The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 11: Deshawn Radden

[00:00:00] This Friday, your favorite emotions are back on the big screen in Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2.

[00:00:04] It's time to greet your Team Riley!

[00:00:08] It's anger!

[00:00:09] Let me at him!

[00:00:10] Fear!

[00:00:11] Safety checklist is complete!

[00:00:13] Disgust!

[00:00:14] Ew! Ew!

[00:00:14] Ugh! Sad!

[00:00:17] Oh no!

[00:00:18] Hello, I'm anxiety.

[00:00:20] I'm one of Riley's new emotions.

[00:00:21] Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2.

[00:00:23] There's a part two?

[00:00:24] We're going!

[00:00:25] Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested. Only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.

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[00:01:31] Hey, what's up, everyone?

[00:01:31] It's Romeo Escobar from Survivor Season 42.

[00:01:34] And I want to wish you a very happy Pride.

[00:01:36] Remember, always be true to yourself and live pridefully.

[00:01:55] Hello, everyone.

[00:01:56] And welcome back to The Pride Has Spoken.

[00:01:59] Your very gay survivor podcast.

[00:02:03] Maybe the most gay survivor podcast or queer or, you know, it could be very lesbian or trans or,

[00:02:10] but you know, all of the identities.

[00:02:14] I'm Matt Scott.

[00:02:17] Happy to be here.

[00:02:18] And as you can tell by the laughs and the wonderful, lovely awkwardness, I am not alone.

[00:02:24] I am joined first and foremost, Grace Leder.

[00:02:28] Hi, Matt.

[00:02:29] Could be an asexual podcast, could be a questioning podcast, could be intersex.

[00:02:35] Unfortunately, it's not ally as much as you think it is.

[00:02:37] It is.

[00:02:38] I mean, it is, but you're not in the acronym.

[00:02:40] You're just also an ally, but that's OK.

[00:02:43] Yeah.

[00:02:43] Well, we, of course, are not alone.

[00:02:45] Of course, we're joined by the one and only Dr. Evy Jagoda.

[00:02:48] Evy, how are you doing?

[00:02:49] Hello, friends.

[00:02:50] I'm so good.

[00:02:51] I'm so glad to be here.

[00:02:53] All right.

[00:02:54] Quick pronoun check.

[00:02:54] Evy, what pronouns do you use?

[00:02:56] I use they them pronouns.

[00:02:58] Thanks for asking, Grace.

[00:02:59] Matt, how about you?

[00:03:00] Thank you for asking.

[00:03:02] My pronouns are he, him and Grace.

[00:03:04] What are your pronouns?

[00:03:06] I use she her pronouns.

[00:03:07] Thanks for asking.

[00:03:08] And this you know, this is an extremely special episode of the podcast for me.

[00:03:14] As you can all see by clicking on this podcast, this is a wonderful,

[00:03:20] really important episode with newly Dr. Deshaun Radin.

[00:03:25] Oh, double doctoring.

[00:03:26] He's been doing a lot.

[00:03:28] He also recently finished his podiatry degree, so he's got a lot going on.

[00:03:33] And I think this is a really special interview.

[00:03:35] I'm really, really excited to get to share it with you all.

[00:03:40] I think the first thing I want is just like, thank Deshaun for doing this.

[00:03:44] I think I, when you, Evy, were talking about that,

[00:03:47] this might be a thing that Deshaun was willing to share.

[00:03:49] But I actually haven't heard the interview at the time of we're recording.

[00:03:53] I was very excited because not just for Deshaun.

[00:03:56] And I think the thing I was, I have a friend of mine,

[00:03:58] actually who people know, this is Brooklyn Zedd,

[00:04:00] who we joke about when people are like, you're so brave, you're so strong.

[00:04:03] And I do think it's kind of silly coming from straight people,

[00:04:06] but I do say it to other people, it is not easy to come out.

[00:04:09] And especially coming out on a platform like this is not easy.

[00:04:13] So I just appreciate Deshaun's vulnerability and openness to doing this,

[00:04:17] because I think this will be an incredibly important,

[00:04:19] I think incredibly cool thing that is happening in this particular space.

[00:04:24] So I guess it's really awesome.

[00:04:25] It is awesome.

[00:04:27] And there's so many levels, but I just, I'm so happy for him

[00:04:33] that he's able to have this conversation, be part of this, to come out.

[00:04:38] And I don't know, when I heard the news of him being part of The Pride has spoken

[00:04:44] and part of the community, especially as a queer Black man,

[00:04:50] there's so many emotions because I know,

[00:04:53] and of course we'll hear his story in just a few minutes and what that looks like.

[00:04:57] But I know for so many queer Black people

[00:05:00] that there are a lot of obstacles and challenges

[00:05:03] and people not feeling comfortable

[00:05:05] or not necessarily always being accepted coming out,

[00:05:08] which happens in a lot of cases.

[00:05:10] But I want Deshaun to know that we are a warm, amazing embrace.

[00:05:17] And this community, The Pride has spoken community

[00:05:20] is just a warm embrace as much as Deshaun wants or needs it.

[00:05:26] Yes, absolutely.

[00:05:27] For people listening, take this time, spread some love to Deshaun.

[00:05:31] I know it will mean a lot to him.

[00:05:32] And yeah, I just feel so happy for Deshaun

[00:05:36] that he's at a point in his life where this is something

[00:05:37] he wants to share with the world.

[00:05:39] And I just also feel really happy, like, you know,

[00:05:42] as we all know what you see on Survivor is always

[00:05:45] like the tip of the iceberg of who a person is.

[00:05:47] And I'm someone who has been very blessed to get to know Deshaun

[00:05:51] in a much deeper level than just even being on the show with him.

[00:05:55] But, you know, in the time after and he's just like an absolutely

[00:05:58] wonderful person that you saw, like the tiniest little bit

[00:06:02] and messiest little sneaky bit on the in the game.

[00:06:06] And I just really, really, really, really happy that he's sharing

[00:06:10] more of himself with the world and that we get to, yeah,

[00:06:13] we get to show more of Deshaun to everyone.

[00:06:17] So he's a yeah, he's an awesome guy.

[00:06:19] And I'm just so, so, so, so, so happy to welcome him into this world.

[00:06:24] And yeah, send some love to Deshaun because he deserves it for sure.

[00:06:29] So we'll get to I think I don't want to waste no time getting an interview.

[00:06:32] Just a reminder, you can buy a pride buff at Rob's website dot com slash pride buff.

[00:06:36] And you have to fill out the preorder or it should be available to just purchase

[00:06:40] outright. You can also purchase a T-shirt, a price T-shirt on Rob's website dot com slash store.

[00:06:45] All the proceeds going to Point of Pride,

[00:06:48] a charity that supports folks getting gender affirming care and

[00:06:52] offering support for trans health care, which is amazing.

[00:06:56] But I think we should just get right to.

[00:06:59] Yeah, yeah, let's get into before we get into I just want to give a shout to Evie,

[00:07:04] Evie for creating that space like we do.

[00:07:07] I don't think we like properly just thanked you or recognized you in this,

[00:07:12] but I just want to before we hop into the interview to say that like it is amazing

[00:07:16] that Dashaun could feel comfortable to have that conversation and to share.

[00:07:21] And I think that you being part of this is a huge piece of that.

[00:07:24] But also, if this conversation leads to others coming out or figuring out their own journey,

[00:07:30] like I think sometimes we overlook like how much that these conversations can mean to people.

[00:07:36] But I just want to say like how grateful I am, especially for this conversation to you, Evie,

[00:07:41] for for, you know, creating that space.

[00:07:45] That's what it's all about.

[00:07:46] So, hell yeah.

[00:07:48] Hell yeah.

[00:07:48] I appreciate that.

[00:07:49] And, you know, you pay it forward in this queer world.

[00:07:52] You know, someone helped me and I'm happy to help other people.

[00:07:56] And we all just keep helping each other.

[00:07:57] And that's how it goes.

[00:07:58] So with that, let's hear from Dashaun.

[00:08:03] Hello, it is Ryan.

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[00:08:34] Okay, round two.

[00:08:36] Name something that's not boring.

[00:08:38] A laundry?

[00:08:40] Oh, a book club.

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[00:09:04] Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we?

[00:09:08] Just to make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting your steps,

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[00:09:35] It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.

[00:09:37] What do you do when you win?

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[00:10:07] Okay.

[00:10:08] It is my absolute pleasure.

[00:10:11] You all know listening to this, I get excited every time.

[00:10:13] But I have to say I've interviewed some like old school legends like Amy in season one and

[00:10:19] some winners like Jam Jam last week.

[00:10:21] But I don't think I've ever been more excited for one of these interviews than I am right

[00:10:25] now.

[00:10:26] It is my absolute pleasure to welcome my dear friend, the runner up of season 41, the new

[00:10:34] doctor, Deshaun Radded.

[00:10:36] Deshaun, welcome to The Pride Has Spoken.

[00:10:39] Thank you.

[00:10:39] Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:10:40] That means the world.

[00:10:42] I'm so excited to be here.

[00:10:44] You know, our journey here has been quite quite the journey.

[00:10:46] So I'm excited to chat with you about this stuff.

[00:10:48] Yeah.

[00:10:49] Hell yes.

[00:10:49] This has been a podcast several years, maybe even a lifetime in the making, you know?

[00:10:55] I would say a lifetime.

[00:10:56] I like a lifetime.

[00:10:58] That's how it goes.

[00:10:59] That's how it goes.

[00:11:00] It's a lifetime.

[00:11:02] Okay.

[00:11:02] So for those of you listening to this, you're getting another classic Deshaun truth bomb.

[00:11:10] Yeah.

[00:11:10] Deshaun, he's here.

[00:11:12] He's queer.

[00:11:12] He's on The Pride Has Spoken.

[00:11:14] You might not have seen it coming, but here he is.

[00:11:17] I love that so much.

[00:11:19] That was that was perfect.

[00:11:20] Yeah.

[00:11:20] So what were you going to say?

[00:11:21] Sorry.

[00:11:21] No, I was I have to say Matt Scott set me up with that one.

[00:11:24] He was like, you have to say truth bomb.

[00:11:26] And I was like, that's right.

[00:11:27] That's good.

[00:11:27] Period.

[00:11:28] Listen, shout out to Matt.

[00:11:29] He reached out to me via IG for the first time and we connected.

[00:11:33] So like shout out to that guy, man.

[00:11:35] He's such a sweetie, right?

[00:11:36] He's such a sweetie.

[00:11:37] Yeah.

[00:11:38] So first of all, does that feel right?

[00:11:40] Is queer the word we're using?

[00:11:42] Does that feel right?

[00:11:43] Queer is the exact word and not to gas you up, Evy, but it was because of you that I

[00:11:50] like learn the jargon because like, you know, like I didn't realize how important something

[00:11:54] as simple as like language was.

[00:11:56] And when I was like trying to figure myself out, like I'd always be like, I don't know

[00:11:59] if gay feels right, but I definitely know I'm not straight.

[00:12:02] And I know like what a term what the term was.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:06] So we were on the island and I heard you call yourself queer.

[00:12:09] And then I heard you speak of it in an empowering way.

[00:12:12] It was like, wow, I think that that's something that I identify with.

[00:12:15] It feels like like a blanket term, like just to say, like, listen, guys, I'm not straight.

[00:12:19] I'm here.

[00:12:19] It is what it is.

[00:12:20] So you really you spoke power into the word, because when I was growing up, queer was a

[00:12:24] very derogatory term for people.

[00:12:26] So just watching you and you owning your title as, you know, a queer person was very, very

[00:12:33] influential to me.

[00:12:34] So, yeah, queer is perfect.

[00:12:35] Hell yeah, I love that.

[00:12:37] I love that.

[00:12:37] And yeah, everything you know, everything I do, I'm paying it forward from people before

[00:12:42] me who, you know, help me with that same thing, because I totally know what you mean of like,

[00:12:46] you know, when I was a kid and be like lesbian, like, I don't know, like I don't know.

[00:12:50] That doesn't feel right because also like I don't know, kissing that boy was OK.

[00:12:53] You know what I mean?

[00:12:54] It's right.

[00:12:55] You know, and it's like, yeah, it's so important to like be like, oh, fuck boxes.

[00:13:00] Like, you know what I mean?

[00:13:01] Like maybe that box is right for you, but maybe it's not.

[00:13:04] Yeah, I can use whatever the fuck you want.

[00:13:06] And so I'm so glad.

[00:13:07] Yeah, no, I feel like we're is like as close as you can get to saying like, fuck it, fuck

[00:13:11] a box, fuck checking a box like I'm queer.

[00:13:13] Like, yeah, I don't know.

[00:13:15] So yes, we're queer is good.

[00:13:16] Yes, I love that.

[00:13:18] OK, queer is good.

[00:13:19] We love that.

[00:13:20] OK, so obviously, first off, we should just say season 41 gayest season ever.

[00:13:24] We got you out now.

[00:13:26] We got Erica out.

[00:13:27] I mean, we already had me, Ricard and Jeannie.

[00:13:30] Like it's a gay ass cast.

[00:13:32] It's a gay ass cast.

[00:13:34] And that's why it was so good.

[00:13:36] And if you don't agree, it was good.

[00:13:37] You should go back and watch it again.

[00:13:39] That is right.

[00:13:40] That's exactly right.

[00:13:42] That's exactly right.

[00:13:43] OK, so let's do it all.

[00:13:46] What is this?

[00:13:46] What is this journey of like, yeah, getting yourself to the word queer or being able to

[00:13:52] identify that way in your head to yourself out loud?

[00:13:55] Like what are the steps in that path?

[00:13:59] Oh, man, it's been it's been quite the journey.

[00:14:01] You know, so you know all this stuff, but I'll share it with the with the audience.

[00:14:06] I came out back in like twenty twenty one.

[00:14:09] And when I came out, I came out to my immediate family, all of my immediate family and then

[00:14:14] a few close friends.

[00:14:15] And then later that year, I came out to you at one of our watch parties.

[00:14:19] And the struggle there was that like since I never made a public statement, there's spaces

[00:14:25] that are occupied that I wasn't out in.

[00:14:27] And so sometimes I had to like make the decision to like, do I want to correct somebody when

[00:14:33] they very innocently assume my sexuality or do I just want to let it fly?

[00:14:36] Like people just didn't know.

[00:14:39] Right.

[00:14:39] And so this is an opportunity to be out here is a really cool opportunity to be able to

[00:14:44] say to the world like, hey, I'm queer.

[00:14:45] But in terms of the journey, it's been a long way.

[00:14:49] It was a twenty five year journey.

[00:14:50] Like I said, I came on twenty one twenty twenty one.

[00:14:53] And so my journey pre coming out has been longer than my journey post.

[00:14:58] But how far back do we want to go?

[00:15:00] Do we want to?

[00:15:01] Yeah, let's go.

[00:15:02] We can take it all the way back.

[00:15:03] Let's go back.

[00:15:04] OK, I'm excited.

[00:15:05] OK, so I feel like my earliest human memory was actually when I was like four or five

[00:15:12] years old.

[00:15:13] Not obviously I live life before that, but like this was the memory that I can recall.

[00:15:17] And it was like 2000, like 1999, 2000.

[00:15:21] And there was like a legend by the name of Britney Spears.

[00:15:24] And she had this song called Me Baby One More Time.

[00:15:27] And I love this song.

[00:15:29] Yeah.

[00:15:29] Like I had like a whole like dance to it.

[00:15:31] Like it had a one two step and I was just like being free, being a kid.

[00:15:35] And I was very quickly reminded in that moment that like like little boys don't do this,

[00:15:40] whether it's listen to Britney Spears or whether it's dance like it was it was very quickly

[00:15:44] evident that like there's going to be rules to this life and those rules might not feel

[00:15:49] natural for you.

[00:15:51] But like you're going to have to either get in line or like be ostracized.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:55] And so that was like the first moment where I felt like, OK, I might be a little different.

[00:15:59] Obviously, there's no sexuality undertone to that, but it was just like, I think I

[00:16:03] might be different.

[00:16:04] So and you can interject at any time because, you know, very long winded.

[00:16:08] No, this is great.

[00:16:09] You saw I just want to say that image of little boy, just shine dancing to me.

[00:16:15] Baby makes me so happy.

[00:16:17] I love that for you so much.

[00:16:19] And I'm so sorry that you got that message so early.

[00:16:22] There's a sense of like in their minds, they think they're like, quote unquote, like looking

[00:16:26] out for you.

[00:16:27] You know what I mean?

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:28] Like you're going to be, you know, that's not how to move the world.

[00:16:31] Like let me let me teach you that that's, you know, how to be more successful in the world,

[00:16:35] not even realizing how much harm potentially doing, you know, from all from all sides and

[00:16:41] kids repeating messages that they've heard.

[00:16:42] You know, it's just yeah, we got to change it at all the levels, you know what I mean?

[00:16:47] This is very, very true.

[00:16:48] I couldn't agree more.

[00:16:50] Um, OK, so like that was like one of the.

[00:16:54] Yes, I was totally in a really who was it back in the day that was one of like the first

[00:16:58] earliest human memories I have.

[00:17:00] And then as I was like going through school, like elementary school, middle school, all

[00:17:04] that stuff, again, no like idea about sexuality at all.

[00:17:09] I'm such a young boy, but like I did notice that I like to hang out with girls a lot more.

[00:17:13] And that was one of the things that like I kind of like, you know, I noticed because

[00:17:17] it's like whether it was like talking to guys or hanging out with them, like the conversations

[00:17:21] that they would have would just make me so like uncomfortable.

[00:17:23] Like I just didn't care.

[00:17:24] Like they want to talk about girls or sports.

[00:17:26] And I did play football when I was growing up.

[00:17:28] So I kind of had like a I guess a pass into the boys club or whatever.

[00:17:31] But like watching sports, I didn't do didn't care to like be a fanatic of sports.

[00:17:35] And I didn't obviously like look at girls the same way that they did.

[00:17:38] And so I used to like hang out with girls a lot.

[00:17:40] We would kiki on us.

[00:17:42] I was like, have a good time.

[00:17:43] You know, it was good.

[00:17:44] It was it was you know, it was easy.

[00:17:46] And so I noticed that that was the thing for me.

[00:17:49] And then the whole idea of being like perceived as somebody who even had a sexuality didn't

[00:17:54] come into like eighth grade.

[00:17:55] And that happened when I was like being bullied by I don't like the term bully because you

[00:18:00] can't really believe me.

[00:18:01] But I mean, I was in eighth grade and there were guys who would say like, oh, he's gay.

[00:18:05] And during this time, this is like 07, 08, where, you know, being gay was like a pass

[00:18:10] for people to treat you as kind of like subhuman.

[00:18:13] Like, yeah, they didn't have to respect you if they felt that way about you, especially

[00:18:17] in the city where I grew up.

[00:18:19] And so that was the first time where I got like an inkling that people are perceiving

[00:18:23] me as something that I haven't even really had a chance to figure out myself yet.

[00:18:27] Right.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:29] When when they were saying that kind of stuff, were you like were you like, oh, fuck, that's

[00:18:34] true?

[00:18:34] Or like, were you just like, fuck these guys?

[00:18:36] Like what was kind of the if you remember it was the latter.

[00:18:40] It was like, fuck these guys, because it's like, bro, I have there was no basis for this

[00:18:45] this conversation at all.

[00:18:46] I hadn't kissed a guy.

[00:18:47] I hadn't held hands with the guy.

[00:18:49] I really hadn't had crushes on anybody.

[00:18:50] I was just operating as a kid.

[00:18:51] Like I was just literally just being a kid.

[00:18:54] And so it was like, fuck these guys, because I also knew what that would admit.

[00:18:58] That they were trying to do.

[00:18:59] And so that was tough.

[00:19:00] But when I look back in retrospect, like obviously they were also 12, 13 years old.

[00:19:04] So like who can blame them?

[00:19:06] Who I can potentially blame a little bit is and this is the craziest thing.

[00:19:11] I mean, tell me if this is wild, but like I had a lot of close friends who are girls

[00:19:14] and I knew their parents.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:16] And their parents used to talk about me and say, oh, that kid's gay or he's going to be

[00:19:20] gay.

[00:19:20] Damn, dude.

[00:19:21] That's wild to me because like they were foregrown.

[00:19:24] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:25] It's just like the way I mean, society is changing, but not fast enough.

[00:19:30] And like it's just so fucked.

[00:19:33] Like what are adults doing messaging that to their kids?

[00:19:36] And and even even if they're like not even meaning anything bad by it, which they probably

[00:19:41] are if they're gossiping about it.

[00:19:43] But like you just don't need to like put that on children, like especially like eighth grade.

[00:19:49] Like you can think back and be like, oh, that's a preteen or whatever.

[00:19:52] That's a child.

[00:19:53] Like go look at an eighth grade or like that is a little kid, you know?

[00:19:58] And like, yeah, like no one should have that put on them.

[00:20:01] And like everyone should get to figure that shit out.

[00:20:04] And also you can like Britney and talk to girls and not be gay.

[00:20:08] Like exactly.

[00:20:10] Their own shit out like, yes, yes.

[00:20:13] I cannot agree more.

[00:20:14] Like it was just irritating.

[00:20:16] And then it's like, well, y'all can see something in me that I can't even like I haven't gotten

[00:20:20] there yet.

[00:20:20] So it's just like, like give kids a time, give them their time to like figure it out.

[00:20:26] But that was yeah, that was a lot.

[00:20:28] And then, you know, as I was moving through high school, I tried to like date around and

[00:20:31] date girls and stuff.

[00:20:32] And I tried to keep it like try to keep it, you know, I wouldn't say a facade because

[00:20:37] I really didn't know at this point.

[00:20:38] I still wasn't sure about this part of myself, but I was just trying to be normal.

[00:20:42] Yeah.

[00:20:43] Um, but then by the time I got to college, it was like, OK, like, I think there's something

[00:20:48] here that I probably need to figure out a little bit like is I probably need to see

[00:20:53] about it.

[00:20:54] But I had a choice at 17 to either like go into college and like figure it out or I could

[00:20:59] either just follow the status quo.

[00:21:01] And I was I chose the latter, unfortunately, and that just prolonged my journey.

[00:21:06] You know, it happens.

[00:21:07] So it happened.

[00:21:09] It it happens to so many of us.

[00:21:11] Like it's like no shame or anything like it's your whole life.

[00:21:16] Like you just told us your whole life.

[00:21:17] You've been told being gay is bad.

[00:21:19] It's something to be made fun of.

[00:21:21] It's something parents are going to talk about.

[00:21:23] It's something you're going to get bullied about.

[00:21:24] Like, yeah, it's so normal to be like, well, if I could be, quote unquote, normal, I should

[00:21:30] try that.

[00:21:30] Right.

[00:21:31] I mean, I know that's that was the case for me.

[00:21:32] Like it happened in all these like for me, I didn't even have it like so conscious.

[00:21:37] It was like these micro flashes where I'd be like, oh, no, I think I might think that

[00:21:41] girl is hot.

[00:21:42] No, you don't.

[00:21:43] Being gay is hard.

[00:21:44] OK, just be straight.

[00:21:45] Like, yeah, like one second.

[00:21:47] You know what I mean?

[00:21:48] Yeah, I couldn't even told you that's what was happening, but that's what was happening.

[00:21:51] And so like that's so true.

[00:21:53] You know, you're here now, you know?

[00:21:55] So, yeah, that's right.

[00:21:58] But no, I like the way that you explain that because it's like it's like a hodgepodge of

[00:22:01] emotions like you don't especially when you're not like when you haven't sold yourself on

[00:22:06] it, you're like you're trying to figure it out.

[00:22:07] And like you feel so many different things at once.

[00:22:10] You're like, was that relationship with that girl real?

[00:22:12] Was that legitimate?

[00:22:13] And so all the things.

[00:22:14] And so when I when I got to college, I chose the latter path, obviously, of trying to date

[00:22:19] girls.

[00:22:19] And I met another girl who I dated like long term.

[00:22:21] But it really sucked because like.

[00:22:24] At that point, I was figuring out that I was probably what I now know is queer and I was

[00:22:29] still dealing with this person.

[00:22:31] And so there was a part of me that was like not showing up for this person in a healthy

[00:22:35] way, obviously.

[00:22:36] And I could recognize that as it was happening.

[00:22:38] And so once that relationship kind of ended or fizzled, I pretty much made a promise to

[00:22:43] myself that like I'm not going to date anybody else until I'm able to figure this out, because

[00:22:47] like I don't want to hurt somebody because I don't have my own shit together.

[00:22:52] So I stopped dating at that point.

[00:22:54] And college was just a weird time, like between like 18 to 25 when I came out, like I lived

[00:22:59] like this duality of life everywhere.

[00:23:02] It was like so I'm obviously a doctor now.

[00:23:05] I'm a medical doctor.

[00:23:06] Yeah, that's right.

[00:23:07] That's right.

[00:23:08] Congratulations.

[00:23:09] That's like so fresh, right?

[00:23:11] We're talking like a month.

[00:23:13] Very fresh.

[00:23:14] And I actually start like next month, but I bring that up to say like where I come from,

[00:23:18] both culturally and like the city, like it's a big deal to be a doctor.

[00:23:21] And so the duality of my life during these years was like on the one hand, I will like

[00:23:26] walk outside and I'm the guy that everybody's looking at as like having all his like stuff

[00:23:31] together.

[00:23:31] He's successful.

[00:23:32] He has it all figured out.

[00:23:33] He has to be happy, right?

[00:23:34] Like he's somebody who you can look to to kind of like, you know, model after.

[00:23:38] And then whenever I would come home and be alone by myself, there were all of these thoughts

[00:23:42] of anxiety and depression and just like shame about this part of myself that I hadn't quite

[00:23:48] figured out yet.

[00:23:48] And obviously there was like substance use and trying to, you know, use that to like,

[00:23:53] you know, to kind of like help with the feelings that I was feeling, which didn't help at all,

[00:23:58] by the way.

[00:23:58] But I mean, during the time I thought it was a quick fix.

[00:24:01] And so there was just extreme duality.

[00:24:03] Like on the one hand, people saw me as this guy who was successful.

[00:24:06] But in my heart, I felt like just anguish, like almost every single day.

[00:24:10] You're kind of having to like, like you figure that out.

[00:24:13] You know, like, who am I?

[00:24:15] Who actually am I?

[00:24:16] And so that was my life for a lot of a lot of different years.

[00:24:19] I don't know if like have you experienced something similar to that?

[00:24:23] I don't know.

[00:24:24] That sounds hard as hell.

[00:24:25] I just want to say that's yeah, dude.

[00:24:27] I mean, I really feel like for me, I literally didn't even.

[00:24:32] Like it wasn't even so conscious, you know what I mean?

[00:24:34] It's like I was rather than being like.

[00:24:38] Knowing I was hiding a piece of myself, I kind of like was hiding it so deep,

[00:24:42] even for myself that like in some way it like made it quote unquote easier.

[00:24:47] Like I didn't have quite like the level that you're describing of like

[00:24:52] the like intense depression and things like that.

[00:24:54] But like but then also when I did finally like literally let myself realize it.

[00:24:59] I was like had a freak out of like what does it say about me that like I didn't even know

[00:25:05] this in myself, even though it's so obvious.

[00:25:07] And you know, when I started to tell people similar to your like Britney and and being

[00:25:13] friends with girls, people were like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

[00:25:15] Like I mean, yeah, because the flannels and the like, you know, like when I was a kid,

[00:25:20] I was always playing with the boys and like like I love trucks and all this like stereotypical

[00:25:25] shit that like. I literally it was honestly like a whole different type of shame of like,

[00:25:32] what does it say about me that like I'm the kind of person that like

[00:25:35] wouldn't even think the thought to myself, you know what I mean?

[00:25:38] Like I've been such a prisoner in my own brain almost, you know?

[00:25:41] Yeah. But like interesting.

[00:25:44] It really makes so much sense, especially like when you are so successful in one regard and

[00:25:49] like you have people looking up to you in that way that it would be even harder to like

[00:25:54] want to reveal a piece of yourself that might change that image.

[00:25:56] Right. I mean, I think that was like the thing that.

[00:26:00] When I started to like be like, OK, this is for real, I need to tell people about it.

[00:26:05] The thing that was really just so scary was how are they going to look at me?

[00:26:09] You know, you know, what are they going to think?

[00:26:11] And that stuff like perception by others and society is like so scary and real and like

[00:26:19] defines a lot of a lot of things.

[00:26:21] And like, yeah, it makes just makes a lot of sense.

[00:26:25] And I'm also just I love you and I'm sorry that you went through that.

[00:26:29] You know, I'm like, no, I love you.

[00:26:32] No, it's fine. It's fine.

[00:26:33] It's all it's really fine when I'm at the space that I'm at now.

[00:26:36] Yeah, it's like you you get like it wasn't for nothing.

[00:26:39] Like, yeah, I'm so glad that there's like that I saw value in myself.

[00:26:43] And I hope anybody who's listening like knows, like even if you're going through it,

[00:26:46] like now or you don't even know like which way, which direction you're going.

[00:26:50] Like there's value in you as an individual, regardless of how things turn out.

[00:26:54] So I'm 100 percent.

[00:26:55] No, I appreciate your perspective on things, too, because like it also shows like how vastly

[00:27:00] different journeys towards coming out can be like, you know, for sure.

[00:27:04] Yeah, for sure.

[00:27:05] And like, yeah, to people listening like it's like cliche, but it just is true.

[00:27:10] Like it gets better.

[00:27:11] It just does.

[00:27:12] Like, you know, wherever it just it just will.

[00:27:15] Like, yes, you'll find peace within yourself.

[00:27:17] You'll find the people that are your people.

[00:27:20] You'll find the spaces where it's OK to talk about like even if you're never like all the

[00:27:24] way out, like you're it will get better from from the low point.

[00:27:29] Like it just it just will.

[00:27:31] Yeah, that's so true.

[00:27:33] Even like thinking about when you first invited me on this podcast, which was I think it was

[00:27:36] twenty twenty two when you.

[00:27:38] Yeah, like I think that, yeah, the first season of this.

[00:27:40] Yeah.

[00:27:40] So yeah.

[00:27:41] Yeah.

[00:27:42] And like I wasn't I wasn't ready yet.

[00:27:44] Like I just wasn't there.

[00:27:45] There's stuff I had to figure out, like with my spirituality and all of the things.

[00:27:48] And so like from then to now, now here I am and I'm excited to have these conversations.

[00:27:52] Yeah, I'm stoked to be here.

[00:27:54] So that can even be an example of like you're not going to be in that place that, you know,

[00:27:58] feels troubling forever.

[00:27:59] So yeah, words are so true for sure.

[00:28:01] Yes, yes.

[00:28:02] And that's the whole thing.

[00:28:03] Like we started this with like queerness and like fuck the box and everything.

[00:28:06] And it's just like nothing is static, like everything changes, like time continues,

[00:28:11] you know, like and even your identity changes.

[00:28:14] You know, like for me, I've had you know, I was, you know, 24 and I was like,

[00:28:17] phew, I finally got all that sexuality stuff figured out.

[00:28:21] And then it's like, bam, gender, like what's going on with that?

[00:28:24] You know, you don't know like what's going to happen.

[00:28:28] And just like like I think the biggest gift we can give ourselves is just like

[00:28:32] allow ourselves to be on the journey.

[00:28:34] Right.

[00:28:34] Yeah.

[00:28:35] Let yourself mull through that shit, even if it's painful, even if it's hard, you know?

[00:28:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:41] That's so true.

[00:28:42] I couldn't. You're so wise.

[00:28:45] This is why we're so cool.

[00:28:46] Yeah, you know, this is like a real, real talk, like obviously not like exactly like this,

[00:28:51] but we had deep talks on the island.

[00:28:52] Like, you know, I mean, this is the kind of stuff like if only we had 90 minutes, you know?

[00:28:57] Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:58] It felt me.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:28:59] But like for real, like it is so true that you just sit around and talk about shit on

[00:29:04] Survivalhook like a huge part of the time.

[00:29:06] No, that's so that's so true.

[00:29:08] I was thinking about like I was trying to like in my mind, think about how my experience

[00:29:12] related to Survivor and I'm sure we'll get there at some point.

[00:29:15] But yeah, it definitely did.

[00:29:17] Like being not out on the island definitely had an impact.

[00:29:19] But yeah, but yeah.

[00:29:21] So we got to get there, but we got to make our way.

[00:29:24] But we're almost there.

[00:29:25] I was there.

[00:29:26] So take your time, dude.

[00:29:27] This is fantastic.

[00:29:28] Yeah.

[00:29:29] OK, OK.

[00:29:30] So what was I saying?

[00:29:32] OK, we're at the stage of you really struggling with it in college.

[00:29:36] I think maybe college beginning med school, I think we're at or.

[00:29:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:29:41] Like exactly then.

[00:29:42] And yeah, so I remember there were COVID and we're in 2020 at this point.

[00:29:50] And we've gone through the catwalk.

[00:29:52] I've gone through the casting process for Survivor.

[00:29:54] Obviously, I didn't tell them I'm queer because I didn't I'm not out yet and stuff.

[00:29:58] I haven't gotten there.

[00:30:00] But during COVID, I feel like people who struggle with any level of anything,

[00:30:06] like if you had any quote unquote demon that you had to figure out during COVID,

[00:30:10] it either got really bad, it got worse.

[00:30:13] And you had an opportunity to bury it more and use more vices to stifle yourself in that

[00:30:18] process of figuring it out.

[00:30:19] Or you had the opportunity to address it.

[00:30:22] And I addressed it, but not because I'm some guy who is just the noble man and decided

[00:30:27] to do it.

[00:30:27] I did it because like I spent a considerable amount of time at home with my family and

[00:30:32] I didn't like to be a debrider in front of my family.

[00:30:34] I didn't have my vices there.

[00:30:36] So I had no choice but to look myself in the mirror and figure it out.

[00:30:39] There was so much downtime.

[00:30:41] Obviously, I was still in school, but we weren't going to class in person, no labs, no workshops.

[00:30:46] So like so much more time was just dedicated to me figuring myself out.

[00:30:49] And while I was there, my brother was also living with my parents at the time.

[00:30:54] And he was my age now.

[00:30:57] He was 28 in 2020.

[00:30:59] And he was going through this really intense, intensely cool spiritual growth period.

[00:31:05] My brother's always been super opinionated.

[00:31:07] But at this stage, I started to really perceive him as one, an older brother, because I always

[00:31:12] felt like we're all on the same playing field.

[00:31:14] But two, one, an older brother and two, someone whose opinions could actually help drive my

[00:31:20] life forward in a positive way.

[00:31:22] His concepts and the way that he thought about life, and especially God, because we always

[00:31:27] had God in our life and stuff.

[00:31:29] Those conversations really helped spring me forward.

[00:31:31] And through those conversations, I figured out my biggest fear in life would be if I

[00:31:36] were to die, because we're all going to die, right?

[00:31:37] But if I were to die soon, and the only thing that people can talk about is the things that

[00:31:42] I did.

[00:31:43] Oh, he went to medical school.

[00:31:44] Oh, he was a doctor.

[00:31:45] That was what my entire identity was at that point.

[00:31:48] And nobody could ever speak to how it made them feel or like my authentic self or like,

[00:31:52] you know what it was like to be around me genuinely.

[00:31:55] Like if people don't actually know me while I'm here and in my essence, then like, what

[00:32:00] was it all for?

[00:32:00] So it became like an extreme fear of mine to like, wow, when we have accomplishments

[00:32:05] to talk about during this time.

[00:32:07] Yeah.

[00:32:08] Yeah.

[00:32:09] Oh, my God.

[00:32:09] It's like, like beautiful seems like the wrong word to say, because you're saying as your

[00:32:13] fear, but it is like a beautiful revelation of like, you don't want to be defined by just

[00:32:19] the resume, you know, as amazing and impressive and hard it was to achieve.

[00:32:24] Like, yeah.

[00:32:25] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:26] And you have such a beautiful soul and like so much to offer that's not that I love that.

[00:32:30] I love that.

[00:32:31] Thank you, Eddie.

[00:32:32] Yeah.

[00:32:33] I mean, yeah, just just so everyone knows, like this is going to be a love fest.

[00:32:36] I fucking love you.

[00:32:37] So honestly, and this is how it is when we actually always see each other versus like

[00:32:40] we just love each other now.

[00:32:43] We spend half the time just being like, I love you.

[00:32:44] You're the best.

[00:32:45] Yes, I love it.

[00:32:48] You shouldn't have voted for me so many times.

[00:32:51] We said what?

[00:32:52] You shouldn't have voted for me so many times.

[00:32:53] I know, I really should have, my bad.

[00:32:55] No, no, back at we it was a it was a dual, a two pronged frenemy.

[00:32:59] It really, really was.

[00:33:02] That's so funny.

[00:33:04] But no, I think.

[00:33:04] So you had this realization.

[00:33:06] I had this.

[00:33:07] Yeah, I had this revelation and I'm like, OK, I need to like figure out how I can be

[00:33:10] more authentic in life.

[00:33:12] And so another thing, sorry if I'm being a long winded, literally you can just stop me.

[00:33:15] You're perfect.

[00:33:16] This is great.

[00:33:17] OK, but I'm thinking about this moment because it's related to Survivor, too.

[00:33:20] And I think it'd be a cool story to share.

[00:33:22] I remember I was watching with the same brother.

[00:33:24] I was watching Survivor Kageyan because I knew I was going to be going on Survivor.

[00:33:27] I was trying to get my family into it.

[00:33:29] And we were watching Bryce Isaiah, who's the king of kings of all Survivor of the

[00:33:33] Survivor world, especially number one zaddy.

[00:33:36] Yes, number one zaddy.

[00:33:38] That's my guy.

[00:33:38] I actually finally met him, like got to spend some time real time with him recently because

[00:33:43] I'm well, now you live in Philly.

[00:33:45] Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:46] Oh, I love that.

[00:33:47] Yeah.

[00:33:47] So we're friends like, well, I'm going to try to make him my friend, too.

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:51] Anyway, so we're watching Kageyan.

[00:33:54] Obviously, Bryce was on with the tribe he was on.

[00:33:56] He didn't get like a ton of airtime into that boot episode when he was at the tribal council

[00:34:00] and it was like his stage.

[00:34:01] Like you could see all of his beautiful colors like shining at his boot tribal council.

[00:34:07] And I can remember my brother saying, like, dang, I wish we saw more of that Bryce when

[00:34:11] we were watching the show.

[00:34:13] And obviously not to he didn't mean it in a way like he was different on the island versus

[00:34:16] tribal, but we just didn't get to see a lot of Bryce until that that moment.

[00:34:20] And so that was a moment.

[00:34:21] And I know Ricard shared a similar story about Richard Hatch, but that was the moment where

[00:34:24] I looked at my family and I was like, dang, like they can root for me if I if I were like

[00:34:28] like that.

[00:34:29] And obviously, Bryce and I are different in terms of personality.

[00:34:32] But like he's gay.

[00:34:33] Obviously, I'm queer.

[00:34:34] And it was just a moment where I was like, dang, like I know my family's not ignorant

[00:34:38] or anything, but it's just like I'm the only queer person in my family.

[00:34:41] I never knew if they would like accept it or like how it would be.

[00:34:44] But when he said that, it was just like, dang, like he could root for somebody like

[00:34:49] like me.

[00:34:50] Ultimately, he's written to write so he can root for somebody like the authentic.

[00:34:53] So that helped me also in my journey.

[00:34:55] So I'm really giving my brother a lot of credit, but it really was important that year that

[00:34:59] I spent there with him.

[00:35:00] It was.

[00:35:00] Oh, yeah.

[00:35:01] For sure.

[00:35:02] Hell yeah.

[00:35:03] And just just to plug that if people want to hear more about the first ever episode

[00:35:07] of this podcast is with Bryce and we talk a lot about like the fact, especially that

[00:35:12] he's shown so little despite being like one of the most personable people on planet Earth.

[00:35:18] Yes.

[00:35:18] So yes, best personality ever.

[00:35:20] Yes.

[00:35:21] Yes.

[00:35:21] But I love that.

[00:35:22] So much time in survivor editing.

[00:35:24] I'm like, that's right.

[00:35:25] That's right.

[00:35:26] That's right.

[00:35:27] But it is so true.

[00:35:28] I mean, and like into.

[00:35:31] Yeah, it's one thing to know like, oh, my family loves me.

[00:35:33] I think they'll love me no matter what.

[00:35:35] But then to really like see a version of yourself or like something you can relate to on TV

[00:35:40] and have your family like that, like it makes so much sense.

[00:35:42] And like I know that's that's the kind of messages I get from people of like I get messages

[00:35:47] from people like I'm still in the closet, but I was like with my family watching the

[00:35:51] episode and like they were like you.

[00:35:53] And that made me feel, you know, I mean, it's just like that's so freaking cool.

[00:35:57] And like I'm so excited that now people are going to know the true you and they're going

[00:36:01] to go back and they're going to watch season 41.

[00:36:03] They're going to realize it's actually one of the best seasons in the new era.

[00:36:06] And that look how cool Deshaun is.

[00:36:09] And look at all these amazing personality traits he has and athletic ability and everything

[00:36:13] he's got.

[00:36:14] And he's fucking queer and he's a doctor.

[00:36:16] And I love it.

[00:36:17] Yeah, yes.

[00:36:18] I love you so much.

[00:36:19] I love you, Dad.

[00:36:20] And oh, my gosh, stop.

[00:36:23] But no, I and I shared that story with Bryce before.

[00:36:26] And that was really cool to be able to like have that full circle.

[00:36:28] I'm sure that meant a lot to him.

[00:36:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:36:31] I think it was it was a good moment for both of us.

[00:36:33] But anyway, OK, so I'm going to come out.

[00:36:35] We're coming out right now.

[00:36:36] Yeah, I'm out of the closet right now.

[00:36:39] After this whole experience, I come out and I came out actually, you know, this I came

[00:36:43] out like maybe like five or six weeks before we went out to actually film Survivor.

[00:36:47] Right.

[00:36:48] And I remember when I came out, like I said, I came out to family, some close friends.

[00:36:51] And then I came out to Jesse Tannenbaum, who's our casting director at the time,

[00:36:54] all within the span of like three hours.

[00:36:57] Like it was like telling everybody right now, dude.

[00:37:00] And you're like about to go do Survivor in the pandemic, which is insane on its own.

[00:37:06] Yes.

[00:37:06] So I don't know if that was a great, great choice, but it just felt right in the moment.

[00:37:10] Like literally because my journey, I have a journey with God, too.

[00:37:14] Like I spent a lot of time trying to reconcile it.

[00:37:16] And I remember the day I came out, I was like on my bathroom floor, like crying.

[00:37:19] And it sounds really dramatic.

[00:37:21] I was listening to like praise and worship music.

[00:37:22] And I just woke up that morning feeling like this is the day where like I think I can I

[00:37:26] feel safe enough to come out.

[00:37:27] I remember praying to God and asking him, like, is it OK?

[00:37:30] Like, should I do it?

[00:37:31] And I just kept hearing the words like, go fly, like go fly like in repeat for like two

[00:37:35] hours.

[00:37:35] And it's just like, OK, it's OK.

[00:37:37] So I came out to them.

[00:37:38] Wow.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:40] It was it was quite the experience.

[00:37:42] I cried every to every person I came out to my family.

[00:37:46] I'm sure they were looking at me like, dude, relax, like it's fine.

[00:37:49] You're going to be OK.

[00:37:50] Oh, man.

[00:37:51] It's a huge struggling with it for so long already at this point.

[00:37:55] And like, yeah, yeah.

[00:37:57] No, that's three hours.

[00:37:59] That's it.

[00:37:59] Yes, they really like a lifetime.

[00:38:01] Like, wait, I'm curious when you came out, was it like an emotional thing for you or was

[00:38:05] it like, well, for me, OK, so like for me, like like, OK, basically, like I the shortest

[00:38:12] version of the story is I in my head, it's like magic.

[00:38:16] Like, I have no idea how it happened.

[00:38:17] I like kiss this girl who also had never kissed a girl.

[00:38:20] We were both just like vibing and at this party.

[00:38:23] And I was like, oh, my God, am I doing something weird?

[00:38:26] Like, I don't know what's happening, but like we kiss and it was just like light bulbs,

[00:38:31] music going off in my head and my heart.

[00:38:33] I was just like, holy shit.

[00:38:35] Yes.

[00:38:36] Nothing has ever been as good as this.

[00:38:38] This is the best time of my life.

[00:38:39] I also don't think I'll ever be able to figure out how to do this again.

[00:38:41] So like this will just be the best time of my life forever.

[00:38:44] And I'll just go back to getting men because like I don't even know how this one happened.

[00:38:48] But like, yeah, it's like so like and like so so it was kind of like in a sense, like

[00:38:54] because it started like that, I had already gotten to experience such intense.

[00:38:59] Like joy was like the first thing of like, holy shit, that's so fun.

[00:39:02] That's so cool.

[00:39:02] That's so exciting.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:04] And then it wasn't until like later when I was really like, OK, I'm like doing this.

[00:39:09] I'm like trying to like date my ultimately my first girlfriend.

[00:39:13] And then I was like, that was the part where I like.

[00:39:15] So after I kiss this first person that I like was like texting my my closest friends who I

[00:39:20] like thought would be into it and we're like, so this is crazy and random.

[00:39:24] But like, you know, I mean, I was kind of like owning it in that fun way.

[00:39:27] But then for me, the real big scary was like telling my parents.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:32] And like with that, was it was it emotional for you to or?

[00:39:35] Yeah.

[00:39:35] Oh, yeah.

[00:39:36] Oh, yeah.

[00:39:36] I was like shaking in the car on the way there.

[00:39:39] You know, like really.

[00:39:42] Also, just because like I never talked to my parents about sex or sexuality or like anything

[00:39:46] like in that type of vulnerability things like I didn't even have like a framework to say it

[00:39:52] to them, you know what I mean?

[00:39:53] And like it was basic.

[00:39:55] So, yeah, it was like, you know.

[00:39:58] I really I just I feel like I walked in the door and I was just like, I have to tell you

[00:40:02] something.

[00:40:03] I'm dating a woman like it was like I couldn't like be normal.

[00:40:07] You know, yeah.

[00:40:08] You just have to like I got up the courage of like this was my time, you know?

[00:40:12] Yeah.

[00:40:13] And, you know, it was they handled it pretty well as like parents go like but I like the

[00:40:18] first thing my dad said to me was like.

[00:40:20] You know, it's going to make your life harder.

[00:40:22] I just want to make sure you know that, you know, and like he's great now, like so supportive.

[00:40:26] He actually just I told him about the fundraiser we're doing for Point of Pride and he just

[00:40:29] like went and donated like he's fantastic.

[00:40:32] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:33] Yeah.

[00:40:34] But, you know, again, once again, it gets better.

[00:40:36] Everybody has to learn stuff, something that that grace that one of the other co-hosts

[00:40:41] of this podcast always says is like when you tell some when you come out to someone you've

[00:40:46] been thinking about it for, you know, 25 years, they are just receiving that information

[00:40:51] for the first time.

[00:40:52] And like I'm guessing pretty intense for everyone that you're like, I'm gay.

[00:40:57] I'm going on Survivor in two seconds.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] Here's the info.

[00:41:01] Bye.

[00:41:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:04] No, that's so true.

[00:41:05] Like everyone has a like it.

[00:41:07] Yeah, it is your process is your your emotions about the situation is most important.

[00:41:12] But like everybody around you has a process.

[00:41:13] So, right.

[00:41:15] Yeah, I experienced something similar, actually, like after I came out the day felt really

[00:41:18] liberating.

[00:41:19] Like it felt amazing that I went to sleep, woke up the next day and I thought everything

[00:41:23] was going to be good.

[00:41:24] And it was not and it's not that it wasn't like good.

[00:41:28] It's just that there is a process that everyone has to go through.

[00:41:31] And so there was a process and something something that my family had to consider.

[00:41:37] And like, you know, they know you as a certain way.

[00:41:39] And then they now have this new piece of information.

[00:41:42] And, you know, they have questions and as they should, as people who love you, you

[00:41:46] know, and there's a procession for me as well.

[00:41:48] Like back then I thought I was just ready to go.

[00:41:50] Like, you know, just throw me on the grill.

[00:41:51] I'm already I'm already warmed up.

[00:41:53] Like I'm ready to go.

[00:41:53] But that's not true.

[00:41:54] Like there are also more questions that I have for God in terms of like the struggle

[00:41:58] and the shame and the depression that I had.

[00:41:59] And like, what was it all for?

[00:42:00] So I also have my own procession.

[00:42:02] And so all of the things made it so like before I went on to Survivor, I pretty much

[00:42:07] like I decided like I wasn't going to talk about it on the show.

[00:42:11] And that is a it's a it's a regret of mine because it definitely informed the way that

[00:42:15] I played the game, unfortunately, in a negative way.

[00:42:19] And it had influence while I was out there.

[00:42:21] But like, yeah, it was that process that you that you speak about where I was like,

[00:42:25] I have to I don't want I didn't want to at the time.

[00:42:28] This is my 25 year old mindset.

[00:42:30] I didn't want to complicate this already very complicated situation by bringing it on

[00:42:35] on TV.

[00:42:35] So, yeah, I didn't talk about it in I lost the game because now I just like I didn't

[00:42:40] talk about it, but it definitely would have helped to be authentic out there.

[00:42:43] I mean, like literally, like I feel like this was not shown enough on the show.

[00:42:47] Like Deshaun could have won Survivor 41 like that.

[00:42:50] Definitely wasn't it again?

[00:42:52] I don't think they heard you.

[00:42:53] Yeah, Deshaun could have won season 41.

[00:42:56] I mean, it's so true.

[00:42:57] You were like a dominant player in the game.

[00:42:59] You made choices.

[00:43:01] Some of them good, some of them bad, but making lots of choices, like probably more than I

[00:43:07] think anyone in the final three.

[00:43:08] You know what I mean?

[00:43:08] And I think we talked about this at Final Tribal was like Deshaun was doing everything.

[00:43:13] And then like whereas like Erica was more like the things she was doing, especially

[00:43:17] in the postmortem, they were all probably good.

[00:43:19] You know what I mean?

[00:43:20] They were all doing a lot more, like a lot more the whole time, you know?

[00:43:24] So anyway, there's definitely a world where Deshaun wins Survivor 41.

[00:43:28] That's for sure an outcome.

[00:43:29] And I really, OK, we're here.

[00:43:31] We're in the we're in the you playing the game.

[00:43:33] And I would I would really love to hear more of just like, OK, wow, this is like honestly,

[00:43:39] well, I knew this story, but like hearing it like laid out like this, like wow.

[00:43:44] It's like you're holding like both this huge self-discovery, this huge like relief release

[00:43:51] that you have come out to these people in your life.

[00:43:54] You're holding that.

[00:43:55] You also just like fundamentally changed your like relationship in your family.

[00:44:00] Like you just like told them this thing about you, you like that's happening.

[00:44:04] And now you enter like two weeks of quarantine in Fiji and like a week or more of silent

[00:44:11] pregame and then boom, boom, boom island and then like about to be perceived by millions

[00:44:17] of people like like, yeah.

[00:44:19] What did that feel like to you?

[00:44:21] What did that feel like in terms?

[00:44:22] I want to hear more about the gameplay element like.

[00:44:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:26] All that for sure.

[00:44:27] For sure.

[00:44:27] I think I think I think you were one of the first people I saw.

[00:44:32] So, OK, we quarantined in L.A., right?

[00:44:36] And then we went to the airport.

[00:44:38] Well, I even saw you.

[00:44:39] You were one of the people we were both at the Starbucks in the L.A..

[00:44:43] Remember, there was like a Starbucks in the L.A. hotel.

[00:44:47] Yeah, I was like and I remember I saw you.

[00:44:50] We all have our masks on.

[00:44:52] Everything's like deep, deep covid.

[00:44:53] And I'm like, I bet that guy's not a survivor to like I yeah, yeah.

[00:44:58] OK, so, yes, you were also one of the first people that I was like, that's yeah.

[00:45:02] Yeah.

[00:45:03] And then when I saw you in the line, we're like getting the passport stuff together.

[00:45:06] Like I looked at you and I'm just like, dang, like they look really, really freaking cool.

[00:45:10] I don't even know if I had seen the tattoo, but you you just look really cool.

[00:45:14] And then I look around the cast and everybody looks so authentic.

[00:45:16] And I realized in my mind, like there's this piece of me,

[00:45:18] obviously that I'm not going to be bringing on the show.

[00:45:20] And so I was thinking about it for a long time during the when we were in quarantine.

[00:45:25] And that's where the birth of DVZ came because pretty much I was thinking in my head, wow,

[00:45:31] all of these people in the cast are coming out.

[00:45:32] They're giving their authentic self like they're not really holding anything back.

[00:45:36] And I'm somebody who's coming out, giving half half of myself because I'm not ready to talk about it.

[00:45:41] So in my mind, I thought like the only way for me to like give producers like what they kind of

[00:45:48] probably were expecting was for me to like step up and as you said, just do a lot of shit.

[00:45:52] Like even if it's not the best, just do a lot of shit and be devious and be cutthroat,

[00:45:56] maybe play the game like I wouldn't have organically played it myself.

[00:45:59] But I needed to give them something to fill that void that I wasn't giving them.

[00:46:02] So that was that was something when I saw you guys,

[00:46:06] especially when I saw you because I'm like they are I know they are just like they're fire.

[00:46:10] They're going to just give all of themselves.

[00:46:12] And so, yeah, we're going to say, oh, no, no, no, no.

[00:46:15] I was just like, yeah, it makes me feel so sad that you were holding that like

[00:46:20] you wouldn't have been enough otherwise, you know, because like even like without

[00:46:24] knowing that, like you have such an amazing personality and so much to offer and like

[00:46:29] definitely didn't need to.

[00:46:31] I mean, I know I know your work through a lot of this stuff now, but just like

[00:46:34] even without that one piece, like you're a fucking awesome person.

[00:46:38] And like, yeah, I just I just feel sad for the version of you that that was felt that

[00:46:42] pressure, you know.

[00:46:44] And and I also want to say a real big moment for me.

[00:46:47] So, you know, I like I think the class, I feel like a theme in your story is like you

[00:46:51] never know what someone's going through, right?

[00:46:53] Like people are looking at you like that guy's got it all figured out.

[00:46:55] And meanwhile, inside, you've got a lot of other stuff going on, you know?

[00:46:58] And for me, I had been, you know, out for a year for a couple of years.

[00:47:02] I was definitely like I am going on Survivor to be queer and like show that like that's

[00:47:07] what I'm doing here.

[00:47:08] And I was also quite nervous, you know what I mean?

[00:47:10] I'm like, I don't know these people like I hope it's going to be OK.

[00:47:13] I saw I saw Jeannie and I'm like, OK, there's something, you know, we're not alone here,

[00:47:19] you know, like you really don't know.

[00:47:21] And I feel like it first came to pass on the day where we went to go take the photos.

[00:47:26] And it was like a couple of people would get dressed in their like their their clothes

[00:47:31] at a time and then go take the pictures.

[00:47:33] And I think it was like you and me and Liana were like one group to get changed.

[00:47:37] And I come out and I'm wearing actually this very shirt and my tie.

[00:47:42] And I was like kind of nervous.

[00:47:44] I was like, OK, this is a big like if people didn't know what was going on,

[00:47:47] like I'm coming out in a tie, you know?

[00:47:49] And you looked at me and just gave me like a giant smile and a thumbs up.

[00:47:54] And I was like, oh, hell yeah, it's going to be OK.

[00:47:56] I remember this.

[00:47:58] You just unlocked a memory that warmed my heart.

[00:48:01] Yeah.

[00:48:01] And it was it was a huge moment for me.

[00:48:04] This is cool.

[00:48:04] These people are cool.

[00:48:05] Like I like that guy.

[00:48:06] I should probably tell him all my secrets the first time I get to talk to him.

[00:48:11] So like for real, like I really think like, you know, like we had like these pregame vibes

[00:48:17] where I was like, this guy sees me and I like that, you know?

[00:48:21] No, so true.

[00:48:22] I definitely saw you and I was definitely inspired, like through and through.

[00:48:25] Like, can I can I say that for sure?

[00:48:28] Like, yeah.

[00:48:30] Well, yeah.

[00:48:31] OK, so you're in the pregame.

[00:48:32] You've invented devious D-rad.

[00:48:35] And then I'm ready to go and I'm ready to play.

[00:48:38] I think, OK, so to so I can like expedite a little bit because I know I'm talking about

[00:48:43] from a macro level, I think like survivor is like I like when I went into it,

[00:48:47] I knew that the social game was important, obviously,

[00:48:49] but I always thought the social game was important, like as it means to an end.

[00:48:52] Like I don't have trouble making friends at this point,

[00:48:55] mostly on a very superficial level, obviously.

[00:48:58] But I thought like the importance of the social game was to just get me further.

[00:49:02] And then hopefully when I got at the end,

[00:49:03] since I made all these superficial friends, they'll vote for me.

[00:49:05] Obviously, that's not the way to go.

[00:49:06] We see like with Kenzie recently or like with Jam Jam, with Marianne,

[00:49:10] all of these players who like wear themselves on themselves

[00:49:12] and they allow the other players in the game to really understand who they are.

[00:49:16] Like that's so like that human element of survivor,

[00:49:18] like is so important, even beyond like the superficial social bonds that you create.

[00:49:24] And so and so, yeah, that was super important on my tribe,

[00:49:27] specifically on Lulu. We never lost.

[00:49:30] So we spent so much of our time just talking about like our personal lives.

[00:49:35] Right. And obviously, as DVC, right.

[00:49:37] I was trying to make the time, fill the time of strategy,

[00:49:39] but there's not a whole lot you can do.

[00:49:40] And so I'm on a tribe with like Danny, who's married to his lovely wife, Kiki.

[00:49:45] Love them both down.

[00:49:46] And they're they're beautiful daughters, Zoe.

[00:49:48] And then Heather, who's married to Jay and she has her beautiful daughters.

[00:49:51] And then the series is married to Diana.

[00:49:53] And then and Sydney was in a relationship, too.

[00:49:56] So there was a lot of relationship talk during this.

[00:49:58] Yeah, yeah. Obviously, when you're getting to know somebody like you talk,

[00:50:01] like they talk about who they love, like even like everybody on the island

[00:50:05] wants to talk about the things that they love.

[00:50:07] And so there was a lot of talk about family and relationship.

[00:50:10] And every time it will come to me, they would ask, hey, how about you?

[00:50:12] And I obviously what can I say?

[00:50:14] So my my response was always, oh, you know, I'm just I'm dating school

[00:50:18] medical school so hard and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:50:21] Which is not like it's hard.

[00:50:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard, but it's not that hard, buddy.

[00:50:26] Like you're you're hiding something.

[00:50:28] Yeah, clearly. Yeah.

[00:50:30] So that was my response.

[00:50:31] And like it was it was just like little nuances like that

[00:50:33] that made it like tough to connect on a deeper level,

[00:50:35] like in the ways that I talk about with like Kinsey or Jam Jam or Maryam.

[00:50:38] Yeah, it's like like they're looking to me and there's there's a part of me

[00:50:42] that I just can't give them pretty much in any social bonds.

[00:50:45] And it kind of sucks, too, because a lot of them

[00:50:47] I came out to you and there's maybe some other people in the cast,

[00:50:50] but a lot of them maybe will find out that I'm queer listening to this podcast.

[00:50:54] Yeah. And like somebody like Danny, for example, who I like,

[00:50:57] I'm so glad I met that man.

[00:50:59] Like he he saw me at my lowest.

[00:51:01] We had a lot of arguments that they didn't show on on camera,

[00:51:04] but he never abandoned me.

[00:51:05] He always wrote for me.

[00:51:07] And this is a part of me that he never got to know.

[00:51:09] And so it's like that's a clear example of like, dang,

[00:51:12] I just wish the relationships that I made there

[00:51:14] that were maybe a little bit more superficial.

[00:51:16] Some of them, I just wish they were a bit deeper.

[00:51:18] And I wish I had the courage to to build a strong foundation

[00:51:21] based off of like who I was, because Danny gave me who he was like thoroughly.

[00:51:25] So, you know, it's it's so not too late.

[00:51:29] You know what I mean?

[00:51:30] Life is long.

[00:51:31] You and Danny, there's phones, there's computers.

[00:51:33] Like I know that connection is like so deep, you know, and I like so

[00:51:38] he doesn't know yet he's going to find out on this.

[00:51:41] He's going to find out on this.

[00:51:42] Yeah. Danny, Danny, if you're listening, give Deshaun a call.

[00:51:46] Let's make this happen.

[00:51:47] I mean, and I'll say the first pride when we were home after film

[00:51:51] between airing and filming, Danny and Kiki sent me and Ricard.

[00:51:57] I don't know if they also sent Jeannie Pride Month Oreos.

[00:52:00] I remember that.

[00:52:01] It was just like so cute and sweet and silly.

[00:52:04] And I'm just like, allies, let's go.

[00:52:06] You know, I'm like, oh, that. Yeah.

[00:52:10] Go ahead. Sorry.

[00:52:10] No, no, no.

[00:52:11] I was going to say, I think like, well, I won't even speak on that.

[00:52:14] But like, obviously he's he's cool about it.

[00:52:16] Everybody's cool about it.

[00:52:17] It's just a thing in your own head.

[00:52:19] It's just totally.

[00:52:19] And it's like I think it's like this is so exciting because it's like now.

[00:52:23] I mean, I know for our friendship, like when you told me it like allowed us to like

[00:52:28] really meet, you know, like reach a way new level of our friendship.

[00:52:31] And like, I'm so excited for you to have that with so many more people in your life.

[00:52:35] You know, like that's so special.

[00:52:37] That's so special.

[00:52:39] Yeah. And I feel like once also on the topic of our friendship,

[00:52:42] I feel like once I did come out to you, like you helped me in so many ways in terms of like

[00:52:46] not only like self-acceptance, like that was important, but like also like self-love and

[00:52:50] like self-validation and like appreciation for self.

[00:52:52] Like even like through our conversation, we've had many conversations over the last couple

[00:52:56] years, but even like through watching you and like how organic and honest you are about

[00:53:01] your journey, like it has been like just amazing to have you in my life.

[00:53:06] But those conversations that were really meaningful to get me here would not have

[00:53:09] happened if I didn't open up to you about being queer.

[00:53:12] So you're so right.

[00:53:12] Like, I think that this could be the start of meaningful relationships with more people.

[00:53:16] For sure.

[00:53:17] Exactly.

[00:53:17] And also just to say of like the regret of not being out on the show, you know, like

[00:53:21] so I have that similarly with my gender where it was like, honestly, like part, I really

[00:53:27] feel like partway through the premerge, I'm like doing all these confessionals about the

[00:53:32] Yasuo women versus the men.

[00:53:35] And it's like the women versus the men, the women versus the men, women versus the men.

[00:53:37] And I was like, oh, fuck, I'm not a woman.

[00:53:40] Like one problem.

[00:53:42] Yeah, there's one problem with that.

[00:53:44] And like, you know, watching the show, like it's a lot for me to watch it.

[00:53:48] And just like obviously everyone's using she her pronouns for me all the time I'm talking

[00:53:51] about with women.

[00:53:52] It's like no one's doing anything wrong.

[00:53:54] They're using the pronouns I told them to use, you know?

[00:53:56] And it's like part of me.

[00:53:58] I've done, you know, and I've gotten to like speak about this a lot in this podcast.

[00:54:02] Part of me is always like, damn, like it sucks that I didn't get to be that representation

[00:54:07] for other people.

[00:54:08] It sucks that like I didn't get to be that for myself, you know, watching it back and

[00:54:11] stuff.

[00:54:11] And I'm always met with and I want to pass this along to you.

[00:54:14] Like this is an authentic journey.

[00:54:16] Like it's actually real life for so many people that there's a part of your life where you're

[00:54:21] not out and there's a part of your life where you are out and like that people realize stuff

[00:54:25] about themselves later or people feel comfortable sharing stuff about themselves later.

[00:54:28] And like that's actually beautiful and special.

[00:54:31] And like I think it's going to be really, really meaningful for people who have had

[00:54:35] the experience of being closeted and then coming out later to like know this piece

[00:54:40] of you and get to like reflect back on, watch that story and be like, damn, I see a piece

[00:54:44] of myself in that guy who's doing everything and like, you know, really like, you know,

[00:54:49] doing a lot.

[00:54:50] And like, I just, I just really want to validate you that like this is all part of the thing.

[00:54:55] You know what I mean?

[00:54:55] This is all part of your survivor story.

[00:54:57] This is all part of your life story.

[00:54:59] You know what I mean?

[00:54:59] It's it doesn't finish just because the taping finished, you know?

[00:55:02] Yeah, that's so true.

[00:55:04] Thank you for saying that.

[00:55:05] That's that's something that I can take with me forever.

[00:55:07] And also to your point, not yet, right?

[00:55:10] Yeah, it's going to be bad guys for season 50.

[00:55:14] They're going to kill it.

[00:55:16] I mean, that would be special for me.

[00:55:17] And I actually I have that on my list of questions for you.

[00:55:20] What would it be like for you if season 50 calls your name and you get to like be this

[00:55:25] version of you?

[00:55:25] Like what would that feel like?

[00:55:28] It would feel very liberate.

[00:55:30] Honestly, even if I went out, I mean, I don't want to go first, but even if I went out like

[00:55:35] in premerge, like it would be so liberating to just like go out there from every lens,

[00:55:39] like from the lens of like my interactions with the producers out there who I love so

[00:55:43] much.

[00:55:43] But like for them to get to see me authentic and then for Jeff to get to see me authentic

[00:55:47] and then whoever I'm playing with and then ultimately the audience, like it wouldn't

[00:55:51] like I feel like the win would be to be able to go back out there and do what I feel like

[00:55:56] in my heart I should have done the first time.

[00:55:58] And so, yeah, I think it would just be it would be awesome.

[00:56:01] I don't know how do you do?

[00:56:03] How would you do things?

[00:56:04] Oh, my God.

[00:56:04] Yeah.

[00:56:05] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:56:06] Absolutely.

[00:56:06] It would be so special.

[00:56:08] I mean, I would be like not wearing a shirt, you know what I mean?

[00:56:11] Which is like insane.

[00:56:12] Like now that I've had surgery, you know, like it's it's wild.

[00:56:16] And like I honestly I feel the same way.

[00:56:18] It's like, please don't let me be the first one out.

[00:56:20] But even if I did like it was just absolutely sick to be on there.

[00:56:24] And like I just I mean, I really like truly have always felt like your story was not fully

[00:56:30] told on the show.

[00:56:31] Like obviously you're in it a lot, but like you're just you were a hard person to describe,

[00:56:35] like, you know, because you're like, like, and this is why and I have to say, like, it's

[00:56:40] there's a piece that's selfishly valid in for me where I was like, why did I always get

[00:56:44] tricked by Deshaun?

[00:56:45] And it's like, because there's two versions of him.

[00:56:47] There's the one that like, you know, that like we connect so well.

[00:56:51] And then there's the one that's like making moves.

[00:56:53] And I'm like, what the fuck?

[00:56:53] Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:55] That's so funny.

[00:56:57] Yeah.

[00:56:58] Yeah, dude.

[00:56:58] But like seriously, seriously.

[00:56:59] And like, I don't know, I think I think that would be absolutely special.

[00:57:02] And like I mean, you have it all the gameplay, the new story.

[00:57:06] It's like, Jeff, pick up the phone, you know, like let's get a.

[00:57:09] Are you listening?

[00:57:11] Yeah, they bring up a good point.

[00:57:13] I don't know.

[00:57:14] I just thank you so much.

[00:57:15] I think the same for you.

[00:57:16] I think it would be awesome.

[00:57:17] We're both out there at the same time again.

[00:57:19] That would be so cool.

[00:57:20] That would be so good.

[00:57:21] We're still freaking digging.

[00:57:23] And if anyone on the future cast with us is listening,

[00:57:26] we're not really this good friends.

[00:57:28] It's fine.

[00:57:29] We'll betray each other.

[00:57:30] Don't even worry about it.

[00:57:31] We're just we're really like fighting together this interview.

[00:57:33] Yeah, we're just really good at the podcast.

[00:57:37] Yeah, that's all.

[00:57:38] But no, I do have something I want to share, though, too,

[00:57:40] because this was a moment and then we can be done with Survivor.

[00:57:43] But this was in regards to a moment that I had where I actually almost came out on the show.

[00:57:48] This actually may be news to you because I don't think I ever shared this with you.

[00:57:51] But it was with it was in regards to interaction I had with Shannon,

[00:57:55] of all people who was somebody who obviously people think like we just don't get along

[00:57:59] like to two people, just personalities.

[00:58:01] I didn't mention that's true gameplay wise, but we had a lot of decent human moments.

[00:58:05] And this is one of them.

[00:58:06] So Shannon and Danny used to always go to the beach and, like,

[00:58:09] I think do like a Bible study sort of thing without the Bible.

[00:58:12] And obviously I was like, you know, in my process with God itself.

[00:58:15] And so I remember going out there one day, I finally got to sit in on one.

[00:58:19] And Shannon was saying something along the lines of like,

[00:58:23] I don't remember exactly, but it was pretty much saying, like,

[00:58:25] God accepts you, God accepts all pretty much.

[00:58:27] And based off of where I was in my process, in my relationship with God,

[00:58:31] like I just started welling up crying because I'm like,

[00:58:34] I have so many questions still for God.

[00:58:36] And I wasn't being honest about what was on the show.

[00:58:38] So I had to get up really quick and we're still playing a game.

[00:58:40] So I wanted to make I didn't want to make it a moment.

[00:58:43] And so I tried to get up and leave quickly.

[00:58:45] And she noticed me because she's obviously very perceptive.

[00:58:48] And she came after me and she gave me a hug.

[00:58:49] And she said she wanted she asked me, like, what was that about?

[00:58:52] I was the emotion you're feeling.

[00:58:53] And in that moment, I really, really wanted to have the discussion with her

[00:58:56] because it was really on my heart.

[00:58:58] But I couldn't, obviously, and I had to make a decision.

[00:59:01] Like, do I break everything that I said I was going to do in this moment

[00:59:05] that feels really real and feels really organic?

[00:59:06] Or do I just say we can talk about it later?

[00:59:09] And I ended up telling her, like, yeah, we can just talk about it after.

[00:59:12] She gave me a hug and she gave me support in that moment.

[00:59:14] And we were always supposed to talk about it.

[00:59:16] And so unfortunately, we never got the chance.

[00:59:18] But Shannon, if you're listening, that's what that moment was about.

[00:59:21] And so and so, yeah, yeah, that was that was really impactful.

[00:59:24] And then after the moment, I go to confessional and producers are like,

[00:59:27] what was that about?

[00:59:29] And of course, I told Jesse that I was queer,

[00:59:31] but I never went back to tell Jesse that I wasn't going to be talking

[00:59:33] about my queerness on the show once I decided a couple of days before we flew out.

[00:59:37] So I'm sure producers were even like, maybe he's ready to talk about it.

[00:59:40] And again, I just wasn't.

[00:59:41] So I think that's why a lot of there were a lot of holes in my character story,

[00:59:46] as you mentioned, because like I just moments like that,

[00:59:49] like would have really been impactful to see.

[00:59:51] But I just I couldn't do it.

[00:59:52] I couldn't cross the threshold.

[00:59:53] But it's OK. It's OK.

[00:59:55] Yeah, it is.

[00:59:55] But that also sounds like really tough.

[00:59:58] Like, I mean, it's it's not a it's not a joke.

[01:00:00] Like Survivor strips you down like you're starving.

[01:00:03] You're like like Tiff and I always laugh.

[01:00:05] Like how much time we spent on our like what outfits are we going to wear?

[01:00:08] And then like 12 hours in, we're like half naked, dirty.

[01:00:12] You know, like everything you thought you would care about.

[01:00:14] You can't care about it anymore.

[01:00:16] Yeah.

[01:00:16] You know, like and honestly, like to be able to to to be holding such a big

[01:00:24] emotional thing and a secret and like a big piece of yourself just sounds so hard.

[01:00:30] Like in a game that's already so hard that you went all the way to the end of like

[01:00:34] that is like a strength, you know, that is like just immense.

[01:00:39] Like that is hard as hell.

[01:00:41] And like to be and also to be holding that like as you're watching the show back

[01:00:44] and like all this stuff like that's a lot.

[01:00:46] It's a lot. It's a lot.

[01:00:47] And I'm glad you were able to like have a connective moment in some way there.

[01:00:51] And like it's sad that it like didn't quite get to be there.

[01:00:54] But that sounds beautiful.

[01:00:55] Like it really does.

[01:00:56] Yeah, for sure.

[01:00:57] Yeah, it was it was a very meaningful moment.

[01:00:59] It's one of the moments on the island that sticks out the most.

[01:01:02] Obviously, a lot of shit happened.

[01:01:03] But since that was a very real moment, like it's the real stuff that like penetrates.

[01:01:07] I'm sure you can agree to it, too.

[01:01:08] I'm sure you had some very human moments with people.

[01:01:11] Absolutely.

[01:01:12] Even if it wasn't shown that you'll never, ever, ever forget.

[01:01:14] So survivors, do you believe in it?

[01:01:17] Don't just think you're going to go out there and play people like you're going to

[01:01:19] you're going to get attached to humans and want to reveal yourself to humans

[01:01:23] and connect with humans because that's what humans do.

[01:01:25] And so, yeah.

[01:01:27] Yeah. And the people they cast in Survivor, you know, it's like

[01:01:31] most people are really, really awesome.

[01:01:33] And that's how they ended up on Survivor.

[01:01:35] And like it is.

[01:01:37] Yeah, it's corny as hell, but it's like it is a cross section of life.

[01:01:41] You know what I mean?

[01:01:41] And like even more so now with like the new era casting and everything, like

[01:01:45] it's actually a place where you get to like meet all sorts of people that you wouldn't

[01:01:49] normally meet perspectives you wouldn't normally get.

[01:01:51] And like, yeah, yeah.

[01:01:53] And I'm so glad for you that you're able to have also this like religious moment

[01:01:57] or spiritual moment out there.

[01:01:58] And like, I don't know if you've mentioned your spiritual journey like a bunch.

[01:02:02] I don't know if there's any more you want to share about that of like

[01:02:05] where you're at now with it or what?

[01:02:07] Yeah.

[01:02:08] Thank you for asking.

[01:02:10] For sure.

[01:02:10] I think that was the biggest thing is like I'm Christian, obviously, and Christianity has

[01:02:16] a history of homophobia a little bit like the people in the religion.

[01:02:19] And so a lot of the times it was hard for me to reconcile it.

[01:02:22] The day I came out, I feel like God gave me the push.

[01:02:25] But there were still questions like I was saying about that.

[01:02:28] I have forgotten in terms of like, what was it all for?

[01:02:30] Like, what was all the shame, all the nights that I was alone and all the sadness, all

[01:02:33] that stuff.

[01:02:33] And so I didn't quite understand that.

[01:02:35] And that was a part of my percent like my process of after I came out, there were still

[01:02:39] things I had to figure out.

[01:02:40] And so since then, I think the number one thing that I'll say, and I'm pretty sure there's

[01:02:44] people who are listening to your podcast who might be queer or questioning and they're

[01:02:48] also Christian.

[01:02:49] The biggest thing for me was when I finally like came to God as a human instead of coming

[01:02:54] to God as a human who was queer or a human who was gay.

[01:02:58] I eliminated like the blinder of operating through my quote unquote like sin when I was

[01:03:02] interacting with God, because before there was no way that I could even cry or pray to

[01:03:07] God or anything without that coming up.

[01:03:09] And then when I finally just approached God as a human, I got to receive God's love in

[01:03:14] my heart.

[01:03:15] And then I started to educate myself more.

[01:03:17] And I started to realize that like words that are used to, you know, you know, drive homophobia

[01:03:23] in Christianity, like the homo, like a homosexual in the Bible wasn't added to like 1946.

[01:03:28] And so these are that's a breadcrumb if you're listening and you're curious about that, definitely

[01:03:32] go look that up.

[01:03:33] I'm not going to get into it too much, but just like in the translations and knowing

[01:03:37] that the men who translated the Bible were literally people just like you and me, like

[01:03:40] they're no better than us.

[01:03:41] Right.

[01:03:42] And so and then knowing the context of when the Bible was written versus what we consider

[01:03:45] as human sexuality now, all of those things like it equipped me with educating myself

[01:03:50] once I went to God as myself.

[01:03:51] And I feel like God revealed to me that, like, no, not only like, well, I honor who you are,

[01:03:56] but I'm going to use you exactly as you are.

[01:03:58] And the purpose of your pain was for you to get to the space where you are now to show

[01:04:03] to be an example to people who might be in a similar situation now, like you don't have

[01:04:07] to change.

[01:04:08] You can be exactly who you are.

[01:04:09] I'm going to honor that.

[01:04:10] I'm going to use you.

[01:04:11] And so, yeah, I just felt like the pain, the purpose of the pain was for me to be able

[01:04:16] to be somebody who can show that you can have both God's love and still operate in your

[01:04:21] full authenticity.

[01:04:22] And so but that took me going to God just as a human, just as myself, like take the

[01:04:27] queerness out of it, take the gayness out of it, whatever, and just go to God and see

[01:04:31] what he says and what he speaks into your heart.

[01:04:33] And so in regards to the Bible and all of the mistranslations and all of the words added

[01:04:37] and stuff like for me, another conclusion I arrived at was like the Bible for me, as much

[01:04:43] as it has a lot of great stuff, it can't be the infallible word of God because it's been

[01:04:47] handled by so many humans and it's been mistranslated so many times.

[01:04:50] So that infallible word of God that these queer questioning Christians might be looking

[01:04:54] for is the word that he speaks like directly into your heart, into your mind when you pray

[01:04:59] to him or whatever God that you pray to.

[01:05:03] It's located there and you get that through meditation, through prayer, through spending

[01:05:07] time with God.

[01:05:08] And so I just encourage everybody to not give up on one thing for the other.

[01:05:11] You can be Christian.

[01:05:13] You can be any religion that you connect with and also queer.

[01:05:17] And you can honor yourself in both ways.

[01:05:20] And so that was a big thing.

[01:05:22] And I officially got to the space where I am now, where I feel like I have the best

[01:05:26] relationship with God and everything in life is going really, really great.

[01:05:29] So I encourage people to explore their authenticity in that way and see how your life takes off.

[01:05:37] Damn, that's so beautiful, man.

[01:05:39] I'm so, so, so happy for you to go on that journey.

[01:05:43] Like what you just shared, like I know for sure that there are people listening to this

[01:05:47] that needed to hear that, like for sure.

[01:05:50] And that's beautiful as hell.

[01:05:52] And like, you know, you talked about, you know, what was why did I have to go on this

[01:05:56] journey?

[01:05:56] And like you're paying it forward to so many people right now, like everything you're doing.

[01:06:02] Like I'm just so much dude, like I've really never heard anyone talk about that like that.

[01:06:08] And so I'm going to I'm going to take that with me and like, yeah, I haven't had the same

[01:06:13] struggle with with I'm Jewish.

[01:06:15] I have like it's like not quite as I mean, in some sects of Judaism, it probably is more

[01:06:20] of a thing.

[01:06:20] But for me, that wasn't a huge part of the struggle.

[01:06:24] But it definitely like in general, the concept of humans wrote down all the words that we're

[01:06:30] reading, you know what I mean?

[01:06:32] Like, yeah.

[01:06:34] So like that concept of like the truth of your religion, your God, whatever it is, is

[01:06:40] in you and your heart.

[01:06:41] And that's where it's going to matter.

[01:06:43] And that's where it's like coming from.

[01:06:44] And that's where you feel it.

[01:06:45] Like that's that divine connection makes so much sense and like is is really beautiful.

[01:06:50] That's so real.

[01:06:51] That is so real.

[01:06:52] We have to have more talks like this.

[01:06:53] I know.

[01:06:54] I know.

[01:06:55] So great.

[01:06:56] Honestly, until you said I forgot about Shands, the like Bible study hour.

[01:07:01] I went to one time also and like it was really beautiful and special.

[01:07:05] I know Nasir was there, too.

[01:07:06] And he's Muslim and is special as hell, like as a thing.

[01:07:10] And she is mafia and pastor.

[01:07:13] You know, the pastor was there, too.

[01:07:16] Of course.

[01:07:16] Of course.

[01:07:17] That's beautiful.

[01:07:18] This is such a beautiful conversation.

[01:07:21] OK, I have two more questions for you.

[01:07:23] OK, all right.

[01:07:24] Let's do it.

[01:07:24] OK.

[01:07:25] And well, I have three because the third will be, is there anything else that you want to

[01:07:28] share?

[01:07:29] OK, OK.

[01:07:30] OK, I'm sure.

[01:07:31] OK, go ahead.

[01:07:33] Number one.

[01:07:34] Are the DMs open?

[01:07:36] Are we single?

[01:07:37] Are we looking?

[01:07:38] Are people that for the first time are like, oh, shit, this is what is on my team?

[01:07:44] Like what's going on here?

[01:07:45] That's so hilarious.

[01:07:47] OK, so you would know of all people, the DMs have been open for so, so long.

[01:07:53] You've been like, what the hell is going on?

[01:07:54] Like, I've been like, are you sending messages?

[01:07:58] Are you trying?

[01:07:59] Are you like, well, it's probably no.

[01:08:01] But but there's been new leads.

[01:08:03] So I met a person.

[01:08:04] I moved to Philadelphia recently and I met a person is still obviously very, very new.

[01:08:08] But this is like the first person I've ever met that it feels like I have like a friend

[01:08:13] and a lover to like, oh, that's so sweet.

[01:08:16] Well, yeah, it's really great, but it's still so new.

[01:08:18] So I want to say I want to say too much.

[01:08:20] I'll just say out of respect for wherever the situation may go, my DMs are like kind of

[01:08:26] close right now.

[01:08:27] So I'll say they're close.

[01:08:28] They're close, but it's like you might read them, you know what I mean?

[01:08:32] Don't expect a response.

[01:08:35] Dude, I'm so happy for you.

[01:08:37] And no matter what happens with this relationship, like getting that feeling, I know is something

[01:08:41] you have like, yeah, that you've been craving and like now you know what it feels like.

[01:08:45] And like, I hope this thing's the thing.

[01:08:47] But if not, it's going to lead you to the next thing.

[01:08:49] So that's I love that.

[01:08:51] I love that.

[01:08:51] Fingers crossed.

[01:08:52] I think you would really like him to hopefully, you know, if it works out, you'll meet him

[01:08:55] one day.

[01:08:55] Yeah.

[01:08:55] Hell yeah.

[01:08:56] Hell yeah.

[01:08:57] OK, this is actually related to question two, because question two is what are you doing

[01:09:02] this Pride month?

[01:09:03] And part sub A of that is are you going to come to New York and hang out with me when

[01:09:07] I'm in New York for Pride at the end of June?

[01:09:10] But you can answer the first part first.

[01:09:12] Part two is am I going to come hang out with you?

[01:09:15] Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:16] And I'm going to answer that first.

[01:09:18] Freaking course.

[01:09:19] I'm going to go.

[01:09:19] Hopefully.

[01:09:20] I'm right here.

[01:09:20] So, yeah, I'm definitely going to I'm definitely going to come see you.

[01:09:23] And in terms of what I'm going to do for Pride, I don't really know.

[01:09:25] Like this is like this is a celebration in a way like yes, this is.

[01:09:30] But to be honest, like at my core, like I'm even like queer pride out of it.

[01:09:35] Like I've never been like a parade guy either.

[01:09:37] So I don't know if like it's something I want to like do, but I feel like you have to experience

[01:09:41] it once.

[01:09:42] So I have some queer friends out here now in Philadelphia.

[01:09:45] And so I'm probably going to tag along to one of the events at some point this month.

[01:09:50] But like I'm just naturally like a homebody more so.

[01:09:52] So like, I don't know, like I got to figure out a creative way to celebrate Pride.

[01:09:56] And maybe it'll just be like a social media posting or maybe this can be one.

[01:10:00] Or when I go and see you, maybe that can be the official.

[01:10:03] Oh, yeah.

[01:10:04] Dude.

[01:10:05] And it's like, that's so right.

[01:10:06] It's like you got to go to the parade once you got to experience that.

[01:10:09] But it's like mostly the parade kind of sucks.

[01:10:11] You know what I mean?

[01:10:12] Like, like, like, like, like, especially these days in so many cities, it's also like the

[01:10:18] floats are like Citibank and AT&T.

[01:10:22] You know what I mean?

[01:10:23] So like, I think I end up here.

[01:10:24] Yeah, exactly.

[01:10:25] Exactly.

[01:10:26] So yeah, you'll find I feel like Philly is a great place for you and you're going to find

[01:10:31] yeah, you're going to find the right stuff that feels fun.

[01:10:33] And yeah, we'll see.

[01:10:34] Hopefully they had a parade this weekend and I seen like video footage of it and it looked

[01:10:38] a little rough.

[01:10:39] There was some fighting going on.

[01:10:41] Oh, wow.

[01:10:41] So I don't know if I want any parts of that.

[01:10:43] Yeah, right.

[01:10:44] We'll see.

[01:10:46] Yeah, my favorite of the New York Pride circuit is which I live in Boston, but I like to go

[01:10:51] to New York Pride.

[01:10:52] There's a day where everyone goes to Reese Beach and it's just like queers at the beach

[01:10:56] and it's just chill.

[01:10:57] And I like that with me.

[01:10:59] So and I've been getting my body right, too.

[01:11:01] So I guess Sean is looking good.

[01:11:05] People, if you have not seen the post, Sean is looking good.

[01:11:11] Thank you so much.

[01:11:13] Yeah.

[01:11:13] OK, so we've I just want to first of all, like I'm going to ask you if there's anything

[01:11:18] else you want to share.

[01:11:19] But I also just want to start by just saying, like, thank you so much for doing this.

[01:11:23] Like I and like like you said, like I ask you every year and this was the right time,

[01:11:28] you know, and I just feel like it was so beautiful.

[01:11:30] And like this interview, I know is going to mean a lot to a lot of people and it means

[01:11:34] a lot to me.

[01:11:35] And I'm just like so happy for you and like really glad we got to do this.

[01:11:40] And you're just people did not get to see it.

[01:11:43] Look how wonderful this human is.

[01:11:44] You know what I mean?

[01:11:45] You got peace, you got glimpses of it on the show, but like you're just a special person

[01:11:49] and sharing your story like this is so special.

[01:11:51] And like, yes, hell yeah.

[01:11:53] Thank you for doing this.

[01:11:54] Thank you so much.

[01:11:55] And I have to return the hype because, you know, that's just what we do.

[01:11:58] Thank you so much for being who you are and offering me like the support, the encouragement,

[01:12:03] the insight, like everything that you are like has been so impactful for my journey

[01:12:08] in so many ways.

[01:12:09] And then just the fact that like you offer great friendship and like we have a great

[01:12:13] time when we hang out and people don't know we went to what concert did we go to?

[01:12:16] I want to chance the rapper.

[01:12:17] Chance the rapper concert.

[01:12:19] That was so fun.

[01:12:20] Yeah, so it's just like those moments where it's like I really made a friend, like a genuine

[01:12:25] friend from this experience.

[01:12:26] And I couldn't thank you enough.

[01:12:29] So just just thank you.

[01:12:30] Despite all the shit that we went through on that island, we're still connected.

[01:12:34] It means a ton.

[01:12:35] So thank you for having me.

[01:12:37] Absolutely, dude.

[01:12:38] I love you.

[01:12:39] And is there anything else you want to share with the listeners?

[01:12:42] We got it.

[01:12:43] OK, we got it.

[01:12:43] No more.

[01:12:44] Yeah.

[01:12:44] All right.

[01:12:45] Well, you heard it here first.

[01:12:47] Deshaun is the best.

[01:12:48] Truth bombs coming at you with joy.

[01:12:53] We've got it all.

[01:12:54] And yeah, thank you all for listening.

[01:12:56] And yeah, pass it back to Matt and Grace.

[01:13:00] Peace.

[01:13:02] I'm Grace Leder.

[01:13:03] I use she her pronouns.

[01:13:04] You can follow me on social media at high from Grace and make sure you buy a buff from

[01:13:08] Rob's website dot com slash pride.

[01:13:11] Yes, and I am Matt Scott.

[01:13:13] I use he him pronouns.

[01:13:14] You could follow me on social media at Matt Scott GW and you could get a pride has spoken

[01:13:21] shirt at Rob has a website dot com slash store.

[01:13:25] And I'm Evie.

[01:13:26] You go to I use they them pronouns.

[01:13:28] You can find me at on Instagram at Evie Jag and on Twitter at Evie.

[01:13:32] You go to.

[01:13:33] And as a reminder, all the proceeds from both the shirt and the buff will go to point of

[01:13:37] pride.

[01:13:37] Please buy a product today.

[01:13:40] This was the pride has spoken.

[01:13:45] It's so bad.

[01:13:46] I just spoke and we did it.

[01:13:48] We did.

[01:13:50] Just for a record, can we just do it like one?

[01:13:52] Just sure.

[01:13:53] Just say that last.

[01:13:55] Yeah, I know.

[01:13:56] One more time.

[01:13:56] I don't know why I'm making us do this.

[01:13:58] No, it's good.

[01:14:00] This was the pride has spoken.

[01:14:05] Matt, you say it so slow.

[01:14:07] Wait, wait, wait.

[01:14:08] One more time.

[01:14:10] This was the pride has spoken.

[01:14:14] It's my way.

[01:14:15] One more.

[01:14:16] I'm starting to guess this was the pride has spoken.

[01:14:24] Leave all these leave them all in.

[01:14:27] Yeah.

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