Survivor Global: Leverage, Threats and Apologies | S47 Ep 4 with Thoriso M-Afrika

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[00:01:03] Survivor is safe.

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[00:01:26] Survivor.

[00:01:28] Survivor.

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[00:01:33] Survivor.

[00:01:33] Hello everyone and welcome to our HAP's coverage of Survivor Global for Survivor 47.

[00:01:38] I'm your host Shannon Guss, here to talk about Episode 4 of Survivor 47.

[00:01:43] It was a very good episode.

[00:01:44] There was a lot going on.

[00:01:45] And I feel like we summoned a couple of things.

[00:01:48] Firstly, Genevieve.

[00:01:48] Last week I was like, wow, if this is all because of Genevieve, then she is like a social queen who is being badly, badly done by the edit.

[00:01:59] And I did not necessarily expect it was that to that extreme.

[00:02:03] And it was.

[00:02:04] So we'll talk about that.

[00:02:05] And then obviously with the new era, lost votes.

[00:02:08] Someone who lost a couple of votes, you know, through her survivor trajectory.

[00:02:13] So we're always going to trigger that.

[00:02:15] And someone who I love to talk about survival with, it is the great Teresa of Africa.

[00:02:18] Teresa, thank you for being here.

[00:02:20] Thanks for having me, Shannon.

[00:02:23] No, thank you.

[00:02:24] I mean, and also I feel like when you're on the podcast, we summon great episodes because at least the last couple, we had the Sabai episode, which is, I think, one of the great new era pre-emerge episodes.

[00:02:33] This episode, I think best episode of the season.

[00:02:36] Like there's something you're doing that is good luck.

[00:02:40] Or more what you're doing in terms of your scheduling.

[00:02:43] Definitely the best episode so far in the season.

[00:02:46] Yeah.

[00:02:47] It was fantastic.

[00:02:49] I know we got, well, we got lucky and I think it's been a really fun season so far.

[00:02:53] And this, you know, builds on that because it was, it was a great episode.

[00:02:57] No, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[00:03:00] And how it's, it's, it's one of those, I don't know if I was too quick to jump into it.

[00:03:06] Actually, it's like the minute you kind of had that, that confessional with Rome saying, I'm 110% that Saul is going home.

[00:03:16] I knew that Saul is not going home.

[00:03:18] Something else is going to happen.

[00:03:20] A hundred percent, 110%.

[00:03:22] But then he got like out-confidenced by Kishon who had similar confessionals.

[00:03:28] And then that was it for him.

[00:03:30] That was the thing.

[00:03:31] It was like, is this his beautiful episode?

[00:03:33] Because everything about it was saying that leading up to that like monumental moment in the episode.

[00:03:42] So, but it was almost like, I kind of sense.

[00:03:48] He was so confident, bordering on cocky actually, because you know what happens.

[00:03:55] I have personal experience in this, in terms of playing the game is that when you are in the dominant alliance,

[00:04:03] there's a level of confidence that you have.

[00:04:06] And when you're so sure about what's going on, it almost loses out of you.

[00:04:12] You almost have to have a way to check in on yourself because it comes out in your tone and how you handle the people you're playing with.

[00:04:21] So that was, that was really worrying for him.

[00:04:25] But it was almost a bit too obvious for a CBS edit for it to have been him.

[00:04:33] I don't, I don't know.

[00:04:33] That's the sense that I got.

[00:04:36] Yeah.

[00:04:37] Well, it was difficult with the edit because the montage that they showed of Kishon where Jen's like thinking back on,

[00:04:43] clearly what you're saying, which is, you know, his way, obviously she doesn't know that he has said these things about her.

[00:04:49] But as you're saying in his demeanor and in some of his actions, she can sense, you know, being the decoy of the decoy, small things like that.

[00:04:57] And he's saying to us, like, I'm working with Jen, but I want to make her vulnerable.

[00:05:01] Like we can hear the kind of working with her, but like in kind of robbing her of her agency, we know that.

[00:05:07] And that's clearly like exuding from him.

[00:05:09] So that the point where she's like playing that all back and it's like a proper, like evil villain montage.

[00:05:14] It's like, oh, Kishon is definitely gone.

[00:05:16] So I'm grateful that we had, you know, such a, such clarity around these plans.

[00:05:21] I'm grateful for the moment.

[00:05:23] It was no way it wasn't going to be him after he had like the evil villain, like twirly mustache montage.

[00:05:30] This guy's gone.

[00:05:31] Like it's done.

[00:05:33] No, it was so beautiful and sticking his face up in the voice.

[00:05:36] I was in that confessional.

[00:05:39] It was like, penny drop.

[00:05:41] It is.

[00:05:42] It is.

[00:05:42] The crazy thing about the season is that for me, the theme is like brutal, humiliating montages.

[00:05:47] Like Kishon had, Andy had in this episode.

[00:05:49] Roma's had several.

[00:05:52] And it's just like the worst thing that could happen to a human being.

[00:05:55] I think it's just like them packaging up your worst moments to play it over like usually dodo music.

[00:06:00] And it's just like, that would be so much worse than like any other fate.

[00:06:04] I think that you could suffer on Survivor is to have that happen to you.

[00:06:07] It's the worst.

[00:06:07] And that's the thing.

[00:06:09] It's almost like, and the crazy thing about it, because again, at this point in time, there's

[00:06:14] so many super fans that get cast.

[00:06:16] You've seen it happen so many times.

[00:06:20] And to find yourself in exactly the same position with the same confessional, knowing that you've seen that a hundred times,

[00:06:30] but for some reason, you don't think it will happen to you in the moment.

[00:06:34] It was, it was a piece of magic.

[00:06:38] Yeah, it was unfortunate for some and it was good TV.

[00:06:42] Before we get into all of that, Teresa, how are you?

[00:06:44] How's, how's everything for you?

[00:06:46] Oh, I'm fantastic.

[00:06:48] I'm a Capetonian now.

[00:06:50] For about a...

[00:06:51] Maybe you were last time.

[00:06:53] Or you were about to be?

[00:06:54] No, I was going to move at that time.

[00:06:56] How is it?

[00:06:57] In the Eastern Cape, it is the most magnificent city in the world, I think.

[00:07:04] It explains why so many of us are moving here.

[00:07:07] It's absolutely gorgeous.

[00:07:10] And I'm loving it.

[00:07:12] We've settled in so well here, but very happy.

[00:07:16] That's awesome.

[00:07:17] I'm jealous.

[00:07:18] I feel like, yeah, there is a great Capetonian crew.

[00:07:20] LaRue is there.

[00:07:21] Dino moved there.

[00:07:22] You're there.

[00:07:23] I want to be there.

[00:07:26] Yes.

[00:07:27] I was there.

[00:07:27] I lived in Cape Town for like nine months when I was a kid.

[00:07:30] You were, hey.

[00:07:30] Yeah, but I was seven.

[00:07:32] I'm just trying to think who else is here from my cast.

[00:07:34] It's LaRue.

[00:07:36] It's Dino.

[00:07:37] It's Shona that is on the side.

[00:07:45] That's a fun group.

[00:07:47] It really is.

[00:07:48] Probably a lot more people, but those are the people who I've been in contact with.

[00:07:54] Well, I love that.

[00:07:55] I'm jealous of it.

[00:07:56] I'm glad that it's all working out.

[00:07:58] And you're always, I feel like you're always so connected to US Survivor and like always watching.

[00:08:02] And so, yeah.

[00:08:03] What are your like macro thoughts?

[00:08:04] We're saying we're enjoying the season, but like, what are your kind of macro thoughts on the season?

[00:08:09] So crazy.

[00:08:10] When you chatted to me about coming to do this, I probably hadn't watched the last two seasons and I had just started.

[00:08:17] Immediately proving correct.

[00:08:19] Pardon?

[00:08:20] You didn't watch the last season?

[00:08:22] Yeah.

[00:08:23] No, I didn't watch the last season.

[00:08:24] Oh, and then they really spoiled it in that montage that Gabe did.

[00:08:29] Yes.

[00:08:30] But I had just started about, about three weeks ago with season 41 because it's on Showmax.

[00:08:39] So I was like, okay, this is now my opportunity to sit down and watch, you know, US Survivor in preparation for season 50.

[00:08:48] Because I don't want to have that backlog when like an epic season comes to you and it's a returning season.

[00:08:56] So, and then you got in touch with me.

[00:08:58] So I was, I was probably about halfway through watching season 41 again.

[00:09:04] Yeah, but you, we've, we've, we've talked about most of the seasons I feel.

[00:09:08] Yeah, we have.

[00:09:10] We have.

[00:09:10] So you missed last, did you finish 45?

[00:09:14] Uh, 45, no, I didn't finish 45.

[00:09:17] I went up to 44.

[00:09:18] That was good too.

[00:09:19] Yeah.

[00:09:20] Well, you've missed the best parts.

[00:09:22] Those were all the good, that was all the good ones.

[00:09:24] 44 you could probably could have.

[00:09:26] I need to catch up.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:29] But it's also, it's, it's quite delayed on our side.

[00:09:32] And I think that was what it was when I, when I went on to show my clock, I'm saying, I was like, sure, I've got like five, six seasons to get through, which is, it's quite a lot, but I generally can do that.

[00:09:48] Okay.

[00:09:48] Forget everything I said about, about you always watching it.

[00:09:52] I thought that you were always watching all the seasons.

[00:09:54] No, I, I, I've just had a whirlwind of a year, I think is what has happened.

[00:09:59] And it's just been, I haven't, I just haven't had time this time around.

[00:10:03] That's fair.

[00:10:04] The move and yeah.

[00:10:05] But, but so are you enjoying this season though?

[00:10:08] I loved it.

[00:10:09] I loved it.

[00:10:10] I love, I love the casting of US Survivor.

[00:10:14] It's, it's, it's quite, and I do, I think I've said it in a previous, in a previous podcast that we did that it's, it's really with the new era and getting a lot more super fans.

[00:10:27] And, um, it does allow, it, it kind of forces a next level of thinking that, that just elevates the game completely different way.

[00:10:39] And I suppose that's why it is new, you know?

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:43] That's why it's so fascinating.

[00:10:44] I mean, with, with, we'll obviously get to see Australian Survivor later on in the year.

[00:10:51] Uh, how that's going to play out when you have so many old school sort of players playing in that season.

[00:11:00] Yeah.

[00:11:01] I mean, I do think that that speaks to this episode, right?

[00:11:03] Like so many super fans who are going to their second tribal council and the pre merge, and there's still like a plan on a plan on a plan.

[00:11:10] That's very advanced, but that's how kind of keyed in he shined in that, you know, these players are, and I'd love to talk about Jen.

[00:11:18] Cause she's obviously at the heart of all of this.

[00:11:20] What are your thoughts on, on Jen kind of through the season until now?

[00:11:24] Because she emerged kind of out of nowhere and I think not, not in the game.

[00:11:28] She emerged from the edit out of nowhere.

[00:11:30] And I really want to talk about that because I feel like she's been doing a lot and we just haven't seen it.

[00:11:34] Um, so yeah, what are you kind of thinking about, about Jen?

[00:11:38] I do get a sense that, um, she was obviously not going to be in any kind of danger, but the fact that Kishan felt the need to take away her agency, um, and feel that there wouldn't be any chat back.

[00:11:57] I thought it was quite questionable, you know, is it a question of him having misread her or if, if it, I suppose it depends on if it solely comes down to that moment where she realizes her name is the one thrown out.

[00:12:14] Does it, does it mean that he, she couldn't see what he was doing all along?

[00:12:19] Uh, but I think she was definitely a player that's socially been so insulated, um, that, you know, you kind of had the emergence of the other bigger personalities coming out in that, in that three person alliance.

[00:12:36] Um, and that's probably what she was a victim of in terms of the edit.

[00:12:41] I think more than her not necessarily being a capable player, because obviously we've seen that now play out.

[00:12:49] I mean, the very fact that they felt secure enough to, to pitch a name in the name of Romeo, someone who she's, she's admittedly quite close to you and everyone is aware of it and get a sense that they could feel that she would be okay with that idea, which she, she does seem okay with it at some point in the game.

[00:13:10] Um, but had to revisit it when, when it was quite clear that, you know, it would take away agency moving forward in the game.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:22] And of course, um, the fact that, I mean, she did the impossible.

[00:13:28] Uh, well, I suppose the question is the question of whether was it her or was it Rome or was it a question of Saul feeling like he didn't have an option?

[00:13:36] Um, they did make it work and that happened.

[00:13:41] So it's a combination of those things, but, but I don't think it would have necessarily happened without her at the center of it.

[00:13:49] Yeah.

[00:13:49] I mean, I agree.

[00:13:50] And I also think, you know, hearing the exit interview from, well, the exit interviews from Kishon, you know, now we know that such a major reason that they didn't go with Asia soul side last week and voted Asia out was because of how much they wanted to work with Genevieve.

[00:14:06] And I have a lot of thoughts on that, but I feel like that is such incredible social work that there's no real excuse for the edit, not showing it because it actually made this tribe really confusing and wasn't true to what was happening.

[00:14:18] So I think it's kind of worse TV where they accurately could have showed me how this big bond with Genevieve and that's the work she's doing.

[00:14:23] And she's going to win that battle really decisively.

[00:14:25] We also have a foursome and this possible pair with Asia and soul.

[00:14:29] And that would have been an interesting storyline anyway, and true to what was happening.

[00:14:33] And we would have understood it where then would have built it this week in actuality of what the dynamics were.

[00:14:37] So I don't think that there's an excuse for the edit not to show that and really blur those dynamics.

[00:14:43] Um, I think that that is probably my biggest criticism of the season to this point in the way that it's been constructed, but for Genevieve, she, so she's a huge part of even being here today.

[00:14:52] You know, like they could get rid of her last week and they choose not to not out of fear, but well, maybe there was a little bit of that, but like mostly it seems due to wanting to work with her.

[00:15:01] And I think that's phenomenal because I think that that is really bad for Tini and Kishon and amazing for Genevieve.

[00:15:09] Like I said last week, if that's the reason and we're not seeing it somehow, then that would be really, really bad for them to give her the option of Rome, Genevieve and the vote steal.

[00:15:20] I feel like Tini and Kishon liked her so much and trusted her and underestimated her and misread her so much that they flipped the leverage where they could take out Genevieve, even if they like her more.

[00:15:30] They still like Asia and soul and they could have, you know, taken her out and then Asia and soul are never going to work with Rome.

[00:15:36] And they still have that leverage where Asia and soul relying on them.

[00:15:39] Now they were fully relying on Genevieve. Genevieve at any point could flip on them, flip with Rome.

[00:15:45] Rome and Genevieve had all the power with the vote steal.

[00:15:47] So they actually minimize their own agency.

[00:15:50] They've all the power to Genevieve and misread that she would use it against them.

[00:15:54] So huge criticisms on that misread and on that, I guess, like falling for Genevieve's like ability where she outplayed, I think, you know, two seemingly very competent players in Tini and Kishon.

[00:16:06] She's about to take out.

[00:16:07] Yeah, so I'm very harsh on it and I'm very, very high on Genevieve and how she worked through last week to even get to the point where this is something she could do.

[00:16:16] And she was just so ridiculously socially insulated here.

[00:16:20] Yeah, there's so much of it that actually does go back to the previous episode in terms of the decision that they made.

[00:16:26] Yes.

[00:16:27] And whether or not, I mean, if it was something they were going to consider, I suppose they couldn't have gone for Rome because everybody...

[00:16:36] They couldn't go for Rome.

[00:16:36] They wanted to go for Rome.

[00:16:38] And then they happened because they couldn't.

[00:16:40] They were choosing between Genevieve and the pair and they chose Genevieve.

[00:16:43] And that is a decision I think they will...

[00:16:45] They are regretting probably.

[00:16:47] But wasn't there a dialogue where they questioned the possibility of Rome playing as idol on Genevieve?

[00:17:11] Oh wow.

[00:17:14] They never thought that Rome would play the idol on Genevieve, which I think we said was fair.

[00:17:18] They invented it to protect Genevieve.

[00:17:20] It's even worse.

[00:17:22] Like it's so...

[00:17:23] Oh my, it's killing me.

[00:17:24] It's killing you, right?

[00:17:25] Because like, what do you mean you invented the threat to protect her, to give her all the power and just say, Genevieve, fingers crossed.

[00:17:31] Like you have all the power and we're in your hands.

[00:17:33] We just don't think that those hands are going to crush us.

[00:17:36] And then they did.

[00:17:37] It blows my mind.

[00:17:38] Like they invented the thing that we tied ourselves in knots to work around.

[00:17:42] For them.

[00:17:43] And they created it.

[00:17:44] For her.

[00:17:46] And we didn't even see her.

[00:17:47] And she was that purple.

[00:17:48] It's actually an outrage.

[00:17:50] But anyway.

[00:17:52] I have so many thoughts.

[00:17:53] I just can't believe that.

[00:17:54] It's just spending 20 minutes on the Challenger.

[00:17:58] Well, no, I mean like, they have 90 minutes.

[00:18:01] And even more.

[00:18:02] I think that it's been fun.

[00:18:03] But like, but how did they leave Genevieve?

[00:18:05] Like she was so crucial.

[00:18:07] And they just left her out.

[00:18:07] I don't even know.

[00:18:09] And that should be, as I suppose it was, this was her coming out party.

[00:18:14] And then her rise to prominence in this episode.

[00:18:17] But it's, I think it's also probably because even with that, I would still say in that trial,

[00:18:24] that the tension between Saul and Rome still got more screen time because so much hinged around, around that.

[00:18:33] So what you have as a scenario, that dynamic is so big within the tribe.

[00:18:40] They have to give us the bits and pieces, every single step from, you know, Romeo is so adamant that Saul must go home and Saul disliking him.

[00:18:52] And just like the arrogance around it, where the way in which he talks to him is so belittling.

[00:19:03] And then him having to go on an apology to her afterwards.

[00:19:08] Yes.

[00:19:09] We can talk about that apology.

[00:19:12] That's how you should apologize to someone.

[00:19:15] What was it like?

[00:19:15] I'm sorry if you, if you got the impression that I, yeah, that's not an apology.

[00:19:22] That's not an apology.

[00:19:23] That was why I got the sense that there's no way that he bought into that.

[00:19:28] He voted for him because he felt he had no choice.

[00:19:32] I think it was more of that than, than him actively flipping to working with Romeo.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:41] I want to talk about that from Saul's perspective, but before we get to Saul.

[00:19:45] So, but okay, this is very impressive from Genevieve.

[00:19:48] Is it the right move for Genevieve?

[00:19:49] Like Genevieve is tight with Kishon and Tini and has some now like number ones in obviously Rome and also Saul that she's created in this episode.

[00:19:59] Um, a lot of good options for someone who again is like, apparently the puppet master doing all of this and is that socially ingratiated.

[00:20:07] Do you think, cause I feel like on one, in one hand you have what she has now, which is like more individual, more cut up.

[00:20:13] She still has something with Tini.

[00:20:14] She's obviously got Rome.

[00:20:15] She's got soul, but none of them have each other, but she's really close to all of them.

[00:20:18] So she's at the center, but it's not a group and it's like individual bonds.

[00:20:22] Whereas like if she does vote out Rome, then like souls on the bottom, she's definitely making a merge.

[00:20:27] So she's like third and then she has like kind of a three with Tini and Kishon and maybe like a bit of like a fraction four with soul.

[00:20:33] So it's kind of like the group versus like being at the center of the individual stuff.

[00:20:36] And so, and obviously she makes a big move to get there.

[00:20:39] So that speaks for itself.

[00:20:40] Um, and then like, there's obviously the duality of working with Rome and having him here versus working with Kishon and how he feels about her.

[00:20:47] So there's a lot to consider around if this was even good for her to do beyond how impressive it was that she got to do it.

[00:20:54] I think it was the right decision.

[00:20:57] Actually, I toyed around with this because one, I think we've discussed the whole question around her agency.

[00:21:04] There's far more agency in this situation where she's in a position where pretty much everyone who's left there, um, has a working relationship with her.

[00:21:14] So she's, she's at the center and basically nothing can happen without her in the sense that between Rome and Saul, uh, the friction there is such that on both their sides, they refuse to work with each other.

[00:21:30] Um, we'll see if something changes during the course of the season where they can put that aside.

[00:21:35] Right.

[00:21:35] There's so much tension that's been built there.

[00:21:38] It's pretty clear that they've reached the point of no return between the two of them.

[00:21:42] Um, yeah.

[00:21:43] And then I think she, I think she's capable of pivoting with teeny because I think that's, that's actually probably the most significant relationship that just to go back and, and urge her.

[00:21:56] Uh, and obviously because she felt she's lost her number one and she, and if she had any idea, I mean, you know, her decision at the journey, it affected, it came from a place of strength.

[00:22:09] And then she realized that making that decision could have created these options.

[00:22:16] Maybe she would have approached that differently.

[00:22:18] Um, and then of course there's Rome.

[00:22:21] Um, and then of course there's Rome.

[00:22:21] He's just saved Rome.

[00:22:22] And he was the guy who was about to go home.

[00:22:26] So he is attached to her to the hip.

[00:22:29] And if there's a single person in that tribe that he's likely to be loyal to, it would be her.

[00:22:36] So I think she's incredibly insulated.

[00:22:38] Um, I think it was a very well calculated move.

[00:22:42] Um, I do think though it is dependent on how she manages the fall back.

[00:22:50] Um, and what subsequently happens with Tini and the soul, because the reality of it is that they will both realize that if Genevieve and Rome are a pair, they're going to have to make something work with either one of them.

[00:23:07] So it, it, she is in a position where she is the kingmaker.

[00:23:13] Yes.

[00:23:13] And she has relationships with people like Rome.

[00:23:15] Rome doesn't have another relationship in the game and he may never have another relationship in the game, given the type of play that Rome is.

[00:23:21] I don't think he will.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:23] So.

[00:23:25] And he finds someone else that.

[00:23:27] Who?

[00:23:28] Like, I don't like this.

[00:23:29] Even in making it to merge.

[00:23:31] I still don't see that there's a lot of potential necessarily for him to make relationships.

[00:23:35] And this is what I criticized on Tini, Tini and Tishon last week, thinking that they were choosing the Rome Genevieve pair when they apparently were kind of always going back to Rome.

[00:23:45] Although Tini on the journey felt it was maybe between the two, but, um, I said, you know, like you're going to be with someone who is a shield, but who can't necessarily make relationships.

[00:23:55] So if there's a, if there's a big kind of con to this move for Genevieve, I think it isn't having to work with Rome long term.

[00:24:01] I do think if anyone could do it, it does seem to be her because clearly her social game is like beyond anything we can possibly even remotely understand from a human being.

[00:24:08] Um, given, you know, the, what she's achieved in that.

[00:24:11] So I think that's the biggest con on everything else.

[00:24:14] I think she made the right move because, because of her agency.

[00:24:17] Like I wouldn't do it because Tishon has the resume, like it's the pre-merge, but I would do it on Tishon's deciding my fate.

[00:24:23] Tishon has an approach as you're saying a demeanor and energy exuded that, you know, diminishes her agency.

[00:24:30] My name will be thrown out.

[00:24:31] Tini's name won't be thrown out.

[00:24:32] Um, I'm, you know, I'm the third, which might be comfortable, but again, it's just putting your game into their hands, which she doesn't need to do.

[00:24:39] She has the power here to flip that.

[00:24:41] Um, so, and also I think that that group is still small.

[00:24:43] You still need to build allies.

[00:24:45] You're still not having majority at the merge.

[00:24:47] So considering it's not like giving up a majority for the individual relationships, I think like several pairs compared to like a three, you may as well go with the pairs.

[00:24:56] And it's so impressive and you get the agency, which I think is, you know, is good for her.

[00:25:02] I will say, I kind of feel like it was a 60, 40 decision, like staying with Tishon and Tini is still fine.

[00:25:07] They are really, really tight with her.

[00:25:10] Um, but I think she's in the position where she has the luxury of choosing a number one in Rome or what might've been Sol if he'd been a target, you know, where they're, she's their number one, where she's a number two for Tini and Tishon.

[00:25:23] Being someone's number two is actually pretty good. Being the decoys decoys plan isn't that bad.

[00:25:28] And, you know, having a plan where Rome's going to be the target, maybe that's the biggest red flag, but she's a part of that too.

[00:25:34] All of that is kind of fine, but she's in the position where all the options were good, which speaks to her position and she can choose a slightly better option.

[00:25:42] And I think it's 60, 40. And I think she, uh, to the right side, but like, honestly, they were both, they were both fine because she came, she was in this tribe where every single person in the tribe had a top one or two.

[00:25:52] And that's a very good position to be making decisions from.

[00:25:57] So I also think that, I think for me, it's also mind blowing how, no matter how much survival we watch, um, players don't learn that throwing people's names out can be such a game changing dynamic to it.

[00:26:15] It's, it's, it's, and if you're going to have to be that person to do that, at least be the one to communicate it to the person.

[00:26:24] Um, in that way, you're in a position where you can manage it better.

[00:26:28] I think, I mean, we've all watched so much survival where people think they're safe or they're in with people.

[00:26:35] Um, and then that's not necessarily the case by throwing someone's name out there.

[00:26:41] You immediately introduce the question of what is actually happening.

[00:26:46] What if what I think is happening is not what's happening.

[00:26:49] And that's when, um, the processing of, okay, maybe this is not the best thing for me.

[00:26:57] And I think that that's, ah, that's Kashawn's era on, on, on this one.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:04] Um, I think it was the little, the little moments that like revealed intention.

[00:27:09] And the intention is I want to work with her where I'm in control and that's not what she wanted.

[00:27:13] He didn't realize he was revealing that cause it is subtle and he does want to work with her.

[00:27:17] But when I hear him in confessional hearing language, you know, the language around it, you know, I want to separate her from Rome.

[00:27:23] That makes her vulnerable.

[00:27:24] It's not the kind of working relationship I would want versus now everyone's vulnerable to her.

[00:27:29] So he was revealing parts of that in small things, even like being the decoys decoy, the hierarchy was clear.

[00:27:35] And, and for teeny and Kashawn, they're like, we saw, you know, we saw it as pairs.

[00:27:40] Asia said it was pairs, but also possibly that we were three with Genevieve.

[00:27:43] But if they, if she knows that, and she does, she knows she's the third, maybe she doesn't want to be the third wheel.

[00:27:49] Okay.

[00:27:50] To the point where if Keyshawn can only throw out two names, Teenie and her, it's her.

[00:27:55] So it's all of the, they're little things again in a game that is marginal because all the options are good, but they do exist.

[00:28:04] And I do think I'm always a fan of kind of like grabbing your own agency when you're in the power position to do so and like making good on that.

[00:28:11] If you can.

[00:28:14] And also just the process of just keeping someone on who's not going to be able to work with anyone else.

[00:28:20] Not only on their shield, but in the sense that.

[00:28:24] Also was fun.

[00:28:25] Pardon?

[00:28:26] It was also fun.

[00:28:28] And it really is because he has been, Ram has been so entertaining as well.

[00:28:34] It would have been really sad to see him go home.

[00:28:38] So I can't picture what would happen.

[00:28:41] I think someone like Rome is going to go pretty deep actually.

[00:28:47] Because there, there, there are elements of delusions of grandeur that, that just showing you that he's probably not really as aware of what's going on as he believes he is.

[00:29:02] Oh, well, I should think so given that he was going home, you know, five minutes before the end of this episode.

[00:29:12] And, you know, Genevieve, Genevieve to be fair saves him because she wants her relationship with Rome.

[00:29:17] So he's, he's doing that.

[00:29:19] Like you have to credit the relationship that he has with Genevieve where she's going to vouch for him and kind of put him first there.

[00:29:25] But he had no idea that he was about to be blindsided, you know, use the vote steal wrong.

[00:29:30] He's putting everything into teeny and kishan.

[00:29:32] He's not even saying I want to keep the vote steal because what if we get to four and we're two pairs?

[00:29:37] But he'd definitely be gone.

[00:29:38] You know, he, let alone, he's not even going to make it there.

[00:29:40] Even how he read the previous tribal council was, was incorrect.

[00:29:44] His understanding of what had happened.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:48] Well, they, they were doing it to get him out next.

[00:29:50] And he's like, I want to keep this for our lives.

[00:29:53] Like Stephen was saying, he was so shocked and heartbroken that he'd given everything to the Alliance and they were not working with him.

[00:30:00] And he was about to go home.

[00:30:02] So yeah, he like, if anything for Rome, the things were not going nearly as well as he thought they were going.

[00:30:09] Yeah.

[00:30:10] But I have, I'm really fascinated to see how he ends up.

[00:30:14] Do you think he's more likely to gravitate towards Saul or Tini after this?

[00:30:20] Neither.

[00:30:21] Neither.

[00:30:22] I feel like...

[00:30:22] Because he's got a broken heart and his disdain for Saul is like, maybe unjustified.

[00:30:29] But it's, it's so much that he just, I think he can't help himself, but be nasty to him.

[00:30:35] Yeah.

[00:30:36] There's two moments that make me laugh.

[00:30:39] The first one is when he's walking with Saul to threaten slash give an ultimatum to Saul.

[00:30:44] And he's like, okay, this is going to be scary.

[00:30:45] And Saul's like, what?

[00:30:47] So that speaks to that relationship.

[00:30:49] And then the other part is like, I was, when I was watching the episode and Keyshawn's giving his final words and they're like holding up the vote.

[00:30:55] He's like, Rome is like angry when he's like voting, you can tell he's mad.

[00:30:58] So in how that will kind of like play out with Tini, I think he doesn't have anyone but Genevieve.

[00:31:02] And I think that, that, that bond we can credit, but beyond that, there are issues.

[00:31:07] Like, what do you think about Rome in this episode?

[00:31:09] He's at 110 all the time, you know, full tilt completely almost gives new meaning to, to full tilt.

[00:31:15] Won't let Saul basically even go to the bathroom at this point.

[00:31:20] Um, what is that how he needs to play?

[00:31:23] Are we criticizing like the clear, like social misplays?

[00:31:27] Like he's just, he's an insane character.

[00:31:31] Socially, he's, he's so awkward and completely unaware of it.

[00:31:36] I think, um, to the point that what I read into it was that like the, the level of aggression was such that it was so uncomfortable to watch towards Saul.

[00:31:49] Like you could have a buddy system on steroids and, and not be that aggressive, you know?

[00:31:57] So, um, but the fact that he was so in your face, I'm going to be here and aggressive.

[00:32:05] I think it's the underlying aggression that I thought, Oh, this guy is, is, is really this relationship is, is, it's beyond anything else.

[00:32:18] And my question around it is, you know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's again, a reflection of what happens to people when they think they're safe in the game, when they feel like they're insulated.

[00:32:33] Because remember, in terms of where he was, he felt that he was in the safest.

[00:32:39] Alliance, he, he loved his people, he felt that they were reliable.

[00:32:43] And so because of that, he was othering the people on the earth.

[00:32:49] Um, and then, and that, and that's what was manifesting.

[00:32:52] So that you just need to go, he hasn't thought beyond what happens when Saul leaves.

[00:32:59] And then process that, or how is this coming off?

[00:33:04] Because it's, I suppose, yeah, I think for about five minutes, when you do get on, onto the island, you are very conscious in terms of how you're, you want to appear on TV.

[00:33:14] And then you kind of forget that because once you're in the game, um, and he's clearly completely unaware.

[00:33:22] There's, there's no sense of awareness.

[00:33:26] Um, and, and that's probably part of, of what, um, is to the benefit of Genevieve is that she's, she's in, she's in a position where she can hold his hand and push him through.

[00:33:41] Okay. This is what you need to do.

[00:33:44] And he trusts her to do that.

[00:33:47] I don't think he'll listen to her.

[00:33:49] Pardon?

[00:33:50] Well, I don't think he's going to listen to her.

[00:33:53] He did apologize, I suppose, because he's lying.

[00:33:57] I can't call it an apology, Teresa.

[00:33:58] This is what he said.

[00:34:00] If I came off threatening or whatever you may think, or whatever you may think.

[00:34:04] See, this is the issue.

[00:34:05] This is the, that's not an apology.

[00:34:06] If I came off threatening, there's no accountability of whatever you may think.

[00:34:10] So the onus is on how soul is perceiving that and receiving it and not on, I'm sorry that even that, okay, this is even to flip the line.

[00:34:19] I'm sorry that I made you feel threatened that I made you like, put the onus on it when you're apologizing, apologize for your actions and not that you may think whatever.

[00:34:27] It's not, that's not an apology.

[00:34:30] Yes, I agree with you.

[00:34:31] It's not an apology, but he did do it.

[00:34:33] It's a bad apology.

[00:34:34] It's a really bad apology.

[00:34:35] He did do it because he felt he had to.

[00:34:38] But can I say, you and you have a child, so this is what, he honestly seemed like when like a parent tells a child, like, go apologize.

[00:34:46] Like, you couldn't look him in the eye.

[00:34:48] He was in and out beyond even the way it did that track.

[00:34:52] Like, have you had that in your own parenting where it's like, you apologize to that person and it's like, sorry.

[00:34:58] No, 100%.

[00:34:59] That I can relate to.

[00:35:02] But he did it.

[00:35:04] He did it.

[00:35:05] Yeah.

[00:35:06] I can't give points for an apology like that.

[00:35:09] It isn't an apology.

[00:35:10] He did.

[00:35:11] He did do it.

[00:35:11] He did.

[00:35:12] I think that like, you know, he like at the point though, when Genevieve comes in his own self interest and is like, I'm the person you trust most on the speech and they're all turning on you.

[00:35:21] Um, he has to turn firstly on Kishan.

[00:35:24] So that's the first thing he doesn't necessarily need.

[00:35:26] He, they don't need souls number at all.

[00:35:28] And I'm sure they're aware of that from a, you know, you can count it on one hand kind of vote structure.

[00:35:33] But if you know, maybe there is a bit of how Genevieve can kind of control Rome at the point where she's like, I want soul and he does it even though they don't need the number.

[00:35:41] So that is a credit.

[00:35:44] I think more, a small credit.

[00:35:47] I think for Rome, like I back that he needs to be at 110% all the time because that's the Rome gameplay.

[00:35:53] So when he's following soul, like he does need to follow.

[00:35:56] It's so scary.

[00:35:58] If I was with him on a beach, I'd be so worried because he's so volatile.

[00:36:04] He's so, he's so out there.

[00:36:08] It's, it's, it's the type of personality that that's okay.

[00:36:11] If you're the person working with them and nobody knows about it and you're the person they trust and nobody knows about it.

[00:36:18] But you can't even get to a point where you can talk that type of personality through what you're thinking in terms of brainstorming ideas around what must happen in terms of the moves in the game.

[00:36:34] And, and so for me, the only value they add is that they're a number and they're a shield.

[00:36:42] A very loyal number.

[00:36:43] I think to someone like Genevieve.

[00:36:45] Yes.

[00:36:46] Who could possibly find trinkets that will help her.

[00:36:50] And he used to think it now very well.

[00:36:54] Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:55] He's, you know,

[00:36:57] Possibly what determined the outcome of this.

[00:37:00] Yeah.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:03] Yeah.

[00:37:04] And then that's why I think he needs, he needs to make sure he's guarding someone like soul.

[00:37:07] He needs to make sure he's the one looking.

[00:37:09] He's the one finding and that is antisocial, but I don't think it needs to be rude.

[00:37:13] Like there are definitely ways he can soften that.

[00:37:15] I do think it needs to be extreme.

[00:37:17] Even like, wow, you look really bad.

[00:37:19] Not letting soul go sit on the beach just to have a break.

[00:37:22] And people are like, he's not treating soul like a human, but to his credit, to be fair, when soul goes and sits on the beach, we can see him making that very pivotal bond with Genevieve.

[00:37:30] So yeah, like leaving him alone is bad.

[00:37:34] Unfortunately, you do have to babysit him in this really, really patronizing way.

[00:37:37] But I do think that there are things that no one can justify, which is the way he talks to him and the extremity of that, which I think you could do much softer.

[00:37:46] Does he perfectly have to be on top of him like that?

[00:37:48] I think that was, I just couldn't breathe just watching that.

[00:37:52] I mean, you must, oh my word.

[00:37:55] Can't he just at least, you know, meter, two meters personal space.

[00:38:00] And I think that was the bit that, that just like made me cringe and made everyone else uncomfortable.

[00:38:08] What did you think about stealing Kishon's vote?

[00:38:11] Because I feel like the duality of that is if Kishon has an idol, he will play it.

[00:38:17] But there is the very social thing, and this has to be Genevieve's influence and idea of like, you can steal soul's vote still.

[00:38:25] Even if soul's in on the plan, you can steal the vote because then we're going to blindside Kishon.

[00:38:28] But I think that socially, after everything that had happened was like, you know, such a great apology trying to bridge that.

[00:38:35] For soul, considering his vote to him was a shot in the dark, I think, you know, as a potential ally in the hope of bridging that, taking away his agency of using a shot in the dark, if he so chooses, I think would have really upset him, even if they don't vote him out.

[00:38:48] So there's like that social kind of option in, you know, going with that.

[00:38:53] But then what you're doing in doing that is alerting Kishon.

[00:38:57] So there's the risk of that.

[00:38:59] So did you like that you took Kishon's vote?

[00:39:01] I think that was the correct decision.

[00:39:03] And I think it was calculated in the sense that it hinged on whether or not they thought Kishon had or didn't have an idol.

[00:39:11] And I think that comes down to the relationship that Genevieve would have had with Kishon.

[00:39:16] Yeah, you can only make a decision like that based on a measure of certainty in terms of what is where in the trial.

[00:39:27] So I do think it was the correct one, correct decision because only because Genevieve had managed socially the relationships to the extent that she would have known had Kishon had something.

[00:39:44] Yeah, I agree. I think that it's worth like a small risk for what Genevieve especially is trying to do and bringing Sol in.

[00:39:53] And again, you mentioned so let's talk about it from Sol's perspective, because you mentioned that Sol, you know, he has to do this.

[00:40:00] Right. Like, yeah, like he knows at the point where Kishon's vote has been stolen, that it's not him because if it was him, they just wouldn't they wouldn't even give him the chance to play Sean the Dark.

[00:40:11] Like there's no point trying to blindside him when you could just completely suffocate his whole game and take away his vote.

[00:40:17] He knows that they have three votes to do it. So he's either piling on with at this point the majority or not.

[00:40:23] So we don't actually know if Sol would wanted to do it. We see them having the conversation.

[00:40:28] And we see, yeah, we see three votes that are going to be anyway on Kishon and then Sol piling on.

[00:40:33] Do you think he would have? I'm like, I'm a little bit up in the air about that one.

[00:40:42] I'm also up in the air. I feel that's probably the missing part in the edit that they could have given us a greater sense of what he felt subsequently when he felt that he didn't have a choice.

[00:40:57] I do get the sense that he doesn't trust them. He's obviously not going to work with them moving forward, but feels that he must play the game in order to place himself.

[00:41:13] Sorry. Can I play? No, no, no, no.

[00:41:17] Ask him to come on here and give his world's best apology.

[00:41:21] Teresa's son is here. Hello, you're on video. This is in the podcast now.

[00:41:28] Okay, please. I'm all... I'll give you a shot and I'm good, okay?

[00:41:33] Sorry, you're almost... The answer is no.

[00:41:35] Sorry, you're almost... No.

[00:41:40] I need the apology. Who's better? A nine-year-old?

[00:41:43] It was in the video. Oh my.

[00:41:46] He's a star now.

[00:41:50] So, where was I? We're talking about Sol, haven't we?

[00:41:54] Yeah, Sol. If he's... Yeah.

[00:41:56] So, I get the sense that... And this is where social game...

[00:42:01] I have come to learn probably more in my second outing on the game than the first time I played that,

[00:42:08] sure, the social game is so much more important than people actually realize.

[00:42:13] Right? Because there's a very real consequence to having people not wanting to have you around.

[00:42:19] Just being the guy that nobody wants to have around limits you in so, so many ways.

[00:42:26] I mean, if there were anyone else in Rome's position and there hadn't been an existing tension,

[00:42:34] he could have given it half a thought and there'd be potential for a future relationship,

[00:42:39] future alliance moving forward.

[00:42:41] But what I think is going to happen is that, come merge time, these guys are probably going to be more fractured

[00:42:49] than any of the other tribes by the looks of things.

[00:42:53] Not just because of this decision, but it will be a question of wherever Genevieve goes,

[00:42:59] is more likely to be the side that will dominate in the post marriage.

[00:43:06] If she's smart, I mean...

[00:43:08] Yeah.

[00:43:08] Which we know she is.

[00:43:10] She's established that.

[00:43:11] What's a lot to manage.

[00:43:12] So, on a great situation where you're not picking off anyone else.

[00:43:16] And I also think...

[00:43:20] Okay, we'll talk about that when we get to the journey.

[00:43:22] But I think to get to a point where you are the guy that one guy is completely not prepared to work with

[00:43:31] is really speaks to how poor your social game is.

[00:43:36] For Rome or for Sol?

[00:43:37] No, no, no, for Rome.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:40] You never want to create that situation.

[00:43:43] I mean, from anything else that we've gotten, I don't think Sol did anything wrong.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:51] It's hard to put it on Sol.

[00:43:53] I don't, obviously.

[00:43:55] He's not antagonizing him.

[00:43:56] Is there something we're missing that maybe we're not seeing in there that caused this?

[00:44:03] If anything, he has the patience of a saint.

[00:44:06] Like, I really loved Sol's incredulousness through this entire episode.

[00:44:10] Like, he was just like, am I being punked right now?

[00:44:12] Like, is this an elaborate prank where I get put on this tribe with Rome and this is actually a paid actor?

[00:44:17] Because it can't be real.

[00:44:18] And I really enjoyed that energy from Sol the whole time.

[00:44:21] So I do think, yeah, it's going to matter how Genevieve manages it.

[00:44:26] And it's very, very tricky.

[00:44:28] And she probably will have to make a choice at a point.

[00:44:30] And I think that could be Sol.

[00:44:31] Like, if this tribe goes back to tribal council, I think maybe, like, it depends on how Rome acts coming back from this.

[00:44:36] Rome could be cut.

[00:44:37] Teeny could be cut.

[00:44:38] I actually think Sol will least be cut.

[00:44:39] So whether Sol was going to do it or not, I do think we have to commend Sol that he wasn't as on the bottom as we thought.

[00:44:49] They were going to go for Rome.

[00:44:50] So that already is like better than I thought.

[00:44:53] Then he, so then they're going for him.

[00:44:55] And now he's also manifested that or like built that from being what would have been next out had they, and again, we don't know if he's really doing this.

[00:45:03] Is this on Genevieve?

[00:45:04] But he, through a combination of things, through Genevieve and also through making the relationship with Genevieve, I think now is like probably top two.

[00:45:12] Where he should have been maybe even out here and definitely would have been next on the chopping block if they go back to tribal, if they were to before emerge.

[00:45:19] And it was like Teeny, Kishan, Genevieve and then him.

[00:45:23] So he's really built that.

[00:45:24] And I think the most impressive thing that he did was definitely the bond with Genevieve.

[00:45:28] I thought that was really great.

[00:45:30] And I think that could be almost the winning duo at this point, which is kind of shocking where we started with the two of them.

[00:45:35] So I really hope, I really hope he said yes to Genevieve because I think she's his lifeline.

[00:45:41] And I hope that Genevieve, you know, a lot of what she was doing was contingent.

[00:45:47] I think we kind of heard her kind of verbalize that on Sol wanting to do it, even though she didn't need him from a numbers perspective.

[00:45:54] So I'm just hoping that he would have done it and that Genevieve knew it and it was more collaborative.

[00:45:59] And, you know, she can do it anyway without him.

[00:46:03] But then as we're saying, there are cut up numbers and then the Sol relationship isn't as close.

[00:46:06] But if she's really getting Sol in and she's gone out of her way when she doesn't need his number to bring him in.

[00:46:11] If she's really like relying on that, I think that makes it especially good and makes the decision even clearer in doing this.

[00:46:19] Whereas if Sol wasn't into it, then maybe you think, OK, let me, you know, if he's like, I will never like he's never going to work with Rome anyway.

[00:46:27] But like if he's like even feels distant from you, then maybe you want to kind of connect more to like Tini and Keyshawn specifically than just kind of having Rome and maybe Tini.

[00:46:36] It just it corners her a little bit, whereas now it feels like she has a really good Sol option, a really strong Rome option and a possible even Tini option.

[00:46:43] So I hope for her it even pushed a pretty tweener decision anyway, made that stronger.

[00:46:49] And that Sol also wanted to do it because it bettered his position so, so much and would have done it anyway.

[00:46:56] But we don't know because his number was irrelevant and he knew.

[00:46:59] And also you get the sense that Genevieve held back, you know, when he said he doesn't want to work with Rome and she didn't push and actually come out and say, we can't do this without you.

[00:47:13] Yes, she didn't give him a threat or ultimatum. Vote for Rome or Rome's going home.

[00:47:18] I mean, vote for Keyshawn or Keyshawn's going home anyway.

[00:47:21] That's how you get the knowledge branch.

[00:47:23] Actually, it's actually crazy how much the opposite is true.

[00:47:26] She didn't need his vote and was so much like so collaborative and made him probably feel important.

[00:47:32] Which is, which is, which is unbelievable because his vote actually like that could have been the real threat.

[00:47:37] It was like, do it or don't, but we'll see you tomorrow because Rome is going to be here because we don't actually need your number.

[00:47:43] Yeah. And this is why I feel we can't gauge anything from him actually having voted with them because it was at this point he realized that they were going to get it anywhere.

[00:47:55] What is the point of antagonizing someone you're going to be stuck with when you return from council by putting their name down?

[00:48:05] Even if, you know, he clearly has this name for you.

[00:48:10] Yeah. But my, but my hope is that for Genevieve, the decision is so much stronger if Sol is like in and like less against his actual agency.

[00:48:21] Well, I mean, it is against his agency because he doesn't need it, but more kind of enthusiastically in that.

[00:48:26] That's why she even goes with it to make the decision.

[00:48:29] Although to be fair, at the point where she's to be fair at the point where she's already told Rome before Sol, they have the votes.

[00:48:39] He's in like, he thinks he's apologizing to Sol does feel like the train has left the station, but I do like to think that for Sol, cause it's so much in Sol's best interest.

[00:48:48] And I want to commend Sol on this and to do that, you know, voting, obviously wanting to vote this way, even against the emotionality, which ironically is what Keyshawn articulates at tribal council about like how you have to look past kind of those relationships in the game.

[00:49:03] It's so much better for him and it betters his position so, so much.

[00:49:07] So I hope that knowing that he had to do it anyway, that he realized the betterment of that position and at least made it seem to Genevieve that he was like grateful for how this was going to be better than coming back to taking out Rome and then being the next on the chopping block anyway, which is not the vibe.

[00:49:22] Like, you know, with two people, with Keyshawn who already voted against him.

[00:49:25] Yeah, it's a pity we didn't get a congressional of him not processing that to that extent in terms of getting an, I suppose, then they would have given the vote away.

[00:49:37] Well, they did anyway.

[00:49:38] But he knew what the vote was going to be anyway.

[00:49:41] They try to put it down to like, I can't make it work without Sol and Rome, but it's like they could numerically and Rome definitely would numerically because the options were him or Keyshawn really, you know, like she's not voting for Sol.

[00:49:51] And he's going to steal the vote.

[00:49:54] So like at that point it was done, you know, it was done for Sol.

[00:49:57] It was done for the viewers and still the question mark in the edit that they left was around.

[00:50:03] Is this going to happen?

[00:50:04] Is Sol in when it didn't materially matter?

[00:50:08] And I think that like the confessional coming back from Sol, that's what I'm really interested about, about whether he's like, I did not want to do that.

[00:50:13] Because even with like at tribal council, he said to Genevieve, like, I don't know what to do now.

[00:50:18] Yeah, but it's not even about, but there's like, I would have actively not done it versus I didn't love it.

[00:50:25] But like, yeah, that's my game.

[00:50:27] Like that was best for my game.

[00:50:28] I think there's a difference around like, I don't want to do it, but I need to do it versus like, I have to do it.

[00:50:35] Does that make any sense?

[00:50:38] Yeah, I guess, I guess, like I said, for me, he had no choice.

[00:50:42] It was the most sensible thing.

[00:50:45] Yeah.

[00:50:46] In his position.

[00:50:48] Yeah.

[00:50:49] The edit definitely made it seem like, can't do without Sol.

[00:50:52] Whereas like, yeah, at the point where she goes to Rome and Rome believes her, you know, he's, she's not voting for Sol.

[00:50:59] So what he would have put two votes on Sol, I guess we could have got like a 2-1-1 and maybe Sol's voting for Rome and she's voting for Keyshawn.

[00:51:08] Yeah, unlikely.

[00:51:09] He's going to vote with Genevieve at the point where she's like, you're the other target.

[00:51:12] So I do appreciate though that she tried to bring Sol in.

[00:51:18] And I feel like, yeah, for Sol, here's my question for you.

[00:51:21] Threat or ultimatum, what was Rome doing?

[00:51:24] Is there a difference?

[00:51:25] And what do you think it was?

[00:51:28] He was definitely threatening him.

[00:51:31] I know, he was.

[00:51:32] This can I tell you, and can I tell you why?

[00:51:34] It's because, and this is the same thing that happened at the journey.

[00:51:37] It's like either give up your vote or you lose your vote.

[00:51:40] Well, those two things are the same.

[00:51:42] So that's actually not an ultimatum because that's not a decision.

[00:51:45] That's a threat.

[00:51:46] And the same thing with what Rome was doing, which is like, give me your shot in the dark or I will take your shot in the dark.

[00:51:53] Well, either way, I'm losing my shot in the dark.

[00:51:57] Especially because the Genevieve decoy, ironically, given how much drama it caused, was not believable coming from Rome.

[00:52:03] And it was so clear that the only reason he would be doing that would be to take his shot in the dark.

[00:52:08] So from a like, and Sol to his credit, again, much like last week is like, clearly this is what you're doing.

[00:52:13] Like says it to his face.

[00:52:15] Which is amazing, I know.

[00:52:17] Yes, he can see that.

[00:52:18] It's priceless.

[00:52:19] But I wonder if, you know, sometimes as players, you get caught up in wanting to do, and I think this is a reflection on Rome as well.

[00:52:32] Yes, I've spoken about the lack of social awareness and the aggression.

[00:52:37] What I read at least as aggression that he may not necessarily see.

[00:52:44] But it's also that desire to want to do everything yourself.

[00:52:52] What does he feel that he must be at the center of instigating and making things happen?

[00:52:59] If you're that secure in terms of where you are in the game.

[00:53:05] And I think even him feeling that he needs to pitch that idea is questionable for me.

[00:53:13] Yes, it's a great idea.

[00:53:15] It was sensible.

[00:53:17] But I think him feeling that he had to be the one, you know, to see it through is where the problem is.

[00:53:27] And it comes back to a lack of awareness and inability to trust other people to work on a plan with you, for you, in the game.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:41] There's a lot.

[00:53:42] I don't even, there's so much with this tribe.

[00:53:46] I'm not like just thinking about how, yeah, going to Seoul after the point that you've told Rome.

[00:53:52] And there's just nothing else.

[00:53:53] And so much was put in, in Seoul's agency, which he actually had none.

[00:53:57] I hope he's not like mad at Genevieve.

[00:53:59] Maybe that's like the one, but she really did go out of her way.

[00:54:01] She didn't even need to tell him.

[00:54:04] They did try.

[00:54:05] They did try to include Seoul.

[00:54:07] They don't even steal his vote.

[00:54:08] They come to him when they don't need him.

[00:54:11] I hope he like, I hope he feels bonded by that to Genevieve.

[00:54:15] I hope so too, but Seoul comes off pretty smart to me and quite reflective.

[00:54:23] I think probably out of everyone, he might have, apart from Genevieve, a clear view of what actually happened leading up to this.

[00:54:36] And so it's just, I think, a question of whether he feels he needs that alliance moving forward and what he's going to do about it.

[00:54:47] Because it's quite clear that he loves Genevieve and would like to work with him.

[00:54:53] But, you know, Rome is a part of that equation that he can't necessarily help.

[00:55:00] I think a lot of this is on how Genevieve is going to manage all of that and it's very difficult.

[00:55:05] And I'd love to talk about Tini and Kishon in that because I feel like they gave themselves quite a tall order, which was like, hey, we're going to work with Genevieve.

[00:55:12] We're going to like kind of split the duos to get into like, if we get to a final four, we're in like a 2-1-1 situation where we take out Asia and then Rome.

[00:55:23] And then we have Genevieve with us as a three.

[00:55:25] And then we have Sol and we're bringing people back, which to their credit, to Tini's credit, as an example, like I don't agree with the decisions.

[00:55:33] And I think that they and Kishon very much underestimated Genevieve and have suffered for that.

[00:55:38] But I do have to credit the social game because even coming back from voting for Sol and voting and like being a part of his ally going home, she's saying sorry and he's like comforting her.

[00:55:48] And I'm like, well, that's impressive.

[00:55:49] So that I think is impressive.

[00:55:51] I had that moment.

[00:55:52] I was like, girl, you're gay.

[00:55:55] The next level.

[00:55:57] Yeah, it's not a social perspective.

[00:55:58] That's amazing.

[00:56:00] I think that is where her secret power lies is that the power of vulnerability in the game.

[00:56:08] Because I think part of it is that it's not that she was playing it.

[00:56:12] It was she was she was genuinely feeling I couldn't bring myself to do this.

[00:56:20] Because I wouldn't be more likely to trust someone like that who would have, for whatever reason, that's so funny, because I'm the person who did that as well.

[00:56:30] Could have saved myself and chose not to because I couldn't write someone else's name down.

[00:56:37] And that's someone who you're more likely to trust moving forward.

[00:56:41] And you know that whatever it is that they give you is genuine Israel and probably more reliable than anyone else there.

[00:56:53] Yeah.

[00:56:53] It's a double edged sword because it was very sweet that she wouldn't write down Asia's name.

[00:56:58] I was like, oh.

[00:56:59] But then I was also like critical because that's not good.

[00:57:04] You know, like well done for bringing soul back.

[00:57:05] But like the allies didn't know.

[00:57:08] So that's very unreliable.

[00:57:11] And you've now voted for soul.

[00:57:13] Now you have to bridge that.

[00:57:14] And you do, which is impressive.

[00:57:15] But the point where you have to do that.

[00:57:17] And I said last week, I'm like, that split doesn't make any sense.

[00:57:20] Like at worst doesn't make sense.

[00:57:21] And at best is like overly cautious and incredibly antisocial with soul.

[00:57:24] And was done for social reasons for someone who isn't going to be a juror.

[00:57:28] And to be fair, like is part of a podcast community that Teenie feels very strongly about.

[00:57:33] But that might not be enough of a reason as adorable as I think it is.

[00:57:36] So I have to be critical of it.

[00:57:37] But you are right that that emotionality, that vulnerability, that kind of softness is what draws people to Teenie.

[00:57:45] And has someone like soul comforting Teenie, even though his name was written down, you know, by Teenie, not 10 minutes ago.

[00:57:53] So it's both of us, but I still am critical of it.

[00:57:56] Yeah.

[00:57:57] Yeah.

[00:57:58] And then so the way that they were looking at it, like how do we kind of look at this for Keishon and Teenie?

[00:58:02] Because it's just, it's kind of devastating.

[00:58:04] Teenie and Keishon who were ruling the tribe, who seemed to have every option.

[00:58:08] Keishon's now out of the game.

[00:58:09] Teenie is reliant on soul, who they voted against, on Genevieve, who just blindsided them and voted out their number one ally.

[00:58:18] How do we look at that?

[00:58:19] Like where did it go wrong?

[00:58:20] Was it, was it in trusting Genevieve fully?

[00:58:23] Was it in going with Genevieve, which was fine, but then trying to take out Rome?

[00:58:28] Like where do you put, where did this like completely derail?

[00:58:32] Where's the problem?

[00:58:34] I think this, this often happens when you have someone away from camp for a bit.

[00:58:40] And then ideas start flowing.

[00:58:42] And she kind of comes back, listens to the idea.

[00:58:46] It was really, the sense that you got was more that she was indifferent to it than anything else.

[00:58:53] And she's probably the person who had the least agency in that, in that discussion, because they made the decision without her.

[00:59:02] And when she got back, it was like, oh, okay, rubber stamp.

[00:59:06] I don't have a vote.

[00:59:09] I do think, though, it is quite questionable.

[00:59:16] I mean, we're not talking about the journey.

[00:59:19] Placing yourself in that position when you are the person going into tribal council.

[00:59:24] That's there.

[00:59:28] Fortunately, it wasn't her because she knew that she was insulated enough.

[00:59:32] But so much changed in that time.

[00:59:35] I just questioned that decision.

[00:59:38] But there was no way that she could have known.

[00:59:42] I think Teenie is still pretty safe, actually.

[00:59:50] Well, we do.

[00:59:51] It does come down to whatever works for Genevieve.

[00:59:55] But I think she has such a good social game in the sense that in a tribe of four people,

[01:00:02] she knows that in his heart of hearts, Sol is the person who doesn't want her to go home,

[01:00:07] even though she cast a vote for him.

[01:00:10] Which then brings you to Genevieve.

[01:00:13] There's obviously a conversation that's going to be had there.

[01:00:17] And I get the sense that there's an underlying where she's not necessarily going to be

[01:00:22] the choice to go home.

[01:00:24] I think what it comes down to is what her relationship might be with Rome.

[01:00:30] What his response is to, you know, you knew that they were trying to vote me out

[01:00:36] and you didn't fight for me.

[01:00:38] But knowing him, it will most likely escalate.

[01:00:42] But we'll see.

[01:00:43] Maybe he might change his ways and decide that he's not going to play that type of game

[01:00:49] and rather try and work it out.

[01:00:52] But I just, of the four people that are there, apart from Genevieve,

[01:00:59] I still think her social game is so strong that I don't think any of the others would want her gone.

[01:01:06] Yeah.

[01:01:07] Just a lovely person to have around.

[01:01:09] Yeah.

[01:01:10] Well, Teenie doesn't know.

[01:01:12] They have a confessional.

[01:01:13] The voting confessional is, I don't know what's about to happen.

[01:01:15] And if you think about it from Teenie's perspective,

[01:01:17] if Sean's vote has been stolen, Teenie could be the target.

[01:01:20] A hundred percent.

[01:01:21] You know, between that pair, if Genevieve's looking to erode that pair,

[01:01:24] which is clearly what's happening, it's kind of like a 50-50.

[01:01:27] But you also have to credit that Teenie's name is not heard.

[01:01:30] And, you know, 60% of this tribe has very legitimate plans against them.

[01:01:35] And every other name is at least spoken about for Teenie.

[01:01:37] So there's a social installation while the strategic game is kind of falling apart.

[01:01:41] For me, like I question, for me, the biggest thing was putting it all on Genevieve.

[01:01:45] I think even just going with Asia and Seoul and, you know,

[01:01:49] even getting down to a four where they'd already approached Seoul and asked,

[01:01:52] like, what if we have to get rid of Asia?

[01:01:53] And Seoul had been amenable.

[01:01:54] So you can think Asia is like a possibility at four.

[01:01:56] We might not even get to that point.

[01:01:58] That to me is the plan.

[01:02:00] But yeah, even more so this, I think if you're going with Rome and Genevieve,

[01:02:04] or if you're going with Genevieve, go with Rome and Genevieve.

[01:02:07] Like they also then put it on Genevieve to turn against Rome.

[01:02:12] They put so much in her hands and then gave her an incentive to flip

[01:02:15] by taking that agency, by targeting Rome.

[01:02:17] And I know that Genevieve was a part of those conversations,

[01:02:19] but there's a misread in how much she wants to do that

[01:02:22] or how much of a benefit Rome is or she's snowing them

[01:02:24] and all of that is a credit to Genevieve and a discredit to them.

[01:02:27] But they were trying something very, you know,

[01:02:29] more difficult and going into the 2-1-1 structure

[01:02:31] and having basically total control to do anything.

[01:02:34] And they'd have to well outpace everyone on the tribe to do that

[01:02:38] because it's hard.

[01:02:39] And they just simply didn't do that.

[01:02:40] So that's like my biggest thing with Tini and Kishore.

[01:02:42] And I feel like I would have just gone with the safe pair in Asia and Seoul.

[01:02:46] And at the point where I'm not doing that,

[01:02:47] I probably would have stuck consistently with like Rome and Genevieve.

[01:02:50] And Tini doesn't vibe with the intensity of Rome.

[01:02:53] And that's a decision you've made when you've gone with that pair.

[01:02:55] So then they're trying to dial it back, take out Rome, cut it all up,

[01:02:59] really slice and dice through the tribe, which is hard.

[01:03:01] And I think thought maybe they were so strategically outpacing everyone

[01:03:04] that they could do that.

[01:03:05] And they weren't.

[01:03:06] So that to me is kind of like the criticism of how we get here.

[01:03:09] But in terms of the journey, like I'm not critical of Tini

[01:03:11] for giving up their vote.

[01:03:14] Again, it was a threat.

[01:03:16] Yeah.

[01:03:17] No, I'm not.

[01:03:17] Well, because, because firstly, and what we know,

[01:03:22] Tini's vote is the most losable, right?

[01:03:25] Like the bird's eye view that we have, like Andy can't get his vote.

[01:03:28] Like Andy, we know is on the bottom.

[01:03:30] Andy doesn't, I think, know that Sam has an idol to protect him.

[01:03:33] He doesn't know that Anika has lost her vote.

[01:03:34] So he really like, he's like, that's the 3-2.

[01:03:37] That's his possible shot in the dark that if he doesn't lose it,

[01:03:39] that's his leverage.

[01:03:40] That's everything.

[01:03:41] Andy simply cannot.

[01:03:42] And I think that seeing Andy on the mat,

[01:03:44] that's very believable and true.

[01:03:46] Caroline to a degree, but like lose your vote.

[01:03:49] People find out it's like a possible 2-2 if Tiana goes with Kyle.

[01:03:52] You don't like it either.

[01:03:54] It's hard for me to see how Tini's vote would really matter.

[01:03:57] I mean, this is a 4-0, you know, let alone if Saul doesn't do it,

[01:04:01] it's a 3-1.

[01:04:01] Like what is the situation where Tini's vote specifically is so important?

[01:04:06] It would have to be Rome wising up alone to steal a vote,

[01:04:10] to take it to a 2-2 at worst.

[01:04:11] You're okay.

[01:04:12] Like Tini's one vote.

[01:04:14] Again, Tini's social bonds are the main thing.

[01:04:16] So either they're going to come off or not.

[01:04:17] I don't think it's as much about the vote.

[01:04:19] And while it is scary to go to tribal council tonight,

[01:04:21] you also have somewhat of a luxury of not necessarily knowing the dynamics

[01:04:24] because those flipped around before the vote in just a couple of hours,

[01:04:28] but the iteration.

[01:04:30] You know that you will lose it tonight before a swap.

[01:04:34] It's the most controllable because it's right there right now.

[01:04:38] And for Tini, again,

[01:04:40] considering the other two were kind of off the table,

[01:04:42] you're going to lose your vote anyway.

[01:04:43] It's not like we could all walk away.

[01:04:45] Maybe then you choose to walk away.

[01:04:46] I would totally understand that.

[01:04:47] But at the point where, again,

[01:04:49] it's a threat of you all lose your vote anyway.

[01:04:51] This is the equivalent of like a bully coming up and being like,

[01:04:54] give me your lunch money.

[01:04:55] Or if you don't,

[01:04:56] I'm just going to punch you and take the lunch money.

[01:04:58] It's like, I might as well not get punched.

[01:05:00] Like she might as well get the social capital

[01:05:02] and whatever is in the box

[01:05:04] when I do think that they could give up the vote.

[01:05:06] And I don't think that's what changed anything.

[01:05:07] I think that trusting Genevieve,

[01:05:10] giving it all to Genevieve,

[01:05:11] putting Genevieve off with a Rome target,

[01:05:13] misunderstanding that those choices,

[01:05:15] I think vote or not,

[01:05:17] are what come back to bite Tini and Kishan.

[01:05:19] And Kishan's part of that that we've discussed.

[01:05:21] And I don't think it's about Tini having a vote or not.

[01:05:24] Do you think she managed to build the social capital though?

[01:05:27] Yeah.

[01:05:28] With Andy and Caroline.

[01:05:30] I do.

[01:05:31] And well, yes.

[01:05:32] Do you?

[01:05:34] I just thought that that was quite questionable

[01:05:36] because they were so keen to protect.

[01:05:41] And I think now,

[01:05:45] because of what's happened in a tribal council,

[01:05:49] there's more likelihood that she would go back

[01:05:52] and revisit those ponds from her side, you know?

[01:05:55] Yeah.

[01:05:56] And I think going into a merge situation,

[01:05:59] she's probably better off because of what has happened.

[01:06:02] Yes.

[01:06:03] I mean, that's the social capital that you get.

[01:06:05] And the thing is, I love this three.

[01:06:07] Andy, Caroline, and Tini.

[01:06:08] I was upset thinking,

[01:06:09] oh no, there's an amulet that's going to put a bounty

[01:06:11] where they'll be incentivized to work against each other.

[01:06:13] But now that it's a new amulet,

[01:06:14] I could see them working together.

[01:06:16] Like I could definitely...

[01:06:17] People try and target each other.

[01:06:19] Well, this is like the amulet has been a bounty until now

[01:06:22] because there's been no benefit in working together.

[01:06:25] Now it's a fairly even advantage.

[01:06:27] The bounty was fun.

[01:06:30] Terrible for the players, but fun for us.

[01:06:32] But now it's quite even.

[01:06:34] So I could see them working together to get rid of the bounty

[01:06:37] that has doomed so many players because there is something there

[01:06:39] because Andy's on the outs, because Tini's on the outs.

[01:06:42] Like these are some workable players who now have something

[01:06:46] that they could actually collaborate on.

[01:06:48] So I do think...

[01:06:49] Do you not think that this is something that might come off

[01:06:51] for the three of them?

[01:06:54] It's weird and see.

[01:06:55] I get the sense that...

[01:06:58] Because of what happened in this tribal council,

[01:07:01] I think she's more inclined to make it work moving forward

[01:07:04] because, again, you go back and you're not sure

[01:07:08] if you trust the people that you trusted from day one.

[01:07:11] So I think there's a greater incentive to make that work

[01:07:14] from Tini's side.

[01:07:15] And obviously the incentive was always going to be there

[01:07:18] from Andy's side because his position in the tribe is precarious.

[01:07:23] And not necessarily for Caroline, I don't think,

[01:07:26] but we'll see.

[01:07:30] Yeah.

[01:07:31] I think of the three...

[01:07:33] Well, of the three, at the time that they went out,

[01:07:37] Tini and Caroline were probably in safer spots.

[01:07:42] But coming out of this tribal council,

[01:07:45] you'd probably have a situation where Tini is more inclined

[01:07:48] to want to make it work.

[01:07:50] Yeah.

[01:07:51] And these are all tribes that have gone to tribal council.

[01:07:54] These are all tribes that kind of have, like,

[01:07:59] their own baggage.

[01:08:00] So no one has a majority.

[01:08:01] Even Caroline, who, as she says, is in a good position

[01:08:03] on her tribe, that's still a three, maybe a four.

[01:08:07] Like, and even then, there's, like, you know,

[01:08:09] Tiana saying, I'm scared of Sue, you know,

[01:08:11] and we'll talk about that.

[01:08:12] So none of them have a majority.

[01:08:14] You know, that's the three-tribe format.

[01:08:16] All of them are incentivized to work together.

[01:08:18] And now they have something that actually could help

[01:08:20] them work together.

[01:08:21] Like, that's genuinely beneficial to the three of them combined.

[01:08:25] So I think that, you know, using it early to kind of secure

[01:08:28] something would work for at least Andy and Tini,

[01:08:31] if not Caroline too.

[01:08:32] And Caroline seems to want to.

[01:08:34] So I think there's actually something here, which is great.

[01:08:37] What did you think about them all telling everyone about it?

[01:08:41] Like, the only names we didn't see told about it were Rome,

[01:08:43] who was a presumptive boot at that point,

[01:08:44] and Sol, who I hope Tini told as well.

[01:08:48] Mind-blowing.

[01:08:50] I think they must have decided to tell everyone.

[01:08:55] Yeah.

[01:08:56] There's no way that that just happened,

[01:09:00] which I suppose feeds into what you're saying,

[01:09:02] that there probably is sort of a working relationship

[01:09:06] that's already at play there.

[01:09:08] Yeah.

[01:09:11] And that reaffirms that.

[01:09:13] But that's mind-blowing.

[01:09:14] I think that's good.

[01:09:19] It's necessary.

[01:09:20] It doesn't make for fun television,

[01:09:23] but it's what you need to do for your longevity in the game.

[01:09:27] So...

[01:09:28] Yeah.

[01:09:29] I think, I mean, it makes sense to me because,

[01:09:31] I mean, Kieran once had this great point on the podcast,

[01:09:34] which is like, if one person knows about something,

[01:09:36] assume everyone does.

[01:09:37] Like, you cannot control these two people you've just met.

[01:09:39] If we're all going to keep it a secret,

[01:09:41] you can't control that.

[01:09:42] So you may as well get ahead of it.

[01:09:43] I think what's awkward about that is,

[01:09:44] assuming they decided it together,

[01:09:46] it's like, we might as well tell everyone

[01:09:47] because we can't trust each other.

[01:09:49] You can't say that out loud.

[01:09:50] But I do think that you can say,

[01:09:52] and Rob said this on Know It Alls, and I agree,

[01:09:54] let's tell everyone.

[01:09:55] This incentivizes them to keep us

[01:09:57] because if they get rid of me, Tini, as an example,

[01:10:01] now they've just made it a two-person item

[01:10:03] and you guys can work on it just together.

[01:10:05] And they just incentivize two people on other tribes.

[01:10:07] At least I'm like a conduit to this power to them

[01:10:09] rather than empowering people they don't know.

[01:10:11] So I think that was good from everyone

[01:10:13] and I think that it made a lot of sense.

[01:10:14] Did you like the journey?

[01:10:17] This was a...

[01:10:20] I actually did.

[01:10:22] I like that there was a breath of fresh air.

[01:10:25] Like, I think I've said this to you in a previous podcast.

[01:10:27] I've often wondered why

[01:10:29] they don't just put everything down

[01:10:31] and have a proper chat to catch up

[01:10:33] as to what's happening.

[01:10:34] Can I get a sense of where you are at your tribe?

[01:10:40] You know, how do we feel about what's going to happen?

[01:10:43] And that's the sense that you've got in this case.

[01:10:45] I think it works out so much better

[01:10:48] when you can possibly see seeds

[01:10:51] of what can happen in future,

[01:10:54] you know, being planted in a journey like this.

[01:10:59] Yeah.

[01:11:00] But they did talk about it.

[01:11:01] You know, they did talk about their standing.

[01:11:04] This is my biggest thing about the journey.

[01:11:07] After I ranted last week

[01:11:09] about like diplomacy

[01:11:10] of like sending people on the boats

[01:11:12] and how did they choose Andy?

[01:11:14] How did it happen?

[01:11:16] We've got to win the ability

[01:11:17] to choose who goes on.

[01:11:18] And they're all just like,

[01:11:19] yep, Andy, the person who's clearly on the bottom.

[01:11:22] The person who's three of the five of us.

[01:11:23] Yeah, like I didn't even see any scissors paper off.

[01:11:26] Like what?

[01:11:27] The person is at the bottom.

[01:11:28] The person is the most volatile as well, all right?

[01:11:31] The person who on the mat was like,

[01:11:33] none of them like me

[01:11:34] and then immediately gets to the journey

[01:11:35] and rightly is like, I'm a free agent.

[01:11:37] You do what you want.

[01:11:38] I'll be there.

[01:11:39] Like from a power perspective,

[01:11:41] from an information perspective,

[01:11:43] from the fact that like for Sam, it's good.

[01:11:46] Obviously for Sam, like, you know,

[01:11:48] he can even risk Andy losing his vote.

[01:11:50] Like he has an idol.

[01:11:51] He can kind of like have Andy do that

[01:11:54] and that's fine.

[01:11:56] And like, anyway, Annika's lost her vote.

[01:11:58] So he's going to rely on Sierra anyway.

[01:12:00] They should have like a three to one advantage.

[01:12:02] If Andy loses, it's two to one.

[01:12:04] He wouldn't, I don't think do it without Sierra

[01:12:05] as much as they must align and we can talk about it.

[01:12:07] But Sam, it's fine.

[01:12:08] For the women,

[01:12:11] like you're sending someone

[01:12:13] who could definitely get something really defensive.

[01:12:17] If he has an idol, like what's,

[01:12:20] and they know that Sam has an idol.

[01:12:22] I think for Sam, it was the most,

[01:12:24] he stood the most to benefit from Andy going,

[01:12:27] short of him going himself.

[01:12:29] He stood, he's the only one who benefited.

[01:12:32] He and Andy, like,

[01:12:32] I don't understand how anyone allowed this to happen.

[01:12:34] But I think that speaks to his influence within his tribe.

[01:12:37] I mean, he has been the sort of,

[01:12:39] the voice of what is really going on in that tribe.

[01:12:44] Yeah.

[01:12:45] So he, he must have feared it.

[01:12:48] There's no other way that that would have happened.

[01:12:52] Otherwise, you know?

[01:12:53] I think it's just that people are too nice

[01:12:54] around these journeys.

[01:12:56] And he's like, I want to go.

[01:12:56] And no one wants to be like, no, Andy,

[01:12:58] because it's rude.

[01:12:59] This is what we spoke about last week.

[01:13:00] But like, I genuinely like have to wonder,

[01:13:04] like, aren't they concerned about the fact that he could,

[01:13:06] even if he, well, they don't think if he,

[01:13:07] if he gets a vote steal,

[01:13:09] well, they know Annika's lost her vote.

[01:13:11] So even that could like tie something up.

[01:13:13] Like, I feel like for,

[01:13:14] especially like Annika and Rachel specifically,

[01:13:18] you know, you're relying on Sam.

[01:13:20] They, they don't necessarily know how dicey that is,

[01:13:23] but you might want to send Sam

[01:13:24] and maybe have less kind of risk to you.

[01:13:26] Or you might think we need Sam anyway.

[01:13:27] He has an idol.

[01:13:28] Hopefully he's with us.

[01:13:29] If not, we're screwed, kind of.

[01:13:30] So I'm willing to even like,

[01:13:33] for someone like Rachel,

[01:13:34] like risk my vote as well.

[01:13:35] Or someone like Sierra,

[01:13:36] whose game is like kind of in flux.

[01:13:39] You know, okay.

[01:13:40] Well, I think for Sierra,

[01:13:41] maybe if her game's in flux,

[01:13:42] it's like, hey, send Andy.

[01:13:43] If he loses his vote,

[01:13:44] then that makes it even easier to go with the women.

[01:13:46] If he gets some power,

[01:13:47] okay, I can still go with that.

[01:13:49] There are bigger issues in Sierra's game,

[01:13:51] I think.

[01:13:51] But I just don't,

[01:13:52] I just don't understand.

[01:13:54] Like if he gets something defensive,

[01:13:56] if he gets an idol.

[01:13:58] Yeah.

[01:13:58] Even a vote steal in what is now like a four person vote,

[01:14:01] even just giving the information.

[01:14:03] I don't understand.

[01:14:04] I will rant about this until they stop sending the people on the bottom

[01:14:07] to the journeys.

[01:14:10] I think as well,

[01:14:12] what it does come down to is that.

[01:14:16] Yeah.

[01:14:17] As someone who.

[01:14:20] Kind of went on the first trips.

[01:14:22] And both seasons.

[01:14:24] Everybody wants to go.

[01:14:25] Right.

[01:14:26] But you have to create a metric or a way of doing it.

[01:14:29] In such a way that it doesn't look like you want to go.

[01:14:33] So when you have a situation where.

[01:14:37] Someone wants to go,

[01:14:39] but you don't necessarily want them to go.

[01:14:42] You have to create a lie or something,

[01:14:45] a smarter way to say no to them.

[01:14:50] I'm just thinking like,

[01:14:51] I remember in,

[01:14:52] in our season.

[01:14:55] When.

[01:14:57] With the outcast.

[01:14:59] When we did the swap.

[01:15:01] When.

[01:15:02] When.

[01:15:03] Tejan ended going.

[01:15:04] There was a whole lot of discussion because.

[01:15:07] Steffi wanted to go.

[01:15:08] And we're like,

[01:15:09] no.

[01:15:09] We're going to send someone who.

[01:15:11] Hasn't been there before.

[01:15:12] And I had to be the person to say that because.

[01:15:15] Well,

[01:15:15] you have to.

[01:15:17] I had to.

[01:15:18] You have to send.

[01:15:19] Pardon?

[01:15:20] Jeff says that you have to.

[01:15:22] Yeah.

[01:15:23] Yes.

[01:15:23] So I could.

[01:15:24] I could be the only person who could say that legitimately.

[01:15:28] But disqualify myself in the process.

[01:15:30] But actually the person I wanted to disqualify was her.

[01:15:34] Yeah.

[01:15:34] And take the risk.

[01:15:36] Yeah.

[01:15:38] You know,

[01:15:38] drawing rocks or whatever.

[01:15:40] To see who ends up going.

[01:15:42] Yes.

[01:15:42] It so happened in our case that it happened to be a person we didn't want to go.

[01:15:46] But.

[01:15:48] You're more likely to work with.

[01:15:50] So it's.

[01:15:50] It's.

[01:15:51] It's such a.

[01:15:52] It's such a delicate dance that you have to do with stuff like that because.

[01:15:57] The minute.

[01:15:58] It's.

[01:15:58] It's like people searching for idols.

[01:16:00] Everybody knows everybody does that.

[01:16:03] Everybody knows everyone wants to find them.

[01:16:05] But the minute.

[01:16:06] You go out on your own.

[01:16:08] There's a tag that goes with that.

[01:16:11] I know.

[01:16:12] There's a legitimate reason not to trust Teresa because she's gone out and done that.

[01:16:17] So it's.

[01:16:18] It's really sort of a question of the narrative that you create around.

[01:16:23] How that process.

[01:16:25] Unfolds.

[01:16:26] But for the women.

[01:16:27] And again,

[01:16:27] like I'm really pushing to go on the journey.

[01:16:28] And I've always said never go on the journey.

[01:16:30] Compared to Andy,

[01:16:31] like right before emerging for the women,

[01:16:33] you know,

[01:16:33] the breadwinners,

[01:16:34] as the name suggests.

[01:16:36] They can fricking do a puzzle.

[01:16:38] Like it's.

[01:16:38] I thought it might've been like a,

[01:16:39] you know,

[01:16:40] like ironic foreshadowing.

[01:16:41] Like they're about to lose.

[01:16:42] Like,

[01:16:42] no,

[01:16:42] they just fricking killed the puzzle.

[01:16:43] Isn't it like,

[01:16:44] um,

[01:16:44] yeah,

[01:16:44] Rachel,

[01:16:45] you,

[01:16:45] you earned us the spot.

[01:16:47] You go,

[01:16:48] you know,

[01:16:48] and like who could possibly begrudge that that is a hundred percent true.

[01:16:51] Like,

[01:16:51] I just feel like,

[01:16:52] you know,

[01:16:52] it's wrong because if any of the other tribes won,

[01:16:55] they would have chosen Andy.

[01:16:56] So you don't want to make the same decision that your opponents are going to make.

[01:17:00] I just don't know how,

[01:17:01] like it from the women's perspective from Sam.

[01:17:03] Good.

[01:17:03] You know,

[01:17:03] for Sam,

[01:17:04] he has an idol.

[01:17:04] He's got,

[01:17:05] you know,

[01:17:05] Andy could maybe get something else.

[01:17:06] He really wants to protect Andy.

[01:17:08] Again,

[01:17:08] like from a vote perspective,

[01:17:09] you still need Sierra.

[01:17:11] You still want to rely on Sierra.

[01:17:12] So you don't even need really Andy's vote considering Annika's lost hers.

[01:17:16] And I think he knows that.

[01:17:17] I assume they told him.

[01:17:18] So,

[01:17:19] you know,

[01:17:20] for Sam,

[01:17:20] fine for the women,

[01:17:22] less so Sierra considering her position,

[01:17:23] but like,

[01:17:24] I just,

[01:17:24] I don't know how.

[01:17:25] And now it's becoming my bugbear.

[01:17:26] I think I'd love to talk about that tribe.

[01:17:28] Because I think there was some really interesting stuff here.

[01:17:30] And there's so much good strategic content in this like 90 minute episode.

[01:17:34] What did you think about this,

[01:17:36] this kind of information going from Sierra?

[01:17:40] They just,

[01:17:40] they create the breadwinner name Alliance.

[01:17:43] And again,

[01:17:44] very fair name can crush a puzzle.

[01:17:46] Um,

[01:17:47] so then Sierra tells Andy and then Andy goes to Sam,

[01:17:50] like who's right and wrong in this like journey of information.

[01:17:53] Um,

[01:17:54] I would probably say Sierra.

[01:17:56] She didn't preempt that,

[01:17:58] that Andy and Sam will probably curse her at that point in time.

[01:18:02] Or,

[01:18:03] or she hasn't figured out like how insulated Sam actually is.

[01:18:09] Because she wants to work with Sam.

[01:18:11] I think my general rule is that if you're in a tribe and you're the person,

[01:18:18] you're,

[01:18:18] you want to work with a particular person because you like them.

[01:18:23] Say for argument sake,

[01:18:24] and you think they can and Barbie or whatever.

[01:18:27] You've got to,

[01:18:28] at least at the back of your mind,

[01:18:31] have a sense that whatever it is that you see in that person,

[01:18:36] everyone else on the tribe can see as well.

[01:18:39] If there's a natural inclination to want to work with that person,

[01:18:43] the likelihood is that everyone else can see it as well.

[01:18:48] I think that's a,

[01:18:49] that's a very basic way of,

[01:18:53] of deductive reasoning in terms of determining who's you and,

[01:18:56] and,

[01:18:57] and how they may be.

[01:18:59] I think that's really interesting.

[01:19:00] I think that kind of almost speaks to the Kishan part,

[01:19:02] which is like,

[01:19:02] there might be a truism and it's so true for you that it's maybe wrong to

[01:19:09] think that other people aren't also sensing the kind of clarity of that.

[01:19:15] Right.

[01:19:16] Yeah.

[01:19:16] Is that like,

[01:19:17] you know,

[01:19:17] like,

[01:19:17] is that kind of the point,

[01:19:18] you know,

[01:19:18] like for them,

[01:19:19] it's so obvious that they're drawn to each other,

[01:19:21] that other people could also see that for Kishan,

[01:19:24] there's such a confidence.

[01:19:25] It might feel really like internal for him,

[01:19:28] but it,

[01:19:28] it's so clear that people can see it comes out.

[01:19:32] Exactly.

[01:19:32] Yeah.

[01:19:33] And,

[01:19:34] and that's why it's so tricky because again,

[01:19:39] it's so difficult.

[01:19:40] I know I've been caught in that position.

[01:19:43] A few occasions where I've been in a dominant alliance,

[01:19:46] you see it.

[01:19:47] And then you almost have to reel yourself in because it,

[01:19:52] it comes out in,

[01:19:53] in so many unconscious ways,

[01:19:56] where suddenly you're not pulling your weight around camp.

[01:19:59] I don't feel like doing it.

[01:20:01] Whereas if you were the guy who knew you were in trouble,

[01:20:04] you make a more concerted effort,

[01:20:07] you know?

[01:20:07] So,

[01:20:09] I think that's that.

[01:20:11] I think,

[01:20:13] I don't know why she felt the need to share that,

[01:20:18] particularly with Andy and not necessarily with that,

[01:20:21] because my biggest fear is that we've already established that Andy's so

[01:20:26] volatile.

[01:20:27] He just,

[01:20:28] you know,

[01:20:28] he blurts things out.

[01:20:31] By virtue of telling him,

[01:20:32] you're running the risk that it's going to come out.

[01:20:35] And then you have to do damage control with people who,

[01:20:39] you know,

[01:20:40] want to work with you.

[01:20:41] And as far as they're concerned,

[01:20:43] you are part of their trio.

[01:20:45] So,

[01:20:46] yeah,

[01:20:47] it's always so questionable.

[01:20:48] I love how there's always a natural inclination for,

[01:20:53] for ladies on Survivor to create a women's alliance and how it like,

[01:21:01] most of the time never works.

[01:21:03] This comes from the person who the first time they played,

[01:21:06] went in saying,

[01:21:07] I want to work with women only.

[01:21:09] And then you get there and you're like,

[01:21:11] I don't want to work with the women who are here.

[01:21:14] Not these women.

[01:21:17] Not these women.

[01:21:19] Women,

[01:21:19] women in general.

[01:21:22] Yeah.

[01:21:24] So,

[01:21:24] but,

[01:21:25] but,

[01:21:25] but that's the thing for me,

[01:21:26] it's happened to me twice.

[01:21:28] So,

[01:21:28] and then you realize that it's,

[01:21:30] it's actually,

[01:21:31] it's not as simple as you think it is when you get there and,

[01:21:36] and the dynamics that,

[01:21:39] that come into play.

[01:21:40] So it's,

[01:21:41] it's,

[01:21:42] I always think it's,

[01:21:43] it's always a red flag when someone does suggest something.

[01:21:45] Like that,

[01:21:46] because inevitably you'll always have someone in that group.

[01:21:51] Who's second guessing whether or not that is the,

[01:21:56] the group that they want to,

[01:21:58] to,

[01:21:58] to work with.

[01:21:59] Cause it's so arbitrary as well.

[01:22:00] That's the other thing about it.

[01:22:02] So I,

[01:22:03] yeah,

[01:22:04] I just,

[01:22:05] I just,

[01:22:05] I don't think it was wise.

[01:22:07] Well,

[01:22:08] this story.

[01:22:08] I do get the sense that it was more a case of it.

[01:22:13] It slipped out.

[01:22:14] Yeah.

[01:22:15] This is intentionally wanting to tell him.

[01:22:18] Yeah.

[01:22:19] That was definitely,

[01:22:20] there's something so ironic about that way.

[01:22:22] She's calling Andy sloppy.

[01:22:23] And then this was really sloppy.

[01:22:25] Like this was a disaster for me.

[01:22:27] Like,

[01:22:27] I mean,

[01:22:27] I do think that like,

[01:22:29] this is an arbitrary for the women coming together.

[01:22:30] Like they get along,

[01:22:31] you know,

[01:22:32] it's not,

[01:22:33] it's not just gender based.

[01:22:34] Like they've had over a week to hang out.

[01:22:36] They like each other the best.

[01:22:37] We see Andy's got his own stuff.

[01:22:39] Sam has been clashing with them.

[01:22:41] This is the natural trio.

[01:22:43] The three of them.

[01:22:44] And I don't know how intentional it was for Monica,

[01:22:46] but she did some good stuff in kind of putting the threat onto the Ken and Barbie thing.

[01:22:50] And saying how people are talking about it that kind of pushed Sierra more towards them.

[01:22:53] And I think that again,

[01:22:54] not sure of the intentionality,

[01:22:56] but that was good.

[01:22:57] But for Sierra here,

[01:22:58] I think this was like,

[01:22:59] this was horrendous to give for no reason.

[01:23:03] And I get,

[01:23:03] again,

[01:23:03] like complete sloppiness.

[01:23:04] Like she,

[01:23:04] she has all the leverage with Andy.

[01:23:06] She's not trying to get anything from him.

[01:23:08] And he's trying to get it from her.

[01:23:09] She just,

[01:23:09] again,

[01:23:10] flip the leverage.

[01:23:11] It's almost like the theme of the episode where now Andy,

[01:23:15] I think was right to go to Sam.

[01:23:16] Andy is showing Sam.

[01:23:18] You are,

[01:23:18] you can not lose me.

[01:23:19] You are so clearly forth,

[01:23:20] which is then what Sam will say to Sierra.

[01:23:22] So he's really given Sam massive incentive,

[01:23:25] giving him that trust,

[01:23:26] that information and that showing that you need me so badly.

[01:23:29] So I think that was really good from Andy.

[01:23:31] And I also think for Sierra,

[01:23:32] this was looks so shady to her allies,

[01:23:35] the breadwinner Alliance,

[01:23:36] that if it's ever looking really dicey for Andy and Sam,

[01:23:40] they could go to the women and say,

[01:23:41] we know it's a breadwinner Alliance.

[01:23:42] They could throw Sierra under the bus.

[01:23:43] And she could almost be the next boot on this tribe.

[01:23:46] This was,

[01:23:47] I think a disaster,

[01:23:48] absolute disaster from Sierra.

[01:23:49] I think it was good from Andy.

[01:23:51] I think Andy's done a lot of good stuff.

[01:23:53] I liked Andy on the journey.

[01:23:55] I liked the questions he was asking of Sierra to even get that information.

[01:23:59] I like going to Sam and proving that trust.

[01:24:02] I don't disagree really with anything Andy's done since the premiere.

[01:24:05] I think that this has been good.

[01:24:08] You don't disagree with anything he's done since the premiere.

[01:24:11] The premiere was really bad,

[01:24:13] but from episodes two to four,

[01:24:15] I don't like,

[01:24:16] yeah,

[01:24:16] from the premiere,

[01:24:17] from episode two,

[01:24:19] I think he's,

[01:24:20] I think he's been really strong.

[01:24:21] I think he's built back.

[01:24:23] I think he's created something with Sam.

[01:24:26] Other than like,

[01:24:27] you know,

[01:24:28] leaving his bag a bit too open and falling off boats.

[01:24:30] It's,

[01:24:31] I don't see,

[01:24:33] I think that he's built back in small ways.

[01:24:37] He could still have been the next boot,

[01:24:38] you know,

[01:24:39] they haven't gone back to a tribal council.

[01:24:40] So that makes it a bit difficult to kind of judge,

[01:24:42] but I like the little things he's doing.

[01:24:46] From the bad starting point.

[01:24:47] What about it striking back with Sam confronting Sierra about it?

[01:24:54] Yeah.

[01:24:54] Yeah.

[01:24:54] I think that was really not good.

[01:24:56] I think that Sam kind of needed to get the information,

[01:24:59] but I think he could have been softer.

[01:25:01] I think he could have.

[01:25:02] I also thought that he could have been softer with it because she went,

[01:25:06] the last thing you want is,

[01:25:08] is,

[01:25:09] you know,

[01:25:09] your,

[01:25:10] your number one feeling like,

[01:25:12] okay,

[01:25:12] I've just been scolded like a naughty little girl.

[01:25:18] Okay.

[01:25:18] What does that mean in terms of the dynamic that we have?

[01:25:21] Cause that's,

[01:25:22] that's the sense that I got.

[01:25:24] Yes.

[01:25:25] Well,

[01:25:25] there's an also you're trying to convince her to work with Andy.

[01:25:29] And now you've put her off Andy.

[01:25:31] So I would have been like,

[01:25:33] you know,

[01:25:33] I would have done the same thing Andy did.

[01:25:35] How close are you guys?

[01:25:36] And she,

[01:25:36] and considering she gave up that information,

[01:25:38] it probably wouldn't have been that hard for Sam to do it as well.

[01:25:41] So I think confronting her and throwing Andy on the bus was wrong.

[01:25:44] I do think their alliance is trouble in the Barbie dream house because their interests are incredibly misaligned.

[01:25:51] Like for Sam,

[01:25:52] you can a hundred percent see how he does not want to be the fourth to the women.

[01:25:55] He would go home at that point.

[01:25:56] I mean,

[01:25:56] he has the idol.

[01:25:57] So like,

[01:25:58] yes,

[01:25:58] at that point,

[01:25:59] you know,

[01:26:00] maybe it's like,

[01:26:00] okay,

[01:26:00] they'll all vote from,

[01:26:01] he'll play the idol.

[01:26:02] Who wants to be in that position?

[01:26:03] She says,

[01:26:04] you won't go home because of me.

[01:26:05] Like,

[01:26:06] that's not a good position for Sam to be in either fourth or at best a two,

[01:26:10] two.

[01:26:10] Yes.

[01:26:10] With the idol.

[01:26:11] But like,

[01:26:12] again,

[01:26:13] that's not the way I'd want to start my game.

[01:26:14] I'd rather build something,

[01:26:15] build numbers with Andy.

[01:26:16] He's super,

[01:26:17] super loyal to him.

[01:26:18] So for Sam,

[01:26:19] I get it for Sierra.

[01:26:20] I definitely get wanting to be with the women with Sam.

[01:26:23] You're unlikely to go to two more tribal councils.

[01:26:26] If you do,

[01:26:27] you lose Sam,

[01:26:28] which is really unfortunate,

[01:26:29] but it's not going to be you.

[01:26:30] The woman's relationship is really,

[01:26:32] really great.

[01:26:33] And you probably do get to have your cake and eat it too.

[01:26:35] Like have Sam as the fourth,

[01:26:36] making it through to merge with all four.

[01:26:38] So I get it from her perspective.

[01:26:40] And as much as Andy's going to give her,

[01:26:42] she has great relationships across the board elsewhere.

[01:26:44] I just think they have very misaligned interests at this point.

[01:26:46] And I don't really know how that's like,

[01:26:49] that's solvable for the two of them.

[01:26:52] No,

[01:26:52] it's not.

[01:26:54] Yeah.

[01:26:54] Where do you think like they should,

[01:26:56] is there any way that the two of them could work that out?

[01:26:58] Or is it just that diverged?

[01:27:02] I do think that they will end up voting together.

[01:27:06] If they were to go to another tribal,

[01:27:08] it's highly unlikely that they will not.

[01:27:11] Because they'll be a swap.

[01:27:12] There was something going on.

[01:27:14] Yeah.

[01:27:14] It looked like there was like two challenges.

[01:27:16] So I think that despite that,

[01:27:21] they can still chat and find each other.

[01:27:24] You still get the sense that out of the people there,

[01:27:29] they are still more likely to come up to something together.

[01:27:34] Yeah.

[01:27:36] But like you say,

[01:27:38] it's so tricky because they're so misaligned.

[01:27:40] And they have different views and you can see two very strong personalities as well.

[01:27:46] Yeah.

[01:27:47] I could almost see,

[01:27:48] I could almost flash forward to a Genevieve soul dynamic with Sam coming to Sierra.

[01:27:52] Like you can't vote for Andy because I'm playing the idol on him.

[01:27:56] So,

[01:27:56] I mean,

[01:27:56] it's a one tribal idol,

[01:27:57] right?

[01:27:58] So yeah,

[01:27:59] go with me or don't,

[01:28:01] but you know,

[01:28:01] but like,

[01:28:02] but also go with me,

[01:28:03] but also you have to go with me.

[01:28:04] The threat ultimatum of it all.

[01:28:06] I could see that.

[01:28:07] But Sam has a one tribal idol.

[01:28:09] So that dynamic,

[01:28:10] he would,

[01:28:10] he would rule that dynamic.

[01:28:11] So yeah.

[01:28:12] And you know,

[01:28:12] Sierra as well.

[01:28:14] She's like,

[01:28:14] I didn't come up with the name.

[01:28:15] It's like,

[01:28:15] Sierra,

[01:28:15] that is not the issue.

[01:28:16] The first issue was that they're that close that they have a name,

[01:28:19] which sucks for Sam.

[01:28:20] The second issue was that you didn't tell him.

[01:28:22] It's not about who came up with the name.

[01:28:24] If anything,

[01:28:24] take the creative,

[01:28:25] like,

[01:28:26] you know,

[01:28:26] like that was,

[01:28:27] that's a good thing.

[01:28:27] Like it was,

[01:28:28] it's a good Alliance name.

[01:28:29] No,

[01:28:29] the issue was that you didn't tell your ally for days.

[01:28:33] Anyway.

[01:28:34] And also that you told Andy instead of Sam,

[01:28:36] like that's very concerning.

[01:28:40] Yeah.

[01:28:40] Yeah.

[01:28:41] Oops.

[01:28:41] Not great.

[01:28:42] Really bad.

[01:28:43] I do appreciate that.

[01:28:44] She's trying to save the chickens though.

[01:28:46] So.

[01:28:47] No.

[01:28:48] Yeah.

[01:28:49] You know.

[01:28:50] I hate when they do the chickens.

[01:28:52] I hate when they do the chickens.

[01:28:53] It's like,

[01:28:55] I actually think they do this for television.

[01:28:58] It's like,

[01:28:59] the most frustrating thing to watch.

[01:29:01] First of all,

[01:29:03] like,

[01:29:05] my view on this.

[01:29:07] Is that whenever you get the chickens,

[01:29:09] they must die immediately.

[01:29:11] There must be room for discussion around it.

[01:29:13] Look on your face.

[01:29:15] And you just eat them all in one go.

[01:29:18] Because.

[01:29:18] No.

[01:29:21] If it's not the,

[01:29:22] if it's not the issues that the vegans that don't want,

[01:29:25] or the.

[01:29:25] That's me.

[01:29:27] The vegans have fed.

[01:29:29] It's.

[01:29:30] It's like.

[01:29:32] Is it.

[01:29:33] To me.

[01:29:34] Yeah.

[01:29:35] Now my child is crashing the podcast.

[01:29:36] We both got.

[01:29:38] Right.

[01:29:39] When she's like,

[01:29:39] what are we talking about with animals?

[01:29:41] My cat is.

[01:29:41] Yeah.

[01:29:42] Well,

[01:29:42] we don't eat cats.

[01:29:44] We're good.

[01:29:45] I don't eat chicken.

[01:29:46] I don't like when they do the chicken stuff.

[01:29:49] But it's,

[01:29:50] it's like one of those where it's like such a cursed reward.

[01:29:53] I think if I were to ever be like doing a challenge and that was the reward,

[01:29:59] I would,

[01:29:59] I would actually think that it's one of those that's just not worth it.

[01:30:03] To be honest.

[01:30:04] Because the,

[01:30:05] the issues are so much around it that it's,

[01:30:09] it's not worth it.

[01:30:10] Unfortunately,

[01:30:11] in this case,

[01:30:12] it was paired with an immunity.

[01:30:13] So you have to try and win it because it's,

[01:30:16] it's just not worth the trouble.

[01:30:18] They're noisy.

[01:30:19] They're messy.

[01:30:20] The likelihood that you're going to get enough eggs to be feeding five

[01:30:25] people.

[01:30:25] Like for me,

[01:30:26] the practicality of it is just because chickens are a curse.

[01:30:32] Yeah.

[01:30:32] Well,

[01:30:32] it's a curse for me to watch it and then feel sad that they're going to

[01:30:35] kill.

[01:30:35] I can't even,

[01:30:36] I hate it,

[01:30:36] but,

[01:30:36] but I did look up,

[01:30:38] you know,

[01:30:38] they canceled the Sierra award on May 25th of this year.

[01:30:43] And yet this chicken discussion that Sierra was trying,

[01:30:45] which usually would win some Sierra money was happening on day eight,

[01:30:48] which was May 20th,

[01:30:49] five days later.

[01:30:50] They're like,

[01:30:50] sorry,

[01:30:51] Sierra,

[01:30:51] you're not getting any money.

[01:30:52] So I do really appreciate that.

[01:30:55] She tried to,

[01:30:57] you know,

[01:30:57] um,

[01:30:58] my cat is crashing the podcast.

[01:31:01] Um,

[01:31:01] I do appreciate that she tried to save chickens,

[01:31:04] but yeah,

[01:31:04] I mean,

[01:31:05] maybe they could have just hung out for like 20 minutes with the last

[01:31:07] puzzle piece.

[01:31:08] Be like,

[01:31:08] yeah,

[01:31:08] we'll just take the six eggs,

[01:31:10] let them,

[01:31:10] let them win.

[01:31:11] And we'll,

[01:31:12] um,

[01:31:12] put in the puzzle piece second.

[01:31:15] I don't know.

[01:31:16] That's,

[01:31:16] that's how I feel about it.

[01:31:18] At least you can,

[01:31:19] you can frame it.

[01:31:20] There isn't an emotional attachment to it as well.

[01:31:24] I mean,

[01:31:25] goodness,

[01:31:26] the size of the chickens once you've done all the work anyway,

[01:31:29] and this is where I keep coming back to you.

[01:31:32] That's why I think you must just do it in one go.

[01:31:36] All of them minimize the discussion,

[01:31:38] minimize the,

[01:31:39] I can't co-sign this Teresa.

[01:31:42] So I can't,

[01:31:44] I can't for the chicken massacre.

[01:31:48] I can't.

[01:31:50] I can't.

[01:31:50] It's a source of protein,

[01:31:52] Shannon.

[01:31:53] Or,

[01:31:54] or just place yourself in a position where you just don't get it at all.

[01:31:58] Um,

[01:31:58] then,

[01:32:00] then there's peace and harmony in the tribe.

[01:32:03] Like I thought to my core when Sam was like,

[01:32:07] Oh no,

[01:32:08] I was like,

[01:32:09] I,

[01:32:09] I can just totally imagine that being me in that situation and having one or two

[01:32:17] people think that they should be saved.

[01:32:19] And you're like,

[01:32:20] this is so dumb.

[01:32:22] But okay.

[01:32:23] I don't say anything because gambling.

[01:32:28] Yeah.

[01:32:29] And also ethics.

[01:32:32] No,

[01:32:32] it's,

[01:32:32] I mean,

[01:32:32] everyone,

[01:32:33] they're all meat eaters.

[01:32:34] If you eat meat,

[01:32:36] you can't make the ethical argument.

[01:32:38] Yeah.

[01:32:39] Well,

[01:32:40] I don't enjoy it.

[01:32:42] Speaking of massacres,

[01:32:44] this is a segue.

[01:32:45] Let's talk about Tukku with the paint,

[01:32:48] the Lady Macbeth style.

[01:32:50] Outdown.

[01:32:55] Um,

[01:32:57] it's,

[01:32:57] this was so,

[01:32:58] this was so funny.

[01:32:59] What did you think about the,

[01:33:00] yeah,

[01:33:01] the,

[01:33:01] because they did it before in 42 Drea like put her hand in paint,

[01:33:04] but this was like,

[01:33:05] I thought hilarious in that it just crashed everywhere.

[01:33:09] There was so,

[01:33:09] it was like the whole scene starting from Kyle saying like,

[01:33:13] if the good Lord wills it,

[01:33:14] you'll have a lot of time,

[01:33:15] but like she's lying about the time.

[01:33:17] So that's not actually maybe even as true.

[01:33:19] That's the first part.

[01:33:20] The second part,

[01:33:20] then she was just like covered in pain in a way that's,

[01:33:22] just hysterical.

[01:33:23] And then ending with her being like,

[01:33:25] yeah,

[01:33:25] I bit my tongue.

[01:33:26] If you would have bite your tongue for that amount of paint that was even on

[01:33:29] her,

[01:33:29] you would have bitten your tongue off.

[01:33:31] So all of that,

[01:33:32] I thought I was like in hysterics.

[01:33:34] I thought it was very funny.

[01:33:35] I loved it.

[01:33:37] So,

[01:33:39] so much.

[01:33:40] Like the goofiness of the run up.

[01:33:43] And actually,

[01:33:44] honestly,

[01:33:44] I think also how it was.

[01:33:47] She was like,

[01:33:48] she was like in such a,

[01:33:48] a dark place at the beginning of it.

[01:33:51] Cause you know,

[01:33:53] the game can be so hard and it's tough and it's emotional.

[01:33:56] And then she just gets a little,

[01:33:58] you know,

[01:33:59] glimmer of hope.

[01:34:00] And I thought it was a lovely little story.

[01:34:04] Very funny.

[01:34:05] Like you say,

[01:34:05] with paint everywhere.

[01:34:07] I was like,

[01:34:07] Oh no,

[01:34:08] she's going to get caught.

[01:34:09] She's going to get caught.

[01:34:11] And she did get caught,

[01:34:13] but she didn't,

[01:34:14] which was.

[01:34:15] Well,

[01:34:16] she did.

[01:34:17] What?

[01:34:18] She got,

[01:34:18] she got caught.

[01:34:20] They thought it was blood.

[01:34:21] How can you though?

[01:34:25] Well,

[01:34:25] what would you think?

[01:34:30] No,

[01:34:31] I think that'd be too suspicious.

[01:34:33] I guess maybe because they would have watched in 42.

[01:34:39] Drea did put her hand in paint.

[01:34:41] So you would think,

[01:34:43] and I think Tiana does think,

[01:34:44] I don't think Tiana thinks she bit her tongue.

[01:34:48] Oh,

[01:34:48] she just looked like a cat on her chin.

[01:34:52] That legitimately looked like blood from who we're standing.

[01:34:56] But that was so funny though.

[01:34:59] The issue is you want to say you're bleeding,

[01:35:02] but you don't have a source of a wound for them to look at.

[01:35:05] So that's why she said her tongue.

[01:35:06] I do think that is difficult.

[01:35:08] I don't think tongue was where I would have gone.

[01:35:10] I think that like,

[01:35:11] it's fine if she goes and immediately tells her allies.

[01:35:14] I anyway think people should be using idols to bond with their majority,

[01:35:18] create them,

[01:35:19] you know,

[01:35:19] solidify with Gabe and with Caroline.

[01:35:21] But now,

[01:35:22] especially because she was caught,

[01:35:23] as long as you just tell your majority,

[01:35:25] then there's no way that they'll be mad.

[01:35:28] And hopefully Caroline thinks that she would have done that anyway.

[01:35:30] And it wasn't just because she was caught,

[01:35:32] but I actually felt like this was not a good episode for Sue.

[01:35:36] No,

[01:35:37] no,

[01:35:37] no,

[01:35:38] no.

[01:35:38] Did you think it was,

[01:35:39] I mean,

[01:35:39] she found an idol.

[01:35:41] She did find an idol,

[01:35:43] but also just lying about her age.

[01:35:44] Was that next to you?

[01:35:46] It was that.

[01:35:49] And like,

[01:35:50] it's,

[01:35:51] it's one of those,

[01:35:52] that's rich coming from me as well.

[01:35:54] It's like,

[01:35:55] do you really need to lie about that?

[01:35:58] Yeah.

[01:35:59] Well,

[01:36:00] that's what I mean.

[01:36:01] Yeah.

[01:36:02] I mean,

[01:36:02] to say that you're,

[01:36:03] well,

[01:36:04] well,

[01:36:04] firstly,

[01:36:05] they said she,

[01:36:05] this was kind of a Franken bite.

[01:36:06] And I feel that Sue has a lot of Franken bites,

[01:36:08] but they made it seem like she's lying about her age and her job.

[01:36:11] So like,

[01:36:11] how is anyone connecting to you on anything from a job perspective?

[01:36:15] How is being a pilot threatening?

[01:36:18] And we know that Tiana is a flight attendant who wants to be a pilot.

[01:36:22] So are they not connecting on that?

[01:36:23] Cause you're lying about your job.

[01:36:24] Why?

[01:36:25] They're not age.

[01:36:26] Like I was,

[01:36:27] you know,

[01:36:27] talking about this with,

[01:36:28] you know,

[01:36:29] a friend who watches as well.

[01:36:30] And she was saying,

[01:36:32] and I agree with Sarah Carradine.

[01:36:33] And she was saying how,

[01:36:34] if you're like kind of 45 or 58 to the 20 somethings,

[01:36:38] it's kind of similar.

[01:36:40] Like you're still in that maternal role.

[01:36:42] Like Julie was,

[01:36:42] I think had just turned 49 kind of all the same.

[01:36:45] If anything kind of lean into the maternal role.

[01:36:47] Secondly,

[01:36:48] if you're like for the 30 somethings,

[01:36:51] I feel like now that's kind of unbelievable.

[01:36:53] So it's like the risk of that.

[01:36:55] Yeah.

[01:36:56] So like,

[01:36:56] what are you gaining?

[01:36:58] And also I feel like it makes it so different.

[01:36:59] Like,

[01:37:00] like her whole life.

[01:37:01] She has a child.

[01:37:01] She has a grandchild.

[01:37:02] All the ages around 13 years of her life have been erratic.

[01:37:05] That is a long time.

[01:37:07] You have to think about your story of life.

[01:37:08] How old were you when you had your kid?

[01:37:10] Like how,

[01:37:11] like all of that is so different.

[01:37:12] Why even do it to yourself?

[01:37:14] Like what,

[01:37:14] like,

[01:37:14] what are you gaining based on what you're losing for the difficulties of that?

[01:37:19] Yeah.

[01:37:19] It's,

[01:37:20] it's,

[01:37:20] it's so,

[01:37:21] yeah.

[01:37:22] I just question that.

[01:37:24] Why,

[01:37:24] why lie about it?

[01:37:26] Yeah.

[01:37:27] Yeah.

[01:37:27] And I don't,

[01:37:27] I don't,

[01:37:28] I don't think it,

[01:37:29] I don't think you gain anything.

[01:37:31] But I didn't think that was good.

[01:37:32] Especially because you already got a sense that she,

[01:37:35] she is someone that is quite likable.

[01:37:37] Yes,

[01:37:38] she,

[01:37:38] she didn't get a vote,

[01:37:39] but you get the sense that there are enough people in the tribe who want to work with her,

[01:37:45] want to see her on.

[01:37:46] I mean,

[01:37:47] Gabe reinforces her.

[01:37:48] So she's,

[01:37:49] she's actually not in a position where she wants to play that off.

[01:37:54] She can be her authentic self in,

[01:37:57] in that regard.

[01:37:58] And it's,

[01:37:59] and it's all right.

[01:38:00] Yeah.

[01:38:01] No,

[01:38:01] if anything,

[01:38:01] it's actually much more impressive that she's done so well socially,

[01:38:05] considering that she is a stranger to these people.

[01:38:06] They know nothing about her.

[01:38:08] So,

[01:38:10] yeah,

[01:38:10] if anything,

[01:38:10] that's more impressive because there's like that barrier there,

[01:38:13] but I don't think she should be lying about this stuff.

[01:38:14] I did think,

[01:38:15] obviously,

[01:38:16] you know,

[01:38:16] I thought it made sense to risk her vote.

[01:38:18] Kyle doesn't have a vote.

[01:38:19] She has like the space to do that.

[01:38:20] And then what did you think about the fact that she gets an idol?

[01:38:23] She gets like a full final five idol,

[01:38:26] not just a couple of episodes ago,

[01:38:27] everyone was going through what felt like hours of treks,

[01:38:31] boxes for,

[01:38:32] yeah,

[01:38:38] on something that was difficult and very public with the paint,

[01:38:42] but like,

[01:38:42] I don't think it was more difficult than,

[01:38:44] you know,

[01:38:44] the treks that ever,

[01:38:45] so,

[01:38:45] and now it's just idols.

[01:38:46] Like,

[01:38:46] how did,

[01:38:47] what do you feel about that from a production perspective?

[01:38:49] No,

[01:38:49] I felt Sam's one was,

[01:38:50] it was a lot of work.

[01:38:53] All of them.

[01:38:55] Gabe was working.

[01:38:56] They were working.

[01:38:57] And the climbing up.

[01:38:59] Yeah.

[01:38:59] Yeah.

[01:39:01] I'm not sure what the thinking was around,

[01:39:03] around that.

[01:39:04] Maybe,

[01:39:05] you know,

[01:39:05] they just draw out of heads,

[01:39:06] which one will be a complete idol,

[01:39:08] which one will be.

[01:39:08] I don't like that.

[01:39:10] Yeah.

[01:39:11] I think they're just kind of like,

[01:39:12] we're done now.

[01:39:13] That was a gimmick.

[01:39:14] And that's finished.

[01:39:15] I think it is a bit thoughtless.

[01:39:17] And I don't,

[01:39:18] I think if you were to ask production,

[01:39:20] they wouldn't have a good answer.

[01:39:21] That's me surmising.

[01:39:22] And I,

[01:39:22] I don't like that.

[01:39:23] Like in 42,

[01:39:24] they were all beware advantages.

[01:39:26] Every single,

[01:39:27] you know,

[01:39:27] advantage of beware advantage.

[01:39:28] And then like one time,

[01:39:29] like Marianne,

[01:39:30] which I love,

[01:39:30] but like she found just like an idol.

[01:39:32] And it was an idol not beware.

[01:39:34] It was like,

[01:39:34] well,

[01:39:34] where's the consistency on that?

[01:39:35] Who decides that?

[01:39:36] Is there a reason that it's inconsistent?

[01:39:37] Or is it just like,

[01:39:39] put in an idol now,

[01:39:40] you know?

[01:39:42] I think it could also speak to the fact that there's going to be a swap.

[01:39:47] Maybe.

[01:39:50] So they just want her to get it.

[01:39:52] To get it.

[01:39:53] And that there isn't as much time as the others have had.

[01:39:55] Well,

[01:39:55] they have done that before though.

[01:39:57] Like Hunter last season,

[01:39:58] he got it right before.

[01:40:00] Oh yeah.

[01:40:01] Well,

[01:40:01] I mean,

[01:40:01] yeah,

[01:40:01] I mean,

[01:40:02] she got it and she would have to,

[01:40:03] but that's on her though.

[01:40:04] If she,

[01:40:05] if she's taking beware later on,

[01:40:07] she knows she's knowingly making the decision where,

[01:40:10] and then maybe she makes a choice not to keep looking for it because she has.

[01:40:14] I was about to say,

[01:40:16] then there's less likelihood of actually taking it.

[01:40:18] If it's right before there is a swap or whatever else.

[01:40:23] Yeah.

[01:40:24] Yeah.

[01:40:25] I'm just trying to put my head in production's heads on that one.

[01:40:29] I guess.

[01:40:29] Yeah.

[01:40:30] Like even with like the beware of my age from Marianne,

[01:40:31] like maybe it was just like kind of more of like a post merge game thing.

[01:40:34] This is all pre merge.

[01:40:36] It's all so close together.

[01:40:38] I just think it's like that gimmick is done,

[01:40:40] but I think it is a bit thoughtless.

[01:40:42] From a TV perspective,

[01:40:43] I felt like,

[01:40:45] you know,

[01:40:46] I'm in two minds.

[01:40:46] Cause I think this was a good.

[01:40:48] Idle finding segment.

[01:40:50] It was really funny.

[01:40:50] I think that was all great.

[01:40:52] Like the endless kind of trekking.

[01:40:54] I don't love,

[01:40:56] but then limiting the idols power and having the agency of decision-making.

[01:40:59] I do find interesting.

[01:41:01] So I'm in two minds of that.

[01:41:02] I don't like the consistency,

[01:41:04] but I do think what it's incentivizing is if you in a future season,

[01:41:08] get it,

[01:41:09] you know,

[01:41:09] early on,

[01:41:10] find something that says one tribal or you can extend it.

[01:41:14] You have to go for the full idol because I'd be thinking,

[01:41:17] Oh,

[01:41:17] if I don't go for the full idol and it expires or I have to play it,

[01:41:20] then someone else who's not me,

[01:41:22] who has this in my hands.

[01:41:23] Now I've opened it up to whoever finds the next thing seemingly is just

[01:41:26] going to get a full idol for maybe even less work than I'm putting in for

[01:41:29] this one tribal idol.

[01:41:30] So I think it incentivizes going the full way to getting the full idol.

[01:41:35] Less.

[01:41:35] Someone else is going to do less work for a more powerful idol in like two

[01:41:38] days from now.

[01:41:39] Yeah.

[01:41:40] Yeah.

[01:41:41] And maybe,

[01:41:41] I don't know if that's what they want.

[01:41:42] Again,

[01:41:42] I don't think they're thinking through that,

[01:41:44] but the inconsistency I think is,

[01:41:45] is interesting.

[01:41:49] Anything else from this tribe?

[01:41:50] Does anyone else stand out to you from these kind of two other tribes that

[01:41:53] we haven't spoken about as much?

[01:41:56] I'm just having a look here.

[01:42:02] Gabe,

[01:42:05] Kyle,

[01:42:05] Tiana,

[01:42:07] Rachel and Anika,

[01:42:08] we haven't spoken about as much.

[01:42:09] Yeah.

[01:42:10] Who do you like?

[01:42:12] There's a good energy to him.

[01:42:19] No one else?

[01:42:23] Who's your favorite?

[01:42:24] Who's your winner pick?

[01:42:25] Who do you think will win?

[01:42:27] Should we ask your son again?

[01:42:29] Huh?

[01:42:30] Your son said Jesse two years ago,

[01:42:33] which was not bad.

[01:42:34] He is one fire away from that.

[01:42:36] It was a solid pitch,

[01:42:36] huh?

[01:42:37] Yeah.

[01:42:38] It was a solid pitch.

[01:42:41] If I were to go now,

[01:42:43] can I pick one for each tribe?

[01:42:45] No,

[01:42:46] you shouldn't even get one now.

[01:42:47] It is episode four.

[01:42:49] One pick.

[01:42:50] I've lost two draft picks already.

[01:42:52] Okay.

[01:42:53] So...

[01:42:53] Are you for real?

[01:42:55] Yeah.

[01:42:57] I'm going to go...

[01:42:57] Give one from each tribe,

[01:42:59] but then choose one actual person.

[01:43:02] Okay.

[01:43:03] I'm going to go...

[01:43:03] I'm going to go with Kinney.

[01:43:05] Okay.

[01:43:07] That's probably more of a hard pick than a hit pick.

[01:43:13] I'm going to go with Sam.

[01:43:16] Yeah,

[01:43:16] that's fair.

[01:43:17] And Gabe.

[01:43:19] All right.

[01:43:19] I think those are good picks.

[01:43:20] I mean,

[01:43:21] look,

[01:43:21] it's not...

[01:43:21] It's probably not Genevieve,

[01:43:23] right?

[01:43:23] Which is so upsetting,

[01:43:24] considering...

[01:43:25] Yes.

[01:43:25] Yeah.

[01:43:26] Like,

[01:43:26] she's been so good,

[01:43:28] but like...

[01:43:29] I mean,

[01:43:29] editing...

[01:43:31] It's almost...

[01:43:31] It's almost like with Kishan,

[01:43:33] I think.

[01:43:34] And this is the tension that you have

[01:43:37] very early on in the game.

[01:43:39] And I think it's the same sort of thing

[01:43:41] that happened to a Tevin in my season.

[01:43:45] Is that you come up guns blazing

[01:43:47] and you're really playing a very good game.

[01:43:51] And what happens is it becomes so visible

[01:43:54] to everyone else playing with you

[01:43:56] that there's almost like a timestamp

[01:44:00] to,

[01:44:01] okay,

[01:44:02] I see you,

[01:44:04] your time.

[01:44:05] The minute we can take a shot at you,

[01:44:07] we're going to do that.

[01:44:09] And I feel that

[01:44:13] as good as Genevieve's move was now,

[01:44:17] what happens as a result of that

[01:44:19] is that everyone around her

[01:44:20] is going to be more aware

[01:44:22] of the kind of game

[01:44:23] that she's capable of playing.

[01:44:26] And generally,

[01:44:28] people like that,

[01:44:29] they don't end up

[01:44:32] as a sole survivor.

[01:44:34] Yeah,

[01:44:35] I do think that that

[01:44:37] is a criticism possibly

[01:44:38] of the move.

[01:44:39] To have a coming out party this early

[01:44:41] and for what?

[01:44:42] You know,

[01:44:42] I mean,

[01:44:43] and she does gain,

[01:44:44] as we've said,

[01:44:45] but if it's quite marginal

[01:44:47] and both decisions have merit,

[01:44:49] is it worth it?

[01:44:50] I think

[01:44:51] still,

[01:44:51] I lean towards doing it

[01:44:53] even with the possible threat level

[01:44:54] being raised

[01:45:03] this tribe

[01:45:03] and there might be bigger fish.

[01:45:06] Like,

[01:45:06] the dynamics are going to fully shift

[01:45:07] and that won't necessarily

[01:45:08] come back on her.

[01:45:10] She'll have the skills

[01:45:11] and people might not

[01:45:12] even be as aware,

[01:45:13] even if they hear about it,

[01:45:14] kind of how obvious

[01:45:16] and how good those skills are.

[01:45:17] I just think that she's not winning

[01:45:19] because editing her like this

[01:45:21] was already so egregious.

[01:45:22] If she's the winner

[01:45:23] and they edited their winner

[01:45:24] like this

[01:45:25] to not show

[01:45:26] how impressive

[01:45:27] those first couple of episodes were

[01:45:29] and how imperative she was

[01:45:30] to last week's vote

[01:45:31] and how incredible

[01:45:33] her social work was

[01:45:34] to this point,

[01:45:35] it's even more unforgivable.

[01:45:36] So from a,

[01:45:37] yeah,

[01:45:37] I wouldn't put my chips on her

[01:45:39] from an edit perspective

[01:45:40] and that's really upsetting

[01:45:41] to even have her kind of

[01:45:42] ruled out,

[01:45:43] let alone kind of,

[01:45:43] I feel like,

[01:45:44] what it took away

[01:45:44] from the narrative.

[01:45:45] So I think Teenie

[01:45:46] has definitely had

[01:45:47] the most narrative on that.

[01:45:48] I mean,

[01:45:48] you couldn't pick Rome

[01:45:49] and I wouldn't pick Soul

[01:45:50] from an edit perspective

[01:45:52] as well

[01:45:53] and then,

[01:45:53] yeah,

[01:45:54] on Goddard,

[01:45:55] Sam's definitely had the most.

[01:45:56] I feel like you've picked

[01:45:57] the person who has had

[01:45:58] the most from me.

[01:45:59] Rome's had a lot

[01:45:59] but like some clear picks.

[01:46:01] I mean,

[01:46:01] who of the three

[01:46:02] are you picking

[01:46:02] as your like winner pick?

[01:46:06] I'm going to go with Teenie.

[01:46:07] I really like her.

[01:46:09] There's so much,

[01:46:10] even after this episode

[01:46:12] that she's not necessarily

[01:46:13] the best of luck.

[01:46:15] Yes,

[01:46:15] I think,

[01:46:16] I think of all the people

[01:46:17] she has shown

[01:46:19] the social ability

[01:46:21] to probably bounce back

[01:46:23] from something.

[01:46:23] like this

[01:46:25] and really be

[01:46:27] insulated

[01:46:28] because then again,

[01:46:29] you know,

[01:46:30] even in a scenario

[01:46:32] where there is a pair,

[01:46:34] like was the case

[01:46:35] with her and Kashan,

[01:46:36] yes,

[01:46:36] it was driven

[01:46:36] by the fact that

[01:46:37] he had thrown

[01:46:39] Genevieve's name

[01:46:40] out there.

[01:46:41] You still get the sense

[01:46:42] that if they were

[01:46:43] targeting the pair,

[01:46:44] she's always going to be

[01:46:45] the person in the pair

[01:46:46] who people would rather

[01:46:48] stay with than not.

[01:46:50] Yeah.

[01:46:52] So there's,

[01:46:53] there's that dynamic

[01:46:54] and,

[01:46:54] and,

[01:46:55] and I,

[01:46:55] I value that,

[01:46:57] that sense that

[01:47:00] people playing with you

[01:47:01] would actually want

[01:47:02] you to be

[01:47:03] the winner

[01:47:04] if you're not,

[01:47:05] if it's not them.

[01:47:07] Yeah.

[01:47:08] Teenie has great

[01:47:10] soft skills for the game.

[01:47:11] Teenie and Keyshawn

[01:47:12] just got Genevieve'd.

[01:47:14] They underestimated

[01:47:15] Genevieve.

[01:47:16] And,

[01:47:16] um,

[01:47:17] Asia got Genevieve'd

[01:47:18] where we wanted,

[01:47:19] like,

[01:47:19] where had Asia gone wrong?

[01:47:20] Like,

[01:47:21] you know,

[01:47:21] the issue was obviously

[01:47:22] Teenie and Keyshawn

[01:47:24] choosing Genevieve

[01:47:25] on someone like Asia

[01:47:26] who was so likable

[01:47:28] being socially outplayed

[01:47:29] by Genevieve

[01:47:30] and underestimating

[01:47:31] how much they would

[01:47:31] want to keep Genevieve.

[01:47:32] They all put a lot of power

[01:47:33] into Genevieve

[01:47:34] and they got Genevieve'd

[01:47:34] and that's a verb now.

[01:47:36] Um,

[01:47:36] but,

[01:47:36] you know,

[01:47:37] I still think

[01:47:38] that Teenie has skills

[01:47:40] that can work back.

[01:47:41] This was,

[01:47:41] like,

[01:47:41] one pretty bad decision

[01:47:43] on trusting

[01:47:43] and putting it all

[01:47:45] into Genevieve

[01:47:45] and giving that trust

[01:47:46] and flipping the leverage,

[01:47:47] like,

[01:47:47] again,

[01:47:47] complete disagreement,

[01:47:49] but there are skills.

[01:47:50] And I think

[01:47:50] at the point where we see

[01:47:51] the first scene

[01:47:52] where Sol

[01:47:53] is comforting Teenie,

[01:47:55] that's the kind of

[01:47:56] skill and dynamic

[01:47:56] that hopefully will

[01:47:58] rally through

[01:48:00] beyond

[01:48:01] kind of the mistakes

[01:48:02] that have been made.

[01:48:02] But let's talk about

[01:48:03] some of these people,

[01:48:04] I think,

[01:48:05] in the Chizzy,

[01:48:06] Take It Away,

[01:48:07] Jacob Sago-Wine scene

[01:48:07] and MC Color.

[01:48:09] One,

[01:48:09] two,

[01:48:10] three.

[01:48:11] One,

[01:48:12] one,

[01:48:12] one,

[01:48:12] three,

[01:48:12] one,

[01:48:13] two,

[01:48:14] two,

[01:48:14] three.

[01:48:14] It's getting,

[01:48:15] it's getting,

[01:48:15] it's getting kind of chizzy.

[01:48:16] Three,

[01:48:17] two,

[01:48:17] one.

[01:48:19] Great.

[01:48:20] Oh,

[01:48:20] that's the best

[01:48:20] I've ever done it.

[01:48:21] And look what I've added.

[01:48:23] The Chizzy chart!

[01:48:24] These are Randy Newpool's

[01:48:25] excellent Chizzy charts

[01:48:26] that I put on Twitter

[01:48:27] every week

[01:48:27] and I put them in the video

[01:48:28] and I worked out how to do it.

[01:48:30] It was not hard,

[01:48:31] but it still took me time.

[01:48:33] So we've got the Chizzy charts

[01:48:34] up here.

[01:48:35] Do you want to give your points

[01:48:35] first or should I go first

[01:48:37] or what do you want to do?

[01:48:39] It's really your call.

[01:48:40] I think traditionally

[01:48:41] I've always gone first,

[01:48:43] Shannon.

[01:48:43] Go first.

[01:48:43] I want to hear it.

[01:48:45] You go.

[01:48:45] I want to hear your points.

[01:48:46] Interesting.

[01:48:46] You go first this time.

[01:48:49] I'm going to go

[01:48:49] three points for Genevieve,

[01:48:51] obviously.

[01:48:52] I'm going to go

[01:48:58] two

[01:48:59] for Rome

[01:49:00] and I'm going to go

[01:49:01] one for Saul

[01:49:03] and let's rock.

[01:49:03] Okay.

[01:49:04] That's very,

[01:49:05] that's interesting.

[01:49:06] That's real.

[01:49:06] So,

[01:49:07] okay.

[01:49:07] So here's where

[01:49:09] we are at.

[01:49:10] Okay.

[01:49:11] I'm going to give my points.

[01:49:11] I'm just calculating

[01:49:12] some stuff.

[01:49:14] We have a lot of people

[01:49:15] on the Chizzy chart.

[01:49:16] As you can see,

[01:49:16] coming into this week,

[01:49:17] nine people already,

[01:49:19] three weeks in,

[01:49:19] which I think is really interesting.

[01:49:20] Which is almost unheard of.

[01:49:22] Yeah.

[01:49:23] It's very kind of

[01:49:24] even spread around

[01:49:25] just like people

[01:49:26] getting points.

[01:49:27] But what am I?

[01:49:29] Oh,

[01:49:29] I'm actually doing this.

[01:49:30] I think I've added up wrong,

[01:49:31] but this is what it is.

[01:49:32] I'm giving three points

[01:49:33] to Genevieve.

[01:49:34] I think that speaks for itself.

[01:49:35] I thought for me

[01:49:36] it was pretty easy this week.

[01:49:37] I'm giving three points

[01:49:37] to Genevieve.

[01:49:38] I'm giving two points

[01:49:39] to Saul.

[01:49:40] I think mainly

[01:49:41] on creating that connection

[01:49:42] with Genevieve,

[01:49:43] which I think was important.

[01:49:43] As we said,

[01:49:45] the train had left the station

[01:49:46] before Saul

[01:49:47] had ever been spoken to.

[01:49:49] Genevieve was going to have

[01:49:50] to do it whether Saul

[01:49:51] liked it or not

[01:49:52] and we don't even know

[01:49:52] how on board he was.

[01:49:54] But

[01:49:56] she went out of her way

[01:49:58] to work with him.

[01:49:59] Credit to her.

[01:50:00] Credit to his connection

[01:50:01] with her.

[01:50:02] Hopefully he plays that well.

[01:50:05] Saul.

[01:50:05] And yeah,

[01:50:06] I think that mostly

[01:50:07] with Saul,

[01:50:07] it's the standing

[01:50:09] and I hope it's

[01:50:10] what he wanted

[01:50:10] because his standing

[01:50:11] greatly improved

[01:50:12] in that relationship

[01:50:13] with Genevieve

[01:50:13] I think was key.

[01:50:14] I'm giving a point

[01:50:15] to Andy.

[01:50:16] Again,

[01:50:16] building back,

[01:50:17] I really like the way

[01:50:18] that Andy

[01:50:20] went back to Sam,

[01:50:21] the information

[01:50:22] from Sierra.

[01:50:23] Yeah,

[01:50:23] like,

[01:50:23] you know,

[01:50:23] the way that he

[01:50:25] was on the journey,

[01:50:27] the information

[01:50:27] that he gave.

[01:50:28] I thought all of that

[01:50:30] was good.

[01:50:31] I'm not giving to Rome

[01:50:32] and I feel like

[01:50:33] last week I gave Rome

[01:50:35] three points

[01:50:35] when actually

[01:50:36] had we known

[01:50:36] the information

[01:50:37] it feels like

[01:50:37] I could have swapped

[01:50:38] and given three

[01:50:39] to Genevieve

[01:50:40] and two to Rome

[01:50:41] because last week

[01:50:42] I gave two to Genevieve

[01:50:43] out of just the possibility

[01:50:45] and was like

[01:50:46] out of any information

[01:50:46] in the hope

[01:50:47] that it was Genevieve

[01:50:47] and it was even more

[01:50:48] than I could.

[01:50:49] She deserved 10 points,

[01:50:50] you know,

[01:50:50] so I feel like Rome

[01:50:51] got three last week

[01:50:52] and I feel like

[01:50:53] those three kind of credit

[01:50:54] the pros and the cons

[01:50:55] through the week.

[01:50:56] There were cons

[01:50:57] last week as well.

[01:50:57] This week he was

[01:50:59] the target

[01:50:59] until very,

[01:51:01] very shortly

[01:51:01] before the vote.

[01:51:02] He was really good

[01:51:03] with Genevieve

[01:51:03] that move the target

[01:51:04] is important

[01:51:05] but he got three last week.

[01:51:06] I think it kind of speaks

[01:51:07] to the power

[01:51:08] that he's had on the tribe

[01:51:09] and I just think

[01:51:10] at this point

[01:51:10] like, you know,

[01:51:11] it's not good

[01:51:11] when you have people

[01:51:12] in your tribe

[01:51:12] that are like

[01:51:13] my issue is

[01:51:13] he's not treating

[01:51:14] the people

[01:51:15] like human beings.

[01:51:15] You know,

[01:51:16] it's too much.

[01:51:17] It's too delusional.

[01:51:18] He was putting his faith

[01:51:19] in the wrong people.

[01:51:19] He was in a worse position

[01:51:20] than I even thought.

[01:51:22] He had less to do

[01:51:23] with last week

[01:51:23] than I thought

[01:51:24] compared to Genevieve

[01:51:25] so I just think

[01:51:25] on the balance

[01:51:26] of everything

[01:51:26] this makes sense

[01:51:27] and that means

[01:51:28] that the charts

[01:51:29] so Sue will be on nine.

[01:51:30] I can't update it

[01:51:31] in real time.

[01:51:32] Teenie on nine.

[01:51:33] Genevieve now on eight.

[01:51:35] Rome is now on seven.

[01:51:36] Sam is on five.

[01:51:38] Andy is now on three.

[01:51:40] Gabe on two.

[01:51:41] I'm seeing the rest

[01:51:42] of the chart now.

[01:51:44] Rachel on one

[01:51:45] and Asia left on one.

[01:51:46] I think that that's right.

[01:51:49] So those are the cheesy charts.

[01:51:51] We did that.

[01:51:53] You really get my Andy pick?

[01:51:55] Andy keeps just like

[01:51:56] racking up like one pointers

[01:51:57] and I think that shows

[01:51:58] he's like slowly building.

[01:51:59] It's happening.

[01:52:00] Sandy's running.

[01:52:01] Sandy's running.

[01:52:01] I also,

[01:52:02] I do get a sense

[01:52:03] that he's someone

[01:52:04] who is going to go deep

[01:52:05] but I'm not sure.

[01:52:10] Winnerability

[01:52:11] is the question

[01:52:12] that I have.

[01:52:13] There are a lot of people

[01:52:14] there that I've listed

[01:52:15] that probably could go deep.

[01:52:18] You know,

[01:52:19] someone like a Rome.

[01:52:20] Do you have a question

[01:52:21] over the winnability

[01:52:23] as well?

[01:52:24] Big questions.

[01:52:26] Yeah.

[01:52:27] But,

[01:52:28] yeah.

[01:52:28] I mean,

[01:52:29] that relationship

[01:52:30] with Genevieve

[01:52:30] is really,

[01:52:31] really key

[01:52:31] and I'm really interested

[01:52:32] to see

[01:52:34] how Genevieve manages it,

[01:52:36] where Sol kind of stood

[01:52:37] on how much he wanted this,

[01:52:38] what the twist is next week

[01:52:40] and it's a great segue

[01:52:40] into my plugs

[01:52:41] because next week

[01:52:43] while everyone's

[01:52:43] hobnobbing in New York,

[01:52:45] I will be on the post-game show

[01:52:46] with Marianne,

[01:52:48] the Know It Girls.

[01:52:49] Yes.

[01:52:50] Oh, wow.

[01:52:51] Yes.

[01:52:53] Going from week to week

[01:52:54] with people I love to talk to

[01:52:55] and you,

[01:52:55] Teresa,

[01:52:56] and Marianne.

[01:52:57] So,

[01:52:58] I'm very lucky,

[01:52:59] Teresa.

[01:53:00] You know,

[01:53:01] what's happening with you?

[01:53:02] Still on Twitter

[01:53:02] at an app

[01:53:04] that has many numbers.

[01:53:05] Hard for people to find.

[01:53:07] The running joke

[01:53:07] that we have.

[01:53:09] Every time I have to tag you,

[01:53:11] I'm like,

[01:53:11] really?

[01:53:11] Is it,

[01:53:12] yeah.

[01:53:13] At least you know

[01:53:14] it's me,

[01:53:15] Shannon.

[01:53:16] You're the only Teresa

[01:53:17] I have,

[01:53:17] but it is Teresa

[01:53:20] 84588399

[01:53:20] and it's just,

[01:53:21] I think,

[01:53:22] hard for people

[01:53:22] to remember.

[01:53:22] I can't tell you that

[01:53:23] off by heart

[01:53:24] because it's like

[01:53:24] so many numbers

[01:53:25] and it's so random.

[01:53:28] Yeah.

[01:53:28] The crazy thing is,

[01:53:29] were there 84,588,398

[01:53:32] other Teresa's?

[01:53:38] I'm pretty sure

[01:53:39] you're right.

[01:53:41] No,

[01:53:42] but that's okay.

[01:53:42] So people can't,

[01:53:43] are you,

[01:53:43] you're not going to tweet?

[01:53:44] Should you tweet through

[01:53:47] your rewatch of the new era

[01:53:49] and first watch of some of it?

[01:53:51] I can do that

[01:53:53] because I'm in that space now

[01:53:54] and it's just,

[01:53:56] it got disrupted this week

[01:53:57] because I was binge watching

[01:53:59] the JST interview.

[01:54:01] So,

[01:54:02] and now that's done.

[01:54:03] So I'm watching again.

[01:54:06] Well,

[01:54:07] yes,

[01:54:07] I think you should tell the people

[01:54:09] your thoughts,

[01:54:09] but

[01:54:10] thank you so much

[01:54:11] for coming onto the podcast,

[01:54:12] Teresa.

[01:54:13] I really always love

[01:54:14] chatting to you.

[01:54:15] We had the podcast crash

[01:54:16] by your child,

[01:54:18] my cat.

[01:54:20] We had a good time.

[01:54:21] I have,

[01:54:22] yeah,

[01:54:23] it's fun.

[01:54:24] It's fun.

[01:54:24] The chaos is fun.

[01:54:25] No,

[01:54:26] it was really a good time.

[01:54:27] I have,

[01:54:27] yeah,

[01:54:27] the after show next week,

[01:54:28] as I said,

[01:54:31] I'm also going to be on

[01:54:31] nothing but Netflix next week

[01:54:33] talking about the Netflix show

[01:54:34] that I binge,

[01:54:35] Nobody Wants This,

[01:54:36] which is about podcasting

[01:54:37] and Judaism.

[01:54:38] So it's just basically

[01:54:38] a show about me

[01:54:40] in different ways.

[01:54:42] And I'm talking about that

[01:54:42] with Chappelle.

[01:54:43] So yeah,

[01:54:43] I'm excited about that.

[01:54:44] That'll come out.

[01:54:45] I don't know when,

[01:54:46] I guess next week.

[01:54:46] We're doing that in a couple of days.

[01:54:47] Oh,

[01:54:48] and then you commented on this.

[01:54:49] I put out my article

[01:54:50] that I said was coming out

[01:54:51] and it did come out.

[01:54:52] Yes,

[01:54:53] I'm worried.

[01:54:54] Do you have thoughts?

[01:54:55] Well,

[01:54:56] for the listeners,

[01:54:57] you haven't read it.

[01:54:58] It's so funny

[01:54:59] that it happened to Fallen.

[01:55:01] Like I said to you,

[01:55:02] I was binge watching

[01:55:03] the JSC interview

[01:55:04] this week,

[01:55:05] which are the,

[01:55:07] the interviews for judges

[01:55:09] for different courts

[01:55:10] in South Africa.

[01:55:11] Yeah,

[01:55:11] I didn't know what it was.

[01:55:12] Yeah.

[01:55:13] Yeah.

[01:55:16] It's a massive week

[01:55:17] of like,

[01:55:18] it's obviously broadcast

[01:55:20] numerous judges

[01:55:21] and I was like,

[01:55:23] this is funny in the week

[01:55:24] that I was,

[01:55:25] I was sitting reading that

[01:55:26] and the kind of questions

[01:55:27] they were asking.

[01:55:29] I really enjoyed your article

[01:55:30] because I think it challenged

[01:55:32] the perception

[01:55:32] that I've always felt.

[01:55:34] I don't know if I've seen this before.

[01:55:35] That's what I wanted to do.

[01:55:36] I wanted to challenge people.

[01:55:37] Yeah,

[01:55:38] I wanted to challenge people

[01:55:39] so I'm really glad

[01:55:39] that it did that.

[01:55:41] But,

[01:55:41] but I,

[01:55:42] I think the thing for me

[01:55:44] has always been

[01:55:44] the emphasis

[01:55:45] is on the players

[01:55:46] versus the jurors

[01:55:47] without taking away

[01:55:49] the,

[01:55:50] obviously,

[01:55:50] we all have our

[01:55:51] biases and everything else

[01:55:52] that comes into play

[01:55:53] as you argued

[01:55:54] in your,

[01:55:54] in your article.

[01:55:56] But,

[01:55:57] we also can't assume

[01:55:59] that jurors have

[01:56:02] greater clarity

[01:56:03] in terms of what is going on

[01:56:04] in the game.

[01:56:06] And,

[01:56:06] and I think that's the argument

[01:56:07] that you were making

[01:56:08] that they were,

[01:56:09] they can be wrong

[01:56:11] based on what their filters are.

[01:56:13] Which is why

[01:56:14] the onus is

[01:56:16] on the players,

[01:56:18] first of all,

[01:56:19] in as far as you can

[01:56:20] control it,

[01:56:22] look at who

[01:56:23] are the,

[01:56:24] the jurors

[01:56:25] who are most likely

[01:56:26] to be on your side.

[01:56:28] I,

[01:56:28] I think,

[01:56:29] and,

[01:56:29] and I got criticized

[01:56:30] for this a lot

[01:56:31] in,

[01:56:32] in my second season,

[01:56:35] was thinking

[01:56:36] too far ahead.

[01:56:37] But I think part of it

[01:56:38] is making sure

[01:56:39] that people

[01:56:40] who are not likely

[01:56:41] to vote to you

[01:56:42] don't make it

[01:56:43] into the jury pool

[01:56:43] to begin with.

[01:56:45] Yeah.

[01:56:45] And that is part

[01:56:46] of the social game.

[01:56:47] So,

[01:56:48] yes,

[01:56:49] jurors can be wrong

[01:56:52] based on

[01:56:55] if their reading

[01:56:56] of the game

[01:56:57] at the time

[01:56:58] is incorrect.

[01:56:59] If their reading

[01:57:00] of the game

[01:57:00] at the time

[01:57:02] is correct

[01:57:02] and is accurate,

[01:57:05] it can't be.

[01:57:06] Yeah.

[01:57:07] I think in terms

[01:57:08] of constructing

[01:57:09] the end game,

[01:57:09] which was a part

[01:57:09] of the article,

[01:57:10] maybe it's more,

[01:57:12] it's less about

[01:57:12] trying to construct

[01:57:13] the jury,

[01:57:14] which is so hard,

[01:57:15] versus,

[01:57:16] especially if like,

[01:57:17] you know,

[01:57:19] you're on other tribes,

[01:57:20] you know,

[01:57:20] you get to a point

[01:57:21] where you're at the merge

[01:57:21] with people

[01:57:22] you can't control

[01:57:23] at all if they go,

[01:57:24] but maybe it's more

[01:57:25] about who you sit next to

[01:57:26] compared to like

[01:57:26] how the jurors

[01:57:27] will feel about

[01:57:28] them compared to you.

[01:57:30] Yeah.

[01:57:30] So the article was like,

[01:57:31] can jurors be wrong?

[01:57:32] I find it to be

[01:57:33] the most contentious,

[01:57:34] controversial.

[01:57:34] I had so much anxiety

[01:57:35] about writing it.

[01:57:36] It took me months

[01:57:36] because sometimes

[01:57:37] I would just be like,

[01:57:37] I cannot look at you anymore.

[01:57:39] I would be like,

[01:57:39] I don't want to publish it.

[01:57:41] People are going

[01:57:41] to call me an idiot.

[01:57:42] And I would just like

[01:57:43] not look at it

[01:57:43] for like three weeks.

[01:57:44] But I'm really proud

[01:57:45] of the article

[01:57:46] and the confessional.

[01:57:49] Thank you.

[01:57:49] The confessional,

[01:57:50] which is what Rob

[01:57:51] and Kevin Jacobs

[01:57:52] are doing.

[01:57:53] It's like,

[01:57:53] it's just like a great way

[01:57:54] to like put out

[01:57:56] kind of like longer form

[01:57:57] essays around reality TV.

[01:57:58] And the reason

[01:57:59] I wanted to do it

[01:58:00] was because they've put out

[01:58:01] a lot of articles

[01:58:01] that have challenged me

[01:58:02] on beliefs that I have

[01:58:03] on like,

[01:58:04] you know,

[01:58:04] lie about your profession.

[01:58:05] Like we spoke about

[01:58:06] that today,

[01:58:06] the mistake.

[01:58:06] I've always said

[01:58:07] that's a huge mistake

[01:58:08] and Kevin wrote

[01:58:08] an article about it

[01:58:09] and I thought,

[01:58:10] this has helped me,

[01:58:10] you know,

[01:58:10] think about things

[01:58:11] in different ways.

[01:58:11] I don't know that I agree,

[01:58:12] but like I'm thinking

[01:58:13] and I just wanted

[01:58:15] to be like thought

[01:58:15] provoking interesting

[01:58:16] that I just wanted

[01:58:17] all the nuance

[01:58:17] that I possibly had

[01:58:18] around what,

[01:58:19] well,

[01:58:19] there's even more

[01:58:20] you could write,

[01:58:21] but it's like my favorite

[01:58:22] topic in Survivor

[01:58:22] because it's so complicated,

[01:58:24] the jury.

[01:58:25] And so I just poured

[01:58:26] everything that I had

[01:58:27] into it

[01:58:28] and then like refined

[01:58:29] it over months

[01:58:30] and I really enjoyed

[01:58:33] doing that.

[01:58:34] So thank you to Kevin

[01:58:34] and Rob

[01:58:35] for giving me

[01:58:36] that platform.

[01:58:36] I would like to follow

[01:58:37] up on that,

[01:58:38] Shannon,

[01:58:38] maybe if it's taken

[01:58:39] you a couple of months,

[01:58:40] maybe it's worth

[01:58:41] looking at,

[01:58:43] I don't know,

[01:58:43] maybe say five

[01:58:44] case studies

[01:58:46] of jurors

[01:58:46] that were considered

[01:58:47] to have made

[01:58:48] the incorrect decision.

[01:58:49] Yeah,

[01:58:50] well,

[01:58:50] one,

[01:58:51] I didn't give

[01:58:51] the example.

[01:58:53] Because the Russell

[01:58:54] Hanson

[01:58:54] is the first one

[01:58:57] that generally

[01:58:58] comes to mind,

[01:58:59] you know,

[01:59:00] as to what

[01:59:01] could have happened.

[01:59:03] Yeah.

[01:59:05] Yeah,

[01:59:06] for me,

[01:59:06] I don't feel like

[01:59:07] Russell is a good,

[01:59:08] I said this in like

[01:59:09] on Facebook

[01:59:09] when I posted it,

[01:59:10] like I don't think

[01:59:10] Russell's a good

[01:59:12] example of

[01:59:13] the kind of

[01:59:13] incorrect jury

[01:59:14] because I kind of

[01:59:15] feel like Russell's

[01:59:16] an example of like

[01:59:16] a terrible social game

[01:59:18] and like if people

[01:59:18] feel terribly about you,

[01:59:19] like in some ways

[01:59:21] maybe you can't

[01:59:21] control that

[01:59:22] and I spoke about

[01:59:22] biases,

[01:59:23] but like Russell could.

[01:59:24] That was on Russell

[01:59:24] and I feel like he

[01:59:25] became the face

[01:59:25] of the movement

[01:59:26] erroneously

[01:59:27] where he

[01:59:28] can be the face

[01:59:29] but maybe other

[01:59:30] people should be

[01:59:30] or more individual

[01:59:31] votes are

[01:59:33] problematic

[01:59:33] or kind of

[01:59:35] difficult to reconcile

[01:59:35] and that's not true

[01:59:36] of me for Russell.

[01:59:37] So I didn't put in

[01:59:38] examples into the article

[01:59:40] because I didn't

[01:59:40] kind of want it

[01:59:41] to become about

[01:59:41] names and stats.

[01:59:42] I wanted to be about

[01:59:44] yeah,

[01:59:44] it was also already

[01:59:45] too long before I got

[01:59:46] into kind of the

[01:59:47] case studies

[01:59:47] but I definitely

[01:59:48] had some examples

[01:59:50] inspiring my thinking.

[01:59:52] Russell is not

[01:59:52] one of them.

[01:59:53] I feel like

[01:59:53] I think you know

[01:59:54] Russell's villains

[01:59:54] is a very good

[01:59:57] discussion around

[01:59:57] that book

[01:59:59] because it was

[01:59:59] almost close enough

[02:00:00] and it was

[02:00:01] the right kind

[02:00:05] of thinking.

[02:00:05] Heroes vs.

[02:00:06] villains

[02:00:06] I think

[02:00:07] long off for Russell.

[02:00:09] Yeah,

[02:00:09] I mean there's so many

[02:00:10] and like I've spoken

[02:00:11] about them on the

[02:00:12] podcast,

[02:00:12] you know,

[02:00:12] in the seasons

[02:00:13] that I've covered

[02:00:14] but I do think

[02:00:16] that the Russell,

[02:00:17] like Russell,

[02:00:18] like he set the

[02:00:19] discussion back

[02:00:19] because now people

[02:00:20] will be like

[02:00:21] Russell should have

[02:00:21] lost,

[02:00:22] your jurors can't be

[02:00:22] wrong.

[02:00:23] It's like no,

[02:00:23] Russell should have

[02:00:24] lost because he

[02:00:25] had a bad social

[02:00:26] game.

[02:00:26] It's actually not

[02:00:26] as much even

[02:00:27] about the jury.

[02:00:28] It's much more

[02:00:29] just about the

[02:00:29] fact that like

[02:00:30] that one's quite

[02:00:31] cut and dry for me

[02:00:32] and I think there's

[02:00:32] more complex

[02:00:33] quotes that are

[02:00:33] more nuanced

[02:00:34] than Russell

[02:00:35] but yeah,

[02:00:35] I didn't give

[02:00:36] the examples

[02:00:36] but that's a

[02:00:37] fun guessing game.

[02:00:38] Read the article,

[02:00:38] let me know who

[02:00:39] you think I'm

[02:00:40] subtweeting in

[02:00:41] the content

[02:00:42] and if you've

[02:00:43] listened to my

[02:00:43] podcast about

[02:00:44] some of these

[02:00:45] final decisions,

[02:00:46] some of that

[02:00:46] might be quite

[02:00:47] clear but I

[02:00:48] didn't want to

[02:00:48] take it all the

[02:00:49] way there but

[02:00:49] you know,

[02:00:50] I'm going to

[02:00:50] probably retweet

[02:00:51] it again in

[02:00:52] case you've

[02:00:52] missed it.

[02:00:52] It's on

[02:00:54] the confessional

[02:00:55] if you go to

[02:00:55] Rob has a

[02:00:55] website and

[02:00:56] go to

[02:00:56] newsletter.

[02:00:57] They're doing

[02:00:57] great stuff

[02:00:58] every week.

[02:00:58] Sign up and

[02:00:58] then you get

[02:00:59] it to your

[02:01:00] inbox every

[02:01:01] week.

[02:01:01] I always really

[02:01:02] enjoy the

[02:01:02] articles.

[02:01:02] I love being

[02:01:03] part of it.

[02:01:04] Yeah,

[02:01:04] that's it.

[02:01:05] Subscribe to

[02:01:05] the International

[02:01:06] Cyber Hub

[02:01:06] Hub feed.

[02:01:07] Follow me

[02:01:07] at Shannon

[02:01:08] Gates.

[02:01:08] Don't miss

[02:01:09] the after show

[02:01:09] next week.

[02:01:10] That's where

[02:01:10] I'll be.

[02:01:11] So I'm not

[02:01:11] doing

[02:01:11] Survivor

[02:01:12] Global but

[02:01:12] I'll be

[02:01:12] on the

[02:01:13] after show.

[02:01:14] That's all

[02:01:14] I have to

[02:01:14] give,

[02:01:15] Teresa.

[02:01:15] Thank you

[02:01:15] so much

[02:01:15] for the

[02:01:16] two hours

[02:01:16] that we

[02:01:16] spent together.

[02:01:17] And this

[02:01:17] was on

[02:01:17] video,

[02:01:18] by the way.

[02:01:18] If you

[02:01:18] missed the

[02:01:19] video,

[02:01:20] you missed

[02:01:20] my cat,

[02:01:21] you missed

[02:01:21] Teresa's son,

[02:01:22] and you

[02:01:23] missed out.

[02:01:23] So now I'm

[02:01:25] done.

[02:01:26] Thank you.

[02:01:27] Thank you.

[02:01:28] Bye,

[02:01:29] Shannon.

[02:01:29] Thank you so

[02:01:30] much.

[02:01:30] Thank you to

[02:01:30] everyone for

[02:01:30] listening.

[02:01:31] Thank you to

[02:01:31] our team

[02:01:31] behind the

[02:01:32] scenes.

[02:01:32] And I

[02:01:33] will see

[02:01:33] you on

[02:01:33] the

[02:01:33] after show.

[02:01:34] Bye.

[02:01:35] Bye.

[02:01:39] Bye.

[02:01:39] Bye.

[02:01:43] Bye.

[02:01:43] Bye.