Survivor Global: Re-Gaming Vula & This Week’s Gender Discourse | Season 48 Episode 2 with Tessa O’Halloran

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[00:00:37] Hello everyone and welcome to ITP's coverage of Survivor 48 for Survivor Global. I'm your host Shannon Garth, here to talk about Episode 2. Vula are completely different to what we thought. Now we have to talk about that after thinking I'd gamed it out last week. It was different. And the person who was going to get three chizzy points from me last week and then things got changed around. And luckily Justin got three chizzy points because I feel like that actually bared out a lot more. Anyway, he went home. So crazy ton of events.

[00:01:03] But to talk about that, I have such a great guest, someone I'm always so, so happy to talk all things survival with. It is the great Tessa Ohalloran. Tessa, thank you for being here. Thank you very much for having me. Very excited for you to explain everything to me because I'm a US survivor, dirty casual, and I have no idea what just happened. I feel casual because I'm doing one podcast in this week compared to five. Like, that's a casual thing, right? One podcast a week. So casual to only podcast one time a week. Yeah.

[00:01:33] Yeah, I think so. I was confused by it too, because I think the way that I see that it happened is that say and then separately, Justin and Cedric both voted for Kevin in different plans. Like say said, I want to vote for Kevin just to rattle him thought Mary in like a two one one. They were both trying to two one one. Why will US survivor always evade me on the two one ones? But so she thought that would happen. But then they were like, oh, well, she's voting for Mary anyway.

[00:02:02] And then he's voting for say it was not really two on one because she would have negated one with an idol. But you understand what it is. And then they were going to two one one back because they both did that. It became a three one. So I but is that really what say was doing? I thought she was first just like, I'm going to float his name just to like shake him. But no, she was actually going to throw a vote at him to shake him. That's so stumped.

[00:02:26] And that's well, let's say that say that is somewhat antisocial player. We can say that. I think that we I do see her say that she wants to rattle him. And we never see the conversation where she and the guys get on the same page about it. But it is obviously possible that that happened as well. And they just wanted to like build the suspense. But they all were like, should we just all vote for Kevin?

[00:02:51] That is also, I think, a distinct possibility rather than two concurrent two one one plans that manifested into a three one. For sure. That's a possibility too. Because she didn't seem surprised at all. Yeah, when he actually went. Even the dream of the one one. Yeah, you probably. And because she started that ball rolling as well. Yeah, I think you are right because she did. I think. So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So, okay.

[00:03:18] I think she was like, I'm going to rattle the cage. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, because I actually still don't get why the boys turned on Kevin. Right. I thought Pizza Boy. Who's Pizza Boy? Justin. Pizza Boy. You know who I mean. Pizza. Yes. I thought he and Kevin were the pair that swung last time and that they were the type two.

[00:03:47] That is how it looked like. But Pizza Boy did exactly the same thing back on Kevin. Yes. It looked like they were a pair. Kevin has said in exits that he and Justin actually weren't so much of a duo. So this is, this is, it is confusing because it's completely changed the structure of the tribe as we thought. I thought it was Justin and Kevin. And then on the side of Justin, like going out in each way, like Justin, Cedric, Say. And then Kevin in the partnership. Yeah. Kevin, Mary. With Mary. Steph. Yeah.

[00:04:16] It was still that lineup, but the emphasis I think was much more on Cedric, Justin, Say. Yeah. And that's much more the group. Yeah. And then the people who were on the outs were Steph, Mary, Kevin. So then you look back and Kevin was actually way more on the bottom than we thought. He wasn't in the center. And because Justin and that three were so locked in as a three last week, there was nothing he could do.

[00:04:40] He actually comes into this week into, in a two, three minority, really like in a better place of the minority, in a minority. But then he starts pushing from that minority. And I think that's where things start to like take a little bit of a tumble for Kevin. Not realizing that he is a minority, but he just looks so loved. I know it was shocking because I did, like I said, I last week on social game alone, even though I was like, I don't know that it was the best decision for him. That's what we came to at the end of the episode. Clearly that was true.

[00:05:06] I think that, yeah, that group of three, Justin, Cedric and Say are very much the group. So you look back at Kevin last week, like, should they have been threatening rocks? Should they have been sticking tight as a three? Because they're all screwed. Like Kevin's gone, Stephanie's gone, Mary's in the line of fire. Like, because assuming that you're a tribe that's going to lose a lot of challenges as well, and you're not just going to like be able to claw to merge. Should they have been harder on that three?

[00:05:37] Well, now, yes. Now he's gone. But I completely understood what Kevin was thinking. I think his plot line was what I was following until Pizza Justin turned on him. Because I thought he made sense. He was saying like, that tribe is likely to lose, right? They're losing. We know how these like six person tribes work. They're going to keep losing. Say has an idol.

[00:06:01] And if it's not flushed this round and the boys are together, then the boys are going to have to turn on each other next round. Like it made sense that she goes, she and her idol or she or her idol go this round. What Kevin was saying made sense to me, except that the boys were not actually together. Yes. Well, you can't let Cedric was more in with Say than we realized. Cedric was very in with Say and so was Justin more in with Say.

[00:06:30] Like at the end of the day, they chose Say more for Kevin. And I think that there's a few things here. Like you cannot let Say get through to four with an idol, but the way that the guys deal with that is they manage together to flush the idol, but still keep her in, which I want to talk about from all of them as well, which I think is an interesting thing because yeah, if Say gets to idol at four, I mean, it's yes to four. Sorry, with an idol. A lot of podcasts in this week. That like she wins the day every time. We don't even have idols at four in the post merge, right? Thank God for that. Not giving Jeff any ideas.

[00:06:59] Also don't have a vote at four anyway. So it's whatever. But I think that if she gets to four with her idol, either she's a majority vote or all three vote for her and she plays the idol. Or even if they try to split a vote and you know, like throw like a vote. Justin throws a vote on Mary. The two of them vote for Say and say she votes for Justin. It's a one, one, two, right? Yeah. She is completely untouchable at four with an idol.

[00:07:26] So he was like, we need to get rid of it. I think had he pushed just to get rid of the idol, knowing he was in a lower position than we knew that would, it's hard to be like, we're not going to vote for her. But if it's like, hey, just get her to play the idol, which they do get her to play. And she probably thinks she's good to go. Right. If they've all agreed, which we'll talk about that, Kevin is the vote and that she's not getting at least two of the four votes, then she is playing her idol here as a sign of good trust.

[00:07:52] I think if he could have been like, how can we get her to burn the idol and put it all on that rather than pushing for a full Say vote where they end up choosing Say over him? I think that would have been better. Let Mary go. And if you get down to another, you know, he's in a bad spot, but if you get down to another tribal council, then she doesn't have an idol. And at that point, you try to win it. It's not a good spot, but I think he did it. He was pushing so hard on something from a very, very unstable place at the bottom of the tribe. Hang on. But how do you get them?

[00:08:21] How do you get Say to burn her idol without also burning trust and say, because Mary has no vote. It means you have to convince her that the boys are. Well, yeah, but it was true because they were burning trust with Kevin. He was well out on her like who's volunteering to be the one who's like voting for Say to make her burn the idol. Well, and keep her in the game. Cedric did that where he was like, there will be votes against you at first and it's enough to play the idol.

[00:08:50] And I really liked the way they both did it because he keeps her in, but he burns the idol, which again, even for your ally is essential because he gives us so much individual power going forward. And I thought that was actually underratedly great from Say because she could be like, wait, wait, we have the numbers at a point. Again, if they, if she's clear on the three, one, she knows they have the numbers. She could try and keep the idol here, at least fight for the idol. And she doesn't, she gives it up so willingly. And I feel like she chooses those future relationships over having an idol and so much individual power in the pre-emerge, but possible long-term relationships going forward.

[00:09:19] And we see how good they feel about her when she does that and how good their relationship is. And I think she's actually used these trinkets really, really well. And giving it up here was like a gesture, almost like a social gesture that she's made, even if she didn't need it and probably even knew she didn't need it. So maybe it's still very hard for Kevin. She was cooler about it than you would have expected as well for how fiery she's been. When Cedric talked to her, she actually did kind of keep her cool. Yeah. I mean, where do you fall on Say?

[00:09:47] She's been like an extreme personality in the season. Do you think she's playing well? Like how, how do you feel about her? Um, I mean, I hated what she did in the premiere with Steph and Mary, just like so antagonistic. Um, and you know, when Steph saying, Oh, like I actually wouldn't have to know about your dad or whatever, whatever they were talking about. And she was like scoffing.

[00:10:11] And that's just, it's just so, you know, like, I know the U S is very fast game now and it has to be less intensely about those like slow build relationships. But I just can't see how you can steamroll without having the relationships to fall back on. So no, I haven't loved what she's been doing, but she was better this episode. Well, and obviously she's done something to get Cedric and Justin on board.

[00:10:40] A hundred percent. I mean, at the end of the day, we're saying she's antisocial because it's so, it seems so antisocial, but she won the battle of relationships today. Cedric says he sees her as a daughter and Justin chooses her of his relationship with Kevin, which maybe to his, his detriment. Like, I think this was great for Cedric who like ends up now kind of in the middle, like Mary's fully in the house and he's actually in the middle now of Justin.

[00:11:03] And we didn't know he was in the middle pair at all. And now he's like the middle person, which is amazing. Justin gives up a relationship with Kevin and I actually think splits up his options for this relationship with say, and maybe with Cedric and say, and like at a point, that's a real credit to say. Did Justin choose say or Cedric though? Was it more that he was closer with Cedric than we'd seen?

[00:11:25] He did say, he has said positive things about say in both episodes. So, but I do think Cedric is, I think Cedric deserves all the credit in this episode. I think Cedric is the center of the tribe. I think he gets everything to his benefit. I, the way that he's gone from like, you know, middle of the tribe, the top of the tribe in my estimation so quickly, I think is so impressive and a really big part of that.

[00:11:46] But I think if say was such a nightmare for Justin, that would be untenable. I think you probably need a bit of both, even if you want to like 60, 40 it to Cedric. Yeah, I follow you. Yeah. Every week I come in just advocating for say in ways that I didn't necessarily anticipate, but she's getting results.

[00:12:13] I don't know. It's a quick game. And I think sometimes it's jarring the way that it's played now in the US. I just find it so hard to believe you can play at this tempo. And this is this like openly aggressively. And when I can have people done that, I'm just like, I feel too casual to know the answer to that at the moment in the new era.

[00:12:38] But yeah, in different ways, like maybe Rachel, not not early, but like obviously ends up kind of like beasting out to the end. And no, I mean, they usually you usually will get sniped like that trinket game has been tried that like aggressive type game. The game has been like the experiment has been tried and it's failed. But I still think that it's too small a sample size. And it is a short game where if you have some connections that will carry you through and you are the kind of person who will play aggressively. Like I do think that kind of game can win out.

[00:13:07] I usually draft based on the assumption it one day will. It seems like the players themselves accept how much the trinkets are just like a massive part of this game now. Like they're all, you know, the beware advantage. I don't know why they bother making it beware anymore because no one's ever not taking the beware advantage these days. And it's like, oh, yeah. And they know what's coming. Like they're not be wearing at all. You know, it's just a new era.

[00:13:37] Well, Kevin played pretty hard. Like where you see where Kevin went wrong here. Like what's the reason for his demise? I guess he underestimated Say's relationships with Cedric and Justin the same way that I did watching it last week. Right. Like he seemed in better with the boys and thought that he could have his cake and eat it too and keep Mary around.

[00:14:02] Yeah, he'd overestimated his own social pool, which I think is understandable because he's adorable and seems very lovable. And it feels a bit bad that, you know, Cedric felt like Say was his daughter and Kevin was not his son because he was adorable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that. I think to me it comes from pushing too hard from being on the bottom. Like if he comes in and he's like, oh, because Justin was immovable last week. Like now it's between me and Mary.

[00:14:32] It's about pushing Mary under the bus. I know it probably doesn't get him to the merge anyway, but it's one more day and you just never know. Like the hope is that like Say pisses them off, like which is a possibility. I think that it's more about like surviving at that point than having full power, even though in exits he did say, you know, like what's the point of getting voted out in a couple of days? Like I do understand that, but it's just it's not the position from which you can be like, and what's my medium term game?

[00:14:55] You know, but so I felt like through his concession, I haven't listened to exits or anything that he thought he was in a better position than he was. I thought that's what he's misread. I think he did think that the guys were more of a thing than they were, but also I don't, he never thought that he and Justin were in the middle. Like I think he maybe thought that it was like, and he's still kind of to the side, but, and maybe they like choose him over Say.

[00:15:24] Um, but he's also asking them to choose Mary over Say. So I think there, there definitely were like parts of the relationship with Say that he underestimated, but he'd never thought like what we thought that he and Justin were like at the top of the tribe. And I think that to be making the kind of, you know, plans that he was, you have to be pretty high up there. And I think he knew he, maybe he didn't know he was so far on the bottom, but I don't think he thought he was in control, but he was acting like he was. And I think that's probably the issue. Yeah, definitely. The overplaying the social capital he actually had. Yeah.

[00:15:54] Now we look back at last week and I think Stephanie, him and Mary should have gone in on the three, three and voted for Say. And if she plays the idol, Stephanie goes and you're screwed. And if she doesn't, you say to Justin, this is the opportunity to take her out with the idol. And she hasn't played it on the re-vote. And I think that you may be at a three, three like that on a tribe that's going to lose where half of you, at least are not making it out of this tribe. Actually, I think maybe you take it down to that point in the first tribal council. Rocks at a premiere. Well, not rocks, but at least try and get Justin over.

[00:16:23] Like at least try against an idol. It's not at least try. Like you have to be ready to go to rocks if you're going to play that plan. Go to rocks. Like they're all going to be out of the game. Like you do not expect. You find yourself on one of those tribes. Yeah, exactly. That'd be devastating. Like you turn up on season 49 to your six person tribe and look around and you're like, oh my God. Where that tribe? Like this is happening.

[00:16:53] You just have to be in the four. And I guess maybe that's why I say played so aggressively. Like maybe she did look around and was like, this is us. This is us. I have to get the four. Stuff learning about everyone's dads. Like if we're not in the four, then you're out. Yeah. It's a weird game. At the point where you know you're that tribe that people will be like making memes about and you're not in a four, but you have a three at that point. And you've lost convincing Justin over just like organically at camp.

[00:17:22] Like I think honestly, like extreme things have to be done. Am I advocating for rocks at the first tribal council? I mean, everything's easy in hindsight. I don't see any of the three of them make it out of this tribe. You can't rely that a swap will ever come and save you. And where, like, where are the numbers changing? And I think that I would go on the ace in the hole of say has an idol. And if she hasn't played it, this is a chance now to take her out on the re-vote where she will not have the chance to play it for Justin.

[00:17:51] And that would be my thing. The other, I guess, sort of possibility was the excursion thing on the boat. Like if Mary had not lost her boat, if she'd actually got to steal a boat. Yeah. A way to turn things around in a new era. And Faye's right. They were crazy to let her go. I think she was that on the bottom. I completely agree. I completely agree. I'd love to talk about this because I've been saying for ages. Why let her go? About the journey.

[00:18:22] And yeah, I felt like she had even said right before, like, oh, I don't need to practice. I feel good about it. And you know who should have been really, really worried about Mary going on the journey? Not Say, who has an idol. She's going to make it out of this okay. Everyone else. Probably Kevin, who I honestly do think just Mary going on the journey alone and possibly having something, could be a reason to just vote for Kevin. You'd hate to have all the votes negated in some way. Kevin votes for Say. The rest vote for Mary. She votes for Cedric. And he goes home.

[00:18:50] So why not take an open, vulnerable target who definitely has nothing? I don't know if they think she's not going to get an idol because Say already has one. But yeah, people are way too congenial about the journey. I will die on this hill. For my last breath. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't get why they were all like, no, no, no. Fair and square. We said we'd have a trial. Like. Especially because Mary's on the outside. She was just left out of the vote. Like she knows where she stands. There's nothing to out at a tribal council about the numbers. Like she was just left out of the vote. It's fine to step on a few toes in this regard.

[00:19:21] I also feel like strategically, you should never have a practice turn of this one, two, three, four, five game. True. True. Because you're always going to not do one the first time and you'll do one the second time. Isn't that how Mary wanted? It's like doing a best of three of scissors, paper, rock. Now you can try and anticipate what people just did. And then you try game scissors, paper, rock. Yeah. No. Yeah. A lot of this as well. And what did they need to practice to understand it? Like, I didn't understand. What were they practicing? Putting the number out? They were practicing how the game worked.

[00:19:51] They should have just let Say go 100%. Yeah. Like, again, even Kevin. No room for sportsmanship in those things. Even Kevin, who wants Say to go. Like, she's already so powerful. And Mary, you should be trying to push Mary under the bus. But then Mary, I felt in this whole episode, completely laid down and died. To come back and be like, I don't have a vote. No, take your chance. Or maybe, oh, I didn't get it. Like, badly lie. Like, oh, I didn't get anything. I would never want you to know that.

[00:20:21] Little do they secretly know. But she actually has nothing. But then you're just scared that she has something. It's the bad lie of it all. So that they're scared to target you. Like, I think that probably worked anyway in her favor against Kevin. But definitely play that up. It's the rock in the pocket. Like, definitely do that. Yeah, no. She definitely laid down to die. It was way too passive. I mean, if I think Say has been a bit aggressive, Mary has been way too passive. Yeah.

[00:20:48] I think that if you come back and you have, like, a bulge somewhere that you're, like, trying to conceal and you're like, oh, I lost my vote. But now I have to go to the well. That would be great. Make them scared to vote for you when you have, they can't split. Yeah. The numbers are so small. I bet that that sucked for Kevin anyway. But, like, definitely try and, like, actively build on that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:21:15] I mean, or even, like, one of the others lied badly and said they just didn't do the test. Right? Was it Thomas? He was like, no, so I just walked away. Yeah. They're all super fans. They've watched every season. Like, they know that most of the time you don't get the opportunity to walk away. Then they know you're lying. I also think with that, Thomas should be telling his allies. Because I always, like, it's a vote steal. You can't do without other people anyway.

[00:21:42] So tell your allies he has a bit of a group now where he has the guys and Bianca at least be telling them. And then Mitch, I thought, good to tell people, but I would do it more than, like, trying to create a group, especially with a vote block, which is, like, such a nothing advantage. I think that speaks for itself. I really like people using smaller advantages at least. Or even bigger advantages like the Beware Idol to try and create relationships. So I actually liked Mitch doing it. It's a shame it's not working, but I would have done it with a more considered group than just, like, telling everyone.

[00:22:11] But, again, you can't use a vote block for that group anyway. You might as well tell them. I kind of like how Mitch came back. And I think it worked with just who he is as a person. I felt like it was really well received. And he was like, I got this for us. And that whole tribe is so, like, rah, rah. I felt like it read the room properly. That is true. I didn't hate it. I prefer that than lying. I just maybe, like, a little bit more of intentionality, but I didn't hate it. It's just a shame it's not really working for him.

[00:22:39] So then in terms of Justin and Cedric on the situation between Mary and Kevin, did you like which way they went with it? Um, yes. I think I do. I mean, it's hard for me not to be prejudiced because I really liked Kevin.

[00:23:01] But keeping Mary in, who is so firmly on the bottom and has nowhere to go, keeping, say, loyal to them, who is, like, such a bulldog and is unlikely to have other social avenues, I think, even in Emerge. It probably works for them. The only thing to think through, though, is that they're already, like, the disaster tribe. And Kevin, though he hurt his shoulder, was probably a challenge asset for them.

[00:23:29] Although it didn't prove out in this challenge, so who knows? Yeah, I think that the shoulder doesn't help. And I think they're so far below the others that I don't know how much Kevin even is helping, despite the fact that he is an asset for them. I think that it's not enough to make the decision compared to, like, someone like Cedric, who, again, like, really puts himself in the center and cuts off a bit of an option for Justin. So I like it better for Cedric because it centralizes him.

[00:23:53] I like it a little bit worse for Justin, who I think did have Kevin as an option in the case where you somehow get through as a group, which seems so unlikely. Kevin might be also a good long-term option for him, but that does seem unlikely. So for Justin, I don't love it as much for cutting off that individual option. But to be fair, you are in a group of three with, say, Kevin is not with you, and he's playing a hell of a lot harder than Mary. Like, the way that Mary played this, you're like, maybe we should keep her around because she did lay down to die with nothing. I mean, she did go out on the journey, and she fought for a ride to go to the journey.

[00:24:20] But, like, to me coming back and being like, I don't have a vote, anyway, take your shots, was... Unless it was purposeful because it seemed suspicious or because it seemed so passive that you maybe go for something else, I can't ascribe that type of agency to her. So it actually, ironically, does make Kevin a better target. Yeah. I guess, I mean, this is all just assuming that they're going to keep losing. I think if there was a... If the challenges had been closer and you think that, you know, they've got a good shot at the next one,

[00:24:49] I would rather keep a Kevin, not for his challenge prowess, but because they'll go in tighter to a merge or a swap. Like, you don't want to take Mary to a swap who's going to jump ship as soon as she can. Yeah. Or float adrift from the ship. Yeah, I think that because they both look like they'll have to be cut at some point anyway, voting out Kevin now just gives you more control to do that in the next couple of weeks.

[00:25:17] Regardless, if you think there's a hope of getting through, I'd rather have Kevin getting through, but it just seems so incredibly unlikely that it seems like a fine bet. Yeah. Unless there's something production has up their sleeve to start, like, to try and even these things out a bit, because surely they're starting to worry about that we only see one tribe for the first, like, four episodes. And four episodes in the US is a month. That's a long time. Like, as in our viewing experience, you're a month barely knowing the other tribes.

[00:25:46] We think they love the disaster tribes and that they unfairly create these tribes and put them on terrible beaches and don't put, like, the clear, strongest guys on a tribe. Yeah. To try and, like, create these storylines, which at least makes you very invested in a tribe. Like, it's definitely the grosser hero. Yeah. The last one standing. Every season. Every season. They did love that. They loved Stephanie. Yeah.

[00:26:12] I think that they certainly have never come to the disaster tribes rescue before. So you can't rely on productions swooping in to save the day if you look like you're going to be. It's true. We've had, like, what if we had eight seasons of this and there's, like, always a disaster tribe? Not last season. Not really in 43 as much. But, yeah, 41. Not as much 42. 44. 45. And 46. So.

[00:26:41] I love that you can do that and know who those people are. Don't make me say the names. Uwa. I'm not going to do it now. Anyway. Oh, wow. Yeah. No, it's just a vibe. Look, it's the vibe I have. It's always a disaster. And we just get to know that one disaster tribe. And I don't love it. I'd like a little bit more. Even competition. Well, what are you seeing with the other types? I don't know if people...

[00:27:11] People who cruise through too many rounds without going to tribal council. I feel like coming to merge so uninvested in each other. Because they're untested. Yeah. Plus, we're uninvested in them. Well, they're trying to build up these dynamics. But the thing is that because we're so used to seeing the disaster tribe happen, it's hard. Like for something like Lagi, where we're seeing like Star is the target. And that's like the main point of contention.

[00:27:39] Just there's part of me that's just like, will we ever see this vote? So instead, I have to think about... And they should be thinking about how does this play out long term? You know, like if we look at Star finding the idol in the way that like Shaheen and Thomas respond to it. Thomas wants to sabotage. Shaheen wants to help her. And that probably speaks to the different relationships that they have with her. But Shaheen is right. Because the odds of Star making it through long term in the game with you, at least to the middle of the game, is incredibly high. Like you don't need an adversity now.

[00:28:08] As much as I'm sure the instinct is like, what happens if we go to tribal? You almost shouldn't trouble trouble till it troubles you. Like I wouldn't be creating these fractions because the odds that you'll never need to have them are so high. And you should definitely just be creating long term bonds as you keep winning challenges. Yeah, absolutely. And they have that weird thing that happens at Merge where it's like a limited group of people you can vote for. And it's like the least loved person goes. You just want as many people on your side as you can, really.

[00:28:36] It just encourages such like congenial gameplay, I guess, which is why it's weird when someone comes out like, say, but she's on the disaster tribe. So then you can understand why. Showing up that first day and being like, damn it, I'm on the disaster tribe would be such a nightmare. Like, wow, there's one in three champs and I'm just unlucky. And that's going to change everything.

[00:29:00] Like, by the time some of these people have gone to the two tribal councils that Kevin has gone to, it might be like, you know, two weeks into the game. It's crazy to think about. Just wild. And you just come in such a different space if you haven't been to tribal. Yeah. So, but what do you, but what do you see on the other tribes? Like we did get a lot from both mostly advantage base, but we saw a lot with Star, Lagi.

[00:29:27] So that's like, they've got the guys like Joe was very much in the center of that tribe. He brings in Shaheen. Oh yeah. And then they, she, Star brings in Thomas and Bianca. And then she just is not on board with Ava, I think it is. Um, so who are you liking in that tribe or who, what are you enjoying about what people are doing? Um, I like Thomas. And I really enjoyed his just lose it idea to just lose the clue.

[00:29:57] It was just so brazen. Like, I don't know, like she can't do it without the clue, just lose it. Um, otherwise, I don't know. I don't know if that means like, I'm really vague on who they are. I like, who is Thomas's friend? Bianca. Bianca. She just seems super normal and relatable. Like that. I'm sure we'll get to know her in two weeks now. Or like a month from now.

[00:30:27] And then who else is on that tribe? Sorry, there's Joe. Shaheen and Joe. Yeah. Shaheen I liked. Yeah. I think you're right that Shaheen was right about, you know, helping to find the idol and not sabotaging. And I liked how he talked through all the options. He seems like someone who thinks through every plan and then actually does the sensible thing. Not like, you know, in some other franchises where people think through all the possible plans and then decides to do the craziest one. Um, yeah, he seems cool. And then who else would you say?

[00:30:57] Star. Yeah, Star. What did you think about her telling five, well, four other people about the idol? Yeah, no, it's crazy. What's the point? Well, the point is, yes, we're never going to go to tribal council. So that should help with, it's not working, which is so unfortunate because she's been like designated as the target. But it seems to work with Shaheen. And I guess it's just like relationship potential when she's not in a good spot.

[00:31:22] Um, I, I like telling everyone, but individually knowing they're all going to cross check and tell each other is a bit pointless. Like either tell two people, tell your two closest allies and do it together or tell no one. No, is that not like the accepted wisdom? I mean, it makes sense to get a four.

[00:31:48] But the issue is once she had the three, then it feels like you can't just tell one of Thomas and Bianca because they're like a pair. So at that point, it just became a five. So, yeah, I mean, it did become a lot of people. I thought that Joe handled it really well. Like Joe firstly is so beloved and he's, he's so many people's number one. Like it seems like he's probably Shaheen's number one. He is. He's upset about it. Number one. He's stars number one. Yeah.

[00:32:12] He's too pure for the game, but on just strategy alone, like three out of five people, I think have maybe made him his number one. And the, and like Thomas probably is, it's probably his number two. Um, Joe is probably number two. So I thought this was so good because to bring in Shaheen to be like, I'm going to bring in Shaheen. It's like gave him that plausible deniability. And he's like, I'm now not betraying either group alone. Like bringing in like a co-conspirator was great. I thought I'm telling it not like, Oh, I'm going to go. Like he ends up telling Eva, which I'm not a hundred stars back either.

[00:32:42] Yeah. A hundred percent. So he brings her in. And then at the point where he's told Eva, he, anyone could have told her, but also he has to get in before someone else, you know, but like tells her and then he's betrayed her. So at that point he has to tell her, but there's also so much plausible deniability because it could have been anyone. So not that he got that, he got the ball rolling by telling Shaheen, he didn't expect Star to tell Thomas and Bianca. But I felt just even getting Shaheen to be like, I'm not alone, just like working with a different side now. Like I'm still bringing you in.

[00:33:10] And also like, feels like he's adding to what Star is doing and he's not betraying Star. Like that was a very deft move, I thought. Yeah. He's such a natural. I feel like he's just naturally. I mean, again, lovable, but also he seems to understand social dynamics and how people are going to receive what he's doing and how he can. It's obviously important to him not to portray people's trust.

[00:33:37] He's finding a way to work his many relationships. Not manipulatively. I guess it's manipulative if someone else does it with less of a kind heart, but he's real natural, isn't he? And I love what he's been like with Eva. Like just so sweet. He's been like cursed with some kind of power. Which is like a sweet guy.

[00:34:01] Like, I feel like it's like a curse for him where he's like, he connects so easily to everyone, but that means he's going to have to betray people, which seems so uncomfortable for him. But it's like, curse, like I'm cursed with these, like the gifts of the survivor gods where I'm just so good at this, but I don't want to manipulate people. And I don't want to break people's trust, but like, I can't help connecting with people. And it's just like this really tragic story that he was in. He reminds me, this is so random, but from South Africa, that Rob Bentil.

[00:34:31] He's like him, except like sweethearted. Do you know what I mean? Like everyone loves him and they're like, he's got all these number ones, but then he's like world's tiniest violin because he's generally, like he's actually torn up about how much everybody trusts him and loves him. Crazy. Yeah. I trust him and love him. Yeah. The audience loves him. The audience loves him. Everyone in his tribe loves him. He's so upset that if anyone will take out Joe, it'll be himself. Like he will quit rather than have to vote someone out.

[00:35:01] Will be the only thing that can take him out because everyone else just falls in love with him. But normally I would hate that. And I still love him. I know. It's magic. He has a gift, a gift he doesn't want. It's a curse. What did you think of them actually changing the mechanism now? Because I've always said they're too congenial for the journeys. And there was never any rhyme or reason to how people go on the journeys. Like I've asked players before and they've said you could run to the boat probably.

[00:35:29] There was no like function in there. And now they're like, well, you will play this game. And went all the way on the other end of it. Nah, I hate it. Just let them do the run to the boat. I like to see how people handle it. Like I know they do a lot of stick drawing, but like someone, they don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. But like at least that's a choice that they made. And I like seeing how aggressive people are and like who actually puts their hand up and

[00:35:57] who's taking charge of how they do it. I think that like we should leave that agency with the players. I completely agree. I feel like so much agency has been taken out of these journeys from now. It's the point where, again, it's just like these individual journeys where they do individual puzzles. Like why do they even meet up at the island? It's so pointless. And they all have to do the puzzle. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we don't have time. Well, we could have time to see it, but they don't really. It's not the point of the exercise. And they can't opt in or opt out to the puzzle.

[00:36:25] And so this game, while I gave, I guess, some agency, because it's like you could try to a high number. I guess you could get screwed over where like two people do a two, two do a three and you do a five and you end up going. You should at least be able to opt in or out of the game. Like there are some people who could accidentally end up on the journey, have to do the puzzle. Yeah, absolutely. Like give them a choice. Yeah. No, you should never, they should never be cornered into that position. Yeah.

[00:36:53] Why can't they opt out of the game? Like it just seems like absolutely clear cut that they should be able to opt out of playing the game at least and just walk away. There have been times where they've been able to walk away, right? They've been able to not play. Yeah. They have had times where they've been able to not play. Of the actual journey. Yeah. They have. But this wasn't the case here. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think that. No, no. On the journey. Have they been able to opt out? Yeah, on the journey.

[00:37:21] They have been able to, but they weren't able to here. Yeah. Yeah. Like anytime you can make people make a decision, like should we opt into trying to go on the journey? Should we opt into the puzzle is good because then it's a decision that we can analyze. Like, I think that I've always said with how to decide on how to go on the journeys, if they didn't have a mechanism for it, it should just be you guys decide. And like, if it really comes down to it and you're fighting and you, there's no way it should be majority rules, what you do, even if majority rules that were picking sticks.

[00:37:51] And if you want to opt into the sticks, you do it, you know, like that should be the pool in case of emergency, but otherwise people will work it out amongst themselves in a way that's way too polite as we've seen. And that is how it will be done. And it's decision making and it's agency like, but this is just, this is just a game. And I think that that again takes away decision making from players in a way that we can analyze for them. Yeah. It's too casino. I reckon no in case of emergency, just like let me see how far they go. Are they going to just like sit on the beach until nightfall with the boat waiting?

[00:38:21] Like great. If they, if they do that, I'll watch it. Like, yeah, I'd like to see how far people will push it. I've always been a fan of like, I guess how uncongenial majority rules would be if it got down to that. And people won't push it to that point because people are trying to be too polite, but it would be funny because then people would have to really show their cards, but you are right. It hasn't been an issue so far in the seven seasons. People do tend to work it out. And someone like say is running to the boat and we were robbed of that.

[00:38:49] We were robbed of them being like, Hey, how are we working this out? And she's just waving at them from the boat. And that would be so funny and interesting to see that happen. Exactly. And the little boat driver's just like, I don't know. I got a person. I'm off. Someone's in the boat. Let's go. I think that there's a possibility that they worry that if you give too much decision making to the players and the majority, the decision makers will, you know, tip the scale so that the majority will win out when this is meant to be something to help the minority.

[00:39:15] Like the fact that Mary goes and gives her a chance to them is the interesting thing. But the thing is as well, that say jumping on the boat is also so interesting. Like I've always said, like, you can just give them the option of something that interesting things will happen, even if it's not the exact thing you want to happen. I think, you know, a good cast, which it always is, of dynamic players will make interesting things happen more of the time rather than you trying to like shoehorn something. So you might think, okay, this gives more of a chance where the people on the bottom have

[00:39:43] an equal chance of going and it gives them like a fair shot at it rather than like majority being like not say is going. But that would also be so interesting to see them do that. So just let people be interesting. And again, they never even do that. They're way too polite with the journey. So it's been also fun. Yeah, but even like with these things, even if it's the majority ends up having the most say because you let them sort it out and it means that the majority is the loudest group, it shows what's going on in the majority, right? Only one person gets to go.

[00:40:13] It's an individual advantage and see who's on top of the majority. Like if two people within the majority want to go and one's not actually getting heard, that's going to create discord. That's going to give the minority an opportunity. Like we're more interested, I think, in how that plays out socially and how they take advantage of it than one, two, three, four, five, you know, the casino role. Completely agree. It could then play out, as you said, to cause a fracture that you didn't anticipate. Yeah. Even if it's not who's a minority member goes on the journey and that's the only way to rock this tribe.

[00:40:43] Like there are dynamic ways that things can be played out other ways if you give people decision-making capability. So taking that away, even if you can try and game the game to try and opt out by doing a five or whatever, I would so much rather, like every single time that they do the journeys, I'm trying to rewind and like watch it really slowly to see who opts in and who opts out and what the discussion is because I'm so interested in it. And instead they were like, pick a number. And I was like, damn it, Jeff, don't take this from me because like, yeah, I find it so

[00:41:12] interesting to see what the players do. It shows so much about their relationships and their position and their intention in the game. Absolutely. It's like they've just gotten really impatient. They're like, these players take so long to like get to know each other and push each other down under buses. So instead we're just like putting a roulette table. We're done in a minute. We know exactly how long that's going to take. You know, it's, they've shortened the season. They've shortened the choices. It's very impatient.

[00:41:40] Yeah, I completely agree with you. Well, who else from, from Siva, we've had, as you said, Mitch, who had a real hero episode, which was great for him as much of these on the outs. We had humble traits. We had charity. We've got this majority alliance with David, Chrissy, Carl and Camilla who ended up getting the idols. Anyone standing out to you on the Siva tribe? I liked Camilla. She seems like a likable person.

[00:42:09] And I liked how she worked, how they worked together. Was it Carl? Was it Carl? Yeah. Holes Alliance. Did you read Holes? Was Holes a book? Yes. Did you see it? Did you watch the movie at least? No, I had no idea what they were talking about. What is Holes? Oh my God. I was actually going to look it up. It's the best movie in book of all time. And also, after I said to Mark on the recap last week, you've never seen Holes.

[00:42:37] Zach said on his recap that people who say you've never seen this movie are annoying. And I do agree with him. And I know I just did it. But Holes is worth it. It has Patricia Charquette. Okay. She's having a moment at the moment as well. Oh, I love her. Yeah. Yes. Sigourney Weaver. What's the like base? Okay, cool. Wait, is this a 90s movie? No, it was like 2003. Because I was in the fifth grade. Okay. What's the genre?

[00:43:07] Young adult mystery. Oh, fun. Flashbacks to the past. It's way too complicated to explain, but I couldn't recommend it more. Your kids are too young right now, but it's so good. It's so good. Okay. I'll at least watch the trailer. I love a trailer. I love it with the movie. I'm very patient. But don't ruin yourself on the movie plot. I actually watched this movie, but I do love to read the movie plot. I'll never see. So I do understand that.

[00:43:35] Does it like tell you something about Carl and Camilla? That they have an amazing taste. And that they're probably millennials. Those two things. Yeah. I completely missed it. I thought it must have been really obscure because they were both like, you too? This random movie that I've never heard of. I thought it was in the curriculum here. Look at them being niche. Well. Is it Australian? No, it's not. It's not Australian. I don't know why. I don't know where. I don't know.

[00:44:05] I read it in school. The point is that I've spoken about holes for like 15 combined minutes on these two recaps. And also that it makes me like Carl and Camilla because they have great taste. I'm not usually into the departed, but holes alone, I'm all in. Isn't the departed scary? Yeah. I haven't seen that either. Holes is a little scary. Awesome. Everything's scary. Young adult's scary. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, look, I like them.

[00:44:34] They seem like a good duo. I like their dynamic. And I like Mitch, obviously, because it might be like Joe. Like, is anyone not liking Mitch? This seems lovely. It's not in the majority. Yeah, that's true. I quite liked him in the Flight Attendant. Charity. They were so like, Charity was so happy for him. It was lovely. Yeah, but they're not in the prized four.

[00:45:04] I don't feel like that four is a real thing. I feel like it's run by the stunt guy. And I think the stunt guy is like, where are four, where are four, where are four? But otherwise, it just seems like Carla and Camilla are a genuine two who get along. And then it's all a bit like, look, this is what I'm saying about them not going to Tribal Council. I have zero investment in them as an alliance. I don't believe it. Do they even believe it? Mitch seems adorable and lovable to the whole tribe. They're probably not going to go to Tribal Council. It's probably not going to actually matter.

[00:45:32] I think their priority should be not making Charity and Mitch seem like, know that they're on the bottom so that when they get to merge, it's not going to be an issue. Yeah, I do think they are in line. I think there's strong feelings about them. The fact that they look for the idol together. Yeah, I think that they think that they're a four because they'll look for the idol together. And that was like a real bonding thing. And that shows a lot of trust. But I do think that at the point that they at least get to Mitch, who is two Tribal Councils away, will never, ever happen, as you said.

[00:46:01] So, like, it's fine. It's real for them in the moment, but it also won't play out in a way that matters. So it's both things. Yeah. I'm uninvested in them. I've got to admit. I was happy for Mitch. He seems like a great guy. We'll see how they, how it tumbles out when they get to merge. I also feel like, um, I feel like they're like a group of really beautiful people talking about their humble traits. Just feels like humble bragging.

[00:46:30] Like, if your toes are the worst thing about your body, I mean, like, humble bragging about your toe. A bit like Joe. And, you know, the worst thing that he's got going on is his very tight alliance with everyone on the tribe. Cry me a river. Well, it's funny that you say that because we got a question from Wither who asked about our humble traits. And I was remembering back to when I did Top Model and they asked, what's your worst physical feature? And I put my feet. Now, I do have gross feet.

[00:46:59] I have my grandpa's feet. But like, I also put it because I was like, I'm not going to tell you the things I actually hate about myself because maybe then you'll see that. And maybe I won't do well. Or you'll exploit it. Yeah. Exactly. Also, it's my worst fear. And I think I've said this on the podcast. I lied. I said heights because I was like, if I tell you I'm scared of bugs, you're clearly going to do a photo shoot where you put me in a case of bugs. So I'm not going to tell you that I'm definitely afraid of bugs. So I gained the thing. But I put my feet because I was like, otherwise, I'm perfect. Right.

[00:47:29] Who cares about feet? And while I do have bad feet. You have a baggie too. Well, I know. I have way more. I was gaming it. I have a thousand more things I hate about myself than my feet. But it was easy to say feet because no one cares about. Well, maybe people do. But I don't care about that. And I didn't think it was going to get me kicked out of the show. Pun intended. I don't know.

[00:47:54] Look, I am apparently on camera in my pajamas fresh out of the shower. So I'm just like actually properly humble. And it's not just my toes. That's actually not humble. That's a trend. You had a shower and you're in pajamas, which is something you could change out of at any time.

[00:48:22] As we're talking about that, the scream cutout, I feel like the humble trait is now the scream cutting out, which I also think is not anything. Like how humble should I be about my technical difficulties? I'm not sure. That's not, that's not a good thing. That's like fine. Humble, my real humble traits are things I would never say on a podcast. They, they, they, they, they say them in therapy. I don't know that it's them on a podcast, you know? Or on TV. No.

[00:48:52] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think gaming out that, the, the humble traits to be like, look, her foot was weird. But who cares? It actually was weird. Like, I, yeah, I hope she's humble about it. Yeah. She's very beautiful though. This was a, this was a storyline in Girls 5 Ever where she like had a weird foot and that was like the whole thing. I also don't know what Girls 5 Ever is. It's a really good show.

[00:49:21] She has Renee Lee Scaldsbury from Hamilton. Anyway, I've been binging it. Um, I thought that Mitch's humble trait was really funny. The way he just like, in fact, he's like, I have a small speech impediment was unbelievable. He's so sweet. Yeah. Um, I've got a couple of things I want to talk about. Should we do the chisly first? Because we've talked about gameplay, et cetera. Yeah. Let's do it. All right. Take it away. Jacob, say you go on scene and MC color. One, two, three.

[00:49:54] It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kind of chisly. Three, two, one. I'm going to the chisly chart. Small chisly charts compared to where we're at in Australian Survivor. But yeah, we got to a point. Kevin will always have those two points. So we got to a point where Justin got three chisly points from me last week. And I'm so glad that it ended up being that because it's like, okay, clearly voting on Stephanie was good for him. We got to better than Kevin, even though Kevin got more screen time. And that was definitely true.

[00:50:22] So this is where we're at. Do you want to go first or should I go first? I feel like we're going to agree about the three points. Um, I think Cedric came out on top this week and really preserved his own alliances and relationships and, um, has secured himself. Really until merge. Even if they continue to lose. So Cedric for three. Yeah.

[00:50:51] I think I found it interesting. Sorry, just talk about humble stuff, but he's a colorectal surgeon. And like surgeons, I work very closely with surgeons, like my day to day. Um, not notoriously humble. And I feel like he has really, um, bucked like the stereotype of a colorectal surgeon.

[00:51:13] And he's been, uh, very like, yeah, actually quite humble and playing his cards well. I don't know. I thought it was interesting. You don't often see his like type on this kind of a show. I didn't realize the colorectal surgeons had such a reputation for being arrogant, but not. Hey, I didn't say that. I work very closely with these guys. But just very powerful. Right. Okay.

[00:51:42] Like very powerful people and used to having everyone do, as they say, the second they say it, you know, they get into the hospital at like 5.30 in the morning and they've got this team of doctors and nurses running around behind them. Like things fall into place around them all day, every day. So he's like long, stressful days. And that's not how he's playing this game. Yeah.

[00:52:03] Well, firstly, the fact that you can like butcher a challenge like that and then actually use it to become the full center of the tribe where you have two key allies on either side and then someone who's like way on the bottom. And you're probably going to get to a three where you will decide, um, is really impressive. I mean, it's where I felt Kevin was last week, to be fair, but I didn't love Kevin's decision. I do like Cedric's decision, but if he goes home next week, okay, I just don't understand this tribe. But I do really like the decision.

[00:52:31] I think that also the way he brought, um, you know, flushing the idol to say in the way she responded to that and their relationship was really good. The fact that he, he got the idol out in that as well, even while being aligned with say keeps the power with him rather than being fully with say even on the side of that alliance. So, yeah, I think that he is great and screwed up the challenge, but it didn't matter. Like it was all fully out. And also who cares? Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you think they might in like a small tribe?

[00:52:59] Again, like we see, but like last week when they want to get rid of Stephanie anyway, they'll talk about the challenge. When they don't want to, they're all like hugging Cedric and all crying. Like that speaks to the social media. They love it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have three points. Yeah, definitely. I'm definitely, I am going to give a point. I know where I'm giving my one point. So I think I'll do that next. I'm just going to go totally right. I do my 60 points. Three, one, two. That's my humble trade.

[00:53:29] I'm giving my one point to say. Okay. I just can't give her two points. I think she's been too aggressive. And I don't see her being long for the game. But I think she deserves a point for not panicking and going into like chaos mode when she found out votes were coming at her. I think she did actually launch the Kevin vote, which works out very well for her. Like better than anyone really.

[00:53:57] I mean, Cedric obviously, but she's the one that Kevin was coming for. And she benefits hugely from him being out. But I can't give her two points, especially the way she was talking with Mary at Tribal Council. Presumably knowing that Mary's not going home and still being like, nah, this relationship's done. We can't move back. This is gone. She can't get two points. But I think one is fair. Yeah. Okay. Then who's the two? I don't know.

[00:54:29] I guess they're my points to give and I don't have to feel like I need to get it perfect. I think I'm going to give it to Shaheen. Okay. Okay. I like that. I really liked how he thought through the situation he was in with that idol, Steyer's idol. I liked that he decided to play it socially.

[00:54:58] I liked that he had the relationships that he was the one that Joe brought in. You know, Joe's got a lot of relationships. He's a powerful guy, but Shaheen's the one he went to. So I can admit that it's a little bit random, but I feel like he's someone, I like his spot in the game and I just really liked the way he thought through the situation and talked through it. I completely agree. I think that his approach to building bridges for people who are not getting voted out anytime soon was the right instinct.

[00:55:28] He does it well. He builds something with Star, which could be crucial when we get to the next portion of the game. And also Joe trusts him above everyone to go to be like, we should bring in Shaheen. And that speaks as well to that positive relationship. I like it a lot. I'll even, I'll put, I'll make him an honorable mention. I'm going to give you a three to Cedric, as we said, like the fact as well, what I do enjoy about the disaster tribes, as much as it's played out is watching the way people shift to get into that center. And the way that Cedric did it was just really impressive here.

[00:55:57] Like he leapfrogged a bunch of people to get to like, oh, I'm like, oh, and I love this now, but he's like the king of the tribe. So definitely Cedric, I am giving two to say the way that playing the idol was such a gesture. It's like she lost the idol, but she gained so much trust. And if she gets to a three with Justin, say, and Cedric, Cedric might choose her. She might be there with Cedric now. So she's actually also really improved her position and she didn't even need the idol to do it, which would have seen her through a pre-merge or at least like through the next vote to try and get what she wants.

[00:56:26] But then maybe Seva's relationship for the next vote and, you know, the next part of the game. Instead, I think she's taking it further. Even that might play out really, really well for the pre-merge anyway, even without that power and longer term. And yes, is it weird every week coming in and giving Sage easy points and being like, it's against everything we hold true and believe when she's telling people to their face, like, you know, about the relationships they can and can't have. Yes, but it works for her. Her social game. It is a social game, but it's her social game.

[00:56:56] It's very unique. But when Cedric's calling her a daughter and making moves to protect her and they're working well together and Justin has chosen her. It's a social game. It's just unlike a social game we have seen before, and it will piss off anyone not included in it. That's the other part of that. It will also make enemies, but it's also making friends. So I've given her those two points. I, in the one was between these people. I ended up giving an honorable mention to Justin, just as I feel like he's still kind

[00:57:25] of at the center there with Cedric, but I feel like he loses some power, cuts off an option in Kevin and like Cedric really wins the day there. So I gave a point to Joe for the curse of being loved, for the fact that everyone comes to him first and for the way he handed it by bringing in Shaheen. They both do well there. So I think the fact that they both get points makes a lot of sense. So that does put Cedric on six and say on six leading the Chizzy and then Justin on four. Kevin will always have left on two. Camilla's on three. This is all out of order.

[00:57:55] My humble trade is not being able to read the Chizzy charts live. Yeah. Shaheen too. I don't know if I already said that. Joe on one. That's currently where we're at. So that is the Chizzy. I wanted to talk about something that happened off camera this week where it's a few days old now, but I only have one time a week to talk about US Survivor. Okay. Where Jeff, I was, we're talking about this a little bit before we recorded, but for the listeners and, you know, to, to kind of like play it out, I don't know how many people

[00:58:24] are so online to have seen this. Another humble trade. I'm constantly online. Everything I think about now, I'm like, I have so many humble trades. It's crazy. But Jeff said, you know, they asked him, would you ever do an all male or female season? And he said, well, it would be hard because when you look back at like the big characters, most are men. And that was like taken as a quote that people didn't love. And then he also did say in the rest of the clip, like he basically said, so what does

[00:58:52] that say about what we, what society kind of allows in men over women? I just wanted us to talk about it as two women talking about survival, which honestly in like a male dominated field is kind of rare. Do you have any thoughts about, about it? So I hadn't heard this until we were just chatting. Because you're not super online. Before coming onto the podcast. Humble brag. Because I'm zero online. Yeah. Humble brag. One of those. Don't need it.

[00:59:23] I mean, I think it's untrue that the big characters are all men for starters, but I think it's a male perception. Right. Yeah. Majority men. But you know, whenever you hear a man talk about like their idols from Survivor, they always reference other men. Usually when you hear a woman talk about their idols in Survivor, they reference other women.

[00:59:49] It's a thing where you look for yourself in previous players. And I think that, you know, you're hearing Jeff's male perspective on who the big characters are. And he's seeing himself in the men. I don't think it's like, I think about the characters that I've really idolized and seen. And that felt like a big part of Survivor to me. I think a lot of women, and I'm sure a lot of other women would feel the same way.

[01:00:18] So, you know, if that's kind of, if there's this like reflection from production that their stars are men, I think it's probably because a lot of production are men. No? No. Well, that part. I don't think that that's a true reflection of the game and even the casting or the dynamics

[01:00:43] of the people or even society at large. I think it's a male perspective. I think that's a very good point. I think that two things have been addressed, one by you and one by Jeff. And there's three things here for me. So the first part is he does address it from the social perspective. And there is an element of like society will allow men to be kind of louder and more gregarious. And I appreciate that he spoke to that part.

[01:01:13] But then for people who were like, well, it was taken out of context. He already spoke to why that might be the case. And it's not women's fault. That's still only one, I think, of three problems. So while he did address that, it was also the one thing that Jeff himself and Survivor can take no ownership of. So it's the easiest thing to address. It's like, well, it's society's fault. That's the world. It's a macrocosm of the world. Yeah. And that's only one thing. The second thing is, as you said, it's just personal bias. And we've seen this all the time.

[01:01:40] And I don't think that everyone would say that the majority of big characters are men. I think the Jeff list is different to mine. I think he has the Benz and Mikes of the world and I don't. And I know that he does. And I know that, you know, while his opinion is very important, it is just an opinion. But it's an opinion that shapes the show. We have a final three because Terry Dietz won. Is Terry Dietz a big character to Jeff, but not to everyone? And I think had he acknowledged that personal bias, it would have been taking the ownership that you talk about, about what he's seeing in kind of his subjective taste of characters.

[01:02:09] And I think that was important to acknowledge or to know himself. And he wasn't doing that. But the third problem, as has been pointed out, is how much did Survivor itself create big characters of men? As much as people might see a lot of the big characters in women, when they see men, a lot of the time it's because they were like well over edited compared to women. And at many times, especially, you know, in the past, I think we've gotten a lot better with this, but cast for different reasons. Men were cast to be characters and women were often cast to be eye candy.

[01:02:36] And I think that, especially like in the 20s, I think that was probably a thing that they were doing. You know, Survivor was creating that show. And I think that Jeff called out the easiest part of that. If he had said men are bigger characters, in my opinion, but I know that's my bias that I have to unpack, I'd have no issue. And then I'd be like, we're taking it out of context. Had he said men are bigger characters, but that's because how we've edited them, that's because how we've cast the show, we're aware of that and we're trying to fix it. Then it would have been out of context, no issue.

[01:03:06] But what he did was he addressed the easiest part of that, which is society without acknowledging like his own personal biases, without acknowledging what the show has done to at least make those distinctions bigger, if not like completely manufacture them for decades of history. Like if he were to see the confessional chart comparisons through 20 years of the show, female winners versus male winners, he would be shocked. When Dalton Ross told him there were six male winners in a row in the 30s, he was surprised.

[01:03:34] These are stats he should know and that he should call out when giving an opinion like that. I think that's the thing for me. And it's not about canceling Jeff. It's not about calling Jeff sexist. I think that you can be nuanced and being like, Jeff can be out of touch. A lot of people we love can be out of touch. He also is trying. Clearly, when he brings up that social aspect, he is trying. And we can acknowledge all of that without canceling him, but also being like, there's a personal bias here. And there's elements of the show here that need to be addressed.

[01:04:04] Jeff just needs the survivor fact checker to come in once a year and give him charts so he's aware. So he can be like, wow, that's a real difference in editing and understand why even he has that opinion and why it's so innate or subconscious because of the way the show is being created on his own personal biases. And I think that you can do and say these things without, you know, canceling Jeff. Or is that like too harsh when Jeff is clearly also trying to like understand where people are coming from at least some of the time?

[01:04:36] I mean, I think it's a cop out to say that it's, this is just how society is. And it's, I don't think it's being harsh to say it's a cop out. I think he's still trying to sell a show that he's making and marketing. And I don't know, like I would have thought that the viewership of Survivor is pretty evenly men and women. But is that not true?

[01:05:02] Because it's not about like, you know, you see it with movies and TV now where we have more, you know, women who are producing and directing and you see a difference in the way that, you know, female voices come through when there are women who are behind the scenes. And it's not because those stories were ever less interesting or that there was less of an appetite for it.

[01:05:26] It's because we all, and it's natural that we look for ourselves and reflections of ourselves in the characters that we consume. But it becomes more of a problem when the ones serving up the characters are always coming from one perspective. And that is predominantly male. I think it's, it's about that to me. It's not like, it's not a problem specific to Jeff. It's not that this is how society is.

[01:05:53] It's that we still are telling one story for one audience because those are the people making the stories rather than because there's not an appetite for it that's been well acknowledged. I don't know. Like I'm expressing myself very well here, but I feel like it's a story that's played out across multiple media, not just Survivor and reality TV.

[01:06:20] And like Australia in Venice, I think we're probably some of the worst in terms of what we allow from, you know, a whole like larrikin. I call that like the love of the larrikin. The larrikin can only be a man. Like Australia is pretty backwards about these things. But even here we're changing and we are seeing those women coming through as heroes, you know, women like Kirby, who are really getting a stage.

[01:06:49] And they're seeing that the audience loves it. And I think that changes things. But it's more about, you know, how do you get more within telling that story and creating the platform, not just the character in center stage. Yeah. I think if anything had a reckoning and evolved, like it was US Survivor, they did respond to things. They did create the diversity initiative. And I don't know how much that translated behind the scenes. I know that there are people who were grandfathered in who make a great show. So Jeff being one of them who are like all one type of demographic.

[01:07:19] And I'm not saying that those people should step away, but I'm saying those people should be informed, should have, you know, be consulted by people from different backgrounds. They've joined at the table. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And there should, of course, be a diverse workforce. And I don't really know the extent of how much it is and how much that evolved. But they did really try. And they have made massive changes and they have done so much to evolve. Like if I were Jeff, I would say so many, the quote could have been,

[01:07:46] so many men historically have been the big characters, in my opinion, the characters I've gravitated towards. But I feel that's really changing probably because we've changed the way we tell stories. And I do think that's really true of the new era as well, in a way that's excellent. And I just think the thing that needs to be changed more about that is meeting the higher ups where they, you know, with that diversity. And again, it's just hearing the other opinion, having someone who is in Jeff's ear, I'll volunteer.

[01:08:13] It can be someone else, but it can be, you know, just hearing the other side. That's like, do you understand the disparity in the confessional trance between men and women? Do you understand why that might be the case? And then maybe he doesn't go to the social answer and he looks back because he does do that and where they've gone wrong in the past and why it is getting better and why it can continue to get better and why Survivor's been on a really good track. I think my issue is often the Jeff's not hearing the other side. We said it last week and it's about sillier things like gameplay,

[01:08:41] but often the gameplay again is working to help the archetypes that Jeff specifically likes, which obviously comes with his personal bias. But when he's like, I just don't understand how anyone could like a final two over a final three. It's so much harder to beat two people. It's like, you just need to hear one person say, but it's harder to get to a final two. Like that already, just, you know, one, have you heard the other side of this argument? So it's about hearing all the perspectives. And again, I do think Jeff tries, but there are still clear gaps.

[01:09:08] And the more people who are in the room and the more diverse that looks like behind the scenes, really high up, I think it only be a good thing. So it's about just calling attention to that while still acknowledging that Jeff has tried really hard. And so US Survivor has done some amazing things and he clearly acknowledges it and cares about not just, I mean, 20 years ago, he's probably just saying they're the biggest characters. We're making progress, but we can still call out that he should take accountability and ownership over the past that Survivor and Jeff himself have done.

[01:09:35] That has added to a disparity for why at least people like Jeff see men as the bigger characters throughout history. And it's not just that it's a microcosm of society. And I think that's fair. Is there enough nuance there about, yeah, we're appreciative of everything you're trying to do and like more can always be done. And like just hearing other voices is probably like the best start on all of that. Is that fair? Yeah. And, you know, more women commentating on it. More women.

[01:10:03] And I guess being the people on the street that Jeff talks to, because doesn't he still talk to people on the street? I don't know anymore. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I think there's, yeah. Like having a man say that the big characters are all men in every exit interview where a man is asked like what was going on in the tribe. Don't you reckon? Like it honestly grates me every time I listen to an exit with a man who's like,

[01:10:33] oh yeah. And Mike and Ben and Jesse were pulling all the strings. And they're like, come on. Like, it's like, I think there's that natural bias. And having Jeff stand up there and say that men are the big characters is very much a personal opinion and not a reflection of who really are the big characters. So it's getting, like you said, more perspectives high up who can help to showcase the characters that they love as well. Yeah.

[01:11:03] And so Jeff can acknowledge that as a personal bias, be like, in my opinion, rather than being like, this is the accepted opinion. Because again, game changes are made. Yeah. Like game changes are made based on what Jeff thinks is like the status quo. But it's actually like, it's a very important opinion because he's Jeff freaking close. But it is his opinion. And I think if there was more of the like diversity of that opinion and more was heard out about, it might become more of like, you know, a little bit of a melting pot where then those decisions

[01:11:31] are made based on, you know, larger subjective opinions, but at least like diverse opinions. And as long as he's aware of the fact that it is his opinion rather than just like the, like de facto response, I think that in itself is already a start. Like all this is a start. This is season 48. You know, if we're going to get to season 100, we're going to have to hear different stories. We're going to have to find, you know, the stories that haven't been told before.

[01:12:01] And like there's this massive pool to draw from if they can think, like you said, you know, draw from the melting pot and tell, you know, give different perspectives. So I think it's a big opportunity for them as well. And we did have a lot of women talking about it. Like we had poverty leading that and like, it's lucky to have a voice like poverty. But then it became about, well, like I'll be canceling Jeff and it became kind of about the drama. And to me, that's why I really wanted to talk about it. It's like two women talking about it, which again, are like kind of rarer voices in the commentary community.

[01:12:31] Not that I wouldn't always want to talk about it, but I'm like, I will. I know my podcast is in days from now, but I'm just like holding on to talk about it because I really want to do that. And I don't want it to just be about the outrage culture. Like there is some outrage culture in life. And I don't necessarily agree with outrage culture as a concept. It's not about canceling Jeff again. It's just about acknowledging these things and like always trying to do better from every angle. While still being grateful for like the strides that have been made. And the fact that they are trying and Jeff definitely has come a long way. And I always appreciate that.

[01:13:00] It's just about, okay, like it was out of context, but the context still wasn't amazing. And there's still these other things. So like Jeff is trying more can be done. We're always appreciative. It's not about canceling him, but it's just about acknowledging it and like hoping to move forward with that. And if Jeff knew that it would be a good thing. And we still love Jeff. Like it's, we're still going to move on watching Jeff and loving Jeff next week. Yeah, absolutely. But if he, if he knew that, and if, and if the solution is there should be more voices higher up, that could only be a good thing. And it's not about canceling anyone.

[01:13:29] It's literally just about how much better that is for. And I say this without knowing what the room looks like, but that can only ever be a good thing. Right? Yeah. And just to like rewind very briefly that I don't love the idea of a boys versus girls season. Yeah. That, that anyway, it was probably not right for 2025. Kind of like if, if Jeff was boys, boys versus girls just seems to be lame. No, someone asked if he would do an all boys or all girls season.

[01:13:59] That was what the question was. Why? I don't know. That's also terrible. That's like the reason that there's not about, oh, but the men are bigger characters. It's like, no, that would be terrible. Diversity in every way has been the saving grace of the show. So yeah. Oh, like actually it kind of puts it. I didn't realize anything that like just, just do an all boys or just an all girls season. So like, to be fair, you're on the back foot there being like, that's such a terrible idea. Why are you bringing this terrible idea to the table? Sorry. But. It's true.

[01:14:28] There are a million reasons that's bad, but because the male characters is not actually one of them. Yeah. I was like, can you imagine doing this in all boys season? People would love that. Oh God. I just. Which people? Like. Sorry. Terrible idea. There would be some people who would enjoy that every week a man would get voted out, to be fair.

[01:14:58] That would be the saving grace. I just like. It's a conversation for another day, but. If we want to talk about like a microcosm of the world, we shouldn't be in situations where it's all men all working together. It's all women all working together. We should be learning in the big melting pot. But everyone should be learning to raise their voices amongst a diverse crack.

[01:15:28] It was a wild. That's crazy. Yeah. It went and it went to wild places. Now we've been talking about it for a full week. But anyway, glad we got our thoughts out on that. A couple of questions. Other than the humble traits. Matt Noll asked, the editor Thomas finished the journey second. Should Mitch have gotten the better advantage or did Thomas get it for discovering Olivia Rodrigo? Thomas discovered Olivia Rodrigo. Do you like. Really? Why did they give them different. Yeah, he did. Yeah.

[01:16:00] Wow. He's so cool. I love Olivia Rodrigo. Oh. So I didn't know how far. How far the music chase would go. But yeah, I don't know why they. Well, this is a hard question around them getting different advantages because I don't think they should ever be giving up to three advantages in these journeys. I don't. I think that they should all be making one collaborative decision anyway.

[01:16:30] But then, yeah, giving three advantages is silly and them all being different, but randomly some better than others where like clearly a vote block is not as good as a vote steal. What would Mary have gotten? Like either just give them all a meaningless extra vote or like don't do this at all. I do find it silly. I really do. So I'll make. I find it silly also. I hate random things, but at least make it like the hardest challenge gets the best reward. And then you have to decide if you do the hardest one or the easiest one. Right. Yeah. Okay. Isn't that already easy?

[01:16:59] If you're going to give different prizes, do. Right. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, do I think I can do this hard one? And then and aim higher. Or do I take the low risk and try to get the vote block? I don't even know what the third one would have been. Yeah. Probably steal a vote and a vote block. An extra vote probably. Yeah. You are so right. It's like, just give them a choice at that point or between the three of them, let it work it out where they're all going for a different puzzle.

[01:17:28] So at least they can make a decision as a group. Yeah. Anything like that. Right. You know what would be like vaguely interesting is make them say what their strength is. Be like, this one is about your, I don't know, speed. This one is about your word finding, whatever, and make them discuss amongst themselves what their strengths are. That's like vaguely interesting. Yeah. Couldn't be worse than the nothingness we got. So. Just so random. Yeah. Yeah. All right. They wanted us to sort the Hogwarts houses.

[01:17:57] Should we just do Vula and Joe? Because is Joe more Hufflepuff? He must be Hufflepuff. He's Hufflepuff. He's Hufflepuff. Through and through. He's definitely, he's an extreme Hufflepuff. Yeah. Everyone loves him. He's like crying about it. Hopefully he can weaponize his puff. I hope for that for him. I don't think so. I think he's going to quit. God forbid. Yeah. I think that he won't be able to vote anyone out. He's too pure for this game. He's not a quitter though, I don't think.

[01:18:27] Is he a fireman? No. No? Why do I think he's a fireman? No. Chrissy's a fire woman? Oh yeah, that's true. She's a fireman. So Kristen is a fire woman in Australian Survivor. The fire boss. Oh my God. Why do I want to go? I think Joe's a fire. There's been a lot of Joes in Survivor when you Google it.

[01:18:55] Okay, Joe's a fire captain. You're right. That's not Chrissy. Yeah. I know nothing. I think she's also a fire something. But maybe, anyway. Whatever. You would really think that a fire captain would be a Gryffindor though. But he is a Hufflepuff. He's against type. Against job type. Yeah, definitely. Chrissy's a fire lieutenant. That's why I got confused. And then Kristen is an aviation firefighter. Yeah, look, I knew they were a fire or something.

[01:19:25] Okay, well they might bond over that one. It's very confusing to be fair. Yeah. Okay, so what's safe? I think it is. Yeah. Is he a Slytherin or Gryffindor? I think your first thought has to be Slytherin. Because she's antisocial.

[01:19:47] But as we have discussed at length, Cedric acts like, feels like she's his daughter. So maybe that's not coming off the same on the island. I don't think you can say she's not like integrity team rah-rah. She's not Gryffindor. Well, she's a player game, honestly. No, but then she was like lying about that. Right.

[01:20:17] I just get Slytherin vibes. I think she must be a Slytherin. And then Cedric Ravenclaw. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Justin went to Yale. What is Justin? Did he? Yeah. Isn't he the pizza guy? Yeah. He works in a pizza shop. He went to help out his family's pizza shop after Yale. Yeah, he's surprising. Aw. Yeah. What did he do at Yale?

[01:20:47] I don't really understand how American universities work. Yeah. No, but going to Yale is important. It is. Like, he's either a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff, right? It doesn't seem very Hufflepuff. Yeah. I think it's like the Stoner pizza vibe. That's like the puff part of it. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[01:21:11] And because he hasn't really wielded, like, a lot of finicky strategic stuff. Hufflepuff, so much as he's been brought in by his relationships with Kevin and then Cedric. Yeah. I think it's Hufflepuff. Yeah, and Hufflepuff are by the kitchen. And he's the pizza man. Yeah. Okay. And then...

[01:21:41] That's right. What was Kevin? Hufflepuff? Is this a tribe of poor Hufflepuffs that are just on the disaster tribe with Say who's just, like, steamrolling them? Because, like, Steph and Mary might be Hufflepuffs. Is this just a Hufflepuff tribe with one Slytherin who's just, like, ridding them? Steph and Mary definitely Hufflepuff. Which is probably why they're losing so many challenges. Hufflepuffs just aren't having them. I don't know if you'd call Kevin a Hufflepuff. I was actually thinking he's, like, a rare hybrid because he looks like a Hufflepuff.

[01:22:11] Like, he's got the Hufflepuff smile. And he's just, like, so enthusiastic. He's doing everything with this big smile on his face. But actually, he was kind of, like, he wanted to be a Slytherin. Like, he wanted to cut Say's throat. Yeah. He was trying to make moves. He was, of course. He was winning Hogwarts. I think... I don't think you could actually call him a Hufflepuff.

[01:22:42] I think he was more cut. Throat more sevious than his looks. Like, if you just closed your eyes and someone told you what he was doing out there and why he went, which is because his relationships failed him and he didn't understand the dynamics, because neither did I totally get it. I'm not a Hufflepuff either. I think he's, like... I think he's a Slytherin. Yeah. You buy it? But not...

[01:23:10] He's, like, more of a hybrid. Whereas Say came in full Slytherin to this tribe of Hufflepuffs and just, like, laid waste to them. And now is, like, leading the chizzy tide with Cedric. Yeah. And it has, like, full control. Because there's only room for one Slytherin. Yeah. On a tribe. Yeah. One had to fall. It's really crazy the way that went. To be able to survive. Yeah. This poor Hufflepuff tribe of just, like, sitting ducks. Just, like, experiencing the disaster tribe. And now you've got Cedric in the middle.

[01:23:41] Yeah. The Ravenclaw. You've got Cedric in the middle now, braining it out. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Big win for the Ravenclaws. Go Ravenclaw. Well, thank you so much for joining me way past your bedtime in our pajamas to be humble. Clearly, you're ready to go straight to bed. I love it. You can just roll over and go straight to sleep. It's a great pajama party. It's amazing. I actually... I was putting my baby to bed earlier and I did fall asleep on the floor next to the cot.

[01:24:10] So this will be my second take at going to sleep. I could probably just lie down. Well, I respect that. But thank you so much for coming on to the podcast with all that you have going on. Yeah. Follow me at Shannon Gates, everyone, for all the content. Australian Survivor a million times a week. This, Survivor 48. This was great, Cedric. Thank you so much for being here. Super fun. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thanks to our team behind the scenes. I will see you next time. Bye.

[01:24:40] Australian Survivor. Survivor is safe. Survivor New Zealand. Sailor beauty. Survivor. Survivor. Survivor. Series of soon. 21 South Africans. 12 ordinary Australians. Streaming with the swam. 1 million pounds. Million euros. Million euros. I didn't hear you. Tribes very much. Survivor. Survivor. Survivor. Tribes. The adventure of a lifetime.

[01:25:10] Adventure of a lifetime. time.