This week, Mike Bloom talks to Evvie Jagoda about the evolution of television.[00:00:15] Hi everybody and welcome back to TV for Real, where reality and scripted TV collide.
[00:00:21] My name is Mike Bloom, back from the Thanksgiving holiday.
[00:00:25] For those who celebrate, I am very thankful to be joined by my guest this week.
[00:00:30] Unfortunately, Sasha will not be able to join us, but someone that is definitely able to make up for it with their guest appearance.
[00:00:38] I am thrilled. Welcome for the first time to TV for Real, Ivy Jagoda.
[00:00:42] What's up, Mike? I'm so excited to be here. I didn't even know.
[00:00:46] Okay, I full disclosure, I don't know that much about this podcast, but I didn't even know that I was filling in for Sasha's shoes and I'm like intimidated, but I'm like, I'm short. I'm Jewish. I think we'll make it work.
[00:00:56] Exactly. Listen, you're basically like two thirds of the way there.
[00:01:00] Yeah, there's a critical piece that I'm missing, but that's fine.
[00:01:03] Most of the Venn diagram is filled out like that.
[00:01:06] I mean, you're you're the one with the doctors. You can tell me like this in their phrase like there's a there's an and.
[00:01:12] And with the middle and there's like the neither nor.
[00:01:15] Oh, my God, that's that's beyond the Venn diagram.
[00:01:18] Like there's some sort of logical phrase that I'm forgetting that described to it.
[00:01:21] Okay, I'm not gonna lie. My PhD did not include enough Venn diagrams for that level of conversation.
[00:01:27] But okay, that's fine. Listen, PhD is not required today.
[00:01:31] I guess a PhD in TV is the one thing that's a prerequisite for this very podcast.
[00:01:37] And I guess I should say, Evie, how studied are you up on that?
[00:01:41] Obviously, we know your involvement in reality TV, but are you a connoisseur of the scripted variety as well?
[00:01:47] Okay, here's the thing, Mike.
[00:01:48] Okay, we talked last night when we decided that I was going to do this podcast with you.
[00:01:52] Also for the listeners, I'm just gonna say I've had a couple of drinks before this.
[00:01:56] I just want to let's get it all out.
[00:01:58] This is like the podcast, dude.
[00:01:59] Again, you're not entirely sure about the tone of this.
[00:02:02] Sasha and I call this the party podcast.
[00:02:04] Okay, that's what I thought.
[00:02:06] That's what I thought.
[00:02:07] And this tends to be how I relate to podcasts with you, Mike, for whatever reason.
[00:02:11] Because I feel like the last one I did, I was also like this where I was like,
[00:02:14] LOL, this is a silly time.
[00:02:16] But you just bring it out of me in the best way.
[00:02:17] So thank you, Mike.
[00:02:18] Of course, anytime.
[00:02:19] Listen, I love when someone reciprocates.
[00:02:21] And that is very clear with you.
[00:02:23] Yes.
[00:02:24] Okay.
[00:02:24] So last night around 11 p.m., we talked about this or whatever.
[00:02:29] And I made a list on my phone of scripted shows that I've watched.
[00:02:33] Should I just like bang them out?
[00:02:36] Yeah.
[00:02:36] Well, let's let's let's start from I'm trying to think chronologically or maybe a list of
[00:02:41] like quality or favorites.
[00:02:43] Let's start chronologically.
[00:02:44] Do you remember like what?
[00:02:45] What's a show that you remember from early on in your life?
[00:02:48] And I don't know if this made the list or not that you got on.
[00:02:51] OK, here's a show that I feel like this was probably like late elementary to early middle
[00:02:59] school.
[00:03:00] Like I felt like I was becoming a teenager in this era.
[00:03:03] OK, controversial, probably seventh heaven.
[00:03:08] OK, this is interesting.
[00:03:11] Yeah, I haven't.
[00:03:12] I'll admit I dabbled a little bit.
[00:03:15] But, you know, obviously, I think, again, given one of the things you share with Sasha and
[00:03:20] myself as well, like not typically the show we would watch, considering.
[00:03:23] Sure.
[00:03:24] Exactly.
[00:03:24] Like watching a pastor that turns out to be one of the most sinful pastors off screen
[00:03:29] that you could imagine.
[00:03:30] And his family.
[00:03:31] It's bad.
[00:03:32] Yep.
[00:03:32] But I feel like you tell me if you agree with this.
[00:03:36] I feel like I can relate as growing up pretty Jewish.
[00:03:42] I feel like I can relate to shows about religious like I think there's a thing of like they're
[00:03:46] religious, just a different religious is somehow closer than like not religious sometimes.
[00:03:51] You know what I mean?
[00:03:51] Yeah, no, I know.
[00:03:52] I totally agree that it almost feels like stuff that was and granted, there was like
[00:03:58] not a lot of Jewish stuff, you know, especially in the days.
[00:04:02] And as we were getting closer to it, especially with cartoons and specifically children's shows,
[00:04:06] bringing it in and more.
[00:04:07] That's the gateway drug.
[00:04:08] But it is interesting because, yeah, sometimes I felt like things were a little too close to
[00:04:13] home when it was a little too Jewish.
[00:04:14] And I'm like, OK, listen, I just have to like take away one book of the Bible.
[00:04:19] And basically we're on the same page here.
[00:04:22] So what's going on?
[00:04:23] And it's also not like those types of shows, especially Seventh Heaven, which was, you know,
[00:04:28] not exactly on these basic cable Christian based channels.
[00:04:31] No, this is like ABC family.
[00:04:33] Yeah, exactly.
[00:04:34] WB, I think it was.
[00:04:35] So it's like WB.
[00:04:36] That's right.
[00:04:37] That's yeah.
[00:04:37] They're not exactly saying like, all right, and this is what God teaches us.
[00:04:40] It's just more so, hey, here's are the virtues that I carry through in my sermons to teach
[00:04:45] my son that the one episode I really remember was the one where the oldest son met.
[00:04:51] They catch him with pot.
[00:04:52] And it's like he is, I don't know, like has a stash of angel dust in his pillowcase.
[00:04:59] Like they treat it like it is the most taboo thing.
[00:05:03] And that this man has basically like shooting heroin directly into his arm in front of his
[00:05:07] parents.
[00:05:07] Yes.
[00:05:09] Relatedly, Simon, who is like one of those, like one of the youngest in the original when
[00:05:13] he grows up to be in college, there's a plot line where I mean, he commits the ultimate
[00:05:19] sin of having sex before marriage in when he's in college.
[00:05:23] And it's so, it's so much of a crime and terrible for you that he literally leads to him like
[00:05:30] failing out of college because he's like having because him and his girlfriend are like skipping
[00:05:36] class to have sex.
[00:05:37] And therefore it leads to like flunk out of college.
[00:05:40] And the lesson, of course, is that having sex will make you fail out of college and ruin
[00:05:45] your life.
[00:05:46] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:47] As we know, it's like your brain is a switch, right?
[00:05:49] It's only libido or academics.
[00:05:50] There's no difference in between.
[00:05:52] Yep.
[00:05:53] There's also, uh, speaking of the Jewishness at some point, Matt, the older one, the oldest
[00:05:58] one, he ends up marrying a rabbi's daughter.
[00:06:02] So he is like the pastor's son, rabbi's daughter thing.
[00:06:06] And there's, I grew up in a kosher home.
[00:06:09] So like we didn't meet mixed meat and milk.
[00:06:10] And there's like a very funny scene that my whole family enjoyed of like when, uh, I guess
[00:06:15] there's like a meet the family thing and the pastor's wife main character.
[00:06:20] A pastor woman tries to make a kugel, uh, to be nice to the Jews.
[00:06:25] And at the end, like the, the whole meal erupts for like a variety of reasons.
[00:06:29] And at the end, the rabbi's wife is like, well, you know, it was so nice that you made
[00:06:33] a kugel.
[00:06:34] And the rabbi, the pastor's wife was like, well, yeah.
[00:06:38] And you know, I couldn't find schmaltz.
[00:06:39] So I did cream.
[00:06:41] And therefore it's like milk with meat, which is like not kosher.
[00:06:45] And it was very funny as a young Jewish kid growing up.
[00:06:48] I, I, I, that I was like, oh, this episode of seventh heaven is for me.
[00:06:53] Yeah.
[00:06:53] So talk to me about, you know, at what age were you watching this?
[00:06:57] And were you taking these cautionary tales that they were beating into us?
[00:07:01] Like, were you taking them at face value?
[00:07:02] Were you like, oh my God, is this what could really happen?
[00:07:05] Yeah.
[00:07:06] This is like, that's a great, that's a great question.
[00:07:08] Okay.
[00:07:08] I think I would, I definitely was watching this.
[00:07:10] I, right.
[00:07:11] Like I said, I think this was like late elementary to like, probably like freshman year of high
[00:07:16] school.
[00:07:16] Like, I feel like this was like a transition from kid to teenager show for me.
[00:07:21] And like, I do feel like, cause a lot of those messages, like don't have sex, don't do drugs.
[00:07:27] Those were definitely messages I received, but not from like a Christian you'll go to hell
[00:07:31] way for more of just like, yeah, it's more so they are exaggerating it to the nth degree
[00:07:36] where, yeah, I mean, we spoke last time we spoke with Owen about it and like, we talked
[00:07:40] all about dare and anti-drug PSAs that existed both in, you know, face to face as well as like
[00:07:45] in pop culture.
[00:07:47] And this is one though, that I think really jumped to that conclusion before the, the,
[00:07:51] the truth ads came out of like, this is the first step you take to the path to hell.
[00:07:57] Right.
[00:07:58] And I think for me, I think the thing that I really, I think why I was watching it is
[00:08:03] like, I think I really was drawn in by the family dynamic, you know, like I think, you
[00:08:09] know, I'll just spoiler like the, the, those messages, they did not work.
[00:08:13] Love drugs, love sex, you know, like I'm a lot.
[00:08:15] And, uh, and, uh, you're not in school anymore.
[00:08:18] It's okay.
[00:08:19] You can have as much sex as you want.
[00:08:20] It's all fine.
[00:08:23] But I do.
[00:08:24] I think the thing that I really liked was that the tension would happen, but then the
[00:08:28] parents were always really nice in the end.
[00:08:30] Like, even if they were like disappointed, they were nice about it and like loving.
[00:08:34] And I think like that was a piece, I think, I think grappling with those issues, but then
[00:08:41] having no, having the, this is a 45 minute episode that will have a resolution where it's
[00:08:46] all okay.
[00:08:47] Generally was like the important thing that I was getting from it.
[00:08:51] You know what I mean?
[00:08:52] Where you get to like, see it play out, but like, also they're all fine.
[00:08:55] I think that was kind of like the thing.
[00:08:57] That's the thing.
[00:08:57] Yeah.
[00:08:57] It is this sort of like reversion to the status quo of like, well, we've all learned a lesson
[00:09:01] today and we won't speak of it again, but at least now we can sort of have this cultural
[00:09:06] reset.
[00:09:06] It never really felt like they were, I mean, I guess with the exception of Simon, everlasting
[00:09:11] stakes to these bad choices that they make because they were always able to revert to
[00:09:16] the mean.
[00:09:17] That's right.
[00:09:17] That's right.
[00:09:18] And definitely like the relationship of like the older siblings to the youngest ones as
[00:09:22] like a kind of like, I feel like I was really like, I was the younger of two kids
[00:09:27] and I kind of always wanted there to be more kids.
[00:09:30] And I kind of wanted to be an older to a younger.
[00:09:32] And so I, you know, I don't know all this stuff.
[00:09:34] There's definitely something sort of like family shit playing out for me.
[00:09:37] You know, do you have a favorite show of all time?
[00:09:40] This could be either a show you turn to and you're like your time to need or like one
[00:09:43] that you've just like, you've watched one time and it's just always been your number
[00:09:47] one without question.
[00:09:48] That is a freaking hard question.
[00:09:51] Oh yeah.
[00:09:52] Uh, different eras of my life.
[00:09:54] I would have different answers.
[00:09:56] Yes.
[00:09:57] Like, okay.
[00:09:57] Swift come through here.
[00:09:58] Yeah.
[00:09:59] Okay.
[00:09:59] I have to say it's so, it feels a little embarrassing to say, but I think honestly
[00:10:05] gun to my head in this moment, a little, a couple of drinks in favorite show of all time.
[00:10:12] West wing.
[00:10:13] Okay.
[00:10:14] Yes.
[00:10:14] So were you like a day one person hopping on?
[00:10:18] How did you get involved in this?
[00:10:19] Definitely not.
[00:10:20] I was, it was, I think that was like a show that my parents watched.
[00:10:24] And then I feel like in my like teenager hood as like a nerd, you know, like there's, there's
[00:10:30] at some point you discover Aaron Sorkin.
[00:10:32] You know what I mean?
[00:10:33] Like, I think that's, that's a nerd rite of passage.
[00:10:35] And I think, yeah, that was honestly extremely transformative to me of like, you know, the
[00:10:41] most idealistic, what politics could be.
[00:10:45] Like I, I, to the point that I had at some, you could buy the box set of the DVDs.
[00:10:50] I had all the DVDs one through seven that come in like a briefcase as if it's like the nuclear
[00:10:55] codes, you know, like it has like a fake presidential seal, you know, Jeb Bartlett, number one,
[00:11:01] like imaginary president.
[00:11:03] I mean, he solved the Israel Palestine conflict.
[00:11:06] Like, you know, he did, he did a lot of great stuff.
[00:11:08] So yeah, that's interesting.
[00:11:10] Yeah.
[00:11:10] I, I sort of found my way into West wing backwards.
[00:11:14] My first Sorkin experience was actually with the social network.
[00:11:18] Oh, I mean, I love that movie also.
[00:11:21] I love it.
[00:11:22] I mean, I honestly, I'm a fucking sucker for Sorkin, dude.
[00:11:25] I'm a sucker for him.
[00:11:26] Did you watch the newsroom?
[00:11:27] I even watched the newsroom and I even liked the newsroom.
[00:11:31] Okay.
[00:11:31] See that?
[00:11:31] Yeah.
[00:11:32] That's a high barometer.
[00:11:33] I literally liked the newsroom.
[00:11:35] Yeah.
[00:11:35] No, I actually, you know what?
[00:11:36] I'm lying.
[00:11:37] I did.
[00:11:37] That was not my first exposure to Sorkin because I did briefly back in 2006.
[00:11:42] I remember it clear as day.
[00:11:44] There was this whole narrative of there were these two NBC shows that both took place.
[00:11:48] At a variety comedy show.
[00:11:49] And there was 30 rock and there was studio 60 on the sun.
[00:11:52] And I love studios.
[00:11:53] Okay.
[00:11:54] Studio 60 on the sun.
[00:11:55] It was a really good show.
[00:12:00] I don't know if I go that far, but I think it's better than people remember it.
[00:12:03] I think.
[00:12:04] Good.
[00:12:05] What even was the criticism?
[00:12:06] Cause I feel like this was also probably in an era where I, I swear, I'm like downloading
[00:12:11] shows from iTunes onto my iPod.
[00:12:14] Like that's how I'm watching.
[00:12:15] It was.
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:16] If I'm remembering correctly, I mean, first off, I think it's the idea that like for what
[00:12:20] represents a better slice of life of working in a comedy show, 30 rock is more wacky and
[00:12:26] zany, but like the fact that it was created by Tina Fey and obviously backed by Lauren Michaels
[00:12:29] does capture a bit more than studio 60.
[00:12:33] I remember the main critique of studio 60 being that like the actual show within a show was
[00:12:38] not that funny of like, oh, this is what they're trying to make at the end of the day.
[00:12:42] And it's this, but like looking back, especially with the, uh, the, the recent death of Matthew
[00:12:47] Perry, like having him and Bradley Whitford helm a show together.
[00:12:50] It's pretty damn remarkable in retrospect.
[00:12:52] I loved it.
[00:12:53] I loved it.
[00:12:54] I, I, I truly loved it.
[00:12:56] And I feel like that show.
[00:12:57] So the other thing is about me is that I'm like an absolute sucker for romantic storylines
[00:13:03] and shows like the, will they want me?
[00:13:05] Won't they like, I want it every time I'm like excited when it works out, even though it's
[00:13:09] very obvious that this was going to happen.
[00:13:10] Like, I love it.
[00:13:11] And studio 60, they, they wrapped all those up so quick, you know?
[00:13:15] And, uh, they saw, they're like, Oh, I think we're going to this, this, uh, five-year
[00:13:20] play and exactly work it out right now.
[00:13:22] Yeah.
[00:13:22] But I could have followed him.
[00:13:24] I could have followed him for more.
[00:13:26] Were you a, uh, a Josh and Donna shipper on the West wing?
[00:13:29] Of course.
[00:13:30] No, actually though.
[00:13:31] Do you know that there's an era where it's like Josh and, um, Mary Louise Parker has
[00:13:37] a character.
[00:13:38] Oh my God.
[00:13:39] Weeds.
[00:13:40] Also, let's come back to that.
[00:13:41] Oh yeah.
[00:13:41] We'll come back.
[00:13:42] The thing is, I have a huge crush on Mary Louise Parker.
[00:13:44] She's so hot and cool and sexy in every single one of her things ever.
[00:13:48] And her, and she plays basically like a sort of like equivalent of,
[00:13:52] head of Planned Parenthood or something like that.
[00:13:55] And, and her character is so hot and cool for Josh and way, I mean, way out of his
[00:13:59] league.
[00:13:59] It's honestly like, well, but then Donna gets really hot.
[00:14:02] Like I'd say cooler by the time they actually get together.
[00:14:07] Cause she's all like powerful in like one of the campaigns.
[00:14:11] Um, yes.
[00:14:13] So anyway, I was a Josh and Donna shipper, but I, I, if I, if I had my number one pick,
[00:14:18] it probably would have been Josh and Mary Louise Parker's character.
[00:14:21] But once that's over, it's like, obviously it's gotta be Josh and Donna.
[00:14:25] You know, let's talk about weeds here.
[00:14:27] Cause, uh, yeah.
[00:14:27] Was it just that you were like following Mary Louise Parker?
[00:14:30] Was it to your point?
[00:14:31] I didn't realize that.
[00:14:31] You weren't taken to seven heaven lessons correctly.
[00:14:34] Right.
[00:14:35] That's like, it's like, we have to keep in mind.
[00:14:36] I didn't understand that I had a huge crush on Mary Louise Parker, but I definitely did.
[00:14:41] Like, that's definitely like an underlying huge part.
[00:14:43] I also think at the time I had never smoked weed and it turns out that's one of my other
[00:14:48] big loves in life along with women.
[00:14:50] So, um, yeah, I just didn't know what was happening for me, but I love that show.
[00:14:54] Like a lot.
[00:14:55] I really enjoyed that show.
[00:14:57] I mean, I think for the first little while, I still think, especially in retrospect, like
[00:15:00] once they burn down the town and leave the rest, they get a little bit like, yeah,
[00:15:05] like, yeah, wait, exactly.
[00:15:06] We're in Mexico and they're, they're building the tunnel between Mexico and California.
[00:15:10] Like what is that?
[00:15:12] There's only so many times that we can see like, uh, Nancy Botwin sip on a straw for your
[00:15:16] like, it feels like we've lost the plot here.
[00:15:18] I can watch Nancy Botwin sip on a straw all day long.
[00:15:21] Like that's what I'm saying.
[00:15:22] But yes, no, but I, I like, cause the other thing, another one of the shows on my list
[00:15:27] here is Desperate Housewives.
[00:15:29] I feel like I do really like the genre of suburban mom goes bad, you know, like that, that
[00:15:37] definitely works for me.
[00:15:38] And I think the, yeah, I feel like the weeds, I don't know.
[00:15:43] I mean, it's all the things it's like the suburbs, like, especially I grew up in like
[00:15:47] classic suburbs, you know, and it's like suburbs gone bad.
[00:15:50] The, the, the, the stuff that's below the surface, you know, the like, and yeah, I don't
[00:15:56] know.
[00:15:57] I just, I just, the, the, the chaos keeps ensuing, but it reverts back.
[00:16:01] I also think there's a, there's a very memorable scene to me in weeds where she goes to some
[00:16:07] like fancy, like Hamptons-y type party.
[00:16:10] And she's like, oh, these people are buying $50,000 bottles of wine just because it's $50,000.
[00:16:17] So she takes her regular weed and she's like, oh, this is exclusive.
[00:16:20] And you have to get a weakness and you can only get one.
[00:16:23] And like, I remember thinking like, oh my God, capitalism is so fucked up.
[00:16:27] You know what I mean?
[00:16:28] Like, I feel like you get these like, uh, bursts of wisdom.
[00:16:32] Like that one really stuck with me of like, oh, fancy stuff is cool.
[00:16:37] Cause it's because it's exclusive and fancy.
[00:16:39] You know what I mean?
[00:16:40] Like that was like a lesson that I learned from weeds, you know?
[00:16:43] Have you ever seen, uh, the HBO TV mini series of angels in America with Mary Louise Parker?
[00:16:51] Oh, oh my God.
[00:16:52] I didn't know she was in that.
[00:16:54] Mike, I really just now the part of the reason I'm drunk is because my friend picked me up
[00:16:57] from the airport and we went to the bar and we were talking about how we saw angels in
[00:17:01] America together.
[00:17:02] We saw the play version where it's like a million hours, but I actually haven't seen the HBO
[00:17:06] show.
[00:17:06] And if I had known that Mary Louise Parker is one of the characters, who is she?
[00:17:09] So she's Harper.
[00:17:10] She is, she's Joe's husband.
[00:17:12] Uh, and then, and then Justin Kirk.
[00:17:14] Oh my God.
[00:17:14] I have to watch.
[00:17:15] I'm going to watch that right after this.
[00:17:16] I'm never going to sleep tonight.
[00:17:17] Okay.
[00:17:17] And then Justin Kirk who plays Andy, the brother-in-law in weeds.
[00:17:22] He is prior prior Walter.
[00:17:25] Oh my God.
[00:17:26] I have so much more of an interest in watching this HBO special now.
[00:17:29] Oh my gosh.
[00:17:30] It's very, I recommend it to everyone out there.
[00:17:31] Yeah.
[00:17:31] Their chemistry.
[00:17:33] So good.
[00:17:33] I mean, it's really interesting because they also like, they, I mean, for those that haven't
[00:17:37] seen angels in America, like their two characters barely interact with each other.
[00:17:40] They do at some points, but like barely do.
[00:17:42] But yeah, it's really interesting, obviously compared to weeds and especially compared to
[00:17:45] like, I'll let you talk about that.
[00:17:46] Will they won't they?
[00:17:47] Certainly as they were getting along there and the, the visage of Nancy's dead husband
[00:17:51] just disappears in the rear view mirror.
[00:17:53] They were really teasing at that.
[00:17:56] Oh, sure.
[00:17:57] Well, not even, I mean, I feel like in maybe the last episode, they like have sex on the
[00:18:00] lawn.
[00:18:01] Like, like it's like, I mean, it eventually wills, but in a very won't.
[00:18:06] Some other shows that are on your list here.
[00:18:20] Okay.
[00:18:20] Well, this is related because another big show on my list, probably very much up there
[00:18:24] in the favorite shows crossover character.
[00:18:27] Mary Louise Parker's husband in weeds.
[00:18:30] What else is he in?
[00:18:31] Tragic figure.
[00:18:32] He always is born to die.
[00:18:34] Like how he dies in Grey's Anatomy.
[00:18:36] Another one of my shows.
[00:18:38] Yeah.
[00:18:38] Grey's is a show that gets talked about often here.
[00:18:42] It is one that I'm still trying to learn about, but talk to me about what you love about
[00:18:46] and here's the question.
[00:18:48] When did you stop watching Grey's Anatomy?
[00:18:50] Because I feel like everyone has that point.
[00:18:51] Okay.
[00:18:52] Yeah.
[00:18:52] I think I watched.
[00:18:53] Is this a spoiler?
[00:18:55] Like, yeah, maybe like spoilery.
[00:18:56] I mean, I'm not going to provide spoilers from my perspective.
[00:19:00] I can tell you what I know, which is very little.
[00:19:02] Let's just say one of the main leads to my knowledge is dead now.
[00:19:07] And I didn't see that happen.
[00:19:09] But I watched like a lot of the stuff before that.
[00:19:12] Like I watched.
[00:19:13] Yeah.
[00:19:13] I probably watched.
[00:19:15] I watched through the whole like private practice era, spinoff era.
[00:19:19] I watched a lot of those.
[00:19:20] And some point in there after I probably stopped, but I watched probably like at least
[00:19:23] I watched the plane crash.
[00:19:25] I watched a lot.
[00:19:27] I watched a lot.
[00:19:28] Okay.
[00:19:29] I want to paint the scene for you.
[00:19:30] My peak Grey's Anatomy era.
[00:19:32] Again, this is still in the era.
[00:19:33] A lot of this stuff happened where my dad gave me the password to the Apple ID that we
[00:19:39] shared as a family.
[00:19:40] And he didn't seem to care that I was downloading one ninety nine at a time.
[00:19:45] And so I downloaded like probably the first two seasons of Grey's Anatomy in that method.
[00:19:51] And I would watch them on my video iPod with this like these speakers that I got from my
[00:19:56] bat mitzvah.
[00:19:56] And I would like lay on the floor of my bedroom on like a blue carpet like watching me.
[00:20:01] So like this was this was the format.
[00:20:05] And I absolutely loved it.
[00:20:06] Meredith Grey.
[00:20:07] I mean, compelling character like like the doctors.
[00:20:11] There's I don't even know.
[00:20:13] I think it's got a sorkiny energy.
[00:20:16] You know, people are walking around.
[00:20:17] Stuff's happening.
[00:20:18] There's like emotional depth.
[00:20:20] I think Meredith Grey is kind of the classic.
[00:20:23] What's the thing like pixie pixie girl?
[00:20:25] Manit pixie dream girl.
[00:20:27] Yeah.
[00:20:27] Manit pixie dream girl.
[00:20:28] She's definitely like got that energy again.
[00:20:30] A type that, you know, all of us who who like girls.
[00:20:33] That's probably a type that we enjoyed in that era.
[00:20:36] And, you know, that that all worked for me.
[00:20:39] Uh, that was.
[00:20:42] Yeah, for some reason, I feel like that show really was like a kind of like.
[00:20:47] Again, a lot of these for me are like the shows that kind of transition to adulthood shows.
[00:20:51] I feel like that one again was like, oh, and now I'm watching a kind of adult show.
[00:20:56] Like, but it is like life and death situations.
[00:20:59] I mean, was there anything that you like learned incorrectly about medicine or anything?
[00:21:04] Because these are like grave situations.
[00:21:05] But also once you get to a certain age, you're like, oh, there's this is so much bullshit that
[00:21:10] they're just kind of throwing out there for dramatic effect.
[00:21:12] Yeah.
[00:21:13] Well, I mean.
[00:21:15] I'm so my uncle is a doctor and I once I once asked him about doctor shows and he was like,
[00:21:23] I just feel like they're having a lot more fun than I'm having.
[00:21:25] And so that seems right.
[00:21:28] What did I learn from it?
[00:21:29] I mean, why did I like it so much?
[00:21:32] Also, it has a really good soundtrack.
[00:21:33] I feel like that's definitely part of it.
[00:21:35] I think honestly, I actually think it wasn't about the medicine or like any of that.
[00:21:39] It was about the like emotional shit.
[00:21:41] Like, I think like the Meredith and Christina friendship and like they're kind of like dark
[00:21:46] twisty thing.
[00:21:47] Like, you know, again, as an early teen, you're very like, oh, I've got my emotions and I'm
[00:21:52] like very special and deep for having them.
[00:21:54] And, you know, you see, I feel like they're kind of like teenager-y adults where they have
[00:22:01] kind of these feelings and they're not really handling them well.
[00:22:04] Yeah, that is such a good point that I think it's a great lesson to kind of teach people
[00:22:09] that are going through these emotions.
[00:22:10] Is that like this is yeah, you probably get a better handle on them as you, you know,
[00:22:15] end up making the move to adulthood.
[00:22:17] But like at the same time, it's a reminder that this is being human, not even just being
[00:22:21] a teenager or someone on the precipice of experiencing this.
[00:22:25] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:26] And like there's a lot of good also, I think like the intergenerational trauma that's like
[00:22:32] happening there with like her and her mom feels very like and to be clear, this is all
[00:22:36] me editorializing now.
[00:22:38] At the time, I'm like, I don't know, hot doctors and show and whatever, you know, but
[00:22:42] I really do think the Meredith Gray like dark twisty thing.
[00:22:47] And then also, I guess I was probably in high school and in a very like competitive,
[00:22:51] probably like my like starting the academic competitiveness, which is also like a big part
[00:22:55] of it of them being like very like, you know, competitive with one another.
[00:23:00] But then ultimately friends like they're these are all like beautiful ensemble shows at the
[00:23:04] end of the day, you know, I like that shit.
[00:23:06] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:08] I mean, yeah, it seemed like that's also a bit of a carryover for you.
[00:23:10] Is that like, do you like shows that are around a group of people?
[00:23:15] There is that sort of communal aspect as much as like Wisteria Lane is not necessarily
[00:23:21] the most, you know, like let's all get together.
[00:23:25] Rah, rah, sis, goombah.
[00:23:26] Like they are all living on the same street together.
[00:23:29] And so it seems like you kind of you're kind of looking for these shows that maybe are based
[00:23:33] out of like some sort of bubble in a manner of speaking.
[00:23:36] What I'm also realizing is that these are all shows that also my parents watched that
[00:23:42] I didn't watch with them, but we were both watching them.
[00:23:46] But not like like like a hilarious, like weird thing is that like I know that my dad thinks
[00:23:52] Ellen Pompeo is hot, which is like definitely like not our family dynamic in general.
[00:23:57] But like that was just like a thing, which is like I was like fine, I'd say in my opinion.
[00:24:02] But, you know, whatever.
[00:24:04] OK, and he was watching it and I was watching it, but we were not watching it together.
[00:24:08] And the same thing was true with Desperate Housewives.
[00:24:10] Like my mom was watching Desperate Housewives and I knew it.
[00:24:13] And again, I'm downloading it on my video iPod and I'm watching it by myself.
[00:24:17] And so like that's some stuff that's happening for me.
[00:24:21] Yeah.
[00:24:22] So that was just some stuff about me.
[00:24:24] And I think there's something there where again, it's like a lot of these core shows
[00:24:27] like I'm going to be an adult.
[00:24:29] I'm going to watch what my parents are watching, but I'm going to have my own teenager experience.
[00:24:32] You know, was there a show at one point where you had like put them on to it,
[00:24:38] where you sort of repaid the favor?
[00:24:40] OK, so.
[00:24:45] OK, they're OK.
[00:24:46] I think the show that this most relates to is is Heroes.
[00:24:51] You must be a Heroes guy.
[00:24:53] Yeah.
[00:24:53] Well, again, well, it's like we've talked about it.
[00:24:55] So you always put that in quotations yet another NBC show.
[00:24:59] So and the writer's strike, you know that that.
[00:25:04] OK, so me and my mom.
[00:25:05] OK, obviously, I also was writing this list the night after Thanksgiving.
[00:25:09] So I'm very in a in my family relationships feeling.
[00:25:14] But OK, I was literally it's giving thanks.
[00:25:16] Yes, exactly.
[00:25:17] I was really into Heroes.
[00:25:19] My mom and I is my mom worked part time during high school and she didn't work on Tuesdays.
[00:25:25] And on Tuesday, she would like pick me up from school or something.
[00:25:28] And there was, I guess, a couple hours.
[00:25:29] And then we would go for there was some period of time where every Tuesday we went and got
[00:25:33] sushi together.
[00:25:34] And I told her about what happened in Heroes the night before.
[00:25:38] It was like our main content.
[00:25:40] And you were basically doing like an in-person podcast where you were just kind of recapping
[00:25:44] what happened to her.
[00:25:46] Yes.
[00:25:46] And I still love that format.
[00:25:48] Like I have a lot of friends.
[00:25:49] It's more like my friends that don't watch reality TV, but would enjoy hearing about reality
[00:25:53] TV.
[00:25:54] And I'm like, let me tell you about what happened on X on the Beach.
[00:25:57] You know what I'm saying?
[00:25:57] And so Heroes, like I save the cheerleader, save the world.
[00:26:02] I feel like that show, if the writer's strike hadn't happened, I feel like that would have
[00:26:05] been like one of my favorite shows of all time.
[00:26:08] But then for those of you who weren't familiar with the writer's strike.
[00:26:12] Or at least yeah, exactly.
[00:26:14] Then the one, not the most recent one, the one back in like 2007, I think it was.
[00:26:18] Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:19] Exactly.
[00:26:19] It really like then.
[00:26:21] I don't know.
[00:26:21] The whole show got really screwed up.
[00:26:23] Yeah.
[00:26:23] Yeah.
[00:26:24] I mean, this was also a show.
[00:26:25] It's really interesting.
[00:26:26] And especially coming from the world of reality TV and seeing like their relationship with their
[00:26:30] fans.
[00:26:30] It was interesting to see how Heroes responded to theirs, which was like, oh, you like these
[00:26:35] characters?
[00:26:36] We're really going to push them forward at the cost of other ones where it's like, oh, you
[00:26:40] really like Peter Petrelli?
[00:26:42] Well, great.
[00:26:43] We're going to make him the most overpowered man in the world and then take away all his powers
[00:26:46] and give him all his powers back again.
[00:26:48] And like, yeah, it was clear that it was almost the opposite of what you like in terms of storytelling
[00:26:53] where it started as an ensemble drama and everyone was scattered to the wind.
[00:26:57] And I love that.
[00:26:58] Right.
[00:26:58] I love I loved the like interconnection of like, oh, my God, he's her father.
[00:27:04] Yeah.
[00:27:05] Yeah.
[00:27:05] But then eventually it sort of then became, OK, now that they're all tied together, well,
[00:27:09] we're going to have to really push these ones forward as like and then it's also tough with
[00:27:12] superpowers as well as to there's always got to be a bigger bad.
[00:27:15] So it's like, OK, how do we scale up their powers?
[00:27:17] But not in a way that like makes them liable to take over the entire world if they wanted
[00:27:22] to.
[00:27:23] So, you know, Josh and I watched we watched the first season last year for down the hatch.
[00:27:29] And it certainly has its good moments.
[00:27:32] I do think maybe there's a little bit of like nostalgia goggles on superhero style towards
[00:27:37] it.
[00:27:37] But like it was definitely solid, especially for the first season of a show like it.
[00:27:41] It went pretty audacious.
[00:27:43] I have not rewatched it since that time.
[00:27:45] But my memory is that that first season is like so good.
[00:27:49] Like that's the and like genius and like all the different.
[00:27:53] Well, I just I was so I was so into it.
[00:27:55] I loved it.
[00:27:56] OK, you brought up down the hatch.
[00:27:58] Yeah.
[00:27:58] Should we talk about Lost?
[00:27:59] I mean, I mean, listen, you were mentioning.
[00:28:03] Desperate Housewives, you were mentioning Grey's Anatomy, you were mentioning Heroes.
[00:28:06] And it's like there's one particular ABC show that has yet to be mentioned at this point.
[00:28:11] I wasn't going to pull out the bandaid.
[00:28:13] I was I was cursely waiting for you to do such.
[00:28:15] No, I mean, probably Lost was like the number one show of this era for me, for sure.
[00:28:21] I mean, it is the best.
[00:28:22] And we've DMed about this.
[00:28:23] I am a big down the hatch fan.
[00:28:25] And so I haven't I didn't watch didn't listen to all that.
[00:28:28] But at some point I fell off in the down the hatch listening.
[00:28:30] But I listened to a lot of the episodes and I'm a little bit obsessed with you and I'm
[00:28:34] a little bit obsessed with Josh.
[00:28:35] And that's just like one of our things.
[00:28:37] And we just have to move through that to be friends.
[00:28:40] And I love Lost.
[00:28:42] I mean, OK, I started watching Lost.
[00:28:44] My best friend, Miranda, who I just saw and her two year old baby.
[00:28:48] We've all gotten so old.
[00:28:50] And she watched the first two seasons of Lost and she was my best friend.
[00:28:54] And she just told me everything that happened.
[00:28:56] And I remember she did what you did with heroes to your mom.
[00:28:59] Exactly.
[00:28:59] And I'm like, there's a hatch.
[00:29:01] Like, I don't know.
[00:29:02] Like, it just sounded crazy.
[00:29:03] But I was like interested.
[00:29:05] And then again, this is another one.
[00:29:07] Video iPod, an important part of my watching journey.
[00:29:10] How many gigs was this video iPod?
[00:29:12] You're storing so many episodes of TV.
[00:29:14] I feel like so much.
[00:29:15] And I probably spent like hundreds of dollars.
[00:29:19] That's how they get you.
[00:29:20] It's those microtransactions.
[00:29:21] Oh, yeah.
[00:29:22] Oh, yeah.
[00:29:23] Like bad.
[00:29:24] Definitely bad.
[00:29:25] I mean, Lost.
[00:29:26] Lost is so good.
[00:29:28] I mean, it's it's it's it's flawed.
[00:29:30] We all know it's flawed.
[00:29:31] We know it had mysteries that it didn't know the answers to.
[00:29:33] But aren't we all?
[00:29:35] Aren't we fucking all?
[00:29:37] And in the sideways, it all worked out.
[00:29:39] You know, it's like everyone who before they got on the plane was doing fucked up shit.
[00:29:42] And like, they're all broken people.
[00:29:44] But what's mattered is they came to the island at that particular time and and made them who
[00:29:48] they were to sit on the church.
[00:29:50] That's exactly right.
[00:29:52] Like, don't tell me what I can't do.
[00:29:55] You know, like it's just I I mean, it's so good.
[00:29:58] I don't even know what to say about it.
[00:29:59] Like, I really did love it.
[00:30:00] I really again, I for me, it's all this is why I like reality TV, too.
[00:30:04] It's all about the human drama.
[00:30:06] Like, it's all about the human backstories and human flaws and the relationships.
[00:30:09] And Lost is all about that.
[00:30:11] You know, it's like all the things.
[00:30:12] Give me your favorite character at this moment, if I were to ask it of you.
[00:30:18] Hard.
[00:30:19] I mean, I think Kate was my ultimate like emotional, like in the universe where J.J.
[00:30:24] Abrams stayed on and Kate is the main character.
[00:30:26] I think it's my favorite show ever of all time.
[00:30:28] Forever, forever, forever, forever.
[00:30:30] Like, yeah, I mean that to me, she's like, yeah, she's the fucking badass one.
[00:30:35] She knows how to do all this stuff.
[00:30:36] She can track.
[00:30:37] You don't know why.
[00:30:38] You know, like she like.
[00:30:43] Yeah, it's Kate.
[00:30:43] I mean, like I'd say Kate, Kate's son, like the women characters, especially Juliette.
[00:30:50] Really, really speaks to me.
[00:30:51] I mean, Juliette, she's she ultimately is an other.
[00:30:54] And so I'll never really care about her as much as some of the other ones.
[00:30:57] But yes.
[00:30:59] Yeah.
[00:31:00] Kate, too.
[00:31:01] Exactly.
[00:31:01] You're like sticking with you're an 815 originalist.
[00:31:03] I'm an 815.
[00:31:04] Crashed on the island.
[00:31:05] And specifically front of plane.
[00:31:07] You know, it's like, what's her name?
[00:31:09] No, I don't see a stand.
[00:31:10] Yeah, I mean, yeah, sure.
[00:31:12] Like, yes.
[00:31:13] But like, come on, never going to care.
[00:31:14] I mean, if you want an ultimate representation about that, we are flawed as humans.
[00:31:17] Look at no further than Michelle Rodriguez as Anna Lucia Cortez.
[00:31:20] Yeah, that's right.
[00:31:21] That's right.
[00:31:22] But I feel so she wanted to be on the show, you know, and it's good that they it's good
[00:31:26] the letter, you know, I feel.
[00:31:28] Yeah.
[00:31:29] Yeah.
[00:31:29] So you got into Lost One like around like season three or so.
[00:31:32] Was this like later?
[00:31:33] I think season three was probably airing, but I went back and watched the first ones
[00:31:37] and probably like caught up in them.
[00:31:39] And then it was like there was this I took chemistry in.
[00:31:43] I was in ninth grade.
[00:31:45] I was in ninth grade and I graduated high school in 2010.
[00:31:49] So this must have been.
[00:31:53] 2006, 2006, 2007.
[00:31:55] And there was like a cool guy in the chemistry class who was like older and he was watching
[00:31:59] Lost and me and my my friend Miranda, we were like the nerds in the chemistry class.
[00:32:05] And he was like the older, not nerd, like kind of like, you know, like not good at school
[00:32:10] kid.
[00:32:10] And the three of us would talk about Lost after, you know, so that was this guy with
[00:32:14] like a five o'clock shadow.
[00:32:16] Yeah.
[00:32:16] Like that's how he is in my head, too.
[00:32:18] But like, I don't know if that's real.
[00:32:19] But like, yeah, and I don't remember his name.
[00:32:23] Um, yeah.
[00:32:24] So it was that era.
[00:32:25] But I really like, yeah, really stuck with it all the way through the sideways and the
[00:32:30] but I remember actually I listened to the down the hash ones about that because I'm like,
[00:32:34] I don't even remember what that was like.
[00:32:36] You know what I mean?
[00:32:37] Like I was a little like blurry and young in the memory of that, you know?
[00:32:41] Yeah.
[00:32:41] That's the season six is tough.
[00:32:43] I mean, it's definitely the one that I was the blurriest on because it's the one that
[00:32:45] I've rewatched the least just because yeah, it is certainly regarded.
[00:32:49] And I tend to agree as like the weakest season.
[00:32:52] So I'm yet less like if I want to spend as much time here because even though on island
[00:32:56] stuff as well as like really hit or miss by comparison.
[00:33:00] Yeah.
[00:33:00] Although it does all come back because CJ Craig is the mom.
[00:33:04] She's mother.
[00:33:05] Yeah, she's mother.
[00:33:06] Yeah.
[00:33:07] She is quite literally mother.
[00:33:08] I was not a not a great appearance for Alice and Janney.
[00:33:12] One of the very rare misappearances, but it's not her fault.
[00:33:15] It's not her fault.
[00:33:16] It's not her fault.
[00:33:17] But I loved, you know, I really loved the era.
[00:33:20] My favorite era of all that stuff is like, I mean, the first season is like one of the
[00:33:24] best seasons of TV ever.
[00:33:25] Yeah.
[00:33:26] But then I talk about another show that like just comes in hot for the first season and
[00:33:29] makes so many bold choices and is able to, for the most part, succeed on them.
[00:33:33] So fucking good.
[00:33:34] And then I really I love all the Daniel Faraday time time loops.
[00:33:40] I love time loops.
[00:33:45] Other time.
[00:33:45] I love the like Adam and Eve bodies, like understanding that, like all that shit.
[00:33:51] I studied human evolution in history.
[00:33:54] Yeah.
[00:33:54] So I'm like, I yeah, like that.
[00:33:56] You like loop back around and like understand the deep past in the present level.
[00:34:01] Yeah.
[00:34:01] I was going to say, does that just like general tenant carry into being a fan of like sci-fi
[00:34:08] pieces that deal with a lot of that time travel?
[00:34:10] Definitely.
[00:34:11] But it's all in the it's like.
[00:34:14] I think it's all related of like, I liked him.
[00:34:16] I like human evolution because it's history.
[00:34:19] It's like the intersection of like history, science and like human interest, you know,
[00:34:23] and same with these kinds of shows where it's it's it's science, but it's or like there's
[00:34:29] like a science element, but it's deeply connected to human stuff.
[00:34:32] Like my PhD is about humans and Neanderthals interbreeding and how that affects our biology
[00:34:38] today.
[00:34:38] Like that's like the shit I love of like there's this crazy stuff that happened in
[00:34:42] the insanely deep past.
[00:34:43] We're talking about like 40,000 years ago.
[00:34:45] And yet that affects your biology today, Mike Bloom and my biology today.
[00:34:49] Like that's insane.
[00:34:50] You know, and that's yeah.
[00:34:52] Like I love that shit.
[00:34:52] You know, have you ever watched the X-Files?
[00:34:55] No.
[00:34:56] Okay.
[00:34:57] Oh my God.
[00:34:57] Which by the way, Breaking Bad, another one of my shows I didn't even write on my list.
[00:35:00] Actually, that's probably like.
[00:35:02] I mean, listen, I was going to say that's a constant example of like that suburbian lifestyle.
[00:35:05] Now, granted, it has a little bit more lasting effects than the typical stuff you're into.
[00:35:09] But yeah, X-Files.
[00:35:10] I mean, what you're speaking to is granted, it's a little more fantastical, but like the
[00:35:14] pairing is that you have Fox Mulder, who is like this.
[00:35:18] He is a government agent, but he is certainly much more of a quote unquote believer.
[00:35:22] But then you have Scully, who is like this hardcore scientist.
[00:35:26] And at least early on, they tried to bridge it into like some sort of scientific explanation
[00:35:30] behind things.
[00:35:31] Sometimes there is like quite literally elements of human evolution involved.
[00:35:34] Oh, I think you'd really enjoy it.
[00:35:36] Listen, I would also say Jillian Anderson is also could could be up there with your Mary
[00:35:41] Louise Parkers and your Evangeline Lilly is like she's great.
[00:35:45] She's fantastic.
[00:35:46] You're getting the type.
[00:35:46] Okay.
[00:35:47] I got to check that out.
[00:35:48] I got to check that out.
[00:35:48] Wait, I feel like I had something else to say about like Lost.
[00:35:53] I don't know all that stuff.
[00:35:54] I love that stuff.
[00:35:55] I really it's all that to me, the core of all the things it's people.
[00:36:00] But then I love to put it in like the complex circumstance, you know, not a hot take at
[00:36:05] all.
[00:36:05] But like that.
[00:36:06] Yeah.
[00:36:07] Is there is there a show that you have yet to see that you feel like you should or that
[00:36:13] you really want to?
[00:36:13] It just obviously is has not fallen into your queue just yet.
[00:36:18] Wow, that's such a good question.
[00:36:22] Could you name some shows that are like that for other people?
[00:36:25] And I'll tell you.
[00:36:26] I mean, for me, it's The Sopranos.
[00:36:27] I've never seen it before.
[00:36:28] I know I want to.
[00:36:31] So in my top surgery recovery, I watched all of The Sopranos and I'll just tell you, you
[00:36:37] should watch it.
[00:36:38] It is as good as people say.
[00:36:39] OK, it's definitely I mean, it has the thing of the same era of Lost where it's like there's
[00:36:44] so many episodes like, you know, it's not even more.
[00:36:47] But it is.
[00:36:50] It's so weird because it's like my my political beliefs are very like forefront for me as a
[00:36:57] person.
[00:36:57] Right.
[00:36:58] And it's so funny how much I really was so drawn into The Sopranos universe, despite
[00:37:03] having like not a single relatable character to me, like in any way, shape or form, you
[00:37:08] know, but.
[00:37:10] You know, I don't know.
[00:37:11] I came out.
[00:37:11] I was drinking with I was drinking Johnny Walker scotch.
[00:37:15] I was like, like, I don't know.
[00:37:17] It just is really good.
[00:37:19] And it's just also, you know, amazing acting, obviously, is like a huge part of it.
[00:37:22] Hmm.
[00:37:23] Sopranos is super good.
[00:37:24] But no, I've watched that.
[00:37:25] So check not on the list.
[00:37:28] Yeah, I'm trying to think of like other ones that other people have.
[00:37:31] What are some of those like core ones?
[00:37:35] I mean, I've certainly I've gotten people on this podcast onto succession as a I saw
[00:37:40] that.
[00:37:40] Loved it.
[00:37:41] Saw that.
[00:37:41] Love it.
[00:37:41] OK, here's what's OK.
[00:37:42] So I am huge 30 rocker like love 30 rock.
[00:37:45] Love the office.
[00:37:47] Randomly have not seen a single episode of Parks and Recreation.
[00:37:50] OK, I think I think you'd really like it, especially from this aspect of, again, this
[00:37:55] community.
[00:37:56] Yeah.
[00:37:57] First season, like both of those shows is a little hit and miss.
[00:38:00] But like once they find their tone in season two, I personally love it.
[00:38:04] Now, look, I think certainly perhaps like appeal and watching things around the government
[00:38:09] for some people might be at an all time low.
[00:38:11] But I think also if you're looking for an opportunity to explore, like what small government
[00:38:15] and optimism and joy can bring it to a community, I absolutely recommend it.
[00:38:21] So where does that fall?
[00:38:23] OK, we've got like West Wing, which I've seen.
[00:38:25] Then there's Parks and Rec, which I haven't seen and Veep, which I also haven't seen.
[00:38:29] Where are those on like the doom scroll?
[00:38:31] Like I think is probably like it's like dark, right?
[00:38:34] Yeah.
[00:38:35] So Veep is dark, but it's so cathartic at the same time.
[00:38:39] Like I think if you want just an incredibly good, like scorching takedown of the people
[00:38:47] that are involved in the front and back rooms of politics, Veep is maybe one of the best
[00:38:53] written shows I've ever experienced.
[00:38:56] Like it is just so wild.
[00:38:59] It is such a good cast.
[00:39:00] However, I could absolutely see considering that Parks and Rec, you could sort of like
[00:39:04] displace your mind to be like, well, we don't really meet anybody in the White House.
[00:39:08] It just takes place in Pawnee, Indiana.
[00:39:09] Like if if you feel like it's getting a bit too close to the throne in a manner of speaking
[00:39:14] with Veep, then I would say definitely, you know, leave it by the wayside.
[00:39:19] But if that's OK with you, like God.
[00:39:21] OK, I think I think I'm probably in like a dark enough mood that that will probably be
[00:39:27] right for me.
[00:39:27] So I think that's probably the one.
[00:39:29] Yeah, it's sort of in the sort of Seinfeld and even successiony mold.
[00:39:33] We're like, OK, there really isn't anyone there really isn't anyone to root for.
[00:39:37] Like they're all pretty bad people, which is why they kind of all work in this high level
[00:39:41] of politics in the first place.
[00:39:42] But the comedy is involved in that.
[00:39:44] OK, as a New York Jew, another big flaw in my catalog is I've like never watched Seinfeld
[00:39:50] and people just say references at me and like and it's you're correct.
[00:39:54] Like that's correct to stereotype me as someone that would have seen Seinfeld, but I have
[00:39:58] not.
[00:39:58] I have seen some of Herb Your Enthusiasm and it's like too intense.
[00:40:05] It's too intensely cringe for me.
[00:40:07] Yes.
[00:40:08] Also Arrested Development.
[00:40:09] Wow, there's so many shows.
[00:40:10] OK, yeah.
[00:40:11] OK, so you haven't seen Arrested Development?
[00:40:12] No, no, I have seen Arrested Development.
[00:40:13] I love Arrested Development.
[00:40:14] Yeah, like Larson is incredible.
[00:40:16] So yeah, Seinfeld, obviously not as cringy as Curb because Curb had the commercial free
[00:40:22] runtime like they really like to sit down in those scenes and just.
[00:40:25] I can't even I like I literally have to cover my eyes when I watch it.
[00:40:30] It makes me so uncomfortable.
[00:40:31] Now, what I would say is that Seinfeld certainly has its misses sometimes and sometimes does
[00:40:35] sort of show the mark of its era, but especially when it starts getting kicked off.
[00:40:40] And I speak as someone who only recently got into Seinfeld.
[00:40:42] I say recently.
[00:40:42] It was probably like 10 years ago that I watched Seinfeld.
[00:40:44] But that is recent for Seinfeld.
[00:40:46] Yeah.
[00:40:47] Yeah, I guess because of the grand spectrum of my life, my own timeline of human evolution.
[00:40:51] But like as someone who has watched it, like it real when it's good, it is so good.
[00:40:56] Like and it has like an awkward like five episode first season.
[00:41:00] But once you get past that, even stuff starting with seasons two and three before it really
[00:41:04] gets going in four, there's like some stuff and you'll do the sort of consistent Leo pointing
[00:41:10] at the screen meme of like, OK, now I understand what it means by you can't spare a square or
[00:41:15] the Chinese restaurant or anything like that.
[00:41:17] Yeah.
[00:41:18] Yeah.
[00:41:18] OK, that's on the list.
[00:41:19] OK, Mike, I have two shows for you.
[00:41:22] OK, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[00:41:23] OK, OK, great.
[00:41:24] I feel you probably not seen either of these, but I'm just making an assumption.
[00:41:27] OK, one is old, one's new.
[00:41:30] Old.
[00:41:31] Have you seen the original L word, Mike?
[00:41:34] OK, so I have seen an episode or maybe a couple of episodes.
[00:41:39] I remember I spoke and we spoke about we had Izzy on a while back and spoke about it
[00:41:43] a lot with her.
[00:41:44] And I was like, this is very intriguing to me.
[00:41:48] It's it's just like everything you want out of like a messy, campy.
[00:41:55] Sometimes really good, but mostly not really good.
[00:41:58] Uh huh.
[00:41:59] Dramedy situation like it's just got it all.
[00:42:01] And it's like I think it's really lovely.
[00:42:04] I think it's really worth a watch.
[00:42:07] I really do.
[00:42:08] I really it's just it's extremely entertaining.
[00:42:10] It's really fun.
[00:42:11] Now, did you not suggest the reboot for like quality reasons or you just haven't seen it?
[00:42:15] Well, no, I've seen it all.
[00:42:16] I've seen it all.
[00:42:17] I think I mean, the original is just like, you know, like chef's kiss.
[00:42:21] The new the new is good.
[00:42:23] I think it's I'm not like it's must watch in the same way.
[00:42:26] Like I feel like the new suffers from like it's not different.
[00:42:29] It's not actually all the way good because it's still built off the original thing,
[00:42:34] which is kind of bad.
[00:42:35] But the original thing is bad in the good way.
[00:42:38] You know what I mean?
[00:42:40] But the thing is, OK, there's a there's a really good auto straddle,
[00:42:44] which is like a queer and lesbian like news website and has podcasts and stuff.
[00:42:51] They have a really good rewatch podcast of the L word.
[00:42:54] So I did a lot of watching the L word and listening to the auto straddle podcast of it.
[00:42:59] And the L word, the first season of the L word has like a really good finale,
[00:43:05] like one of like like it's like a deeply good episode of TV.
[00:43:09] The rest of the first season is so the show has so much bad like like like.
[00:43:14] But that first episode, I really remember the host of the podcast being like it's like it's
[00:43:20] the equivalent of like you at the end of the the end of the year of school,
[00:43:24] you turn in this paper and it's like so good that the teacher is like furious at you for
[00:43:28] being such a bad student all year.
[00:43:30] Like that's like the L word has these episodes where you're like, what the fuck?
[00:43:34] That was like, yeah.
[00:43:34] Oh, like you were capable.
[00:43:36] Yeah, exactly.
[00:43:37] Like and the fact that you were capable of this means it's like actually so much more
[00:43:41] disappointing how bad some of these episodes were.
[00:43:43] But like, it's just really it's it's lovely.
[00:43:47] And it's like the only show that lesbians had for so long, you know, and it just like
[00:43:52] it has a lot of problems, but it also like is canon to a whole culture, you know?
[00:43:58] So it's I think you'll like it, Mike.
[00:44:00] Honestly, I think no, like you really I think it strikes gold for me.
[00:44:03] We're like, yeah, it's awesome.
[00:44:05] Representation matters, especially at that time.
[00:44:07] But like at the same time, there's also a lot of great schlock.
[00:44:10] I can't believe they're doing this quality to it.
[00:44:12] Exactly.
[00:44:13] It's also like goofy as hell.
[00:44:15] Like it's very.
[00:44:16] Yeah, I think you'll like it.
[00:44:18] Yeah, I think you'll like it.
[00:44:19] All right.
[00:44:19] Another one.
[00:44:21] And I think this one's kind of like better, like is fellow travelers.
[00:44:27] Have you seen this?
[00:44:28] OK, I feel like I've heard the name, but like give me the elevator pitch on fellow travelers.
[00:44:34] This was another one I watched during top surgery.
[00:44:36] It's also available on Paramount Plus.
[00:44:38] So I'm sure that most of the listeners of this have access.
[00:44:42] It's basically it takes place that most of the show takes place in like McCarthy era Washington.
[00:44:48] So, again, we're going back to my West Wing kind of politics roots.
[00:44:52] But the main characters are two gay men.
[00:44:55] And this is like in an era where it's extremely illegal and you'll get fired and blacklisted for being gay.
[00:45:03] But one of them is like deep in the establishment, kind of like he knows how to navigate this world.
[00:45:09] And one of them is newer to it.
[00:45:10] And basically, oh, yes.
[00:45:13] Yes.
[00:45:14] The newer one is Jonathan Bailey.
[00:45:16] You can see him now in Wicked.
[00:45:18] Yeah.
[00:45:19] And the older one is the guy who was like in white collar.
[00:45:22] Matt Bomer.
[00:45:22] Yeah.
[00:45:23] Yes.
[00:45:23] Yes.
[00:45:24] I loved in the normal heart.
[00:45:26] I remember.
[00:45:26] I haven't actually seen that.
[00:45:27] But yeah.
[00:45:28] Oh, it's devastating.
[00:45:30] But it is so good.
[00:45:31] But oh, my God.
[00:45:32] Yes.
[00:45:32] OK.
[00:45:32] So now I remember this.
[00:45:33] I remember hearing the name and I was trying to associate with.
[00:45:36] But yeah, that's the big Jonathan Bailey piece that came out last year.
[00:45:39] It's really good.
[00:45:42] It's really good.
[00:45:43] It's really like it's devastating.
[00:45:45] It's like but it's got like a lot.
[00:45:47] Yeah.
[00:45:47] It's like the politics, the intrigue, the like sneaking around.
[00:45:51] So I feel like there's like Angels of America stuff in there.
[00:45:54] Like eventually it takes you through kind of gay history in a way, which I think I've read reviews that like I think that's like not in the book.
[00:46:01] And some of that feels a little tacked on, which I does feel a little tacked on.
[00:46:04] But it's also really good.
[00:46:07] Like and and also like deep emotional exploration of men.
[00:46:10] Like it's it's it's got good stuff.
[00:46:12] Highly, highly recommend.
[00:46:13] Oh, man.
[00:46:14] I I'm a huge Jonathan Bailey fan.
[00:46:17] Sasha and I are both like such Bridgerton season two fans.
[00:46:21] And like I saw Wicked yesterday and God, he was like he's so good.
[00:46:26] And I literally I watched like.
[00:46:30] I probably watched half of fellow travelers before I was like, oh, my God, that's the same guy as the guy in Bridgerton, because he's just he fully embodies a completely different character.
[00:46:43] Such that, like if you look at the pictures, you're like, of course, those are both Jonathan Bailey.
[00:46:47] But if you watch them move and talk, you're like those cannot possibly be the same person.
[00:46:52] Like it's incredible.
[00:46:53] It's incredible.
[00:46:54] Oh, my God.
[00:46:55] Well, I I love this.
[00:46:56] We both have homework to walk away from.
[00:46:58] So I guess I'm going to have to.
[00:46:59] Yeah, we'll have to quit smoking weed because we have to get back into our academics.
[00:47:02] I mean, I'll be watching Seinfeld.
[00:47:04] So I don't know.
[00:47:05] Exactly.
[00:47:05] Well, last thing I want to do is Evie.
[00:47:07] I mean, you talk about, again, really finding your groove in these shows that are all about communities of complicated people.
[00:47:15] And I think it's a perfect way to set up what you're happening to be doing.
[00:47:19] We're recording this Saturday night and then tomorrow, December 1st, you are doing something absolutely fantastic with the reality TV community.
[00:47:27] Why don't you plug what you got going on?
[00:47:29] That's right.
[00:47:30] Thank you so much, Mike.
[00:47:31] So tomorrow or whenever you're listening to us, this is happening on Sunday, December 1st from 3 to 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
[00:47:40] I am bringing together at least 12.
[00:47:43] No, actually, now it's 13.
[00:47:45] Survivor players and our podcast is that's right.
[00:47:49] A baker's dozen of survivor related people to do an Instagram live fundraiser for Point of Pride,
[00:47:56] which is an amazing organization that supports trans people in getting health care and other services that they need.
[00:48:02] And also even just like doing cute things like writing letters to trans people.
[00:48:05] Like it's like a really amazing organization.
[00:48:08] And yeah, I'm trans.
[00:48:11] I'm non-binary.
[00:48:11] I'm queer.
[00:48:12] You've probably if you're listening to this, you might have seen some of my journey of some of those things.
[00:48:16] And like it's an extremely scary time to be a person like me in America.
[00:48:20] This election was extremely devastating.
[00:48:22] The conversation after the election was also extremely devastating.
[00:48:26] And like it feels really scary and bad.
[00:48:31] And then the thing that feels really good is to feel like we're not alone.
[00:48:34] And it felt really good to be like, OK, I want to do a fundraiser to help trans people.
[00:48:38] And I'm going to reach out to survivor players.
[00:48:40] And oh, God, I hope that they're into it.
[00:48:41] And people were so into it.
[00:48:43] And like so many people were really excited to be part of it.
[00:48:46] Some people were like, oh, my God, I can't that day.
[00:48:48] But I'm devastated because I really want to be part of it.
[00:48:50] And like it's just really nice and good.
[00:48:52] And it feels really good to know that all these different people are excited to be part of it.
[00:48:56] I'm just going to like shout out some of the people that you might see if you come to the live.
[00:48:59] There's going to be obviously I'm going to be there.
[00:49:02] We've got Tiffany and Abraham and Queen Erica for my season are going to be there.
[00:49:06] We've got Jake.
[00:49:08] We've got Katora and Kelly from season 45.
[00:49:10] We've got Mattie and Zach and Omer.
[00:49:14] And I'm going to forget people and it's going to be embarrassing.
[00:49:16] Jacob Derwin is going to be there.
[00:49:18] What the fuck?
[00:49:20] That's so fun.
[00:49:22] Franny is going to be there.
[00:49:24] It's just going to be like an amazing day.
[00:49:26] And then we're going to end with me and Matt and Grace from The Pride Has Spoken and Josh Wiggler.
[00:49:32] Our half scripted TV legend extraordinaire.
[00:49:35] I just warmed you up for your first podcast with Josh.
[00:49:39] No, that's right.
[00:49:40] That's absolutely right.
[00:49:41] And it's going to be a really fantastic day.
[00:49:44] And already in the advertisement of this, we've already raised a thousand dollars for Point of Pride, which is so freaking cool.
[00:49:50] And if you're looking for the live, you follow me on Instagram at Evie Jag, E-V-V-I-E-J-A-G.
[00:49:57] And you'll find all the information there.
[00:49:59] And you can also find the information for how to donate to Point of Pride, whether or not I can make it.
[00:50:03] You can submit questions.
[00:50:04] We're going to be just like chatting and answering survivor questions and talking about stuff.
[00:50:08] And it's just going to be a really, really nice time.
[00:50:09] And I appreciate you, Mike, for plugging this, for having me here to plug this.
[00:50:14] And I just like, it feels good to.
[00:50:17] Oh, my God.
[00:50:18] I forgot an amazing thing.
[00:50:19] You know, you're thinking about queer, genderqueer survivor players.
[00:50:23] Who comes to the front of your mind today?
[00:50:25] Who comes to the front of your mind, Mike?
[00:50:26] It's got to be Teenie.
[00:50:28] It's got to be Teenie.
[00:50:29] And we got Teenie.
[00:50:30] Teenie is going to be there.
[00:50:31] It's going to be really sweet to talk to them.
[00:50:33] And also Zeke is going to try to join us.
[00:50:35] He's like a maybe because he's going to be at Disney World, which we love for him.
[00:50:39] Yeah.
[00:50:40] Yeah.
[00:50:40] So that'll be really sweet.
[00:50:42] And like, I just feel really honored that some of the people are down to be part of it.
[00:50:45] And yeah, it's going to be good.
[00:50:46] Well, I think the reason why they were able to be so gung ho about doing it is because of the person that was at the head of it.
[00:50:52] Evie.
[00:50:52] I mean, you know, ever since we were in our DMs talking about Lost, after finding out you were a survivor player,
[00:50:59] it's just been such a pleasure to get to know you, to become your friend and to get to chat with you even more about the stuff that you're into today.
[00:51:06] And to both have lists that we can respectively walk away with and update each other on our progress.
[00:51:11] This was such a delight.
[00:51:13] Thank you.
[00:51:14] Thanks so much.
[00:51:14] I want to give you I want to give you two more quick shout outs.
[00:51:17] Yes.
[00:51:17] Just want people to know how cool Mike Bloom is.
[00:51:20] OK, two things I remember in my life about Mike Bloom.
[00:51:23] One, the survivor cast for my season dropped and it was very anxious for me because I was really wrestling with my gender shit right before that happened.
[00:51:31] And I'd put on my Instagram that I use they slash them pronouns and the cast drops.
[00:51:35] And you know what?
[00:51:36] Mike Bloom DMs me to ask how he should relate to my pronouns and what to use.
[00:51:41] And it was really, really, really nice that someone in that field would actually just ask me.
[00:51:45] And that was really moving and important for me.
[00:51:47] And then number two, you took the picture of me and teeny with our respective top surgeries a few weeks ago or months ago or whatever.
[00:51:54] I know it feels like a few days ago.
[00:51:56] But yeah, I mean, that survivor drop in event.
[00:51:58] I mean, that was that was awesome.
[00:52:00] And again, that's how representation matters.
[00:52:01] You know, even just to see like the two of you getting to show that off and to see, you know, I'm sure even from your perspective, you had wondered if there was someone that could, you know, you could even get with over your experience, but only to have teeny come in who I think summarily.
[00:52:15] And I think that was also inspired by your experience.
[00:52:17] Yeah, which is cool.
[00:52:18] Talk about, you know, evolution in a manner of speaking must be such a trip for you.
[00:52:22] That's right.
[00:52:22] So it's beautiful.
[00:52:24] You're beautiful.
[00:52:25] Thanks for having me, Mike.
[00:52:26] Likewise, Evie.
[00:52:27] I'm so excited to check out the event tomorrow.
[00:52:30] There'll be plenty of friends there.
[00:52:31] And I hope you all are there as well.
[00:52:34] And check out more TV for real.
[00:52:35] Sasha will be back.
[00:52:37] As we say that the two thirds Evie will return with another reality TV contestant talking to be clear, I'm the two thirds.
[00:52:44] She's the three thirds.
[00:52:45] Yeah, I guess.
[00:52:45] Yeah, I guess she would then be what?
[00:52:48] Like the me.
[00:52:50] Yeah, four thirds, four thirds or something.
[00:52:53] That's again, why I'm not a human evolution.
[00:52:55] Exactly.
[00:52:56] Well, no matter what, we'll be back next week with another reality TV contestant talking their taste in scripted TV.
[00:53:01] Thank you all so much for listening.
[00:53:03] Until next time, everybody.
[00:53:04] It's been real.
[00:53:13] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer?
[00:53:16] Jemand, der deine Wünsche wahr werden lässt und mit dir das schönste Abenteuer deines Lebens erleben möchte?
[00:53:22] Die Commerce-Plattform Shopify revolutioniert Millionen von Unternehmen weltweit.
[00:53:28] Mit Shopify richtest du im Nu deinen Online-Shop ein.
[00:53:31] Ganz ohne Programmier- oder Designkenntnisse.
[00:53:34] Dank der effizienten Einrichtung und intuitiven Social-Media- und Online-Marketplace-Integration
[00:53:39] kannst du über Instagram, eBay und Co. werben und verkaufen.
[00:53:43] Neue Zielgruppen zu erreichen war noch nie so einfach.
[00:53:47] Shopify bietet auf einer einzigen sicheren Plattform alle Tools, um dein Online-Business aufzubauen.
[00:53:53] Kostenlos testen und dein Business der Welt präsentieren.
[00:53:57] Shopify.de-try besuchen.
[00:54:00] Einfach Shopify.de-try eingeben und loslegen.
[00:54:04] Made for Germany.
[00:54:06] Powered by Shopify.