The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 21: Carolyn Wiger

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[00:00:59] Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where Aura comes in. Aura actively removes your data from broker sites and

[00:01:25] keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But Aura goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 US-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. Aura gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one

[00:01:53] service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Welcome back to The Pride has Spoken. This is episode two of series five. How exciting. My name

[00:02:20] is Grace. I use she, her pronouns, and our lovely crew of folks are here. We're all going to introduce ourselves. Why don't you go first, Matt? Yeah, I'm Matt Scott. My pronouns are he, him. I'm thrilled to be here. And I'm Evie Jagoda. And I use they, them pronouns. And I'm also so excited to be here for our first real full episode of The Pride has Spoken this season. So excited. So excited to be here with

[00:02:45] you all. Last week was just a little tease, but a good tease, I think. Yes. Yeah. Lovely to hear people be excited about the show. So yeah. And it's the last time we recorded, it was not Pride Month. And now it is Pride Month. So happy Pride, everybody. I mean, everybody are, they already, we already told them. Happy Pride, yeah. Evie, happy Pride, especially to you, who's, you know, really going back to the roots of Pride and using it as a way, a means to protest. Yes. Thank you, Grace. Thanks for the setup.

[00:03:14] Yeah. If you don't follow me on social media, you know, I posted a lot about this past weekend was Boston Pride. And first of all, it was really fun. I was having a great time marching with Unite Here, which is a union. And I was marching with my friend who works there. And I look around and see that a candidate, a Democratic candidate for Senate, Seth Moulton, who's trying to primary Ed Markey,

[00:03:41] our current, one of our senators, was there and was marching in Pride. And that made me very mad because Seth Moulton's campaign literally is based upon him launching to national prominence by saying that Kamala lost because of trans kids. And we basically have to, you know, be common sense about dumping trans issues or Democrats will never win. And then he has the audacity to come to Pride and try

[00:04:07] to get people's votes by pretending to stand with the queer community. And it really, really upset me. And so I confronted him and, you know, basically explicitly asked him about the things that he said and how much they hurt me. And he basically lied and said that he didn't mean to say that, even though that's literally exactly what he said. And he doubled down on it several times after

[00:04:32] the original comments. And then he walked away from me while saying we need to have these important conversations. And so I personally will not be voting for Seth Moulton. And if you live in Massachusetts, I don't think you should either. And I would really appreciate if people would react to the video. It's on my Instagram at Evie Jag. You know, it's entering the part of the viral video cycle where it's hitting the transphobes now. So the ratio is getting worse. So I would really

[00:04:59] appreciate it. People get in there, show it some love. Laverne Cox commented on it today. We have made it. And it honestly... Wait, hold on. Message about next week just to get a new guest on the pod. Yeah. Yeah. Wait a minute. Yeah. Laverne Cox and many, many of our survivor allies and friends. So I thank everyone for doing that. And so many of you listening. Thank you all so much

[00:05:28] for the support. Really, really makes it easier to be brave and do things like this. And I just want to say like, yeah, pride is a protest. Pride is about standing up for gay rights. And it was literally like started by movements led by trans women. The idea that gay people or Democrats in general will reach power by throwing away our most marginal and vulnerable members of our community is totally

[00:05:56] wrong. It's not just morally wrong. I think it's literally like practically wrong. If you are willing to throw away one group of people, you'll be willing to throw away anyone. And that's the type of politician that Seth Moulton is. And people should not be allowed to come to Pride and just think they can kiss babies and shake hands and not have to actually stand with the queer community. So if you see any local transphobic representatives or queer, anti-homophobic... I was like,

[00:06:24] what's the word for when you hate gay people? Yeah. Homophobic... Anti-homophobic... I'm anti-homophobic. That's also my drag name. New merch. Yeah. And also, yeah, stop kissing our gay babies. Yeah. You politicians. Don't try to turn our gay babies straight. Get away. Get away. No, but seriously, politicians are supposed to... Are out there trying to get our votes and they should be held account for what they say. So that was awesome that I was able to do that.

[00:06:53] And I really appreciate everyone's support so much. It was awesome that you were able to do that. And just like so proud of you and thankful for you because we live in a time where fear is a tactic and people want us to be afraid to speak up and want trans people to be afraid to speak up and all sorts of groups to be afraid to speak up. And you doing that and modeling that and showing that, it's badass, first of all. But I hope that inspires other people, like you said, to speak up and stand up and do what's

[00:07:23] right rather than being afraid of like, I don't know, being afraid of all the stories that people tell us of the horrible things that will happen. So thank you, Evie. And... I also think it looked cool and you did it with like your shirt off. Yeah. It's like, you look real cool. It's like cool. It's like a cool image. It's like cannot be more striking for him to be next to you. I think it's so rad. Thank you. I know. Yeah. I was going to say on that note, like I wanted to, I don't, I think I'd put like

[00:07:49] a little like trans, like heart gift on my story, but I'm like, how do I place this where it's not over Evie at all? That's right. It was so, it was so, uh, yeah. I feel like that worked out so great because the reason I was shirtless is because I was wearing the union t-shirt and I didn't want, so when I went to go do the video, I didn't want to just like, like make it so that the union was like part of the whole thing. Yeah. And then I was like, wait, this is epic. It is epic. That's actually so funny. Yeah. It is.

[00:08:17] Well, it's also just like notable, at least from how you're explaining it, that it's just a thing that happened and you don't need to plan for these moments. But I think when you, what's the saying when you, you don't have to get ready if you stay ready or something like that. No, I think that's the truth. I think like a lot of people said, you know, I don't think I'd be able to speak, you know, that clearly or anything like that. And it's like, I truly just was like, what do I feel about this? And I do think if you speak, you know, from I and your

[00:08:45] experience of a person, that's, that's a really good starting point. And if you, whether you are saying what you believe, what you heard they said and did, anything like that and how it affected you, I think is a really, really good approach. And, um, lovely modeling that the community will support you. People are really supporting me in the comments and stuff. And, you know, take a lesson from Joe, that block button is free. There's no limit. And the number of people with zero posts and under 10 followers that, uh, think they're

[00:09:15] really brave on the internet. Those are bots. They're bots anyway. Yeah. I mean, not to dismiss that there aren't real trans jobs in the world, but also his bots. Yeah. Or they don't have friends. Yeah. I'll stop time at this, except to say one more thing, which is that people, Democrats acting like it's brave of them to stay, to be like, I bravely am actually against trans people is so ridiculous. Like trans people are some of the most marginalized people. Trans

[00:09:43] children are some of the least powerful people in our society. And for this like adult congressman to be like, I'm so brave that I will stand up against trans kids and then literally run away from trans people at pride is stupid. So that's good. There's a, there's a really great, if anybody knows the comedian, James Ancaster, he's British. He does a very, very good bit about how the ridiculous like argument of transphobes is. He's like, those trans people have had a good for too long, you know, I got to take them

[00:10:12] down and peg, but I do want to say for real, uh, uh, which is, I do think what's disappointing about a politician spouting these lines is that they have resources and ability to be able to have, to figure out like what the real experiences of people are. I do think like if you in your head, I think there might, there could be people listening now who think like, Oh, I don't think like, you know, uh, trans people should play in the sport. That's different, you know, that's different than, you know, like I think like, you know, go and listen to

[00:10:39] some people talk about what that experience is actually like. And you'll probably quickly learn that like, it is not this big, like anti got, you know, it's not this like horrific thing that we're talking about, you know, like gender affirming care for kids is like, and then also like even stuff where it is like technically a minor, it goes through so much, like there's so much like parental and individual and doctor consent and like all of this stuff. So it's like, there's so much fear mongering and misinformation out there. And so like, I think what's extra disappointing in this situation is that like this individual

[00:11:06] could just go do the research before he like publicly says a thing. Um, for people who are listening, who have those, like, I don't know how many there are listening, but just go, you know, meet some, meet some trans people, talk to some trans people. They're real. And you came to the right place. That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but, and, and genuinely, I just want to like, yeah, affirm everything you're saying, Grace, a hundred percent. There's so much fear mongering out there. Like it's, it's okay to think for, you know, it's like, like, oh, you know,

[00:11:34] maybe that has some logic to it, but I think it's really important to remember that these narratives are also being fed to us by the right, by transphobic people. Like the right decided to make sports an issue because it seems like a common sense thing. And mostly the vast, vast, vast majority of what we're talking about is like children in schools. There was a really good comment in my, on the post saying like, I don't know what to tell that guy, but every gym class I ever did in

[00:11:59] high school was co-ed and I survived playing dodgeball with people of all genders and it was fine. So like, that's kind of generally what we're talking about. I'm also going to say, I've, I've, there was a, a, a survivor player who called me once and was like, my family doesn't believe that trans people should, uh, compete in, uh, in, like in, in other sports. And like, I don't know what to, how to like, like debate them basically, but, and also be, they were like acknowledging like part of it is their own ignorance to not feel like,

[00:12:28] like there's part of them has felt like, yeah, maybe there is some logic to that. Uh, if you're willing to have like an honest conversation about this thing, I'm not inviting people who are like trans people shouldn't play in sports, uh, into my DMS, but if you want to have an, a real conversation about it, I'm open, you know, happy to chat. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, yeah. I was also going to say as someone who's not trans, like, yeah, feel free to DM me and put the weight on me. And then I could, we could have this conversation too. Um, but people oftentimes

[00:12:56] say that they want to have a conversation and they don't. So yeah. Like Seth Moulton, who said he just wants to have a conversation and then fully walked away from me. That's right. Um, okay. So like 10 minutes ago, I thought of a really great segue to the next, which is you, Evie, you took your shirt off, but actually if you want to put a really great shirt on, we have new token merch. Yeah. I thought about that so long. I'm kind of so worried we're too far. So now I have to make a joke about how we're too far. So we have new merch designed by the wonderful graphic designer, Jose, who is amazing. And

[00:13:22] thanks to Derek, uh, uh, you know, patron Derek, the patron saint, I like to call him, um, for helping us put together a lot of this stuff. Uh, so it's, uh, Rob is a podcast, uh, but Rob is a website.com slash merch or slash store. Either of those work. There is a lovely collection of new merch you can get. We added this year, not just a new design for t-shirts and for anything else you want, crop tops. Yes. Tops. I'm still trying to figure out the hats. The hat printing seems to be not

[00:13:51] loving our logo. So, you know, uh, we'll figure it. We'll see if we can figure that out. Put a shirt, put a, put a buff on your head, you know, wear it on your head. Like you can wear a crop top on your head. If you just tie it around your head, like there's so many things that are replacements for hats, stickers as well. So, um, all of that merch is available. All the proceeds, the profits from these shirts are going to be going to three different charities. We each picked one. We have Rainbow Railroad, which is helping, uh, trans folk, uh, access and, and navigate to, uh, safer, uh,

[00:14:20] states or different locations to help, uh, with their care. 10 Oaks Project does a lot of great LGBTQ summer camp and youth programs, uh, some swim nights, things like that. And Sisters PGH, which is a housing, uh, uh, uh, and, um, uh, safe housing and self-determination for trans folks across Pittsburgh. So those are the locations. We also shouted out a bunch in the last episode of different charities that people suggested to us. Those were in the show notes from last week. So check those out and donate if you, uh, like any of those, but make sure you buy some, some merch.

[00:14:47] There are only about a hundred buffs available. We heard about a hundred buffs. Um, uh, I think that they're available in the store. It might not ask you for all your information yet because it's a little bit of a different shipping process. So don't worry about that. We will get you a buff if you order a buff, unless you're more than a hundred people and then you won't be able to buy a buff. So get them while they're hot. Uh, Matt, we have a special, we're going to do some special events later. We have a little special thing we want to do. Yes, absolutely. Like one of the things that

[00:15:15] we want to do is include, uh, you, the listeners in the podcast. And so, um, as I've done recently on my other podcast pod friends, we're inviting you, uh, and members of the LGBTQ plus community who are listeners, um, to share, um, to share what being LGBTQ plus in the survivor community means to you. All of us have heard from listeners, um, or people in the community about that through various avenues

[00:15:43] over the last several years, but we finally want to include that in the podcast. And so if you want to share your story in a minute or less, uh, we're inviting you to submit it by Sunday, June 21st. And the link is bit.ly slash tphs2026. That's bit.ly slash tphs2026. We'll put that link in the show

[00:16:07] notes and also share that out more broadly, um, cause we want to hear from you and have all of our lovely listeners also hear from you with your story and what, um, being queer in this community has meant to you. So that's video or audio. And again, uh, by June 21st. And two things I want to say about this one, that idea originated someone at some RHEP event suggested

[00:16:33] it. One of you listening. I pretty sure it was someone at the last New York live show. So if that was you, great idea. That was the gayest of all the live shows, I think. Yeah. I don't know. And they're all pretty freaking gay. They're all gay. Yeah. Wait, by the way, as a side note, yeah, like 50 to a hundred people got a bunch of Pride has spoken pins at that event as well. So yes, such a gay event. But yes, somebody there. Thank you for plugging. Yes, Evi holding up the pin

[00:17:01] made by WhatUpTim, an incredible ally. Thank you, Tim. It's so sweet and it has our names on it, which is really cute. I love it. It really is. And Dr. Evi Jogoda, which I love. Yes. So, yes. Um, this is amazing. And then second thing, yeah. The second thing was, you know, this is just a little, um, a little challenge. The last two seasons of Pride is Spoken, we've had someone come out on the Pride is Spoken. That's so true. And now this is your chance. Yeah, that's true. The fans, we don't have one this year. So if you could do it as a fan,

[00:17:30] that would be great. That would be awesome. So whatever you want to say, but would love, you know, this is, this is a safe, loving space to be yourself. So lovely. Okay. I also just want to say something cool that I heard recently that I loved because there's the idea of coming out, but, uh, I've heard people reframing it as inviting people in. So I don't know if that could become a thing, but, um, come out or invite people in, invite us in, invite the listeners in,

[00:17:59] uh, and, uh, we're here to support you. Okay. So fun. I think people maybe have heard enough of, I mean, we're still going to be on the episode, but, uh, there you do have a special guest and people have seen in the episode title. So Abby, who do we have joining us today? We have the one, the only Carolyn Weiger from Survivor season 44 and the Traders season four, three, four, three, three, three, three, three. Yeah. And Traders season three.

[00:18:29] Um, and as you all know, Carolyn rocks and she always has such interesting to say. And I don't think we've heard that much of her talking about her queerness publicly. So really excited to talk to her. Super excited. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in

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[00:20:18] It is my honor to welcome to the Pride has Spoken, the one, the only, Carolyn. Hello, Carolyn. Thank you so much for being here. Of course, primary claim to fame being my roommate at the Over the Edge in Florida this year. That's right. Many other accolades as well, like being the star of Survivor 44 and The Traitors season 4. So we're so honored to have you. Season 3, Evie. Come on.

[00:20:46] But also season 4, if you think about it. Might as well have been season 4, too. Yeah, there was no real stars on season 4. And season 5. No, not even Rob. There were no stars on season 4? No, no. We're not saying that. We're not saying that. No. None. Stop. Do y'all believe that? Well, obviously, we're not. No, there were, yeah, Rob Cesternino was a big star. No, it just rolls up the tongue. Survivor 44, season 4. Yeah. Easy mistake. We love stars.

[00:21:14] And I only have eyes for you, Carolyn. You know, it's like that. Which, what the fuck? Why does everybody hate season 44 now? Do they? You know what? Actually, no, that's weird. People are so weird about season 44. Like, they're not. I thought season 44 was awesome. I thought there were Emmy Awards on the way. Like, all the... I don't know what happened, Carolyn. So, what happened? The other seasons? And again, I was like, I'm happy for 43. I recently saw some ranking thing, and 43 was above 44. I was like... No.

[00:21:45] Which, I'm like, I get it. Like, I felt so bad for 43 when 44... I did, because there was so much negative. And so, I'm like, oh, give it to them! But, I was like, within the last, I would say, year or two, I just keep seeing, like, everyone hates 44, which is okay if you don't like it. Do you think there's just, like, new era fatigue? Do you think it's just, like, it's not about 44, it is just, like, you know, there was a little of...

[00:22:12] Like, we saw the same thing for 10 seasons. Do you think that that could be... Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is why, like, it's like... And even when you look at season 50, it was like, they definitely, they forgot all of... Am I right? All of the first half of the new era, what the hell? Yeah. All of it. Yeah. All of it. Well, Jonathan. But other than that, every season was forgotten. And it's like, what's crazy to me, too, when thinking about, like, casting and, like...

[00:22:40] It's like, I never in a million years would have thought, like, just viewership-wise... That they would bring people back that just... I know we've seen it before, but, like, that just played for 50 years. And to just completely, if you're going to do that many new era, just to be like, sorry, the rest of it. It was like, where's the rest of the new era?

[00:23:06] And why double up on every season and put all these tears in there? Why not add some different people from... Carolyn, our concern is that, you know, right here on this pod, that Survivor is not very queer. It was not. It was like a little... There was a little, you know... Thank you, Chris. You had Mike and Ozzy, you know? That's like, you know... Bisexuals. That's it. Which, as a bisexual, I feel like we need even more representation on this season. You want more of my representation? 20, I want... No.

[00:23:36] Well, yeah, sure. Let's get... Like, we'll get Carolyn in there. We'll have some pan representation. Like, come on. It's fine. Evie, come on. Evie. That's right. Absolutely. Sorry. I got thrown for a sec about you asking me if I was bisexual. And then I was like, how much am I going to share about the times that I've hooked up with other trans boys? And then been like, maybe I'm bi for like girls and trans boys. And it's different and fun. But I think it's more like...

[00:24:06] But it is different and it is fun. And I think I do like same and do like different. So if that's what we're doing here, that's what's happening. So, Carolyn. No, I want to talk... Is pan how you identify? Does that feel like the best? I... How I... Absolutely how I identify. And that came... Or not early on. It came when I got sober. It came... Because I can't be like... I came out of the womb and was like... I know. But when I got sober and found out...

[00:24:36] Or tried to just discover who I actually was... It became this like self... Like I was just like reading and writing. And I spent so much time just trying to like figure out who I was. What... Like my purpose. All of those types of things. And it just felt the most comfortable for me. The most natural for me. And so I'm like... And then comes like the exploration phase. But that was like when I was 22.

[00:25:04] And when I truly feel like I like was born. Truly. Like in years of year. I got sober. I discovered like who I really am. And that just made the most sense to me. So... No, absolutely. I think that's beautiful. Because it reminds me of a friend of mine who... I think at like 25 realized that he was bi. And it like... I almost can't wrap my head around it. Because I'm like... Oh, but like of course there are signs.

[00:25:33] Like I knew about myself at some point earlier. But like what I'm learning is so many people find more about themselves along the way. Like how did that... Could you say more about like how you realized that through reflection and just like slowing down and being sober? Well, A, being sober. Also, I was traumatized by sex. Can I say that? Yeah. Oh yeah, you guys talk about that. Okay. So like... That's what we're here to do. That might be the tamest...

[00:26:03] One of the tamest topics we've had. No, no. Please. And I don't want to sound disrespectful to like... Because I've had periods in my life where it was like, I hate men. I hate them. I'm in one right now. And so... I very much like... But it's like I can't like... Okay, I hate men right now. But I'll go back. No. But it very much was like... I felt like... Like sex was just like so disturbing with a man.

[00:26:29] But also, it was like I felt so much safer with a woman. It was the safety thing. And... But I can't even say man, woman. It was like person. Truly. It was like... And so as I learned about myself and as I learned like... Oh my gosh. I no longer like to like just sit around and have like this small talk BS conversation. And it's... For me, when I'm connecting, it's like that's my attraction. That's my like... I'm like... That's what I need.

[00:26:59] Which isn't that like some... What do you call that? No. Like Demi or something. Yeah. So I'm like... What? How many labels are there? Yeah. What? Yeah. I need that. And that's when I'm like... Okay, that like... This just makes sense. Whoa, whoa. I didn't know I felt this way. And it's the safety. It's the connection. It's... Because it's so much more to me than just like... Oh, I'm a... I don't have a type. I don't... Sure. Be like a human. That's it. Yeah. I don't have a type.

[00:27:29] I don't even have one. No, that really speaks to me like in general about... I feel like there's the kind of a conception of like... Yeah, your sexuality is just like raw factor. Like if you just see a picture of a person, like who are you attracted to? You know? And you should just be able to do that. But so much of attraction is the actual, you know, the chemistry, the person, the safety, your own experiences that you've brought into that. Like I think so much about like...

[00:27:53] Yeah, my interest with men or masculine people in general is so different now that I am me in the gender expression that I am now versus me when I was acting as pretending to be being seen as a woman, a straight woman. Like and the roles in which that would put me in romantic or sexual experiences with men felt so wrong. Like over time. That was clearly wrong.

[00:28:23] And then it's like what piece of that is the me piece? Is the them piece? A lot of therapy. A lot. And it's like I'm kind of at a point too like where it's like all the trauma that I've faced, it's like has changed me. And it's like in... That's okay. Like I have to like have acceptance with it. But I cannot change the way that I feel even like... And I know it's like it's the human I'm connected to.

[00:28:52] However, it's like I would say more so I'm going to feel way more safe with a woman than a man. I just... Maybe I just have not met. Like I don't feel... It's not as natural and it doesn't feel safe to me. And so... Or just like the... Like again, the roles and like the... Where you feel like you have to like be this person to... And it's not like that typically if I'm with a woman. But can I... There's one thing to obviously...

[00:29:21] I think all of us have been through where like it's like... Oh, like I realized something. Like oh, I know. Like yeah. And then it's another thing to actually sort of come out was... Can you talk a little bit about that experience? Like to family or friends or... You know, what... Was that a... Does it... Was it just like I'm out or was it like... Yeah, well, I feel like I want to hear the Carolyn coming out story. I wasn't. My best friend, she passed away in 2021. She was a lesbian. Oh, sorry. It was a horror... Truly horrible.

[00:29:50] But I still like I talk to her every day. I love that. Like a part of my life. Her name was Kyla. And she... And I don't even want to say she was a lesbian. Like she liked women. Because she hated labels. And so she truly inspired me to like... She's like... This was her thing. She's like straight people don't need to announce to the world. And again, I get also on the other end of things how important it is to announce to the world that like... I'm gay or I...

[00:30:19] Because that is... Serves its purpose and is... Is... We're a representation. All of that stuff. But she's like... Straight people don't make some big announcement. So I'm not either. And she just started introducing her girlfriends. And it was like... It was just normal. Like she just made it. It was just normal. And so I did the same thing. I remember... My dad was asking me like... I had a date or something. This was... Gosh. Obviously a long time ago.

[00:30:49] And I'm like... Well, yeah. I've been talking to this... Yeah. It's a woman. And he didn't even... Like it didn't even faze him. It did not... Like you know what I'm saying? There was no like... What are you doing? Or... It was just... Was that... Were you expecting that from your... Like was that... No. Yeah. I mean... I grew up in such a... Yes. Very liberal. Very accepting. Which like... Oh, thank God. But like... It was just... Yeah. Right. Like acceptance. But it was like... Okay.

[00:31:19] Like love who you're gonna love. And that's how I was always taught. Like just growing up. Kindness. And I try to teach my son that. Like above all else... Kindness. Like be kind. Be kind. Be kind. And accepting. We're all different. And we're all... Like that's what's beautiful about all... Like the world. We're different. So it was not some like... And then I can... And then... It was just like... Okay. Like... Yeah. No, I love that. And I think it's just like so true that it's just like...

[00:31:49] Different... Yeah. Different things will work for different people. Right? Like there's some people that like... Like that just feels so right of like... Why does... Why do I need to announce this? I'm just gonna live my life. I'm just gonna introduce... You know, I'm just gonna have my partners whoever they are. And we can, you know, deal with that. For... And then there's like people like me that I was like... Wait, this is the biggest news of my life. And I need to actually talk about it like it's a huge deal. You know what I mean? And that's just like... Right. Different... Yeah. Just different reactions to it. Absolutely. But I always...

[00:32:18] That stuck with me because it was like... And I just thought it was so like just badass. Like it was just like... Here's my girlfriend. Here... And we didn't... Like it was like, wow. Like this person makes you happy. That's it. Yeah. That's how it should be like the acceptance why. Like it's like... Great. You're happy. That's powerful. And it's interesting because I wonder... Was there... Kind of on the flip side of what you're talking about. Like sometimes people... Like they look at you and they're like...

[00:32:48] Oh, you're queer. I'm gonna make that... I'm gonna assume that's a bigger part of your story and who you are. And like put you into certain boxes. Did you feel like there were any points when people were like... Oh, Carolyn's our queer... Like our pan friend. Or did anything like that come up? And I wonder if that came up for you like either before reality TV or even like going into the world of reality TV. No. And I did talk about it on Survivor, but it didn't make like the edit. Yeah.

[00:33:18] That's part of why our podcast exists. It's like, oh, you're queer and it didn't make the edit? Oh, okay. Oh, you're queer. Carol, can I just say though, you're one of the few where like a lot of other... I'm like, oh, so surprising that you didn't... Like a person... Somebody else didn't get the queer part of their story. And for you, I'm like, yeah, you have... There's a lot of Carolyn's story to tell. And so I think like, you know... Yeah. I'm like a little... Oh, the weirdness got cut? But also it's a shame that...

[00:33:43] But also I would say with like a very large percentage of the people to whom that happens are like classically beautiful women. And so... Yeah. It's very true. Checks out. When it's like, why is that? And then obviously the ones that like, it's like, yep, you're dead. Like, okay, you can't really hide that. So you like, we're going to talk about it. I mean, personally... Why do you think... Yeah. Oh, yeah. Go ahead, Abby. Yeah. No, I think it's because they want enough women to be sexual objects of men viewers. Like I do.

[00:34:12] No, totally. Yeah. So it's like if we reveal too many of them are gay, then it will be bad. Which I felt like in the new era, like no offense, I thought that like we did away with that. I know. I know. I really... Okay. Carolyn, what about this? Right now, everyone's hating on the new era. People are bored. In five years, people are going to be like, I miss Woke Survivor. Like, I miss Woke Survivor. I'll say that right now.

[00:34:39] Well, it's just like, I don't know about an unpopular opinion. But I get... Well, all mine are. But like, I like hearing the stories. I do. Totally. I do. I like hearing about like, like backstory when it's natural. And I remember even being out there and being like, oh, I don't want to do this in my confessional. I want it.

[00:35:04] And there was other times that I had like just talked about like things like, but I always wanted it to be like, I'm going to do this at camp. I want it to be because I hated that. Like, and obviously people can't help it. Like, they're pulling crap out of you at certain times. But it's like, I don't want to be one of those people who's like... And then A, B, and C. I wanted it to be natural. And it's so... I mean, this is a produced show. So what do we expect? Yeah. And was it something that you were... Yes, you said you were talking about it with camp.

[00:35:34] Was it something that you were connecting with some of the other queer people on the cast? Like Jam Jam and Josh and... Franny. Franny. Yeah. All of me and Jam Jam's conversations, they happened like we were whispering. We didn't watch anyone. We talked about some really like crazy shit. Mm. Yeah. Okay. Can you tell us one? Yeah, please. One whispered secret? Oh my God. Just talk like... I love that you started whispering.

[00:36:03] You don't need to read it. Don't worry, Carolyn. It's just stuff. Just like talking shit. I mean, just really like talking shit. Like mainly like what the hell are we talking about ourselves and not feeling like we can fit into like... Yeah. Where it was like... And then just a lot of my personal like home life I was going through. I was like... I was going through hell at home like with my relationship. And I remember I was like...

[00:36:31] I told him this like day like two when I was like crying. And they didn't have the cameras because at night there's only like the one. And I was crying and I was like, I don't want to talk about this person. I don't. I was like... I didn't like don't like them. I'm like in a really bad place right now. I don't want to like... Because I was like even right before I got out there. I was going through some stuff with... And relationship wise. And so I opened up to him about everything. And then we just talked about like being those weirdos.

[00:37:01] And... Because it sucks. It just... Like I was so proud of myself. And I felt like... I knew like... And this sounds bad. But like... I kind of expected to be the first boot. I really did. And not that like... I'm just gonna... Oh, take me away. But I kind of expected to just... People are gonna think I'm crazy. People are gonna... I've gotten that my whole life.

[00:37:29] But I had some hope. Because I was like... I've done so much work on it myself. I'm so proud of like who I am. And to get those side eyes. And to get... And it's not everybody. It's not... It wasn't everyone. But just to get like those like... I've gotten that all the time. I got it on traders. I get it in my everyday life. Like anybody who tells me that maybe I should change. Doesn't know what it feels like. To be around people... That don't accept you for you.

[00:37:59] That's way more lonely. And way more miserable. So you know what? I am kind of a freak. I am weird. I am different. Whatever. And I'm gonna own it. And I would rather... As painful as it can be sometimes. I would rather have the side eyes. And I would rather have the eye rolls. I'm not gonna change. Like I am so... I'm not changing. I'm not. Like because I know the alternative. I know the alternative. But it doesn't mean that it still doesn't hurt. That's the like...

[00:38:28] It hurts my feelings sometimes. I'm not gonna lie. It's like screw you people. Like oh. So I felt like... Honestly there was just... Again not everyone. But I felt like... Again those... We all have been there. Where people look at you like just... Or when you say something and it's like... And I felt... I felt... Which I felt like... Isn't that old school Survivor? Where you have to be strong. And you have to be a challenge piece. Like I felt so just this big.

[00:38:58] Because I was not good at any of the things. And on Survivor I feel like... Depending on the season, the tribe, whatever. It's like... Wow you did so well in that challenge. How did you... We talk about that for like... Because we don't got anything else to talk about. So it's like... How did you do that? Wow you're so strong. And it was like... You think I can be like... No I was the first one out. Or I was... So it felt... But it was almost like I just... Felt this big.

[00:39:28] Like I didn't contribute. Like I didn't... And it sucked. Like oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Like one thing that jumps out to me though. About maybe... Back to what you're saying. About why... Like season 44 is lower for people. Is because we did get a story... Through your lens Carolyn. Like literally from the first second... Of the season. And we're getting like... The bros talking. And you're like... What the hell is this? Like I'm right here. What are you doing? And then you...

[00:39:57] Obviously don't win in the end. Which sucks for all of us. Because we're like... Carolyn should have won. What are we doing? And so maybe... That's like... That's like how I'm... Oh well... No comment. Jim who? He already had his episode. Yeah. He had his episode. Just kidding. Jim. Just kidding. You do love Jim. Love you. Wait. Please. Just to clarify. I think the point... Which is because... I feel like the way you made your point. Is that all the... All the like anti-woke bros...

[00:40:26] Are now the ones complaining about season 44. Is that what you're saying? That's it. That's exactly it. Yeah. Because they don't like it. Well and... Super cool Carolyn tells her story. Is that the point? No. They don't like the Carolyn loss. Or we don't like the Carolyn loss. So the anti-woke bros... Who don't like Carolyn... Are hating the season. And the ones who are rooting for Carolyn... Are also hating the season. And it just adds up. Yeah. Okay. I just mean this... Thank you guys. I'm just getting out here and say... I don't even think it's true that people hate Survivor 40. No. Anyone...

[00:40:55] Any rating that is saying that is like... People need to go back and watch it. I agree. It was super beloved for a reason. And I think like... Carolyn like a huge huge part of that reason was you. Is you. Yeah. And you and Carson and Jam Jam together. Like I think... Maybe when people are thinking back on it. And you know like... Oh the Tika 3 goes all the way. And then it's like... Some amount of like... Oh they were just... This awesome alliance that went the whole way. But actually watching it in real time.

[00:41:23] It was the story of... Yeah. The weirdos. The people getting the eye rolls. Winning the game. And being the strongest alliance. And that... I feel like was so beautiful to watch as a viewer. And I know that people are really connected to it at the time. For sure. That's what I thought. And so I was... Yeah. Again I was... Same with like... I was shocked when they did like Winners 450. And I'm like why the hell was Marianne not there? And I'm just saying like... Yeah. I feel like if you're gonna do Winners...

[00:41:52] Marianne I feel like is literally the face of the new era when it comes to Winners. Like I do. I believe that. Like I feel like she was the first... Like holy shit. Like I remember watching... Win... Like then I flew out to Fiji. But I watched her win. And then flew up there. And it was like... Oh my gosh. Like there's hope for like... You know what I'm saying? Like somebody... Because early on remember everyone's like... She's annoying. And she talks to me. And it was like... She says in the first episode I think...

[00:42:22] I'm here to play for the weirdos. Something like that. Yes. Like hell yeah. I like... Yeah. Love that. I'm thinking like... What? And she's not on 50 anyway. Like but I'll shut up about that. I just... No I mean... Yeah. Please not. Oh I was just gonna say like... I mean what's clear is that like there's so many other great opportunities. Wherever you are Carolyn is where I'd want to be. So you know Mary... Like we'll see Marianne when it's time to see Marianne. We'll see you when it's time to see you.

[00:42:52] Right. And this is the kind of thing like when Jeff does these interviews and is like... I want it to be a kid-friendly show. And so we need to like change XYZ whatever. Like you making it to the end. You and Jam Jam making it to the end of the game. Marianne winning the game. Like that is what makes it a show that's good for kids to me. Yeah. It's like having this narrative of like be your freaking self. Like there's a reason why you're like one of the number one stars of the new era. And it's because you are so yourself. It's true.

[00:43:21] You can make that face all you want. It is. It is. We know it's true. Why does everyone hate me in real life then? Or not hate me? I feel like you... I mean I'll say I feel like anytime you're anywhere everyone is trying to kiss your butt. Yeah. But they're just like they're kind of faking it a little bit. Like and everyone's with me at... Yeah. And that was truly the highlight of my like meeting you. Truly. It was so fun Carolyn. I fell in love with you. I did just check your Instagram. You're still in a relationship.

[00:43:52] Still am. Yeah. No disrespect to like... You know I'll keep you updated. You know? It was like I did track on like yep. So I don't want to like be like yeah I fell in love with Abby. But I'm saying it anyway. You can take a little bit of Abby. Quakes love it. Quakes love it. 100%. Yeah. I was like... I couldn't believe... I was like... Evie was my highlight of that. Like made everything worth it. Like because it was a lot of craziness. And it was a lot. Like you know I get really stressed at that stuff.

[00:44:21] And I think that. And you were just like so chill. And so I just wanted Abby by me all the time. And was like screw everyone else. Yeah. And it... I think a lot of people like assume that like I love attention and I love... And I don't. And I'm very much like I'm loud and annoying sometimes. But I'm not like... Even the way certain people... Remember my butt was showing? What was going on? Were you there when my butt... Which time? No. At the signing.

[00:44:51] Remember that? Oh yeah. When my ass kept... Was it doing the Marilyn Monroe like... Yeah. The air was like the... And so okay. I had people like... And I won't name names. But like we're just... Your dresses. Your dress. I don't care. I have underwear on. There's not like... I'm not... And again that might sound like... I'm not trying to have my butt show. But also it was like... Carolyn you got to be over here. Carolyn there's people who want to...

[00:45:21] And I started crying. And I went out to the parking lot. And I felt so over stimulated. And so overwhelmed. And I remember even too... I got there a little bit late. Not terribly late. But I didn't get any sleep. And oh we figured you'd want to be front and center. No! Put me to the back! I don't want like... It's like people assume... That I want all of this attention. And that I'm... I don't. I run from it. I get like...

[00:45:50] I feel almost like when people will tell me like... And again I appreciate like... Especially the weirdos and the people who can relate. I love that. That's why I did that. Because I didn't ever feel like there's people that I was like... Wow that's like me. However... I'd say I am a regular person. And like... I just like... I feel like that's too much power. Like I can't... You know what I'm saying? Okay. Do you also feel like...

[00:46:17] Especially because you are so like honest and... You know so authentic with yourself. That people then really like put a lot on you. In those conversations. Like they kind of like... Want to share their deepest darkest thing. And that's kind of a lot to receive from so many people at a time. Am I talking too much to it? No! No you're talking... Yeah you're great. That's why I stop like... I'll open my DMs once in a while. Okay? And I get...

[00:46:45] And that's why I just started like doing the life coaching stuff. Which I'm on a break from. Yeah. And... I have too big of a heart. And the stuff that people... I try to explain this to people. The stuff that people reach out to me for. It's not just like good move out there. Or good... And so it's some heavy deep shit. And I have a heart. My cameo is when someone reaches out to me. They're talking about addiction. Or they're talking about their struggle. I go for 20 minutes. I care.

[00:47:14] I put my heart into this shit. I just had somebody... And this is... I go this is why I don't open DMs. Someone was like... Would you be a judge in our... It was for an org. You guys know what orgs are? Right. Yeah. Online reality games. An orgy? An orgy. I wish. I would have been there. The judge? No. I could judge an orgy. No. Flags. Just freaking flags. So like... Okay. Like what is flags? I don't know what flags is.

[00:47:44] I think it's a homophobic slogan. No. No. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. How does it get judged out? Thank you. Thank you. I'm just kidding. No. That would have been a lot more fun. So... What is this? I read this message. And I'm like... Would you be a judge for... And I can't say no to orgs because... That's where I'm coming from. And so I... You say yes to one. You're going to get a million. Yeah. Yeah. And so I do.

[00:48:13] And then I saw this one. And I was like... This is literally what I don't. And pretty soon I'm judging the contest. And I'm making videos. And I'm... And so I'm like... Oh my gosh. What? This is literally why I don't do this. But again, when I see like org pop up, it's almost like I have an alert. And I want to help everyone who has an org because that's like... I get it and blah, blah, blah. But that's like a... That took me like... Oh my God. That took forever. And so it's like... I can't say no when...

[00:48:43] And again, it's like people will reach out with such... Like that's a fun example. But like... Yeah. It's very time consuming, all of this stuff. And I mean, I did a lot for this. And the heavy stuff, it drains me. And it's not that I don't care. That's why I started the Life Coach stuff. Like I care too much. And I've learned in my life, in my relationships, like... I have been... What do you call it? Like I'm an empath. I care too much.

[00:49:13] I've been that person who's like... You know... Who puts their needs last or second or whatever. Just seeing the... Always seeing the good in other... I don't do that anymore. I don't. I very much... I'm still an empath. But like... I need to take care of me. Or I am just going to be completely miserable. And so I don't want to say I have boundaries because they're terrible.

[00:49:41] But I very much so am okay with like saying no. Like because I have to or I'll go nuts. Yeah. I care too much. It's true. Like I care too much. Well, I was going to say to me... Like because I know I've heard you on Kicking and Screaming and otherwise talking about how like you've only been to so many events. Like there was the one RHAP event in Brea. There have been another... A number of events here and there. And then you also mentioned not looking at your DM.

[00:50:08] So it sounds to me like you're like a software queen. Aware of what it is that you could handle. But I can still imagine that being tough. You know, to still try to say no. I can't like... It's very hard. Like even... Again, some people like really can thrive. I feel like Jam Jam is a good example of like somebody who like... Like... I am not like that. I very much can... Like I get very overwhelmed. I'm running away.

[00:50:38] And then it's like... I had one. It was Brea. Yeah. I went to the bar afterwards. I had a line of people and I'm like therapying. And these people like crying. You were in the lobster suit. And I was like being a therapist. Like I was clearly... I was like... I had the like people crying. And what am I going to be... And truly again because I care. And that's how I connect with people. And so it's like... Like tell me your trauma and all that.

[00:51:07] But does it get exalted? Like that was a line of trauma. Yeah. It makes so much sense to me. I mean it's like... Ugh. It's so hard because like we're in this place. I feel like we're so many people. Don't have anyone to talk to. Yeah. You know about these things. And don't have access to therapy. Don't have a good community around them. And I think that is one of like the beautiful things that we're able to do with reality TV. Is provide examples and provide...

[00:51:34] You know help support people to like have community and through Survivor and through RHP and things like that. But at the end of the day like reality show contestants are just one person that are you know people that are on a show. And we're not trained therapists like doing therapy and things like that. And it can be so... It makes so much sense that people see you. They feel connected to you. You know? And I think... And yet you can't be... You can't be that for everybody. You know?

[00:52:04] I can. It's something cool about having you know these bigger spaces where we can have these conversations where it's still of course like obviously boundaried. We're just the ones talking here. But like we can maybe have these conversations in public in a way that allows us to not like... Yeah. Suck all of our life force away. But like still be able to like provide a space for people. But it is really a challenge. Like so many people need help. And it makes so much sense that people are really drawn to seek that from you.

[00:52:34] And I love that. Like that's why I did... Like truly it's like that's why I share so much and share like my struggles and share just like all of like... Just anything like bad or like bad that I'm going through or just bad experiences or traumas or... Because it's like I just... I don't want anybody to feel like I don't have my shit together. I am a mess.

[00:53:04] I do struggle. I still go to therapy if I need to. I still like... I very much I cry. I just had this experience on this bed rot which I said I wasn't going to talk about. Which I very much was an emotional... Like and I don't want to say mess. But because... But it always takes me a minute to like... I very much will like react emotionally. And then it like... It takes me a minute to just calm down. And be like... And be like...

[00:53:34] Okay wow that hurt my feelings. And then be able to like make a coherent like sentence. But stuff hurts. Like we're human. And that's like with any game that you play. Whether you're rotten in a bed or rotten on an island. And it's very much like a human experience. And it's so funny like... I'm thinking about like... When I watch... When I was watching 15. And people were... I got so annoyed of like... Like I think a lot of people did about like the honor and integrity. Yes.

[00:54:04] Yeah. And I'm like... Why are they taking so... So this is a game. So can y'all help me? Like why do I then... I was thinking about this. Because I'm like... It's just a game. Why do I not look at it as just a game when people do and say certain things then? You know what I think personally? Like and you tell me if this feels true. I think what it to me is so frustrating about the honor and integrity. Like narrative is that it's so freaking fake.

[00:54:32] Like it's from people lying. I mean Joe literally like... No offense Joe. Like this is not coming for Joe. But just a clear example where he's... Block. Always talking about honor. Yeah. Block away. Top of the show I said. I love that block button. Feel free. But like you know... If you're saying always honor and integrity. And then you're voting out all your allies. Or your coach who every season comes on here and says he's like such a good person. And then does shady shit. Like that is what's so hard to watch.

[00:55:02] About like honor and integrity. Versus if I feel like you go out there and try to be real yourself. And you're actually like reacting to stuff as a real human emotion of things happening. But there's some stuff that like... There's a difference. I guess what I mean is there's a difference between saying nothing matters because it's all a game. Like it still matters what people do. But not like oh you voted for me. You know what I mean?

[00:55:28] Like that's different than you looked at me with a side eye and made me feel small as a person or like a freak. You know what I mean? That's not game. In my opinion. That's not being like... You're not like playing a game or there's like... Because yeah something happens on this where it's like you didn't need to do that. And it hurt.

[00:55:48] Because I can understand and I can like make sense of things that like oh okay this needs to happen in the game or like strategy wise like yep that makes sense. But then there's just some stuff where it's like you can't help it. Like even when I was on Traders when what's his name called me batshit crazy. It hurt. I started crying immediately. Yeah.

[00:56:15] Like and I remember thinking like god like I literally am wearing a dress right now. I thought people would think I was normal. But it don't matter what you wear, what you look like truly. Like my personality isn't hiding. And so I'm going to be called crazy. And it is what it is. But it's... How can you look at that type of stuff and be like well that's just the game. Don't take it personally.

[00:56:41] When you're playing as yourself and with your real feelings. So yeah I don't know. People always say I'm not meant for these. And we'll... Well no I mean I feel like the difference is when I think of you Carolyn. Like one of the words that comes to mind is vulnerability. When I think of them I think of... I mean I don't see that. I feel like it's more manipulative or whatever word you want to use. We're not here to talk about them but like... Manipulative or DeLulu you know.

[00:57:11] Whatever it might be. But it's... Yeah I think it's... It feels different even if we can't figure out what the difference is exactly. But I think... Is it because we don't like like the bro type? Is that what it is? I mean I... For sure. Like I also think there's that thing. And you tell me like I feel like... For me. I mean it's not untrue you know. Yeah I mean it's not untrue but... In somebody's case. Somebody just said this to me. Like they were like...

[00:57:41] You claim to like... Because this just happened again too on something else. And like you're supposed to be a life coach and you're a drug counselor and you're blah blah blah. And you are here judging people. And I'm like... Yes! I'm judging people with big muscles! And I can't help it. Like yeah maybe I could if I did some work on it. But I don't connect with those people. And like historically those are the people that like have not been nice to me. Or who have messed with me.

[00:58:11] Or I have bad experiences with. So no. I'm not rooting for some like bro. It's just not... And so is that judgmental of me? And it reminds me of like all the Republicans who tell me like... Yeah. You're supposed to be so accepting and you liberals claim to be so accepting. Yeah I'm not accepting of hate. Right. Yeah. So you get what like... Yes. So is that like hypocritical of me? Because I'm like... No. I mean I think... It's human.

[00:58:39] There's like a world in which we can have the platonic ideal where everybody can you know be their full self and hopefully that make them a good person and like... And etc. And the reality is we live in a world run by heteropatriarchy. And patriarchy is bad for everybody. Especially men. Who... I mean not as I especially men. Including men. Oh yeah. Let's say. Including men. And including men who I feel like over the course of their lives

[00:59:09] receive so much terrible messaging and things like that. And I think it's okay to you know not say like oh I could never you know like anyone who has muscles but like that on average people seeped in gym bro culture have treated me XYZ way I think is like I don't see a problem with that. And I feel like there's like... There's also reality when you're a woman, when you're a queer person, when you're a person

[00:59:36] of color, there's some measure of I need to be safe in the world and sometimes you have to navigate situations by assuming who might be the best ally to go to in a particular situation. We wish it wasn't that way. You know I'll speak for myself. I wish it wasn't that way. Yeah. But like... Yeah. Yeah. And just to like add to that too. Like healthy masculinity is being able to handle that and to be able to be like oh that's not about me or I could be like something that's not that dominant story masculinity.

[01:00:05] So this is the podcast Carolyn. We go all over the place. Yeah. Earlier you were saying like I hate men and it's like you know a person who has like positive masculinity would recognize that like you know not every man and also like you know men can be dangerous to women you know like as you know there are structures in place. So yeah. You know and my tolerance doesn't have to include people who are intolerant of me you know. So because of who I am. So you know I wouldn't judge yourself too hardly. Yeah.

[01:00:33] And you know Carolyn that my survivor bio my pet my pet was men. So. Yeah. No. I remember that. Loved it. Loved it. So we're aligned. You know. Did you. One thing I. Between your survivor experience and then the traitors experience. I do feel like what is so interesting to me about the traitors experience is that the traitors gives up like I think what a lot of people have gravitated towards and a lot of queer fans is this like there is such a campiness and a queerness to that show.

[01:01:02] I mean Alan hosting it and who they have you know. And yet I feel like what you're bringing up is like this like that that might not have run quite as deep as maybe we want to think that it does on a show like the traitors. Is that is that sort of how you feel like. And I don't want to be like like I got along with people and whatever but and also it's kind of like is this just what I should expect that because I'm because again it's like I

[01:01:29] am like running around at like I remember there's like only a they're only allowed like I think it's like five people in a room at a time. And so. They have. I'm so exact. You have to like just for camera purposes. It makes it hard to like. Yeah. And so and again I'm not even thinking twice but I'm like over like I I'm so exaggerated. I'm so animated.

[01:01:55] And it's like yes I can understand how people might look at me like what the hell is she on? And I'm like galloping like a horse. So it's like I get it. And also it's like some personalities like click and some don't. And obviously like not everyone's going to like me. And again like which is it's like OK. But I feel like so especially with traders I think I'll just say it.

[01:02:24] I feel like people are so concerned about like airtime making like a good like saying a good sound bite or and I'm not like I truly don't think before I speak and like I couldn't take it at times because it was like we had so much time where it's like the stop start stop start stopping meaning like no talking about the game. Yeah. Don't.

[01:02:51] And now we have to go and record and go into reality. And it was like reality would start and it would be like. They called it reality. Reality. When you're on camera. Hello fellow players. Like this is reality. Go into. Now we're going into reality. So it would be like. No funny. Oh no. And I'm like what. Who is this person. Right. Like are you just doing this for the bit where my brain doesn't understand that where it's

[01:03:19] like I don't because I don't do that but I also try to prepare myself that there's going to be a lot of people on here who are doing that and wanting like the like look at me. It's just very it's a strange it's very different environment. That's a lie. Do you think you would have. Do you think you would have. The fact that you were a traitor. Yeah. Contributed to some of that alienation feeling or do you think that would have been there anyway. I.

[01:03:45] Oh it would have been there anyway because it's like that when everywhere I go but. Totally. Totally. Fair enough. Which again I don't. Except for here. Except for here. I don't and that's the thing like because people will be like how are you able to just like be yourself and blah blah blah and like because I've done it the other way it's not worth it I would rather and I've had many times that I'm lonely or that I feel like wow I

[01:04:14] have no one or like I get rejected or but again it's like I play that tape in my head where it's like what am I gonna freaking do change something about myself to make somebody like like me or like like um because even this situation on uh bedrout it was like what like I'm not gonna like dim my sunshine and I cry a lot and I am and we're not for everybody and

[01:04:42] it's like it's oh like that's okay but don't you like I'm not gonna change who I am because like you think I'm annoying or no and like I have so much like yes you have to be okay with like sitting in the lonely being okay alone being okay being rejected and eventually it's like the right people they find like you find each other because if you same with like I think about

[01:05:07] dating and it's like I scare a lot of people and the way I look at it in a great way the way I look at it though is like like that like I would much rather like just be my full self and connect with you and wow okay this is great and you can't always trust that the other person is being themselves however it's like wow shouldn't it just be a whole lot easier if like people could just come

[01:05:35] as they are and like acceptance and but again we have that need to like be wanted and we don't want to be and I have I think like mastered mastered the art of like just being okay being alone and being okay like being rejected does it hurt sometimes sure but again I always go back to that feeling of Carolyn remember what it felt like to be around people where you aren't wanted or where you

[01:06:04] don't you don't fit in but you have to change yourself and think of how exhausting that is and how many meds you probably should have been on when you were doing that I have so many I feel like there's a thing I was thinking about in terms of um first of all I feel like I feel like you're also judging yourself maybe you know I feel like you're talking about the strategy you've had but you're all you've you also have been put into a variety of situations like the situation you're talking about whether it's you know survivor uh the traitors you know being at live events the bed rotting jobs

[01:06:34] you're being put in situations where like you have no choice but to interact with these people who yeah feel like you're butting up against so I want to want to give you a little bit of like grace for that as well but also like I do think like in real life when when we find ourselves uh you know in these situations where people feel like we're too much or we're so it's like I feel like sometimes they're like you know and especially in a in a reality show or a game people are looking for

[01:06:59] ways to like you know other people for the purposes of a of a game I feel like in real life where that happens is like I think that like this idea that people feel like there are rules to society that people are thinking and it's like there is some like homophobia transphobia like stuff to all of this in terms of like when somebody sees someone like you carolyn who is like so authentically being themselves we were like you know there's a little bit of like oh that threatens me that that you are like saying you could be like this in a way that I think people need to take some like introspection

[01:07:27] to themselves I think yeah wow that's oh totally so yeah I agree that's like the deep version I agree yeah a hundred percent it's so funny because I have like the flip side comment which is that something that I'm taking away from everything you're saying carolyn is how even when it's not like actually about sexuality on survivor on traders like when we hear from you there's this message

[01:07:51] that also feels a very queer of like coming as you are being yourself like not being accepted but still like unapologetically being yourself and that's kind of I know I'm sure you've heard before but it's kind of iconic carolyn like you're you know you have to be okay with not being like loved by everybody

[01:08:13] or or like you have to be okay with being lonely if with with um just it's just so much more freeing and so I just I've done like I've been very like very many versions of me and I like this one the best it's just it's it's like the way it's lifted off um oh it's so much easier I guess like then to to go

[01:08:42] out be something different and then or like the chameleon type people and I always tell people like this right here like this is me in front of you know my parents or in front in front of like I'm the same person truly like I don't have like a hi how are you it's like this is me and again just being okay with like we're not for everybody and it's just it's scary I think because again yes

[01:09:10] with all the labels with this the way that um society is it's like we should be this certain way it's like screw that um there's so much freedom and just being yourself and but again be okay with like not everyone liking you or a lot of people not liking you or whatever I have to oh go for it please Abby go for it it feels like you're saying you're trading like

[01:09:36] other people not liking you for you liking yourself yeah oh whoa yeah thanks for putting words in me yeah like that's true like yes I can't even imagine wow just talking to people too like the older we get it's like I cannot imagine being like whatever age and you're still and I guess I that's such a misconception but I used to think that like with age meant like you are no longer an asshole or with

[01:10:05] age like you learn more about yourself not really you can literally be like 50 and still be this people pleasing um you don't like wow you get one life you know like but some people are like and it's like you can age and not ever like self-reflect or you can age and never um like make changes or be that person

[01:10:28] who's still kissing bud and people pleasing it's like you don't I can't imagine so anyway but no this is there's so many people I know that you have conversations with Carolyn whether that's at events or otherwise or in DMs but like I'm curious as you talk about all this like is there a piece of advice you find yourself giving to people like on how to get comfortable being by themselves or how to

[01:10:55] like own who they are like the press what do they call that I feel like this is like something now where people go out and like go get rejected therapy um what's that I think I think it is rejection therapy I believe yes like in being okay like accepting it but again like what what always comes back to me is the loneliness that I felt when I was in when I'm in a room full of people that don't love me

[01:11:23] accept me for who I am it's like that is danger danger danger so I just remind myself of that and I again knowing what it feels like to be like loved and accepted for me it's like wow that's what we aim for all the time so it's sitting in in those uncomfortable moments of rejection of like what's wrong with you of and just being like okay that's okay because I don't want the other and the

[01:11:50] alternative is being around people and having to change who I am that is like that can last for a couple out like I can't do it like my soul won't let me do that anymore so it's just putting yourself out there I this didn't happen overnight but I got to a place where it was like I couldn't even fathom like changing anymore or being a chameleon or doing like I can't do it I like my body

[01:12:17] rejects it but that comes with practice and that comes with being in a place where it feels so effing lonely to be the other and the alternative the alternative is way freaking scarier for me now but it takes practice it takes like I'm gonna be okay being alone I'm gonna be because I truly with all of the experiences I've had it's like I sit in the pain and I deal with it and I process it and I

[01:12:44] learn from it and I don't just like distract myself with all the unhealthy shit I used to do so it's it's just it's being okay being alone being okay like and telling myself nothing is wrong with me because I get rejected or people think I'm nuts or it doesn't mean that I need to go out and change because I'm never gonna satisfy everybody so I might change like okay I'm gonna talk like

[01:13:10] this because I literally did used to try to change my voice you think that helped right no or like the tears or why do you cry so much or why do you because I held it in for too long so it's like all this is like of years of like hating myself I'm not gonna go and try to love myself um or change myself for you anymore I am proud of myself and again if it's just me and my dog we're like that's

[01:13:39] why Carolyn that's so beautiful I have to wave my my pride flag here waving my flag but like all because it is pride month where the pride is spoken like and everything you're saying I think also speaks to the experience of a lot of people and then pride month comes around and I think for for many of us it can be this moment where we are more seen or more accepted whether it's

[01:14:05] yes and then you're alone inside or whether that's at parades and everything else like what is pride like pride month like for you pride month is putting as many flags as I can um outside but actually I do that year round um and I shouldn't you know people will be like don't um or even like with the stuff that I've been posting especially like all my ice stuff or all not yeah that was all amazing if you haven't seen some of Carolyn's content from Minneapolis that was amazing

[01:14:34] like how are you not like and then I'm like we see like by now what what are all these Republicans doing following me I was shocked I was like by this point what the hell or even like I read a comment recently where someone was saying like um so like or why do you feel the need to talk oh god and I'm done like educating and like and I just like I would post the word because it was I couldn't sleep

[01:15:02] during like the it was the only time I felt like any sort of peace is when I was out and protesting or at Whipple or doing something and being actively involved in helping in some way and it's just the whole thing like with pride it's like what is wrong with me and I already went like I've googled it I've researched it some people like the beliefs are very hard to change and yada yada and so people will be like well why do you even post about because it's important for people to know and have a safe place

[01:15:31] and know that it is safe here and know that like you aren't alone it's just like with being an addict or being um coming from an abusive relationship anything like anything you go through and you share you form that connection with other people who may feel like they're alone so you know what yes I will be loud about it yes I will talk about it like what the hell at like and again it's I can't

[01:15:56] even wrap my brain around why people give a shit why do you get like why why do you care what other people are doing or who they're loving who they're I'll never understand it I just won't and I've tried to and I don't need to at this point but no I'm not trying to change the effing minds of everyone who you're just pissing people off or no I'm creating a safe space I am not gonna be quiet like I can't

[01:16:24] imagine not saying anything about this um I said okay sorry y'all shut up but like yes it's supporting um there's so many activities especially here in Minneapolis like during like there's rollers I think it's either they're doing it twice but it's like a roller skating night no all that shit it's like go be a part of it I love it yeah you're back to on the one being a lot I think you're talking about like

[01:16:50] maybe romance but like there's a ton of places out there you know that like groups communities things that people can go and find it there's so much cool stuff out there there's so much waiting for you yeah roller skating there's like and that's the thing too I like because people um I'll go to stuff alone I don't give a shit like I well like for everybody out there who's like maybe a little nervous or think I go to plenty of things alone I also go to stuff well I there's a some red and the people are like so nervous I did not realize it was such there was such a stigma about

[01:17:19] I go to the movies alone I go to restaurants alone like go do stuff by yourself it's like like I mean not if you don't want to but also like you can do it nobody's judging you nobody's looking at you yeah and especially pride events like so many people go along to meet other people you know like I think I think there's such a thing that like especially if you're newer to the community that like you look at everyone and think everybody already has it all figured out everybody already has their

[01:17:44] friends and it's so not true so many people none of us these things to find you none of us haven't figured out no one so I always encourage people like go to this so pride it like get your ass out there and don't feel like uh you know I don't have anyone to go with or I usually don't either I do a lot of crap alone and I'm okay with it I'm not waiting around for so because that's the thing like I'm not gonna wait around I'm gonna go I see this I'm gonna go to it there's probably something so

[01:18:11] catered to your own personal if you're listening to this and like if you're into board games there's probably a board game queer thing there's probably there's roller skating there's like probably something so niche to your address and if you're going alone to it and you're nervous just think I'm not going alone I'm going with Carolyn and Matt and Grace who told me it's okay and me and me sorry I'm there too and he actually is busy I think he was busy that day

[01:18:36] no I had something else to do no no I'm there too all right get out there be a part of it be a part of it because when you're with other people it just it just helps and there's the acceptance piece and feeling safe and like I love it like can I can I say one thing I also I'm a person who is very much I'm alone a lot I'm I live alone I you know that's like that when my life is I really actually I do love it I just go to the movies I do a step alone I'm such an extrovert and

[01:19:05] also I just want to be by myself with my dog Carolyn as well you know like that's my life I also do there are times where like you know is it a hundred percent but like not all you know it wasn't always that way so the other thing I would say is like as I was listening to you I was like I I do wish I had more people in my life who would like you know send me shoot me a message or do you know like the the like thing to like if you know somebody who I think is like can be a person who is one of

[01:19:31] these people who like yeah I'm like I've learned how to be happy alone and I'm very happy to be alone but also like you know I could see the benefit of like you know reaching out to your friend to let them know you love them you know especially yes you know yeah a hundred percent like like I'm not letting like okay if I have no one to go with I'm still gonna go it's not gonna stop me but like we have feelings too yeah yeah yeah another thing on this topic just a thing I was thinking of is

[01:19:59] like sometimes sometimes that the thing to do to actually feel less alone is to like actually proactively help other people and like have like you have that role even if you don't have it all figured out yourself right so like volunteering at any sort of um queer organization anything like for your local pride thing they probably need volunteers to do stuff like give out water yeah like that sometimes it's nice to have a role oh 100 i completely agree with that i love that this

[01:20:27] look carolyn we could have you here forever we could i mean look one question we do love to ask anything you want to say to your queer fans who are listening i'm sure they're tuning in um they're single oh yes i think it's the first time we've ever had that which is quite amazing i think that is yes people will say this to me like it's just again i've never been like i don't read my dms

[01:20:53] enough like to because i get overwhelmed and i'm just one of like i i can't stop and then i'm pretty soon it's like great anyway but um people will be like have you met any like i ain't meeting shit no one and i feel like no one really i like unless i'm missing it i don't ever get hit on i don't and maybe because i don't like well no i've kind of um started this thing where like as i

[01:21:20] get so overwhelmed what what we all leaned in i'll wear sunglasses and i'll have my headphones on because i get so like again sometimes i just want to go in and out of places like anyways i don't like people just don't approach me like that ever it's mainly like carolyn and i love you from this but like i'm not getting hit on ever i was like i asked someone

[01:21:47] recently i'm like why don't i ever get hit on hey i don't know i'm gonna i don't wanna speak but that gem gem i think he's been flirting for a little while oh yeah no i think really yeah i think that's what's been happening so i chemistry between the two of you is off the turn i tried he is my safe place when i like truly and if we could have that shit might have gone down on whatever freaking season that was that like that psychopath was on who was touching people

[01:22:16] um like i because when the cameras weren't around i was like hold me like a baby but then we needed like because it's cold and whatever but like i jump on him i like i love him i do like he's my safe space um but he's married out there and you want to respectfully hit on carolyn yeah it's it's open open for business it sounds like the open season as we've

[01:22:42] learned the open era the open era sorry i stepped on my but don't come expecting carolyn to be someone who she's not that's right and i'm like i got too much to say like the you know respect carolyn's boundaries that she's trying to i'm gonna let y'all know if any i don't anyone is like i just don't like i don't get as next year pride has spoken we're talking about carolyn's love story with the

[01:23:07] oh yeah we could do a dating show and everything we'll work on it carolyn we have a year please do he's like is this weird right now kind of no no not for us anybody's ever seen there's a version of the bachelor uh or the game changer the show game on drop out oh i love it they did a bisexual bachelorette and it's my favorite thing ever and yeah right i might just have to do that for

[01:23:30] for carolyn please do yeah please so no thank you sorry jerry oh shout to jerry by the way um this is awesome carolyn you again we'd love to have you here for any like closing words for anything else you just want to say we could say like we're here for anything and i'm like i gotta be okay um just like be kind to yourself pay attention to the words that you say to yourself

[01:23:55] um i think that we can say just like just so many things that can like start our day where we just go downhill or we start our day and it's like just be kind pay attention to the things that you say to yourself when you wake up when you look in the mirror when you all of that is so important because i always say like we did not we weren't born hating ourselves we weren't born with these bad thoughts in

[01:24:21] our head or that we're effed up or we're different or we're weirdos or and truly it wasn't until like people started pointing out everything about me that was like that i was like what do you mean what's wrong with me i didn't know and so it's like i had it took a lot of years but like i had to go back to like you know i'm gonna be kinder to myself and it's gonna start with what i say to myself so i get an uncomfortable feeling now if i say like if i say something bad to myself internally it's

[01:24:48] like oh that feels uncomfortable because for a while it felt normal and it doesn't feel normal anymore if i talk shit about myself so just be nice to yourself thank you that's that's beautiful it's perfect and you know what carolyn like this is the end of our episode we have a tradition as we end our episode uh we like to tell people like buy fire merch all the other fun saint things blah

[01:25:11] blah subscribe to carolyn's patreon all the things but we always attempt to say that pride has spoken together at the end could we all do that yeah we try but is there anything specific you want to plug yeah before we do that not really i mean and even my like um i need to like my patreon i need to like it's been dry and um um it happens yeah because no one's in the dms i like it's

[01:25:46] sorry why no one it's okay no i'm right it's on me okay i don't need and honestly if it happened i'd be like get away from me so whatever i'm that type will complain no matter what so anyway um what was i saying oh i got that bad rot shit coming or sorry that you could say you could say that

[01:26:10] it's and i will say this there's the survivor i felt like um there were times where i truly felt like they're not gonna have enough footage to like edit this fun because we were doing nothing and we just had no energy and we're so boring i felt at times 100 like no energy draging's on the ground

[01:26:35] traitors i was like these people are so performative that like i ain't buying it there are these actors and this was like such a mix of like there were so many times where i was like in the bed looking around and i'm like this is the craziest shit like i've ever seen and it wasn't the performance it was

[01:26:58] some but it was just crazy so i'm excited to watch it um i did not hold back it's amazing wow what a promo for the show um but like honestly yeah that's insane and being in a bed what come on and wait what is it how how can one watch it youtube or it's yes so it's it's on youtube i don't know the

[01:27:23] date and apparently they're just like it was supposed to be today it was anyway but it's coming soon next week sometime i'm thinking but i'm nervous too like don't then i'm like whatever like but it's basically the same old shit i cry a lot like you're also doing in charlotte you're doing celebrity trader slash mafia oh yeah yeah that's a thing that's happening that's gonna be and then there's something else i don't know when they're gonna um

[01:27:52] i don't know i can't really say that yet but we'll tease it'll be fun i'm excited for that to yeah okay well that's exciting thank you carolyn thank you so much and we try to do it on the count of three we're gonna say the pride is spoken okay one two three

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