quiet relationship, but she is a stone cold killer as we have seen. And I think she's got like the gumption to do it. And then I'd already had Don, Caleb and pretty much Tez as well, even though I know he was close to Kat. I was like, I think that these, that the boy, I'll get the boys on board and we'll just divide and conquer.

[00:36:21] And so, yeah, so pretty much in the production tent, I thought about it. And then I'm like, I'm just going to have to tell Ben Johnson, Sally and Blanche nothing. Like we just got to ice them out and then we'll just have to deal with them later on. And I'm like, and Johnson's hanging around. We can go next or, you know, it could be Blanche or it could be Sally, whatever, you know? So, yeah. And then I was just like, but that was very much like my mentality. Like I was thinking, I came into this game saying I'm going to be cutthroat.

[00:36:49] I came into this game saying I'm going to strike first. This is what it looks like to do it. Normally you would like to do it potentially a little bit more quietly, but I'm like, nah, fuck it. Like, let's just put the target on my back and be a big shield. That'll be good for Brooklyn. It all just kind of like came to me in the moment. And yeah, so I did it and it was brilliant. I really loved it. I had so much fun. Well, what's interesting is that you make this George David comparison, but something that's notable is that they were both multi-season returnees.

[00:37:18] And you're walking around to these people who are experiencing not only their first season, their very first tribal council. And you were pulling them up being like, okay, we're going to change the plan right now. Even Brooke, the other returnee is like, we do not make tribal councils this live in our season. So what was their reaction? Did you think that you were able to like get the plan across the line once everyone got up to vote, just based on the way they were reacting to everything that you were stirring up? Yeah, I was pretty confident I could do it. And it's confidence actually.

[00:37:48] That's the way, the reason why I thought I could do it is confidence in Survivor is like a, it's not an extra vote, but it brings, it has so much value because other players that are nervous look at you and they go, oh, Mark's confident. Why is he so confident? Like he just, he must know what's going on, you know, and he must have the numbers, you know?

[00:38:14] Am I going to step, like particularly most of their first tribal council, am I going to stand up and oppose Mark when he's walking around with his suit jacket, like tell him, you know, like with this bravado. So, and I think, and this is the, this is the Boston Rob mentality. Like, I think like having that confidence, that calm confidence is intimidating as all. It's intimidating. It's so intimidating. And so I figured it was like a combination and I'd already put in a lot of groundwork with my relationships.

[00:38:44] So it wasn't like I was coming to these people cold. It's like every single person that I approached was someone who I had a great relationship with already. And, and Keely and Faith were obviously down for it because they knew that Faith was at risk from, from Kat. Brooke, I knew would be a stretch because she had to pick a side between Faith and Kat. But then like Don and Caleb and Tez, I mean, put Tez to one side for a second, but Don and

[00:39:13] Caleb were just like, oh, okay. Like, like, like they had no reason to, they had no affinity for Kat. But they had an affinity for me. And they were like, and the way I remember Caleb saying, like, the way you pulled me out of that line was at one point he was sitting down and I said, no, Caleb, you're in this too. And he was like, to feel part of the group is very powerful at that point in time. And to be left out of the group is terrifying.

[00:39:41] So I felt like I could get the vote over the line. What I was a bit more nervous about is how am I going to handle this when we get back to the beach? Well, yeah, let's talk about that fallout. What was sort of your sense as to how everyone was reacting? Because you even have Faith and Keely privately being like, I'm glad he did it. But that was a little much, wasn't it? Yeah. Like in general, this at this on the way home from the from the that tribal, this was like

[00:40:09] where my brain is going, okay, like the game has now changed. And this is going to be the foundation of your strategy moving forward. The foundation of your strategy moving forward is be the shield for as many people as possible. Be as confident as possible. And then if anyone comes at you, you just take them down. And I thought that so when we got back to camp, I like declared openly.

[00:40:39] I think I made some story about like, because I was a little bit nervous about what Blanche and Ben may have found at the reward. And I spoke about I was like, I didn't trust you guys. Didn't find anything. Valeria got voted off on this ridiculous twist when Raymond had his, you know, all of the votes twist. And I'm like, you know, like I was nervous that you guys have some sort of parchment. So we just had to change things up then and there.

[00:41:07] And that kind of like created like an alibi for everyone who was in on the boat, particularly Faith and Keely and Brooke about like the reason that Kat was actually the target. And then I was, but then I was just like, you know what, what a DF said, just crack the egg, you know, just, just break the egg and then figure it out. And I think it was good that we won quite a few challenges to kind of calm things down

[00:41:34] a bit because I think like Sally and Blanche and, and Banny and Johnson, well, everyone was like pretty like overwhelmed, like super overwhelmed. And yeah, we seemed to calm everyone down. But at the end of the day, like Don and, Don and Caleb were like, Mark's our guy. Like he's got our back. He included us in on the boat. Faith was like this returning to stuck his neck out on the line to, to take out the person that was coming for me.

[00:42:01] Keely was like obviously a bit more wary, but she got around. And I think Brooke at this point realized, okay, well, Mark is just like this big shiny shield and we'll go from there. And then I just had to do the, um, the other set went in on the boat. Yeah. It was fun. I didn't have, I thought it was great. Well, as you mentioned, you do get a little bit of time off from tribal council before you'll be visiting it quite frequently after the swap. But let's dive into then some more of these relationships because the next week, when we get into week

[00:42:28] two, this is when we start hearing about the corn ship cartel mafia. And I want to deep dive into each one of these individual relationships. Let's start with Don here. Uh, because I would love to find out when the two of you clicked. Clearly Don had a lot of affinity towards you. It's arguably the reason why he is voted out. And most importantly, Mark, as a survivor super fan, did you see the Rogers in him before he ended up admitting it?

[00:42:52] Uh, I think Don was actually meant to be on the other tribe with Caleb. I've seen there's a photo floating around that Don and Caleb were meant to be on the other side and it's meant to be Jackson and Rich were meant to be on our side, which is fascinating. You can't have two jacket wearers on the same tribe. That's what I thought, Mike. Of course. Um, on the same beach. Anyway, no, let's not go there.

[00:43:18] Um, so I think what you may not know is that I, Matt Rogers is not only is he a legendary survivor player, he is a legendary Australian sportsman. Like he played multiple, he played for Australia in two of our like top rugby codes. And one of them is called rugby league. And in rugby league, they have the best game of the year is Queensland versus New South Wales. They're two States.

[00:43:47] It's like the biggest rivalry in this sport. And Matt Rogers played for Queensland and he was one, he might be the second highest top scorer for Queensland of like of all time. He is so, so good. And then he eventually plays for the wall of the other coat. I love rugby league. Like I love it. Like as much as I love survivor. And so in my pregame stuff and a Queenslander has never won survivor, Australian survivor. And come close. Yeah.

[00:44:17] So like Lee Castledown's a Queenslander. Right. Famously played for the Queensland cricket team as well as Australia. Um, Chrissy, uh, Chrissy, not Christie, like Chrissy from blood versus water. Shay's a Queenslander. Jerry's a Queenslander. Oh, they had two chances at blood versus water in the final three. I know. Matt's a Queenslander. Um, like the list is really, really long of Queenslanders.

[00:44:43] I think it's a Queenslander that have like come close and never done it. And so my pregame stuff, they're like, what are you redeeming, Mark? I'm like, I'm redeeming Queensland. And I kept on banging on about Queensland. And so then Don shows up on the beach. And I think that I wonder if production like switched on onto our side to, to create the, um, for eventually for him to reveal it to me because it actually meant a lot to me. So, um, yeah. So anyway, that's just like a little intro.

[00:45:11] Don, Don, I did not know that he was Matt Rogers' brother, but he told me that he was in a, he told me he was in a rugby league, like a family, like a legendary family. And he said his name was Roberts and I'm going through every single rugby league player. That's last name is Roberts. He's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, nah, mate, this doesn't make sense. Like, I know, I know this sport, like I don't get it. Um, so like I was interrogating him about that, but I couldn't quite figure it out until

[00:45:41] he eventually tells me. But the relationship started on day one. So he was building the shelter, obviously. And I was, that's his MO. I was not. And I could see him getting pissed off at me. I think, I think, um, rookie or faith told me like, oh, Hey, um, John's a bit pissed off at you for not making the shelter. And he was obviously having a rough time out there. Uh, and so at nighttime, he went and laid down on the sand, which is the shot that you see. And I went down to him basically to kiss ass.

[00:46:11] And I went down to him and I was like, Hey, Donnie boy, let me sit up next to you. Oh, cause actually the first on the map at the very start, he said, ma, I loved your game. I loved your game. I've really liked your game. And cause he'd done a lot of study. And I said to him, mate, I really appreciate you telling me that. Um, like, I really thank you. Um, I'm sorry. I didn't help out on the shelter. I just wanted to like get, you know, have a chat.

[00:46:36] And he told me, he, he quoted a poem, um, uh, to me on the, on the sand. He was telling me about his mom, that she's very artistic and that he's a singer songwriter and that he, he would just like escape in his mind to write songs. And then he like quoted this poem to me and the cameraman is like right there as Don's gazing into my eyes, quoting a poem. And it's like the stars. I was like, this is romance at its finest.

[00:47:01] And it was, um, it was so cute and it was genuine. Like it was super genuine moment. Um, and I, I think I said, mate, thanks for the effort on the shelter. I know I was like, you know, I think, you know, let's try and work on the relationship side of things together. Like, you know, we can help, we can help each other out. Um, super genuine connection. Then he told me he played rugby league. I'm like, I love rugby league. And then eventually Caleb comes down. Oh, and Caleb comes down. And we all agree.

[00:47:30] Caleb and Don said it before me. They were all like, um, Ben and Johnson are like giving us the ick. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Good. And so then, uh, we came up with the Corn Ship Cartel Alliance, but it was predominantly around us all getting along really well. Um, Caleb likes fishing. I like fishing. We both have little fishing boats. And, um, it's just that kind of like, like I'm from a fairly blue collar part of Australia when I grew up.

[00:47:58] Um, and I'm some, I've spent a lot of time with the Dons and like people who like fishing and rugby league and all that sort of stuff. And so it was like, oh yeah, I can, I can get along with these boys. And then they were just kind of annoyed a bit by Ben and, um, Ben and, uh, Johnson. And I was like, yeah, they're annoying me too. Like us against them. And so we had like a division amongst the boys. Oh, and Tez, like Tez was sort of separate again, but, um, it was like, I could see that there was a rift between the boys on our tribe.

[00:48:28] And I was like, okay, this will be, this is good. Um, so, um, yeah. So Don and Caleb, that was night one. Um, yeah. And, uh, Caleb came along. We just sat down there, looked at the stars, that sort of human moment. Um, and, uh, and, uh, that's all we, that's all it took, Mike, was a poem and some shooting stars and some fishing stories. Listen, alliances have been built on much less. Uh, it's all about the vibes in the moment. Ab jetzt bestellst du à la carte.

[00:48:57] Und zwar nach Hause. Mit dem e-Rezept auf deiner Krankenkassenkarte und der Shop Apotheke App kommen deine verschreibungspflichtigen Medikamente direkt zu dir. Einfach App öffnen, Krankenkassenkarte mit e-Rezept dranhalten und mit dem e-Rezept-Rabatt automatisch bis zu 20 Euro je Medikament sparen. Auf Zuzahlungen und mitbestellte Produkte. Na, schmeckt dir die Idee? Dann probier's jetzt aus. In der Shop Apotheke App. Well, I want to talk about Tez here because he was far and away, I imagine, the biggest superfan on this tribe.

[00:49:27] So you'd imagine, like, he knows the most about you, which can work for or against you. You say at one point, as we get into this Johnson vote, like, he's giving this really odd, half-baked information. As you mentioned, he was sort of in and out in terms of working with you versus other people. So what was your take? Before we get into the swap and everything, but just Baron 1.0, what was your take on your relationship with Tez? Good. It was good. I knew that Tez was, like, he had it tattooed on his face, like I'm a superfan.

[00:49:58] And, and I, unfortunately for Tez, I think that was a detriment because I, I was trying to understand the motivations of each player. And I'm like, there's no way Tez, who tells us all that he's like all over Twitter and he's like a chronically online person, is going to vote off a returnee first. Like, he ain't going to do it. He wants, he's going to, like, he would, he won't be able to live with himself online

[00:50:26] if he is running an anti-returnee campaign. He obviously loves Brooke. I mean, who wouldn't? He said that he liked me. He had listened to the podcast that I had done previously. So I knew he'd like gone quite deep. And so, yeah, like I felt like Tez was always going to want to be pro-returnee as much as possible.

[00:50:51] But then, so yeah, I think that that was working quite well. I think I didn't realize that Tez was like not so pro-Mark up until we voted off Johnson. I think like before the Johnson vote, I was like, I think Tez is still my, like, my spy in the camp. And he was still providing the information. But then it started to get half-baked. Whereas Kalem's bringing me like 99.99% gold.

[00:51:20] So, yeah. So I basically saw Tez as someone who lacked the ability to make a move, but he could be like a conveyor of information. And so I didn't see him as a particularly big threat. But ultimately someone that I wanted to just like build allies. And then as I accumulated them, like vote them off. And so, yeah. So like, but Tez was like lovely.

[00:51:47] Like he's like, it's cool to like have a super fan out there. It was really sweet. And yeah, he was enjoying the moment of being out there playing the game that he loves. So that was pretty cool. But yeah, I just felt like he. Yeah. And the thing is as well, like Brooke and I were so tight and I knew that he was tight with Brooke as well. So I could like, I always knew that like my flank was sort of like covered with Pez, you know? Unlike Beth and Keeley.

[00:52:18] Well, let's get into this Johnson vote a little bit because it seems straightforward initially. As you even say that tribal council, like, listen, I'm sitting on my hands this time. No funny business. But it's clear that something was trying to be stirred behind the scenes. And I've heard through some various sources that like things are pretty much squashed. Like whether it was through Johnson, whether it was through everybody else, like once you end up finding out. So talk to me about your sort of headspace through the afternoon. Did you get a feeling that things were starting to shift? And did you quash that at all?

[00:52:48] Yeah, I felt something was up. I don't think I realized how the extent of it. But I think that I remember, I remember basically like I felt like Johnson was good. And I did. The thing is that I think everyone says, Mike, that Mark is like, you know, being called a dictator. The Mon Mark. Yeah. The Mon Mark. All that sort of stuff. And I think the reason for that, and it's a bad joke with pride.

[00:53:18] I think the reason for that is I learned from Titans 3 Rebels that I'm constantly checking in with people. Like I don't just like do one check-in. I do a lot of check-ins. Healy's accused me of like cloning myself. Yeah, she told me that. And Caroline said it in Titans 3 Rebels as well. Like she's like, Mark, there was one vote where she was trying to vote me off and I'm constantly moving. And I sensed when Tez told me that something was off, I'm like, oh, bugger. This is like a bad sign.

[00:53:47] And I went down to speak with Faith. And you can see it. And I think it's in the show. Like I'm like, something's not quite right here. And I remember Faith was like giving me like all sorts of negative signs. And it was very clear to me that she was not on board this vote. And I said to her, you know, come on. Like, can you, you know, I was sort of leading her to stay at a course. But I saw that Brooke was there. And I'm like, okay, I think Brooke's going to have my back. Also, Brooke had the idol as well.

[00:54:17] And so Brooke had told me like I might like flash the idol around at Tribal Council. Right, and there was that rule, right, where she had to play it or would have been taken away from her. Yeah, yeah. So she's like, if any, there's, if there's any funny business, Mark, help us play my idol tonight. I'm like, okay, cool. But I felt like in my later check-ins, I felt like we had smooth things over. The other thing that tipped me off to something that I was like, something else is going on is that I didn't get pulled for a one-on-one IV before.

[00:54:47] Like, I didn't get pulled for an interview before Tribal Council. And normally when you're either deciding the vote or the subject of the vote, you get interviewed. And I didn't get pulled. And I'm like, hey, that's not that. Like, where's my interview? And it was like Brooke and Keely and Faith and Johnson. And I was like, hmm, normally like the, you know, when, you know, like normally like if you're driving the vote, you're explaining your vote. And I was like, oh, that's a worry.

[00:55:16] Like, that's a worry because this is me voting off Johnson. I would have thought I would be like, you know, sticking the, like giving those final, final putting the sword in sort of interviews. And then, yeah, so that was the extent of it. We got through Tribal, but I remember Brooke after Tribal coming back to me and saying the girls were not on board, but I like, I got them on board.

[00:55:41] So I think Brooke did a lot of the heavy lifting with Faith and Keely, with Johnson sort of shooting himself in the foot as well. But it wasn't me squashing it. I think it was probably a combination of Brooke and just the group coming back together, heading into Tribe Swap, that sort of stuff. Well, you talk about heading into Tribe Swap. Let's get into this, Mark, because this is when a lot of your work gets done sort of by default because you just keep visiting David there. But let's talk about you drop your buffs. You're swapping over to a new camp.

[00:56:11] But you have alongside you Faith and Keely, who you obviously are close with and will become closer with. You have Don and Caleb, who you're close with. Tez, who it seems like you were like okay with. Sally, who we'll get into, did not seem like you were on the same page with. And then Rich and Lindell. What was your sense as to your position in this tribe? It seems like you lost your number one in Brooke, but it did seem like you had a good amount of people in your corner going into at least. Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:36] I mean like in addition to that, like I think before Tribe Swap, we'd been dominating challenges. And I've been really, was really keen to put myself in that clutch position for those challenges as in order to prove my value to the tribe in addition to like being a strategic player. And so then when we went into Swap, I immediately look at our tribe and I'm like, oh, we're stuffed.

[00:57:00] Like there's no amount of like throwing balls and rolling wagon wheels that will get us wins. Like because they had everyone across all domains. They had strength. They had balance. They had endurance. So, yeah, I was thinking to myself, we're going to go to a lot of tribal councils. I was thinking, okay, yep, Brooke is over there, but she's probably not going to go to too many tribal councils.

[00:57:28] And I'm thinking my best relationships here are with Faith and Keely. I remember thinking, oh, Rich had already spoken to Ty with me in one challenge. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. He'd already done it. And he didn't, which indicated to me that he was a fan as well. And so I was like, okay, that's good. Either that or he spoke only Ty in Survivor. They just hired this man to only speak Ty.

[00:57:55] It's been incredible that I've had two seasons with two other Ty speakers. It's interesting. And, yeah, so Don, great. Caleb, great. Tez, great. So I'm just, I'm thinking this is pretty good. And I remember obviously last time Viola got voted off at this point and I was thinking to myself, love born the hell out of Rich and Lindal.

[00:58:22] Because it's going to be a play for head office to swoop them up, make them feel really comfortable, and then just present a really juicy and easy target, which was Ted's. And so just, and we needed them to feel like that was a real plan. And it was the real plan. And, you know, because otherwise they're going to be really nervous. And then when you're telling the truth to someone, it really helps build that relationship.

[00:58:50] And so I remember just saying to Lindal, I'm like, let's get to know each other. Like, let's, like, let's, let's hang out. But also, like, let's just get rid of this Tez guy. And she was like, oh, you sure? I'm like, yeah. Like, and then we were all so adamant about that. I mean, I can't remember what Don and I think, I can't remember what some of the others were saying, but, like, I remember Faith and Caleb. Well, you seemed to turn Caleb and Tez against each other, right? Basically be like, yeah, the other one was talking about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. We did.

[00:59:18] But that was true for, like, for Caleb, that was true. For Tez, that was, like, when we were saying that to Tez, that's obviously a lie. But, yeah, so, like, the vote, I feel like we moved really quickly to stitch up Lindal and Rich. And so what I was really afraid of was, like, Lindal, Rich, Tez, you know, Caleb, Sally, you know, voting for me or Faith or Kelly.

[00:59:44] So it was really like the blitzkrieg on Rich and Lindal. And it worked. And I really liked them both. Still do. Yeah. So it's actually, like, it's an interesting thing because, unfortunately for Donnie, he was being so loyal to me, telling me that Sally was bringing, you know, voting my name. And it ended up just, like, unfortunately upsetting the plan that we already had in motion.

[01:00:11] And so, yeah, I mean, like, obviously that's why Survivor is a great game. But, yeah, I think that was my strategy, my mentality going into that tribe. So it was to keep building allies, keep building, expanding the network. And then, like, finding whoever I'm going to have to cut and just making feel like everyone was close with me. So I wanted Lindal to think she was close with me. And I wanted Rich to feel like they were close with me and that everyone else thought they were close with me as well. So, yeah.

[01:00:41] Well, that's how I felt. The one person that might be the exception to that role is the person that you do vote out in this episode or try to at least, which is Sally. So Don comes to you with this plan, right? And you're like, listen, I'm happy to flip things onto Sally. And we'll see this be a recurring thing. You know, you even say at one point to Faith, like, the best Sally is a voted out Sally. Talk to me about this dynamic. You know, was this always a situation where you felt like she was always gunning for you and subsequently you were gunning for her?

[01:01:11] No, I don't know, actually. Like, I really personally, Sally, I liked incredibly. She is such a nice person. She is so funny. We're almost like the same age. We're very, like, millennial. We're into nostalgia. We like the same music. I love her tattoos. She's a big Survivor fan. Like, there's a lot to like about Sally.

[01:01:32] Unfortunately, because Sally is so nice and so, like, well-rounded in her emotions, she is adorable to everyone. And so I couldn't really... The game I'm playing is, like, a team of Boston Rob game where I'm, like, asking... I'm asking for loyalty, whereas Sally is not, you know, she is, like, oh, you know, like, she's, like, a friend to everyone, you know?

[01:02:01] And so I couldn't get deep with Sally in terms of, like, a one-on-one one. Whereas Faith is, like, an intense person. She's got intense likes. And we can go deep. You know, Keely, intense, deep, dark humor. Whereas with Sally, she's, like, oh, daisies and sunflowers. And I'm, like... And cactuses. And cactuses. A few spikes there. But, yeah, so that was, like, I was just, like, I can't, like, convert Sally into a strong ally. And, yeah, also she grew up...

[01:02:31] Sally's from Wollongong. And Lyndall's also from Wollongong. Ryan, and I think Sally had said that, like, they were, like, they had friends in common, I believe is the case. Yes. Yeah, like, not just friends. Like, they'd been to each other's houses or something. Or, like, they'd been... They had really close ties. And I'm, like, oh, I'm putting all this work into Lyndall. And I see Lyndall and Sally chatting away about, like, oh, yeah. Remember that time we, like, went to this specific street in this specific suburb?

[01:02:59] And we had this specific coffee at the specific cafe? And I'm, like, ah! That's a Caleb reference. So, yeah. Yeah, so it was just, like, ah, bugger. Like, that's difficult for me. Nothing. It wasn't personal at all. But I was just, like, eh, that's a bit of an issue to deal with. I was happy to get rid of Tez because I thought that was really smart to lower my numbers and lower the threat to helium fate. But as soon as Don pitched that, I was, like, oh, yeah.

[01:03:28] That's pretty tantalizing. So, yeah. Well, it'll ultimately be the last pitch that Don makes here. You taught him too well, Mark, to know how to flip tribal on a dime. So I am so curious. From your perspective, were you detecting anything that Keeley was doing at that tribal? Did you think that plan was being scuttled? And were you trying to counteract anything as a result? No, I did see something.

[01:03:55] I saw Rich's face drop in tribal and I'm like, oh, that's no bueno. And I saw Whispers. I couldn't tell who was leading it, which is annoying. But at the same time, maybe it was just lazy. But I was thinking, they're not going to vote. I don't think anyone is here is really going to vote for me. So I saw something happening.

[01:04:24] I didn't realize the plan was changing. It's like those, it's a cognitive dissonant moment. And this happens a lot in Survivor, particularly before you get voted off. It's like you see something happen and you go, that's weird. But then you don't do anything about it. Definitely had that moment. Rich threw, like, Rich had this thing where he threw a parchment in the fire to say. Right. Like that he could eject himself from tribal council. So I was still trying to, like, figure that out. But I didn't feel personally under threat.

[01:04:52] But I did notice something was off. But then it was a blindside. It was an absolute blindside. I did not see it coming. And not only was it a blindside on me and Don, but it was a blindside on Caleb. We hadn't got back to Caleb. Yeah, I would say he was completely left out of everything. Yeah, he thought it was still tears. Tez. So, yeah. So not only did I thought it was going to be Don. Caleb thought it was going to be Tez. Don thought it was going to be. Sorry, I thought it was going to be Sally. And Don thought it was going to be Sally.

[01:05:22] Yeah, so it was a bit messy. And I remember, I think, like, I was the way I was seated, like, the arrangement. But Keely changed it at tribal. So, like, it just, it worked quite well for her that she could sort of get enough people on board without having to, like, stand up and move around or anything. So, but you know what? Like, kudos to Keely. I thought it was really cool. I really liked, I mean, I was sad to see Don go.

[01:05:48] But I could also, I'd also done a lot of heavy lifting to keep Don in the game at Baron 1.0. And, yeah, I don't like getting blindsided. But at the same time, I'm like, I would rather Tez have gone. But I don't know how I would have been able to maintain, like, the amount of work I was putting in to keep Don, like, focused. And, like, you know, like, the tutoring was like, it was an intensive course.

[01:06:17] Whereas with Caleb, it was more of like a summer school. And then, and then, and then with Keely and Faith, it was like a, I don't know. We did, like, one course and they were off to the races. So, yeah. Well, you mentioned it before, though. What was your immediate reaction to this? Because it was a strikingly similar scenario, right? You even mentioned on the show that you get swapped over. You think you're in this power position. Your closest ally gets taken out by your other allies. And you do admit in the moment, you're like, I'm a little boy. I don't like not getting.

[01:06:49] I don't know if you're in this room for it, but, like, what was your actual reaction at the time to this going down under your nose? Oh, I hated the fact that the same storyline happened again. And I had taken active steps to correct it. I'm like, okay, I understand. Have a lot of allies. Get rid of Tez. Like, I'm, in my head, I'm like, I'm learning. And then, you switch it up. And then, like, it's, it's karma. Karma's a bitch, you know? So, I copped it.

[01:07:18] I also remember thinking, like, I've been so outrageous in the, like, I've been so outrageous. You know, I'm right at this drive. And, you know, like, you can't get me. And, like, I'm going to, like, vote you out if you come to me. That sort of stuff. And so, then it was, like, definitely my turn to, like, eat some humble pie, which was probably overdue and from a viewer's perspective, probably, like, quite appealing.

[01:07:46] And then, but what I had learned, okay, this is really fun. And Keely and I have discussed this a lot. And I think it's a really interesting topic is when that happens to you, what level of, what should your reaction be? So, what should my reaction be to Keely? And I've seen, like, I've seen it in American Survivor post-40 and I hate it. I hate it when people come back and go, ah, you got me. Like, oh, no worries.

[01:08:10] And I know, like, I've heard commentators and podcasters say that's what you should do. Like, you should come back and be like, ah, like, no worries. Like, in a big group setting. But, like, that's not my, I don't like that. And the reason I don't like that is that I want my close allies to know that it means, that our relationship means something. Right. So, I'm going back to Tribe. I'm going back to the beach.

[01:08:36] And I'm thinking, like, okay, what level of, like, vitriol should I, like, should I exact? I want Keely to know I'm pissed off. But I want them to know that it's salvageable. I want, you know, and so, like, I want them to know that, like, they, I'm not just going to walk back into camp and be like, yay, like, you voted off done. It's all good. Like, I think that's too extreme because it's not real. It's not real. Like, they know that, like, Don and I are tight.

[01:09:03] And they know that I'm, like, a player that likes control. So, you have to, like, tell them, like, nah, I don't like that. Like, I get it. I don't like it. And then you have to find some way of, like, making it fun. And that's where you're, like, I'm a cranky little boy, Mike. I'm a cranky. You know, you have to find some way of being, like, I understand that I'm a needy control freak. But I still want to work with you. But don't do it again. So, yeah.

[01:09:29] And whereas Keely, when we vote off Faith, she's very much like, you know, like, we pull one out for Faith and all that sort of stuff. So, she's, like, more, she's more open to just, like, letting it go through to the Keeper. This is, like, letting it just, like, pass through. But I do know that she's pissed off at me. I know that Keely thinks that there was a bit, like, I had some gap in our relationship after the Don vote. But for me, I didn't. I was, like, I was, like, oh, yeah, nah, I'm good.

[01:09:59] It's, like, the relationship's fine. I'm told you I'm a little bit pissed. But, like, it's head office. It's going to run the show. So, yeah. So, I think that, like, it's a very, because the same thing happened when Viola got voted off. I had to be, like, I had to, like, I was angry. But then I had to say, like, let me sleep on it. Like, let me come back to you. And then in the morning, I was, like, it's all good. So, you've got to find a way to, like, express your anger, but, like, to let them know that you pissed off. But then also to be like, I can't wait and actually still work together. Exactly.

[01:10:28] Like, you have a reaction to it, but it's not, like, a non-negotiable, for lack of a better term. Well, you mentioned head office. We need to deep dive into this dynamic. We could do an entire, like, three-plus-hour podcast psychoanalyzing what was going on with the preview. Because this is when I think we really start to see, like, this growing. Antipathy is kind of a weird word, but we see a lot of Keelyan faith, right? This is where the comments come out. Mark's like a jealous boyfriend. We are the sister wives of Mark.

[01:10:55] So, were you getting a sense that these two were feeling this way? And that specifically also they were growing a bit closer seemingly over this? Yeah, I felt like Keely... Okay, hold on. First of all, in my mind, Bounty 2.0 is a hierarchy. So, we have at the top, head office. And then below that, everyone else. And so, like... But that's important because, like, what you're describing is the tension in the head office.

[01:11:25] Like, you know, Keely, Faith. Faith, Mark. Keely, Mark. Whereas I always felt that, despite the show saying that the wise women are a thing, I always felt that head office was in charge, particularly because Faith and Sally did not go along. Mm-hmm. And then... So, that dynamic is, like, a fun dynamic. But ultimately, the strength of head office was stronger than the... Like, we were, like, so strong compared to the rest of the tribe.

[01:11:54] And so, like, I had Caleb. Keely had Sally. Like, Keely and myself working with Rich. Faith and myself were quite close with Lyndall. Um... And so, it was more of, like, a... Head office is going to decide what's going to happen. But there's still, like, the power struggle within head office. So, it's like a two-dimensional game at that point, I think. So, it was always... There was never any doubt in my mind that head office would decide what was going on.

[01:12:24] But it was the juicy part, which is really quite sophisticated, is to see, oh, yeah, bloody Faith and Keely. It's the girl gang. Like, they, of course, are going to like each other. They're, like, more than they would like me. But I did feel... And Keely and I had a really good relationship as well, which is not true. So, we were both... And we're both really competitive. And we could see it in each other's eyes. It's like, ah, like, we're working together now.

[01:12:52] But, like, we're going to... At one point, we, like, we see each other as rivals and equal competitors, which is fun. So, yeah, I could definitely see Faith and Keely, like, having their little chats without me. And, again, just stay active in the game. And that's why they're saying, like, Mark won't let us talk to anyone, which is, like... I think that's where that comes from. But ultimately, I felt like they wouldn't... They wanted me in the game because if they get me out,

[01:13:20] then they are sitting ducks, I think. So, yeah, that's how I felt. And it was really fun. Like, Head Office was great. Like, we were having a great time. Everyone not in Head Office sucked. Like, it sucks for them. You know what I mean? Like, they were like, oh, my God, these guys are so annoying. It's like, yeah, not quite an even distribution of happiness on that thing. Well, let's get into the unhappiness you are soon to bring down on Lindell here.

[01:13:47] Now, the first thing that we get into in episode, I believe it's 10, or episode 8, is that you decide with Rich and Lindell, like, hey, let's do a little bit of a show. I'm going to wear your jacket and your hat. And, Rich, you're going to play the sad sap. You're just, you know, you're a lamb led to the slaughter. And that changes, seemingly, once you see him actually talk with the other side. So talk to me a bit about that. How did your temperament sort of change as that day on the challenge site went along?

[01:14:17] Well, the key to this, Mike, is I'm glad you brought it up, is Caleb was the target. So Caleb was the target for that challenge. And I didn't like it, but I had just lost Don. And so, bloody Keely's on a depower marker agenda. And I'm like, I don't want that to happen. And so, I'm trying to think through any way that I can to just shake things up. And, you know, I know in Survivor that, like, things can get shaken up quite easily. And then this concept of, like, wearing people's clothes,

[01:14:45] Caleb was wearing being Harry and all this sort of stuff, which sets off, you know, the Jackson and Caleb rivalry. And so, I thought, like, I'm like, oh, let's foster a bit of inter-tribe engagement. Maybe we can get a night off. That would be so bad. Even though Brooke, I was, like, always assessing from Brooke, like, at what point she was okay. And so, yeah, I wanted to create some sparks.

[01:15:14] But part of it was, oh, maybe we can, like, flip this vote. Like, if Richard starts to, if Richard and Lyndall start to, like, talk more to the other side, maybe we can pivot a vote away from Caleb. And, yeah. And then it worked. And it was, I didn't realize how much the other tribe was going to react. They really hated it. They really hated it. Yeah, like, the next episode, Lottie's like, you horrible man. Why would you do that to Richard? Richard.

[01:15:43] It's like, what am I going to do? Walk around camp and take his jacket off him and be like, it's mine now, Rich. Oh, so. And, like, the jacket thing had come up as well, like, in another challenge. Like, they were like, oh, like, Mark's got the better jacket. No, Rich has got the better jacket. So, I thought it was quite funny. But it really did, I think it was the second one, Rich went in and spoke to Asha. And then it was really confusing because, like, it was like we were trying to piece through,

[01:16:12] like, what Richard told us about his relationships on the other side versus who he was speaking to. And it was like, okay, he's clearly speaking to Simon. But then he was speaking to Asha. And we didn't realize, apparently, they had a good relationship. But we didn't realize it or he didn't say that at the time. And so, then there was just, like, questions in the minds of head office. And then eventually, I think Keely and I peered off. And I'm like, we're giving Rich a lot of power here.

[01:16:39] And then she obviously wanted to go for Lyndall. And, yeah, so my main objective was to try and find a way to get the vote off Caleb. And, yeah, I thought it was also funny that Keely and Faith were literally, like, strategizing in the challenge. And I think that that's one of the few times they could have strap chats without me, like, pestering them. The poor girls had to, like, find time. This is what you give for putting yourself in the hero position, Mark,

[01:17:09] is you allow yourself to fall off while you're working hard. I know. Oh, man, not getting the word puzzle pissed me off. But, yeah. Anyway, yeah, so we go back to camp. And I really like, this was an interesting one because I really liked, if Sally wasn't there, I would have been much more keen on voting off Rich. Because Lyndall and I were really, we had a good thing going. Yeah, you were just saying that, like, yeah, you and Faith are working with Lyndall and Keely was working with Rich. So it is interesting that you're fine sort of giving away Lyndall here.

[01:17:38] Yeah, it was like, for me, it's 50-50. Like, it's kind of 50-50 because I had a good thing going with Rich. My main objective was not Caleb. But I know Faith was like, oh, I really prefer to keep Lyndall and vote Rich off. And then Keely was like, I prefer Lyndall and keep Rich. And in my mind, I'm like, Caleb's safe. I don't really give a shit. But also I was nervous about Lyndall and Sally.

[01:18:06] And so that was the, for me, I like came down on the side of, I know this is giving Keely, this is like preferencing Keely's game over Faith's game. But ultimately I was like, I don't, then they knew that I'm like, I don't want to give Faith, I don't want to give Sally another out with Lyndall. Which really sucks for Lyndall, I think, because she was like, she just got caught in the firing line for no real reason. And I really made a point of going up to her at the reunion and saying like,

[01:18:36] we had a good thing going, I'm sorry. Like there was just like... Just you and Sally had a better thing going and that's why you had to... Yeah, yeah, Wollongong, bloody Wollongong connection. So yeah, that's kind of my thoughts on that. Well, you leave Tribal Council without Lyndall, but you also leave with a little bit of intel into Tez, right? Because you were trying to tell him from across Tribal Council, okay, vote Rich, let's get this split going. Tez tries to play it up like he did not necessarily understand, but it's clear he expresses to us that it's insubordination,

[01:19:04] that he's not going to be one of quote unquote Mark's minions. So how did your perception of him change after that vote, if at all? Going into that vote, I was going to vote Lyndall. And we were relying on telling Tez at Tribal to vote for Rich. And so it became quite clear to me in Tribal Council that Tez was not going to do that. And so then I actually changed my vote to Rich.

[01:19:30] So I was aware in Tribal Council that little Tez was an insubordinate, which is fine. He's playing his own game, of course, and we should all respect that. What was more like the nail in Tez's coffin was his inability to articulate himself confidently at Tribal Council.

[01:19:55] His airing of plans that you would normally expect a reliable ally to keep quiet. And then obviously we're obviously strong arming the hell out of him to vote for Rich, which is like an unpleasant thing. And he's decided to not do that. And so it's like, okay, well, I don't see what value Tez is bringing to my game anymore. You know, from the viewer's perspective, it looks like we're bullying him

[01:20:24] and whatnot, but we're each playing our own games out there. So that's how I see it. And then we get back to camp and Tez just stands up on his soapbox and just says everything. And like, it's just like, it's hard to play with a player that is going to spill the tea at Tribal, is going to spill the tea after Tribal, is not going to vote the way that you want them to.

[01:20:52] And yeah, so it's just kind of like, well, I don't know why we're keeping you in the game. And it was annoying. And I think Faith says like, Tribal Council isn't your chance to like write in your personal diary. Yeah, your personal diary, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not that's not the time to do it, Tez. The time to do that is to the camera by yourself.

[01:21:16] So it was very much like a unanimous feeling that Tez's goose was cooked. So yeah, he really cooked it. And he then struggled to, you know, like he pitched Faith and then ran to Faith and told Faith. Like, you know, it was just, it was just, he had no, he chose to try and like oppose us, which is fine.

[01:21:43] But like I didn't see where else he was going to go. And so from that, almost like from that Tribal Council, everyone had agreed Tez is going to go. Even Caleb was like, Tez is going to go. I think Rich was pretty okay with that as well. Faith was, had been dying to vote off Tez, I think, you know, since Baron and Keely didn't need much convincing either. And Sally neither as well. So yeah, unfortunately for Tez, he just sort of a combination of factors. The swap didn't work for him.

[01:22:13] And then, and then, yeah, he ran like all power to you. You want to like fight the system. That's great. But like, unfortunately the system like sort of came down on him like a ton of bricks. Well, for what it's worth, the system did provide some literal fireworks along the way in this next episode. This is a big cross-Tribal episode. So this is when, again, Lottie expresses to you maybe how your clothes wearing act did not go over completely well. But this is your first moment where you really start interacting a lot with Simon from our perspective.

[01:22:42] And it's interesting to hear that the two of you were kind of thick as thieves, because this is when you sort of start the storyline, right? Where Simon's like, you've got to protect Rich. Do what you need to do. And, you know, sometimes you promise him you will when you're actually targeting him. Sometimes that's actually the case. But talk to me a bit about that, because I imagine this was maybe not a crossroad situation for you, but this is clearly a relationship you harbored outside of the game that you have not played with necessarily yet, coming into contact with a game that you were building up to this point with a wide variety of people.

[01:23:13] Yeah, like I... Before I even played, before I agreed to come back, one of the things that I was really worried about in a returning season was playing with people that I knew. And, like, I'm going to do a humble brag here, but Lex, one of my favourite American players, like, we spoke about it. We became friends after Titans v Rebels. Oh, wow. Yeah, and we would, like, talk every so often and be in touch. And lovely, lovely man. Yeah.

[01:23:43] And I remember at one point saying to him, I'm like, man, I don't really know that it's worth going back. And obviously with Lex's history with the game, like, he said, you know, like, yeah, like, that's quite wise. Like, you should really consider, like, the risk that you will put your personal relationships under. Yeah, he has infamously said the game is life at that final travel council. Yeah, and so when I was, like, knew I was playing with Simon, I'm like, oh, God. Like, I don't know any... I don't know Brooke. I don't know Harry. I don't know any of these other people, but I know Simon.

[01:24:13] So I was like, oh, like, yeah, I wanted to play with Simon. And I knew that he would want to play with me. So I think there was a lot of returnee solidarity, like constant checking in. And then also, like, we can try and trust each other. My main priority was protecting Brooke. And so I was always, like, looking at Brooke tiny. The look from Brooke existed, just, like, trying to catch her. Are you good? You're okay? And she was like, are you okay?

[01:24:43] You're, like, constantly going to travel. I'm like, I'm all good, girl. Don't worry. And then Simon was like, obviously, I've already got the friendship with Simon, but I'm trying to ascertain for Simon. Like, hey, like, how's Brooke going? Can you look after Brooke? And he was like, yeah, look after Rich. I'm like, okay, yeah, this is fine. I'd also promised Loz that I would look after Lindell because of the swapped idol game. And so we were like, well, you should have thrown the challenge. Rich asked you to throw the challenge, and you didn't. So, yeah, she kind of answered that maybe.

[01:25:13] But, yeah, this was like a – it was, like, definitely, I think it's fun to do the cross-tribal thing. It's really fun to play with Simon, like, my friend in this way, where, like, it's the, you know, like, it's the cross-tribal post-swap dynamic is really, really interesting and, like, a fun thing. So I was always trying to support – like, I was trying to most of the time to, like, keep my word to Simon. I know that to Faith I say, screw Simon.

[01:25:42] Like, who cares what he says? But that's because Faith was trying to do that with Simon. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, Faith. Simon's mine. Screw Simon. Like, I'm not protecting Simon. I don't even know the guy. No, you're the only one that's important to me. You and me. I don't want Faith creating some alliances. No, that's my job. So, yeah, like, I was ultimately trying to keep that going as much as possible. And it's genuine. Like, it's genuine.

[01:26:11] I don't think Simon can easily lie to me in that situation. What was also really fun going into that tribal – into that challenge was the way that Ben – we're drawing the rocks and Ben turns to me and I'm like, you're right, buddy? And he goes, yeah. And he goes, Asha can't win this. And I'm like, ooh, okay. And then, like, I whisper to Faith, like, don't let Asha win because we might be paired up with Asha. Right. You just be able to check it out.

[01:26:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're all like – so I crossed, like, head office. I think I told Caleb, like – because Caleb was really tight with Lottie. Caleb had his own cross-tribal alliance with Lottie, which was also concerning. And he had Blanche. And so we're like, oh, okay. I kind of looked in Caleb to the don't let Asha win vibe. Anyway, Asha and Lottie sit out and we're both like – and Ben's just like, woo-hoo.

[01:27:08] And then I get up there with Jackson and I'm trying to help this make the edit. Like, Jackson's telling me, like, oh, we've got a good thing going. And apparently Simon was – I turned to Simon. I'm like, oh, yeah, so you're going to vote off Asha. You've got Jackson. You've got Ben. You've got Brooke. And he's like, how did you know all this? I'm like, oh, Jackson just told me. Yeah. So that worked out quite well. And then I was just like, I couldn't figure out who the fifth vote was on that side.

[01:27:38] And then at the fire-making challenge later on, I go to Simon and I'm like, hey, have you got a fifth person? And he's like, yeah, I do. I've got lots. And I'm like, okay, so if I win, Brooke's safe because you got the numbers on Asha, and then if you win, we vote off Tez. So, yeah, it was really fun. Like, I feel like we stitched the whole thing out. Like, I knew – well, I mean, we didn't know. If everyone had to vote, we obviously didn't know how that was going to work.

[01:28:07] But if there were separate votes, I was pretty confident that Asha was going home and I knew Tez would go. So you did not throw the fire-making challenge because you'll throw the show down with Simon a few episodes from now. But that was all you holding your jacket out to protect the wind? Like, this was a full 100% mark effort? Yeah. Like, I know this is a really boring answer, Mike, but I remember in Titans v. Rebels, one of potentially my only regrets is thinking,

[01:28:35] should I have put myself in fire up against Ferris? And so – but I remember thinking, ah, I've never made fire at Tribal Council. And so in this – To clarify, you would have given up immunity and purposely to get the votes onto you so it wouldn't be Ferris versus Raymond. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So – but I was nervous that Caroline could ultimately then just vote me off. But yeah. So again, like, the Titans v. Rebels saga is just so – I think it's like –

[01:29:05] it's really important if you're playing with returnees, if you can, to know their game because it's so influential in how you think about these things. And so I was thinking, if I ever get the chance to make fire at Tribal, I would love to do it just as a practice because I want to know, like, what does it feel like? What are the sticks? Like – and, like, how tightly wound? So those little, like, wooden sticks, they're, like, wrapped in, like, a little piece of cloth. And I'm like, I want to know, like, how tight is it?

[01:29:33] Should I just, like, yank the sheet there? Like, should I untie it? I didn't realize that there were different lengths as well. And, like, what sort of – it's a different knife that you get. It's not the normal machete you get at camp. It's a shorter knife. And so there's all of these differences. And the worst one is that the platform's really high. And I felt like a little T-Rex. Yeah, like, it's not in the U.S. where you're, like, sitting down. Like, you guys are standing by the end of it. Yeah, and it's the same final tribal – oh, sorry, the final four tribal.

[01:30:03] It's on a platform. And normally when you're at camp, you're down making fire by your feet. And so you're using, like, your shoulder and your back to, like, get the sparks. Whereas here, you're building it up high. And so then you're using, like, a different – it's a different body dynamic to make the fire. And so I felt like a T-Rex. I felt like I had these, like, short little hands. And I was like, oh! And then I got the flame going, but my structure was terrible. And then Simon whipped it out.

[01:30:31] And I did think – I did preempt the jacket thing. Simon's, like, getting the top. And he was like, why are you wearing a jacket? And I'm like, for strategic purposes. And that was why. Because I knew I wanted to do that. I remember watching Teenie and Sam, U.S. Survivor. And I was thinking, oh, that would be funny if you used your jacket. But, um, so, yeah, there we go. Just let the jacket stories continue. Well, I'm curious because there is obviously, again, a lot of crosstalk at that challenge.

[01:30:59] But one of the things that was mentioned was, oh, Faith and Keeley and Mark are running things over on the other tribe. And Brooke was running things on Baron 1.0. Were you getting a sense that there was this perception of you as this big power player brewing across everyone in the cast? And did that affect the way you were playing at all? Did I get a sense, Mike? They told me to my face. At that big group travel council, Asha said something to me.

[01:31:27] She's like, I can't remember what she said, but she was like, wow, we know you think you're the boss over there, Mark. And I was like, bring it on. Because I know she was cooked. I knew that Asha was cooked and she didn't even know. She's like, you know, you think you're running the show? And I just, like, taunted her. I was like, bring it on. I'm hoping that she would get voted off before she ever got the chair. But, yeah, we knew. And then Lottie's like, you're wearing Richard's jacket.

[01:31:55] And at this point, I'm like, I've made my bed. I'm just going to, like, lie in it. I don't really, I can't really, like, in a moment be like, no, I'm a really nice guy and I'm not running the show. Like, just own it and then hopefully figure it out later. So definitely we felt it at that group, Triple. Jackson and Caleb started popping off. Lottie and Asha were popping off at me, Faith and Keeley.

[01:32:24] They were getting really annoyed at Faith for, like, telling Simon that. Right, like, don't, don't be on the necklace. And, like, Cameron was like, why are you listening to her? And then there was something else, like, there was something else and it was pretty feisty. But it was mainly I felt Lottie, Asha and Cameron versus Faith, Mark and Keeley. And then it came up at that bluffing challenge when Lottie was like,

[01:32:53] oh, you know, you're working with Mark or for Mark. Right. Right. Highly insulting to Keeley because she's our own great player. And I remember when I, there was actually a bluffing moment with Cameron, which didn't make the cut. And I tried to turn it into, like, a pseudo interrogation. Like, so I was doing the, I was asking the questions and Cameron's there looking at me. And instead of being like, is it a dude or something?

[01:33:21] I was like, is your name Cameron? And he goes, no. And I'm like, okay. And, like, because he picked up on it. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like, are you a wannabe MMA fighter or something? And he's like, yes. And then I'm like, and then I get serious and I'm like, is Asha running the show over there? And Cameron flinched. He definitely flinched. And I was like, oh, that's a yes. And so we called, like, we were calling, we were calling,

[01:33:51] everyone was calling each other out. Cameron ended up winning that bluffing challenge, by the way. It was just highly embarrassing. But yeah, they did show it. Well, we go from a very simple vote to a very complicated one, Mark. Let's unpack this Redemption Beach Tribal Council. So let's start before we even sit down at the stools here, because it does look like, even if you say, like, the three wise women maybe wasn't a thing,

[01:34:17] it did seem like they were organizing a 3-2-1 to take out Caleb. Did you get wind of any of this before you went to Tribal Council? I'm so glad. This is finally coming out. So, no. However, I've played this game before, Mike. And I know how production works. And I know the sequencing of things. So I was pretty confident this was going to be a non-limination episode.

[01:34:47] Because we'd had three. So the first, so post-tribe sort, we'd had Don Lindel, Tez. No, no, sorry. Yeah, Don, no, no, no. I'm missing one. No, Don Lindel, Tez and then Asha. Yeah, Don Lindel, Tez. And then Asha was the, so like the fourth. So normally it's three and three, right? So Don Lindel, Tez, Asha. And then there's probably going to be two votes before the merge.

[01:35:13] And they never want, I don't think that they ever want the non-elimination to be the final episode of the week. Because they want to wrap up the story. And so I, so like I did not know it was coming. But I was also like, whatevs. Like I'm so confident. I don't want to be in a production. This was a non-elimination round. But I was like super confident that there's going to be a non-elimination and then we're going to vote on the next episode for something.

[01:35:42] I don't know what the twist is going to be, but that's going to wrap. Because we hadn't had a non-elimination yet. And we had been to tribal council so many freaking times. Yeah. So of course, like they need to change things up. I actually think that the way that we did the challenge where we were holding up the balls and then the joint tribal council, I think that that was potentially an opportunity for the other side to go to tribal council. You know, for Asha to get voted off and to like release some steam over there.

[01:36:11] So no, I did not know. I did not know that there was potentially a 3-2-1. But I remember thinking like we're due. We're totally due. I remember like feeling something was off. I remember Faith saying something like I'm going to change something at tribal council. And I was like, cool. But I also like if Caleb went at this point in time, I would have been blindsided. But again, it's not me.

[01:36:39] Like I wanted Caleb in the game. But I actually was still building something good with Sally. Like I just kept on trying with Sally. And so obviously Sally was closer to the girls in Faith and Keely. But I never gave up. I never gave up with Sally. And she did vote with us on the Lottie vote. So yeah. So in my mind, I was like, whoever it was, who were we trying to vote? Rich. I thought it was going to be rich. And I thought it was going to be rich.

[01:37:08] But then it was pretty early in tribal council when Dave's like, oh, this is going to be different. And I was like, yeah, boy. Give me the temperature check on Caleb at this point. Because you had mentioned him a few times. But you left him out of the Don vote. What was the sense of your relationship right now? It's clear that, as you mentioned, head office was your primary investment. But did you feel like your relationship was changing at all during the immense amount of time you spent together with him?

[01:37:37] Well, Brooke was my number one. Right. And then head office was the people that I was playing with. And Caleb, I didn't intentionally leave him out of the, like, he, I just didn't get the chance to tell him about the change in vote when Don went home. So I actually went to Caleb and was like, mate, I was actually trying to tell you. I just ran out of time. And I think he thought that was pretty genuine.

[01:38:00] But I do feel like Caleb was like, I remember there were, like, these conversations with the head office plus Caleb. And he's like, I just want to be number four. And then, like, he went and then Sally came up and she was like, I just want to be number four. And they were all sort of, like, pitching to be number four, which is interesting. So I feel like, I feel like from Caleb's perspective, he knew that I was prioritizing head office.

[01:38:26] But he knew that we had us, like, I feel like he knew that we still had something good going on. But I'm not sure. Like, I don't know. Because I think he, I think I was talking to a lot of people. So in his mind, it could have been confusing as well. Well, speaking of confusing, let's get into this tribal, shall we? Oh my God. So David makes this announcement and chaos. Yes.

[01:38:49] Because again, you had this plan going in and now it gets completely skeletal, especially finding out that the top three vote getters are going to go to redemption. So first off, luckily the head office is all sitting right next to each other. It was an easy confer seemingly of like, all right, let's just vote for the other three. But did you get the sense? How quickly was it before you realized that that's not going to be the case? That Keely's a mole. Yeah, exactly. Nah, nah, nah. Love Keely.

[01:39:18] No, I actually interrogated Dave a lot in this scenario because I remember, again, from Titans View Rebels, when Alex, when we sent Alex to the other side, I remember thinking after the game, oh, that was pretty stupid on my behalf. I should have really asked Alex. I should have put my hand up to go to the other side. I think that was like one thing I was like, I probably could have done that differently.

[01:39:41] And here I'm like, oh, maybe this is a chance for me to do something, you know, like maybe I can like go and, I don't know, check out Redemption Beach. So I was really asking Dave, like, what's at Redemption Beach? And what happens after Redemption Beach? And like, you know, like I was asking a lot of questions, probably to his annoyance.

[01:40:02] And eventually I think he said something like, like, it's like, you don't really, I think he, I can't remember what he said, but I was like, I got the impression that it was not good to go to Redemption Beach for your strategic game. He didn't say that you're going to come back and not have a vote. We didn't know about anything like that. Right. But after like a lot of questions, I got the sense that it's not somewhere where you want to go. And so then I was like, okay, fair, fine.

[01:40:31] We'll just try and get, at this point in time, I'm like, I'd like to keep head office together. I just want Sally to go. That's the easiest thing that makes sense for the people. For everyone apart from Sally, like Keely, Faith, Rich will all believe that I'm going to vote for Sally. So in my mind, I'm like, I'm on Sally. And then Faith actually did the maths.

[01:40:55] I don't know how she did it, but she had it like, she was like, she was like, okay, you do this, you do this, you do this. And I remember thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, that works. But it was Keely should have put her vote on Rich and then, but she put one on Sally, I think. So, yeah, but it was after a while when everyone like started getting up and I heard my name. And then I confirmed with Caleb that my name got out there.

[01:41:21] And I just went to Keely, like it's classic Keely behavior. Like she is her own, she's a badass bitch. Like she was like, oh, maybe we'll just chuck Mark out there. And I'm like, no, stop it, Keely. Leave me alone. Like, you know, and so then I just, you know, I led behind Faith's back. I was like, I said what I said. And then, yeah, thankfully she, no one put my, I can't believe no one put my name down, Mike.

[01:41:51] It's crazy. I was a sitting duck. I was an absolute sitting duck. I can't believe Sally didn't put my name on down there. But I remember saying to Sally, like, nah, I'm going, I'm going Rich or something. And because I think, yeah, because I think she thought that I thought the vote was going to be on Rich. So I was like, nah, it's going to be Rich. And then she looked away and I'm like, go with Caleb and Rich. I'm like, I'm going with Sally. It was full on. Yeah. So then what was your reaction when the votes came out?

[01:42:18] Because it does seem like things sort of defaulted back to the way they were initially what was pitched. The only exception, obviously, was Rich going rogue and voting for Keely instead. So what was your reaction besides, I guess, happy surprise that your name did not come out of the urn once? Well, I had to tell Keely. It wasn't me. Yeah. Was that you? I'm like, no. I'm not a mole, you know? And no, I thought it was really good play from Rich. I thought it was really smart.

[01:42:48] Like, it was good. Like, play your own game. So I thought it was really clever for Rich to do it. I remember sitting there thinking, if I go to Redemption Beach, I'm taking my poncho. But if I don't, I have to give my poncho to the three that go. So I remember giving my poncho to those three because I knew it would be rough. But then, like, because we didn't really know what was going to happen.

[01:43:17] Right. I was like, I got faith. I got Rich here. Those three are going to, like, go and then we'll figure it out later. And ultimately, I was like, okay, well, if Keely ends up going, you know, at this point in the game, I was like, oh, something's going to have to give fairly soon, I think. So it was sort of like, ooh, yeah, how are we going to manage it? But I was just really keen to figure out, like, what was the outcome of Redemption Beach? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:43:46] So did that change anything? Again, you're sort of lying in wait as to what's going to happen. Obviously, so are the people on Redemption Beach. But did this allow you to start changing the dynamic you had with Caleb, with Rich, just under some sort of assumption of, like, if they're not involved in anything at all, I've got to change plans a little bit? It gave me time to find an idol, Mike. Yeah. Because there was less people at camp. And that was awesome. Oh, my God.

[01:44:13] Like, finding that idol with faith, like, I can't believe how that happened. She almost, she must have, like, put her hand right next to it. And then I literally was like, there's just something about those trees. And it's in the edit. I'm like, did you check that tree? And it was just there. So that was incredible. I remember, like, I remember, like, trying to, it was weird because it was just the three of us, me, Rich and Faith.

[01:44:40] And I probably should have given Rich a little bit more love at this point in the game. But we were just, like, kind of tired. And we had a good relationship as well. But we were all sort of just hanging out, waiting to see what would happen. But, like, Faith and I were just, like, staying up all night, like, talking about music. And, like, we were, like, quite snugly close as well. And Rich was at the other end of the shelter. So it very much felt like a continuation of, like, Mark and Faith, like, you know, in the majority. And Rich was sort of, like, hanging around.

[01:45:10] And, like, I kept on talking to Rich and, like, trying to plot with him. But it was just a bit hard without knowing what was going to happen in the game. So, yeah, it kind of just felt like the game was on pause a little bit, apart from finding an idol. But it was, you couldn't do anything. Like, what are you going to do? You pitch a plan and there's three people on the beach and you don't know what's going to happen. So it felt like a little bit of a holiday, to be honest. Yeah, a couple of days. Why did you choose not to tell Faith about your idol? Was this representative of, like, the trust you had in her at this point?

[01:45:39] Or was it just, like, a rule that you walked in to the game in general with? Nah, I have no rules, Mike. I felt like I didn't need to. Like, I already had such a deep relationship with her. I was like, I don't need to further improve the relationship. And I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. And, yeah, like, I might need to use the idol without Faith knowing. I wasn't sure if I was going to tell Brooke in the future. Obviously, I did, which was good.

[01:46:09] But, no, it's just like, hmm, I've got a lot of heat on me already. I don't need any more heat. So, yeah, that was it. Just fine to say. Well, we need to get into everything that went down with this Faith vote. And you talk about, even at the top of the episode, like, we have such an odd relationship. I don't understand how she's so brutally honest to me, but still wants to work with me.

[01:46:34] And we get that in full force here, where she decides to tell you, like, listen, I know you want to go to the end with me. I can't reciprocate that necessarily. In fact, there's maybe a deal we all have going on where the returnees are going to bring you all to the jury and give you the luxury of having you crown one of us the winner. I need your reaction to this. How taken by surprise were you by not only what she was saying, but the fact that she was saying it point blank to your face? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:07] I really, really love Faith, like, you know, like out there in the game and as a person, like, we are really, really close. So I get it. Like, this is why I'm aligned with her, because she tells it like it is. So I wasn't that shocked. I wasn't. Because she was telling the truth. She's saying to me, Mark, like, of course you will say like, because I'm like, you know, seeking, I want to hear her say, I'm going to take you to the end. And I'm telling her, I want to take you to the end. She's like, of course you'd say that.

[01:47:37] Like, you know, you'd beat me. Like, that's not a meaningful pledge. Um, so that was, it was like, not that surprising. I think that it was, however, it like just hearing it was like, oh shit. Like, because I was thinking, okay, well, in what, and she says to me, like, in what circumstances would I take you to the end, Mark? Like, you're going to beat me.

[01:48:05] So, and she was sort of saying like, I need to have a few of my own moves in order for that to be a fair fight. And I'm like, fair, that's, that's, that's, I get that. Right. And then in my mind, I'm like, okay, so in what world does Faith do some moves that, and that allows it to be a fair fight? The way that happens is she votes out my allies, you know, like that.

[01:48:29] I don't see a way in which she votes off Sally and is like, oh, now we've got a fair fight going on, you know? It's like, no, that's what I would want as well. In order for Faith and me to like level up, she needs to vote off Brooke. She needs to vote off Simon. She needs to vote off, um, like any Caleb, um, which is what she wanted, you know? Um, so it was like, I get it, but I don't really want to like limp to the end.

[01:48:59] With you having just me starting the game really strong and you vote off all my allies in the end game, which is way more influential on the jury. I'm like, oh, like that doesn't really work for me. Um, the other thing that she said was, um, she wanted to target Brooke at the merge and Faith and Ben were really close. And I, I feel like Faith, Faith had said to me that she had told Ben, I'm going to take you to the end and beat you. And Ben was like, ah, and I'm like, that probably could have happened, you know?

[01:49:30] Um, so I had done a good job of concealing my relationship with, um, with Brooke. Um, and that was still in my head, like my number one chance to get deep in the game was with Brooke. And so I didn't want to get to a situation where we merge. I have Lottie, like Asha gone, Cameron, all these other people coming at me and then Faith and Ben and Keeley all targeting Brooke.

[01:49:57] And then me like having to like lose Brooke or then try and vote off Faith. And then who am I going to get to vote off Faith? Like Lottie, you know, Loz, Rich, like it's pretty, pretty tricky. Um, so I like, yeah, I was, I worked it through my brain. I'm like, okay, well, if I take Faith to the merge, she's either going to come for my allies or she's going to come for me.

[01:50:22] Um, and if we vote off eventually the way it works, if we vote off Faith, um, it's also something that I own. Um, it's my move and it's another move. Yeah. It's before the jury has started, but I think it's like a, quite a decisive singular. I mean, obviously Rich and Caleb are involved, but it's very much, I think, considered to be my move. So I'm like, and if I vote off Faith with like 10 other people, as we've seen, like, then it's not really anyone's move. So yeah, it was a lot going through my brain.

[01:50:52] Um, yeah, really difficult decision. Um, but once we kind of figured out the redemption, like dynamics that there would be only four people voting, I'm like, oh, we're like, we're on. Yeah. Yeah. Was this the first time you had legitimately debated getting rid of Faith or were there moments prior to this episode when you're like, I like head office, but we could lose one member. No, first time for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no.

[01:51:20] I was all in on, like I meant to when I, yeah, like I really wanted to go. So we're deep with Faith and Keely. And, um, it was when it was the four people voting, I'm like, this is the, this is, this is it. And again, like, you know, in terms of being cutthroat and a striking first, I'm like, again, you said you're going to do this. This is the time, like, you're not going to get another opportunity like this to do it.

[01:51:46] Um, I mean, I could have tried for Keely, um, but I thought, I thought, um, Faith was a better option. So how does this factor into what happens at the challenge? This is authentically you throwing it. Now, granted, there is this additional twist, right? That whoever loses, Keely and Sally will go to tribal council with them, but they don't have a vote. So was this a play to purely protect Keely? Was this a way to say, okay, if I'm making this Faith move, I have to do it now?

[01:52:14] What was the calculus that led to you basically dropping that basket as soon as one coconut got into it? It was heavy. Um, I think almost everyone on our tribe was throwing that challenge. So Faith was throwing it to vote off Caleb. Caleb was throwing it to vote off Faith. I was throwing it to vote off Faith and protect Keely. Oh, and Faith was protecting Keely as well, like in her mind.

[01:52:43] And Rich, I think was throwing it, like he knew that the throw was on because from Faith had told Rich, oh, we're voting Caleb. And, um, obviously Rich knew that we were voting for Faith. So everyone knew everyone was throwing this challenge for a different reason, which is absolutely wild. Given that Asha had just thrown the challenge and she got herself voted out with Blanche's island in her pocket.

[01:53:13] So, yeah, it was like, and I remember when we were divvying up who was going to do, who was going to do what. Um, I stupidly didn't put myself in the endgame position. And then Faith looked at me. I think it was like Caleb. I think Caleb was going to be in the endgame. And then Faith looked at me being like, no, we can't do that because we've got to throw in case he doesn't throw.

[01:53:36] And then I think I had to do a last minute switch of being like, oh, actually made up some bullshit reason as to why I had to be in the endgame. And then, yeah. And so then, so from Faith's perspective, she was like, yeah, Mark's on board throwing to vote off Caleb. And, um, and then Simon is there. And I'm like, mate, you've got to let me do not throw this Simon. This is the one that I need to throw. I mean, you don't hear what he said to Asha in that voting booth. You know, he was stanching anti-throwing at that point.

[01:54:05] I know, I know. But he, um, I think he did a good job of, of like conveying to his tribe how heavy the bag, the, I think he was being like, this is heavy. And I'm like, yeah, keep that up. Keep that up. Like, I need it. We needed everyone to think that, um, that it was kind of heavy. So, yeah. Anyways, yeah, we all threw it. But it was still pretty heavy. And we were so far behind. It would have required Simon to absolutely just throw the challenge in order for us to lose. Sorry.

[01:54:32] Well, now that you knew what the stakes were and what the circumstances were, you have Sally and Keely now back at camp. And you do have faith approaching you, being like, I know you want to get rid of Sally. Now is our time to do so. So did this change any of your thinking? Were you debating aborting the faith plan and going with them to take out Sally? I probably should have considered it more than I did. But I didn't.

[01:55:00] Like, I was in my head, I'd made up my mind. I'd got Rich and Caleb on board. And nah, I was like, I was locked in to faith. Like, I maybe should have considered it more. Also knowing, like, how the votes were splitting and everything. But I know at this point in time, I was locked in.

[01:55:25] And then I also had to, like, manage my reaction to faith because I was like, she was like, switching to Sally. And I was like, what? You know, like, in my head, I'm like, this doesn't matter. But I had to, like, give her the reaction, you know, that she was expecting. So it was like a lot of, I felt like I had to put on my best acting. Yeah. I don't know if I did that good a job. But yeah, I definitely felt like it was difficult when she was changing the vote to Sally. And I'm like, oh, that's so juicy.

[01:55:54] But I'm on the faith train right now. So yeah, it was tricky. But I do remember there was one moment where, so normally Faith and I, as everyone has noted, I'm a hugger. And so I normally would just give Faith a hug. But we did, like, a little fist bump or something. And she was like, we don't normally do that. And I was like, I'll bring in the hug, be in the hug. But she picked up this, like, this slight change in behavior in me, which I think is telling.

[01:56:23] That, like, just without, like, unintentionally, I, like, gave her a little fist bump. Maybe because in my heart, I was like, oh, like, this is really cold to give you a hug right now, you know? So, yeah, so I was definitely feeling it. I was definitely feeling it as I was lying to her. How do you look back on the move now? Not to say that, like, it's completely results-oriented. But do you feel if you had gotten rid of Sally here instead of Faith, would that have prevented anything that was going to happen to you in the next three episodes?

[01:56:54] I don't know. So I think that, like, I think that I saw risk in going to Merge with Faith gunning for Brooke and then also being the ringleader of the Faith, Mark and Keeley. Like, and Simon has said it as well, like, we were really perceived across both tribes to be running the show.

[01:57:18] And I remember, like, thinking sometimes you do need to, like, depower yourself so other people are like, oh, okay, well, Mark's not so much of a threat anymore, you know? Whereas if we roll into Merge, which is a big Merge, I forget how many people were there, and there's really only three of us, but, like, we're a big, powerful three. And that's a really big, juicy target. So I feel, I really wish Faith got the full experience.

[01:57:46] Like, that's what I, that's my honest feeling. It's like, I just, I'm, I just, she deserves, she deserves to sit there at the final. Like, even, you know, she deserved to be on the jury, you know, at least. So that's the thing that, that, that sucks is just more as a friend that she didn't get to have that experience. Yeah, talk to me more about that, because you do mention in this episode, like, the difficulty that can come in involving emotions in a game, that it can be complicated and messy.

[01:58:13] What was it like for you to, despite the fact that this is your returning player, you want to play this big cutthroat game? I can imagine this was tough for someone that you had gotten really close to, played every single day of the game with, as you mentioned on the show, to turn on her so suddenly in this moment. Yeah, it was. And also, like, there's the, I think, you know, you see the greats do it.

[01:58:36] They, they go deep personally, you know, but they can, like, they can, like, snorkel their way back up to the surface when they need to. And I feel like at this point in the game, I was really deep with faith in terms of, like, how close we were as friends and, like, how we, like, comforted each other. And so, like, I knew I had to come back for air from the game. And, but, like, it's kind of like you get the bends when you go up. Like, it does hurt a bit.

[01:59:05] And it hurt a lot. So, I think it was just, like, the way in which it happened as well because I knew it was so juicy. I knew it was so juicy, which is tantalising and exciting. Like, the way we actually had the Operation Wave set up where we all said, I actually, in that Tribal Council, initiated saying that, like, you've just got to find who's on the right wavelength with you.

[01:59:29] And then that was the indication for Richard and then Caleb to each say the word wave in a confessional, in there, sorry, at the Tribal Council. So, like, this is really exciting. I'm like, oh, my God, this is really fun. Like, we're going to do this. But at the same time, I'm, like, I'm, like, really sticking the knife in to a friend. So, yeah, I think it's just the Jekyll and Hyde nature of Survivor that you, it just, yeah. And we'd been to so many Tribals, so there was nowhere to hide.

[02:00:00] So, yeah, it was definitely hard. And I remember, like, yeah, it's, like, the camp felt different without Faith there. You know, she was, everything felt different after she left, more than anyone else. You mentioned Kili's reaction before. Did it surprise you at all? Were you anticipating a lot of anger considering, yes, getting rid of Dawn is one thing, but this was someone who was so closely linked with the two of you?

[02:00:25] Yeah, she, I think she did a pretty good job of saying to me, the thing that I found most persuasive that Kili said, oh, no, hold on, but when we got back to camp, it wasn't clear what had happened. Right. Because Sally and Kili didn't actually understand because I think in their mind, me and Faith had voted for Sal and then. That's what Faith thought, right? That's why she's, like, pleading to Rich, like, please flip your vote.

[02:00:54] Yeah, yeah. And so then I had to sort of, like, tell Kili and Sally, like, just so you know, that was, like, that wasn't, like, a mistake. That was, like, by design. And so I don't know if Kili had realized that or not on the way back. She was obviously just pissed off. But what she had said was, and maybe it was the next morning she had said, that obviously sucks and it hurts. But I think it is actually a good move for me, Kili. Like, it actually helps me.

[02:01:22] And she had said that, Rich, and I put this, this may not be true, I don't know, but she had said that Rich had put a seed in her mind to say, you should consider a future without faith because it is a big target. You three are a big target. And maybe you might want to reduce that target. Now, that might be just Kili telling me what I want to hear, which is definitely what I wanted to hear. But, yeah, I did get the sense that Kili was kind of thinking, like, all right, I've still

[02:01:50] got Rich, I've still got Mark, I've still got Simon, I've still got Brooke. And I didn't really see a world in which Kili would shit in her hands and clap, you know. So I felt like she was having a lot of fun playing with me. So, yeah, but I, yeah, she played it pretty well. And, like, the poor one out, the poor one out moment with Kili was, like, I thought was, like, just because it was, like, fun, it was sassy, it was a little bit dark, but there

[02:02:19] was, like, some heartfelt there. So, yeah, I thought she handled it perfectly. All right. The merge has arrived here. So you finally are able to get Brooke back. You're able to finally sort of settle all of your affairs across multiple tribes. So what was sort of your lay of the land? Who did you feel like you were tight with this first day that you get settled in on the beach as a teaming group of 13?

[02:02:47] Yeah, immediately reconnect with Brooke and tell her I have the idol. It just came out of me. I couldn't help myself. I'm like, Brooke, I got an idol! And she's like, oh, my God! And then Simon popped out. I mean, it's also fair considering that she brought you in on her idol. Oh, yeah, but, like, we're now at the merge. And, you know, I am running around, you know, beating my chest and all this sort of stuff. So, no, I wanted her to know. So I told – I wasn't sure and then I just did it. And then Simon popped up.

[02:03:16] I'm like, no, I'm not telling Simon just yet. But so obviously Returnee strong. I don't know. Like maybe – like I just couldn't do anything. Like there was no way I was going to, like, break that. It was just too strong, I think, that trio. I felt like Healy was good with me. I'm also like there was a lot of people at that merge. And there was kind of like we ran out of space in the shelter.

[02:03:43] And so Healy and I went and slept underneath the torches, underneath the big tree. And so we were out there, like, cackling away at nighttime, talking – we went through the tribe systematically of terms of, like, who we wanted to work with and who we didn't. Again, I really wanted to get to know the people that I didn't know. So there was Lottie and Cameron. And Jackson I'd sort of chatted with on the mat. And Loz had come to the overnight stay previously.

[02:04:10] So I was really taking the time to get to know Lottie. And I tried with Cameron. It was a little clunky. But, like, I felt like I had a better thing going with Lottie. And then I kind of felt like I was always – and Sally and I had still been saying to each other – because the – oh, that's right. When Faith went home, Sally was the – Faith's plan, right? Yeah.

[02:04:40] And so I was like to say, I'm like, mate, like, I'm saving your ass, you know? You're welcome. I was like, I didn't vote you out, man. And she was like, whoa. But she'd just gone through the Redemption Beach thing. And I think she had her own, like, epiphany out there. But I was still trying to find a way in which Sally and I could do the, you know, like, we're so unlikely to work together, we're going to work together kind of thing.

[02:05:06] And I thought that there was some genuine stuff to that as well. So, yeah. So in my mind, I'm like, okay, big bunch, big travel council, hard to navigate the boat. And I learned, again, from Titans v Rebels, Kitty was bloody going home except Scott quit. And so I was like, all right, I know how hard it was to, like, rally that boat. So I know I'm going to have to do some work here. But we just got to figure out our target.

[02:05:33] And so Caleb and Lottie had their, like, we didn't see this at all, but Caleb and Lottie. Caleb was dying to play with Lottie. And Caleb was dying to play with Blanche. And so it was like, ooh, that's dangerous there. And then Keely was keen on Lottie. And Simon and Keely on that, we saw it in the episode. Like, they were like, oh, yeah, let's go Lottie. And I was like, I think that works for me. But I wanted to keep the relationship up with Lottie just to see.

[02:06:02] And then they were targeting Jackson. And I was like, oh, I could see Jackson and Ben working together well. So, yeah, I was just, like, plotting out the tribe. And I'm like, nah, I'm happy to go with Lottie. I don't see Lottie prioritizing me over the newbies. That was ultimately, I'm like, okay, we've got a good thing going. It turned out quite useful to, like, set up the blind side because Lottie and I, like, were talking quite strategically.

[02:06:28] But I was like, yeah, I think she's not going to be, like, very loyal to me. And then Simon was cutting another ally. And I'm like, okay, that seems pretty good for, like, Simon, sort of, like, for me, vis-a-vis Simon in the eyes of the tribe. So, yeah, this is how your brain works, Mike. It's like you're out there and you're like, it's like a freaking network. And you're like, oh, who's with who? And who, if I get rid of this person, then, like, who does it advance?

[02:06:56] But also, who does it, like, bring down, you know? Yeah. I know that Loz and Rich, oh, yeah, this is what I also want to say. Yeah. So, this is where, like, Loz, Rich and me and Simon and Brooke and Keeley were all bringing this, like, conversation together. Loz was sometimes there, but Loz wanted Jackson gone. And we didn't really go for it. And I remember having a terrible conversation with Loz where I was way too rude to her.

[02:07:24] I was just like, I said to her, Simon said, we've got to give Loz time to mull over a boat. I'm like, okay, cool. You know how Loz works. You do that. And so, I mentioned to Loz, hey, like, I heard you spoke to Simon about voting on Flotty. Like, let us know. And she took a bit of time to reflect on that. And then we just whipped the boats into shape anyway. And I remember going to Loz. I was like, mate, like, we'd love for you to come on board, but the boats are there.

[02:07:53] And I remember in that moment, I thought I was doing the right thing. But as soon as I said, oh, my God, you're an idiot, Mark. Like, that is basically this, you've just told this person, oh, yeah, I want to work with you, but you can put your boat in. And I think that, I think that, like, put in motion Loz sort of thinking, oh, I have no agency in this group, which is true. She did not have much agency.

[02:08:19] What was so surprising to us is that this merge vote seemed like, okay, it's the perfect merger of Beauty and the Beast and head office vis-a-vis also like these, this, boomerangs returning situation as well. And then that is going to immediately change. Did you think this was a stable majority or did you always have the sense all the way back to, you know, Caleb crowing it at that tribal council he attended? Like, oh, no, they're going to come out for returning blood at some point.

[02:08:50] Um, I think that, like, I was the victim of my own success in this regard. Like, we, I've done so well of, like, being in control. I think the easiest, you know, the best predictor of the future is, you know, well, it's not, but, like, you know, the simplest predictor of the future is the current state. And so I wasn't expecting such a big change, particularly from Ben and Loz. I think Loz really got a, I think, like, you know, you're always doing your interviews

[02:09:19] and the production's asking you, like, well, how are you shaping your game? How are you advancing your game? And I think at this point, Loz, I think that when you get asked those questions, it's like, well, how am I doing that? You know? And I think that, like, the cold side of really turning for someone like Loz, um, because Richard was the one that was working with, had been working with me and Keely. It wasn't really Loz. Um, so I think it was a combination of Loz, like, a combination of all of them, to be honest.

[02:09:49] Like, I think they all were like, oh, yeah, well, we don't know about this. And then Ben all of a sudden, like, you know, discovers the Durag Devo and, um, you know, they all sort of, like, coalesced around it. Um, so it happened quickly. And also because the target was Blanche, like, I thought, like, that was, like, a, a very easy move. And, um, you know, like, it's a good move for me because it separates Caleb from Blanche.

[02:10:18] And so maybe, like, yeah, I think maybe when you know that there's an easy move on offer, like the people like Ben realize, oh, actually, now it's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting. So, yeah. As you mentioned, you do leave Caleb out of this Lottie vote. And we continually hear him talk about, like, I don't love feeling like this. I mean, were you, did you feel something changing? Because obviously this was not the first time that you left him out of a plan that you were a part of. Yeah, it was hard.

[02:10:48] I remember thinking when we voted off Lottie, like, ah, man, Caleb's going to be pissed. Um, and I probably should have looped him in. I kind of probably should have looped him in. If I looped him in, it's risk of an idle play, risk of, I don't know that Caleb's going to blow up the tribal at that point in the game. Well, maybe if I whisper to him in tribal or something. So, yeah, I knew, I knew that after that tribal council, I knew he was really pissed.

[02:11:15] But I felt like I was hoping that that could push him towards going from Blanche as being like picking a side. Um, uh, yeah. I mean, like, yeah, ultimately, Mike, like I'm running out of runway here. You know, like there's only so many, only so many people you can like, you know, blindside or leave out of a vote so many times. And so it's kind of like, I think the consequence of playing this sort of game was playing.

[02:11:43] Let's go back to Ben here. This was out of nowhere to us. Just from a characterisation perspective. How out of nowhere was this to you? Like, what was your dynamic with Ben before this post-murse situation? And did this then take you by surprise when he's, you know, announcing his spot remover at tribal council when he's voting for you a couple times? Oh, Ben's great. I think, I think Ben would be a fantastic returnee. Um, I think he's perfect for it.

[02:12:10] Um, at the start, Ben and I got along really well, uh, at Baron 1.0. Um, we just, I thought for me, like we got along extremely well. And I remember after, um, Kat went home, he was sort of indicating to us, he was like, I thought I was on a good ship with Johnson. And then you guys just came in on a big bloody, like barge, and just pushed us all out of the way.

[02:12:33] So Ben knew that, um, we had told Ben that Johnson was going home and I was starting, I was trying to create the Faith Me and Ben trio. But then I felt like Faith and Ben were like prioritising each other in that. Um, but yeah, we had a good thing going, but I never saw the same level of vigour in Ben's eyes. And then, um, he really just dialed it up a notch.

[02:12:57] Maybe it's like the Lottie shirt, you know, he started wearing the Lottie shirt, the do-rag came out and like something took hold of him. It was definitely noticeable. But at the same time, it was kind of like, I feel like Ben was always, I feel like that was always in Ben. He just needed to find the time to do it, you know? Uh, and then the moment arrived and, and, and Ben like sort of met the moment. So yeah, it was, it was cool. It was really, like, it was so noticeable. It was so noticeable.

[02:13:22] Um, but yeah, I feel like Ben, he's got the, he's a One Piece fan and he's got the One Piece tattoos all over him. And I think he just kind of lent into like a One Piece character sort of frame of mind. And that made sense. Well, let's talk about everything that went down in this wild, the first of many wild post-merge votes here. So we get a sense from the edit that you are sort of clued out of everything that's coming your way until Brooke, you mentioned the Brooke look.

[02:13:53] She gives you that one glance and you know that you might be in danger. How accurate is that? Did you get a sense of some, you know, other conversations or otherwise during the day that the tide was turning against you? No, no, it was super late. And I think it, I remember seeing late in the scramble, a weird bunch of people, um, go behind a tree to talk. And I was like, hmm, that's no bueno. That's not good. And then I knew, but I knew Brooke was in it.

[02:14:20] And so I was like, okay, Brooke will tell me what's going on there. And then, and then like basically it was wrapping scramble. Um, and Brooke came out and we looked, she was like, yeah, you're one of Sally's cactuses, mate. You're, you're, you're up shit creek. But she knew that I had the idol. Um, so yeah, it was really, really late in the scramble. Like basically as the scramble was ending, that's when Brooke like indicated to me, yeah, you're, you're in trouble.

[02:14:47] And so then I went into my pre tribal council, um, interview being like, oh, I thought I was good, but I'm not. Uh, I got the look from Brooke and I've got my idol and I'm just going to have to figure it out at tribal council. But I didn't know anything. I was like, is it Simon? Has Simon turned on me the bastard? Or is it, I didn't know like who was the ringleader.

[02:15:13] Um, I was actually a bit, for some reason I got in my head that it could have been Simon. Um, so going into that tribal council, I was just like, all antennas were up. I was just like on guard. My heart was racing. I knew I had my idol, but I still needed to play it correctly. And this huge tribe. Um, and so as soon as I got into tribal, pretty much that tribal was a live tribal.

[02:15:36] As soon as we stepped forward to the ring, it was, it was the most epic tribal I've ever been a idol by a country mile. Well, probably helps that maybe as a bit of a make good Simon looks at you and says like, here, take this and hands you this coral idol. Having no idea that you have a real idol. Talk to me about how you incorporated that into your calculus. Were you immediately like, I could pull a brook and keely and do a fake in a real one?

[02:16:00] Or are you just deciding, okay, let me really try to pass this off as the real thing and hope I get out scot-free without having to pay my play my real idol? Yeah. I wanted to not play my idol because I needed protection as long as possible. Right. Um, I've got heat on me and I'm like, if I can get away with not playing my real idol, then that's really, really good. Also, like, um, I'm like, I'm not a challenge beast, but I'm like, I'm not shabby in challenges.

[02:16:30] You won two of the last three immunity challenges, you know? Count yourself out. Yeah. And you never know who's going to win. Like as Keely, you know, like Keely, she locks in and like you, like, I'm not saying that to just Keely. I think Keely's fantastic. Like people have skills and attributes that you just don't know what's going to align to a challenge. So I'm like, just every, every step I can get through without paying my idol is going to be really important.

[02:16:53] I, Brooke told me very early on that Ben was the ring leader and I'm like, okay, good. I can trust Simon. Simon then hands me the idol unprompted. I didn't ask for it. He gives it to me and I'm like, oh, okay. And he like, he stuffs it in my, um, my suit jacket pocket and I'm like, okay. But when he did it, no one really saw it. So then I'm thinking, okay, Ben is the ring leader.

[02:17:21] And Brooke had said, um, we are trying to get the votes onto Ben. And at that point I'm like, okay, that's, that's, I like that. Like the sound of that. Um, and then I've got my, uh, this fake idol, Simon's fake idol. Um, and then, but literally we're all running around. Like, I think Simon goes to Simon's like, we were talking to Blanche and I'll go up to Blanche. I'm like, Hey mate, uh, I know I was trying to vote you off, but, uh, any chance you could vote for Ben? She was like, yeah, it's fake to me all day, Mark.

[02:17:50] And I'm like, yeah, sorry about that. And, uh, and like everyone, it's like, everyone's up. It's full on. And Simon and Rich are going, like Simon and Rich are saying, Hey, come on, like, let's, let's vote off Ben. Ben, I go to Rich, mate, let's vote off Ben. I go to Loz, like, let's vote off Ben. And I think, um, at one point, uh, I don't know if it was at this point yet or not.

[02:18:15] It's a very blurry, but like, um, I remember Rich and Loz are like counting votes on their fingers. And I'm like, it's not that hard guys. Like there's 12 people here. Six is a good, six is a pretty big number, you know, and we've been discussing this for so long. So things are starting to get a bit shonky. And then I remember thinking, well, maybe if I just go to Ben and see if we can like, just get Ben to change his mind.

[02:18:42] And so that's when I go off and have, oh, that's possibly my favorite moment of this tribal council is standing up and going to Ben and having the showdown. I'm like, why have you done to this, my boy? Yeah. Yeah. And so then he, Ben was in the, he was locked in. He was in the zone and he's like, you know, like, time is calm. We'll be friends on the outside. And I'm like, well, you may have, you may have just cooked yourself.

[02:19:06] Like, I know, and this is part of like the, the mentality that I had, the boss and Rob mentality is like, have confidence, intimidate, you know, try and use anything that you can to get extra power. And, you know, like, I don't normally talk to people like that, but I was like, mate, just cooked your own goose. And then I show that's at that point.

[02:19:27] I'm thinking, okay, let's try and attract the votes onto me by showing a fake idol in a way, which is like, makes them think that it's a fake idol. I don't really know how I did that, but, but like, that was the idea. I'm like, show the fake idol. And Ben goes to me, why would you show, I showed it to him after we had that chat. And he goes, why would you show that to me now? Like, you could have just played it and saved yourself. And I'm like, oh, like, you know, survivor, mate, blah, blah, blah.

[02:19:55] And then Simon had told Rich that I had the fake idol. And so I think, I think like there was like this beautiful, I could feel the votes coalescing onto me as a result of the fake idol, which was just perfect. And then Simon goes to me, all right. Like, oh, and then, but then Simon, he goes up to Rich one last time and Simon comes back and he says, the ship is sailing, mate. Like, they're not with us.

[02:20:22] And Brooke turns to me and she says, Mark, I think you need to tell Simon about the real idol. And I have it stashed in my jacket with the chain hanging down. And I show Simon, I'm like, man, I've got a real one. I'm playing it for myself. I tell Keely. And I'm like, it's Rich. And at that point, at that point, I'm like, nah, we're going to Rich. Because, and this is why everyone, like, all the haters out there, listen up.

[02:20:48] The most obvious thing to do if you're in the other side is to play an idol for Ben, right? Like, it's like, why I don't understand. All these survivor fans out there on Reddit and freaking R-Hat, like, what of these survivor players? It's like, if I play an idol for myself and Ben, someone's like, oh, guess what? We'll just play one for Ben and we've all voted for Ben. Then Caleb's one vote for Brooke sends Brooke home.

[02:21:16] It's like, as soon as I have done this, I can't vote for Ben. Maybe I should vote for Jackson or Blanche or anyone else. But voting for Ben is the most obvious thing. And obviously, he doesn't have an idol. And obviously, no one else chooses to play an idol for Ben. But, like, I don't understand why that was not well understood. So anyway, I get up and, you know, do what we do. We both are rich.

[02:21:41] Yeah, so when it comes to the rich target, was it really that one conversation where you're like, you know, are we good? And he says, I'm fine. And you decide in that moment, like, Rich is the weakest effing ally I ever had. Was it really that or was it more so a culmination of, like, death of a thousand cuts from your relationship with him? I felt like we had a good thing going. But Rich made his own mind up to not vote, to vote for me, you know? And that's his decision.

[02:22:11] But that's not what I wanted, you know? I wanted Rich to vote with me. So I think, like, the level of frustration came from the fact that we had been putting in so much time with Rich and his proxy and laws. So it was like, this was the time when we needed an ally, you know? And it was quite clear to me that he was not an ally. And so I'm like, this is not an ally.

[02:22:41] He's a weak ally. You know, possibly use slightly colorful language as, you know, inappropriate for most people. But, like, I was like, you're an ally. You're not with me. You're a weak ally, you know? You know? And then I thought, obviously, I'm not going to vote off Ben for reasons I've explained. But, like, I'm like, okay, now Ben has, like, stepped into this leadership role. He might see a world in which he's like, maybe we need to keep some of these big, you know, bigger threats around. That was what I was hoping for.

[02:23:10] But, yeah, definitely, like, I felt like I had an expectation with Rich that he would be with me. I had no expectation that Blanche was going to be with me, you know? And so that was where, like, the weak ally line came from. And Keely was the same. Like, Keely had been spending a lot of time investing in Rich. And that's why she was like, as long as Simon's on board, she's fine with it, you know? And I think, like, maybe, like, people like Keely and myself were just, like, a bit more cutthroat in that way.

[02:23:38] Like, it's like, oh, you know, we're making decisions quite quickly and, like, we're a bit more aggressive sort of players. And so when you get, like, when you put us all together, like, it can be a bit savage. So, yeah, that's how I felt. Well, you survive another day, but it won't be many more days. But for what it's worth, again, you are sort of a crab scrambling out of the bucket at this point. And you sort of have this conversation with Ben, right, where you're both kind of just bullshitting one another.

[02:24:06] But you do offer up another returnee in lieu of yourself. The man who offers you a fake idol mere hours ago. How candid was this from you? Were you really going to turn on Simon? Were you happy to vote him out at that point just to keep yourself safe? I would do anything to keep myself safe, except for probably vote off Brooke at this stage.

[02:24:33] I remember saying to Ben after Rich got, like, at Tribal Council, Rich leaves. And then I go to Ben, I'm like, like, I've still got your back, you know? Like, I remember saying to Ben, like, I was trying to, like, get Ben to be thinking at that moment, like, I can still work with Mark. Because when I played my idol, I gave a big speech to Ben to say, like, you've been a legend, like, you've been an incredible player in the event that someone plays an idol for Ben.

[02:25:03] So I wanted people to be thinking we were voting for Ben. So I really wanted to try and see with Ben that we could play together. But I basically just, like, let him talk. And he was very much saying, like, you know, we need to take one or two returnees out, you know, before there'll be a spot for one in the roster or something like that. I think he said it was pretty funny. And it's not Brooke. I'm not offering up Brooke. And so I'm going to offer up Simon.

[02:25:31] I don't think in that point in time I was going to actually vote for Simon. I was just trying to figure out, like, okay, what can I say to him to, like, yes and the plan? And then I'll figure it out from there. Also, like, just get votes off myself, you know. Like, I don't want votes on me. Like, you know, try and get the target off me. But I really wanted to try and, like, create a perception of a gap between me and Simon.

[02:26:01] And that was actively discussed between me and Simon. But at the same time, if they voted for Simon, then it wasn't like I'm like, okay, well, that's okay with me. And also, like, Simon's doing really well on challenges. So maybe you might want to take out Simon over me. So it was a real bit of a juggling act. But in my mind, I wasn't – I didn't want to vote Simon out because I thought that he was loyal to me. And I was, you know, loyal with him.

[02:26:31] Subject, you know, like, subject to not being me. So, yeah, I thought that we had a strong four plus Caleb. And then I was like, okay, if we can try and, like, just divvy up some of their votes amongst the other players. Because they weren't very good at splitting votes, Mike. Yeah, we got the weird clients doing this episode. Yeah, yeah. I was just, like, yeah, trying to appeal – basically say anything I could to Ben.

[02:26:56] And I didn't really think he bought it. I was like, I don't think he really bought it. But, yeah, I was just trying. Yeah, that's interesting because, yeah, it seemed like from the edit, like, okay, everyone's on board for a Simon vote. But then Caleb starts kind of turning you and Ben against one another. But now it seems like for you it was more so, like, almost like confirmation bias of, like, even if this is false, I didn't think that Ben was with me at all. So let me just go after him again.

[02:27:26] Yeah, I mean, like, this is what I didn't want to say in my exit episode. Obviously, I had a hunch of how the ending was going to go. But, like, the conversation I had with Caleb about voting Simon seems very honest. I'm like, oh, I don't remember that one. But, like, the rest of it in my mind, I'm like, we were pretty much targeting Jackson or Ben and trying to get something else going.

[02:27:50] I remember really trying to get Cameron and Caleb and me to work together because I was like, okay, who else can I work with here? And I remember thinking, like, okay, well, Cameron hates Simon, like, because he keeps getting dogged by Simon. And he says that to him, you know, at the lunch or whatever. He's like, every time you ask me to trust you, you break my trust. So I was thinking, I wonder if, like, I could create a little anti-Simon trio in Cameron and Caleb.

[02:28:20] And that was, like, that was what I think the Keelys alluded to it as well. Like, it's just like Cameron wasn't, like, the most dynamic player in that regard. Like, he was like, oh, that would be a big move for you and I want a big move for me. And I'm like, well, you don't really often get just solo big moves, mate. Like, you kind of got to work in little coalitions. You kind of want Simon out.

[02:28:46] And we saw this repeatedly with Cameron where he would tell Brooke or Keely, like, yeah, I'm voting with you. But then ultimately siding with, like, the majority, which is, like, a good call. But I thought at this part of the game, like, there could have been a little bit more. I was hoping, hoping for a bit more dynamism or, like, small coalition building. But unfortunately, yeah, I think that I've just riled them up way too much. I'm thirsty to get me out.

[02:29:16] But, yeah. So you go into tribal council thinking that, all right, we've got five here. We can come over the top, take advantage of this split. I always ask people when they're blindsided, in retrospect, was there specifically a conversation or moment you had with Caleb that made you, should have made you realize, oh, this guy's going to take me out tonight? Yes, there is, Mike. Like, right before the end of Scramble, I'm, like, I've said everything I need to say. I'm just going to go look for an idol.

[02:29:45] And I walked down to a path. I'd been looking, like, obviously looking everywhere. I'm going to try that other path. And so I went down a way that I don't want to go. And Caleb came up to me right at the end. And he was super confused looking. And he was like, who, what's the split boat again? And I was like, Caleb, B-E-N, three letters, Ben. Like, what do you mean? What's the split boat?

[02:30:12] Because I was trying to tell Caleb, get on the numbers. So, like, in the minds of Ben, be in the majority. Don't be a split boat, you know. And that's, like, a confusing thing to say to someone on day 30. Like, I wanted him to be the one voting for whoever their target was. Don't be the split boat. So we're taking one away from their majority. And so then he was coming to me being like, what do I tell them? And I'm like, mate, we're about to wrap. Why are you asking me this question now? Just vote Ben.

[02:30:41] I don't see why this is complicated. But he did a really good job of just, like, acting kind of tired and fatigued and, like, kind of dumb. But he was not dumb at all. He was just trying to monitor to see whether I had found an idol or not. And then Blanche came running up the path and was like, have you seen Caleb? And I'm like, why are you guys all running around? And then it stopped. And I was like, oh, that was weird. So that was definitely the tell. So the only thing I really could have done, I think,

[02:31:11] is to ask Healy to play her idol for me. But at the same time, I'm like, oh, God. Like, I've just played one idol. Am I going to, like, idol myself to the end, you know, taking everyone's idols with me? I don't know. I was, like, so hesitant to ask Healy for her idol. And I just didn't, like, I was like, you know what, let's just roll the dice on Caleb and see how we go.

[02:31:39] It was the wrong call. But at the same time, I'm like, is Healy really going to give me her idol? She's probably, I think she said this, she's like, oh, if Mark's got Caleb, great. If not, well, then, you know, we'll have to figure it out later on. So, yeah, that's how I felt. But I'm definitely blindsided. So it was well. Yeah, you rolled the dice and it came up fittingly snake eyes here. And it's so, I hate to say this, it's so much fun to watch when you are sitting there being like, I think we've got this.

[02:32:09] And then that final one comes in. And I mean, again, I only to be one-offed by a moment much later in the season, but, like, that was one of the most shocking boats I'd experience in some time, given the edit you had up to this point. But walk me through that emotional rollercoaster of the boats coming in. Because I think you're like, I've got this plan on lock. I've somehow survived yet again, only for the rug to get pulled out. Again, the one guy that you were seemingly warned about very recently of like, do not have a blind spot for this man. Yeah.

[02:32:38] I mean, like, it's easy to say that for the other people, but because I'm the one out in front. And so they're like, don't trust anyone. Like the Indiana Jones line. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I'm like, okay, who should be number five then? People? Like, Loz, you know? Sally? You know? Like, I was like, yeah, I get it. Like, it's difficult to trust him.

[02:33:04] But, like, I don't know who else is better placed than Caleb. So, but I definitely, as you described it, it was just like, as the boats were rolling in, I'm like, oh, oh. Like, I was like, I think we've gotten away. It was that feeling of, like, getting away with, like, a crime. You know? I was like, oh, we have done it again. What's this weird two-person split? You know? Like, oh, this is wild.

[02:33:30] And then, yeah, like, to see the snake, the monster sort of tag on the boat, I knew it was Caleb. And I'm like, oh, no. So, yeah, no, like, it was, like, immediately, immediately, it was just all locked into place in my brain. I'm like, ah. And I could, like, rewind, like, the last day. And I could see how it all happened. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, that's how he got me.

[02:33:56] But then also, like, I pretty quickly pivoted to, like, you know, everyone was, like, giving me a standing ovation. And, like, it was really, like, nice. And I remember thinking, like, oh, this is so different to last time. I was, like, the last one on the jury. And then this time I'm the first one on the jury. I think David said something really nice as well. And I just, and I remember just trying to encourage little players to play their own best game.

[02:34:24] And then, yeah, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm the mayor of jury will. That's pretty cool. And so, yeah, like, I was shocked. But at the same time, I was, like, there was, I was running out of runway in the game. And I remember thinking, like, I should have asked Keely. But then I'm like, ah, that's, like, very, very greedy. I felt like it would be quite greedy. So I was like, ah, we're done. Yeah, I mean, let me straight up ask you here. Because, you know, you talk about getting your redemption in terms of being more cutthroat, protecting your allies.

[02:34:54] You talk about having more fun out there. Did you think you could win this season, Mark? And was there a point where that changed one way or the other? Yeah, when my torch got snuffed. Just when that 1% got taken out. Yeah, like, the odds are low, Mike. The odds are low. But I played a win. And I think that I am extremely competitive. I think, like, asking Keely to play the idol for me would have been,

[02:35:24] like, smart. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, in my head, I'm like, Brooke and I had already discussed voting Simon out. She probably had said the same thing with Simon. So in my head, I'm like, okay, we need to, like, if I get through this, I can then work with Caleb and Brooke and maybe Cam to target Simon, maybe Loz. Keely and Simon are two tights. I'm going to have to burn Keely.

[02:35:52] And then it's going to be a combination of getting challenges when I need to, finding other targets. And then being more subservient. And, like, at some point, just letting, like, a Cameron and a Loz and a Sally, like, dictator vote, you know. I felt like my resume was well and truly full.

[02:36:19] So I was always like, you've got to find a way in your mind to convince yourself that you can still win. And you've got to try and make that the reality. So, yeah, I never gave up. But I knew that it was, like, a very slim. And I knew that I would have had to have won some, like, unexpected immunities, you know. Yeah, like, I was banking on a bit of luck, unexpected immunities, you know, anything, really. But, no, I never thought I was out. I'm definitely not.

[02:36:49] All right. Well, let's get into some questions about you on the jury here, Mark. Because you got to be the first-hand witness to some of the most wild post-murge gameplay I've ever seen on Australian Survivor. Talk me through some of the highlights here. What was, like, the most enjoyable Tribal Council from your perspective to watch? Oh, absolutely the idle one. The Keely and Brooke isled out Blanche. That was soaking wet. My shirt had, like, it was a new shirt,

[02:37:18] and the color was so wet, the color was running on my shirt. Oh, my God. Yeah, I was absolutely soaked to the bone, but I didn't care. I was having the best time. And I could tell that Keely and Brooke didn't care either. Blanche was really upset. She's like, can we wrap this up and go and vote? And Brooke Keely's like, no, I've got another ride. Oh, it was so good. So seeing that unfold was so good. And I think, like, even at one point, Dave was like, you've got to stay in your seat, Mark. Like, you can't get up and scramble with them.

[02:37:47] I'm like, I know, this is so fun. So, yeah, definitely that one. Like, seeing I knew of the fake idol, and I had told Brooke on my way out. About Keely's idol, yeah. Yeah, much to Shannon's disgust about Keely's idol. So I thought that they could be on there with the two-idol play. And then so as they were doing it, I'm like, I can, in my head, I'm like, oh, they've got the fake idol and they've got the real idol. Like, I knew that this was a possibility.

[02:38:17] And so that was so exciting. Didn't understand how Blanche, I didn't understand who voted for Blanche from the jury. So I didn't appreciate how, like, smart that was from Ben in particular. So when Blanche came to the jury, she was, like, outraged. But also she was like, who voted for me on Blanche? I go, I don't even know. I have no idea. Yeah.

[02:38:42] So that took us quite a while to try and figure out how the Blanche side of things happened. And obviously I realised that Simon didn't vote with Keely and Brooke, which was interesting. Yeah. So that was pretty cool. The Ben one, I saw Jackson in the last second lip sync, lip to Simon. Yes. That was going to go on Ben. And I saw that from the jury and I was like, oh, that was pretty cool.

[02:39:12] But that's also where I, like, because I saw that, I could see how late in the piece that decision was. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I could see them go up. I could see them talk. And then I could see it's like last second, let's go on Ben. And that was, like, the difference that I was in Final Tribal that I was highlighting. That I'm like, Caleb had been playing Double Agent for 30 days. You changed your vote in, like, the last second, which was, like, which was noticeable. Who else was there? Well, yeah.

[02:39:42] I want to get your perspective on the fact that, again, the people you were who voted alongside you, right, like, they were kaput. They were these underdogs. And you got to see these moments of exhilaration. And then we saw not once but twice, right, from an outside perspective, the possibility of a tie vote going to rocks. And then both times one of your allies turns on another one. What was your reaction to that? Yeah. I mean, like, the Simon one, I thought, like, at that point in time,

[02:40:11] it didn't surprise me because of the way I know Brooke. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, oh, Brooke was probably pretty annoyed that Simon voted for her when she played, when Keely played the idol on her, you know? I thought that that would have been a pretty big black mark in Brooke's mind against Simon. And then knowing Brooke as well, she probably sized up her competition and was like, I'm going to beat these people. So I was surprised. I was surprised that Brooke changed her.

[02:40:41] Did we go to a re-vote on that one? I think we did. Yeah, that was the one I need the re-vote on. Yeah. And I was like, ooh, but then I was like, oh, that's got to be Brooke. And then she fessed up to it. So, yeah, that was interesting. I was surprised that, like, Keely and Jackson were, like, went along with, like, some of, like, I was like, oh, interesting that, like, Keely stuck to the plan. So I wasn't sure if Keely was, like, happy to this, like,

[02:41:09] not want to vote for her ally kind of thing. You know, I'm not really sure. That was kind of what I was intrigued about was what Keely and Jackson were thinking about in those ones. Particularly in the one where Brooke goes home. I like the fact that Jackson, like, you know, like, he kept his vote on whoever they were voting for was, I think it was. So, yeah, yeah, I was intrigued. Also, like, yeah, the one with Keely voting on Brooke,

[02:41:38] like, if it was anyone else, I would have thought Keely could have gone to Rocks. But because it's Brooke, she's so good at challenges. Like, it's really, like, I know, I know, like, it's, I know that we're all strategy people, but, like, to see someone like Brooke in a challenge, it's so, you're thinking, how am I going to beat her? You know, you look at her and she's so good. So, and you know that you're also at risk if you, if you don't take her out.

[02:42:07] So I do think, I do wonder if in another world playing again, if Keely would roll the dice. Like, I get it from her this time around, but I wonder if she were to be an actual returnee, I wonder if she would have just rolled the dice and try and just do, like, a Parvin Saree, like, absolutely, like, even though we're both big threats, let's just go to the end together and duke it out kind of thing. Like, the real play to win mentality rather than, like,

[02:42:37] put yourself at more risk. I think that, I reckon, second time around, Keely would potentially take Brooke. But I get it first time around, you're like, nah, it's too hard. The Cameron one was wild to me. The Cameron one was hilarious. But apparently Caleb and Brooke did a deal. Yes, that apparently, like, Caleb would vote out Cameron. Or no, Caleb would, Brooke would flip on Simon in exchange for Caleb getting rid of somebody that she wanted, which was Cameron.

[02:43:06] Yeah, that came up in Final Tribal Council as well. Okay. Which was, like, I thought was a really compelling move. Like, another good move from Caleb that I didn't know about going into Final Tribal. And Brooke sort of was, like, Caleb sort of mentioned it and Brooke was like, yeah, that's true. And I was like, whoa, Brooke. Like, you know, for all the people saying that Brooke didn't get another question, like, it did definitely come up. And I was like, that's pretty impressive. So, yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was a credit to Brooke's game as well.

[02:43:35] That Brooke did, like, Brooke got the deal. She got the deal done with Caleb. And Caleb stuck to it. So I thought that was really impressive. So what do you think was, like, from your opinion, the most, like, eventful arrival at Ponderosa? Either from a personality perspective or, like, based on what went down at Tribal Council, what was, like, the most exciting night at Ponderosa? I think the most exciting night was when Cameron came out and watching Blanche's reaction to Cameron.

[02:44:04] That was get a bucket of popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show because Blanche went to town on Cameron. It was so funny. So I was cooking dinners for everyone because Blanche at this point had found out that Cameron voted for her. And she was pissed. And so she sat him down and, like, interrogated him. And it was so funny. And there was me, Simon, Ben in the kitchen. And this is being filmed for the jury villa.

[02:44:34] And we're just giggling so hard because Blanche is not letting Cameron out of it. It was quite funny. So definitely Blanche, the Blanche's reaction to Cameron getting to the jury was number one. What was everyone's reaction to Sally and the half idols? She seems to tout this as, like, this was the big move that impressed me in front of the jury. We see Simon's reaction. Like, was this something that kind of went over, like, a wet fart to everybody? Not a wet fart. I don't think a wet fart.

[02:45:02] I'm, like, like, I was trying to process it at the time, like, what had actually happened because I thought that Caleb had the other half, right? I didn't know that Sally had the other half. And so then when she stood up with Keely, I saw Caleb's reaction and I'm like, oh, God, Caleb's gone here. Like, he's, which is, I was hoping Keely, I was going, I was team Keely, but I was thinking, oh, wow, like this could be Caleb, the end of Caleb.

[02:45:32] And so just, like, the way in which Sally handed it back to Keely and then Keely left, it just left me neutral. Like, I didn't think it was particularly strong, but it also didn't, to me, it didn't bother me because I'm, like, Sally has chosen to vote off Keely, so she's just, like, tried to do something. And she tried to, I thought she was, like, trying to get the half idle off Keely.

[02:46:03] If I was Sally, I would have played it for Loz and try and create a debt with Loz. Actually, no, that's not true. If I was Sally, I would have played it for Keely and I would have tried to, like, do something crazy and then knife Keely at, like, the final. I don't know. Like, I would have tried, like, I think if I was Sally, I would have tried to have done something a bit more, yeah, like a bit, I think Sally's run to the end

[02:46:31] would have been smoother having Keely in the game still. So, yeah. So, yeah, anyway, but, like, it's tough. It's tough. It's really, it's tough. Yeah, like, it's whatever. Like, they're all there. So, yeah. I need to get your reaction to that final three vote. Oh, God. I mean, because I imagine at this point, like, especially with Keely gone, you're sort of like Team Caleb until the end. So how did that color your reaction to what he does here? I'm like, Caleb, what are you doing?

[02:47:00] I'm like, oh, why has the Chaos Caleb come out at this point in time in the game, you know? Like, sometimes he's so cool and then sometimes he's so chaotic and I was just like, oh, you know, like, I was like, I was, love Loz. I thought she was going to not get many votes if she got to the end. And so I was just anticipating a very simple vote.

[02:47:31] And so when it happened, I was excited at the prospect of a Caleb Jackson final two. I still thought Caleb played a better game, but I was just like, oh, we're really doing this, Caleb? We're really? Oh, you're really doing this? Okay. All right. And I gave him this, like, raised eyebrow look. I'm like, you've put yourself in this situation. It didn't bother me. Like, I didn't see it as, like, a negative strategic move

[02:48:00] that, like, earned, like, minus points. I was just like, all right, Caleb's chosen a hard road to half a mil and let's watch these fireworks. Yeah. But it was shocking. I was so shocked. And then Loz was so shocked. And she came into the jury and she, her head was spinning. Like, I don't think she, she was really tired. She was really, she'd been up on the pegs all day. And I was, like, I remember, like, speaking specifically to her about the pegs. I would say you can sympathize very, very easily. Yeah, yeah.

[02:48:29] I was like, I've been, I've been here, like, I've been third. It sucks. I've been on those pegs. I know your family would have been out here. But I, like, she was, she was so tired. I think she really needed, like, a good sleep until she could, like, actually get her bearings again to see, to, like, process what had happened. Yeah, it's quite full on for her. All right. So let's get into this final tribal council because you have a lot to say. And I think you'll have a lot to say about having a lot to say here. But I'm curious from our perspective,

[02:48:58] and Kaylee sort of alluded to this as well, it really did seem like not a lot was up in the air. That this is going to be at least a five to four for Caleb. Was that the sense that you had as well from the jury that everyone had pretty much made up their mind between these two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me just put it on record, Mike, that whilst I was on the jury, I was not campaigning for anyone. I was very much campaigning for... You were making meals. I was making meals. Simon was making breakfast. And I was very much saying, like, you vote for who you want to vote for. Don't be swayed.

[02:49:27] I was actually trying to encourage people to not be swayed by other people. So any, like, of the vocal... Like, we discussed people's games, but I was not, like, highlighting Caleb and, like, downplaying Jackson at all. So I just put that on record. But I don't think that many people's votes changed. I actually thought Brooke may have voted for Caleb. Well, I think she may have been on the undecided,

[02:49:55] but I think that Jackson's performance at Final Tribal Council was like, oh, that's definitely a better Final Tribal performance. So I think that may have tipped Brooke. But I don't think why Anch was changed. I was open-minded, actually. I was open-minded because... But I remember, like, my metric of what I wanted to vote for was around the things that mattered to me in the game,

[02:50:22] which were building relationships for strategic purposes, you know, and the substance of the game. And ultimately, as I was listening to both of them, I felt like even though... So I was more listening to Jackson to hear, like, what else he had been doing. And ultimately, like, on my own metrics, I was like, no, I think I prefer Caleb's game. But then I really did feel like Caleb was struggling bad in the... In, like, mentally.

[02:50:52] I feel like he was, like, not there. I feel like he had been really tired. I think he was just, like, brain was fried. And then there... It wasn't like I was the only one. Like, there was, like, definitely, like, some, like, tough questions from Simon going towards Caleb. And then... And I remember, like, from Titans v. Rebels that, like, I knew stuff that Caroline had done, but I didn't have the time to, like,

[02:51:21] tell the jury what she had done. And then in China Council itself, like, Raymond was very vocally supporting Ferris, which kind of, like... I was like, okay, we're not really, like... I thought it was supposed to be, like, unbiased. But then, like, Raymond was doing that. And I didn't really stand up for Caroline that much, even just, like, out of solidarity. Eventually, I voted for Ferris. So this time around, I could see how the thing was going. And I'm like, okay, maybe this won't, like,

[02:51:50] change anyone's mind, but I should still help Caleb articulate, like, what he did because he was really, really struggling. And I wasn't the only one. Like, Keely did it too. Loz did it. Even Cameron said to him, like, hey, Caleb, you need to give examples of what you're saying. Like, you're claiming that you played a double agent, but you need to, like, show the receipts. And so I think that, like, I wasn't alone in that.

[02:52:19] But I don't think too many people's minds changed. I think the thing that, like, may have, like, been particularly... It's because Ben was very much attacking Caleb for saying, like, I set up the mark vote and you kind of, like, just edged it over the line. And so I was like, okay, well, you've, like, had a pretty tough question at Caleb. I'm going to give Jackson a tough question. And I think that's the thing where it's, like, it's one thing to give your... The person that you're going to vote for a lob question.

[02:52:48] It's another thing to put a difficult question to the other person. And I think that's where it's, like, I really gave Jackson a tough question. And that then led into, you know, Blanche and Cameron and Sally articulating, like, the pain points in Jackson's game. Yeah. Which is tough. Like, if I'm Jackson, I'd be like, oh, man, like, that's pretty annoying, you know? Like, yeah, that would have been pretty tough to take. Yeah, so, I mean, what is your response, sort of, to the response?

[02:53:16] You know, you've been a juror now twice. I think everything is incredibly subjective, both from a juror's perspective and a fan's perspective as to what they wanted of a final tribal council. Now that you've, sort of, have gone more into the territory of, sort of, championing somebody, certainly people have called for how they don't like it to the extent where they're like, this should not be allowed. Where do you stand on it now that you've gone to, sort of, like, engage in the behavior? Um, I think it's fair game. Um, I think we've been... I've learned...

[02:53:44] Like, I witnessed what happened in Titan Sea Rebels. Um, that was allowed. Um, and so I witnessed... I think both of them had the chance to explain them themselves quite well. And ultimately, like, I put myself in their shoes. If I was... If I was Caleb or Jackson, I felt like I would have been able to handle the questions that were put to me. Um, do you know? Like, if I was Caleb, I would have been able to rebut Simon's questions. If I was Caleb, I would have been able to rebut Ben's questions. And if I was Jackson,

[02:54:13] I would have been able to, like, respond to my question. So I think that, um, as it currently stands, um, this is the game and you need to be prepared for it. Like, this is a live jury. We've had lots of live tribal councils. You've got to be adaptable. Um, I also think that, like, for people who... I can understand it, but I think that, like, for people who are watching as a viewer, um, you're viewing an edited product where you're being told the reason... One of the reasons why Caleb wins

[02:54:43] is because of his relationship with me. But you don't get... You're not shown Cameron's relationship with Caleb, which is really, really strong. And you don't see Cameron telling Caleb essentially the same thing with me. So, um, ultimately, I don't care because this... If you decide to be the villain of the season, you've got to own it. And so, um, like, if those people who don't like it don't like me and they conflate the two together, then I'm like, well, yeah, it comes with the territory.

[02:55:13] Like, you choose to be a villain. You choose to put yourself in this situation. Then, like, yeah, you've got to cop it. So, no, I think that's fine. I do wonder... I don't think that they can really... I must say... I do ultimately think that, like, it's a really tough environment. It wasn't personal. Like, it wasn't like the... It wasn't like the personal attacks that have happened. I think that's worse. I think, like, the personal attacks that have happened in other seasons, you know, which often... Not all that may be, yeah, is worse. I think as long as it's, like,

[02:55:43] about your game and strategy, um, you've got to get interrogated and you've got to have, uh, an answer and, um, and that will determine the votes of the jury. It's 500k, Mike, we're talking about. It's not like... It's a lot of money. So, yeah. Um, so, yeah, I, uh, unsurprisingly, I stand by it. All right. Well, I guess the question is, Mark, is, uh, do you chance a third venture out there? I mean, these were two very big seasons for you.

[02:56:13] Would you want to go out and play for a third time? Much like, uh, Simon and Brooke and Harry, did you want to join that club? No. Like, I have no... At the moment, I have no desire to. Um, it's a long time... Like, okay, there's all the personal stuff, right? Like, long time away from home. Like, disruption for my entire career. Um, you know, my wife is at home by herself. You're wondering where her husband is.

[02:56:40] Um, but even still, like, in the game, I'm, like, last... First time round, came third, won a card, did really quite well and, you know, made an impact on the game. This time round, really made an impact on the game, um, in four returnees. What am I gonna... Like, if I come back and it's all... All returnees, then, like, surely there's gonna be my friends there. And I don't want to... I really like my friends from Survivor. I don't want to... I don't want to have to, like,

[02:57:10] backstab insert friend's name here. Um, so... And then, like, I just don't know what else I would do. So, I mean, like, maybe if it was, like, a way, way, way down the track, potentially. Um, uh, yeah. And then, like, I mean, like, like, Australia v. World is, like... Or Australia v. US would be interesting. It would be World. Like, I do... I would like to, like... Maybe I'd play, like, French Survivor or something. Or, like, I speak French. I was gonna say,

[02:57:40] you could speak a lot of languages. You could really chameleon yourself in anywhere. Yeah, yeah. Maybe, like, that would be more appealing. Um, like, playing, like, in a... I don't know, UK Survivor or something. Um, if that comes back or, you know... Quebecois French is hard. But, um... I don't know. Kinshasa, I think it used to be called, which is the French Survivor. So that would be... That would be fun. Um, but nah. Australian Survivor, I... I think... I'd rather see Keeley play. I'd rather watch Faith play.

[02:58:10] I'd rather watch, um... Lottie play. Ben play. And then, like, Titans v. Rebels. Like, I mean, we still haven't seen Eden, um... Caroline, um... Val, Viola. So, um... I don't know. Like, it doesn't... It doesn't, like... I've scratched the itch twice. It's a really cool adventure to have twice. So I'm not... I don't have that right now. So, yeah. Well, then, how do you look back on the scratches here? This is the end of your Survivor journey, being this fan. And like you said,

[02:58:39] having these two very different journeys in the game. How do you look back on being able to put together quite a resume for yourself to do the veritable Survivor globe trotting for the... Yeah! I mean, like, it's... It's crazy. Like, I mean, this has been... So, 20... We played in 2023 and it's now 2026. So this has been a lot of Survivor in the last couple of years. But like, I think back to, you know, growing up with the game. It's just like,

[02:59:09] wow, like, it's crazy to think like... Yeah, to think about it. It's just wild. Like, yeah, it's a big part of your life. And so, like, it's not that important. It's not that important in terms of, like, the impact on my life. But it's just like, wow, it's really fun. Like, I get to YOLO it twice. And so... And that's kind of how I see it. And like, I... Yeah, like, you know, you talk to people who... You know, like, who go through different things in their lives and they go,

[02:59:39] oh, wow, Mark, you got to like, really do the thing that you really like. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty cool, man. Sorry. Just a bit emotional. But no, but like, it's just fun. Like, it's just really fun. And yeah, like, it's... I don't think it has the same impact on my life that it has had for other people. But it's just more of that, like, when you think back as to how long I've watched this show, you know, it's just like, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you so much for opening up about that.

[03:00:09] I mean, here's the thing, you know, I love me getting to watch, you know, your Keelys and your Bens be able to fall in love with the game as they go. But there's always a special place in my heart for someone who is a fan, who is able to put every ounce of themselves into the experience, especially this time around where, you know, you came in with a different MO for M-A-R-K and you were able to capitalize on it. Yeah. Again, I cannot say how absolutely astounded I was that you were voted out. You had by far the most confessionals.

[03:00:38] You were the chizzy leader at the time. You were playing that game forwards and backwards. And regardless of whether you placed first or 11th, it was abundantly clear that you were willing to, like, not only showcase your skill and passion for this game, but also showcase yourself as well. And so I'm so thrilled that we got the chance to have you back out there, to have you participate in so many wild things, to get so many wild things happen to you as well, including your own blind side. Yeah.

[03:01:08] And truly getting to sit down with you and chat through all this for, you know, going on three hours now was an absolute pleasure. I think you are so much fun to just talk about the game with and your inner machinations and being able to be both, you know, self-deprecating, but also self-celebrating at the same time. I think it's a really admirable trait. Mark, it's diplomatic for lack of a better term. I guess, yeah, of course, anything else you want to say? Any other spare thoughts you have about, obviously, a very loaded season before we officially,

[03:01:37] for now at least, put your Survivor career in the can? No, no, all good. Like, it's really, really fun. It's been, it's really cool to see Caleb win. Like, I'm really interested to see how the money changes his life. I think that's going to be really exciting. Yeah, and I, like, I'm pretty excited to put the Survivor story to bed a little bit, you know? Like, it's just a nice ending. So, I mean, like, I'll still be in the community a bit, but I'm looking forward

[03:02:06] to taking a back seat because it's been a lot of mark. Yeah, you were driving a lot in this season. No, no, thanks, Mike. It's been really, really sweet. And yeah, you've done a great job covering the season. It's been really fun. So, yeah, all the best. You know, I know you're covering a lot of season 50 as well. So, thanks for your time. I know this is fucking three hours now. Oh my God. No, listen, I will talk about this season to the end of the earth just because I had so much fun getting to watch it and you were a big part of that with just all the chaos that was created.

[03:02:36] And you talk about taking that backseat. If you want to check out all the backseat opinions you have, how can people follow you on social media? Yeah, Mark T. Warnock on Instagram. Like I, like Survivor gives me a lot of content. I'm not normally a social media person. Just ask Keely and Faith and Karen. They give me shit about it every day. So, yeah, you can get in touch with me on Instagram. Now that Survivor's done, my posting will be probably my dog and like holidays and food and walking around Brisbane

[03:03:06] with my wife. But yeah, hit me up there. And, you know, I'm not watching Survivor, US Survivor anymore, but I'll keep watching Australian Survivor. That's for sure. Well, hopefully you'll keep watching these deep dives as well as this will be, I'll say it again, a tough one to follow, but I'm very excited to see who is up next to give their take on all the loving calamity that existed in this season. So do not miss a second of it, folks. We know GlobalSurvivor.com if you missed my sit down with Keely, very much recommend that as well get to see Keely's side

[03:03:35] of the head office thing. So we get to see compare and contrast, share some stories here. So feel free to check that out as well as we've got a bunch more coming in Australian Survivor coverage. We are not done any time soon, but that's going to do it at least for this deep dive. Mark, again, thank you from the bottom of my heart that this was an absolute pleasure and I'm so excited to see what happens with you next, sir, whether it's just simply getting to, you know, take a walk with your wife or whatever else that might mean, French Survivor perhaps and everything.

[03:04:05] This was such a pleasure, man. Well, thank you again also so much for listening. Let us know your thoughts in the comments as well and thanks for hanging in there for this full three-hour deep dive. Nearly the length of the peg challenge and hopefully it was not as torturous here. So I'll be back soon in your eyes and ears with the next deep dive. Until then, everybody, take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.