Survivor Global: On Strong Players | Season 48 Episode 8 with Thoriso M-Afrika

[00:00:07] Survivor is saved, Survivor New Zealand, Survivor, Survivor, Survivors, 21 South African, 12 ordinary Australians, 1 million pounds, 1 million euros, 1 million euros, 1 million euros, 1 million euros, Tribal Spokes, Tribal Spokes, Tribal Spokes, The adventure of a lifeblood.

[00:00:38] Hello everyone and welcome to RHAP's coverage for Survivor Global for Survivor 48. I'm your host Shannon Guss here to discuss episode 8, Strong Person Alliance and what they are entitled to as strong people. It is their time. It has never been their time. Not sure if you're aware of that. And to talk about it, I have someone who's also very pro-strong people. I know we're going to have a lot to say very, very positively about this whole line of thinking on this podcast. It is the great Teresa from Survivor South Africa. Teresa, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Shannon.

[00:01:08] Yes, are you loving the Strong Person Alliance just half as much as I am? I have no idea. I mean, I've never seen it on any Survivor episode. Yeah, well they never do well. They've never done well. No strong person has ever done well. You know, it's so hard being strong because you stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then, and then, but then we'll talk about it. Then, and then when you do stick out sometimes and you get voted out, then Jeff's like, I don't like that. And then Jeff starts changing the rules of the game for the strong people.

[00:01:35] And that's why they are marginalized. But that's what's happening. Teresa, how are you? How are you? You binged the whole season to be here. I appreciate that. So I'm so just for the, just behind the scenes for the listeners. Teresa, I was like joining on the podcast. She was like, great. I need to be able to see the episodes. I'm like, oh, you haven't watched the episodes. I'm like, here it is. I went to sleep. I sent it to her. I went to sleep. I woke up. She's like, I've finished the season. And I was like, I'm so impressed and concerned for you. But she, and she is here. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:03] I think watching week by week is one of the most frustrating things. I've actually now picked it up with a lot of binge watching on Disney or Netflix. But I even, I've now come to realize I even prefer it to Survivor. No. You just get through it. It's not sold on the idea. No, television is out the window for me.

[00:02:26] I needed a week between each pre-merge episode, definitely to, to, because the pre-merge was crazy. Like that definitely needed a week between every episode to like decompress it. But yeah, I mean, the last three weeks probably could have been a binge, but we'll do the best that we can with it today. So I think the last three episodes were the ones that I repeat watched, just to get a sense of how

[00:02:52] it led into everything. It's quite, I think for me, the craziest thing about it was how predictable those votes actually were. And that even with, with this one, it's almost like, I mean, obviously we'll discuss what led to Chrissy's downfall, but it's, it's so frustrating. I am Chrissy as the viewer, because you can see how everything is playing out.

[00:03:19] And for, for whatever reason, people are holding on, not wanting to make a move, um, or not maybe in the space where they're thinking about the individual game yet, which is bizarre, absolutely bizarre. Yeah. And, and I think, like, like I said, before we started recording for me, the most frustrating thing is that it's so clear for the guys that are in the bottom.

[00:03:46] Have we ever seen those, that they know they're in the bottom, but are actively propping up the guys leading the votes, yet they have the numbers to do otherwise. It's, it's a very strange little setup. Yeah. Well, the people at the bottom don't really have the numbers. I think that's the issue is that they do need like members of the strong five. And I think that that is an issue for them. And Chrissy certainly is beating the drum the same way the audience is. Now I can scream at my TV.

[00:04:14] I don't think she should be yelling about it at a traffic council. She was, she was out the door here. That's fine. But like the last traffic council, I was like, now you, you put a target on yourself and she seemed to, you know, leapfrog Mitch as a target there. And I definitely don't condone from a strategy perspective from a, from a personal perspective, I'd love to start at the top, at the end with this kind of fight between David and Chrissy, because I don't know, because I've just been thinking about it for like two days and no, I just, can I do the rant?

[00:04:43] Can we, and then can we talk about David? I don't think David has seen enough Survivor to be commenting on the meta of how strong people fare in Survivor. But in US Survivor, actually the system has progressively helped strong men because Jeff even said recently, he thinks that, you know, men are better characters or that's what he thinks has happened through, through the show. So yeah, at the point where like even Terry Deese loses now it's the final three, we have fire. There are all these mechanisms in the game to help strong men.

[00:05:11] And I mean, in this episode alone, the challenge losers all went to compete for their vote. And the challenge winners got reward and an immunity and an advantage for Eva. So in this very episode, you can see how the game does and the system does help strong men. Now, what has gone against strong men who have had no shortage of success in Survivor history, six male winners in a row, a lot of them alpha men, many, many alpha male winners through the show, as David is saying this to Christie, who would be the oldest woman to win the game by 14 years,

[00:05:41] if she wants, in terms of the demographic that Survivor is hard for. But what happened was in the new era, they had a diversity initiative. They cast different types of people who, A, saw the trend and were like, let's not do that. And who value different things in the game. Strong men have still made it to the end, but they haven't won because jurors haven't valued that as much, have wanted to buck that trend. Alliances have maybe formed differently, even though strong men have done well and have gotten very, very far and even to the end. They haven't won.

[00:06:07] Now, what happens in Survivor, and I've seen it many, many times, if you ever get to a point in history where four women have won the game over two men in the last, what they've seen at six seasons, at the end, we thought this was on Australian Survivor Blood vs Water, which should be fair. Australian Survivor, I think, does actually help parabolic women in its structure. But then Blood vs Water, they were like, we're taking it back. And they made a male align. And in this season as well, it's like four to two. I think there were six male winners in a row before this, but it's fine. They're like, we're taking our time back.

[00:06:33] And like, for the record, David is entitled, of course, not just entitled to strategically have meat shields. He didn't invent that strategy. It's a good strategy. He's not only entitled to do it, he should do it. He'd be a target. Otherwise, it makes a lot of strategic sense for him, for sure. But don't come in here and act like you are marginalized or that you have some sort of victim complex or that the system is against you. The system still helps you. And then for a second, for five fricking minutes, someone tried to buck that trend

[00:07:00] and you're bucking it back, which is fine. But it's been five minutes that we haven't been, that strong men haven't necessarily been on top. And it's fine. You should buck against it, sure. But don't act like the victim. Okay. I think that's it. And the thing, the reason it annoys me is because it kind of reminds me of real life, right? Like the system helps one type of person. And then people are like, no, maybe we should make like, we should have like more equality. And then other people are like, no, it's like, well, it's been five minutes or the system's even changed. And it still even like benefits you. Okay.

[00:07:27] I think I'm done on that, but that's what I've had in my head for two days. And I feel a lot better now. Thank you so much for it. Thanks, Shannon. I'm fascinated by it because I, you know, I've always thought about the idea around what the moral compass or the moral values of a particular season. Oh, and, and, and that's, and that's where I think, um, someone like Joe, who sort of is the

[00:07:56] moral compass of, who's sort of taken that role in terms of determining what the values are of the tribe as a whole. And kind of you, you have obviously for people like, like David and Kyle, get on the bandwagon and it, it helps because if you're strong, it's in your favor to be thinking in that particular way. But obviously for people like your Chrissies, your Camillas, it's like,

[00:08:21] what the heck? Of course not. This is not what we value in Survivor, but how do you begin to revisit the values that the, the rest of the tribe have and have just assumed, you know, sort of from the, the dominant players or the dominant characters and have taken that as sort of a lead. And I think

[00:08:44] part of that is, and, and, and this is why for me, I almost initially up until this episode, I was wondering if, if David genuinely believes this, that he's a victim, um, which by the end of this tribal council, it seemed like he actually did. I mean, he shouldn't say it regardless. So I think he definitely believe it. He doesn't even believe it. That was my thing. That was my thing. Whereas, whereas you get other players, you,

[00:09:12] you can give them the benefit of the doubt that, okay, we can align with this because if, if these are the values of the tribe, we're not going anywhere. The idea is they want to see the strongest people there. And if you have a jury of people are not necessarily the strongest and you have two or three strong people out there, then you can know how to play what their values are out of that.

[00:09:39] Um, so it's, it's, it's a very, it's, it's fascinating. I think for me, it's always the most interesting thing about Survivor is how the tribe comes to a set of what their values are and what they choose to, to emphasize is most important within the game. And, and I think in that regard, David's been lucky because of the kind of guys that he's actually landed up with. Um, but because he articulates

[00:10:07] it in that way, he's, he's not, he's not palatable. Um, both to viewers and I imagine to the guys sitting on the jury. Um, yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine a situation where, where he is there at the end and people would want to vote for him. Yeah. I think, I think Pooja had a great tweet that was like, I don't care who goes home tonight. Like I just watched David lose $1 million for the reason of,

[00:10:33] there is no reason for you to be talking to Chrissy like that as you send her to the jury in a unanimous vote where she clearly knows she's going. I mean, you haven't blindsided her well enough for her not to spiral. Um, so that's the first thing. And like, even if you, something you believe, which I think I've now ranted about why is wrong, but even if you think it's right, why are you arguing with her about it? And there was, she said, like, he's like, well, it's finally our time. Like we're taking it back. And why are you upset? She's like, I'm on this season. Like, even if it was true,

[00:11:03] like, even if strong men are just like outwardly marginalized in Survivor, this is the first time that they're like have rallied for the cause. Like Chrissy's still allowed to be upset that her game is folded to that. It's like he felt that she should lie down for it because the cause is like bigger than the game. It's like, we're finally doing it. It's like your cause is strong men, David. And you're saying it to again, a woman who would be 14 years older than the oldest women in US Survivor history. Like it's very, very frustrating. Like just generally, but also strategically,

[00:11:32] why are you doing that? Like, you don't have to say everything that pops into your head. Um, and there's no reason for him to fight with the juror who at that point should be the person who's always right. And he's like, well, Chrissy's getting upset. It's like a couple of people Well, Chrissy as well, should be fair. Chrissy did say it, but at the point where Chrissy's clearly going home, she's going to the jury. So he's like, she's getting upset. It's like, the balance of power is going to shift and maybe David has not seen how the jury plays out. I know

[00:11:56] he hasn't seen a lot of Survivor, but is that like, why? I get a sense of that, that he just hasn't watched enough Survivor, which is mind blowing to me. Um, yeah, I mean, I suppose we were cast in the COVID period, so we could catch up literally on everything before we eventually went out. But it's, you do get a sense that he just hasn't seen enough of the show.

[00:12:25] Well, he thinks he can comment that like, again, strong men are marginalized. I think he watched 45, maybe watched Austin lose to Dean and was like, enough is enough. Um, and doesn't understand like the matter of how we got here. But like from Chrissy's perspective, it's been all loyalty to David. Like Chrissy and David are both Siva. So from Chrissy's perspective, Chrissy is not just Siva. Chrissy is so Siva strong that at a point in the pre-merge, we talked about this 2-1-1 prisoner's dilemma where she technically should have all the power. She said in her ex interviews, she wanted

[00:12:54] Bianca gone, despite as we saw having a good relationship with Bianca over Say, who she had a bad relationship with. She wanted Bianca gone to take out a laggy because she was so Siva strong. She left herself with no other options. She was left with these two Vulu members who also didn't know anyone else who are now out of the game. Um, and she put herself literally on an island instead of trying to work across the aisle with Bianca for Siva. In a Siva 4 that was David, Carl Camilla and Chrissy. And David is clearly flipped. He's gone to the strong five, but that's

[00:13:23] very disloyal to Chrissy, which is fine. That's Siva. But you can't come in and be like strength and loyalty. It's like strength and loyalty to an alliance you made much later after the fact that Chrissy went down with the ship for. So there's a hypocrisy that would be clearly easy to exploit on a final tribal council. There's the entitlement that would be easy to exploit. I mean, it's looking kind of good for like a Mary, I think, to like sit next to him. And I do think that the jurors won't appreciate this because it's not a majority who feels this way. It's a lot of loud voices who have done well strategically. It's the Joes, probably Eva, certainly David,

[00:13:53] who got into a point where they had numbers who wanted to work with them, really good relationship, people on the outside. It's like onion alliance that has given them the numbers to this point. Now, I don't know that the, that that will fold. We'll talk about it. Like, I think that that actually could be maintained because they just have so much power. However, it might be all of them at the end, but it may be the person who exhibits those values the least and certainly not like the most, you know, in the most entitled, indignant way as David is like that. I don't think that'll play

[00:14:20] well with the jury, even if it has been kind of the moral theme of the season. It actually won't be the individual values, I think, of the jurors. It's quite, it's quite fascinating because as you're saying that, and I'm thinking about it, I think that he's the possibly, which is, is a very early to call the one person who actually could lose against everybody else that is remaining

[00:14:49] now, which is, I mean, the only person I'd probably have a question up against is stop, only because she hasn't had as much screen time. So the question is to, but, but you put him up against someone like, assuming it's a final few, which it generally isn't, but he would lose against an Eva, he would lose against a Joe, he would lose against Kyle, who I think has played a

[00:15:18] better game, Shahan, Kamala, Mitch. Mitch, how is Mitch not considered strong? That for me is, it was one of the most bizarre, that's why I say so much of it is, is it a question of genuine conviction, or are they looking at people who are genuinely strong, and, and how is it that someone like Mitch doesn't fit that criteria? Yeah, it's because it's a genuine conviction, but it's a conviction

[00:15:47] based on like some delusion, and like some contradiction, and some hypocrisy that, like it doesn't work in survivor to have a strong person alliance, or like, you know, even like the values of loyalty will be tested, obviously, by the game, and like, yeah, at that point, it's literally just a line that you have drawn, and Mitch being outside of that is always, not only that Mitch is outside of that, but he's specifically targeted for being strong, is one of, I think, like, many hypocrisy. I mean, even in this situation, David's like, we need to vote out Kamala, because Shaheen is close to Kamala,

[00:16:17] and here's my side person, Mary, but she's part of the alliance. I've decided Mary's in with us, so it's fine, and to be fair, that's a credit to his power, but the hypocrisy of like, Mary is fine, because she's in now. It's a strong six. We changed the name. The name has been changed, and the other person who's like close to other people in this alliance, Kyle is less known, but like Shaheen, no, she's a concern. Like in another world, Mary could be the concern, but you beat the drum long enough, and you believe it, as I think that, I don't think David's ever like considered that, and then it's just, that's the truth, and that's like the values that they've

[00:16:45] created for the season, and it's a very, very arbitrary line. It really is. For me, the most fascinating part about it is how someone like Joe and Eva end up being the people that determine how this goes. Again, strong, physically strong players who are so much

[00:17:07] at the center of what's happening. I'm just trying to think of a season where we would see that to that extent, where you know, a two-man vote is so visible, um, yet nobody's is thinking to go for him, except for Chrissy, who's got no social capital to make that happen anyway.

[00:17:32] Yeah, to the point where even if I think that this strong personal alliance will crumble, I think David would have to be the target and the reason, and I'd love to talk about it, because I'm going away. This is the last episode I'm recapping for the next like month. So my question is like, will the show get interesting again while I'm gone? And kind of, I don't want it to, because then I'll have FOMO. I'll be like in Greece, like, I kind of want to be talking about Survivor right now. I kind of want it to stay boring so that I can enjoy my holiday. But will the show get interesting? And I think that the key to that is Shaheen.

[00:18:02] Should Shaheen flip over? Because here's where, here's the label and we have Joe and Eva and David, who I don't think will flip from each other. Now it kind of doesn't make sense because like, yeah, David shouldn't want to go to the end with Joe and Eva. I'm Joe and Eva do have a lot of power there. So yeah, so they might want to, but I think the important thing is for all of them, this individual game of Survivor is second to the Kool-Aid that they are all drinking, and it's all very real. And I think Mary's with that for now and kind of doesn't have anywhere else to go.

[00:18:27] So I think that's a four. That's a clear four. Then you have Star and like, to be fair, Star is with Laggy, but it would only take one person like Kyle going to Star and being like, there's a strong person in the Alliance you're not in. And she'd be like, oh, okay. And I do agree. Star has so little air. I think Star has fewer confessionals than Kevin, which is, it should be flipped. Star should have the most confessionals. I think that I need the director's cut on the season, but there's Star and Mitch and then Camilla. And then I think Kyle has to

[00:18:56] flip because this is a terrible road for Kyle. And I thought this was a terrible episode for Kyle. And I think that if Kyle had known it was going to get to this, he would have tried to never get, you know, he would have tried to shake things up to not be in this path if he could have. So Kyle needs to flip and that leaves a four four. And who do we have? Shaheen in the middle. So then it becomes, will Shaheen flip on the strong with the others? Strong with the others, just how David sees the world. And I, and I don't know, like, do you think that Shaheen will flip?

[00:19:20] Because he's really close to, to Joe and Eva. They've been like his most solid allies. And then David has been kind of targeting him and Mary's been kind of targeting at least his relationship. So that's not good. But then the other side, where is he there? Like we've seen he had a little bit of something with Star with the beware advantage, but see they have all the power. Then it's like Kyle, Camilla and Mitch, they're in power. So do you think Shaheen should stick with the strong people or that he should flip over to the others? I think he has to. I don't think he has a choice actually. Really?

[00:19:50] Seeing as, seeing as it's very weird because I think the previous episode, Kyle and Camilla targeted him. Yeah. Even though they didn't follow that through. Yeah. And that's where the questionable thing sort of is, is okay, they targeted him. And because of that, David has a question mark and wants to control his influence on the game. Yeah.

[00:20:17] Whereas it's, it's very strange. Whereas he is very trusting of Camilla. That's why I say that the guys on the, I wish, I really, really wish that Shaheen, Kyle, Camilla, Mitch, Star could get together and like target someone like David and, and blow the game out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's, it's crazy to think that Shaheen is the one who's sort of between the two groups

[00:20:47] when he is the target. It would seem for the other, for either side of influential guys. Um, with that said though, I don't know if it's a, a throwaway on the, on the, at the end of the episode where they play next time on survivor. It, it, it seems like it will all culminate next episode. Like you don't know if that's a, a misguided. They make it seem like that every week. Yeah. Like, I think they made it feel like that. Like,

[00:21:15] I mean, maybe, and it does seem like in a perfect world, I mean, certainly yes, star Mitch, Kyle, Camilla should bring over Shaheen. They need Shaheen so much to do this. And then as you said, ironically though, they've been targeting Shaheen. The reason that Camilla is being targeted here is because Shaheen is shady. David even says he may have an idol. So we have to cut Camilla because they were together in the challenge. Camilla is the one who brought that to David to try target Shaheen, which is insane. But Shaheen does love Camilla. Like Shaheen says he trusts Camilla more than Kyle and David. Like he actually is close to Camilla,

[00:21:44] but the feeling has not been mutual. So that might be enough. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't, I don't know if Camilla trusts Shaheen enough because, well, we know that Kyle certainly doesn't. So there's a whole conversation to be had there about what their way forward is going to be. And that's what I think that for me is what the

[00:22:09] status thing is about this week, because they could have taken a clean, a clean shot. They couldn't because Starr didn't have a vote. Oh yes, because of Starr. Yeah, which is I'm sure triggering, but also, I mean, we need to talk about that because it's a... That sounds like the personality of this episode.

[00:22:36] Well, it's every New Era episode, to be fair. Like, it's not like, there's so many lost votes, but I think, yeah, I mean, if in a world where, I think this is the rub for me, in a world where Camilla sees the game as strong versus not strong and Kyle's with her, and knows to target Shaheen's vote at the game, where they are targeting people to take away their vote, where the people who've lost the challenge, then this can happen. Like, then we can have the flip,

[00:23:05] but she's not seeing it as strong versus not strong, which is weird because she knows that that's the group. She's putting so much trust into David. Like, to David's credit, this is all on David. It's a shame that he's like losing the game right now, because like, on pure impact, she's investing fully into Siva v Laghi. So they then target Starr's vote, but they desperately need Starr's vote. And in a world where Shaheen's vote, and he's not a swing vote anymore, is gone. Then they have, yes, Chrissy, Mitch, Kyle, Camilla, and Starr, who again, they can be like,

[00:23:32] there's a strong person alliance without you. I know you're close to Laghi, but you're not part of this. And then there's only the four without Shaheen of Joe, Eva, David, and Mary. And then they would win the day. But considering that they couldn't do that, and would still have needed Shaheen in this group, and it was also so late in the day, they then have to sacrifice Chrissy, which is still not got his way. And while Camilla stayed around, like, yeah, losing Chrissy, who wants to take a shot at them, is very bad. Now they're relying on Shaheen, who they have been targeting, who does

[00:24:02] trust Camilla and Kyle, especially Camilla. So maybe that's enough that he will erroneously go in waves with people who have been targeting him. Maybe he will. But honestly, his best most loyal allies have been Joe and Eva. And Laghi do have the control in that group. Now, I think it's a very rigid group. I think being passively taken to the end in the strong personal alliance is certainly not a winning game. But I think the fluid option blows stuff up, and I just don't know where he sits in that fluidity. So I think both are bad. For fun, for sure, you want him to flip over and take out

[00:24:31] a day, but I don't know that he's super incentivized to do it at this point. And if that's the case, then I think the strong personal alliance are going to keep trucking on it until they have some even bigger fracture, if that even happens, or they just run it down to the end. And I get to enjoy my holiday without being distracted by this show. Yes, I think the other thing about it, which is quite fascinating for me, I do feel that... I mean, we'll talk about... Maybe we can talk about it now.

[00:25:01] Kyle's defensive strategy, now having to kick into full gear, was more a product of, well, because they didn't go to the reward. This is why it's important sometimes to end up in the right place, where this conversation between Chrissy and Camilla was birthed. So he felt that he needed to protect Camilla at all costs, but was not very good at communicating

[00:25:31] that in such a way that didn't expose him. Yes. I feel so... I'm so worried about his position now, because he's so exposed. It's so clear. Whereas everyone else has sort of been clear about who they've been pairing up with. And again, you know, with the morality. So I think, to be fair on Kyle, he was played into that position where he doesn't want either of these people to go home between Chrissy and Camilla.

[00:26:01] But I think he came off somewhat too desperate to protect Camilla. That he's not... I don't see what his path can be. You know, the idea that everyone within his alliance, Eva and Joe, David and May, you can see the pairs and they've been open and honest about them. Yeah.

[00:26:28] Whereas he's chosen not to be, and then goes and exposes himself like this, I think puts him in a precarious position. Yeah. In his lack of errors, he did save her for that one round. But I don't think that he has enough ties to effect some sort of change as to what is actually happening beyond this vote. Yeah. And I think he's in a difficult position moving forward.

[00:26:54] Yeah, I completely agree. I think he won a battle and lost the war. Yeah. And I think that the actual vote, like saving Camilla to me is a lot less important. Well, I mean, saving Camilla was important, but like winning that basically was less important to me than how the whole structure looks. And losing Chrissy, as I said, isn't good for him either. And now he's at a point where he does have to totally flip the hierarchy, less Camilla goes, that she's next on the chopping block. And he is just like left with a strong personal alliance that, I mean, isn't great for him.

[00:27:24] I don't think that, you know, and we talk about if Shaheen should flip, I wouldn't want to sit next to like a Joe or maybe even like an Eva, even though like I do think Karl is super likable and could win and like maybe Shaheen as well. But it's not like the best bet. So I think that the strong personalize again, like the same kind of negatives for Shaheen being passively dragged through in this group is not going to do a lot there. There are tough people to sit next to. And also he has no agency, clearly, like he's losing Camilla to that.

[00:27:50] So I think that he has to try and flip it. And that's a big if that's a big maybe, but maybe he can do it next week with Shaheen. It's a very, very tough spot. I thought that he came across, yeah, completely desperate. But if anything, he was really showing how Camilla should have been the target for this group. I don't think it really, really matters, I guess, because at the end of the day, Camilla and Chrissy both fulfill a similar function that are going to be like going against this group probably with Kyle and that like kind of see the spot. But yeah, Camilla is like a way better target for this group because Chrissy's saying your name with no agency.

[00:28:20] It's going to be unanimous vote. Everyone's voting against her. Like Kyle cares enough to really stick his neck on the line for Camilla. And that makes her more dangerous. She seems like a probably more savvy player. And she has the connection to Shaheen and Kyle. Like again, David was right to be fair in what he was saying and that what that made her a better target. So yeah, if anything, I think that that should have like it probably showed social capital that he could get her over the line. And he definitely did well in kind of like, you know, telling Joe about how Chrissy had been putting his name out. Like I think he did a good job in that and knew who to go to in Joe.

[00:28:50] But like for sure, Camilla is a way bigger target. It should be a bigger target for the group because Kyle cared enough to like desperately try to save her. But yeah, I didn't think that this I thought it was a really unfortunate episode for Kyle, who I thought was like on a really good track until now. And now I'm like, oh, the whole position was wrong. Like you invested so much into David and now you have like almost nothing when he's turning against Camilla. And that's given a lot of power to David that now seems like it was misplaced. Yeah.

[00:29:17] I do think though, the missing part in the episode, I did listen to Chrissy's exit interview and she said she had known all along that she was going home. Yeah. So I wonder, was it a question of what do you think it was that switched that decision from Camilla to Chrissy? Because I think up until we went to Tribal Council, it was going to be Camilla, was my understanding.

[00:29:46] There's a change at Tribal. And if that was the case, we didn't get any indication as to when or if it did happen that way. Yeah. Yeah. I bet it's Joe's impact. That's the question mark that I have sort of at the end of the episode was, okay, so they obviously decided to go on Chrissy, but what happened in between to make that shift? Yeah.

[00:30:14] I think Joe is very powerful. I mean, if you're looking at a six-person strong person alliance, then Joe wants Chrissy, Carl and Shaheen want Chrissy, and Eva, David and Mary want Camilla. So it's a bit of a, like, you know, stalemate, but I think that Joe can probably bring Eva over and be like, she was saying my name and then it becomes a majority. So I would think that it's probably something like that. By the way, very audacious. Mary has just been added to this alliance and she's like, we should vote out. She's like calling the shots. That's what I was thinking.

[00:30:42] I was like, she's like, she's basically taking Kyle's spot here. They're a strong four. And beat him because his voice isn't like as highly valued as hers. I thought that that was quite interesting. I must say, big up to her, eh? She's not a very good spot to go deep. Yeah. I completely agree. It was interesting because I've been talking about people with people in the last couple of days who maybe think Kyle did well. And Mary did poorly.

[00:31:12] I thought this was a good spot for Mary because we don't know where she sits with anyone else. She's the last ruler left. She's definitely close to David and David's looking better and better to sit next to. And at the point where someone takes a shot at David, which might happen, he's a great shield. And then you kind of want to pick up a Mary. Like if you take a shot at David and then you need other numbers, say you're like a Shaheen and a Kyle. I feel like Joe and Eva will be really angry about that. Like you've gone against this cause, the strong man cause. So maybe you don't want to pick up Joe and Eva. Maybe they're like not malleable.

[00:31:41] But Mary actually would be in a position where you pick her up and she'd have the warning shot at David. Or they play it down and she sits next to her like a David and she has a point of difference and a Vula story against them. And people, she could be in a Christie position. It's not that you want to bank on like a Christie position. But if they're hating the whole strong man thing and if it's as insufferable as it has been, even half as insufferable, even a tense, then she's in a great spot to be the differentiator to that. At Final Tribal Council and talk about how she utilised it to her advantage. So I don't see where else she goes anyway. But like I don't hate this spot for her either.

[00:32:10] And I think that, you know, getting into the alliance here. Yeah. I mean, it could have been anyone. But not only was it not Camilla. Camilla's being targeted. I thought she could have been the Sixth. And Mary is like now calling the shots in this new Sixth. Yes. And how it's the other thing about it for me. I love that comment that Star had about the conversations and she wishing that there were subtitles. It's the idea that they're able to like quite brazenly ignore everyone else.

[00:32:39] Who is not a part of them is like for me just mind blowing. Yet somehow Mary managed to get herself in there. And she wasn't one of the people left out. So she really is in a very good position. Yeah. I think this was good for her. What did you think about kind of the structure of the episode? Because it was basically four challenges.

[00:33:10] Underratedly terrible is a long challenge, by the way. Like just from a TV perspective, I hate that this is a now like new era classic. And from the disparity again of the losers and the winners again physically being endorsed in a system that simply seems to hate people who are strong. I really do think it's not good. But interesting stuff here. I think the first part of it is like that they have to pick the pairs. And again, the strong person alliance is going to be able to just like pick their pairs and not really worry about how that comes across.

[00:33:37] If anything, picking someone outside of the Sixth, Camilla, was like most of the drama. But what do you think about this as like a game mechanism? Because I feel like they have to rush. They have to rush people publicizing where they stand because it's just like the next day. They don't have the time for like fractures to like out themselves. So they're like, let me show you, you know, who the pairs are, what the relations are in these kind of like more contrived or manufactured ways. And that's like picking the pair.

[00:34:03] So what do you kind of think about that as an element to like the super long challenge classic of the new era? I think before we recorded, I mentioned to you that that moment had me, it felt like a throwback to survive on my cases, actually. Where it was that challenge that made Nileann and Pascal, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:27] Because it was sort of the, what made everyone see what the alliances actually were and the priorities of everyone. And for me, it's again, one of those where it's fascinating how everybody knew. It confirmed that. I mean, I mean, Chrissy tried to say, okay, let's, how about we do it arbitrarily? And Joe was like, no, put his foot down. Everybody turned the line.

[00:34:58] Which is, in my view, all the more reason for you to be going after one of the strong people right there. But I think what happened is because so many of them were split up. And in a single day, you're just not going to have the opportunity to have the contact time to have those conversations. I think, dare I say. Yeah.

[00:35:25] I put an asterisk on that because Chrissy is a different dynamic to that. But maybe if it had been one of those challenges where they have, they go to tribal council the following day. Yeah. Maybe a different conversation could have been had among different people.

[00:35:44] But when you have the limited amount of time and you have so many people being away from camp, it just forces everyone to kind of like just toe the line. It's be safe. Which is, in my view, quite similar to what split tribals do. Is that people end up playing more conservatively because they don't have the time, the numbers to kind of work out. And it's too risky.

[00:36:13] It's almost too risky to try and do anything else. Yeah. And I think that's what that came down to. It just reinforced what everyone knew was happening anyway. But I don't think they necessarily would have had the time, you know. Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Because we've been talking in the last couple of weeks about how Murgatory and the split tribal both incentivize conservative gameplay. Also, Murgatory right before a known split tribal into a split tribal where you can't confer with a full majority of all the people left. Both incentivize, you know, like conservative gameplay. And this is now, as you said, this is a really good point. This is a one day round where they're mostly split up. Like even like the desperation of Kyle. It's like a last minute desperation.

[00:37:04] It has to go on to Christina. I don't think there are other options anyway because Starr has lost her vote. But like even so, I don't know if they can do a full flip on a one day, you know, separated day. I think that that also, you know, pushes conservative gameplay. I'm just out of, yeah, being desperate and not having the time. So, I mean, the one thing that they've done is you would think like, yeah, a chop challenge style, show your loyalty type decision like the pairs might show that.

[00:37:33] It's unfortunate that it didn't. I think that, you know, you don't want to just like pick straws or go randomly because the stakes are clearly very high. You know, it's not just immunity. It's your vote, possibly. It's your, you know, reward. Now if he either gets an advantage, like I would really care about like trying to balance who I can get to the final part of the challenge with at the very least. So I have my vote, let alone try to like win that challenge. And it outs them. But I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze because, again, the disparity then of those stakes becomes so extreme.

[00:38:01] I would rather just like a regular chop challenge, which is like one of my favorite, you know, mechanisms in the old school survivor. But it is, yeah, really interesting that that day is so condensed. So then it gets to the last part of this, which is that the four people who've come last in the challenge, you're going to go do this like Mario Party style game where they can't get three balls. Which is a very strategic, publicly strategic challenge where you will like choose to deny people and they choose star. And again, this is the crux of the entire episode for me of how weren't you going for Shaheen?

[00:38:30] Last week, they were targeting Shaheen. It made no sense to me. Yeah. Right. It made no sense to me. Well, maybe that sense is that it's very public. Like in a world where Camilla sees it as Laghi v Siva, then she can take from either Shaheen or Star. And without pissing off Shaheen, who feels loyal to her personally, clearly, despite the fact that she's targeted him.

[00:38:57] And the fact that they're both Laghi, it's like, well, I can do either and people will be less pissed off at Star. Because she had the power at a point. She gives Star's third ball when she could have given the second to Shaheen. And we could have really tried right now. She, Star and Mitch should have all been targeting Shaheen. They could have had five votes here. We could have really flipped it. But she's not seeing the game that way. She's seeing it as Siva Laghi, which is wrong. But yeah, this was devastating because this was the game for me. Like losing the vote here. At least it was earned, to be fair. Like, yes, there's no agency when a vote is taken. But like, this is what Camilla does so wrong in this episode.

[00:39:26] Like she's seen the game wrong despite assumedly knowing about the strong person alliance. It's so crazy. The wrong person to target. It's painful. It is. It's so crazy because I think up until this episode, she was my Winnipeg. Like genuinely so. Because and then all of a sudden she was targeted from all angles correctly so. Yeah. Threat level management is also not that great. So they are seeing how great she is.

[00:39:57] Yeah. Yeah. There's so much about that that just doesn't make sense to me. And I question whether, okay, is the relationship with Shaheen legitimate? Is it real on her side as well now? Or is it one of those where she's finding herself increasingly in a position where she has to because he's all she's got, basically, to make whatever potential flip work.

[00:40:24] But again, for me, the biggest question mark I have is how is it that someone like Star and to a lesser extent Mitch, like completely treated as non-entities at this point? And surely both sides should be seeing that they have the capacity to swing either way. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:50] I mean, I definitely, I mean, the way that Star is just discarded here when she should be not just an option for the people on the bottom. She's the pivotal vote that they need. Shaheen v. Star is the power. It's the balance of power between Shaheen's with the strong people as of yet or is at best a swing vote that we've discussed in this group. And Star should be with them in a way that, again, even if she's been close to Eva, you have so much verifiable information of how she's been on the out. She's talking about how she can see them strategizing without her. She knows she's on the bottom and she's talked about wanting to take out the strong people. It's such a no brainer.

[00:41:19] I do wonder if it's like these mechanisms are so public to the point where like even with the choosing the pairs, they kind of did what I've always said they should do with the journey, which is not be so congenial and just be like, no, I'm making a stand. And with the high stakes and the power that they have, that's what they did. And they did. No one could even have the capacity to come back to bites, to bite them. And they rely on that. And to be fair to them, they get it done here with the ball challenge. It's so public. Like they have been looking to target Shaheen.

[00:41:45] So maybe it's that they don't want to show him that they're targeting. Like maybe it's take stars vote and then sneak attack Shaheen. But like the margins were way too thin. And again, they're not seeing it the right way. At the point where they're both laggy, then that's why they're looking at it. They think they have David. That's the issue. David's actively targeting Camilla and she's her key swing vote. She gives up what should be her key swing vote in star for David. And he's targeting her. It's such an incredibly fatal flaw of the way of looking at the game. And that's it. Then that's the problem.

[00:42:15] That's why this has gone so, so badly. But in a world where you can see it perfectly, you would think take Shaheen's vote and then target like a David, you know, but she's thinking maybe, maybe they target Shaheen and they've taken stars vote so that he like laggy has less power. And that was just not the right call. That was, yeah. That's the whole, that's this whole episode. For Carl and Camilla who've been like the duo, this was, I thought, like disaster episode. Even though they win, they both survive. They win the day. I thought this was. I don't think they've won the war though. Yeah.

[00:42:45] Yeah. They won this battle, but they, they, I suppose next, the next episode will tell whether they've won the war or not, or are in a position to, but it, it was disastrous for them. Yeah. I have a question because I'm trying to pass it out myself. Is it interesting that the game was so public? Because I don't know why production wants it to be so public because it kind of keeps people in line, right? Like the fact that Shaheen can see it happening,

[00:43:14] can see who's screwing him over and when incentivizes you to not screw over Shaheen and now they've lost the numbers possibly, possibly out of some type of fear. Although they do tell us in confessional, like they wanted a target star. So it's probably just reading the game. Yeah. I was about to say though, in the confessional Camilla's luck, they wanted to target star, which is what makes it even more bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.

[00:43:40] But it was, it was, yeah, again, like a near game movie losing move possibly, but, but should production want it to be so public so that it outs people's intentions or like kind of like how picking the pairs might, you know, because again, the stakes are high, you might have to do it. Or does it keep people in line because it's so public? Would a better game be to do things in like to deny people privately in some

[00:44:06] sort of game mechanism where you can choose who you want to shoot votes at or something like that. And that person loses their vote. Like if it's going to be quite strategic where you're basically choosing who can go, should they allow them to do it privately to give maybe people on the bottom more of a chance to what, you know, if they've lost a challenge here and it's enough people like more of a chance to kind of upend something or how public it is. Like interesting because it shows where people stand. But I just kind of think it keeps people, even though the intention was wrong.

[00:44:36] Like I do think it also keeps people in line because you don't really want to trigger someone's defense mechanism to make a flip. You know, if you're making a flip later on, you don't want to trigger someone's defense mechanism. So they know to play an idol or something because you've like betrayed them here to take their vote, even though you might really, really need to and want to take their vote, which they didn't, but they should have. Yeah. So my thing was, I saw it as a continuation of from the beginning of the episode where they had to pick the pairs.

[00:45:04] So there was a level of transparency, which I think production was probably driving at. That's what I said. For me, it gave me Survivor Maccasus vibes. You got a sense that that is actually what they were actively pushing for, even in terms of how people were separated post that. And that the transparency was a continuation of that, even for the guys right at the bottom. Because at the same time, it's like, okay,

[00:45:33] you set them up in a position where they can have a conversation, but at the same time, one of them is going to inevitably lose their vote. So they still have to be gaming each other, even though they need each other to kind of think of making something happen. So I saw that as a continuation of that from production side in terms of transparency. Yeah. Yeah. Production was like, Hey, if you want to have all the power, it's going to have to be very public. And they were like, okay.

[00:46:03] And they were like, yeah, and they were super public, but the thing is they maintain so much power through the, you know, the pairs that they chose to then got it done. And through then Shaheen again, the intention was wrong, but like if Shaheen then has enough power to not be targeted, like even though it was public, it maintained so much power that they could then continue to rule even publicly. And even though people know about it, there's just, as we see with Chrissy, nothing they can really do about it. So maybe I understand what production was trying to go, go for in terms of like making it,

[00:46:33] like putting the stakes high enough that like, okay, if you want to, if you want this, like just, you know, give them a simple chop challenge, but yeah, they made that disparity quite, quite extreme. And then, you know, the other side just made wrong decisions also, but like just lost any sense of what those numbers could be to come up against this power group. Yeah. It's interesting because I think a lot of this was,

[00:47:00] a lot of this episode was all about what Chrissy had done wrong. And, and the fall of Chrissy and how it, it literally came from the one tribal council, um, where, where this, the episode opens with her, like kind of trying to legitimize her thoughts, her having verbalized her thoughts, which was, was one of those. It's like, we're all thinking that, but you don't need, you mustn't say it out loud.

[00:47:28] And then that immediately makes nobody want to trust you. Nobody want to work with you. When you've openly said, guys, I want to stab people in the back. Let's do this. Okay. Sure. You can want to do that to them. That means you're going to do it to us at a later stage. So I, I think she, she really talked herself into a position where working with her was, was always going to be problematic,

[00:47:58] I think, and would have you wanting to do a double take on whether or not, she's actually worth someone moving forward with. And as much as she was correct about what she was saying and the, and the kind of game that, that the tribe is playing now. Yeah. I, I just think she, she just verbalized it. To the group as a mass. And that was what the problem was. Yeah.

[00:48:27] I completely agree that she shouldn't have done it, especially last episode, but then also David and Eva being so annoyed by it was so annoying. Like they were like, she wants to play the game. And I was like, okay, she shouldn't have said that, but like your irritation with it, like she might want to play her own game, even though she shouldn't tell you that was so irritating to me. So interesting that it becomes a unanimous vote. She doesn't play a shot in the dark because she didn't remember to, which Cedric also said. And it makes me kind of think, should Jeff be being like, it's now time to vote or play your shot in the dark. Like he's not triggering that thought in them.

[00:48:57] And for some reason, people are just not remembering to even try their shot in the dark, but so interesting that they allow her to maybe play a shot in the dark, but she's clearly being blindsided. There is no split from either people on the bottom who don't want to go home. Like a Camilla, if she hits shot in the dark, Camilla is going home, but Camilla can't split a vote. Camilla can't vote for like a Mitch or even a star who she's going to need. And we need to pull star over and she can't vote for someone in the power group and anger them further. So it's, it's no,

[00:49:26] no one can even incentivize to tell Chrissy, let alone if she seems like a workable ally, but no one is because you'd hate to be like a Mitch giving her the heads up. And then she hits a shot in the dark. And then you don't want to split and be the person who's like annoyed someone by splitting. So now it's a zero, zero re-vote and maybe you go home. So no one's incentivized to help her. No one can really split. The people on the top probably could have split. The people on the top probably could have split a vote on Camilla in case Camilla splits her own vote on a shot in the dark, but everyone was so passively willing for different reasons to allow this to get to

[00:49:54] like an eight to one vote where someone forgets to play her shot in the dark. And that could be the difference. It's a, it's a small odd. She has to think to play it. She has to be fully blindsided. Well, not blindsided, which it seems like that was really clear, but they think to play it and then hit it for sure. It's a low odd, but like the fact that no one from at least the top was thinking about splitting on a split is interesting to me. And for the people on the bottom, I do understand it. Like I get like, you don't tell Chrissy, you're allowed to go. She doesn't play a shot in the dark. You do not want to split the vote socially. I totally get that. But like a very unfortunate position to be. You're like,

[00:50:24] this woman is spiraling at tribal council. She's saying everything is fair and true, but like she's clearly on her way out the door. And if she plays a shot in the dark, like Camilla should think she's out the door there. That's like, that's such an unfortunate spot to be in. Yeah. It's that, that for me, a unanimous vote at this stage was down on shocking. I think that's why, that's why I say this episode gives me very old school survivor vibes because of that things like that should not be happening. There's a,

[00:50:54] a whole different thought process that should be happening. Yeah. And, and I think Camilla's nerves of steel to have gone through with the unanimous vote in that situation as well. Yeah. Yeah. It was the right call though. It was the right call because she has to hit a shot in the dark. She has to play it. She has to hit it. And who is she voting for? Like who is that split on star? And then next week you're, you're banking on someone like a star, someone in the majority who gets even angry at you.

[00:51:23] And they have so much power. And like your plan B, if you can't like get the majority or get like a majority against a strong group is at least to try to push like a Mitch under the bus in front of you. But if you've thrown a vote, you're exactly the social sneaky person they all hate. And even more so you're out. If you can't throw it on someone in the majority, she doesn't want to throw it on like a Mitch. She, she needs to be on the bottom and she's I'm sure scared of the people on the top. So there's no vote to throw. And it's, you just got to hope that Chrissy doesn't play a shot in the dark and doesn't hit it. And I think that was the right thing to do, but like,

[00:51:51] it's just was a very unfortunate spot for Camilla. Yeah, this was, this was very tough. What about a Mitch? You know, Mitch looked out the door last week and Mitch has been, you leapfrogged by two different targets. It's now like a Chrissy Camilla thing. I thought, you know, not, I mean, obviously you'd rather like be able to actually vote out, you know, people at the top for Mitch, but like on terms of just like hanging on from the bottom, I thought this went okay for Mitch to not be targeted when he's been like the forefront of being targeted. And now it's kind of feels like he's like been rotated out of that.

[00:52:22] Yeah. I also think, I think my thing with Mitch is again, so many of these guys at the bottom are just not reading what's happening. It's easy. Again, it's easy for us to see it, watching it on our screens, but it's going back to David and saying, you know, can we, can we go? He was strong. Like for me, can we go do, yeah. See Balagi.

[00:52:50] it was a complete misread. I think in terms of what was happening, although I get the sense that by the end of this episode, he could actually see how it was playing out. I hope so. So I hope so. I feel the only one sitting with star while everyone else is going out and chatting. You have an idea of, okay, my girl, it's you and I. So where do we fit in,

[00:53:20] in this equation? And, and I think, I think apart from that, he's very fortunate to have gone through. He was not the target, which surprises me because I think the underlying thing is that probably next year, Joan and Eva, it had come up earlier that they have a very good story to tell at the end. You know? So maybe it's, it's just a question of,

[00:53:49] they were just bigger targets on the board and he was an beneficiary of that. Yeah. But last week he was the big target. Like last week from charity, it was like him and say, I think, I think he was probably even before Cedric and just happened to be on that tribe with say, I think it shows that he was right last week. He'd use his, his vote block on say, make her a vulnerable target. I'd have to split on a possible shot in the dark, like really just like make himself less threatening. And I think that that worked very well because he was able to hide here. And then I was like,

[00:54:19] well, could he have used the vote block? But like, it's so useless because it's kind of like the anti-extrovert, I guess, like the opposite of that, because it's just, even if he had his vote block here and they don't have Shaheen, that doesn't work either. Like that's then just a 4-4, even if next week they get star over and they don't have Shaheen, it's a 4-4. So it, you know, you're not going to get a majority with the vote block. So I think he used it to its best effect, even here when you would think like they might almost have the numbers, they still don't with the vote block. Like you really need the difference of like Shaheen, not having a vote, but start having her, you know,

[00:54:49] or Shaheen coming over next week. It's that like a vote steal of a human being, Shaheen next week, rather than like just blocking a vote and taking it to like a tie here on next week. So I think he did well in that because he's made himself, he's made himself small when they were so worried about him being, yeah, like compared to Chrissy, they were worried because he's really strong in challenges and all of that. And they take out Chrissy here. So that, and they wanted Camilla who also was a big threat over Mitch. That's as good as it's going to get for Mitch right now. Like that,

[00:55:17] that was best case scenario probably at this point. Yes. I'm fascinated on who you think the, the progressive target slash split would then be following the same line of thinking. It would obviously be Camilla, but who would be the alternate vote then? I'm just saying in terms of what the natural progression would be in terms of the target. In terms of the next target. Strong five. Strong five. Well, the strong five,

[00:55:44] I think we'll want Camilla out next and it'll become about pulling Shaheen over to take out a David. And then the thing that becomes very tricky then is that then Shaheen and Kyle, if they ever do that, I like the bad guys who, you know, went against this like strong moral group, even without David there, probably from Joe and Eva alone. And I don't know that he can work with them. And I think they might be very anti Shaheen and Kyle at that point. I think you also would lose a lot of social capital.

[00:56:12] Shaheen is in a very tough spot here because you either have to go against that group or go down with the group. And I kind of hate both spots for him. So I think this is really tricky. And I do think that like, as much as I've criticized David and we'll continue to criticize him for the jury management and certainly for the line of thinking that he clearly believes. The fact that Camilla and Mitch, even as you said, approaches David and the fact that Camilla is stealing a vote or taking away with the red balls,

[00:56:40] the wrong vote as based on and relying on David who is targeting her and who so clearly was always strong, five strong last week when she was going to him, we called that a bad rate and she's going to him about Shaheen. And we're like, no, because he's going to, you know, he's going to prioritize the strong five. And she is thinking that he's super strong. And that is such a bad read. And I don't know how Kyle could have believed that. And I don't know how any of them are relying on David at this point when it seems so clear to us that that wasn't it. And he's doing that work. It almost seems like it's strategic.

[00:57:09] It almost seems like that's something David would hate, but I mean, really, but he is doing really good work there. It's just a shame that it's, it's all amounting to either being like a really big target that people want to take out and can agree on taking out compared to like a Joe that people love and, or it's, he's going to the end and people hate that, you know, people are just clearly Chrissy on the jury now is hating that. So a lot of good work is doing probably zero gain, but you do have to credit the fact that they completely misread David and then like sunk their games because of it. Yeah. True.

[00:57:40] Um, the other side for me is that I found myself wondering is, is how is it that even Joe are not on anyone's lips as well? Okay. Joe was on Chrissy's lips. Yeah. Which I think was the correct, was the correct play as well. Um, but she clearly wasn't aware of kind of the social capital that he has. Um, and Eva, um, I mean, she's got an idol from star. She's thinking,

[00:58:09] boy, does she regret giving that idol to Eva now? Yeah. Um, we don't know. we don't know. We don't know where star sits now. We don't know who are star's allies. Star needs so much more screen time than she's currently getting. Like, it's just like painful. Um, Um, I think she's in the laggy. Yeah. Um, and what, and what sort of like how, again, I think after each episode, I'm like,

[00:58:37] why are Eva and Joe not being targeted? This for me is. Yes. I suppose a testament to their game. Really? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, definitely like Kyle says how much he likes Joe. And I do think, you know, Joe makes sense as a target from a jury perspective, from a, you know, just combining the whole strong five perspective, the fact that it was strong, strong six. Now, I guess that everyone loves him. That's why you take him out, but that's why people don't want to take him out. And I think that is a huge credit to him. And that makes him actually a bad target for someone like Chrissy,

[00:59:07] because like, that's not going to happen. Like, I don't think Kyle's ever doing that. He's actually looking at a Shaheen, which he shouldn't be. Um, and they need Shaheen anyway, but in a world where they like have stars vote, you would make like Chrissy should be pushing more of a Shaheen because I think people will go with that more. But I think, yeah, I mean, massive credit to, to Joe, um, who is just so beloved and who is not doing as much of like the really bad things we see David do. Like this could actually amount to a win for him,

[00:59:35] but we also have to think about the fact it's will Shaheen flip that they can get the numbers next week and the guests are over, get all the numbers. Will Shaheen flip? And then, as you said, look what this group has. They have an immunity idol. They have whatever advantage. Eva won in the challenge. And there was questions about like, why was it an Eva's food bowl? Because she clearly, she won the challenge to win the advantage. So she's going to have an advantage. They know that she's going to be there tomorrow night to get whatever the advantage is. One of them is very likely to win immunity. Like Kyle could win for sure. Shaheen,

[01:00:05] you know, has been up there. It could be a different type of challenge that someone else could win, but that group has sewn up all the immunity so far. It's literally been Kyle, Joe, David, and Eva. So they're going to maybe have three types of immunity. That's going to be a tough group to go against. Even if they do get the numbers. That's exactly what I was thinking. That you actually, you can't make a hit. You have to be so clinical and get the right target. Yeah.

[01:00:34] Because if you don't, they're basically immune for the next three rounds. But based on, on what is most likely to happen. And, and this is why, again, it's such a pity that they couldn't, the guys at the bottom couldn't hobble together and make something happen in this round, because this is where you almost feel like the game has actually gotten away from them. Yeah. It's all on Jaheim next week. And even then,

[01:01:04] and with this week when, but at the point where star lost her vote over Shaheen, Shaheen losing, it could have changed it, but star losing a vote over Shaheen. It was done. As you said, even if she, but even if that doesn't, as you said, the timing, it's so interesting. And I really wish we could have a conversation with production about the ways that they are really incentivizing conservative gameplay, because even if that happens, say they come back, Shaheen has lost his vote. Camilla, you're being targeted, but they have like seemingly such a short amount of time. Is it the desperate? Just vote out Chrissy, just vote out Chrissy. Even though they need Chrissy. I think probably it is,

[01:01:34] even though what it should be is. Okay. That's it. Tell star about the, this has been happening. We're getting the people in the bottom. We're flipping now. Is it that? Because do they have the time for that? Because that would be like the move of the season. And it seems like they have like 20 minutes to do it. So yes, I think separating them is a very good point that that made it a very, very tough spot. At the end of the day, they all got on the same beach. I know like four days ago and they've spent most of that time apart. So yeah, it's not, it's,

[01:02:03] it's not going well for the people on the bottom. There are a lot of the people on the top have done very well. And it's like, they're always a few moves ahead. And also the game is like kind of incentivized against the people in the bottom, like being able to have that capacity and they've made mistakes. But yeah, even, even in a world where like they know to take away Shaheen's vote, I still think it's hard to get them all on the same page here, but I've seen it happen, but that, that was impossible. That was that the, the Shaheen, the taking away stars vote over Shaheen's was like truly like,

[01:02:32] that was the whole episode. That was, that was the whole power against the majority right now. And now they're completely relying on Shaheen next week. And like, maybe, you know, but the thing, the thing, the thing with Camilla is like Camilla needed to pick a lane. Are you targeting Shaheen or Shaheen like really key ally to you? Because by not targeting Shaheen here, she has chosen that Shaheen is a key ally to her. And he does trust her a lot. Um, and help, you know, it put her in extreme danger, I think here, but maybe that'll be enough for Shaheen next week to go with Camilla's side.

[01:03:02] Maybe that's where he sees his numbers. Maybe that's a bigger pool for him than Joe and Eva in a more fluid game where, where it's more broken up and there's more kind of potential rather than just like running it down in a very blocked up game. And if that's what it is, then it was Difi, but then it's like a two part move to pull it back. I still don't credit it now, but then I hugely credit next week where I will not be here. Um, but yeah, they have to do that now. Yeah. She really needs to do that because she's hugely invested in Shaheen at this point to her detriment. I think.

[01:03:29] But it's also fascinating because you didn't see as much pushback from Shaheen on Camilla's name as, as there was with Kyle. I don't know if, if that is what consumed the bulk of the episode, sort of the, the David versus Kyle thing. So I don't know if they're building that up into, okay, he's leading this Alliance. He's leading the other. This is how it's going to come together. Um, with a big clash. That's what I'm hoping happens. Yeah. And,

[01:03:59] and hopefully Camilla survives despite a really bad episode now. Um, but it's, it's, it's, um, I'm just, I just have a question mark because you didn't see as much pushback from Shaheen as you did with Kyle for Camilla. So it's like, what is there a genuine basis for this? Yes. He trusts, he trusts her, but was he willing to let her go? Yeah. Sort of to advance himself,

[01:04:29] even though it was going to end up limiting his options moving forward. Yeah. In his mind. We did see Kyle and Shaheen talk about how they didn't want it to be Camilla. It was, no one could, no one could possibly have run around as desperately as Kyle did for Camilla. It was actually very sweet. Um, it was a very unfortunate spot. It is. It's like, it's a little suspicious. And, but, and we definitely have been rooting for them. And I think what was so unfortunate was that nothing he could say made sense

[01:04:54] because every reason that he wanted to save her is the reason she should be voted out. It's like, why do you want to save her? Because I love her. Okay. Like you, but it's like, no, but then exactly. This is exactly my concern. You're more of a concern to me than, than Camilla and Shaheen. So, but nothing that he's like, I'm getting played. David to it again, to his credit, what am I doing? But David to his credit was like, by who, who are we getting played by? Like, what does this make sense? Like why, why is it such a big issue? And I think that they even were like, it almost really doesn't matter. And it's true.

[01:05:21] It shouldn't have really mattered at a point where you have a majority that are going to be voting out, Chris and Camilla in some order. It shouldn't really be a big deal. It's a huge deal to Kyle. Like that's his whole pathway. He would, he would choose Camilla. If you were to tell Kyle that it was going to get to this point where he's running desperately around, needing to save Camilla and it's still dicey. He, he never tries to get to this point. And I don't even know when he gets out of it, because I don't see how you get rid of David last week or clearly even Shaheen last week. They couldn't do it without David. And then the week before that,

[01:05:50] like maybe you try to keep charity as something of a, of a SIVA option if that was going to be his road. But like Kyle hates his spot now. But the thing is like, yeah, it's vastly different from where they think he is. But if he reveals that, which I think through his facial expressions kind of did, then it just makes Camilla more of a threat. And it makes you shady as hell. So David was true. And then he's like, but we can bring Camilla in. She's been voting with us. And David's like, it doesn't matter if anything, having more than the six would be bad. We're not trying to bring people in and then like get rid of them.

[01:06:19] I already brought in my partner. Mary got brought in like unilaterally by me. And we don't want more than that. Like everything he was saying made so much sense, but it was just so unfortunate for Kyle because there was no way, there was no way to pitch this in a way that made any sense. Yeah. He should have led, as Joe said, with, with, yeah, that's actually what he should have, that's what he should have led. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was good. He did that well, but the funny thing is as well. Yeah.

[01:06:49] But then also, but like, even for Joe, I think Camilla should be the target because Chrissy throwing his name, like irrelevant. Chrissy again is about to unanimously go home. Like there's nothing there with Chrissy. Even if she's saying your name, Camilla is way more dangerous, but that, that was effective. And obviously he knew could work for someone like Joe, who doesn't want to hear that. And it's like, you know, scared to be targeted. It's like this really big, clear threat. Usually. That was good. Everything else about how like Camilla has been voting with us as

[01:07:18] irrelevant, as David says, you know, she's been trustworthy, irrelevant. Every, every, we're getting played by who nothing else made any sense. Yeah. So let's put our chips down because I'm going away clearly. As I've said many times, who do they do? The others get one over on the strong group next week. Let's make a bet. Let's make a bet on this. Do you think that they, they pull over Shaheen or get something done in what world?

[01:07:47] No advantages with probable, no immunities without the numbers at this point. Can they, it does a put, there's a someone who was Joe, either David or Mary, or even I guess Shaheen at that point, go home next week. Or do we lose someone on the bottom, a Camilla or a Mitch or a star, or maybe even a Kyle who just at this point looks dicey and isn't really in the group. I think,

[01:08:13] I think one of the guys at the bottom will go home. It's, it's, it's, I just don't see a pathway. I'm hoping it doesn't happen. I'm hoping that they target the four strong, five strong, excluding Mary, but I, I just don't see how it can happen. They've got so much protection there at the top. And, and again, for me, short of any one of them flipping,

[01:08:44] that's the only way that it could happen is, is if one of the guys at the top, do you actually flip on the airlines? Then it could happen. But apart from that, I just, I just think that the guys at the bottom are not reading what's happening in such a way that they can make something happen. Yeah. Which is weird because they don't need to read it. Like Kyle is in the Alliance. Like he knows exactly. And that's why it's kind of like the worst part for Camilla that she even

[01:09:12] knows that and still relies on David choosing her over an Alliance that she should know about and the strong people. I just think that they don't have the numbers. I just think it's too far gone at this point. And it does maybe rely on like a Joe and Eva splitting from like a David and Mary. That's another possible pathway. Cause I'm assuming the four of them are together and I don't see that happening either. So then it's all on Shaheen. And I would love to know what Shaheen's ideal pathway to the end is. I think bad spots all around because he's aligned with good jury threats

[01:09:40] and in a very like rigid lock, or he's going to go to like be the bad guy flipping on them to go to a fluid group where he doesn't have the power. I don't know what it is for him. I don't think he should necessarily flip. I don't think that's better. I don't think either spot is good. And I think he's crucial to it. And I think he's the kind of player who will make moves in his best interest. I just don't know what that best interest is. And if I could tell you, he has to flip and it's so much better. Like it's clearly way better for star. So like star should definitely flip. And hopefully we'll be given the information to flip, but should Shaheen? Like, I don't know that I can say that.

[01:10:10] So I don't know that he does. So maybe, maybe the strong people are like playing this out and maybe people need to just like accept that that is what the season is possibly. That's how I, that's what I'm predicting. But I guess, you know, anything is possible. Yeah. I think, I think if you think about it, a few votes down the line, I'm like Shaheen probably is in a better position staying with the strong five actually. Um,

[01:10:38] because he becomes the sort of the, apart from Kyle, maybe it's a toss up between the two of them. The one person who's actually built relationships with the people going onto the jury. Um, and, and, and probably has a better read of their thoughts and what they prioritize in the game. So you fancy, oops, you fancy his chances of winning far more, uh,

[01:11:07] in a setup where he goes out with the strong five than if he does a flip with him. I don't know. That's, that's my, my thinking around that. Yeah. Even though I don't want to sit next to Joe. Pardon? Well, I wouldn't want him to, I wouldn't want to sit next to Joe. But I think, to be honest, I think everyone is losing if they're sitting next to Joe. Exactly. So when is the shot being taken on Joe? I get proper Tom Westman vibes from him. Yeah.

[01:11:38] everyone who's there is losing if they're sitting next to Joe. Yeah. So, but then when are you taking the shot at Joe? Like Shaheen has to be thinking about that, but Joe's like his closest ally. Um, you've obviously got to do it before fire making. Um, and you've got to do it. And, and this is where, again, I was thinking that instead of targeting, and this is where I would have differed with Chrissy on this one, is that, um,

[01:12:05] probably would make more sense to have gone for Eva. Well, Eva was a target. Oh, yes. It was, but, but I mean, moving forward. Yeah. She becomes the target because she is, she is more set in his way, in her ways than, than Joe is, I think. And has, I mean, she said she wanted to go for Joe because Eva will be lost without him.

[01:12:32] But I think she will just cling on more tightly to someone like a David and a Mary. And then for more of an unbreakable, alliance with them, because you guys didn't betray me. You, you can see her thinking. And whereas someone like Joe seems more malleable. Um, you just need the time to work at him and, and convince him how any other move, you know, works in his favor. So, yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:02] And I think, I just, I just do think that, you know, Eva's got an immunity. I don't, and potentially another one coming up. So she's, again, she's someone else who they just won't be able to make a hit on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what's tricky with Joe is Joe. I don't think of the self-interested player. Like, I think Joe will go down for the ship with the ship for the cause of the strong men, you know,

[01:13:31] of like, because it's so hard to be so strong. And I think that that's probably like genuinely, like beyond, beyond how insanely ridiculous that is. Like Joe is someone who has said that he would lose for Eva. He said that at the very beginning of the show. So like, I do think that like ask him to be disloyal. And I think he would rather make a bad game decision. And that's like the, the amount of strength that that has in an alliance. Like you have people who will go down with the ship for each other and they have an advantage and they have like these really strong bonds. And they are like, again,

[01:14:01] benefited by a system that will help them through the fire through in these, these challenges that have these like big stakes. And, um, it's going to be very, very hard, I think to break through that for, um, yeah, for anyone. And if I'm Shaheen, I'm thinking, how am I beating that? You know, they're my closest allies and they're kind of my ticket to the end, but how is that a winning game? And I'm struggling to see how he gets kind of to the end on the other path. It would be an impressive way to get to the end, probably a winning game, but it's tricky.

[01:14:32] Siva would have the power. Like then you're flipping, you have kind of star who we've seen. He, who you haven't included in the Alliance to this point. And who we saw you talk about beware with one time. I don't know their relationship well enough. And then you have Siva's, you have Kyle Camilla who you're relying on, who have been targeting you. You don't even know it's even a worse position than you think. And Mitch terrible spot, but going to the end, the other way. Yeah. You'll probably get close to fire. You might be picked off at like a five, maybe, or maybe you have the power with Eva and Joe and you pick up like a David at a

[01:15:01] five and you get through to fire and you slid and lose. And we really love to know what you're thinking. The whole game depends on it, but should we get to the chizzy and we can talk about who's doing really well in this? Let's do it. Take it away. Jacob Sager Weinstein and MC color. One, two, three. Love the dots. Okay. Here are the chizzy shots.

[01:15:30] Kyle is currently leading. Who are you giving points to? Okay. So I'm giving three points to Joe. Yeah. I'm giving two to Mary and I'm giving one to Eva. Yeah. I just feel that. I just feel that Joe's positioning in this game is unparalleled. He is, even when he doesn't have immunity,

[01:15:56] he's got immunity because he seems to be sort of the nucleus in terms of what's actually happening. Nothing can happen without his stamp of approval. And even though we don't know what happened to eventually flip it onto Chrissy instead of Camilla, I think that the person that either side would have needed to persuade was Joe. And so I think he's,

[01:16:22] he's currently playing the most dominant game here. Yeah. Then I gave two to Mary because I love how she's reinvented herself in this game and her positioning to a point where she's actually got to stay and not part of the outcast, but, but really secure within the dominant alliance. And that tends to be the kind of position where when you're playing,

[01:16:50] everyone else around her is probably going to take hits in her alliance before she does. So I think she's, she's poised to have a pretty deep run. And then my one point is to Eva. Again, I think she's, she's had a great episode and she is obviously got the advantage that he's decided wisely not to share with anyone, even Joe, heaven forbid. So I'd love to see how that plays out. And, and again,

[01:17:20] I think she's also in a very safe position. Um, yeah. Yeah. I'm in a very, very similar place to you. I'm giving three points to Joe. Um, it's the way that even Kyle is like, I love Joe. It's the way that like Kyle goes to Joe in that moment of desperation, like a child to a father being like, help me, help me, Paul, you know, like I really, really feel like he, yeah. And like, while I don't agree for any of them that Camilla should have been saved, even though Chrissy was the right target.

[01:17:49] I also don't really think it matters really. Like I do think Camilla is a much bigger threat, but I think that they do feel a similar spot of people who will be trying to do this kind of counter plan and will either be able to or not. Um, Camilla is definitely a big individual threat. So like that is a loss. And certainly we might look back to Camilla wins the season and we're like, well, we could have taken out Camilla, but like on the structure of their alliance, I do think it's mostly fine. And I see for Joe more than anyone, I guess, because he is saying his name, even though, even I think Joe should, even Joe should be going for Camilla. Um,

[01:18:19] he just was so well positioned and so beloved. You see the way they all sit around him. Like he is like the center of everything. I just said the nucleus. Yeah. 100%. Wonderful, wonderful comparison. And I will say, I've been seeing Kyle as the winner, um, to this point. And now I kind of see Joe. I just thought it was such a bad episode for Kyle. He was in like such a bad spot and now needs to really wrestle it back. But Joe is with allies who are relying on him,

[01:18:48] who will lose next to him and people aren't taking shots at him. And he just has so much power. And I do think we'll beat anyone. So Joe is in an amazing spot. And so six to three points this week, he goes up to 10, um, almost as much as Cedric. Joe is always on as many points as Cedric. That's crazy. That's where we're currently at. Um, I'm glad he got his flowers though. Cause he's yeah, really, really doing well. I'm going to give two points to Eva. Who I think is also in a great spot with Joe there. She's in that great spot with Joe who might one day sacrifice himself for her. Like she's in a very good spot.

[01:19:18] And that wasn't the sacrifices happening at, in Palau. So Joe might, might kind of be the Ian at that point, but, um, yeah, Eva, I think I'm giving her, um, two points. So that'll put up to 11 points as well. Um, as, as many as Cedric. I think that Eva, we said like, Oh, you have this public idol. You're going to have to play it soon. And she hasn't had to because she has so much power. That's so crazy. Like, I know it speaks to the whole Alliance, but like, yeah. Insane. Insane. Um,

[01:19:47] and then one point to Mary, I don't think it's the best possible spot, but I do think it's pretty good. Um, and I know people, she's been getting hate from people online. Um, because people hate the strong personalize and I've definitely vented about it. I don't think anyone should be getting personal hate about this as annoying as some of the things are. And as hard as it was to see Chrissy, not by Mary, but to see Chrissy kind of have to stop like being like, no, no, that's not what I mean. And like, she was getting like having to kind of be flustered. And in that moment, she's being sent out of the game unanimously.

[01:20:15] She didn't even get to have her final say. And it's being told that like, she's wrong as this, you know, ruins her game. And she's being told that like the strong person archetype, she, the older woman is being told that the strong person archetype is, you know, so disenfranchised. So that was really hard to see. I know that, but even so vent on your podcast, vent to each other, but don't say no to the people. And for Mary, it actually makes strategic sense. Like Mary is in this group. And actually at this point where they're going to have all the power, it's a blessing to be chosen.

[01:20:44] So I'm giving one point to Mary, obviously, as I've said about David, he's right about the strategy. He was right in his conversations with Kyle. He's doing all the heavy lifting, lifting of knowing good players like Camilla into having the wrong intentions because they're relying on him so wrongly through last week, through this week, it was clear he was never going to do it. And they're relying on him. It's so strategic. He is a sneaky strategic player. He might not know it, but he is maybe more than anyone. He should be getting three points for how much heavy lifting he is doing in maintaining defense. However,

[01:21:14] I cannot give points to someone who will send a juror out of the game that way for no reason, even if it's how you feel, even if you were right. For why would you do that to the point where Camilla is literally like, this is bad jury management. And that was a death knell. So I can't give him points, but yeah, he brought Mary in. He got hit like, he didn't get his way in taking out Camilla, but he was right that Camilla was the right target. And he's anyway, like in a great spot. He should be getting points, but like, yeah, again,

[01:21:40] that is overwhelmed by the fact that it's so much worse to be arguing with people in tribal council for why. And also it doesn't look good to how you would respond to people in a final tribal council who are upset about that because that's not the way. So I couldn't give David any points, but yeah, that means that when I go on holiday, Kyle will be leading on 14 points. And now we've really changed up the top of the chili. I don't know how I'm giving points while I'm on vacation.

[01:22:08] Dino in a month from now is my next guest in four episodes time. We're going to look back at the whole month of the season. It is possible that I might just make us give out four weeks of chili points. Like we'll have to like note it down when we watch the episode and just have a really long chili segment. That's kind of what I'm thinking right now. I haven't had a lot of time to think about it. At least week after week. No, because we'll do it on the podcast, but we'll have to in our mind, like write down what the chili points are and like not stray from it.

[01:22:35] And like have some sort of verifiable system. I trust Dino though. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, that's kind of currently where I'm at. The chili charts are going to be left in disarray. I do have questions from the listeners. Tiffany asks, how do you adapt your game to the culture of a season? If it is different to how you would normally play. Yeah. I actually saw that. It was, it was an act. Yeah. It's so interesting because I think this happened to me.

[01:23:05] Definitely my first season where you, you go out onto the beach and you get sort of the personalities that you were not expecting to get. And then it's a, it's a fast scramble to try and get yourself in line with whatever the values are. I think that the best way to do it in a setup like this is to attach yourself to someone who is on the inner circle and make yourself invaluable to them. Yeah.

[01:23:35] Like Mary has done in this, in, in this episode. Or Camilla had done with Kyle. So if you have that way, then you know that if the hits are coming for you, then there's someone who was within the inner circle, who is, who it serves them to protect you and will probably go out and back for you. Like Kyle did. Yeah.

[01:24:02] I think that this is an okay spot. I think it does limit agency possibly like having to, you know, go along for the ride on a different type of, you know, value system. But I think fighting against it, if you can fight against it, like at the point where, you know, you can have the numbers and like wage your real war, like definitely do that. But at the point where it's been so far gone every time, like last, like you look back at last week in the split tribal council, where like star Chrissy say,

[01:24:32] and Mitch were all together. And we're like, should they be doing this now? And it's easy to look back at it now, especially for Chrissy. Cause he's gone, but like the odds of one of them being gone was still so high. Like we knew that at the time. And we still thought like, you're going to like take a shot. And, you know, again, win the, win the battle and lose the war. And it still didn't feel like that was going to be like, you know, a long-term winning strategy because it feels like maybe you should hide out. Maybe that's why we're crediting like the Marys or even like a Mitch here for hiding out long enough to hope that something either shifts or for

[01:25:01] like a Mary that you do sit next to people that who, you know, who they like the jury hates that value system that you, are like a Chrissy Bennett. And not that I would again, rely on that, but like if you're sitting next to them and it's like, look how hypocritical this is. And I wasn't, but I used it for my gain. There's a good argument there. It's not a great spot, but I do think that just holding on and hoping for the best, honestly, depends how good that hit is going to be. That might be better. And it's for tribal council where you don't come back to a majority. That might be better at,

[01:25:31] at a, you know, at a, uh, like here where, well, I mean, here, there, here, there are under numbers. If they could have done it, they should have done it. But where it feels like the kind of the, it, you know, that pathway is winning out. If, if that's your only real good option, then like, I mean, that's what you have to do. And even here, had they taken out like a, an Eva last time, they would have come back to what star Mitch say Chrissy.

[01:26:01] And the, and, and the block of vote. And then, and then Camilla, maybe then it would have been on Camilla and Carl. They would have been swings. And maybe at that point, Camilla and Carl aren't flipping. Maybe they should have just done it last week. I don't know. What do you think? Like last week, we said that they shouldn't have done it at the split tribal, but now I'm like, well, they could have had Camilla and Kyle. No, they could have, but, but, but like I said earlier, those split tribals really, they force your hand. Because there's no way to hide. And,

[01:26:28] and they force players to play conservatively. I would, I would just, that's my conclusion on it. Cause I've just seen it so many times. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting to think like, it's almost like I did say last week, like you're going to take a shot at the beast. You're going to kind of like hit an arrow at the head. They're going to be like, Oh, that's annoying. And then like, just keep mauling you, but worse. Cause you've not irritated them. And I felt Tara and I felt like definitely don't do that. And we didn't see where the kind of other numbers were. We thought they'd be relying on,

[01:26:57] on Kyle and Camilla who at that point, maybe don't have to split, you know, at that point, you know, Chrissy doesn't have Camilla as another option because Chrissy so much made herself a big target. It's done this like annoying thing to the majority. And then they just come straight after her and maybe can't Camilla pile on that. Um, but at the point where like Chrissy had the relationship with Camilla and we do know that Camilla and even Kyle were looking at maybe shoring up with Siva. And we didn't really know that that was the case. Like how much Chrissy could know that I'm not sure, but she's had that relationship with the two of them.

[01:27:27] Maybe she should have relied on them and come back to a hopeful majority with Kyle and Camilla. I feel like maybe that was better. As much as I've been like shore up where you can and like, hold on for dear life. Now I'm seeing like, maybe like if you have a shot, like take any shot, take any shot to destabilize it and then try and go back to those numbers. And I think the issue is like, Chrissy's not looking at it like that. Like Chrissy's not even thinking about it. She's like Mitchell say, but in a world where they all come together and then she can try to rely on at least Camilla.

[01:27:57] There's something there, especially with the blocker vote. I think that could have been the numbers. I think it goes back to reading the season that you're on. Hey, because I think again, in any other season, do you think a Say and a Cedric would have gone home in those last two votes? And a person like Say, a person like Say makes the merge and they're pretty safe for a while because, you know, the targets are on perceived threats. Of which,

[01:28:27] you know, I don't think this group would consider someone like a threat. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that, I mean, the majority has also been gifted the fractures of the people on the bottom. And that has been another thing that has really emboldened the majority. They would have known that they're coming back to, you know, 10 people here. That's what I was getting at 10 people. And they would have had a solid four and it would have gone on to Camilla

[01:28:56] and maybe just Camilla or maybe Camilla and Kyle to be like a six, four. And then, then a lot also would have meant like, you know, who loses a vote though? You know, and that's another thing that incentivizes. It's like, do you want to do that? And it's like, we're going to maybe have a slim majority when people go on journeys and lose their votes all the time. Like you are really wrestling in something so unreliable to maybe get numbers that aren't even assured through mechanisms. It's actually crazy how much the last few episodes have incentivized conservative

[01:29:26] gameplay. It's like, should you take the shot and then be like immediately smacked down by production? Like not that the players haven't, like the people on the top haven't done well and the people on the bottom haven't made their own mistakes, but like in so many different ways, it is that much riskier to try and wrestle slim majorities at best and know that there are pitfalls majorly along the way. And I'd have to look back at when this extra long challenge was that they could look back at some sort of precedent. But like, if you think it's coming up and people could be losing their votes,

[01:29:54] that makes it even trickier to try and wrestle back numbers that just, yeah, can't be assured from a pure production standpoint. So yeah, that makes it really tough. So yeah, just hang on for dear life. Is that, that's it? Nah. Is that it? Yeah. No. Yeah. Hang on. I think, yeah, take the shot if you can, but know that there are odds stacked against you, but it's like, yeah, may as well go out swinging. All right. Matt Benjamin asked, what's the largest animal you could take in a fight? And how absurd is it? The Joe said, a gorilla.

[01:30:25] I hated this whole conversation. Why are you fighting animals? Weirdos. For me, like I'm scared of like tiny, tiny little spiders. You know, like I call, like if Peter's not here, I will call my dad back from work to kill like a really tiny spider. And he gets super annoyed. He's like, stop doing this. And I'm just like huddled in a corner. So I don't think I could fight any animal and I don't want to, but what, what do you think you could take? I wouldn't fight any animal. I don't, I don't believe in killing any animal.

[01:30:55] Um, I eat my steak, but somebody else does that for me. I would never butcher it myself. Um, so no, I wouldn't take on an animal. Cause I just, I just, I just don't think it's something we should be doing. I thought it was ludicrous that Joe suggested that he could take on a gorilla. What? Joe probably could. No, no, no. Ludicrous. But could Tom Westman, could Tom Westman take on a gorilla?

[01:31:26] Would he see a need to though? Yeah. Well, I think that's, I think that's, that's the difference is we're saying you shouldn't do it. And they're like, yeah, for sure you shouldn't, but could you? But could you? No. Have you seen the size of those things? No, but like for any animal, cause for me mentally, I couldn't take on any animal. Like it's either too big and going to kill me or it's too small. And then it's like, I would be like, I'm not fighting this. No, no, no. I couldn't take on an animal. I just,

[01:31:54] too many ethical questions around that. Yeah. How did I put myself in this position in the first place? No. Yeah. You got to love an episode that's bookended with what animals are we fighting? And then going to, and the strong have been disenfranchised. So I'm joking. There are a lot of talk about what animals they would fight. It is crazy. that entire conversation was funny. I mean, someone said, it was a cow. He said he could take on a hyena. I'm like, dude, you're clearly not African.

[01:32:21] Cause you have no idea how dangerous those things are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen the lion King. Maybe because he's seen the lion King. Like he's a fan of holes. Maybe he thinks that hyenas are played by Whoopi Goldberg and they're just like kind of stupid. So he could outsmart them. And funny. No, we have a more real sort of sense of,

[01:32:47] of the dangers that hyenas inflict on people actually at the border. And they go hunting on, no, it's quite, they're ravenous creatures. It's scary. Oh my God. I'm kind of team hyena, but like, that sounds like a lot. Yeah. He doesn't give them justice. All right. Well, also this week, just last thing, there was a fan vote of what people should be doing.

[01:33:16] Now we can't vote because we're not in the U S. However, let's talk about what people could vote on. The first was about the look of the immunity necklace. And I didn't see that because I'm not able to vote. But the two other things, so whether they should get supplies. So should it be new era style where there are no, there's no flint, no rice and all that. Or should they get the flint and the rice and the machete? What do you think? I think they should definitely get the supplies. I think I've said this on the podcast with you before.

[01:33:43] That I don't think viewers want to see survivors suffering out there. Yes, there is an element. There's enough suffering as is with the rain and the elements and the delusion of everything that's going on. I do think that supplies are a necessity just to, to get the game going. Yeah. I think that if you don't give people supplies, you're either relying,

[01:34:12] either they will be more out of sorts and not be able to kind of make the moves. We want them to make at their better capacity, which might lead to a steamroll incentivizing again, a steamroll, just people just getting by day by day, just trying to survive, which is the name of the show, but still, or you're relying on like people at the top making stupid moves because they're so depleted and more than either of those things, I would rather see people make good moves. And if that takes a little bit more brainpower through,

[01:34:41] I don't really want to see them starve anyway, but if that takes more brainpower, I actually think it's better for the game that they would be able to do that. I think it also depends on where they are marooned. I think it was on Winners at War where there was a lot of fruit on that beach that there were, that there were lots of papayas. I know in, in the return of the outcast,

[01:35:08] we were on a beach which had a lot of wild pineapples. They were not ripe, but we still ate them. But that can often be the difference between, you know, an ounce of sustenance and whether you can carry on into challenges or whether you can't. And, and, and I just think if you're not going to give people supplies,

[01:35:34] the very least you can do is place them in a place where there is some form of natural vegetation. Yeah. Which I'm sure has been heavily depleted by the path of either season instead of in Fiji for the last many, many years. Yeah. And then the other question was, it was kind of like the same where they were like, do you want a fun game where there are twists every round and like things are fun or do you want to like boring old school basic game? And the funny thing about that is like,

[01:36:04] it's a strange time to ask that because you've had a twist every round and that's been so boring. Like again, that is only incentivized incredibly conservative gameplay. So I don't know what it means when they say twist. That's so vague. I definitely don't trust the show. So like, yeah, definitely for me, no twists. And they already made us vote on idols and stuff. So like you can give them idols and that's not a twist, but yeah, if the twist is this incredibly long challenge, all the split tribals or Murgatory, all of the things that we are saying have like insanely incentivized a steamroll.

[01:36:34] I vote no. That's me. What about you, Teresa? I'm a firm believer that production should trust its cost. They cost really well. Yeah. Yeah. They do. Yeah. They cost really well. And what you find is that so many interesting things will come up when you just leave your cost to be in its purest form. Yeah. I actually,

[01:37:04] I'm of the view that the fewer the advantages and twists, the better the cost can showcase what they can do. Yeah. When you leave the cast to hang out together for one full day ever, which is again, not something that this season is doing, to have conversations and like maybe have even a night together. Maybe just have like a couple of days to like chat about. I think that's the reality of the shortest season is that it,

[01:37:31] it does lend itself to this sort of thing because production has to get through it a lot quicker. So it forces quicker gameplay, which, which, which really doesn't allow the cast room to breathe. Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's crazy. We're in episode eight. Talk about like the strong people being benefited. Like this is David and, and Eva's third tribal council ever, you know? So, and,

[01:38:00] and all of those tribal councils have been in this format. If anything, like actually the incredibly constricted pre-merge, which has its own drawbacks, has been like the purest part of the game. But then that had so many lost votes, you know, like the production is so all over everything. They even like, even when it was entertaining, I'd love to see a little, something a little different, give them some space. Also, based on the, some of the casting rumors and some of like the old schoolers that are apparently being contacted for the season. Like, can you imagine,

[01:38:31] can you imagine? Like, what is Colby Donaldson? If he's on it, I don't know. I'm just like putting out his name on a list. And I thought that that was a TKO for me. I was like, there's no way. Well, I have no idea. You know, I have, I have no, I'm not going to put out like rumors, but I'm just saying that like Colby, like he was at pace. He was like, what's going on in heroes v. Villains? Like what's Colby Donaldson doing with a shot in the dark? Like what is Rupert doing with like the split tribal into the McMurgatory? And like,

[01:39:01] I just don't even see how that works. Shannon, I'm, I'm cheating Australian survivor, Australia versus the world as my survivor 50. I think that cast is, is out the park. And yeah, it was very interesting to see if the strong guys make it in there. I highly doubt it. I don't know. They're a rare and dying breed and things are very difficult for them. So we will see, but yeah, in a shorter Australian survivor season with these big bulky challenges,

[01:39:31] we will see if like the Davids and the Robs and how that goes for them, but that's probably a pretty good format for them. So yeah, we'll see how that goes, but yeah, I mean, are you excited for AUV world? I am so excited. I've been dreaming about that season for, for so long. I just wish it could have been a bigger cast. Yes. You know, you in it. But no, I don't, I don't see myself playing Australian survivor. Heavens, no. I don't think I imagine.

[01:40:02] It just requires a totally different physicality to, which, yeah, I don't think that's, that's me. Well, I would have liked to see it. Hopefully they do AUV world every year and we get all my faves. Well, yeah, maybe, maybe, uh, US survivor should do a US versus the world for season 60. Hey, I'm throwing it out there in the universe. No, they'll never do that. They hate us. And also, do you want to go on you,

[01:40:32] us survivor where, where there's the split tribals and this incredibly long challenge. They don't give the cast a chance to breathe. Yeah. We need to have South Africa back. That's the solution. Pardon? We need to have South Africa back. That's the, the middle ground. versus the rest of the world. Hey. Yeah. Just even SA versus SA, just a regular South African season. But yes, also SA v. World would be very fun. Oh, it, it would, it would. I mean,

[01:41:01] there are a couple of South African players that I would love to see play again, but I'm, but I'm seeing the clock ticking. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, we have Robert, the representative. It would have also been great to get like a Dino, um, Pelesa, like a lot of names have been put out there, like Marion. There's so many good options. They need to do this every year. You know, yeah. I think the one, the one South African player who had, two actually, who I'd really love to see play again,

[01:41:31] um, is Varis, Varna. Yeah. And, and Graham. Yeah. I think, yes. So I was watching out. I was hoping that, that they would have made the shortlist for this season, but, but of course, Rob is a great pick. Yeah. Well, you have to cheer on the South African representation, the strong guy representation that we're both so on board with as well. The strong guy. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I will support it,

[01:42:01] but if I hear Rob at a tribal council talking about how this game is so hard for strong guys and they finally taken their time back, he's going to lose a fan in me. So to be fair, though, I don't think, I don't think that would work on the, on the kind of tribe that he's on. Just, just putting it out there. I would like to see to re-respond to it though. So, yeah. We'll go, you are going home. Goodbye. Yeah. Well, yeah, we'll see. But Rob,

[01:42:30] another one of many examples of strong men who have done very, very well on Survivor. It has been a successful demographic. Teresa, thank you so much. This has been fun. This is the end of my global run for a month. So yeah, let's see. Well, I don't point out anyone interesting while I'm gone. Okay. Okay. You keep being a really boring steamroll. You know the game is going to start now that you're not covering it. It's so annoying. That happened to me last year. That happened to me last year. I was here for the entire 46 pre-merge,

[01:43:00] like terrible pre-merge. And then I, and then when I went away, it got interesting, which was so annoying. I'm just like all of like when Q was trying to quit all that good stuff. And, but to be fair, the pre-merge of this was very good. I was happy to be here for the pre-merge. And now I just want it. I just want a really boring steamroll just for me personally. Like I understand that's worse for the show, but for me, I just don't want to have FOMO and that's my priority. But thank you so much. It's been fun. If it is time, then it will be a steamroll. Yeah, let's do it. Right.

[01:43:29] Then Dino and I will talk about it in one month from now. And we might give four weeks of cheesy points. And that's the closest I've gotten to any of that because I've been podcasting like every day. I'm getting all the deep dives done before I go. And I had a five hour chat with AJ in my own home and an in-person deep dive. And I'm going to talk to miles. And then I've got Karen and Logan. And I did all the Australian survivor finale week content. So if you haven't, you've missed any of that, everyone it's,

[01:43:57] we know global five.com at Shannon Gates. If any of that, we had a recap. We had a feedback show with Mark and Eden. We did exit interviews. We did a UV world. Mike and I did a, I'm a UV world. Primer. So if you're somebody who doesn't watch Australian survivor and you want to know what's going on with a UV world and you want to watch it for some of the U S contestants or some of the internationals, Mike and I gave like the headlines on the whole cast. Yeah. That's been me. And I listened to that when I was supposed to be friending survivor.

[01:44:27] Yeah. I'm aware. You've been to that. Yeah. that caught my attention because it was like, yeah, it was very exciting. Yeah, it is. It's very exciting, but we inch ever closer to that. David and Rob playing in one season. Wow. Yeah. They call that battle of the beefcakes where we're from. That's JLP parlance. So yeah, that's also this season of survivor 48.

[01:44:55] Survivor 48 battle of the beefcakes. Well, battle will be usually more milk, but that's where we're at. But thank you so much, Teresa. I would say tell the people where they can find you, but I know that you have that one Twitter account and that's pretty much it. And then you retweet the question thread when I have you on. And that's, that's it. Yeah. So people can find that on, on, on X now on Twitter. Um, yeah. But thank you.

[01:45:25] Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for being my last vacation. Yeah, of course. I'm really glad that you binged the whole show so that you could be here to talk to me about it. Love it. And I'll bring the rest of it now once it finishes. So will I, when I get back from my vacation. So I'll be following along on the plane, but thank you guys so much for the global listeners. I will see you in a month for the Australian survivor listeners. I will see you on many, many, many more deep dives. Thanks for checking out the content. Thank you to our team behind the scenes. Thank you,

[01:45:55] Teresa. And I will see you all next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.