Ethan Zohn Rewatches Survivor’s First Swap | Survivor Time Trip

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[00:00:31] Hey, what's going on? Rob Cesternino. We're back with another Survivor Time Trip where we are talking to iconic Survivor players about some of their most epic Survivor adventures. And here with me, my co-host on this journey, give it up for Mike Bloom. Rob, I'm sticking to this podcast like an eric tick sticks to Lindsey Richter's ass.

[00:01:00] Yes, yes. Okay. Well, I'm not going to touch that one, unlike some of the people in this episode. But a guy who's always up for a good trip, let's welcome in the winner of Survivor Africa, our great friend, Ethan Zahn. Ethan, how are you? I am fantastic. And like you said, when you said the word trip, I'm like, I'm in. You're in. When I show up, what do you want me to talk about? Let's trip it out.

[00:01:27] Yes. Okay. And so today we are going to be talking about the first ever twist in Survivor history, the iconic Survivor swap, the first ever tribe swap in Survivor history and everything that went down there. Ethan, we're so excited to have you here. What's been going on? Well, I literally just got back from an epic road trip where I was the host of this new web series called Kicking Back. You can find it on High Times YouTube channel.

[00:01:56] It was an exploration of soccer and cannabis and all the cities hosting a World Cup match this past summer. Wow. So I went to eight different cities and it was wild. That does sound wild. And such a fun trip. Yeah. So how did this come? Like who had this idea of going on a road trip to all these different World Cup cities? Well, it was me. Like is there any other person that loves weed and loves soccer as much as I do? Yeah.

[00:02:24] And this is the first time in the history of the World Cup that it was being held in countries that are cannabis friendly. Interesting. United States, Mexico and Canada. So it's really the first time we'd even ever been able to have this conversation in like a public and legal way. And so, yeah, I pitched High Times on it and they jumped on board and, you know, they have a really robust YouTube station. And so they're really trying to lean into more like lifestyle programming with a hint of cannabis. And that's kind of what I offer them. Yeah.

[00:02:53] That makes sense. I think both subject matters talk a lot about grass. So it just felt like a natural association. Yes, definitely. Yes. Ethan, what did you learn on your adventure going around through the World Cup city? Because we're going to watch the show. But what was your takeaway? What I learned is that no matter where you are or what country you support or where you are traveling to to get to the United States, everyone loves weed. Everyone loves weed. The great equalizer.

[00:03:21] It is the great equalizer. It brings people together just like a soccer ball brings people together. But, yeah, it was fascinating for me. You know, every different state has different rules in and around cannabis. But like you have all these foreigners coming to the United States for the first time, people from like Saudi Arabia and Morocco, you know, and even like Scotland, like where cannabis is highly illegal. Yeah. And now they're coming to the United States. You can walk into a shop, buy it off the shelf and just go have a good time.

[00:03:48] And so it's really fun learning about different cultures and communities and how they experience the sacred plant. Right. Because, you know, I heard and read a lot about people coming in from different countries and they were taking up all of the alcohol and then they were also like overindulging at Bucky's and like, wait, what is this ranch dressing? But what was your experience with the people from other countries visiting and partaking in our legal recreational cannabis?

[00:04:17] Well, I don't know if you saw like pictures or images of fans passed out on the sidewalks, you know, that I saw a lot. But, you know, it was interesting. People were into it and they want to experience it, yet they weren't really ready to talk about it publicly or be on camera talking about it. I'd go talk to guys drinking beer. They're pouring the freaking beer on their head. They're drunk as heck. But when it gets to cannabis, it's still a little bit stigma around it. Yeah.

[00:04:44] And it's not obviously as front and center as the alcohol business. So having said that, it's still progress. You know, like there are, you know, cannabis shops on Fifth Avenue, New York City. They're on Lansdowne Street next to Fenway Park. So like it's a start, but we're just not there yet where it's something like an alcohol situation. OK. All right. I got to go check out the web series. Check out the web series. Yeah. Kicking back high times.

[00:05:09] And like I said, I actually recruited some fellow cannabis friendly Survivor stars. You may see a Wendell Holland appearance, a Michelle Fitzgerald appearance, Savannah appearance in Atlanta. So we have a lot of people coming in that wanted to be part of kicking back. OK. Dream blunt rotation. All right. Well, let's kick back to season three of Survivor.

[00:05:35] Go all the way back to November 8th, 2001 when this episode aired of Survivor Africa. And but I do remember when this originally aired that there was a lot of talk about there where they were advertising something that's never going to you've never seen before is going to happen. And I just remember as a viewer being like, what? They can do this? Is this fair? What is that? What is this?

[00:06:04] And I felt the same way when it actually happened in the show. You know, I remember that morning, you know, they gave us the clue which said pick three players to, I think, go on a journey or go on an adventure or something along the lines. So obviously we just buckled down like, what could it possibly be? Oh, we'll pick strategizing. Like, who should we send? Do we send, you know, like Lex and Tom and then someone else? Do we send our alliance?

[00:06:31] Do we try to keep ourselves separate so we have at least some people here back at the Buran tribe and over in Samburu tribe? So we really thought through what it may be. And I don't remember, Rob, back in the day, like during tree mail times, you know, you would get your tree mail. It had some funky, like mysterious clue involved. And we'd sit for hours just trying to figure out what is the challenge? Is it a reward? Is it immunity? What's going to be happening? And we did exactly that for when we got this clue. Yeah, this said that you would go on a quest.

[00:07:00] Was it even in your mind that it would be that you would go permanently to the other tribe? Not even a thought. No one even considered that as an option when we were talking through things. So then what? We thought maybe they'd go and compete against another couple people from the other tribe, but never do we think they'd just flip it. So then did that guess inform the three people that you ultimately picked? Because in the episode, you're the one that we see saying like, OK, it's going to be Lex, it's going to be Tom, and it's going to be Kelly.

[00:07:30] But how what was sort of the criteria to eventually come to the decision of those three people? You know, I think we were looking at traditional, you know, like strength, ability. You know, what could what could they win is what was going through our mind. We assumed it was going to be a challenge and there's going to be some negative consequence if you lost. So we were trying to send our best team forward. You know, Kelly was really smart about the game at the time.

[00:07:58] Like she was a student of the game, even though there's only two seasons before us. You know, Lex was decent in challenges. Tom, you know, obviously the comedy outlet there. So we just thought it was a good, you know, mixture of who was there. And I guess who was left was me, Clarence and Kim Johnson. So on this side as well, like, you know, I was decent in the challenges. Clarence was decent in the challenges. But we put our best foot forward. Like we put a team forward that we thought could win in this situation.

[00:08:26] What would have happened if there was no swap and Barron went back to tribal council? Was Clarence still just as much of an outsider that he would have been the easy consensus person to go? Definitely. Clarence was on the chopping block at that moment. For sure. You know, back in the day, you know, as we all know, it was about, you know, keeping the strong, getting rid of the weak. For some strange reason, our season was about honor and integrity and, you know, no lying. It's just wild to think that that was the strategy back in the day. Obviously, it lent well to my game.

[00:08:56] But yeah, so we were ready to get rid of Clarence more for social reasons than for, you know, strategic reasons. He was kind of rubbing the tribe the wrong way. He had made some questionable decisions earlier on and we thought we were getting close to a merge. So we didn't want to have Clarence in and around the merge. And I think I kept using the word merger. We all were using the word merger back in Survivor Africa. It's pretty funny. Well, just to go back into have watched an episode.

[00:09:24] It's been a minute since I watched an episode from this far back of, you know, it really is striking. What was it like? The challenges are happening and Jeff's not talking. It was literally like they used all this fantastic Russ Landau music to just kind of pad out the three minutes of that goat challenge. And Jeff comes in at the end like, Ron wins. There's not even like the overly exuberant Jeff that we're used to. Yeah. We packed a lot in. There was a reward challenge, an immunity challenge, and a tribe swap in one episode.

[00:09:52] The reward challenge, that was the goats, right? Yes. I remember that vividly because I was, what was also weird was I was trying to communicate with Lex and Tom like somehow, but obviously, you know, they were strict on communicating when you're on the mat. So during the challenge, I remember trying to communicate with them like, what's going on over there? How's it going? I'm like, Karen, a goat like this. And they weren't, they wouldn't talk to me. And so I remember getting in my head a little bit thinking like, what's going on here?

[00:10:22] Are we still in an alliance? Are we still together? What's going to happen if they come back, if they never come back? Those are all the things that were going through my mind at the time because we were pretty solid at that point. Lex, Ethan, Tom, and then I had Kim on the side. And so I was, it was a stressful situation because it could totally, you know, uproot my game in that moment. Yeah. Talk about your reaction to that because you actually talk on the episode how, and maybe this speaks to the fact, that you thought it was a challenge. Like you said, I thought they were going to come steal our flag.

[00:10:52] Like you were maybe predicting the Pearl Island death pilfering twist of like, well, the Samburus won. So they're going to take our stuff only to find out that they're going to become part of your tribe. What was your first reaction to something that, as you mentioned, did not even glance anybody's mind? I was floored. You know, I was shocked, surprised, disappointed because, you know, I felt I was in a really good spot in setting myself up to go far in the game.

[00:11:21] And then this just completely destroyed that. And obviously the folks that came over, Silas, in my mind, was my biggest competition from the other side. I didn't know much about, you know, Frank and Teresa at all. I just kind of, Silas looked like the leader over there. We had chatted about it. We assumed he was the guy running, run the show over there. And so that was confirmed by Frank and Teresa. But I was, I was kind of, I was upset. I was disappointed.

[00:11:49] I didn't want to have to like start over again. And I remember feeling that way. You know, this period of time in the swap in Survivor Africa, you come into it and it's 6-6. And then it's really these two episodes back to back because there's also going to be stuff that goes on in the next episode where you really get the numerical advantage moving forward across these two episodes.

[00:12:15] And the backdrop across all of this is the previous vote tiebreaker, which was just so huge in this season in terms of, and when I think back to it, it's like, I don't know. It was flawed, but I also kind of like it. It's hard to keep track of, but it's sort of like, yeah, that makes sense. You got votes before. You should go home in a tie. I agree. I absolutely agree.

[00:12:43] And I was always confused with the fact that Probst never read all the votes. That was, does he read all the votes now? No, because I remember back in, like the first time this happened in Australia, they asked Jeff Barner, like, how many votes do you have? He's like, one that I know of. So it's like, you might not even know how many, you can lie about the votes that you have, but you might not even know all the votes that you have. Yeah.

[00:13:07] And I remember that just thinking through that in the moment, at that moment, like, why isn't he reading us all the votes? Maybe I had a few votes against me and I just will never know. And I'm really a target here. But remind me what that, the tiebreaker vote was right then. Oh, that, yes. That was with, um, on Samburu's side, right? Yes. And Tom almost went home.

[00:13:27] And that was where a lot of the drama coming into this episode was where that, um, Lindsay had already gotten votes from the previous tribal council when it was her and Carl had gotten to a tie vote for four. And so Silas had told T-Bird and Frank and Linda, hey, vote for Lindsay tonight because she already has votes. So we don't need another person getting votes. And they said, hmm, how about screw you, Silas? And they voted for Silas instead of voting for Lindsay.

[00:13:55] The part of it I think that's cool is like, okay, if you had the previous votes, it does carry over. That makes sense. The part of it that was not cool was the Survivor Tribal Council Bushman quiz that comes up. That part. Poor Carl. That part kind of is not cool. Well, they give you a manual before you sew up and you're supposed to study the manual. We didn't know why. And then that's why? It's because of the tiebreaker? Sure.

[00:14:23] I'm so curious, Ethan, because we cannot state enough. And from a 2026 lens, I'm sure people are like, it's a tribe swap, whatever. Sometimes we have two or three of them in a season like this had never been done before. And yes, it was only the third season, but like something that nobody could have ever predicted. We've talked in past seasons about how when some contestants disagree with certain twists, they are more than happy to vocalize that to production. Was there anybody who like at their award challenge was like, Jeff, why did you do this? This is so unfair.

[00:14:53] Not that I remember. I remember feeling that it was unfair, that how could they do this to us? This is just so unpredictable. And it's exactly that. It's not fair. This isn't how you play a game. And I remember, but I don't remember having a conversation about that. But this obviously led into throwing that first challenge so we could lose to get off Silas.

[00:15:18] That was a big decision because, you know, for me as a soccer player and I want to win everything I do, like losing on purpose goes against my moral character. How could I do this? But for me, it was, you know, it made sense. We all came together. I don't know who was, I think Kim Johnson might have floated that first. Yeah. And then we kind of all jumped on board because Silas, in addition to being a physical threat, he was tough to be around.

[00:15:47] He was tough to be around. And we were hearing rumors from, obviously, Teresa and Frank, who might have been biased, at how things were over on Samburu Tribe and how things were running. And, you know, the old versus the young. And Silas was just, had this little click. He was leading. And so it just made sense to get rid of Silas. And he was my biggest competition by far. I had, you know, a good relationship with Clarence in that moment. So, yeah, I think it was the right move.

[00:16:12] But I don't think you guys, had anyone ever lost a challenge on purpose at that moment, up until that point, on the first season and the second season? Yeah. So that's the thing is that this is, for my money, the first time it was explicitly stated on the show that a tribe, or at least some people on the tribe, were going to purposely try to lose the challenge. Like, I would imagine back during, like, the BB days of Pagong, like, maybe they weren't, like, it's more of an it's okay if we lose thing. But nobody had really spoken up about, okay.

[00:16:42] No, it's interesting, though, because you say at one point, Ethan, during the episode, like, it's a win-win. If we win, great. If we lose, then it's fine. So how much were you actually throwing that challenge? We see in the edit, it's a lot of, like, everyone except Silas kind of just standing around dumbfounded, holding to pieces. Was everyone truly trying to sand back that challenge? Yes. I mean, I was both, I was, the way, my role was, like, I didn't want the other tribe that we're competing against to know I was trying to lose on purpose.

[00:17:12] So while I was trying to lose on purpose, I feel like I was the second most, the second highest worker in that challenge. If you go back and look, like, I was trying to make things happen, but I wasn't going to let us win. And that, for me, was on purpose because Frank, Teresa, and Kim were literally doing nothing. Like, they were just, like, walking around in circles. And so I'm like, I'm not going to let the other tribe think I'm throwing this to get Silas out. So I wanted to look like I still was playing hard.

[00:17:38] So I just want to, for the listeners who did not rewatch this episode, the challenge is, it's like a giant African mask puzzle. It's like a two-dimensional puzzle where you have to run out and then go and carry these large puzzle pieces and bring them back and put together this giant mask face that you had to do. It was before they figured out how to do things three-dimensional. They haven't invented a 3D puzzle yet. HD wasn't out. 3D wasn't out. Everything was two-dimensional.

[00:18:08] 2D puzzle time, baby. Yeah. Yeah. And did you have to, at any point, like, undo anything that was being done or your tribe didn't even get close? Because it's hard. Without Jeff's narration, you know, typically, nowadays, Jeff would be like, oh, my God. Yes. Boran, what are you even doing? Put this one in the deep freeze. It's a blowout. Mike, Grandma in the nursing home can put together a puzzle faster than you all. Yeah.

[00:18:35] And a lot of times, even in the other reward challenge also, it's kind of hard. Like, at least Jeff is, like, counting the number of goats that are being gotten in that challenge. This is a little hard to figure. You don't get, like, an aerial shot of, like, the two tribes. Oh, really? So it is kind of hard to tell if it's close or not. Yeah. No, it wasn't close at all. And Silas, I think, was catching on a little bit because he was turning around. He's like, come on. I remember him yelling at people or yelling at me, like, let's go, let's go, let's go.

[00:19:03] And then, you know, I think he started to catch on a little bit what was happening. But no, there was a interesting that Jeff doesn't narrate back then. I didn't even think about that. And it's hard for me to watch the seasons back again. That's why I didn't dig into this episode. Yeah. So I'm trying to recall my memory. And after my road trip this past summer, I don't have any brain cells left. Yes. So this is helpful for me as well. Ethan, why is it hard for you to watch the old seasons?

[00:19:33] Watch me. Not necessarily the old seasons. It's hard to watch myself back on television. I don't know. I just kind of, I've only watched Survivor Africa in its entirety twice. Once when I was on it and then once before I went out on season 40. Because I just wanted to see, okay, how do people remember me playing Survivor? So I needed to kind of get into where I was. Granted, I was 27 versus 45. But yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's tough. It was tough for me. But I don't know.

[00:20:01] I feel like you come off so well on the show. Why is it hard for you to watch yourself then? I don't know. Your hair looks so good. The hair is so good. So good. Is that why it's hard? Because your hair doesn't look the same? Is that why it's tough? It is. It really is. That's the only reason, actually. That's why. It's, I don't know. I just feel like I was so young. I was so inexperienced in life. I didn't have a robust vocabulary.

[00:20:31] I couldn't string sentences. I didn't say anything meaningful or important that I remember on the entire season. You were dying out there in the Kenyan wilderness. That is true. But I see these players now. I mean, obviously, I think being on camera and as students of the game, you have examples of how you want to act on camera. Back then, we didn't. So, yes, I was just being myself. But I was a different person back then. I was a little more soft-spoken. I was a little more introverted.

[00:21:01] I had no experience in life. I don't know. It's just hard for me to watch. Yeah, you didn't know what it was supposed to do. It was still being figured out. And now people are just performing what you're supposed to do. I should have been the ETH God. E-T-H-G-O-D. The Zon God. Zon God. Listen, not too late, Ethan, to rebrand yourself a Zon God. Ooh, the Chozon one, right? Yes! Oh, my God. Well, that was the Survivor Sucks theory, right? Yeah. Because of all the Jesus-like imagery from you in that opening episode.

[00:21:30] If anyone's... If any, we have super, super, super fans out there. There was... Back in the day, people tried to dig into the edit and try to discover, like, who's going to win based on these subliminal messages, right? So, like, oh, they showed a snake after they showed Rob Sesternino. He's the villain. He's going home. You know, they do... Everyone tried to get... But the theory behind me was every time I appeared on screen in Survivor Africa, there was a star someplace above my head. So, it's like, follow the star.

[00:21:59] And that's why they thought I had the winning edit. And there's a lot of, like, Jesus references. Me carrying things. Which I'm okay with. You did have the winning edit. Do you feel like that was real? Or do you feel like that people were seeing things that weren't actually there? No, I think that was real. Definitely real. I mean, I don't know if I had... I think it was clear that Lex and I were kind of the characters leading the charge on that episode with, you know, a sideshow of Tom and maybe a little Frank going on in there. Yeah.

[00:22:29] But everyone else was a little bit vanilla in my mind, including me. Like, I'm no... I'm not a moron. Like, I can go back and watch. Like, I was doing exciting things back then. I'm known as a social player, not the most exciting guy out there. So, yeah. You know, I understand what's going on. This episode is supported by FX's The Shards, a seductive drama from executive producer Ryan Murphy.

[00:22:54] Set in 1980s Los Angeles, the series follows a group of glamorous, deeply entangled high school seniors drawn into a life of wealth, beauty, parties, and excess. At its center is Brett, whose reality begins to unravel when the arrival of a new student coincides with a series of mysterious murders. FX's The Shards, now streaming on Hulu. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless

[00:23:23] for $15 a month is back. So, I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out, that's very illegal. So, there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. See terms. Going from a perception of yourself to, I think, the perception of your competition,

[00:23:51] I'm so curious about, even before this swap happens, what was sort of Baran's perception of Samburu? We see Lex at one point called them the Sambu-hoos. Did that say everything about what you thought about the other tribe? Definitely, yeah. We felt like they, I don't know, we were getting the vibe that they, we got the vibe that they weren't necessarily getting along that well. We could determine that there was a divide between, you know, the older folks and the younger folks. We felt that.

[00:24:19] We saw the clicks kind of in the challenges. Who's laughing at things? Who's smiling at each other during the challenges? Who's working together? So we felt they were a little bit mismatched and unorganized and not cohesive. Where I felt on Baran, while we may not have gotten along personality-wise with everyone out there, we were pretty cohesive. Like Lex, Tom, myself, and Kim, we were a unit. And, you know, we were working well with Kelly. And then Clarence was a little bit of the outsider.

[00:24:48] And Diane was just a disaster as well as Jesse. You know, unfortunately, she had to leave early. I think if she didn't get sick, she could have stuck around a little bit longer, to be honest. But we, back then, get rid of the weak, keep the strong. Jesse was weak at the time because she was throwing up. And it was just an easy way to vote her out. I think it kind of starts to get built into the culture of the show.

[00:25:12] Just the hard-working ethic that I think continues to dominate, like, what's good and what's bad on Survivor. And the way that you and Lex and Tom really had that kind of work ethic of even when Lex and Tom go to the Samburu camp and they show up and it's like, their camp is a disaster. They're digging out the water well. I think that that's just such an important part of Survivor.

[00:25:39] And especially in the edit of like, okay, the people we root for are the people who work hard and do the work around camp. Yeah. Yeah. And that must've been a conscious decision from an editing perspective from Survivor because there were people that were doing nothing and didn't help around camp. They chose not to edit that in. But that, what was the show was about back then? It was about the provider, the community, who's needed most. We got to keep the person around that is helping everyone else.

[00:26:07] Like, that kind of what I felt that early on. And that's, I think why Lex, Tom and I had, we had a good work ethic. We wanted to, you know, make things look good and, you know, cook food and get the water and build stuff. And that just came naturally to us and we gravitated towards each other. And it's so funny because you see it's season 50 when Rizzo is talking to Colby and he's like, dude, like, what are you doing? Why are you working so hard? We don't do that anymore.

[00:26:36] It's like the provider role is not going to do anything for, I don't know what he said. He's like, you know, don't build a shelter. We don't do that anymore. It doesn't even matter. Yeah. It is so fun over the course of the history of the show because your season takes place in the year 2001. And it's this, this battle between these young, lazy gen Xers. The morat. Yes. That they're, they're in their twenties and they don't want to do anything. They just want to hang out all day and drink coffee at Central Park and do nothing.

[00:27:06] And really, but Colby is in that generation. Not to say that Colby was ever not a hardworking guy, but you know, he was 26 at that, at that period of time. Uh, and then here he is then talking with now Gen Z players on survivor. And it is really fun to watch that. You know, then we do a whole season about Gen X versus millennials, where we even have like the generation in between Gen Z and, and Gen X, uh, where they're battling in a survivor season.

[00:27:33] So it is funny to see that how, you know, the, the generations change, but still it's this battle between older people and younger people more so than what a generation is like. Yeah. However, now they don't cast many old people at all, but I do think a fun idea would be imagine getting that the same exact cast from millennials, Gen X versus millennials. Now the millennials are the full class and they're playing against the Gen Zs. That'd be interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually just checking now.

[00:28:01] It looks like, I think seven out of the 16 people in Africa were 40 and or older when they were playing, which is kind of ridiculous, you know, makes sense sort of why the age dynamics built out the way they did on Samburu that I did not remember how much older they really did skew in that season in particular. Yeah. And even on our tribe, I think Lex was what? 38. 38. Tom was 42. Kim was in her fifties. You know, I was in my twenties, Clarence as well.

[00:28:31] And Kelly, Diane was older as well. So like they was that now, I don't know what they cast to maybe three people over 40, maybe one person over 40. I have no idea in a traditional season. Yeah. It's not a lot. It's not many. No, it's not many at all. I wonder why. Like considering, I think the most of the, well, maybe not now the people who watch the show tend, I don't know, maybe they're not as old anymore. I don't know. I would love to hear what you're doing.

[00:28:58] I mean, I would love to hear from you, Ethan, about, I think that people would, when people talk about the hardest survivor seasons to play from a pure elements perspective, Kenya certainly up there. You had a whole fricking, uh, row of thorns to block out lions from attacking. That's how wild it was. And having played in multiple environments, I mean, how do you look back upon living in those elements? Like, do you feel like the envelope was pushed too far? Or are you someone to be like, I wish that there were more seasons like this now that I went through that experience?

[00:29:28] You know, I've said this many times, I'm completely biased, but I do think Africa was the most difficult season environmentally of all the seasons. I even think, um, if I had to rank them for me, all-star, I mean, the survivor was the most difficult all-stars than Fiji. Fiji was a piece of cake environmentally, not like edge of extinction was horrible, but environmentally it was, it was fine. But I would like to, the show back then was survivor.

[00:29:54] It was about surviving as much as it was about gameplay or that's the way they positioned it to the general public. Now it's not about surviving. Now it's about gameplay. So it makes sense that these shows aren't necessarily difficult to survive. You just need to be able to be uncomfortable for an extended period of time. Um, they give you everything you need on Africa. It was, it was really, it was very difficult. You know, the water situation was ridiculous. The food situation was, didn't exist.

[00:30:23] Um, yeah, there's animals, real threat to death out there, bugs, everything. So on the subject of the animals, uh, did you happen to see a couple of months ago, uh, Mark Burnett was interviewed for part of a variety piece that was about the 50 season history of survivor. And he told a story that had not ever been reported before about how during the filming

[00:30:48] of survivor Africa, a lion did, uh, did break containment. Uh, like where there was like chasing like an antelope and then the antelope like leapt into, uh, like past their security barriers and the lion followed it in. And Mark Burnett never told CBS that that happened or they would have shut the whole production down. I had not heard that. I've not heard that story at all. I believe it. It makes perfect sense.

[00:31:16] I mean, we were out there in the middle of this, uh, Shaba national reserve, right? That's a whole nother thing. They're like, Oh, you could go. We were in a reserve. We couldn't hunt. We weren't allowed to hunt. Uh, maybe we could catch a little Guinea fowl, but I had not heard that story, but there were lions there. We would hear lions often. And then, you know, there's, there's one classic more than one classic night, one night they filmed where it actually really came close and they filmed the whole thing.

[00:31:42] But that was a whole nother added extra level level of fear to be out there. This episode, you get to see the elephants that end up getting into the camp as well. What was that like? Oh, it was, that was great. Never in anyone's life. Would I be able to wake up every day and see animals like that? I was never fearful of the elephants for some strangers. I probably should have been though. The most, the scariest, the, the animal that they told us we need to watch out for the most,

[00:32:10] more so than lions was the Cape Buffalo, uh, because the Cape Buffalo has poor eyesight. They charge, um, like blobs. So like if we're walking to water together as three, four or five, six of us, they see us as a unit. And so they would charge that. So there are a few times where we were walking to water, which took us about 40 minutes. Let me put that out there. Um, where we came in face to face with the Cape Buffalo. We had to stop and we had to wait 30, 40, 50 minutes before till the Cape Buffalo left.

[00:32:39] And then we could walk forward. So that type of stuff that people don't really remember walking 40 minutes to the wall. I mean, Rob, you know stuff like this, but walking 40 minutes to the, to the water source. Yeah. Don't give me too much credit that we did not have to walk that like we did drink some disgusting water. We, we, no, we had to go fish the water out of the, the Rio Negro. Uh, and we then, you know, had to boil this water that looked like you were drinking like

[00:33:05] a Snapple iced tea, uh, that, but it was not a long walk and we didn't have to pause because, uh, that there was a Buffalo that was going to charge us. Yeah. So, I mean, the whole water situation is something that these young ones don't have to think about. Not thinking about water is such a game changer as you know, but yeah, we would walk about 40 minutes. We'd have to wait till our water source cleared of animals. We dig a hole. We'd let the fill that hole fill up with water.

[00:33:33] We push away all the elephant shit that's floating around in there. We'd fill up a canteen or fill up these jugs and we'd walk 40 minutes back. We strain it through a buff. We boil it for five minutes, let it cool. Then we could drink it. And before we had that receptacle to keep the water, the limiting factor was our storage facilities. So we could only store enough in our canteen and whatever we could hold in a pot. Other than that, we had no more water. So there's no point in getting a lot of water because we couldn't even hold it.

[00:34:01] So that's, you know, that's survival-ish stuff. Yeah. I want to go back to the actual swap. I know you weren't there, but it happens. It's so matter of fact in terms of how it goes down that they show up and Jeff just gives them like, okay, you're now part of Samburu. You're now part of Baran.

[00:34:28] We do not get a iconic catchphrase, drop your buffs in this moment. In fact, he just has like a little satchel with buffs. That's, he brings a prop along with him. No raps, no impressions, nothing else. Yeah. There's no Jeff-isms. There's no like, so tell me, Kelly, how is this a metaphor for life? It's just like, here, you're on this team, you're on this team. Okay. I'll see you at the challenge.

[00:34:56] I remember, if I'm remembering correctly, there was there an above head like helicopter shot. I remember them looking really little. Like I remember that looking like they were in such a giant field of nothing. And then these three little people and there's nothing around anyone. And that's when they did the exchange. I just remember visualizing them. Like, I don't know. It just seems so, so big and heavy, even though there are tiny little people in the forest.

[00:35:23] But, you know, I, and I remember when Frank and Silas and, you know, T-Bird came back. Like we, what was good. We were like, we were like, they're coming to steal our stuff. They're coming to steal our stuff. Like lock it all down. We didn't know what was happening. Why are these new people coming to our tribe? Like in the, you know, that obviously we thought of. Well, should we talk about some of your first impressions of your new tribe members? Cause I'm so intrigued.

[00:35:52] Obviously you've been watching these people for like the better part of two weeks competing against you. Now you're their tribe members. So let's start with, you know, friend of the podcast, T-Bird. What was sort of your first impression getting to know her? And did it contrast at all with what you had assumed about her before the swap? No, T-Bird was pretty easy to read in my mind. She seemed like a, on the surface, you know, very happy, gregarious, looking to be friendly with everyone. But, you know, obviously a little sneaky on the, on the back end.

[00:36:23] Silas, I did not get a good vibe from at all. Like it was instant, like, you know, male, like you're, you're the guy, I'm the guy, a type guy. I think you're on the right side of history with that one, Ethan. Yeah. Famously bad vibes from Silas. Famously bad vibes from Silas. So I instantly felt a bad feeling. Although talking to the, oh dude, what's up? How are you doing? Oh my God. It's so great to have you here. Oh, we're going to crush these challenges. This is going to be awesome. Two strong people.

[00:36:50] And then Frank was a wild card. Wasn't the most friendly guy. Didn't talk too much. Was a little bit of a loner. So I understood that's going to take a little bit more time to get to know this guy and to kind of woo him into our, you know, side or philosophies out there. Because he was kind of doing what he wanted to do and was thinking the way he wanted to think. It was hard to get him to go in a certain direction at times.

[00:37:18] You know, we, and I especially feel like I don't really know a lot about Kim Johnson who recently passed. I think that she's one of the survivor finalists from the early days that I feel like we kind of know the least about. She went and obviously she played with you all. But then after that, I don't recall ever even meeting her when I come into the survivor world.

[00:37:45] And I don't ever remember hearing anything about her after her survivor season. Did she keep in touch with the cast after the season was over? Not much. I kept in touch with Kim a lot. And I don't know. She didn't necessarily get along that well from what I remember with Tom or Lex even. And I think she had a decent relationship with little Kim and Teresa.

[00:38:13] But other than that, not really. You know, she didn't stay in touch. She didn't come to the events. She came to a, I remember she came to the survivor all-stars premiere at a little premiere party. So she came to that. That was, she's wearing a shirt that had my face on it. Nice. Yeah. But you know, no, she kind of did her thing, got in, got out. And yeah. Yeah. I'm interested to know also, how did she get in? So like if her and Tom did not get along, that was, that was in the show.

[00:38:43] I don't remember her and Lex having as much beef in the episode. So how did she become the fourth person in that alliance if she wasn't really a vibes fit? I mean, from what I remember, and obviously it's been 25 years, I, I was working hard to keep Kim as part of this force. It was definitely me like advocating for Kim all the time. Cause if you remember these, the first two or three challenges, she was the sole reason

[00:39:12] we lost those challenges. Hands down. She was older. She was slow. She tripped a couple of times. I went back and picked her up. So everyone definitely wanted Kim off early, but I had a really great relationship with her. Um, I felt like she was an ally to me. I could trust her and I felt I needed someone other than Lex and Tom in case that just went sour. And obviously in the end it worked in my favor because, you know, I was closer to her than Lex was closer to her.

[00:39:40] And she just, I think she went with the person she liked better in the end. Like no one wants to give an asshole a million bucks. And so I was the nice guy in that situation and Lex was not. Um, and so that's kind of what happened, but definitely I worked hard. There were times when we voted off, uh, Brandon Kim's name was being floated around. Uh, Kelly, when Kelly went with Kim's name was being floated around, but I really truly just pushed for him.

[00:40:10] Like, listen, she's on our side because she was with us. She was definitely with me, Lex and Tom as a hardcore. She was not going to break that, but I had a little side alliance and I knew that no matter what happened, I was her first choice between Lex and Tom. Um, and now I needed, you had to keep that around. I had to have her there. Do you have a favorite memory with Kim across the 39 days you spent together? I do. There was this one challenge that, um, Frank and Brandon ended up winning and they got

[00:40:39] to have a romantic movie night, but that challenge, there was pretty much very little chance. We were, I was paired up with Kim on that challenge. And I just remember she was incredibly nervous. She's like, Oh, I'm sorry. We're going to lose. It's going to be my fault. Blah, blah, blah. It was a reward. So it wasn't a big deal. But yeah, we really worked well together. I remember like just going to the challenge and like letting her walk on my back. I was lifting her up to get over things. And so we did, I don't know. We just, and we won. And she's just so happy that we won that challenge.

[00:41:08] Like our leg of that, the first leg of that challenge that she was so like surprised. But that for me was one of the better moments for me. I don't know why that one sticks out, but we just work really well together and had a good time in that challenge. In this episode, there's the reward challenge that we were talking about where you have to, they freed a bunch of goats and then you had to get the most goats back to your pen.

[00:41:32] And it's always fun when we see the survivors interact with wildlife or not that wildlife, with livestock, I guess, in this situation. And so everybody's trying to shoo them in. And eventually people just start picking up the goats. Was that fun when the challenge was happening or did the show make it seem like it was more of a fun experience? No, it was fun. It was definitely fun.

[00:41:59] What was also fun was on the way to that challenge, we passed by, I think, a challenge, a ton of ostriches. So we're like, oh, interesting. Like, was this supposed to be us like trying to get ostriches into a corral or does it go? So they were planning to do something with a bunch of ostriches. But obviously, we ended up using the goats. So it was really fun. I had a lot of good fun.

[00:42:25] I was also on the lines of like, eh, let's get some real challenges going on here. You know, like I don't want to be running around picking up goats here. And obviously, we're like, Tom had the advantage because he was a goat farmer. So we were thinking they were going to win that challenge. But I think Tom might have been the first one that picked one up. We're like, holy shit, we should just pick these things up. Why are we trying to shoot them in there? Because he was the goat guy. So yeah, it was fun. It was fun. It was cute.

[00:42:52] I also liked, I don't know who came up with the idea to like also run interference on the other group. Like I saw Silas at one point is like blocking Lex from putting the goats in the Samburu pen because they were also separate goats for separate tribes as well. So you can mess with the other team. Necklaces on or something that whatever. Yeah, they're colored in a certain way. But yeah, that was a fun challenge. Yeah. It was a fun challenge. You know, it's a fun challenge. You know, it was a fun challenge.

[00:43:18] And I think that some of the drama with the chickens ends up happening in the next couple episodes where Clarence wants to eat more of the chickens. Was there tension at the camp about how to handle the chickens when you first got them? Definitely. There is drama in a sense more so like should we eat it or should we wait to see if it lays an egg? And surprisingly, it laid an egg the night before we wanted to kill it.

[00:43:47] And so realistically, I don't think, you know, we know what happens when, you know, chickens are kind of stressed out. They're not laying eggs every day. So Kim Johnson did not want to kill it. She wants to keep it. I remember that vividly. She wants to keep it. So it hatch eggs because we're like, OK, if we're going to be here for another two weeks, let's kind of we can have an egg a day. So there was some drama and talk about the chickens. And then we I think we ended up. We had Frank. Frank was like, let's kill this fucking thing.

[00:44:16] Like, you know, whatever we got to do, let's do it. He just wanted to kill. They said he was excited because he got to kill a chicken that day. Yes, he was. I mean, I don't know if you remember those images of him like clanking together horns to get dancing with giraffes or elephants out there. He was a he was. Yeah, I think Frank's great. I say I stayed in touch with Frank. He's a great guy. But out there, no one knew how to work with him. It was he was so military.

[00:44:47] Yeah. He talks at tribal about, you know, Jeff asking like his perception of this new tribe. And Frank's like, well, they're very mature. It's a two line way of communication. They have high securities. They've got well set priorities. I think that says a lot about the priorities that Frank himself had in mind when it came to like tribe camaraderie. Right. It seems like that there's some concern that Clarence and Silas could bro down.

[00:45:13] And they were a real danger of the two people that nobody wants here. They could bro down and it could be a problem for everybody. How much of a concern was that for everybody else? I'm trying to remember back then. I don't think it was a concern. I don't think it was a real concern because there's because Kim, myself, Frank and Teresa

[00:45:39] did not care for either Silas and Clarence. So like how would how would they rally the troops? And I don't think the gameplay was as advanced back then where that it would have made sense to like for Kim and for for Teresa and Frank to probably link up with Clarence and Silas and get like me off or get Kim off. That would have been the move. Right. But it was more is all about loyalty and honor and integrity back then and keeping don't lie to each other and keep your alliances. You know, that's what it was about. There's no.

[00:46:08] Yeah. No one was breaking alliances back then. Can you recap the afternoon before tribal here? Because from what we're shown, it's kind of a madcap series of events with you and Silas where Silas. Is that the same episode where we threw the challenge and we voted Silas off? Yes, it is. So after the challenge at some point, like Silas pulls you aside and is like, you know, you express, hey, I've been wanting to get Clarence out since day one. And Silas is like, great. I can get Frank and T-Bird on board. We're going to do this.

[00:46:36] Then at some point later in the day, he asked you to go look, go get wood. Again. And then he says, okay, I don't think we can do this. I don't think I have Frank and T-Bird. And you're like, you told me that you would. And there's clearly a lot of tension there. So what was going on between the two of you throughout the day? I was basically trying to lie to him because I knew we wanted to get him off. We had already decided at that point we were probably going to throw the challenge to try to do everything we can to get Silas off, if I'm remembering correctly.

[00:47:05] And so I was just trying to deflect. And so I was actually happy that he came back to me and says, I don't think I can get these because I'm like, well, we're already going down that route. I thought you could get these guys to get Clarence off. So it gave me a way to distract him. But I think he probably saw right through it. I remember we were like, I really feel like we were like face to face. We were talking like this close. And I remember in that, I remember that because like I'm a fairly non-confrontational person.

[00:47:33] Like he was like, he was ready to throw a freaking, because he knew, I think he knew I had a little bit of power in everywhere in there. I was aligned with Kim and, you know, Frank and T-Bird were working a little bit with Kim and me. So I think he's felt it. So he knew I was, I had some pull and he was really, he was frustrated and he saw it. He knew it. He says, it's either going to be me or Clarence tonight. You know, he got the vibe. So we know that you gain by getting rid of Silas.

[00:48:01] Were you yet thinking about, oh, also we can protect Lex and Tom and Kelly who are on the other tribe and potentially could be going into a tiebreak situation at that point? I know that's going to be the focus as you get into the next vote, but were you already talking about that? No, not that I remember. I don't think we were thinking more than the one tribal council right there from what I remember.

[00:48:24] Uh, you know, I definitely, you know, having said that we wanted to keep more, well, like I knew we wanted to keep more of us to more of the brand tribe together just in case we did come back together or in the merge. So like it was in the back of my mind, but it wasn't a deciding factor for me. Like I know it's, I knew it was a numbers game. It would be the most beneficial to have as many old school brand together whenever they shook up again, but it wasn't my first priority.

[00:48:53] My first priority was like protecting myself, getting, uh, Silas off. Because after this, I know it's the next episode. Is there a thought about potentially throwing a challenge again to get rid of Clarence or now? Are you now thinking back to, well, I don't want it to be five, five when we go into the merge. And so then let me think about how to protect my friends. It, I was looking more for the merge at that point. I wasn't looking to throw another challenge to get Clarence off because I did think we

[00:49:21] might need a little bit of strength there, uh, to win a challenge. So we didn't have to potentially go to tribal council. Uh, and I wanted to keep as many brand around as possible. Yeah. I think that. And when I say I wanted to like, like what I didn't have, it wasn't me making all the decisions, but. I mean, what is so interesting you expressed it before is the strategic component of throwing the challenge and getting Silas off compared to your natural sense of competition. Yeah.

[00:49:47] And I feel like this is actually one of the most dividing factors amongst the entirety of survivor alum, you know, 750 plus people. We see so many arguments through the years of like, should you throw challenges? Should you never throw challenges? I mean, we assume, you know, where we stand on the issue, but like, how did you reconcile again, you as an athlete, as a competitor with, okay, I'm going to need you to not really do your best in this challenge. It was tough.

[00:50:14] It really was like I, my whole life leading up to that point was when like everything I wanted to do, I want to win and I want to beat and I want to be the best. Like that was my whole strategy. I want to go to the end with the best players so I can beat the best at the best. Right. And I quickly learned like that Silas could be better than me at challenges and immunity challenges, especially.

[00:50:37] And so I could justify it from a gameplay perspective in the sense that like in order, my end goal is to be to the end. And if he is in between that, he needs to go. And if I can, you know, it would have been more difficult to get Silas off if he was like back up with like the Lindsay and the Kim and Brandon on the other side. So it was a smart move. So I was able to get over it fairly quickly. But it definitely went against what I wanted to do.

[00:51:07] Do you remember how it came together? The plan to pass along to Lex and Tom and Kelly that Lindsay is the person who has the previous votes. How did we do that? I know it's the next episode. Yeah. If I remember correctly, Mike, was it, is it Kim Johnson who is like holding up the L? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what it is. We were trying to send them smoke signals. I remember. I think it was, was it during the goat challenge, right? I think it was in the next episode, I think.

[00:51:37] What was the challenge of the next episode? Well, I didn't, I didn't rewatch it, but I feel like it comes up in the next episode. We definitely, I definitely remember now that you say it, that we were trying, how can we get them information? I think on the mat, I was trying to talk to Tom or get his, get his eye contact like that. Definitely. I remember that now actually trying, cause we weren't, I guess you're still not allowed to talk to people on the mat. I don't know. I feel like they would like that now.

[00:52:07] If you just went like, Lindsay has previous votes. Like, uh, literally I'm thinking about survivor Vanuatu when you have a, of course, infamously a Bubba being like, Chris, think about the merge. Right. Uh, I brought it up the challenges from next episode. The first one was the, uh, African trivia because we can't get enough of that in this season. And the immunity challenge was the, uh, the weapons with the bow and arrow. Oh, I feel like it comes up at the reward challenge more than the, um, wasn't at the bow and arrow challenge.

[00:52:37] It was whatever was before that. Yeah. So, but there really was like this, like, um, emerging strategy. You want to talk about the bow and arrow challenge? We can talk about that. But yeah, the twist really, uh, like all of this, like emergent strategy really comes up from this very first, uh, twist that the show has. Yeah, no, it definitely does. It, it's, it was a good thing in the, in the ethos of survivor because it was pretty predictable of a show.

[00:53:03] So now I know, now knowing what goes on now, well, maybe Ethan will have a return to form in the open era where people won't know what's coming next, that we'll see a new generation of survivors having to stay on their toes. And you can't just memorize everything that's going to happen, uh, the whole way through. Tell us about the famous bow and arrow challenge. Uh, the, the brain, the Brandon famous, uh, like it, it, it would have been like a gif at that point in time.

[00:53:32] I don't know that that was invented yet. Um, I just, I was just joking only because I hit three of the five arrows. So that made me feel good about myself. However, I'm still the, one of my biggest regrets in all of survivor is not stepping up to shoot the arrow and survivor all stars. Uh, the night I got voted out because Jerry, Jerry step, everyone's like, who could shoot the arrow? I'm like, I want to, I said, I want to shoot an arrow. Jerry was like, I want to shoot an arrow. The crime voted on Jerry.

[00:54:01] She's like, Oh, I don't know. I go to burning man. I shoot arrows all the time. And, uh, and I'm like, and so then she's obviously we lost that. And I got to put it out. But anyway, I feel like that's not really a connection people make when it comes to attending burning man. Where the trip. Let's bring up another moment from Africa here. We're sort of doing an overall retrospective on the season because I feel like one of the most monumental moments for you, not only in the season, but in your life is this reward

[00:54:29] that you go on speaking of goats to the village with Lex, uh, where unfortunately these goats are led to slaughter and you have the hacky sack right there that you play with the kids that ended up being the first stepping stone to, to grassroots soccer. I mean, now that we are, I didn't even realize that Rob, before you dated it coming up on 25 years of that happening. How do you look back on that moment? I look back very fondly on that moment. You know, I obviously have talked about this moment at nauseam, but you know, what was fun

[00:54:58] about that challenge is, you know, uh, I won two goats and which I wasn't so happy about, but I got to take these goats to this little village of Wamba and literally Lex and I got off the, first of all, Tom was pissed at me. He's like, how could you not take me? I'm a goat farmer. And you take Lex, you know, you win two goats and you take Lex to the, anyway, so that was a whole thing. But I get to this place in Wamba and like, they literally dropped us off the truck and production didn't do a thing.

[00:55:28] And for some reason I thought they were going to like, tell us what to do or where to go or how to do it. But like, I remember holding these goats and I'm looking at them like, okay, what now? And they just look back at me like, and like, it's so that it was literally reality TV. Let's follow these guys around and see what happens, you know? And that was kind of cool. Uh, and so obviously you saw what happened. We went around and sold the goats and ended up getting some food.

[00:55:54] I ended up having to take a dump in front of everyone on national television, which I'm incredibly proud of. Uh, so, but I got to play hacky sack with these little kids in this, this village of Wamba, which is the genesis of grassroots soccer, uh, cause those kids were in an HIV AIDS hospital. And so that was also the first time survivor broke the third wall and kind of did something in the community where Lex got to deliver HIV testing kits to this, you know, little village of Wamba, which was kind of cool as well. Yeah.

[00:56:22] Um, and just like a real throwback because, uh, you know, with that, one of the things on survivor, it's just so self-contained of like, uh, it's sort of like, okay, we're here on these islands. We go to the sanctuary. That's it. We really, uh, I can't remember the last time they left the area that they're in, in Fiji to go visit any part of the culture. Never. Yeah. That was what survivor. I think that's why a lot of people used to tune into survivors because it was a fun

[00:56:52] game, but it was also just an exploration of geographies and different countries and people and cultures. And they did a really good job of having at least one episode where they took the cast into the community, whether they played soccer, you know, they, there was a reward challenge for a tribe. And I thought that was nice. Obviously I got to be part of that, but they don't leave the islands anymore. You know, the budget cuts. And so now they have the sanctuary and maybe I don't even know what else. Maybe they go on a boat ride or something.

[00:57:22] They went to, I remember, uh, they went to a school, I think like eight or so years ago. And that was like, yeah, I think it was in, uh, yeah, the aforementioned Wendell's season. I think ghost Island, they did it. Yeah. Maybe the last time they left. What is so interesting is that I do believe that those survivors, especially those early seasons when you were going to these, like, especially very disparate locations, there was a lot of like cultural immersion as part of, I think, especially in your season, right? Because these rewards of the village visit, Lex dropping off the hospital supplies, Lex

[00:57:50] and big Tom taking the water balloon over those Cape Buffalo. I feel like nowadays, like survivor is the culture that they're being immersed in. You know, it's like, okay, you know, your reward is more survivor by going to this other survivor location. And so I think it speaks to as well, like the cultural institution that survivor has become and how it reflects back on itself. I absolutely agree. Really? Yeah. I totally agree on that. And obviously they're in Fiji for whatever, 10, 15 years.

[00:58:19] So there's no, really no place to go unless they're taking a real long trip, but that the shows it's, I don't know. It's not, it's not better or worse. It's just a little bit different. Yeah. You know, uh, I don't know if people would enjoy that these days. It seems like the audience loves the gameplay and they love the challenges and the twists. I don't know if they want the, the social commentary or the, you know, the visits to other communities and cultures. I don't know.

[00:58:48] I'd be curious to find out maybe in the open era, they'll do a reward. That's off of Fiji. Yeah. Do something crazy. Right. Jeff in this episode has a different look than he does in the modern era. He is wearing the cowboy hat and sunglasses. Should Jeff go back and try some of these looks from survivors past in the open era?

[00:59:12] I, I would love if every episode Jeff showed up with a outfit from a previous season. I think that would be ideal. That'd be beautiful. People would love it. Didn't he invent? Didn't, didn't Columbia came out with a color that's just for Jeff Probst. It's like the survivor blue. Interesting. Boom. Check that out for me. Yeah. Yes. Check that Pantone Jeff survivor blue. I think Columbia sports where it came out with a special color for Jeff. I could be wrong.

[00:59:42] Um, if not, it's a really good story. Yeah. Probably push that out a little bit. Yes. If not recommend the cannabis that you were having at that time when you came up with that, because that's incredible. People at Columbia should bring you on. All I'm reading right now is an article on reality blur where Jeff said that his shirt, they would actually like die the shirts that he got from Columbia, a very, maybe that was That was it. Yes. That's it. But they should sell it. They should sell it.

[01:00:09] Ethan, why don't you sell a t-shirt in Jeff Probst, uh, Pantone blue? That is a very, I'm actually, uh, in the process of designing my survivor 51 t-shirt. So stay tuned. Oh, okay. We can't wait to see how it comes out. Yeah. I'll send you guys a couple as I always do. Okay. Yeah. All right. Mike, any other things from looking back at the twist? I guess the last thing I want to ask, Ethan, is the note that the episode ends on, given

[01:00:35] everything that had happened over the course of that afternoon, how much did Silas see it coming? How much was the writing on the wall by the time you all sat down at tribal council? I think he knew, you know, he knew, he definitely knew it was between himself or Clarence and probably based on interactions socially. Like I don't remember hanging out with them or talking to them that much. I just, I didn't even care because we all knew we were going to vote about. So I didn't put in the time and energy to make him feel comfortable.

[01:01:05] So I think he probably had a good idea. Okay. Ethan, can you remember, I know you had a lot going on in your life at this time. What was the number one movie at the box office during the airing of this episode of Survivor? The twist. It was an interesting time in the nation in general. Yes. I think it was the Tom Cruise movie with Mission Impossible. No, not a, and there was no Mission Impossible out at that time.

[01:01:34] It was Monsters, Inc. Number one movie at the box office. When was Mission Impossible come out? Mission Impossible 2 was that? No, no, Mission Impossible 1 was like 1996, I think. When was 2000? And then Mission Impossible 2, I think was 1999 or 2000. But number two was The One, which I don't really remember. And number three, one of Mike Bloom's favorites, K-Pax, number three movie at the box office. Oh yeah, big Costner fan.

[01:02:01] Rob, why don't you go back and find out what was the most popular, one of the most popular boys' names in the year 2001? Oh, okay. Versus the year 2000. I'm just throwing it out there. Like, top boys' names from the year 1999 to 2001. Does the name Ethan seem to skyrocket up in the ranks? Does it? I mean, well, the problem is that this is already November. So by the time you, I wonder about most popular boys' names in 2002. Okay. Might be a better indicator. Interesting, though, because yeah, I mean, of course, in the opening for Survivor 50, Jeff

[01:02:31] brought up to Colby that people were naming their kids after him. Naryam mentioned to you in the opening of Winners of War, I remember. Yes. So, well, I may or may not have researched this exact question. And I did see a jump from like 15 up to number five. Wow. I'm just throwing it out there. Yes, it is. The number five boy's name. So yeah, and you do have a spike. I have a spike. I have a spike. I mean, I think what is so interesting, I've certainly seen people like Mara Lanza talk

[01:02:58] about it, is that I do feel like, granted, there were only three seasons at this point, but you had sort of been a bit of an unorthodox winner in that obviously Richard Hatch and the Alliance were despised in Borneo. And then even in Australia, I think that people thought that Colby was the hero and Tina wasn't necessarily the number one hero. Right. I think you were the first quote unquote hero to win Survivor, at least from an editing perspective. Do you agree? I mean, it's hard for me to talk so fondly of myself, but of course I agree.

[01:03:28] No, I think it was, like you said, it was a really interesting time. I think it worked out incredibly well for Survivor because obviously we had filmed the show. We get back September 11th happens. They delay the premiere of Survivor Africa for a month or two. And then I come out and listen, I'm a nice guy. I'm friendly. I'm well liked. I ended up winning. Obviously it was, they couldn't change the fact that I won.

[01:03:53] So it was really coincidental that like an evil person or a bad guy didn't win right after. No one wanted to see people like suffering and surviving after September 11th. So I think they were questioning how is this show even going to land in the general audience? It did well. You know, obviously, you know, people still watched it and I think it worked well that I won because I was a nice guy. Just in the, as a fan at that particular time, you know, Survivor was such a phenomenon in the first and second season.

[01:04:22] And the people who were on the show were really treated as like these like celebrities and these are like, like role models. And then I do feel like that after 9-11, I do feel like that reality stars still had their place in, in the world. But I think for at that particular time, like these, you know, first responders were sort of like, okay, these are heroes. You know, these are people that were on a reality. The show was still widely popular, but I just feel like that the people that were on like

[01:04:50] Survivor, the Australian Outback were looked at as like almost like this is like this, this, these figures that are like, oh my God, these are our new real celebrities. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. I mean, the numbers show, you know, the numbers of people watching the show, you know, it was a thing. It was a vibe. And like, it was the only show out there, as we know, it was the only show in town. And so everyone watched it. But what's so interesting is looking at your first season and then your last season of Survivor,

[01:05:18] when a national tragedy happened, people were like, okay, reality TV seems too trivial. I don't want to watch it anymore. Your last season, Winners of War, comes out around COVID and almost there's more of a groundswell support around the show with this form of escapism. So it's so interesting, the difference that can happen, you know, amidst like these calamitous events happening and whether people turn to these types of shows or turn away from them. Or maybe it's the show that's causing these things. Did we ever think about that? Oh, God. Wow. This took a turn. Another twist. 2004.

[01:05:48] Did something bad happen in 2004 that Survivor caused? Probably. Every season I'm on, it's something bad happens in this world. I don't know. Wow. Conspiracy theory number six. On that note, Ethan's on. Always feel good story with Ethan. Of course, the star of Kicking Back. You can watch that at HighTimes.com.

[01:06:12] I would go to YouTube and then search for HighTimes or search for Kicking Back with Ethan. So YouTube, HighTimes, YouTube channel. I'm right there. Smackdown. Yeah. All right. Any other things you have in the works, Ethan? Top secret stuff all the time. Lots of top secret stuff. No, I'm pretty happy to be back. You know, I'm just kind of focusing on what I always do. Grassroot soccer, a little philanthropy, all the boring stuff. All right.

[01:06:38] Well, Ethan, thank you for making time to talk to us and go back and have a Survivor time trip with us. Back to the Survivor Africa twist. Mike, what's coming up for you? It's a lot of Big Brother. Ethan, I don't know if you watch Big Brother, but if you haven't heard, two of your Survivor compatriots are on. Any thoughts about Rick Devins and Dee in the Big Brother house? Listen, I haven't watched it yet. You're going to plan on saving it. I'm saving it.

[01:07:06] I just want to watch all a thousand episodes at once. To be fair, there are some aesthetic elements in the show that will make you think that you're high, even if you're not watching it. Well, maybe I would love it. My next thing is Survivor. I would really like Jeff Probst to do an entire season where we're allowed to get high and go play Survivor. That's really what I want to do. So let's work on that. Okay. You're in? Are you in? Are you in? I'm in. Sure. I mean, that might be it. I don't think I can get on Survivor.

[01:07:36] So this might be my one shot. Yes, it is. I'm doing all the casting. So you're in. Nice. Nice. Okay. And then, of course, Mike has incredible coverage of all things Big Brother over at Parade.com. Anything else we should check out, Mike? No. Just tune back in. Same bat time, same bat channel for another time trip here as we'll take a look at another iconic episode with another iconic guest. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about our look back.

[01:08:06] Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye. Bye. Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. It was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer.

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