The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 22: Myles Kuah

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[00:02:51] That's OmahaSteaks.com and an extra $35 off with promo code YUM at checkout. Terms apply. See site for details. Welcome back to The Pride Has Spoken. This is episode three of season five. My name is Grace Leder.

[00:03:21] Are you she, her pronouns? My name is Matt Scott. I use he, him pronouns. And I'm Evie Jigoda and I use they, them pronouns. And I'm so excited to be here on this episode of The Pride Has Spoken where we have a true legend who you may or may not know. And now you will know. A legend, the first ever queer winner of Australian Survivor.

[00:03:46] We have Miles from Brains Brawn 2 Australia. The sequel, yes. Yeah. And we had an amazing conversation with him. Yeah, Miles played Survivor last year. I mean, he played before that, but it aired last year. He won. Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched the season, I did fully just spoil it for you. I would encourage you to go watch it. You do not have to, don't go watch it. It's a lot of episodes also. Australian Survivor is a lot in general.

[00:04:15] But yeah, I'm very excited to have Miles on the episode today. I will also say, very fun if you want to do the cheat code version and go to YouTube and watch like the edits of Miles' game. It is so impressive to see him playing like such a standout game and a standout player and a standout human and someone I'm glad that we got to talk to. So you'll hear that conversation with Miles Kwa in just a little bit. Anything else you want to say about Miles, about the conversation as we set it up?

[00:04:45] Well, also, I just want to say a kind of great thing about watching his season is like, because Australian Survivor is so, if you don't know this, if you've never watched Australian Survivor, it's a lot more mis-edited or like edit biased. So you get to watch Miles a lot in the season. And as you'll hear, he's really fun and interesting and entertaining. So there's a lot of Miles content available should you need more, which you will. Miles was known for playing on the bottom of Tribal.

[00:05:14] He was sort of like ostracized a little bit. He plays at the bottom a lot. But he's like such a mind for strategy and numbers. And so manages to like figure him how to get out of those situations a lot. Power bottom. A power bottom. He gets nicknamed the Jungle Rat and he eventually becomes King of the Rats. And he has this very iconic line of biracial, bisexual, bi-tribal during a tribe swap. So he's an iconic Australian Survivor player. I think not just because he won.

[00:05:40] But I think like this season is, I feel like so far the theme is like confidence is key. Like we chatted with Carolyn last week, chatting with Miles. I think there's similar vibes and energy actually happening. You would not expect that probably that like Miles and Carolyn would have so much in common, but there's like a confidence thing that I think that they both have going on, which I think is really cool. So excited for people to hear our conversation with Miles today. Yeah, you'll hear him talk about his bisexuality and the degree to which that's a big part of his life.

[00:06:09] He talks about being an Asian man on TV and on Australian Survivor. And he talks about why Andy from Survivor 47 is his secret nemesis. So stay tuned to find out about all of that. Yes. And some quick thing I'll say too is we've used the word buy so much. Buy the Pride of Spoken merch. Check that out on his website.com slash store. I know Grace is rubbing off on me. We have shirts. We have buffs. We have tons of great crop tops.

[00:06:39] We have crop tops. We don't have any hats. Cope bags, stickers. Yes. All of those things are going, all the proceeds from those are going to three lovely charities. We have Rainbow Railroad. We have Sisters PGH and Project 10 Oaks. The links for all those charities are in the chat if you want to donate to them directly. But buying merch is for them. There's also about 100 buffs available to buy there as well. So please, please do it. There's a new shirt design, new logo design this year as well. Yeah.

[00:07:06] And whether you're bi, gay, whatever your sexuality is, we want to hear from you. We have a question that we want you to answer. What has being LGBTQ plus in the survivor community meant to you? You could submit your response to that in the next few days. Hopefully be part of one of the episodes this season at bit.ly slash tphs2026. The link is in the show notes. Check that out. But now let's get into our conversation with Miles Kwa.

[00:07:39] All right. And we are back and we are so thrilled to be joined by the one and only biracial, bi-tribal, bisexual. Miles. Miles, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm happy to be here. That's a lovely intro. I've got that on a mug now. I've been selling that on a mug. Oh my gosh. I saw that. I attempted to buy one, Miles. I have to sell you. To buy one? Oh no. Miles, you sort of have like a million nicknames.

[00:08:09] So, you know, Jungle Rat, King of the Jungle. You know, there's a million. That is one. Rat King. Yeah, Jungle Rat and Rat King were the main two, I think. King of the Jungle. We got a different one over in Australia who's got that name. Oh yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. I mean, the nicknames are part of the fun, right? Like, I've always... Australian Spiverr is big on the nicknames. Like, as soon as you get like any sort of name given to you, the producers just start like handing it home.

[00:08:38] I think like the casual audience really responds well to the nicknames. Everything. Alliance are named. Yeah. Yeah. There's really good at branding. It really frustrates me in New Era US Survivor how all of the Alliance names just end up being like the Tribe Name 3 or the Tribe Name 4 because the tribes are so small that you don't need to specify within a tribe what an Alliance is versus in Australian Survivor

[00:09:05] like it definitely has more of a history of like big iconic alliances within that. But going into it, did you envision having like a different nickname? Because obviously there's the Jungle Rap, but I mean... Yeah. Did you know you'd be called the Jungle Rap? No. Like I didn't have an aim to get a nickname, but it's one of those things where as soon... And people... I actually feel really bad for Max who nicknamed me this because he mentioned it to me. I was like...

[00:09:35] Because I backstabbed him, right? This is something people forget about with the rat name. People were like, oh, it's so mean he called you a rat. It's like I was a rat. I like totally screwed him over. And there's some like historical context there as to why people kind of got upset about that. But that doesn't really apply in this specific situation because I was being a rat and then he asked me like if it would be all right if he called me that. And I just saw... I saw like... I saw lights. I saw branding. I saw stars. I was like, yes.

[00:10:04] Especially because like I was worried at that point about being voted out really early because I was just on the block constantly. And so I was like, if I do get voted out, this is my route to get invited back, right? So call me... And I was like, use the nickname. Call me the nickname. Like I was very happy with it. And one thing that you talked about on the show is that you do pole dancing, which is so cool. And I really want to get into. And my question is, has the Rat King nickname, has that influenced...

[00:10:32] Are we doing some pole routines? Is that a potential future drag name? Like it's got... The nicknames are so available. It hasn't, but the potential is definitely there. Yeah. The pole dancing is a lot of fun, obviously. It's like a really awesome hobby and you should definitely try it. But yeah, it hasn't been any crossover because I just do it as like a fun, casual hobby. I'm not doing any performances or anything. That's a big step. I don't like... Getting on national TV is one thing, but then going out and doing an actual pole dancing

[00:11:02] performance for people, I think is a whole nother level of like exposure. Harder than Survivor? More revealing than Survivor? Well, genuinely, here's something interesting. The most anxious I've ever felt in my entire life is the first time I had like a little end of the season showcase for pole dancing. And when I was going out on Survivor, I was thinking about that in my mind as like, if I can do that, like I can do anything.

[00:11:29] And like, obviously, as you would know, it's like a big thing going on Survivor. It's very scary. It's very like anxiety inducing. But it was nothing compared to my first time like getting up on a pole in front of an audience. And so that actually really helped me with like kind of trying to tone out and forget about people like the people are watching me, basically. I love that so much. I feel like you imagine like the classic like Survivor motivation is, oh, you remember when

[00:11:57] you were like at the last second of the big game, you know, like some like some stereotypically masculine thing as like the cornerstone. But no, it was I did that pole routine in front of the audience. And that's what I'm going to drop on. I love that so much. Yeah, it's terrifying. This is awesome, though. But it's cool to like dive in with you to have you on miles. Like, obviously, the show gives like one edit in portrayal.

[00:12:26] John, as the winner, you are very much the main story of the season. But like, I'm so curious, sort of like how you sum yourself up or how you would introduce yourself like who for people who don't watch Australian Survivor who aren't familiar, like who are you? How would you how would you sum it up for folks? Yeah, I mean, I, I got really lucky that my edit was very generous to me both in the amount of content and the quality of content.

[00:12:57] Like there's something that happens very consistently throughout the season, which is like a lot of a lot of the audience will like, why is everyone targeting miles? Why is everyone like getting annoyed at miles? Because it would show everyone kind of ganging up on me and everyone would be very defensive about like, oh, man, poor miles. He's just getting like ganged up on. It's like I was doing things that were pissing people off. And a lot of the time weren't really shown because the edit like because I'm the hero and because I'm the one that like I thought I was the villain when I was actually playing through. Oh, wow. I make it to the end.

[00:13:26] I win. And then suddenly I get this like have to get this hero in it where they cut all of the things I was terrified to like come on. I had so many things in my mind that I'm like, oh, they show that when they show that I'm going to look so bad. It's going to be so embarrassing. It just basically all got cut. But as far as as far as thing how to sum myself up, I think pole dancing finance guy is probably a good way to go about that. I think that was like your intro, your intro, your intro is you're sitting at the computer doing financial.

[00:13:55] You're doing like finance stuff. Yeah. And then you then it's like clips of you pole dancing and then you're playing like Dungeons and Dragons. You're playing with your friend. You get like a mega intro. I mean, this is like Australian Survivor is like mega and huge already. But you get yeah, you get this like very multifaceted intro. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of how I pitched myself in production was basically like, oh, I'm like finance guy, but plot twist. Like I'm this like nerdy finance guy, right? But plot twist.

[00:14:23] I'm also like this fabulous queer pole dancing, like outgoing eccentric person as well. And I've always like really enjoyed kind of breaking stereotypes and being a bit out of the box in that regard where like I don't really fit into any kind of category that you could kind of stereotype people into. Um, but yeah, that's kind of how I'd pitch myself. Can I add to, I think what's, and I was, when I was listening to some of the deep dive with

[00:14:50] Shannon, you're also talking about the way in which you were sort of looking to be something that they might. And I think you sort of, when you realized that they were doing brains versus brawn too, you sort of have this of like, oh, that's kind of perfect for you think that, but it's almost like what you like about that you come off a certain way, which is like, you might fit into their, their, their idea of what a brain might look like, but then you can sort of subvert that expectation. Is that, is that, is that true? Is that how you feel? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:18] And like, it's one of those things where my kind of archetype on Survivor would traditionally be someone who is like not super confident and not super like flamboyant, right? It's the, like on paper, you look at me and you're like, oh, it's the nerd, but it's very much breaking the nerd archetype because I'm like very cocky and overconfident. I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I'm very outgoing. I'm really athletic. People, people are always surprised. They're like, I pole dance. I play soccer. I like used to box. I like do a whole, I'm a very athletic guy.

[00:15:48] And so I come in and I get like the nerd thing is the first thing that's kind of put on me because I do talk a bit like a nerd and I kind of look a bit like a nerd and I've had eye surgery. So I no longer wear glasses. Like I used to wear glasses. So I'm very much like nerd vibes, but like in, I went to a private boys school where it rugby was all the, all the rage. And I'm actually a really big rugby fan. I played a lot of rugby growing up. And like when we're picking teams in PE, right?

[00:16:15] Like initially I would always get picked last because it's this like little Asian guy getting picked for touch football. And I'd like, we'd start playing and like, I wasn't the best there, but everyone would always be surprised of like, oh, he can actually pass a ball and he can actually step and he knows how to play rugby because it's like, you know, I'm in the little, I'm in the tiny little Venn diagram intersection between like queers, Asians and rugby fans, apparently. I love it.

[00:16:43] I know this is actually that, that brings me to something I'm curious about as someone who's not as familiar as, as a lot of people, um, of like Survivor Australia and like just all of the lore and different characters. But like you mentioned being Asian, being queer, like going into the experience, were there certain players that you saw who you were like, oh, I like, they remind me of me

[00:17:08] or I think I might like in terms of representation sort of mirror them a bit or compare with them to some extent. On the representation side, I do feel like the way that queer people are often presented in Survivor and I guess in media and more generally is quite like, it is quite stereotypical a lot of the time in a way that like don't really align with, cause I'm like, I'm bi, I lean towards women most of the time.

[00:17:35] I kind of only like guys and I'm definitely a bit queer presenting, but I like, you know, I'm probably not your kind of stereotypical like queer person vibes wise. Um, and so on the queer side, especially cause I do feel like on shows like Survivor, it's definitely something that's kind of presented a lot more. Like I think Paulie from my season would be a, uh, like classic example of like a queer person on Survivor as far as like making it a big part of their vibe.

[00:18:01] Um, on the Asian side, a little bit more, definitely there's been a few players like Jared in 2017 and Eileen and, uh, Titans versus Rebels, but it's really hard because there's not been a lot of very good Asian representation on Australian Survivor. Um, and then oftentimes the Asians that are, and this is something I was very aware of, very conscious of going in the fact that oftentimes like people who either get targeted early, a lot of them do get labeled sneaky, which is like a problem.

[00:18:29] And that's what people were really upset about with the nickname thing for me is that it's the classic thing. Asians get labeled sneaky. Now I was really sneaky, but, uh, a lot of, a lot of other people, it's kind of unjustified. Um, and a lot of them get really dead purple edits, right? Like even people like Eileen and Jared, who were really big players on their season, like got basically done in on the edit. And there's like, obviously they're not the only ones, um, way in Brains versus Brawns get comes fourth. No, it comes fifth.

[00:18:58] It before, I can't remember. It comes fifth, but it gets purpled in the entire second half of the season. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, it's quite, it's quite difficult. There's not really many players, other than maybe Jericho from 2017, but not that many players on the like Asian side that you can kind of look at as represent as really strong representation. Um, the only one that there was definitely a bit of was George who obviously we all know

[00:19:25] George, uh, who kind of is not Asian, but has like the ethnic vibes and is also like on Brains versus Brains wasn't out as queer. And then it's like given as a throwaway line in heroes, villains. But that's actually kind of like how I wanted to be presented as like strategists first, like fun character first and kind of queer representative second. And I made a really big effort throughout the season because they, they, they were trying to push it a bit more and especially some of the interactions with Paulie where they

[00:19:53] were always trying to like push it into like, Oh, is it a flirty thing? Is it a romance thing? And being like, no, this is pure strip strategy and I'm going to cut him later. And it's very cutthroat and whatnot. Um, I was always really hesitant to that. And I was thinking about George a lot of the time as far as kind of how I'd want that kind of queerness and eccentricity to be portrayed as far as like having it be strategy and character first and then those things second. Right.

[00:20:21] When you, when you think about George, you think about like the king of strategy on Australian survivor and he's gay and you know, and yeah. And it just happens that he's a fun, fabulous gay man as well. Like that's the second kind of thing about him. And it fits perfectly with like some of the other kind of gay strategists throughout global survivor history. Like Todd. Richard Hatch. Even in a way. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think what's interesting though, it's no, just that, that, um, like you talked

[00:20:50] about having this, this journey of feeling like you were, you might be portrayed as a, a villain. And I actually want to go back to that in a bit because I think it's, I think you're, you're, um, you're, what we saw from you on the show is I think it's like really interesting. And then this idea that like you win until you sort of, you feel like then you sort of get more of a, here's that. But in terms of like thinking about your queerness, I think also probably like what might be like sort of forgotten about is like, you know, especially early on, like you don't know how

[00:21:20] long you're going to go. You talk about this in the finale of like, you know, uh, you're talking about love and your conversation with Kalen where you're like, how far did you think you'd get? He was like, well, I thought I'd, I'd win. And you were like, I really was really kind of hoping maybe I'd make the merge. Um, like this really cute moment. I think of like, um, cause I think I'm more in the camp of you of maybe having a little bit more like if I ever want a reality show, I'm not expecting to do as well. Uh, you know, as maybe I would want to do. Um, but, uh, but like in these moments early on where like potentially you're being, you

[00:21:50] know, even at the moment where like you and Polly have a connect and for folks who don't know, like Miles, you basically save Polly with a, you know, this Miles, but Miles saves Polly, uh, with an incredible idol play. Um, Polly would have gone home. Successful knowledge is power and survive a history. Yeah. Steals an idol in the same tribal and then plays it for, and eliminates the ally of the person who stole the idol from it's like so incredible. Um, but, um, yeah, like, like even in that moment, like you haven't won the game yet.

[00:22:17] So like, are you, I'm assuming like these things where you feel like they're kind of pushing are coming in maybe even earlier in the show where, you know, what you don't want is for it to be, you know, 75, 80%, you know, of your, of your story. Is that, is that relatable or am I off? No, a hundred percent. Right. Like you've only got a certain amount of time to like content that they are willing to give you an, especially in Australian survival where like a Australian survivor is brutal with the purple edits, right? Right.

[00:22:43] Um, especially in Australian survivor, you've only going to get X amount of airtime of content. And I don't want to waste content that they might give me on me talking about what is an important part of my life, but I don't think is kind of defining who I am. Right. Like I think I'm a lot of things before I am bisexual man. Um, I do wish I actually talked about kind of the Asian representation a little bit more

[00:23:09] just because, and, and especially as it got later in the game, because that is what, because I think that there's actually quite good queer representation on Australian survivor, especially in the last couple of years, there's been some really like George and Kirby alone. There's been some really big queer characters and even going, I even think on your season, there's a lot of representation. We've got Noonan and Paulie on my season. There's some other people who are like more like quietly, you know, by, you know, acquired bisexuals.

[00:23:35] Um, but the, yeah, definitely the Asian thing is one that I do wish I talked about a bit more in hindsight. It's like, uh, coming, coming out of it at the time, it was very much like, I don't really want to talk about representation. I kind of want to be focused on like character and strategy and all narration and all that. But afterwards it was probably one of my bigger regrets of the season. And then even not, not just that also just like, I got, I've gotten a lot of messages

[00:24:02] because after the season being like, I'm so happy for the representation, whatnot. And it's like the queer thing is the Asian thing. It's even just like nerdy, anxious people. Right. And like, I'm not someone who's like super anxious and super unconfident, but I am someone who has grown up as a nerd as still a bit, it's like somewhat of an outsider and that kind of regard. Um, and it's definitely something that while I'm out there, I wasn't really thinking about, but when I got back, it was like, oh yeah, it's like really cool to see people

[00:24:32] like you on your screen. And I'm kind of, especially in something like a show like survivor, right? Like a U S survivors had a, has had a few like, you know, common style, big nerd narrators. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Australian survivor doesn't really lend itself to that in the same way for a few reasons. They don't cast as many of them and the ones that they have cast have historically not done very well. Um, so. And they cast, at least, especially now, I feel like there's a way higher percentage

[00:25:00] of the, the mateship professional athlete, like on Australian survivor than U S, which is maybe a dichotomy. Oh yeah. Totally. Well, unless so the last couple of seasons, but like definitely if you go back historically, right, you look at like your champions versus contenders one and two, you look at 2016, you look at even brains versus bronze, like the brains tribe was very much not nerdy on that season. Like that is definitely an issue historically.

[00:25:27] There's meant that my type of archetype has always struggled a little bit. And so it's something that I do wish I talked about a little bit more in hindsight. It was just, it's interesting in your deep, when you talk about when you were looking for other deep dives and you were kind of like, I kind of had to like find somebody who I thought was sort of like, you know. Baden is the main one. Baden, that's right. Baden is the main one where I'm like, oh, it's another young, young, nerdy physics mathsy guy. Right.

[00:25:57] And that was actually really useful because his entire like deep dive and entire stories about him, like wishing he had made the move at this point, this point wishing he had taken more agency. And especially because you combine Asian thing, queer thing, nerdy thing, all kinds of things that can kind of lead to you being kind of overlooked or being kind of swept up in the game. And then also I did some data before the season. If you look at like the performance of young players on Australian Survivor, the US Survivor

[00:26:25] has a much stronger track record of young players, like taking dominant positions in the game. Like even recently you look at like Sam, you look at Rizzo, you've got these young guys who can really put their stamp on the game. In Australian Survivor, it's a lot. I don't know why this is necessarily, but the young people under 24, under 25 year olds have a much harder, rougher track record where like there's very few young players who've managed to like A, make it very far and then B, more importantly, like really put their stamp on the game.

[00:26:55] And so that was something I was really conscious of, of like, hey, I fit into all these categories plus the age thing of like, if I don't do things, I'm just going to kind of get swept up in it all. It's all going to kind of wash over me and I'm going to like kind of miss my shot here. Like I need to take the agency myself. And very much that poorly move was about like, hey, I need to make my stamp on the game because

[00:27:21] I'm not going to be able to just play like a cool under the radar chill game and then get the attention I'm going to be someone's sidekick or I'm going to be like seen as a floater or something like that. Can I just also say all of this like analysis is so, but just in case people that again, I also learned the deep dive that you didn't really start watching Survivor until like 2022. Is this right? Am I getting the date right? Yeah. You just have this much like knowledge about it. I'm very obsessive about things, right? Like the way I get it. Very relatable. Yeah. Like I'm a big stats guy.

[00:27:51] I can do anything that I get interested in. I can tell you the stats. And like a lot of, there's a lot of seasons of US Survivor that I haven't seen, but I like, I've only seen about like eight or nine seasons of US Survivor, but I'll be able to tell you like kind of most of the boot order and what the important votes are and what like the final two was, right? I think it just probably explains why you did well in thinking you're in your season, but yeah. Summer routines live or die by how easy they are. And honestly, if something takes too much effort, I'm out. That's why Groons is my go-to.

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[00:29:18] LG appliances. So much more. Make life easier with LG. See the latest models and savings now at LG.com. Like what was it? So like we often talk about the pride is spoken. How Survivor is like very queer coded in many ways. And I'm sure you've talked about this before. But like what was it that drew you to Survivor? And made it this obsession for you? Yeah.

[00:29:47] I'm just a really big strategy game guy. Like honestly, I've never been a big reality TV person. I've never watched a lot of reality TV. And to be honest, I'd never even like thought about watching Survivor. And then like I love going down little YouTube rabbit holes on strategy games. Like I've done it with like poker, with Pokemon, with like Settlers of Catan. Like all that kind of stuff. And like I watched a video on Survivor Strategy one time. And I was like, oh, that seems interesting. Clicked on it. Watched and was like, oh, wow. This is a lot deeper than I first like would have thought from the outside.

[00:30:15] I just thought it was some like reality TV show, right? Like I didn't take it seriously. And then I kept watching and I got kind of obsessed. And even now I'm obsessed with Survivor Strategy. I'm very much like a big numbers guy. I love like funky votes. I love like trying to plot out like what's the path forward? Like take out this person, try and bring this person in, yada, yada, yada. Yeah, it's the strategic side. Like I'm very much not a big drama person. And I mean, that really helped me the way I played is like I never really got involved in like the drama of it all.

[00:30:45] It was all just like all strategy all the time, basically. But yeah, I kind of get like this with strategy games just in general, right? Like I love strategy games. That is the best story of a YouTube algorithm I think I've ever heard. That's the most positive outcome. I feel like this is something I've thought. I think we often talk about the way Survivor sort of appeals to queer fans. We've talked sort of endlessly about that.

[00:31:14] I do think like strategy and games in and of itself, I don't think I've really thought and maybe like thought hard enough. I wonder whether it is sort of like, and I don't know whether that's exactly why you might have been drawn to and why you love strategy games. I do feel like there's almost like this sort of like ideal version of like a level playing field of like if like if society is not like a level playing field for people or people who are underrepresented or do not have as much power as other people, there is a thing

[00:31:41] of like if I can like figure out the rules of this game and sort of like figure it out. I wonder if there's like a thing to that. Yeah, but what is it that about, you know, what is specifically about strategy? Is it just like the crunching? Because I guess Survivor is not just about crunching. I mean, it's crunching the numbers, but it's also you have to develop a social relationship to figure out whether that can be a number for you. You'll notice that the part that I'm good at is the crunching the numbers and the part that I am notoriously not good at is the social side of it.

[00:32:09] In fact, one would argue I have statistically the worst social game of any player in Survivor history as the person with the most votes against them from any season of Survivor. Like I mean, I'm not bad. I'm good at the social part of not like really upset. Like I was good at keeping my head down. I never really blew up at people. I never gave people a reason to vote me out, but I was not good at building the social

[00:32:34] bonds, like the deep social bonds, especially quickly and the way that you do like I and it's funny because over time I've kind of built these connections afterwards where I'm very close with a lot of people for my season. I only had like three, four really close allies on my season, but it was really the numbersy strategy stuff that pulled me through. But as far as your broader question on what draws me to strategy games, I don't know. I've been playing strategy games since I was like little. My parents were really big strategy game people.

[00:33:03] My dad was teaching me chess at like five years old. It's something that I mean, I've always been very analytical. Like I love solving problems. I've always been like really good at maths. My entire job is mathsy problem solving essentially. So I don't know if there's for me a link to the queerness. Maybe there is. I'm not sure. I've never delved into it super deep. But it's just like I love puzzles. I love problem solving. I love being able to kind of put the pieces together and come up with like the correct outcome basically.

[00:33:32] And so that's what's always appealed with me. Like with strategy, it's actually less about winning and more about understanding the game for me. Like I'm really... The winning is just the proof that I understand how the game works and understand the strategy behind it. And just to say not to digress this, but I feel like what's interesting, Grace, is like I feel like... I don't feel like Survivor is a level playing field, right? I mean, Miles just... I was about to say actually. Yeah, you agree.

[00:33:59] You know, he went in thinking like, oh, people are going to see me as too young, as Asian, as bisexual, as like not athletic enough just from how I look, you know? And it's like... I feel like what's cool about Survivor is it's actually the same like unequal or like it has a lot of the unequal things that we come to in life. But it is a game. And in the very first season of the show, the gay man won. And like an unexpected person won the game. And like I think it's... I feel like it's a cool thing where it's like this... It's like Cassandra, right?

[00:34:28] Sandra, exactly. It's like life, but then there's like all these examples from the very beginning where the surprising person who, you know, doesn't fit the bill, not Captain America, not the river raft guider wins all the time. Can I say that it is not... You're right that it's not equal. I don't know what it is. But it's also like you essentially do have the same amount of power when you start the game as somebody who might be like, you know, a straight white man.

[00:34:58] You know, you do... I mean, maybe. But I think Jonathan is always going to start the game in a better position than me. You know what I mean? Not Jonathan. I mean, it's just objectively true. Like he's never going to get voted out as the first vote. And I feel like I... Maybe if you feel this way, Miles have like a reasonable shot of being the first boot on any season. I was supposed to be the first boot on my season. It's crazy. It was literally like... I was going to be the second boot until 10 minutes before Tribal.

[00:35:25] Where ironically, I don't know how much you know about our season, but I was saved because Indy, who is like a lovely ethnic lesbian middle-aged woman, had like... We had built this connection in that both of us were the two people on the outs and she basically blew up her game to try and save her. Oh, queen. Lesbian queen. We love... Yeah. Where would we be now without Indy? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Like she... We had built up...

[00:35:55] We had literally built a connection on the fact that both of us were feeling really on the outs and we were like our two closest allies and no one else was really kind of talking strat to us. And I was going to be the target and she like just completely imploded her game trying to save me. That's so sweet. Was it something that you guys explicitly talked about also about, you know, that you were being bisexual and her being lesbian? Was that something that was explicit in that connection or was it kind of just... Yeah. We knew each other were queer and also she's like mixed race as well.

[00:36:24] And like it was a very... It was a pretty white tribe. And so, yeah, it was something that we were definitely bonding over a little bit. Yeah. But I guess the point in the way it was like... It was like... Yeah, but it did take her blowing up her... Exactly. Like she did have to leave, you know, for you to go on and flourish. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And have you shared some of the money or... No, just kidding. I mean, you're not... Can't tell us that. The question I was going to ask, Bob, is you played a lot. You played basically almost...

[00:36:52] I think in the end you talk about 50% from the bottom. But then you end up on top. So it sounds like your verse. Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. But I'll tell you what, I didn't play well from the top. So I'm not a very good verse. You won. You won. You won. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. All of my worst gameplay came from the top though. That's so funny. Okay. The thing you were talking about that you felt like you were sort of getting a bill and

[00:37:21] then you feel like in retrospect you got it. Is that still how you felt when you won and knowing the show is about to air? Because there are moments that I feel like it does garner a lot of sympathy, I think, for you in the way that some of your... Yeah. So if it's not clear that Miles loves talking about strategy in the show, that was also very, very clear as well. There are full segments of you, especially when you swap and then especially Zara being like, I need you to stop talking.

[00:37:50] Like you're doing yourself no favor, which I'm like sitting there being like, oh, but actually, I think that there is a bit like there obviously is a better bet. They don't want you to do this because it hurts their game. But there are these times where like other people are giving confessionals being like, Miles is very annoying. And I learned in your deep dive that you actually asked all of your friends to give you all of the worst things about you, which is like such a brave thing to do. Traumatic. Yeah. So traumatic.

[00:38:17] So that notion of feeling like you were going to get a hero, is that like between the show airing or as it was starting, you were like surprised by seeing the edit you were getting? I knew at the point that I'd won that I was probably going to get a hero edit because Australian Survivor is not subtle in its editing at all. Right. However, even the extent to it surprised me a little bit. Like there were definitely some interactions where I felt like I was the villain in the interaction that were flipped over to make me like more likable and to be the guy who is

[00:38:47] the hero. And yeah, it was very weird. Like a lot of the worst, my worst kind of moments. And to be fair, I was never like, the one thing I had is that I was never mean to anyone. I would kind of piss them off by being annoying or by sometimes saying that what I do have in me is I can be really insensitive sometimes. Right. So I would say insensitive things without thinking about it and would upset people. But I was really deliberately never mean. And it's very easy in Survivor to be mean.

[00:39:17] Right. Like the production team are kind of like pushing it. They want the drama. Everyone's like tired and hungry and grouchy. And I made a really big effort to never be mean, to always take everything with a smile and whatever and never like bite back when people were like coming at me. And so they didn't have any like mean content. But definitely what surprised me is I was playing off the villain character. Right. Like I was trying to play the heel. I was trying to play the kind of foil.

[00:39:43] And me and AJ, I thought that we would be the kind of the final boss villains that someone else would beat to win, basically would take out to win. And so they and what they do is they take all of those villain confessionals and then they kind of reframe them to be like cheeky or like, you know, heroic or whatever. Yeah, it was very strange. But I kind of knew I knew that I would get the hero edit. I wasn't expecting the extent to which the hero edit that I got where I got really a lot

[00:40:11] of focus for like emotional content. Like even they show me like crying about voting out my closest ally at that final five. And they, you know, they just show all of these kind of really nice moments and they always frame them really well. And anyone who is against me is the villain. And considering I'm on the bottom the whole time, everyone's against me at some point. So basically everyone like our season's bizarre where you have like three people that get nice edits and then everyone is framed as like a villain.

[00:40:40] Everyone else, basically, because they're all just like picking on me. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. It's very strange. And I wasn't expecting the extent of it. Like they really, and it's actually something I criticize our editing for a little bit is I think I'm a bit, our season is a lot of people were picking me as the winner from very early on. And especially once we hit merge and then once Karen goes, it's like, who else is there even to win? Because they're just shoving me down the audience throat basically the entire time.

[00:41:10] I watched, I had seen it knowing that you had won. So I didn't, I didn't watch it in real time. I'm often like catching up and, and like, it's like, it's so obvious. Like you, I think you get the biggest intro package of, of any, not that other people don't get intro packages, but I'm just like, oh yeah, it feels like they've, yeah, they're not subtle Australian Survivor. Could we, maybe actually like one thing I feel like we normally do with guests, which we haven't really done is like sort of go, you know, even before Survivor, which we talked a little

[00:41:36] bit about before Survivor, but in terms of like, I think also like, I just want to be like any other representation you want to talk about in terms of the show. But like, um, in terms of coming out, you had, you, what was your coming out story? Um, do you want to find out? Yeah. Yeah. I remember back in year nine, we watched, uh, Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. And I watched the scene and I went, oh, I like Romeo. Is that the Leonardo DiCaprio one or that's, yeah. Oh, yeah. Young Leonardo DiCaprio.

[00:42:06] Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then I kind of just came to the realization over the next year and then I just kind of came out to a bunch of people. It's very weird because I was like the only person out of the, I went to a like private boys, all boys private school, quite fancy, quite traditional. And I was the only person who came, who was out of the closet at school, but I know, I know a bunch of people have come out since obviously. Um, but I didn't really suffer too many like negative social consequences of that.

[00:42:35] I think part of it is cause I'm already like such a big quirky personality and I'm also a very confident person. Like I, I think that people, cause there's, there were a lot of people who are homophobic at my school, but I never, and I know people were talking behind my back, but I never heard anything. No one ever said anything to my face. But I think, you know, people like that, they kind of like taste, they smell weakness. Right. That's why I imagine if some of the other guys in my year that were out, that were, uh, queer had come out of the closet. I think a lot of them would probably have gotten a bit of shit, shit for it because it would

[00:43:05] have been like in a much less confident manner than me. Right. But with me, it's like, I'm very confident. And then also I think because I'm already a pretty eccentric person, it kind of just gets lumped in with that as opposed to being its own thing. Like what, like what I was saying earlier about the fact that I think, queer is probably like point number three or four or five in kind of the description of miles, you know what I mean? And so like, and I think it's below like, it's already like eccentric or a bit quirky or whatever, however you want to describe it. Survivor winner.

[00:43:35] Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, well, I think, I think when you're like that, it kind of gets lumped in there. Um, and yeah, so I, I don't know. I have, I feel like I haven't really got, cause I'm also pretty straight passing most of the time. Like, obviously like I do like to, you know, dress flamboyantly sometimes, you know, I do the pole dancing, but like, I'm not someone who's really obviously queer, right. That you'd meet, uh, that you'd meet and be like, oh yeah, that's a gay man, you know?

[00:44:00] Um, and so I don't think it's something that's had too many significant, like negative impacts on my life in the way that I think a lot of other people have kind of experienced it. We just, something I talked about and like, but people in my final speech, I mentioned the fact that like, I've kind of had a really privileged life and people are like, um, Asian queer nerd, what? I was like, yeah, it's just, it's never really kind of affected me negatively. And also to be fair, it helps that Sydney is like a pretty good city. Yeah. Right.

[00:44:30] Like Sydney is, and I lived like in the inner city of Sydney, right? Like I, uh, I live a couple blocks away from Oxford street, which is like our gay street essentially. So it's really, I've been really lucky in that regard being the bubble. Yeah. I feel like I've had that for, you know, where like, uh, especially when I, first when I came out as good, I feel like I had very similar words. Like nobody would say anything to my, to my, and I do feel like there is a level. And I feel, I feel, but cause it's like, um, you do have to have like, cause there's certain level of confidence.

[00:44:59] I think that, but I think like folks who are, you know, engaging in homophobia or trans or whatever are, you, there is some like some of wanting to have power in a conversation. And if you're not sort of willing to give them any, then I think that they find it a little futile. Right. And bullies, bullies find people who pick on people who are weak. Like the bullies don't bully someone who's like a strong, confident person. They pick on someone who's like, who they see as an easy target. Who they perceive to be weak. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:45:27] It's interesting though, even just like you, you mentioned like dressing flamboyantly, pole dancing, like, cause as someone who went to an all boys high school and also kind of understands that environment and how like, oh, like nobody, nobody's out apparently. And then like, yeah, we see how that evolves. Yeah. Three years later and it's like, okay. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I find it so interesting, like just thinking about masculinity, which even was like a topic on our last episode.

[00:45:56] Um, like how did you come to embrace those parts of yourself that are more flamboyant that like, well, whether it's the way you dress, whether it's pole dancing, like how did you come to embrace those things in a world where I can imagine like that not being the most, um, especially in that all boys environment, like being the most common thing. Yeah. So I think a big one was musical theater and I was really lucky when I have a boys school

[00:46:24] that I was at actually had a real big focus on the musical theater program, uh, on the theater program in general. And actually a lot of people who were like, who were kind of your more traditional, like cool kids or math, like, you know, more, a lot more normal, but like the theater program was not just for the theater nerds at my school. It was actually something that was pretty widespread and a lot of people did. Um, and so that was definitely a good outlet. And then I remember like my first year out of high school in uni, I started working as

[00:46:50] a bartender at a gay bar and that really kind of opened all the possibilities up. You know, I started dressing more flamboyantly. I started interacting with a lot more queer people. I started feeling like it improved my social skills as well because I've, I am a very naturally extroverted person, but I've never, I've always struggled a bit with actually making, being a good conversationalist. I'm not like a natural small talker. I'm not, I can talk very easily. I've always been someone easily, but I'm not necessarily someone who is good at conversation.

[00:47:18] That's been something that was built through the bartending, which kind of forces you to do like hours and hours of small talk every day, basically. Um, and so I got a lot of kind of, I got the strongest social skills there was interacting with a lot of different people. Um, I was able to dress a lot more flamboyantly there as well. And so there was, that was kind of a period where I was experimenting with my style a lot more and it was, my style was pretty, pretty wild for a little bit. It's, I feel like it's kind of now become a bit more kind of subtle and deliberate and,

[00:47:47] and like, as opposed to just what it was initially, which was like an explosion of skin, fabric and color. Oh, oh my gosh. We never named the episodes before, but that would have been a good one. Explosion of skin, fabric and color. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that, so I think like that, I think that was a really big part of kind of figuring it all out was working at the gay bar and interacting with all these like amazing queer

[00:48:12] people and like getting to kind of be, figure out, not even be myself, figure out who I was basically and who I wanted to be. That makes so much sense. I feel like that, and I feel like that exposure to queer people, like whether or not you're queer is often like a good, a good, just like that queer community is a place where people have had to figure out who they are and like work through that and know and figure out that it's not, you know, what people might expect them to be.

[00:48:40] And I feel like that's, that's just cool exposure for anyone. Yeah. And you know, you're going to be accepted and supported with whatever, with however it is, right? Like, I think kind of some of the fashion decisions that I was making back then are kind of dreadful and hideous looking back at it, but you know, everyone's going to support you regardless. Yes. Yes. You were going to be. We actually have some photos of you back then. I wish. Uh, are you still into musical theater? Are you still a big musical theater?

[00:49:05] Um, I mean, I'm not like a diehard musical theater person, but like, I enjoy music. Like I was in like a couple of school musicals. I wasn't like the drama kid. Right. Um, but it's just something that I've enjoyed and definitely was like a bit of an outlet during high school. But yeah, I, I'm not like a big musical theater guy, but I enjoy a musical, you know? Okay. Yeah. No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately though, the shop's been quiet.

[00:49:34] So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now Hank's has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at m365copilot.com slash work. And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match day spread. He's reaching for the Buffalo wing.

[00:50:04] Perfect. Hang on. What's this? Oh, he's going for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. And going back to what you said kind of at the beginning when you said, you know, you

[00:50:32] know, you kind of like dabble in guys and maybe lean towards girls. And I guess I was wondering why for you is the why for you? I feel like you're you're very out and proud about your about being bisexual when I think there, you know, could be pressure or like an easy route, quote unquote, easy route of, you know, if you're mostly dating women, you don't need to necessarily like hype that label. I know this is something we talked a lot in our episode with Andy last season about the importance. That was actually really an awesome. Oh, wow.

[00:51:02] I love that. Yeah, please, please. That being said, I it annoys me because it's another thing that like Andy came on 47 and aired right before my season and Andy has the same arc as I do. And then now he's come on and he's had the exact same like bisexual man who mostly dates women thing. Again, I don't need to do this. Andy's a big loser and you won. Oh, no. Andy keeps on stealing my shtick. Oh, I get to do it. It's infuriating.

[00:51:32] No, I love Andy. Andy's one of my favorite survivor characters. He's amazing. But yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one. I think it's something like, I don't know, maybe again, it's because I haven't experienced the negative social pressures of it where like I for me, it's just like a thing and it's not something that I would ever hide. Like I've got, I've never had a reason to really hide. Obviously during high school is a big thing to kind of come out.

[00:51:58] But since high school, it's never been a significant negative thing. It's just been a thing about me. Right. And to be fair, it's not something that I draw a huge amount of attention to. Right. Like it's not something that I, I'm like broadcasting from the rooftops, but it's just a part of me that I am not particularly drawing attention to, but also I'm not like making an effort. Like there's no reason for me to hide it, you know? Yeah. And it seems like that's, and I feel like also that you knew it and were able to speak it at such a young age.

[00:52:26] It's like, you're not going to put that genie back in the bottle, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's, and it's something I feel pretty comfortable with, right? Like, like, I think that the people who struggle with that a lot of the time are people who are not, obviously sometimes because of external social pressures, but oftentimes it's more that they're just not very comfortable in themselves. Yeah. And that's totally valid, but I'm some, like, I've never really experienced that.

[00:52:51] This is so interesting because like you also like are the first queer winner or first openly queer winner of Australian Survivor. Yeah. We, you know, obviously, you know, Parwadis right on your tail. So there's that. Yeah. The title, right? It's a pretty good, it's a pretty good group to be in. The queer Survivor winners. Who have found knowledge's powers as well. That's right. That's right. Something to it. Something to it. But I mean, what's, what's that like?

[00:53:20] Because it's, I mean, that's one of the headlines, obviously, that people use when they're like, oh, look, here's Miles, who's making history, not only in finding like the four idols, but also in this way, like, how does that feel to have that part of your identity again, which isn't like the biggest part of your identity, but how does it feel to have that like front and center at times for people? I mean, I'm pretty comfortable and it is cool. I love that.

[00:53:47] I can kind of be that representation for people mainly. Like initially when I was on that, as I said, I didn't really want to make it a particularly big deal. But like post Survivor and post seeing kind of the impact that it's had on people where I get a lot of really nice messages. I got a lot, I get a lot of messages like make about people who feel more comfortable in themselves because of like me succeeding. Right.

[00:54:13] And feel good because the narrative that they saw of me being able to kind of like push through all that. And what's great about Survivor is that, um, is that what you see is literally like everyone kind of being on me. And then by the end, everyone's turned around and voted for me. Right. Like I managed to pull everyone on side. Um, and so I, you know, I just love that I can be that for people. Right. And it's not something that I thought about. I didn't realize how much I would appreciate that while I was on there.

[00:54:40] And now afterwards, it's like the, the fact that there are people out there somewhere out there, there's some like half Asian bisexual, uh, pole dancing nerd kid, like 10 year old who's looking up and being like, I could be like him, you know? Um, and that's really cool. That's really cool. I know. I'm a friend. They're not, uh, they're not, they're not half Asian, but they, they are bisexual and they did, they did take a pole dancing class because they loved seeing you. I've gotten that. Wow.

[00:55:10] People, no, there's been people who've reached out to me and been like, oh, I tried pole dancing because I saw you pole dancing. And it's like, that's awesome. That's awesome. It's so much fun and more people should do it. And, and, and actually I've had quite a few pole dancers reach out to me and, and say that they really appreciate kind of the stigma side of what, of me with pole dancing. I'm like an unsexual human, right? Like, like, you know, like I like to feel sexy, but like my, how I'm presented on the

[00:55:37] show is, oh, this is like nerdy, quirky guy, Miles, right? I'm not one of the guys presented as like, not one of like the guys or gals who are like the sex symbols of the season, right? I'm like the strategist. I'm the nerd. I'm like fun and silly. And maybe to some people, but a lot of, I had quite a few pole dancers reach out to me and thank me for like kind of normal. Cause pole dancing, there's like a big stigma with regards to like, that it's obviously it's associated with sex work and for good reason.

[00:56:06] But like, that's the first thing everyone thinks it's associated with like really sexy women who are like being very like putting their body out there and whatnot, which is great. And that's what it should be associated with. But like, I think it's really, people have said that it's really good that there's just like a kind of normal guy doing it, right? Like it's just, it's a person who is so like the way I'm presented, unsexy that it's like, that it normalizes like, oh, and like, this isn't just a thing for like gorgeous strippers, right?

[00:56:34] It's a thing for, there's just people do for fun. Right. And, and I really like that I can be that as well. I think it is a shame they haven't had any other like, pole dancers on. And I know actually in the, um, in the casting for the last two seasons, there's been a couple of pole dancers who have made it like reasonably far in casting, but haven't, haven't managed to make it on. Um, who are like actual kind of pole, like, you know, pole dancers, right? Either instructors or strippers or whatever.

[00:57:02] Um, and that, I think that would be really cool, but I obviously I don't know how, like if the network is ready for that or not, but, um, yeah, it's really cool that we can have the pole dancing representation and very much pole dancing representation of it. It's not some like gorgeous, like skinny, muscly fit woman who like, though that is like a really fair representation of it, but for like normal, normal people, basically. Yeah. Normal survivor winners and stuff like that. Yeah. I do.

[00:57:31] I love, I love when you, when you all come back to camp and they, like you do, you do pole dance on the like bamboo. Oh, that is so fun as well. Cause my underwear is 40 days in at that time. My underwear is so loose and it's like, I know that my nuts are going to be popping out and the numbers are going to be blurring some stuff. But at that point it's like, it's for the content. Like, I don't care. All of my castmates have seen it, you know, like. And just to go to your, the, the thing you said about like feeling like you wished maybe

[00:57:58] you talked about some of these things more in the, in the show. I just want to like uplift that, like your journey as having been a survivor contested survivor winner, like isn't over just cause the show's over. Like, you know, you're here doing this interview now. And I think what's been something really cool for me is like, yeah, like, yes, I get comments every now and then that I should have voted for Xander. But mostly what I get is people, you know, reaching out because they're queer people that watch the show after and they're, you know, excited to have seen me.

[00:58:27] And I just think like, I know, and I'm, you know, it's already been a second since your season. Like people are going to continue finding you and, and it's like, it's undeniable who you are. And I just think like, um, it's an amazing example. And it's like, I do feel like there really is something to this thing of like, even like someone like George, he didn't win. And there is something in actually having, you know, the bisexual, biracial man win the show like is just cool. Um, and I just, uh, yeah.

[00:58:56] So, you know, thank you. I know you did it for us, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, I was thinking the whole time I was like, Evie would want me to stay strong. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Doing it for them. Yeah. This is amazing. No, I mean, look, you, I, I just have to take a moment. You did call Andy earlier. Do you have any words for Parvati, by the way, the other queer Australian survivor winner? Like, you know. I mean, Parvati's just amazing, right?

[00:59:23] Like, I, I don't know if I have any words because I think everything that needs to be said about Parvati has been said, right? Like she's just an icon, incredible survivor player. Like she, she's one that I really look at as well as being in that, like, uh, as, as someone that I really relate to more because she is like a strategist first and she does like piss people off sometimes. Like she, she is like blunt and kind of does things her own way.

[00:59:49] And like the queerness is like a really big part of her, but it's also not who she is, which I want to make it really clear as well that I don't have a problem with people who like queerness is like a big part of like that kind of main part of personality. I think Paul is probably someone who's like a really good rep for that. Um, but it's just like, that's not who I am. Right. And so it's about like kind of what I relate to and Parvati, you know, she's probably similar in that it's probably like point like three, four, five in the story of like, who is Parvati

[01:00:18] with point one being like insane social and social strategist. Um, yeah, she's just amazing. Right. And I feel very blessed that I am like the winner before her. Um, yeah, I was the person who kind of came on before her and got to even just be in the same conversation as her. Yeah. I kind of, yeah, that thing you're talking, you know, I think like Polly, like as an example in the show, like his jury question is like sort of like about Parvati.

[01:00:47] It's like, could you tell me something you're private? Like, I do think that is a thing he like really loved, but also like in the show, he talks about the like part of his journey. It was like, uh, I think it, does he get a letter from his dad? Yeah. Relationship with his dad. Yeah. And he had a really tough relationship with his dad. And I feel like there is, we're like, this has been really enlightening because I was sort of, as I was watching the show thinking like, yeah, there is this really interesting relationship between Miles and Polly. None of it is sort of that's coming up is, is sort of, um, like queerness is not front and center there.

[01:01:15] And I'm sort of sitting there being like, like maybe looking for it a little more, but it's been really enlightening. I think I almost feel like, uh, you know, getting you to come on to, obviously we're gonna like, you know, it's the pride is spoken. It's sort of like part of the point of this show, but putting a little bit on you to be like, please talk about like poking. You'll be like, talk about all the times you were sad about being queer. And you're like, that's not my story, you know? And actually it's like, it's something that will resonate, I think with a lot of, a lot of our listeners. So I really appreciate it. Um, yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:43] I think it's a, it's a, it's an interesting story that doesn't get told that much and for somewhat good reason, which is like, I think it's a, it's a less important story to tell because I think the important stories to tell are people who really struggle with their queerness. But as a result, it's a story that doesn't get told as much, which are people that are just like a bit gay. And like, like I really, you know, like it would have also been a perfect name for the episode. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:09] People are a bit gay and it doesn't really affect them in their normal life most of the time, but it's still like proud and it's still like definitively queer. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I really do think, I really do think like you're saying, like, it's not like the most important story to be told, but it is an important one. And I do think like, especially I feel like for men, like I think, I do just think like women, there's just less of that, you know, compulsively patriarchal. Yeah. I think especially for guys.

[01:02:38] Cause in women, like I do feel like the bisexual woman who mostly dates men thing is like a lot more normal for women. Um, and obviously there's issues with how that sometimes treated and presented, but versus for guys, it's a lot less of a thing. And like one thing that annoys me sometimes is that, that I have to deal with is like the vice, like by guys just being assumed to be gay and being treated as gay. Right. Which is like a classic thing that happens. And especially as someone who's like, as I said, mostly into women, um, is quite frustrating

[01:03:06] sometimes, but yeah, it's really cool. The other person who I realized was thinking about earlier about this, right. Who I'd flumbed into the same box as Aussie. I really like kind of representation as far as being someone who is just like, Aussie is like a bisexual man is my understanding, but is so many things before that. Right. Like, and was known like for so many things before that.

[01:03:31] And also it's like a pretty like awesome representative of traditional, of what you'd kind of describe traditional masculinity, but like, and not even in that kind of like jock gay kind of way where it's like, it's a really masculine dude, but like also very gay, you know, it's like you look at Aussie and you never really clock it from the outset that he's like a queer man. And he does like, it's, it's just a part of him that he's just bisexual.

[01:03:57] And you just like, again, it's like kind of three, four points down on the list of, of things about Oscar, you know? But I think that's really cool. Yeah. I think it's powerful though, too. Like, and just to echo what we've already been saying, like the fact that you're like, you contain multitudes, people contain multitudes. It's important for people to see they can be multiple things. I was at this comedy show on Sunday where someone was making this joke of like asking

[01:04:25] like, wait, am I black first or am I gay first in their case? And it's like, you're all the things at once. And like, I think that's an important lesson for people to take away too. So I, I really appreciate you like representing that, but also shining a light on that. Like people don't have to choose who they are. Like you are just who you are. And it could be like 10 different things. It could be a hundred different things. And it's okay to be a bit gay. You know? I just think that's a great lesson.

[01:04:53] I do think the story you're talking is kind of like, I think what we, like I sort of envision is like, I hope that like, I hope that there are kids now the way that they're, the way that they will experience their, it will be a little more like, it is not this like super, it's like, oh yeah, I think, you know, I think I might be attracted to Leonardo DiCaprio and Romeo and Juliet. So I think I'll tell my friends and they tell their friends and then their friends are like, that's okay. That's great. And that's kind of what they're like. Yeah. Especially because I think the media representation for kind of bisexual guys, I think you're talking

[01:05:21] about this with like Andy, like the, the bisexual man media representation is not fantastic. And like very much the queer man media representation is very like flamboyantly gay in a way that like, you know, like is, is great. And to be fair, that's a side I think should be represented the most because I think it's the most important to represent, but like for a lot of people isn't going to, isn't going to be something that they relate to. A hundred percent.

[01:05:49] I mean, like when I was growing up, the only lesbian I knew about was Ellen. Like that was the only, is there other? I mean, I didn't realize it was a lesbian. Married to an Australian, no? Yeah. Am I right? Am I right? Oh yeah. Portia. Yeah. Another famous queer Australian. So true. No, but point being just like, yeah, it's like, you know, the most obvious thing about representation is the more examples you have, the more different types of people and different types of experiences you get to see. Right. Yeah.

[01:06:18] One thing I wanted to ask actually, and like, this could be, I feel like a totally no question, but like, do you think there's anything particularly different about like queerness or queer culture in Australia, in Australian culture? Do you think that there is, or, you know? I'm not sure. I think, so firstly, I think it's easier to be queer in Australia than it is in America. I think it's like less of a cultural issue here. Like I do think that even the kind of more kind of right wing conservative side of Australian

[01:06:47] culture have like mostly, like, like have gotten a lot more over queerness and like, you know, homosexuality than kind of some of you lot, some of you Americans have. I do feel like I'm, I'm Canadian. I do feel like there, there, there is some synergy. Yeah. Not to be like, are you Americans? But like Commonwealth country, where I feel like the Canada and Australia. Yeah. The thing about Canadian culture is I, I think that that's true also. And then there are also, there's like, for us, it's like hockey broke up.

[01:07:14] There's like, there are certain, obviously still within, you know, westernized. We got that with like rugby culture. That's sort of, yeah. There could be, there is some like bro culture energy stuff that I could imagine could still be hard to come out. But yeah. Generally, there is a little bit more of a progressive. Yeah. I think we've also got, I think probably more queer representation, like, especially as far as gay men, like on mainstream TV, I feel like, and I could be, I could be wrong about it.

[01:07:43] I'm just thinking about like comedians and TV presenters. And we've got quite a few, especially because we've got kind of a smaller media landscape than you guys do, right? So it's harder to be kind of trapped inside your own circle bubble media wise in Australia. There's a lot, like if you're watching just any mainstream TV, there will be some level of queer representation, basically, unless you're watching like Sky News, which is our like very right wing news broadcaster.

[01:08:10] But I'm talking, if you're talking about watching like any entertainment TV, there will be queer people on it, specifically gay men most of the time. Yeah. So, but other than that, I'm not, I'm not sure to be honest what. I don't know. Yeah. I didn't prep you with that yet. I'd be like, by the way, I'm going to ask you. But I think, no, but I do think that the political situation, like if there's not a strong, like right wing homophobic wing, like I think. Our right wing side is like all focused on immigration, basically.

[01:08:40] Like, in fact, the last election, what happened is that the conservative party kind of tried to import some of the kind of like culture war stuff. And it really, like the Australian right wing is a lot less culture war-y. It's a lot more kind of immigration and economics focused in a way. But like, I obviously, I disagree with, but I think is kind of good, especially because the

[01:09:06] inherently the way Australian politics works with preferential voting is that, and mandatory voting is that it's important to hold the center. The center dictates Australian politics as opposed to kind of motivate your base to come out. No, you've actually got to motivate the middle to vote for you, essentially. It's happening in Canada, too. Yeah. Somewhat of a check on just how bad that can get. And even you look at the most, there has been a surge in conservative politics in Australia,

[01:09:32] but it's like very focused on immigration as opposed to, immigration and some economic stuff as opposed to like queer bashing. Immigration, that happens here, too. The only one exception I would say is there can still be an appetite for like anti-trans stuff in Canada, where it's like a little, there's a little bit of like, we've agreed that same-sex marriage is like not going to be repealed, but. Well, yeah, the conservatives in Australia also kind of have that, but it's really not a really big part of their platform, interestingly.

[01:10:00] Like, it's not something that they're super vocal about. And as I said, in the last election, they tried to, and it kind of really backfired. Love that. Well, maybe a good segue here. We typically do ask folks if you're doing anything for Pride. Do you do anything for Pride, Miles? Also, this is a dumb question, but is Pride in June in Australia? Yeah. Pride, it is Pride in Australia, but Pride is a lot less of a big fit.

[01:10:27] Like, I really, when I'm thinking about gay celebrations, like Mardi Gras is really good in Sydney. So the like two weeks leading up to Mardi Gras is massive in like the gay community in Sydney. Less so in other cities. I know Melbourne, it's like still somewhat big. Other cities less so, but Sydney has like one of the biggest Mardi Gras celebrations in the world. So Pride is less so. I haven't really got anything particular planned for Pride, but our big one is Mardi Gras and

[01:10:56] that's where like I'd get loose, you know. When does that happen? Yeah. And what did you do for Mardi Gras last year? Yeah. Well, last year, well, this year I actually wasn't here for Mardi Gras because I was in Japan with Caelan and AJ skiing. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. That's so fun. Yeah. So I didn't miss it this year to be with the boys. That's very sweet. Yeah. Yeah. So that, but it would be like, you know, going, we have like a massive parade and you go

[01:11:24] to the parade and you get really drunk and then you go out to a bar afterwards or whatever, you know, like classic things. And wait, and is the gay bar that you worked at still open and what's it called and should people go there? Yeah. It's the oldest gay bar in Sydney. It's called Dallas. It's a bit of a dump now. I'm not going to lie, but I mean, it's a fun time, right? It's not one of the places I would go if I was going out, but I mean, it's a really nice kind of building and it's got a lot of history in it. Yeah. To be fair, you did have to be paid to be there. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:54] But no, this, this is awesome. Look, you, there's so much there, but I have to ask, like, are you, I would love to see you performing pole dancing sometime. Like, could we get a performance like at some point? Not on the podcast. This is mainly an audio media, but I mean, is, are you coming out of pole dancing? I don't know if you're in retirement right now or semi-retirement. I mean, I, uh, you're welcome to watch the pole dancing clips on Instagram.

[01:12:20] I have a second Instagram account that I linked to where I put all my pole dancing stuff. Right. Um, so there's all that there as far as like live performance. I don't know. That's terrifying. Like it's scary enough pole dancing alone, let alone pole dancing in front of people. It's so funny. Cause I'm like me out on an Island, like playing survival all the time. Easy. Like that totally disassociating, like forgetting that there's cameras and there's going to be like thousands, like hundreds of thousands of people watching me.

[01:12:46] Um, but pole dancing, that's when the fucking anxiety fight or flight kicks in, you know? Fair enough. Gosh, I, well, I want to ask you though, like as we kind of near the end of this, um, you know, you, as we've talked about a lot in this conversation, like you represent so many different identities and I'm, you know, in thinking about someone who is a future player who might similarly represent many of those identities, including being queer.

[01:13:13] Like, is there advice that you'd have for them, uh, as they go out on survivor? Yeah. One, one thing that was really interesting for me is, and this happened both pre and post swap is obviously both of them. I kind of started on the out. So a lot of that because of like personality traits of mine that my, a, my inability to kind of form those fast social bonds and then traits of mine that may have like put me on the outs. And then what happened is that over time with both of them, as the people around me spent more time with me, we built stronger connections and ended up like both of those

[01:13:43] tribes, I ended up in fantastic positions. And by the end of it, where I was aligned with like most of the people on the tribe, because like, as people spent the time, like getting to know me, they actually kind of came around to me. And I think it's important, um, to understand that like, if you, you don't need to, obviously it may, you may be the one who gets voted out first or second, but, and that's like really unfortunate, but generally you don't need to not be yourself.

[01:14:12] Like you, if you are yourself, isn't it? Here's what it is. You need to be yourself. If yourself is not a dick. Cause I do hear people being like, Oh, go out there and be yourself. Some people should be a bit less of themselves, honestly. But if you are yourself and you are positive and you're enthusiastic and you try and like bring light to people's day, then regardless of if people kind of find you weird a little bit at the start or like off put by you or whatever, like they will kind of come around to you. And that's kind of what happened with me.

[01:14:42] Like once they spend enough time and put the effort into like getting to know you. Um, and so like, I, I'm worried that like, I sometimes worry that people look at my story and be like, Oh, look at what happened to him at the start. We need to kind of downplay our more, our more interesting and out there. Um, like personality traits or like characteristics or whatnot. And I think it's kind of the opposite.

[01:15:05] I think it's the fact that you can thrive if you like, regardless of your post of like how you present and whatnot. Um, and I, but I think one thing that's really important as well is to kind of be aware of the negative aspects and be aware of how people are going to like perceive you and then kind of adjust to that. And that's something that like with the, you mentioned earlier with the data points, I did this, those who don't know, I did a survey before going out of what all my friends and family didn't like about me. Right. I got like them to rank their three least favorite traits of mine.

[01:15:35] And so I was like really aware of what people are going to be annoyed by and pissed off by, by me and what people wouldn't like and whatnot. Um, and then being able to do that gives you a lot of power with regards to how you can adjust to that. So it's like, be, don't be afraid to be yourself as long as yourself is like positive and fun and enthusiastic and kind and caring and whatever. But you know, I, I literally think that, yeah, I, I co-sign all of that. And I just think like authenticity is the most attractive quality.

[01:16:02] Like no matter what it is, like we were talking about this with Carolyn last week, I think about on my season, the driver Sydney, who, you know, has gone on to awesome on the challenge. Like she is objectively, you look at her and you're like, why is this person charming? But there's something so charming about someone just being like, oh, I'm the best. I know. Especially in Survivor, right? In Survivor where everyone is kind of trying to like be like pretend and bullshit you. Being someone who is authentically yourself will make people inherently trust you a little

[01:16:31] bit better because they're like this person. They are exactly who they say they are. Yeah, exactly. And then you can, you know, lie about who you're voting for. But they think they're not as good. Yeah, exactly. It's a Survivor. But like Miles, as we get toward the end, any words for your queer Survivor fans or your queer fans, I should say? Um, oh, I don't know. Thank you. Thank you, everyone who's been a fan of me. That's really cool.

[01:17:01] Yeah, I think my story is proof that you can be yourself and people will appreciate you for that. And it's something and it was something that happened out on the island. It was something that happened with the public as well. Like I very much and it's something that I've luckily never had issues with being myself. Like I've always been very confident, being very happy to be myself and like never really worried about the backlash.

[01:17:26] But for people who might have like anxieties about that, I think you just need to look at kind of my story and what happened and like look at that as, hey, no, the, if you are, people will value the authenticity. And I think something that's even more notable for me is the fact that like, if you look at postseason, I'm one of the people from our past who probably is the most friendship, genuine friendship still with my, like within my cast because people value that authenticity

[01:17:52] and value when you are like an interesting, fun, quirky personality. And it's something that like a lot of people try to hide and I think it's a really big shame. Hell yeah. Yeah. Miles, where can you mentioned you have your, you have an Instagram account and you have an Instagram account where you put some of your pole dancing. Anything else you want to plug? I, we didn't even get to, I wanted to chat with you about Alien Man, which is a song you released earlier. Oh, yeah. I released some music. It's just like a little side hobby of mine.

[01:18:22] But yeah, you can find it at Miles Quar on Spotify. On Instagram, you can find Miles Quar on Instagram. And then I've got a second pole dancing Instagram account that's in the bio of my main account. If you want survivor stuff, you can, you can follow me on Twitter, Miles M Quar. And that's where like I put out survivor content and thoughts and whatnot. Like I was tweeting a lot during like survivor 50 and survivor 49. And while I like survivor redemption was airing, like, yeah, especially with Australian survivor stuff.

[01:18:52] So if you want kind of survivor analysis and thoughts, like Twitter is the way to go. And Evie, junglerat.com, you can get a rat pole dancing t-shirt. Oh, I don't know. I don't actually know. Oh, no. I need to check. I need to check. Cause they might be fine. They expire. Well, they, the listings expire after a while. And I don't think I was bothered to renew them last time. They expired. Well, you can't, you can't get a, but you can, you really want one. You can see Miles in a rat pole dancing shirt.

[01:19:20] And maybe DM Miles and see if we can get those shirts. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I can sort something out for you if you really want one. All right, Miles. Thank you so much for coming on. This was such a treat. Your first international survivor. This was a good one to start. Oh, yeah. Thank you so much, Miles. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. What a wonderful interview with Miles. That was such a treat. So exciting. So lovely. Make sure you send in your clips for our special episode bonus content where you get to be featured in the episodes yourself.

[01:19:50] Make sure you buy some merch and use hashtag the pride has spoken on social media for the episode. Let's do our plug our social media. Matt, where can people find you? Matt Scott GW on Instagram on Blue Sky and all the platforms. Check me. Check me out. Check me out. Check me out. And you can find me at Evie Jag on Instagram. That's really the main one. So, you know, start there. I'm on social media at High Frank Grace. All right. We'll see you all next week.

[01:20:20] Until then. The pride has spoken.