Survivor Global: Assessing the Jury, the Winner and the Season | S48 Finale with Jacques Burger

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[00:00:36] Survivor New Zealand Survivor Survivor Survivors 21 South African 12 ordinary Australians 13 New Zealand Swamma 1 Million pounds Million Euro Million Euro Tri-Bas-Voters Tri-Bas-Voters The adventure of a lifetime Adventure

[00:01:06] Hello everyone and welcome to RHAP's coverage of Survivor 48 for Survivor Global. I'm your host Shannon Gus, here to talk about the finale. So much egg on my face. I don't want to tell you how much of the last couple of days was spent with Peter trying to work out the logistics of if I could crack an egg over my head. He was like, you can't do this on carpet. I was like, I want to do it. I deserve it. The proverbial egg is being cracked over my head because I thought Joe had it and he did not. Karl was right. I was wrong.

[00:01:34] And that's why he has a million dollars and I do not. So we're going to talk about it and to talk about it. But I have such a wonderful guest who were talking a little bit before the podcast that this season in many ways is similar to his own. So a lot of, you know, on island insights from this person. It is a great Jacques Berger. Jacques, thank you for being here. Hi Shannon. Thank you so much. Yeah, we can get on to the season.

[00:01:56] But before we talk about the egg on your face, there is something we should discuss, which kind of segues into the last discussion we had in our previous podcast. Now I know it's not 2021 anymore and most people have forgotten about Wordle, but you and I have the most bizarre Wordle experience, run of events I've ever seen in my life. This was like supernatural. Like I said, I only believe in cat tarot cards and nothing else, but also the power of spiritual Wordle. So remind me what happened.

[00:02:26] So the last time we podcasted, you were saying how jealous you were that I had gotten Wordle in one, that I had gotten with my first starting word cloud, right? Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, this is like what, there's a scene in Big Bang Theory where Sheldon tells, I don't know if it's Leonard or, no, he tells Penny. He says, my name is Penny, right? Ah, yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:02:51] He says, this is what people who don't have an understanding of large numbers would call a coincidence. Now, there is a massive, massive coincidence to like the whole run of events what we had. So yes, I, we were like at the end of our previous podcast. I was like, you know, you had such a successful year because you got the world right for the first time. And this is bizarre because then you say you use the word cloud. And then you said you got it right. You're so happy. And you work a theater in the middle of the night, whatever. Yeah. And then I said, and this, because I went back and listened to this.

[00:03:21] Just, I went back and listened to that part. It was so insane. Then I said, I used to use the word horse. Okay. But then I heard that sometime when I didn't play it, it actually got used. So I changed, so I changed my name, but I didn't tell you what I changed it to. So I then scrambled horse to the word shore. But I didn't tell you at the time. I just said I didn't use horse anymore. I just used shore. And then we podcasted out on the Sunday.

[00:03:45] And then two days, three days later, you send me kind of the word all, if you just get the, like you share it. And it just gives you like the three green things. And I wake up and I make coffee and I say, oh, Shannon sent me this message. Like you got the word all right again, five green ones. I'm like, wow, that's really cool. And then I type in my word at the time, which is shore. No, it wasn't shore. It was shore. It was S-H-O-R-E. Was it grain? It was grain. I never did shore.

[00:04:16] No, it was definitely grain. Was it grain? Yeah, it was grain. Then I changed my word from shore. Anyway. You had changed your, we have this conversation. You had changed your word at some point you were doing grain. You never told me you were doing grain. I happened to also be doing grain. Yes. Yes. And then I didn't tell you what I changed it to. Yeah, that's right. And then I like, I, you give me the five green things and I give you the five green things back and you go like, what, how, why? And it was, I've ever had this conversation.

[00:04:45] Like we were both like, did we, did we talk about it? Anyway. Yeah. We got, you got word right. And then two days later, we both got word right with not deciding what our word was. Um, yeah. I will now say my new word word is not tribe, but it's actually not a great word. It sucks, but it. That's a terrible starting word firstly. Secondly. So just to recap, we talked about getting word in one within that same week. We both got word in one with the same word without talking about the fact that we both

[00:05:13] happened to have the same word, which again, however many starting words you can have is. I don't know the numbers. It's, it's, it's infinite. Somebody who doesn't understand large numbers would say it's a coincidence, but it is a very highly unlikely coincidence. Um, but yeah, so I'm not. It happens so soon. Yeah. The odds that I would even get word in one twice, I think is already really crazy in the space of three months also. So the first story I told, but we got it with cloud.

[00:05:43] Peter was asleep because I'm so sad that word is like the best part of my day. And sometimes he does asleep at midnight. I want to do it. So I did, I did it and he was asleep and I woke him up and he was annoyed that he hadn't seen me get it in one. And he also had been woken up then when it was grain. Also, I did it. He wasn't asleep, but he wasn't looking at the screen. He was like, I was like, then now recently my new word. Now we're discussing it is grown G R O A. And I just went from grain to grown and I did it when he wasn't looking.

[00:06:13] And it was G R O W N. It was the other grown, but I saw my marriage flash before my eyes where I was like, if that W wasn't a, I think that's the end of us. And yet have I learned my lesson or do I keep doing it when he's not looking? It's the, it's, um, it's a second one. So if Peter and I ever split up, like the, that, that is the only reason. That's the only thing. Yeah. We have a very strong foundation, but like, we cannot, we cannot take a third time of me getting word in one without him looking. We just simply can't survive it.

[00:06:39] So your, your poor world conduct could be the reason your marriage ends on the rocks. Yeah. Well that, that W saved it. We got it in two. And I was like, save from myself. And he was like, you are so lucky. And I was like, but I will not learn. So yeah, crazy stuff, but I don't think it's ever going to be grown though. I think I should change it to something. I feel like, I don't know. Maybe it will be grown. I feel like they already did grown with a W. They probably won't do it with an A now. Yeah. I think I use, now that I'm thinking about it, I think I use brain. And then I felt like what's happened to them. I changed the grain.

[00:07:09] I think that's how I remember it now instead of the always sure thing. But anyway, now I'm using tribe to say one day you don't split it to me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One more thing on this on our seven minutes of word. When we have so much to talk about this finale, I also said Marianne, my word on my word a score. We send each other every day. And then she sends me a rebus, but I have to work out what yesterday's word was that she just did. It's a really fun game. Actually, today I was doing it with my friend. I'm like, what flag is this? And she's like, what app are you using? I'm like, this is just my friend, Marianne who sends me a rebus every day and emoji Rebus.

[00:07:39] But anyway, so every day of the times that I got it in one, I would say to her, I'm like, Marianne, do you know my starting word? Cause I don't want to send it in one. I'll spoil word for her. Yeah. I did that once. I did it twice. The third time when it was grown, I was like, you know, my starting word. She was like a third time. I was like, no, not in one, but very, pretty freaking close. So yeah. Anyway, word old discussion over chapter two, survivor 48. I was unlike word multiple times. Very wrong. I want to discuss it.

[00:08:08] Um, I will say for this finale, I had such high hopes because I think that the kind of question between like Joe and Kyle and like, at least that slow moving tension through the season, let alone like who will win Joseph's big threat, but Kyle's undermining him in this like novel way. Is that going to work? That's like definitely the most interesting question of the finale. I felt the finale didn't tell that particularly well in a final proper council that was fairly muted. I think because Joe and Kyle are quite like humble guys and they weren't like, I thought Kyle had a lot of great points, but like neither were hitting it super hard.

[00:08:37] I felt like the question of like, why is Joe here? Didn't even come up. If I was a juror, I would have been like, Joe, did you manipulate Kyle into bringing you here or like, Kyle is just your agency. No one is talking about it. So I feel like the conversations we've had off the show about it are very interesting. I felt like this wasn't told well on the finale. I'm kind of capping off an unfortunate run of like, especially like post merge episodes that felt pretty flat for me, but I know that it might've been somewhat triggering to

[00:09:05] watch like a big strong dominant group march to the end for you. How did you feel about this season and how it ended up in this finale? I think the one thing that was, yeah, I think there's a couple of things. I need to get my thoughts on it. I think the first one is like you said, I think this season kind of felt a lot like our season where there was this big group of people saying, you know, out of the, you know, 13

[00:09:33] people in the merge, whatever, there's this group of seven or eight people saying we're a group and we're not going to break. And then there's like these out, these people on the outside, like, can't they would call the loose change lines, whatever. They could have made a move a lot of times and, you know, take down this big four group. But everybody kind of dead end all said, I'll make it move next week. I mean, we even had the one confessional from Mitch saying, I know people at home are going, why aren't you making the move, Mitch? But Mitch, but you can do it.

[00:10:02] I don't have enough collateral or ammunition or whatever. So it kind of felt like the whole, like a repetition of our season of just the score group, just team rolling to the end with their kind of, you know, we stay true to our people. So that was kind of frustrating to watch because I always say if you play Survivor, you should play to win and not play not to lose, which is different.

[00:10:30] But I think obviously the difference is when our season, when this happened, like the spin out was kind of very negative. And the way it was handled wasn't always, you know, very PC, whatever. Where on the other side, I think, I think in this season, it was quite good. You know, people were very positive. They were very uplifting. So I think they did the same. It was like the same movie, just a different genre. It wasn't a horror show. It was a feel good drama.

[00:11:01] Yeah, I think that if anything, people were too nice. It's interesting that people, they've been getting so much hate, which is awful, but mostly because the season was dull. Mostly, I think due to like everyone being a little too congenial, like especially watching the X interviews, everyone seems like a lovely person, a little like too lovely. Maybe like that's why it was like maybe so chill. Even this final travel council, it's like, I don't want to like sledge them. And I think it's so interesting because they would reference 46 a lot. And I felt like the season was a bit of a response to 46 and it's like it turned it on its head, like derogatory,

[00:11:28] because 46 was so interesting, but also toxic. And I feel like 46, they're like fighting with each other at final tribal council, literally with the jury. Compared to Hero, it's so congenial. And I feel like there's been, you know, the comparisons made of how Maria like stabbed Charlie in the back. Unlike any juror ally I've really ever seen to that level compared to what Camilla does for Kyle. I feel also feel like Banu and Sei are like interesting parallel outliers of these like pre-jury outliers.

[00:11:57] So I really like this idea that it's like flipping 46 completely on its head and maybe it was a response to it. I mean, a few of the reasons I thought Joe would win. Firstly, I had just seen story beat strategy in the broadest of terms. And I felt like Joe had a much better story than Kenzie, whose story was basically I'm a salon owner, which is a great profession. And if anything, I thought actually also had more. I thought Joe had more like strategy in that. I thought felt like he constructed so much of the structure of the season.

[00:12:23] And then in terms of like Charlie V Kyle, I thought that like Kyle had a lot of like interesting behind the scenes strategy, which we'll talk about. But Charlie, I thought had more like really clear of like active strategy that was very visible. So in terms of like strategy versus story, I felt like the gap was even smaller here and strategy had lost out last time. So if it was story was going to win, like Joe had had more of it, whereas I feel like he had like more story and more strategy.

[00:12:51] Kenzie had just won having less strategy. And I thought less story than Joe compared to like the big strategy of Charlie. So I really felt like strategy wouldn't win here when there was like, yeah, even less of that visibly from Kyle if any of this is making sense. So, yeah, I thought as well, like with Joe that, you know, the big thing for me was that they kept saying in confessional that he was going to win.

[00:13:15] And I felt I feel like it's a principle for me on Survivor that when jurors say like this person is going to win even less likeable people like Mike Holloway compared to Joe, they will vote for them to be like, I was right when I was threatening you. I meant that they were going to win. You should have taken the shot. And the other thing that I think you can really speak to is Kyle said in ex interviews, he's like I was a Trojan horse. People would come to me and I'd be like, not now.

[00:13:37] I feel like usually people hate that. Like we talk about the Monica Culpepper, you certainly had people that you were going to in that like Camilla role that you were in the Mary role being like, let's do something. And when that person says no, I feel like often you're more annoyed at that person than the person that they're enabling, like they're the enablers, which is annoying. And Kyle was that and he didn't suffer for it. So those are the principles I was kind of working against, some of which I think can be explained, some not.

[00:14:00] But like, yeah, how did you see it? Did you come in thinking Joe or Kyle were going to win in this like duality that they didn't even really present, but that certainly seemed to exist, I think. Coming into the finale, I actually thought Camilla was going to win because, you know, we, it's kind of a typical thing of a season, you know, the first, the first couple of episodes, you know, we only saw the, was it the Vula tribe? Like back to back to back to back. Yeah. I mean, that happens if you, yeah, these seasons, if you get like in a rolling, losing streak.

[00:14:29] And the same thing we saw with 40, 46 with Varnu and his tribe. So then you kind of don't get to see the other tribes as well, but you only saw them like throughout the middle of the season. But when Camilla got like the spotlight shown on her, like kind of midway through the merge and was like more and more of a thing, a focus on her and her relationship. Well, I thought, you know, she's, she's going to go the distance.

[00:14:54] And what I will say is just briefly on, on your reference of Charlie and Maria, I think the difference is, and I don't, I don't, as soon as I see there's like a personal attack or whatever on social media, like I just scroll through because I don't, my personal life or on social media care about those things. But I did see that, you know, kind of, there was like a bit of animosity with Charlie and Maria afterwards about why she didn't vote for him and all those things and how it played out in the jury.

[00:15:20] I don't exactly, I purposely didn't want to read it, but I think the difference is, it's clear that, you know, Kyle and Camilla had a good relationship and a working relationship as well. We talked about that in a minute, but I think when he sent her home and they were kind of open about it, like, it's going to be you or me tonight. And then, you know, she went home. I think, I think she filled in that night and I think she filled in the jury with like a lot of tea of like, guys, there's something you like you guys really don't understand about me and Kyle.

[00:15:47] And I think she kind of told them the story first when they heard it at the Pondrosa about how they're working together, all the good things Kyle has been doing, et cetera. So I think kind of the last message they got was like this, oh, wow, we didn't realize that. And she was kind of, I think, really boosting him up. Well, I don't know if the same happened on 46. So I think that might have swayed that that might've been the change of, yeah, it's going to be Joe to like, hey, wait, Kyle's been doing this all along.

[00:16:12] Are you serious? He's really been playing against, wasn't, you know, being one of Robin and Nicole's journeys. You know, he wasn't one of, one of Ethan's and Joe's journeys all along. Like, no guys, you have no idea he was actually against them the whole time. And I think that made him go, oh, wow. So he was part of a resistance all along. Good on him. And then he got to get in. And then, so I think I'm not saying that debate and that's how it played out. But I think that's what I would kind of, fan fiction in my mind, the differences. I think that's how it, that's the discerning factors.

[00:16:41] That's interesting. And there's a few things. Firstly, it'd be funny if they're like, we should all be nice to each other. Look at how mean they were to the 40, like the fans were to the 46 cast to Maria and stuff for being like, you know, not nice to each other. And now everyone's like, you're too nice. Like fight, fight, fight. There's really no winning. Please don't play for the fans for that reason alone. But if that's what it is, if that's the difference of like, Joe is like broadly story and Kyle is strategy. We've just seen story beat strategy.

[00:17:04] But this time we had the ally, instead of dooming the strategic guy and actually being the vote for him to win, going in, not just being the vote for the strategic guy to come over the top of story, but explaining it all. If that's what it is, if it comes down to a day 25 story from Camilla or anything at final tribal council that gets him over the edge of Joe, I like Kyle's win quite a bit less. Like I understand that at the very least he's making the bet. That is Joe won't speak super well at final tribal council.

[00:17:34] He's quite passive at final tribal council. He's like way too humble. He won't be able to speak to a game and I'm going to exploit the issues in his game to really give me that opportunity at final tribal council. And I'll hopefully have Camilla on the jury and she'll tell it. I understand that those are all good bets to make, but if he needed it to like push him over Joe, I think it's a, you know, more tricky bet. And I don't like it as much because I think for a lot of what I'm doing of passing out Kyle's game is intentionality. Is it? And what's the reason he's doing it? Is it? I really like Joe.

[00:18:03] I don't want to vote out Joe because then Joe's doing a lot of that, right? Then Joe's like manipulating Kyle into keeping him around on his amazing social game. I mean, we hear that like, as an example, Kyle's like talking about his incarceration too, as a shock that no one knew about. Joe knew about it. There's a really important social relationship there that they're both putting in the work on, but I think it shows Joe's social game.

[00:18:23] And I think a lot of when we look at like what's results oriented versus what's earned, if he's making an emotional decision for Joe and then it happens to work out or it works out in a more unforeseeable way, then that's results oriented, you know? And then I'm like thinking Joe manipulated him into making a decision that wasn't always in his best interest. If he knew it was always in his best interest and he always felt like the jury would never be picking up what Joe was putting down and he felt like that was a surer bet and Joe was going to get one vote. So then I'm really high on it, you know, because that's on like long-term read.

[00:18:53] That's on like complete agency. That's not being manipulated at all. It's in his best interest. So if it was the day before and Camilla's giving that or he's giving that a final tribal council, sure, he makes good on it. But if it's dicey, I don't love it as much. If it's more like I happen to like Joe and I didn't have to betray him, which is a great side note to the fact of what I actually thought would happen is I knew I would beat Joe. Then I think that there's no notes, you know, like that's like a fine thing to do. And I'm willing to give Kyle the benefit of the doubt because I have not to this point and I have egg on my face because of that. I'm willing to be gracious.

[00:19:21] I'm hoping it's like 80% he really thought it was a strong bet and he went into it, which we'll talk about to extremes on undermining Joe. And 20% like he also liked Joe and he, as he said, like got to eat his cake and eat it, half of his cake and eat it too, as much as we heard about cake in this finale. And I don't know how gross that joke was. Yeah. So, yeah, so he got to do that. If it's like 50-50, I don't like it. If it's like, you know, getting past 50% of him just wanting to work with Joe, because we do hear in X interviews and confessionals, he's talking about he wants a moral out.

[00:19:51] He wants to keep his word. Like he wants to beat the best. He said all of this in ways that are not, you know, he's not manipulating anyone. He's saying it to me in confessional or in an X interview. Those are my questions, but I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought this was best for his game. And to his credit, he was so correct. So I hope that was always the plan and the plan like went off without a hitch long term. Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:20:16] And I think one other thing I also saw briefly on some of the socials was people was complaining about the edit kind of sometimes being a bit, you know, I don't know if I speak much about the edit, but saying, you know, there was some misdirection, which at times, you know, and some things they didn't show us, which was quite prominent. Coming back, listening to just what Kyle said, which is quite interesting. But he said, I think he might say something when he spoke to Rob about, you know, 98% of the conversations he had with Camilla, that was what was actually shown on the TV.

[00:20:46] So it's like they really only got, and that's just quite interesting because in Survivor, there's like so much conversation and just random harassment that's happening. But the fact that he said like every single conversation he had with her was made the edit, that kind of just showed you how sporadically they did communicate, which is actually bizarre that they managed to pull it off. And then he's actually said that he was a lot closer to Shadeen. So I mean, again, I know it's an edited story and we get an edited version,

[00:21:14] but I'm just wondering how much of this, you know, your hot take, which didn't end up being a hot take about Joey going to win. How much of that is you misreading the situation or how much of it is that Survivor didn't give you all the info to make that decision or to understand kind of how it plays out in the end? Yes. I thought that the edit was making a Joe win more interesting last week, right? Every time I was like, but Kyle's the most confessionals. I'm like, because they're trying to hide how obvious this like Rob Bentele style win is from Joe.

[00:21:44] It's not that. I think Kyle's win is very unique and interesting. And I think parts of it are really hard to communicate in actuality. I like, I don't think that the edit is necessarily doing that. Like even like in X interviews now, he's like, I didn't feel like I could betray Joe. I felt like the jurors weren't going to vote for the fact that I betrayed them. And then a lot of those jurors like do vote for him. So I can't say that the read on the jury is perfect. There are so many confusing things in the edit that might just be confusing.

[00:22:11] Like I need to understand kind of these murky things from a jury of how at the final six, you know, Mitch and Camilla are like, oh, they fed Joe. Joe, the big threat Joe. I need to find out how at the final five, Kyle can call Joe in confession was biggest threat. But then he and Camilla are rightly saying they're not worried about Joe and Eva. Like some of it's the conflicting information. I don't think that the jury votes are invalid. I think that this was very earned, very valid. I think Kyle purposely did a lot of this. I just have questions around it.

[00:22:36] And I think that it was just actually quite difficult to communicate from an edit standpoint because it's a unique season that goes against, I think, some of the principles of the show. I'm Charissa and my Empfehlung to all entrepreneurs start with Shopify successfully. I use Shopify already since the first day. And the platform makes me no problem. I have many problems, but the platform is never one of them. I have the feeling that Shopify their platform continuously optimizes.

[00:23:05] Everything is super einfach, integriert and verlinkable. And the time and the money that I do so spare, can I invest in other ways.

[00:23:24] I can invest in other ways. In Wachstum. Jetzt kostenlos testen auf Shopify.de Ich bin Charissa und meine Empfehlung an alle Entrepreneure startet mit Shopify erfolgreich durch. Ich verwende Shopify schon seit dem ersten Tag.

[00:23:54] Und die Plattform macht mir nie Probleme. Ich habe viele Probleme, aber die Plattform ist nie eins davon. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass Shopify ihre Plattform kontinuierlich optimiert. Alles ist super einfach, integriert und verlinkbar. Und die Zeit und das Geld, das ich dadurch spare, kann ich anderweitig investieren. Vor allem in Wachstum. Jetzt kostenlos testen auf Shopify.de The other thing that I think is interesting is 50 rumors aside of like who might even be returning from this season.

[00:24:21] The show was so wrapped up in Joe and Eva's story. Hearing on Know It Alls, Rob said that Joe and Eva, the day of the finale, were doing press about their relationship. And then they were going to be the two losing finalists. If I had known that, I would have been even higher on the fact that Joe was going to win. It was so tied up in this relationship. And I think from a story perspective. And I think that there's like a tonal dissonance with the winner and the kind of vibe of the season. I'd love to get your take.

[00:24:49] Like, I wonder if like, does the car win over like a presumptive Joe win for me? Make the season better or worse? Because I feel like it is less cohesive and less in theme. And I still would say the defining moment of the season has to be Eva's moment in episode five, where Joe goes across to her in that relationship. But now that doesn't define the win. So I think it's more confusing. I think it's less on theme. But I do think it's very interesting. So for me, I'm kind of like fine with it either way. But yeah, I don't think it goes to the theme. Like if Joe wins, it validates the like strength mentality. That's like big strong group.

[00:25:18] Like it speaks for itself. Kyle does not validate that. And I think they found it really hard to tell that clear narrative. I think maybe. No, I think you're right. And I'm actually quite jealous of Kyle and Kamala because that's kind of in my mind. Like the game I imagined KingTing and I playing was like this. I mean, like even on our season when, you know, KingTing went home, people were like, yeah, well. Nobody was like, hey, you know, you guys are super close. Vote out your best ally. But because we didn't actually speak that much either.

[00:25:47] It was just kind of the one conversation we had. I was like, hey, listen, you're not really like this. Your parents don't own like a big incorporation. You're like, you're a doctor, right? Something like that. It's like, how do you know? Whatever. So we always also like really short conversations, not to make it obvious. And that's kind of the game I wish I could have played. But that being said, I think Kyle's win, like you say, is very interesting because it's.

[00:26:14] And now we're getting on the board in the HMS, you know, court of public opinion of this is a boarding season. And why didn't people, you know, people didn't enjoy it as much. If people are like super negative, like, yeah, this season is all, it's not fun to watch. And if people are like, it's all advantages, idols are like, yeah, the game should be more clear. And then there's no advantages or relationship. Like, oh, the game's so bland. So that's kind of what people always do. They'll find a reason to complain.

[00:26:40] But I think to answer your question, I think Kyle's win in my, I agree with you, it's a very unique win. And I think especially in the modern era, at least, I think it's kind of the first time where somebody got to be in and like, I was in the core group. But I also had a secret alliance that nobody knew about and got to be in in that way. I mean, they got all three of their people in, of the core alliance and the final tribal council, right?

[00:27:04] Which, you know, something you don't often see, especially in modern survival with kind of poking blocks and the fluid gameplay. So the fact that one time they actually did manage to form a, build a bus and drive the bus to the end. And then got one of the people on the bus to win the game. I think it's quite unique from a winner's perspective. And I think Kyle did exactly the right thing.

[00:27:27] And I think he understood the perception of Eva and Joe and that they, the two of them being seen as a duo could potentially split votes. I mean, he can, maybe would have a plurality. So. Yeah. I want to talk about splitting votes. Yeah. Okay. Firstly, there's a lot to say on splitting votes, because this is something Camilla brings up about whether she and Kyle will split votes. I think this is a fallacy. Now, I thought a lot of things were a fallacy this time last week that were proven wrong.

[00:27:55] But I do think that this situation is quite unique. But I do think on splitting votes, I think it's unlikely to be the reason someone who was going to win loses. We did see, we were worried about this happening in Survivor New Zealand. We thought it was basically Tess was going to definitely get three votes out of seven. And we worried that the other, that Lisa and Dave would get two, two of an alliance of like kind of four who tended to more like Lisa and Dave. But if they split it, it was going to be a three, two, two. She was never getting more than her three allies. But we were like, it could definitely be three, two, two.

[00:28:25] And then, no, they all just voted for three. They weren't going to like screw it up that badly. And I think that like people will move to get on the same page. Lisa's my horse in the next season, by the way. I think you're grain in the next season. My tribe. Yeah, your tribe. I'm tribe Lisa in the next season of Survivor Australia, by the way. Just so you know. I thought it was, yeah, really interesting. I've actually been thinking a bit about that vote.

[00:28:54] It was like kind of like ranked voting. It was like, like Tess had like three votes. And like Lisa and Dave probably had two votes each. But like she, but then like in ranked voting, like four people had Tess third. So it ended up being like this four, three where they like combined their votes. Because they're like, we're not going to screw that up. And I want to say that, yeah, it was so rare that even in this season that all three of the finalists got a vote. Yeah, I mean, when was last time it happened? I saw something. It was last time it happened was like 37 or something.

[00:29:23] 35, I think. Yeah. 35, yeah, that's crazy. So, I mean, firstly, Mary voting wrong is amazing. Cedric voting alone, very funny. All of this is perfect. But from a narrative perspective. But yeah, I think that even then, like they're splitting minority votes. And even that, I think, is an anomaly in a very strange season that like mostly relies on Cedric doing something weird, which we can kind of bank on. Even like there was one plurality vote win in 5 South African champions. And I was looking at that today. And even I don't think that that's like what like, you know, stopped Booklaif who had three votes.

[00:29:53] It was a 5-3-2. I don't think that's what stopped her from getting the win. If anything, it probably could have been like 7-3, but instead it was 5-2-3. Like it's, I don't think, I will be wrong in the future. It's very unlikely that a frontrunner will lose because they split votes and someone will come over the top. It's rare enough to get three votes across the board. I think more of the issue is that for Camilla and Kyle, they were each other's like outright threat. That like the jury would largely choose like Kyle over Camilla or Camilla over Kyle.

[00:30:21] That like they had the same votes up for grabs. Not to split them, but just to be chosen on like that's our horse or our grain in the race. So like a Chrissy vote, a lot of the Siva votes, I think Kyle probably had David, but like Mitch or Chrissy, even like Shaheed who seemed to kind of see what both of them were doing. Yeah. I think that splitting votes is something of an anomaly, but yeah, I mean, it was interesting that they don't want to sit next to each other. And I think as well, this is something that made me higher on Kyle's win than I thought it would be.

[00:30:47] Because something that I had as an issue with Kyle's win was, okay, even if he can beat Joe at the end, why would you give Joe so much agency where he seems to be really good at fire? He made that bonfire in the pre-merge and he's maybe going to win a challenge. And then you're going to be up against Camilla against fire. Now that I know Camilla was bad at fire, Kyle backed himself at fire and he didn't want to sit next to Camilla. I'm like, oh, that's a perfect situation. So it kind of made for a pretty easy season where apparently it was just about sitting next to Joe and Eva. How much they knew that? Debatable. That's the question.

[00:31:16] And if they knew that and everyone's just trying to do that, it's just about leapfrogging all the other people to sit next to Joe and Eva, get to a final four and easy out that the season and the new era affords them. And that's clear from like eight, you know, and then just like do that. And if you can rely on yourself at fire, which someone like Kyle can, like that's the game. So I'm not mad at him seeding agency or not having a final four locked up or anything like that, because I feel like he's in with a good majority and he's gotten himself to like the perfect position where he seems to know that's going to go well. And I also think that.

[00:31:46] I was so wrong on the jury that I'm especially willing to credit his read because it's not just like he beat Joe. It's like Eva getting more votes than Joe, the jury being so high on Camilla, I didn't see coming. So he was reading that they were happy to like vote for this outsider mentality compared to like the strength. And he was going to be that. And like all the credit team for that, because I was completely misreading this jury compared to what he clearly was. I mean, Shannon, you have rights. You can have an opinion. That's fine.

[00:32:15] And if you're wrong, I can be blatantly wrong. I can spend an entire Thursday watching the finale and then being like, what am I doing? Why am I even podcasting? Why does anyone listen to me? And then just like go through the motions and then work it out over a weekend. That's what I really love. That's what I really love now being back to back in the finale because nobody can say, oh, you were wrong because it's the best part to be. It's absolutely the best part. Yeah, you thought Joe was going to win, right? You thought Camilla was going to win. You were more right than me, though. I can just come.

[00:32:45] Next time I'm just going to come and say, I knew Kyle was going to win from episode one. I knew it all along. Can I say on this, on my husband who might divorce me over Wordle, firstly, I was choosing between Thomas and Kyle as my Winnipeg. Damn you, Thomas, for being so damn charismatic. Secondly, I was listening to Kyle's preseason interview like in the car at 1.8 times. Peter got in the car at like, for a couple of minutes of it, he's like, this guy's going to win. I have to credit my husband. He was like, I'm like, yeah, I might make him my Winnipeg. Peter was like, do it. Did I?

[00:33:13] No, but I do not learn, Jacques. I'm stupid. Who won the Know-It-All draft? The draft with all of us, it was Puja, but I've been out of it for so long. Clearly my read on this season was nowhere to be found because I've been out of the draft for two months. Yeah, so it just shows. Sorry, you were saying. No, I was, I forgot what I was going to say now. I interrupted. How wrong I was. We'll work back.

[00:33:42] I was super wrong. Oh, yeah, I said about you can have an opinion. I always, you can have an opinion, but your opinion shouldn't negative influence people. That's what I always say. But I think, I think it all comes down to just, I think like you're saying about, about Kyle. I think the thing that he had with Camilla, and I'll just say it again, I think the thing that he had with Camilla was so good and so well executed. And I think he had a lot more information.

[00:34:11] Like you said, I think the read that he got and the perception that he had that we are like the core three. So if we get the three of us in, we'll win. But I think watching the finale, you said, oh, you were wrong. I said, I watched it and I looked at Haley and I said, you know what's going to happen? The moment he won the Samotion Challenge, I said, what's going to happen? He's going to win Samotion. He's going to go into Final Shumbo Council. He's going to put himself in the position to make fire against Camilla. But he ensures he wins her.

[00:34:41] He knocks her out because he can make, I think, better than her. I think she'd do worse than him. And then he's going to send her out, say, I'm really sorry, but, you know, we had to do it and that's how he's going to win. So I was also wrong kind of just my read on the finale as well about how we do it. Because I think that would have been also kind of, but then people say, oh, it's the fire making challenge because he won the fire. That's why he won the season. But I think that would also have been kind of a good way to say similar to what Tony did. Like you and I are a duo, Sarah.

[00:35:11] Unfortunately, I have to take you out for me to get to the end. And not that he put himself in that position, but kind of saying, I need to be the one to beat you so that I can win the season. I thought that was going to happen. Yeah. Well, that's again what the edit is saying. This is what I'm saying with the confusing edit is like, and again, I've said this before. You can't take anything from faces jurors or players make at final tribal council where like it can be edited at any time. The show was communicating shock to us when he says he's taking Joe. Why?

[00:35:39] If Joe is a goat, why is that confusing and shocking show? Anyway, it's fine. But that was the kind of thing where I was like, oh, it looks like now the question's going to be, why did you take Joe? And he can say, oh, because I thought I could beat Joe. I'm like happy. I'm not threatened by him. And then Joe will be like, no, it's because of our relationship. And I thought that was going to be a back and forth that was not addressed at final tribal council. But yeah, I mean, I thought that taking Joe through was such an embodiment of his entire strategy,

[00:36:08] which was to undermine Joe, which was so novel. Something I had, again, wrongly, stupidly undermined myself. You know, last week when he does that on Shaheen, I'm like, it's not enough. Like, I need a big move. Like, I feel like Occam's Razor. Like, you take out the big threat. Like, that's how many winners, especially in the new era, have won. And he's like, no. It's not what Occam's Razor means. If you do it in science, you take out the biggest threat. That's the new definition. Yeah, because it's so simple. That's like this.

[00:36:38] It's the easiest, simplest. Like, that's what you do. You take it like that. And he was like, no, I'm going to read this. I'm going to exploit it. I'm going to bank on myself and find a tribal council. And all the credit to him that that completely works. I think other people in the future are going to get Kyle. I think we're going to say that person got Kyle. I think people are going to try to have their cake and eat it too. They're going to be like, I don't need to take out the biggest threat. Look at Kyle. I can sit with them at the end and undermine them. I'll make little moves behind the scenes. And they're going to lose. Because most of the time, that will not work.

[00:37:07] We just won't want Australian Survivor. We saw a very similar thing that was like, I use the shields. I don't want to spoil too much because you haven't seen it. But like, the person who came second was like, I use the shields. And then the jury were like, no, because you didn't drop the shield. You are against someone who will beat you because they are inherently more threatening because they are ahead of you. And for Kyle, that wasn't true. But other people, I think, will be like, I can sit next to him or someone or her and talk about how I'm bigger than them. And that is not going to work.

[00:37:36] I think a lot of people are going to fail because I think that it requires a very specific cast, a very specific culture, an incredible read of a very difficult jury that at least I find really, really tricky. So the interesting thing about this is we've been talking about the entire season. Should Kyle make a move? At eight, should he make a move? At seven, he had a shot at Joe. Should he have done it? At six, we didn't even talk about it in the podcast last week. And thank God for that. But like people were saying, should they three, two, one, Eva out of the game? You know, at that point where they can do that.

[00:38:05] At five, I was like, why aren't they taking out Joe? That was never the issue for Joe. I mean, for Kyle. For Joe as well. He never, because as well, they were like, well, then Joe and Eva should be voting for Mitch with Shaheen in case they're getting three, two, one. They could always mutually trust this mutual incentive with two people, Joe and Eva, who thought that they were going to win and would always want to go to the end with Kyle. It was such a mutually beneficial situation. There was no need to take the shot. There was no need to read the shot. However, the question becomes, what did Joe and Eva need to do?

[00:38:34] Ironically, they needed to take a shot at Kyle. How do you see this for Joe? How does Joe win this game? Is there a shot he needs to take? Or does he just need to speak to it better at Final Tribal Council for you? Yo, that's a difficult question. A very good one. What should Joe have done to win? I think it's not what Joe should have won. I think it's interesting because the move they made at six, taking out Shaheen, that plan

[00:38:58] with Kyle and Camilla again, like Kyle's words, like that conversation they had, that's what we saw, right? That's how it played out. They had like a very small winner and then they got it to work. And I think that they got Joe to vote out one of the people in his alliance by him misreading the situation because he was saying, I mean, he was contemplating. It's like, is Shaheen lying to me or are these other guys playing me? He was actually, it's like, like the thought was in his head, right?

[00:39:28] So he wasn't completely oblivious to the situation. He was actually, you know, visibly contemplating it. And we saw that great edit where he was like staring and then it like throws down, just as his focus, you know, that, that was a great scene in the travel council, by the way, like Joe trying to assess it live. I think, I think this isn't the why blank last podcast, but I think Joe lost at that moment because they took out Shaheen with, by duking him and then Camilla, two votes

[00:39:55] load later going and telling the situation and explaining to the people how they got Joe to vote out his close ally. I think that's the moment he lost. So I think for Joe to win in that situation, he said, I said, ah, I, I, I'm calling you bluff. This guy is stupid to me. I thought Kyle and then say like, you came after me first, bro. That's kind of like what Rob did in our season. It was like, you guys came after me first. So I had to take a shot. And that's a very good way to defend yourself in the final, final trial. So you took a stroke at me.

[00:40:25] I deflated it and I didn't do anything wrong. And that's why you should give me the win. I think that's the road for Joe to win the season. To not be fooled and to vote out Mitch. But the thing as well is that to like, to be fair, I mean, Mitch or Kyle. I mean, what was Kyle? He wasn't immune at that tribal. No, he wasn't. No. Joe was immune at it. No, Joe was immune at the tribal country. Joe was immune. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:50] So it's about at that point, that that point, though, they have shored up on a three with Mitch. Kyle and Camilla at that point are on a three. So it's either like going to the tie on Mitch or on Kyle. And it's a deadlock. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And they would have to deadlock it. And maybe if they, to be fair, they had, because if they play the idol and Joe's immune, they actually have thrown that up.

[00:41:18] So they, I mean, but then they would have to have a perfect read of like, Kyle's fully against us. And to be fair, they don't know that. And Kyle is, Kyle is, is, you know, getting one over them there. I do think as well, though, they don't want to sit with Shaheen either. And apologies to Shaheen, who I also was like, how delusional that he would thought he could beat Joe and Eva. In hindsight, great read that he wanted to do that. He's saying that in the show. Sorry, Shaheen. I think the show could have built Shaheen up a little more. I think the show could have made that look bigger. The way that Kyle does it really well in Final Tribal Council,

[00:41:47] the way that Kyle makes it brains, muscle, heart on Shaheen, Joe, Eva, respectively. I think we should, if that feels like more of the Oma move, it might seem a little bit clear. Instead, it was like so much soul to us as like the small undermining move still to get Joe. And that's, I guess what it was, but it just felt smaller for me. But I think Kyle spoke to it well. I think the show could have built it up a little bit more. But I do think as well, for Joe and Eva in this episode alone, I mean, they can't really sit with Shaheen anyway.

[00:42:16] So I don't really know that it matters hugely that Shaheen's gone, although it doesn't look good for a jury. I do think they were meaning to Kyle anyway, based on what Camilla said. So I think what if it's at the final five, Joe and Eva are going to have, if they know where they sit and they know that they're not as high up for the jury as they think they are, as I thought they were. Then maybe it's relying on that final five where you're going to have an idol. Joe's likely to win immunity, even if he doesn't. You're not being targeted. Like their two votes could do anything there.

[00:42:43] Like Mitch ends up voting for Kyle, but even if Mitch votes for Joe and Kyle and Camilla voted for Mitch, their two votes alone for Kyle put a 2-2-1 where they win. That looks flashy. And then for someone like Joe, if you're in a final four with then Camilla, Mitch, yeah, Joe and Eva, then Joe feels really good at fire. He can take out a Camilla who's a huge threat there or even put himself into fire to take out.

[00:43:10] I mean, now I'm fan fictioning, but like if they had known how they were perceived, there's very much a pathway there with a lot of room to move at five with Joe being so good at fire. Like they can sit with Mitch. By the way, I do think that Mitch had a lot more jury credential to talk about it than I thought. However, if they know that they need to like gun for Kyle and like make a move, eight's too early. Seven, Mary seems like a threat. Six, you don't want to get got, but Shaheen actually is a threat.

[00:43:39] And then to take out like a Kyle at five and a Camilla at four and sit with Mitch who hasn't done all those things. I think that looks pretty good. Yeah, I agree. I think we didn't see this and maybe the edit would have been different, but I think from the confessionals at least, Shaheen was very good at articulating himself and giving you like a very concise like read of the situation. I mean, being a debate professor, you would assume that.

[00:44:05] But I think he was, I think if he was at the end, I think he, because I didn't see, I mean, some people said like Eva and Joe didn't make like the best verbal case in their final tribal council. Obviously, final tribal council is very long. You are depleted. You are exhausted. I get all of that. But I think Shaheen would have been a, if it was like a 50-50 thing or was on a knife's edge, I think Shaheen would have been a very good oral narrator to explain the situation

[00:44:35] and sway people who were on the fence to, you know, put the cross behind his name. So I think that was a potential risk they could have faced. Sitting next to Shaheen. Mitch, we got kind of conflicting views on him because on one side, you hear people say if Mitch got to the end, they would win. But on the other side, we saw a lot of the confessionals kind of being like, if I could make a move, but I don't have the capital or people saying I should, but I shouldn't.

[00:45:03] And a lot of the times I felt like, I didn't know that he was kind of the brain of the organization. So I felt like a lot of the times he voted with the people, but if he didn't have a vote or he voted wrong, whatever, the boot order would have been exactly the same from what I've seen. So it doesn't felt like he was really that, like a dictator of the game or dictating direction of a game. And being likable at the end, I've always said at the end, people will vote for people

[00:45:33] they like more often than not about the gameplay, especially because you don't have perfect information. So being the entrepreneur that I am, I don't think we have enough information from the edit because like I said, we've got conflicting messages from what we saw about Mitch to be able to say for sure if it sat on the end, would it have been going his way or not? Yeah, I think with Mitch, it's very hard for me to tell. Firstly, far be it for me to try and assess this jury. I could not clearly work out.

[00:46:03] This isn't your season, Shannon. You lost out of the craft. You got the podcast wrong. It's just... Exactly. This was a perfect one to go to Europe for. I was like kind of half on vacation. I was like doing it next to AU. I'm like multitasking the season. And that's not why. I just got it wrong. I'm just stupid. What did you think of London, by the way? I just want to ask you, London. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. Quick, like what did you like about London? What did you didn't like? Well, I mean, New York's always been my second favorite place in the world. Number one, my bed with my cats. Number two, New York.

[00:46:33] Okay. And I'd only been to London once, but like in January it was raining. Now I was in London for four days in beautiful weather. And I was like, oh my God, London with beautiful weather, it's kind of just like New York without that weird smell. No offense to the New Yorkers, but it's true. It's just unavoidable. So I loved it. It has all the things I love. It has my mutual friend that we have, one of my closest friends who I went to visit. It has Kieran as well. It used to have you and so unfortunate that you weren't there. It has theater. It's like, it's always happening. It's so fun.

[00:47:02] And Harry Potter, so much Harry Potter stuff. We did the studio tour. That was my favorite days of my trip. And that's a very high bar. It's very good to play, but first child play. No, I've seen that in Melbourne, but I went to the studio tour. Did you do the studio tour ever? No, no, not. Oh, so good. You got a book early. That was so fun. Yeah. Anyway, wonderful city. I was upset that I didn't because some people messaged like there should be a, we should do a viewing party, but I wasn't there over an episode. And again, I'm only half watching this season.

[00:47:29] No, I have 3,000 words of notes on this episode, but I felt really upset that I couldn't see many of the wonderful London community. What was I saying about Survivor throughout Sujean through London? I don't know. I was being rude and interrupted you with something. Sujean, no, definitely not rude. I think I was saying, oh, we're talking about Mitch. Poor Mitch. Even in the conversation with Mitch, we've deviated off Mitch. Mitch probably had a chance with this jury because they were really high on Camilla.

[00:47:57] And I'm not comparing Camilla to Mitch, but if they're in the minds of like, they want the outlier, if they want the standard type outlier, then Mitch could have been that person. Mitch was also way more likable, I think, than we even saw. We did get like scenes of the fact that he was so funny. Everyone loved him. The way that they talk about him, not just like the way they talk about everyone. They did mostly talk about Joe as a threat, but like even the way that Jeff's like, you're going to be a favorite. And Mitch's face in that moment, knowing how much hate he's gotten since actually really broke my heart. But like the way that they seem to see Mitch was very different than the way we all seem

[00:48:27] to see Mitch. I think that Mitch has a shot. I just think that if Joe and Eva are making very singular moves against Mitch, at that point, it would almost speak for itself. And that's like the best way to go. Yeah. I know how Mitch can win this season. Tell me. He can win this season. Like everyone else. Yeah, exactly. He wins the season the same way that Sandra won Heroes vs. Willens. Yeah. She tries to vote out Russell, the guy who like everybody's against. She didn't end up getting it right. But she said, I tried. I didn't like these guys.

[00:48:56] I actually tried to do a resistance against them. And you don't like it. She should vote for me. I think that's his move. If he is visibly like, we're going against Joe and Eva. And then there's like collateral or whatever. And then he gets to the end. And he's like, guys, I really tried to get them out. Like I was with you. Like you guys told us from the beginning we should vote them out. I was part of a team that tried to do it. Yes, I got out one or two of it. And he spotted all of them. I couldn't get our whole team here. But at least I was part of a resistance. I think that's the way he wins the season.

[00:49:25] Same way that Sandra won. I think Joe like winning fire. Fan fiction, yeah. Fan fiction, yeah. But I think there's quite a direct path for me. But yeah, give me your fan fiction one. No, no, no. I'm just saying that's my fact. I think that's how we just do it. I don't think that this is fan fiction. I think in a world where Joe's won fire and they alone have taken out Carl at five on a 2-2-1 or whatever. Now it's starting to look like I think Joe's game. But I've been obviously way too much on that trade. However, in a world where Camilla doesn't win, I actually want to talk about this.

[00:49:55] If Camilla doesn't win the challenge at five, I think she's in a world of trouble. Because Joe and Eva wanted to take out Camilla. We heard that before the challenge. Just two votes on Camilla. Then say Camilla and Mitch, even if Camilla, okay, so say Camilla and Mitch are on Joe, then Carl needs to be on Joe. Does Carl make the decision? He's about to part with Camilla in the next round. I think he'd probably have to choose Joe over Camilla so he can go to the end with Joe and Eva, where I think sets up his final four.

[00:50:25] I think he would much prefer to have Camilla than Mitch in the final four from a loyalty perspective and from a fire perspective. Apparently Mitch would seem comfortable on fire. You really should know how good everyone is at fire. However, yeah, I think it worked out well. But I think if they are targeting Camilla, again, on the power of these two votes and Eva has the idol and all of that, she could also play the idol for Joe if she felt it was coming to that. Yeah, there's so many options where I think actually Camilla goes at the final five.

[00:50:52] Now at a final four, say Joe wins the challenge, puts Mitch through to fire against Kyle. Mitch wins. He might win that against Joe and Eva. Joe and Eva maybe haven't done enough and he is the Sandra there. If he wins the challenge, puts Joe in fire against Kyle and Joe wins fire. He's still against Joe and Eva. All of that looks honestly pretty winnable considering, you know, how much this jury seemed to be against Joe and Eva for Mitch. I just have to say that right now that like there was a pathway here. The pathway was not what we got.

[00:51:21] It was so actually emblematic of the season that they're like, Mitch, you're going home. And he's like, well, and I'm like, no, Mitch, like you have Joe, I think he's going to win. You have Kyle who is about to win in 45 minutes. And he's like, no, go to Joe and Eva and tell them Kyle's going to win. Go to Kyle and Camilla and be like, Joe's going to win. I'm going to vote for Joe. I'm going to vote for Kyle. Put some pressure on. Instead, he was like, what a lovely experience. I'm like, all of you are too nice. Way too nice. I just want to circle back to something you said that you put a fire rating about every player.

[00:51:49] Are you saying this to Survivor like we do Hunger Games where like before they test them on like everything and then they get like a stat list of all the players before and saying going into the season, this is a stat list of all the players. Now go and make your picture. You want it back. Yeah, we really need it because it's the only thing that's not like evident in the show. Like we know how well people might do in a challenge because we see them play challenges. We know how well they are. Socially, maybe the edit obscures it or like strategically we see it, but we don't know how good they are at fire. And that's such an important thing.

[00:52:15] Knowing that Kyle feels better about fire than Camilla means that this was a much better path for Kyle than Camilla. But we don't know how everyone feels about fire until the very end when they're like, unless they make a bonfire in the pre-merge, but like the very end when they're like, yeah, I feel good about fire or not. And I feel like we need to know about it. Yeah. So pre-season, we test the people like how long it takes them to make a fire. And you're like, can you see like how can they spell the word betrayal? Like have fun betrayal. And see if they can spell that.

[00:52:42] And then you can have them do like a wordle. And then like how many friends do you have on Instagram? That's your social game. And then you can see, okay, you know, now we've got all the stats out. So make the draft easier. Don't listen to all this stuff Mike Bloom is saying. Forget about Dave's pre-season assessment. Like none of that matters. Just get that stat book. You read through. It's like the monster guards you trade. Like, okay, my thing has more horsepower than yours. You know, print the card. That's the way you should. That's the CBS plan. That's what you do.

[00:53:12] No, I just need fire. That's a missing piece of the puzzle that Camilla will inevitably win. So yeah, so Camilla at five, I think actually really saved herself because I think at that point there's really a three, like there's nothing Camilla can even really do. Even at this five, like Joe, Eva and Kyle at that point are the three. And I actually think it was interesting because I tweeted just a tiny bit. Twitter is crazy. People are so aggressive. But I was like, I think Joe is Kyle's number one. He's prioritized Joe a lot. He's choosing Joe to go to the end. And everyone was like, you're an idiot. And I was like, I know he stopped.

[00:53:40] But anyway, my point is that what makes a number one? Like Kyle, even in exits is like, David was my number one until the swap. And then also he does defend Camilla a lot, but he also prioritizes Joe a lot. And then he does choose Joe. Yes. I hear you Twitter because he can beat him. Does it matter why? This is why he's his number one, because he can beat him. It makes him a great number one. So yeah, I really think that Camilla gets to this point in the final five and Mitch do where they're both on the back foot, especially with how much power Joe and Eva should have

[00:54:10] had at that final five. Yeah. And if it gets to that point where Camilla doesn't win the challenge, I don't know how she gets out of that final five. So it was great that she won the challenge, but yeah, I think this was a much worse pathway for her. It was interesting just talking about Camilla, who obviously people were really behind her in the jury. She said she feels like her and Cam played the exact same game. I really disagree. I feel like she got to be that like Sandra type who was on the outside and was like screaming to flip. Mostly at Kyle, who was not flipping.

[00:54:38] I felt like he had to manage more, but she got, she was like fighting against more. And I do think though her pathway was a lot worse than Kyle's because Kyle can rely on fire. Kyle has this active majority. Like she's in trouble at five if she doesn't win. And clearly she's in like big, big trouble at four in a way where like Kyle's pathway speaks for itself. And from the final eight, let's go to the end with Joe and Eva, get to fire, make a fire, sit with them. And like, it was just like tick, tick, tick across the board. And it seems like he just had it on lock.

[00:55:06] I think a fire, that was one of the things the public could vote on, right? If it should be in the game or not. Yes. Yeah. I, I, I, I know why. It just shows. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because fire here is just one of the many reasons that this was such an easy path. I think like the fact that Kyle's like, I just need to get to four and then I can rely on fire. I mean, it's like the game is over from like final eight at worst, you know, like it's just done. Yeah.

[00:55:36] Look, I'm not, I'm not necessarily profile or not, but I mean, I'm paraphrasing now, but I think when they brought it in, Jeff said like a lot of like a couple of seasons where it's just like the physicality and the survivalness of the game doesn't count that much anymore because you just put out all these big players with like a social click towards the end game. So they kind of want to put something in that rewards that I can provide and I can be outdoorsy and I can live in a jungle factor. Like again, I'm paraphrasing now, but I wonder if it's like another way.

[00:56:06] I'm going to lose that type of behavior because yeah, it does kind of make this, like you say, it becomes arbitrary, but it does kind of spoil the end game a bit compared to like how Australian or Survivors or Africa plays out in the end game. It's a bit more like I have to really strategize and get the right people to make right moves because every single person's vote is critical at that point in the game.

[00:56:33] Like otherwise you go to rocks or whatever, whatever. Yeah. You don't have to fall, but anyway. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, during Australian Survivor, like getting down to a final two made the end game very complicated in this way that this was the opposite. So, okay. A lot of macro questions. So how do we view Kyle? Like where would you broadly rank Kyle as his win? If you were like, yeah. Yeah. Because it's a tricky one.

[00:57:03] No, no. It's not for me. I think Kyle's win is very unique. So I'd rank it like in the top 50 percentile. Okay. Some of the newer players, new seasons people, I wouldn't necessarily. But I think Kyle's game, I would. Because he did something that nobody else has been able to do. I mean, very rarely you get people like these secret alliances. And now even to trust a person and then just hearing him say in the X-Face how little they

[00:57:32] actually spoke, it's remarkable. I mean, if you're there and somebody just speaks to you every second day and they give you like a five minute rundown and then we go back and you have to be like trust that and believe it and work on that information, I think it's insane. I'll bring you back to my macro question at the end. Why can I ask you now?

[00:57:53] I think Survivor, I know this is a bit beating a dead horse, but like the new season format has been so like copy, paste, change the font and then print it out. But it's actually like, I don't want to get too negative, but I'm like so over like the mundane. I like that. Like how all the last 10 seasons have just blurred into one. Like it's so difficult for me to like discern which one was which.

[00:58:21] But I think, I don't know why they don't do themes because they say like you get to like 17 out of 20, you get three people and shoo on them into other David or Goliath or whatever. But, but here's my thing. Survivor needs a season and there's spoken about a lot. Survivor duos. So very similar to like you have like bloodless water, like two people on each tribe and they kind of like have this connecting wire that connects them. Bring back, bring in a season survivor duos. Get the 10 best duos. Bring Sandra and Tony.

[00:58:51] Bring Wendell and Dominic. Bring Maria and Charlie. Well, that feels unfair. Bring in Kamala and Kyle. Bring these people who are like super good duos, like who really operate well. And then you like really want to spice it up. Say we're splitting the prize pool. Like one of the duos gets to be in, like each get 500,000, something like that. Oh, wow. That's a different game though. Just like that would be such a fun season because it's like something like, like bloodless

[00:59:21] water, but not really because it's like people who have. Yeah. Solid layer. Yeah. I mean, you have to get one of the duos to be in. That's like all it takes. I'm just. You'd hate to be Charlie teamed up with Maria and you'd hate to be Maria who got a drive by on national television calling her an old woman. See, they had 46 on the brain. They were like doing the opposite. Yeah. I'm just saying there's like, there's like a macro theme here of like, I think it'll be a fun season. I mean, and if it fails, it fails, but I mean, it's not going to be worse than seeing the

[00:59:51] same thing over and over and over for nine seasons in a row. There is a middle ground though of like not doing like a completely different format and just like having any theme without the new era format. And you said, you don't want to be negative. I'm going to be negative when we rank these seasons because I do think this was the worst new era season. I'll be definitely kinder to Kyle on Kyle's win. Very, very hard win to rank and assess because it is so unique. Again, if he's reading correctly and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he got this during a way that I simply did not.

[01:00:19] If he's reading that early, no notes, you know, he does kind of everything perfectly. And the interesting thing about it as well is for me, the moves and like the little, the moves are less important in the season for me than like the big macro structure because the moves to be fair, the Thomas move that he got over Joe on Shaheen tick, tick, tick. That was two months ago for us more. That was, you know, a couple of weeks ago for them. So that one is fair.

[01:00:47] And I also think a lot of people are like, oh, Kyle's not a good winner because he needed an idle pre-merge. He was swap screwed and that move was incredible. I don't know what anyone is talking about with that, but the Thomas move like tick, tick, tick. Yeah. The David move. I kind of feel like Joe and David had their own issues, but sure. And the Shaheen move, the fact that he was using it to undermine Joe again, like Joe was still going to the end with Kyle, but using it to undermine Joe, I think is a big move.

[01:01:13] But the bigger thing for me now is that the credit I was giving to Joe was that while even vulnerable, while having not won immunity, he wasn't getting targeted. And I was like, this is more impressive than any moves in this like very unanimous season where I think three people were left out of a vote in the entire post-merge, which we can talk about. But if that's not true and Joe was just being carried through, not because he was like a threat who was manipulating people, but more because he was more of a goat, then actually

[01:01:40] it's more impressive that Kyle, people weren't looking at Kyle, like Kyle's the one who's going to win. He's got good shields, but also great win potential and a great pass. So now like that gap becomes the thing over Joe where he's not being targeted. He has the relationship so no one can see that he's going to win. Now that's like very impressive for Kyle. So Kyle has a lot of ticks. The thing that I will take away from him and why I would like, I have like a D high. I feel like D was going through more jam jam and Tika, what they were going through. Marianne.

[01:02:07] I feel like Marianne, like maybe it's kind of around Marianne's, but I probably have Marianne. I love Marianne's win. And then maybe like Kyle and Rachel is because I just think it was quite an easy path. Like he did it so well, no notes. And who am I to say it was easy when I didn't know what was going on and I'm not on the show, but like as paths go again, he just needed to shore up for in a group that was like so mutually incentivized to do it. Like he kind of got gifted.

[01:02:34] Well, he fought for, he worked for those relationships, but like Joe and Eva who thought they could win. That was pretty easy. Like compared to what Tika had to do that, there was, there was a lot of adversity. So I think just on like the cast and the culture and the pathway, I just don't know that. I think I take away from it because I think it was kind of tough, but I put him around like, I mean, it was kind of easy, which makes it tough. But yeah, like I put him around Rachel, which is so funny because Rachel is like an opposite win who has these like high highs, big losses. That is not Kyle's win.

[01:03:03] Kyle's win is all like moving at a really glacial pace through this like ongoing tension of like, is he going to look like the biggest idiot alive? Or am I going to, you know, is he going to look like, oh my God, you thought you could be Joe, you idiot. And then he's just like anyone who's misread a jury and just looks so silly. We literally just saw an AU versus no, you had it right the whole time. Your reads were immaculate, which I love as a survivor player. And you like, you know, you, you played the hand you were given. I just think the hand was a little easy. It was the latter.

[01:03:32] But that was like kind of the only central tension I feel of the season. So I'm like bumping him down a little. Is that unfair? Are you enraged as a survivor player that I'm saying that as someone I'm like, this is a little easy for me. I say for my couch as I like eat my popcorn. No, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's, I mean, it's. Again, similar to our season where people say like the season sucked, but the winner was good. You know, it's, it's very kind of, again, on the same lane.

[01:03:57] Um, um, I think, I think where, I think the Kumbayana's that you were mentioning, I think had, had Cy and Thomas and potentially somebody, I mean, they've voted out, uh, uh, Charity saying she was a bit of a schemer. They don't trust her. There's like a lot more under the surface, you know, had those three got into the merge and do the end game instead of,

[01:04:24] and you just use random people, Mitch, David, and Cedric, whatever. Um, I think the game would have been a lot more chaotic, would have been a lot more scheming, a lot more, um, you know, strategic gameplay. Um, not that forming a good social structure and getting to the end isn't, isn't a method. I just think like from a production, you get these people, you don't know who's going to be the first, your favorite, favorite people can be the first five out. You know,

[01:04:52] with people who think you think will provide the best entertainment. So I think we were kind of robbed of that this season with just all the Kumbaya guys getting to be in. And that's just lack of a draw. You have no control of that as a, as a production team. Um, but again, I don't, I'm not, again, I'm not advocating for either one of these scores. I'm just saying, cause I've been there. I've seen it play out. If you, if you see, if there's too much advantages, people will be complaining. Oh, it's just, it's just a rock of a draw. It's a short game format and there's too many advantages.

[01:05:22] Uh, anybody can win the game now. And like last season, I think it was last season where nobody played the idol. And then like four people home and home with idols in the pocket for five. No, it was 46. Yeah. 46. Yeah. Like four or five people went going home with idols in the pocket. But you're like, well, again, what should we do as production when we give these guys the rules and nobody uses it? That was amazing TV. I love them. That was phenomenal. That was one of the best runs I think in the whole new era. Yeah.

[01:05:51] I mean, that's the one that I feel like, anyway, that's not the beginning of there. Um, but, and then this season. So I just think. And it's difficult because. Something in production room. And, you know, there's a budget constraints. All the things that happen. Like where's the line between. From a designing the season perspective, how much randomness and chaos should they put in versus how much you want good players to get to the end. And then within that, in terms of casting people,

[01:06:18] how much do you cast chaotic people who sometimes can be like salty or negative or, you know, you know, get very personal in the way they play the game versus. Do we want just people that play a positive game, positive relationship, share their stories and build trust around. I mean, these are like talking about your parents and the stuff that went through and, and, and immigration and how that affects you and being incarcerated. I mean,

[01:06:46] like very few people have those kind of like bizarre backstories. Everybody has a story. As Steven says, everybody has a story and everybody's here of their own story. I get that. But those are like really deep things to share. Um, and then obviously people forming a bond around these like deeply shared experiences because that's what Survivor does. Um, and then if it's like from an entertainment perspective, plays out this way, I don't know. It's difficult to say what, what they should do to get the season to be different. Um,

[01:07:17] yeah, I can, I can, I can think of something. Um, I'll, I'll be, I'll be negative now. I mean, to be positive first, I do think a lot of the stories were good. I, I, I think that the cast was a little lukewarm because they all seem a little too lovely for the most part. Maybe that's also part of like the boot order that we got of just like such lovely people kind of getting to the end. Not that other people aren't lovely, but it really felt like a really lovely cast. Um, so, but I do think that the stories we got were amazing.

[01:07:41] I was like in tears today thinking about Joe and how he said that he was so grateful in the after show that Eva, um, gave him the opportunity to show the world who he really was. And I was like, it's amazing because it's not just showing the world. It's also showing himself where he feels he failed as a protector of his sister and now has made his game about protecting Eva. And people will yell at that. And he said his best move to Dalton Ross was, you know, protecting Eva and people didn't like that or working with Eva. Um, if you think about the fact that he feels he failed at protecting his sister,

[01:08:11] who passed away from domestic violence, was killed in domestic violence and now has made protection of Eva and done so well in it, you know, being there for her, he's like main point of the season. Like what a beautiful thing. Like what a beautiful story note. And what an like incredible like human thing. I think the stories have been great. And I honestly, I have enjoyed a lot of my time with these characters and I think I'm trying to, and I'm, I am enjoying it. I think most of the issues with production, like production had their hand so far into this season that by the time they kind of started playing,

[01:08:41] it was like final 10, like through the very, very pretty finicky pre-merge into Murgatory, the split tribal where people like, like even Mitch said in his ex interview, he was like, if I make a move with the vote block, I mean the vote block, I don't think could have worked at the split tribal. Cause then it like alerts either playing her idol, but like, even if they try and make a move, he said, I'm not coming back to majority. What happens? Yes. That's the split tribal. It blocks up the whole pre-merge. I mean, sorry, the pre-merge is very blocked up. Then it blocks up the whole early merge.

[01:09:10] By the time they had like a day to like, think about a freaking full vote. It was the final 10. And the game was, there wasn't a majority that pretty much maintained through to the end. I think that production in the new era in general is too extreme. And this season, like sometimes like the cars get around it. I think 42 is a great example of that. We're like productions all up in it, but 42 just happened to get around it and like do or die doesn't hit it. Like every single thing, single thing this time, unfortunately the season kept falling to production. And it's unfortunate when the best thing that can happen for production is the season circumvents it.

[01:09:39] And that did not happen here. This is what we got, by the way, I was like looking at the math of this. It's actually crazy. The pre-merge, your mileage may vary on the pre-merge, but the pre-merge was these like finicky plurality votes, pretty much every vote except the first one is technically plurality. Even the second vote, which isn't was meant to be a plurality vote and say, just like did her own thing. So that's crazy, but you might not enjoy that because it's so production based. It's so produced. It broke my brain. Certainly it was like interesting to try work out the rules, but it was like,

[01:10:08] is anyone enjoying this? Like it genuinely gave me a headache. And by the by, I have now caught up with my brother. I'm back on the train of, we don't need to make it because in the pre-merge, because it screwed me up so badly. I was saying, maybe we go back to the rules where like the targets don't revote. No, everyone can revote. Everyone goes to the voting booth. I think that actually does solve it. And that was always what I thought, but it broke my brain. That's the pre-merge. Then we get to a post-merge. That's the opposite. It's so produced, especially at the beginning. And I think with the cast,

[01:10:36] but like who will lean into it that now no one has any room to move. Now it was so unanimous that three people in the entire post-merge weren't in on the votes. That's how unanimous it was. I think Mitch at the charity vote and then the, and then star and Mary at the day vote. And that's it. Other than splits, everyone's in on every vote. It's like the opposite and neither are good. You know what? So I think that, and I think a lot of that is on production and that's why this was the worst New Year season for me. I feel like 43 has like the Jesse Cody moment.

[01:11:06] I think Tika were doing more interesting things here. And those are like my least two favorite seasons other than this. Like, I think this was by far the worst. It was, it was, it was a drag and I say that as someone who was like binging it after a Euro trip, the best possible way to view it. And even then I really think like even the best things about it, like an interesting pre-merge. I love the, the Kyle Camilla boat on Thomas, all of that. But even then so much of it was like, what are the rules? What do I believe? And like, is that even fun? And that was like the highest of bars. I feel. I agree. Can I,

[01:11:36] can I do a short monologue? Please. Not to be negative, just to make a point. Okay. Also the theme of the podcast, by the way, survivor global. Can I do a short monologue? Love it. You have the floor. Okay. Thank you. I am now. Yes. I'm not going to stop my monologue. I'll quit. I'll play our podcast. Here we go. Okay. So one thing that Jeff is constantly saying in like both in the season and on his podcast and the X-Rex and whatever stuff we do is like, it's survival.

[01:12:05] Always expect the unexpected. Okay. Okay. Now we've had eight seasons and there are some, there are some deviations, but I'm going to say something and you can, in your mind, just think what I'm going to say next and tell me how many of the things I said, I was going to say you like got up. Okay. The season starts with three tribes of six every single time. Then they do a first challenge. And after that first challenge, the winners, I get a flint. And then the second two tribes have to do something else to get it to

[01:12:35] when they're flint back. Then we go into a sweat versus savvy challenge where people get split out from the tribe and they go on their own way. And then they do this thing. And then one time it comes back with flint, the other one does. Okay. Now one tribe is on the back foot. Then from there, we are going to do a challenge and then we're going to do a journey. And all the day before three people are going to go on a journey. They're going to take them out of a trap. We're going to put them back in. We're going to have three votes and we're going to be at 15. When we're at 15,

[01:13:04] we're going to split into three tribes of five. Then we've got 15 people left. And that we're going to do one more journey again from a challenge. We then go from those 15 tribes. We vote them down to either 13 or 12. Then we go into something which is called pretty merge, but not the merge. You want it to earn it. I don't know what you call it. Then you split into two tribes of six or two teams of six. You do that challenge. You end with one team,

[01:13:33] half of them being immune or not half of them being immune. You go to a tribal council, you vote out somebody that person may or may not make the jury. Then you say, now we have made the merge. And from there, you had now 12 people. You do a split them into two tribes of six. And then you say, you've got two tribes. It's going to be two different teams. You're going to have a reward where there's an endurance challenge. The team who wins it, they will go first or they will go second. So they've got information. You've got your two tribes of six and six.

[01:14:03] Then you go into 10. And from there, it's just two tribals. Then there's a rice negotiation. Then there's going to be a whole, Jeff's going to be like, are we going to have rice or no? Then you're going to get down five or six is the last time. You can play an idle. It's fire making. Then you get into the final three. Now that has been with a couple of small detours, pretty much the format for eight seasons in a row. And I forgot to say that in the beginning,

[01:14:31] every single child idle is a beware advantage where you have to do some gimmicky goose chase, do this, do that, and then come back. And then either lose your vote or not. Now, as a player, I'm just going to go back, always expect the unexpected. What is unexpected about those nine seasons being exactly the same format? Yeah. Oh, and cast super fans who can, who know all this, obviously, who've done the research and who know what rocks are.

[01:14:59] I have to have done some of the puzzles, re bringing some of the puzzles with things. I know how to do this. Yeah. Reuse the puzzle. Oh, a hundred percent. It's been a bit of a monologue, but it was a purposeful monologue. We just explained the, are we now still expecting the unexpected from players? I don't think so. Yeah. Eight seasons in a row. Yeah. The, the, I've always said the Murgatory into the split tribal blocks up both of those votes. So split tribal blocking up both of those votes. They know what's going into a split tribal.

[01:15:29] We have to be so conservative to have mass numbers and then they have to have mass numbers coming back and they're in these split tribes. And that happens every time. And it's like, I think underratedly constricting also. And Teresa spoke about this when we spoke earlier in the season, splitting them up on this massively long challenge. And then one goes to reward and one goes for journey and they're all split up and they have an hour to talk about it. I said, I said this, I tweeted this when I was away, actually in the David vote, it was like the first off day they'd had in ages. And they actually did something.

[01:15:59] I'm like, give them a second to do it. The one caveat in your monologue that I would say is they don't always swap, but even that is telegraph because if you are watching, you can pick up the signs. They'll swap. If like a disaster tribe is losing too many members and they don't want to go down to that level. When Vula was losing, that triggered the swap that happened as well on 45. So if no other tribe has lost members, they will start, yeah, shaking it up and all, all has lost members through like Medivac or whatever.

[01:16:28] So even that is terrible. And this is the thing is that. Yeah. The new, the new era is not a good format to do for one season, but they've done it for eight. It's much, much longer than any other format stretch they've ever had. And it's so, so bad. And even if it was good, I don't know that I'd be like, do this, do something eight times. What will probably be nine, 10, God forbid, however many in a row. what you want to do as a production team. And again, I mean, you want to have,

[01:16:56] you want a person to test them like on different things. You want like physical challenges, you want mental challenges, you want endurance, you want stamina, you want to play a couple of games, you want to do some fun things like have, you want to, you want to mix it up. And to say, and obviously survivors, there's obviously, everybody knows that there's a bit of luck involved to get, whatever. But this whole thing about putting people in tribes of six is to say, there's nowhere to hide, which I, I like, I agree. Like having some, like times where they're saying,

[01:17:24] there's nowhere to hide is a good strategy. And from a production perspective, right? But if you have a person starting a tribe of six, vote, then vote from a tribe of five. Then before you bring the big merge, you vote in a block of five. Again, you've tested the nowhere to hide ability four times where if you, yeah, if you want to, if you want to start with two tribes of 10, okay, then you've got like big tribes, lots of things happening. And then yet at 12, then you say,

[01:17:53] we're now going to do a double vote where you have like a small, small number of people to work with. Perfect. Or start with three times of six, nowhere to hide those initial things. And then you get to the merge of 13 or 12, have normal votes. Then you operate within a big group, right? Again, then you've kind of test. Can you vote in a big group and vote in a small group? But now you're just testing. Can I vote in a small group, every single tribal, the whole game through, which I don't feel like that doesn't,

[01:18:22] doesn't, because I'm not saying these people who won, didn't, wouldn't have won. One of the people got voted out, wouldn't have gotten out. But now, but when we had like our, when we played like the first tribals, we were small seven, right? And then we swapped into like two bigger tribes of, of, of nine. It was big. Okay. And then what our merge vote, there was 13 people. You know, how chaotic it is to think what 30 people think. So I felt like as a person, I had to play in a small, in a medium tribe,

[01:18:53] in a big tribe, and in a small tribe, and in a big merge, and in a small merge. So there was variation on what you should do in every kind of tribal where now, and then you just reaffirm it. You give the person, put them in the position where they sometimes have to lose their vote. They can't not play or whatever. Then you say, well, there's five people. Now one of them hasn't got a vote. I mean, that's just, fucks up the whole plan. They would have wanted to do anyway. So, yeah, I was, but I don't, I'm saying this because I'm negative. I'm saying there's solutions.

[01:19:22] I'm not, I feel like if you want to complain, you should be able to say I'm complaining, but here's my recommendation to make the situation better. Um, I think there's a lot of ways to like swipe, swipe tweaks where you can just not have, like it feel like the same season. I mean, I said this at the time, I think the best advantage or mechanism in this new season, was the bird, bird cage idol. Such a great thing. You put something in the middle.

[01:19:52] Everybody knows there's something in it. And then at some point in time, everybody's phones goes off. Hello. Something happened. Uh, there's a, there's a, one person in the group is not who they say they're of. There's an alien in the room. Try to figure out. You go, what? You know, at some point in time, you walk past this idol, this cage and be like, Oh my goodness. The cage is empty. And I like, we've done it guys. We've done it. That's, that was so interesting and so fun. Um, such unique. Like mechanism.

[01:20:20] Where it was totally different than the beware advantage. Totally different to anything we've seen. Love it. Why don't you just do more unique things? Um, like that. Yeah. Awesome. More points for 44 over 48. Although that also had an infuriating pretty much. I think as well, it's not even just like, Oh, you all have to do a small tribe. And I all have to do a small tribe again. One, six people are about to have the most difficult survivor experience truly of anyone. Sure. And for the one of them or the two of them that lose their vote.

[01:20:51] It's very hard. Okay. Justin had a very difficult, the new era. I expect unexpected for Justin.

[01:21:24] 100%. The season is great. So Jeff isn't looking to change it up, but there are such clearly production driven problems that, and my brother was catching it while the season when I was away and I was getting his rants every episode. He's very down on the season and he's going to love your rant. Cause I think he explicitly said the one good twist in the new era was the birdcage idol. So I think you're on a similar page, but he was like, he got down to like the Chrissy vote ish. And he was like,

[01:21:49] every single vote so far has been so massively impacted by production. And at the point where they had some space and some days and some like, time to actually vote. It was the final eight and that was going to be decided by fire. And then the structure spoke for itself. So it's a very constricted season. All of the worst parts of the new era played out and, and, and happened like it did not get around any of that. And I think we see that at its worst. And Jeff loved the season and that's where we're at with it.

[01:22:18] So it's very unfortunate because I think it's very, very clear. I do think that the cast was like pretty chill again, like not necessarily like the best. And I do think the new era is mostly saved by some fun editing, some great casting. That's its biggest thing. And this cast is still fun, but like it needs such a great gasp because the format is so, so flawed. I will say the fact that this is what I'm most angry about saves this from being as bad as other seasons for me. Like when I'm angry at stuff at 34 and 39, like that's real world stuff.

[01:22:46] I'd rather be angry at production for like the bad decisions in my view. I'm compared to like the real worst, even in your season, there's some like really ugly stuff and that's real. This season is not ugly. If anything, this season again is the opposite of that way. Like even David was just kind of like a pretty fun heel, you know, like he was a villain and he got vanquished and like, it wasn't dark. Also best part of the entire finale, the knock, knock joke, but not the knock, knock joke. Not that it was the fact that he said knock, knock and they didn't know how to respond.

[01:23:15] They so awkwardly had to be like, uh, who's there. Like that response. That was my favorite part of the entire finale. So like even David, like it was all like pretty light, I think. And that like, it's not as bad as like the worst of the worst for me, like Thailand or yeah. Even like the slogs of redemption Island, which I don't really remember. This was a slog too. I still think those are all worst seasons for me, but like this was not a good season of the show. I think that that's a fair assessment, right? Yeah,

[01:23:45] it is the funny. I agree. The funniest season for me was when, um, David, was it like David and Kyle? He was like, yeah, man, I live in, I live in a trailer inside of my, part of my house, that house. Like, Oh, that's so cool. And he's like, yeah, that's so cool. I was like, no, bro, it's not sick. It's actually bad. Oh, oh, sorry. I'm so sorry about that. Kyle's positivity shines through. What are like, what is, what a show of that? I want to ask the last question about the season.

[01:24:15] I have many questions. We'll talk. Yeah, before we, I'll ask one for you. You've got questions. From, if you have to choose a physical person, a strategic person, and a social player from this season, you would like to see again. Well, we might get it. We might get them all immediately. What? no, I just, I saw you. I was high up on us. Um, what, to come back? Yeah, to see again. One physical player to see again, one social player to see again,

[01:24:44] one strategic player to see again. We might get all of those things. What, Kyle social, Camilla strategic, Joe physical, if the rumors are true. No, um, yeah, I did that. I'd love, some of these like pre-merges. I loved Thomas. Okay. I chose my, it was my winner pick over Kyle. Like, I'd love to kind of see a second chance, like a pre-merge post-merge. They could, they could do almost like pre-merge post pre-jury, post-jury, um, theme of just the new era.

[01:25:13] Like the casting is so good that they could literally do. I've, I used to have, you're not copying out an answer. I'm going to keep my answer. My question again, but I've always said that would be like a really good, uh, three tribe format. Like pre-jury tribe of just a new era right now. First boots, uh, pre-merge post-merge. I mean, that's cool. I had pretty much post-merge in survivors of Africa. Like you're not coming up. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm just saying like for a real kind of like three, three, three, you know, that's too much. No,

[01:25:43] that's too much. Like from the whole, whole survivor. Like just, I don't know. Yeah. You can't get 10 people to do 10 first boots. It's going to be boring. I mean, it could be, or if you really want to do that, just a person that's first boot, first people that got booted from the first time they went to tribal. That's also something else. Because you might, you might get, like you say, you might do truth to tribe wins, And then you go to tribal, like tribal, like 13 people left in the game. You can throw it out. So yeah.

[01:26:12] They have first tribal boots versus pre-merge versus post-merge. Yeah. Firstly, there's a good season. Yeah. I say you couldn't do first tribal boots for the new era. Give me Zach, give me Stephanie, give me Maddie. Like there's so many, the casting in the new era. Like we, thank you players, like, and thank you casting department for keeping this afloat because we see that there's issues. But yeah, I mean, coming back to this season, I mean, I think. I need three names. I need three names. A physical, a social, and a strategic. Why am I being given?

[01:26:42] Like it's final tribal council. I'm having to be like out with out play out last. I think, you know, I mean, Carl won, which is, I think Camilla strategic. Well, Camilla and say are both strategic. I don't want the physical players. Thomas strategic. Stephanie. He was on my draft team. Justin. Give him a second chance. Bring back the whole pre jury. They deserved better. My draft team. Kevin. He hurt himself early. It wasn't fair. Bianca seemed good. I just want the, then they're all strategic.

[01:27:12] They got rid of all of the Slytherins in the pre, in the, pre jury. And that's why the season began. We got all Gryffindor and it was a Gryffindor last season. Yeah. I mean, Joe, Camilla, Kyle, if that's what we're getting, I'm happy to, to break it up as such. And make it that. Yeah. What about you? Nah, it's just good for me to, it's your question. I know it's my question. I didn't expect to hear, to hear it back. What?

[01:27:43] I didn't expect you to be like, okay, you know, like you, yeah. Yeah. It's like a first date. What do you do for a living? Oh, and what do you do? Oh, I said, I didn't think of that. I didn't mean to yourself first date. No, I'm just saying like, I would, I would, I'm just thinking, I think Camilla would be good. Um, I do agree. Like with Justin, I felt like he was a, yeah, he would like at the, he had the pizza shirt,

[01:28:13] right? Was it, was it him? Was it? Yeah, it was him. I'm starting to realize it was like, not just because they were my draft team. This was a bit of a tragic boot order. I've really, I'm really coming. Like, not that, not that I don't like the people at the end. Love. Oh, star. I want star back a lot. I don't know what. I agree. I, I, I, I, I, that's one of the things like, because I don't know if it's like some online discourse that I missed, but I have like a massive question mark about star because I felt like every single time she spoke, it was like really funny. It was like really refreshing.

[01:28:43] She was such a unique personality, but somehow we saw so little of her where you think somebody like. Sorry, who's also a big personality. Also a lot of bold claims, like how she doesn't like this business. We saw like so much of her, which was again, like old statements. Well, I don't know why we saw not as much of star as we could have. Yeah, I agree. I felt like it's almost like she got a little bit of a purple edit, except for the time she did speak. It was like super captivating. We thought like, I don't understand why. So there was,

[01:29:13] I don't know if something happened or there was like something like behind the scenes that they're not telling us or the editors had like, I was very weird for me that I didn't see more of her. Well, she just kind of gets like pegonged through this like mass group. So maybe they just think it was, it wasn't story relevant. I mean, they clearly got that. She was entertaining. Like they gave her a rap segment. Like they knew that she was good because I'm sure they'd heard her speak. It was interesting. I think maybe her gameplay was really chaotic because Mitch and Camilla come out really blaming the final eight on her, that she would go back to Joe and Eva. She thought she was with Joe and Eva. And like,

[01:29:43] you don't want someone going back to Joe and Eva who at that point have, you know, so, you know, idols and like so many advantages and stuff. Like you don't want that. Although I do think like, Mitch, what do you have to lose? Like you have, you have to trust in something. And the thing is, she's on Twitter disagreeing with that as well. But like, I will say about star, they're saying that, yeah, that she really thought she was with Joe and Eva. I'm like, that's so impressive from Joe and Eva to be fair, but. That's fine. It was just if her gameplay was chaotic. If she was a, if she was a flip flopper, then keep her personality,

[01:30:12] keep those moments and then show her flipping once or twice. What, what, what, what that is going to do to give us, let us understand why they didn't respect her game or didn't trust her being reliance, but we could have seen more of her because I felt like every single time she spoke, it was so hilarious. It was so captivating. I don't, I don't know why we didn't see more of it. I mean, they villainized Thomas as being like this. Okay. He's kind of a big sneak, sneak. And then they're like, vote him out. And then villainize sigh being like, yeah, you know,

[01:30:40] you're rooting for a downfall and they vote out, vote out. Um, so why, why don't do the same site with, with star? I don't know. I didn't get it. Well, yeah, I mean, I, and the thing is that we don't see, cause we're really blaming Mitch at the final eight. And again, this is like completely not canon because star is still fighting with them on Twitter that she was not the reason final eight. It happened. I'm sure. And again, I'm sure all their perspectives are valid to them. We have seen fragile truth is where a lot of the deep guys I've done. Everyone has their own perspective. Um, that's true.

[01:31:10] That's conflicting here. Um, that happens a lot of times. Like in our season, like in the seat, a vote where she got, like some of the people got blindsided. Like after that, there were like eight people in vote and all eight claimed it was their move. Exactly. Sometimes it's just like you say, all eight perspectives are valid. That's just the way like naturally assembled. That's also fine. It doesn't have to be one person's mastermind. Yeah. Two people can also have a mastermind plan and on the same thing. Not mutually exclusive.

[01:31:39] Like many things can be true at once. Like maybe star, you know, did go back and tell them some stuff, but still was going to work with them. And they should have relied on that because they had like no other option. But what is interesting about it is if that's true. And if people had like, again, the jury who cement the truth, if they're seeing star as the reason that that went badly and not, as we saw it, then like Mitch has a better shot at the final three than we necessarily thought if he didn't like actively screw that up in the eyes of the jury. So it is interesting. I don't think star was edited. Well, did you have an answer to your own question? I have questions that I need you to answer. Can you answer your,

[01:32:09] who you want back? Um, okay. Okay. Let me just, uh, go back. Okay. I definitely want to see Camilla back. I mean, I think she was like the most, uh, like the coolest super sneaky person I've ever seen play. Um, so I'll put her as a social player. I would, I would venture. Um, I think kind of, I feel like she's pure strategy. Like this binary seems pointless, but like, she was really, I felt like, well,

[01:32:39] I mean, she said this wasn't like her social season because she was like the one Slytherin that they left remaining. And she was like, I'm in this Gryffindor nightmare and I'm just hating my life. And that was like her post-murge journey. Okay. So we're saying Camilla is a strategic player. Okay. Yeah. Then I'll just say, I think Shorin was good as well. I think he's the way he, he's confessionals, the way he was able to like, like narrate the story, I think was really good. So let's, I'll put him in. I'll say he was a big guy. So he's a physical player.

[01:33:10] Um, then we need a social player. Um, Joe, I think some, I think, yeah, but I mean, I've seen the story of the list of people. Yeah. We've seen the story. Exactly. I think somebody like Thomas, not necessarily. I mean, he was, Thomas has a bit of like that, that, that, like what Kuivis brought to our season with kind of sassy. Like I'm here to play, but I'm also funny, but I'm also being like,

[01:33:40] I can be a bit condescending if I think I know when you don't know. And I think those people make like really great, like people play with deep into the season. Um, and if they can open up, um, they also have some, I'll say, I'll say those two. I'll say Camilla, Shohin and Thomas. Yeah. I mean, Thomas was too, too interesting and charismatic. He took my winner pick away from being Kyle, but it's fine. I'll get over it. Um, okay. My question is around final travel council,

[01:34:09] which we have not spoken about as we recap this finale. What stood out to you? Yeah. What, what, what, how did you, who do you think, one final travel council who do you think did well or poorly? Or like, how did you see final travel council? No, I think, I think Kyle did the best. Um, I felt like, I know Joe said like, I'm not going to bash this person or whatever. And I respect that you can win by not being negative, but I felt like they could have been things that he owned up more. Um, I think in our season, if I look back,

[01:34:36] like Rob was really good at articulating what he did because in our season, from the jury's perspective, like Rob and Nicole, it was like a blur of who did what. From our vantage point. Like it, we didn't see all the confessionals. Watching it back, like it was clear, like Rob did like a lot of brain work and he called it social. He got their hands bloody with social things, but I felt like there was a blur on who's who in our season between Rob and Nicole. And I think this season is potentially the same with Joe and Eva.

[01:35:04] Like where does one stop and where did the other ones, you know, game begin? And I felt Rob did a very good job of kind of claiming some of the moves, um, um, better than Nicole potentially did. She was actually doing the same thing. He's been like, Oh, I'm not going to be bad. I'm going to be like, whatever, whatever. And he was like, no, this is what I did. Um, so I think he could have been a bit more like, I mean, again, maybe he did and we didn't see the edit, but the bit we saw was he's like, I'm not going to say anything bad about Eva or whatever. Um, you can,

[01:35:31] you can defend a move without insulting the person next to you. It's, it's, it's perfectly possible. Um, so yeah. And then I, I felt like, yeah, Carl and Camilla's reveal was just, I was just a bit. I mean, they couldn't beat it. And then potentially, um, I think Camilla, you know, like I say, telling the jury beforehand, Hey guys, this is what happened. I think like they came in knowing a lot more. She gave her like the final piece of the puzzle, which other times you have to get it from the final three people.

[01:36:01] When you don't even know that's the truth. They're telling at that point in time where I think like, um, yeah, Camilla gave them like the ability to see the matrix before they went into both. I think she said, I think it was on an X interview. She was like, she wasn't trying to do that. Cause she wanted to give it to him. I mean, we see in the final tribal council that she's like propping him up. I mean, she at least does that. Right. And I think, I do think he comes in running downhill and that's why I want to credit it. Cause I, even if he had wanted here, like good for him. And that's a very legitimate win. However, if it was dicey, I would have maybe been like,

[01:36:31] but there were better, sure a pass. Um, but I do think that he comes in running downhill and that makes us a pretty good path for him. I think that, especially on the rewatch, because the first time I'm watching, I have the perspective that I think Joe just needs to not screw it up. Right. I'm like, just don't talk about integrity. Don't say that word. And I think, I think he comes in running downhill, but obviously wasn't it. And he, I don't think he did screw it up actively. It just became that he was so passive and so unheard of. I'm like, this is such a strange edit when I think it's like Harvey Joe and no one is talking about it. Um, yeah.

[01:37:00] And even like in his confessional before he was saying things that I thought were really salient. Like I didn't make moves just to make them. Like, I think that's fine. If you feel like I made necessary moves, but not just for, as I said, like shock and awe, I think that that's really fair. And I thought as well, his final statement was really good about being a caretaker about, you know, how he is always taking care of other people. And like he, he worked in the story there, um, about how he was a big threat that again, like if he's a goat, we, we take a little bit away from that, but it's like not being targeted as a threat,

[01:37:30] which I was at the time really impressed by, um, that I thought was really good. Yeah. Like he, like all of that. I don't think he, he stepped in the hypocrisy. I just think as like, he came in needing to do more. He needed to, now we know hit Kyle on like any of the emotionality. If Kyle took Joe on any sense of just loving Joe, like hit him there, make it seem like your move. I really think he needed to do that. But like, I felt like he, it could have been a lot worse. I just, if anything,

[01:38:00] I kind of felt like while the jury were loving that Kyle is a lawyer and even has all these degrees and everything, like Joe's moment of being like, I'm just a fire captain. Like firstly, incredible, noble, incredibly noble profession. And I thought that was really refreshing, but maybe that's because I've seen so many new era seasons that are like, I'm actually the, and I'm, I'm kind of, it's played out a little bit for me. Like, I think Joe being like, I'm just someone who saves lives. I thought that was really refreshing for me. Yeah. Just two things. Firstly,

[01:38:27] I saw something on Reddit where I actually quite agree. Like it's actually quite, it's actually slightly as a, as a person who comes from a family with a lot of people who work in education. Um, I think it's kind of slightly insulting saying, yes, I'm just, I'm just a teacher. I was thinking the same thing. Everyone's other story is being just a teacher. Like, I mean, how insulting is that to people who work in education? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's, that's slightly insulting. I do agree with you. Yeah. So I think, you know,

[01:38:58] it's a shame on even people being, saying we're a teacher, but, um, I mean, you have to study to be a teacher. It's just, I mean, South African teaching, you have to be a teacher and it's such a, difficult job. You know, it's nowadays, it's like stories. My family members tell me work in education. It's bizarre. I mean, just from when I was that long ago. Um, the other thing I will say about the final tribal council, I'm like, I, I, I, again, I understand why production is doing this.

[01:39:27] I know it costs a lot of money to host the live show. I just feel like this final tribal council of the party. It's so, it's almost, I don't want, there's like a better word than cringy. Like, it's like cringy. It's like a bit of almost like, like you need to be like a bit sadistic to enjoy that. Like a person who's just lost and they don't know why they haven't seen it. They sit there. They, and then you have like, Hey, we're going to pizza. We're going to drink wine. And you have to be like, and milk up and cheery about it.

[01:39:57] You have had no time to process. Do you know how traumatic survivor is? I mean, you've, I mean, there are people who've lost final tribal councils really, really needed the money. I've spoken to that are like, even now traumatized. But like years afterwards, decades afterwards, like reliving that moment in bed over and over. And you have to just sit there and put on a smile and, and, and eat pizza. And then even like Jeff's like, okay, Carl, we're going to come to you. And it's like, I don't have words, Jeff, just give me a second to think. Okay, we'll come back to you. You know? And then, then they,

[01:40:26] they focus on things which they think are like relevant in the story because like they didn't have like the full editing booth figured out yet. And then afterwards like, well, that doesn't really, I, I mean, the way I drink milk, it's like, okay, it's funny, but is it like, really is the one I do see a meme about how we drink milk when there's so many other things we could have discussed in that time. I think there's so many reasons. Like, I think the biggest reason obviously is the financial thing of, you know, flying everybody back to LA and being a live show. I know it costs money, it costs airtime,

[01:40:56] blah, blah, blah, blah. Like as a, as a person who kind of doesn't watch reality TV, because I don't, I don't enjoy it when other people like have like experience weird emotions on live TV. It's not something that appeals to me at all. It's, it's just sometimes you're uncomfortable to watch. I don't know why they keep doing it. It's just bad. That's my sense on the live after party, whatever you want to call it. The milk segment was funny. I saw Matt Liguori tweeted being like in 41, it was like,

[01:41:27] we're not even going to say guys. And in 48, it's like, there's a masculine and feminine way of drinking milk. Like, how are we here? And also at the time I was drinking tea and my elbow was down and I was like, why is he really right? What is this? But yeah, I mean, the question is, because I know miles tweeted being like, it's great that they get an after show. Like we didn't get an after show. Do you, would you like, cause in Australian side, there is no, they got rid of the reunion, which they had had minimally before COVID to then have nothing. Do you think that this is worse than nothing?

[01:41:56] If there can't be like a reunion months later after it's aired? I mean, if you, I mean, if you can't have nothing, then maybe that's better than nothing. Potentially. I, again, I don't know what the financials, I don't know what it costs to hold the live one. I don't even think we voted on it. Did we vote on a live? Did we? I don't even remember. It's been a long few months. I, I don't. I think we did vote on it. Did we vote on live reunion? Maybe we did. I can't vote because, I don't want to vote either. I just try and like, corral the votes.

[01:42:25] I'm like someone who doesn't have a vote, like every person in the new era, like Omer and like Murgatory, but I'm trying to like get everyone to where I want them to be. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I, obviously I think it's the financials. I don't think, I mean, I don't think they would. Yeah. I, I just, it's just so tough to watch these people who sometimes thought they would win or then like here, my main ally didn't vote for me and you have to sit there through it. Yeah. I think it's been, it's Joe and Eva handled it.

[01:42:53] Like not that handling it is bad. Like I've seen, it's heartbreaking across the board. Like they seem to get through it well. And like, it's a testament to them, but it's also so understandable when like the Charlies, the Owens are like sitting in like real shock. To be like, this must've been so shocking to Joe and Eva, like Joe and Eva, you know, Eva saying Joe's her biggest competitor at the final four. Like I found it shocking. So, I mean, well done to them. Like it's more than they should have had to do to be like, wait, what happened? Cause we as well, me with like thousands of words of notes and interviews and days. It's like,

[01:43:23] some of this is conflicting and difficult. So yeah, I mean, then that's like a thing speaks to their character. Again, it doesn't, I don't want to say that cause it doesn't show bad character to be. No, it doesn't. I mean, it's just impressive that they did so well with it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, everybody has disappointment. That's happens. That's normal in life. We get disappointed all the time. So, but it's not on TV, not on TV, not live. And then people being like, Oh, why are you so? There's a, here's a gif of you crying on a,

[01:43:52] on a live TV set. And like, why, why is that funny? I mean, I don't know. Maybe I don't have that sadistic. Yeah. I mean, that I enjoy this, but some people do anyway. To be fair, Owen tweeted, I think Gabe were winning and was like, this is one of the worst moments of my life, but it's objectively hilarious. So maybe with time and therapy, not, not right after, but yeah, I mean, I wanted to talk like Carl at, at final trouble comes. Cause I feel like I haven't spoken through Carl in this episode. Like I thought Carl in this episode. Cause he's about to get three chizzy points, right? Let's speak. It wasn't just the read.

[01:44:22] Like, I think here taking out Mitch is perfect. It might've been Camilla and it still would have been an okay situation if he feels he can like beat Mitch at fire. So that becomes a pathway going up against Camilla in fire at worst, which is like, if you know, if Joe and Eva win is, is what's going to happen. Seems fine. So five sets them up really well. And then at four, the move of, of, of, of keeping Joe and undermining him really lent in. I think the only other thing to do, I wouldn't put himself into fire.

[01:44:51] Cause I just kind of hate that. And I don't know that it was necessary. I think he could have put Joe into fire to definitely beat Camilla and still. Um, yeah. And I think still like had a good win there, but I think that undermining Joe by taking him through was so emblematic of his game. And this like extreme thing he was leaning into on undermining Joe. That was interesting. I think that even Camilla was fine because I, we still don't really know how Carl and Camilla goes. They love Camilla. I'm not taking that away.

[01:45:21] I just think they would have been competing for really similar, mostly Siva and Shaheen votes. And it could go either way. And they both probably speak to it really well. But like, if Eva can get that done, that's like best case scenario. And he can undermine Joe. I think like always he was able to, you know, have his cake and eat it too. And I think that was fine. And really like lent into the strategy. Um, otherwise he can take, you know, send Joe to really take a Camilla and really, again, I need to know how low down Camilla's fire was. If he really felt like Eva could beat her, like perfect situation. We really need like the stats there.

[01:45:50] And then on the final tribal council, I think especially on the rewatch, like I really saw a lot of good stuff. It just, it wasn't emphatic because that's not Kyle, but there was a lot of good stuff there. Um, as I said, building up Shaheen as like the brains and that being a big move, really like that, like appealing to Shaheen's ego and like something seemingly pretty true. And how in that he felt fine sitting next to Joe and Eva by building up Shaheen, I thought was really good. I really liked him molding it around like failing and getting up. We saw this recently in Australian survivor. And, um,

[01:46:20] I feel like he had to like construct it more. Like, I don't think that was Kyle's game. I don't think he fell very much. He was talking like about the first day. I think it was actually a really consistent game, but he made it about that. And that's very palatable to a jury. Another thing that I really liked that he did was he kept things a little vague. You know, Eva was like, Shaheen was going to come for us. And he was like, no, I wasn't. And then she got on that. She made a definitive. He kept it vague on like Shaheen came to me and I didn't know what he was going to do, but I used it. And then Shaheen can't be like, no, you're wrong. So he kept it like my interpretation was this and either way I was fine.

[01:46:49] And I thought that was all very good, but I was really shocked about how Eva came out. I mean, I did not expect Eva to get two votes. I think she really fought for it. I think she seemed the most emphatic. What did you think about how Eva did in the final travel council? So before I get Eva, I think what the one funny thing Kyle said was, yeah, I went to win the first challenge and lost a guy who broke his arm. Yeah. RIP Kevin. Yeah. Um, and just to answer your other question about putting Joe in, I don't, I don't know. I think if you put in Joe to win a fire,

[01:47:19] Joe's already won four immunity challenges. That's kind of his thing. Like I'm the physical guy. Like I beat everybody. And some people respect that. It's got this whole, like the David's and the genes of a world of like, yeah, physicality is everything, you know, you need to look like this. Um, and then have Joe beat somebody in fire again, just kind of boost that, that thing. So I think he didn't want to give him another kind of, uh, chip on his shoulder. Yeah. So that's why I just, I think it might've been like, okay. Like he, like David's like, my question is physical. And then like,

[01:47:49] doesn't vote for Joe who won four challenges anyway. Like he would have had an extra thing, but he had so much. Maybe the last, maybe the last thing that David saw was Joe beating him to fire. But like, yeah, that's my man, Joe. I get why he didn't do it. Yeah. Um, but if you felt like he couldn't trust Eva to take out Camilla and Camilla is such a big threat, do you think he should put himself into fire or before he puts Joe into fire? Um, I mean, this is just the guy in me. Um, I, I always, if I ever do play survive anything,

[01:48:19] I'd say play to win, not, not to lose. Right. So if, if I know I'm going to win a hundred percent, if I know I'm like without reasonable doubt, if you other people like fire, then I just have to do it. But if I think like I need to do this to win, I would do it. And I think if I, yeah, if I know my, my fire making skill is seven out of 10 and I was just two, I would just do it. We need the stats. Exactly. Like there's very, it's like a low risk, high reward, uh, situation. He did say he's like, I do feel pretty good about it.

[01:48:48] So it feels like, it feels like there was low risk all around. Like again, what are the stats? Like if, if Camilla's a two and Eva's a six, I think that's fine. And if he's a seven and Joe's an eight, then like, okay, fine. Do Eva. And then if, if, but if Eva's like a four, maybe do you. And if you're like a five and Joe's like a 10, then maybe Joe, if you really need Camilla out, but I get why he did it. And like, not do well at that fire. So maybe he's like, we're all going to beat Camilla. So like, this is like a perfect situation. Yeah. Maybe she's like a one, but she said she felt okay about it.

[01:49:18] But then I don't know. And you also never know what if someone's been lying about how good they are at fire. Camilla loves to lie. And what if they also just get like, but anyone can get like, this thing with fire is like, even Joe, as he said, could have a bad day. And some of it is. I've never tried making fire with Flint, but sometimes you get it on the first strike. And sometimes you get it on like the 200 strike. It's just how it is. I'm always making fire with Flint in my apartment. Yeah. I mean, that, that is the thing is like, I think Kyle had putting himself in a fire,

[01:49:45] considering it can be like very situational when I do think like he has a chance even against Camilla, but really needs to fight for it. And also the others have a chance of beating Camilla anyway. Like, I don't think I'd put it. I think I, I think I like what he did and it made sense to undermine Joe. And I think that's why I think that's best. Then I think Joe, and I still think he could win and Joe will almost definitely take out Camilla. And then I think himself, but I also think that probably goes fine. I think he's set up well, but I think he did very well. Yeah. Final tribal council. Yeah, no,

[01:50:15] I think that's, um, and obviously like you asked about Eva. Um, yeah. Yeah. I felt like, I felt like the one thing about Eva's game was, this is, I don't get into this stuff, but like, I felt like her story was, uh, she's on the spectrum and she's still playing survivor. Um, where I felt like even in tribal council, that was still like a mantra or her like story where I felt like she could have expanded. Maybe she did on other things.

[01:50:44] And the survivor just like to put down the autism thing down her throat. But I felt like her, if she expanded on other things, she did except of not having just that story. But, you know, I know she's mentioned she had an advantage, um, and she didn't use it. that, but you know, that could have been played up better or even if she like use some of those advantages to take out people. I know her game was, I'm going to be strong with my alliance. Okay. But if she used some of those advantages throughout the game, make one or two moves,

[01:51:13] even if it wasn't just a move for sake of making a move, but to say, guys, like I played with my people. I won challenges when I had to, and I used, I made strategic moves with the tools I had at crucial times. Um, I have a well-rounded player. Could have maybe helped him. I don't know. Yeah. I think she did pretty well here though. Like I feel like she wanted people to realize she was downplaying herself. I think the issue was the perception where she was so kind of parented. And also clearly this whole Joe Eva block was not beloved. She has more votes than Joe.

[01:51:43] Um, where, yeah, I feel like people didn't love that perception as much as she was pushing back against parts of that. And, and even like Camilla says, if she can show that it's intentional that she played herself down in the, in the jury speaks section, which is the best thing the new era has ever done is add jury speaks, by the way, right before final tribal council, that no notes on that. But, um, yeah, like she says, if she could show that and even really did, like, I thought a lot of this was good and she was really fighting for it. And if anything, kind of like much like the season kind of like took over the narrative and it's like, but it's actually like not about you. Like, I want to know about Joe and go,

[01:52:12] and then she gets more votes and then Calvin's, but, um, yeah, I kind of felt like it took over the narrative. I think one thing, like she says that she would be an unprecedented winner, but I also think Kyle's strategy is very unprecedented. As I said, I think, yeah, I think he's got a very unique game. Yeah. Yeah. And as he said, like very well-rounded, super consistent. Like he got, I'm like the most average guy you'd ever meet or something like that. Yeah. And he played himself down in that. And I think people like humility. And I think that that was good too. Like, yeah.

[01:52:41] And I think he's better than average, but I think it was very well-rounded and he gets to this final five here in a majority and he gets, you know, he's like the worst thing you can say about the danger he faced here was that at a final four, Joe. Well, at a final four, Camilla wins immunity and sends him to fire against Joe seems tough. Otherwise like he can, and he can make fire and he can do, you know, like he just had the pathway, like very on law and could speak to it in a way that was impressive because the biggest question should have been,

[01:53:11] why didn't you take out Joe? And if Joe's not a threat, it's just not a question anymore. One thing I did think was interesting, by the way, was on safety without power, which is what Eva's like. I had safety without power and you guys didn't know. I think it lost a lot of legs because Shaheen actually had like clocked her nighttime journey. She told her allies about safety without power. And also Kyle had told Camilla. So it like, wasn't this big, they probably did actually all know about it. Like at that point has Camilla kept it a secret from like Mitch, probably not, you know, like I think that that lost some legs, but the interesting thing as well is while we're talking about things, I get wrong,

[01:53:40] the whole podcast last week, just like I had a lot of fun with Dino. I love the podcast, but like burn it. Safety without power. I always forget. I always forget in US survivor. Another issue with US survivor production, you can only use it for yourself. And like in global survivor, it's such a big thing that it's like super dynamic. It's so defensive and offensive. We saw this a bit in AU where it was like a double safety without power thing. Um, and there's so many decisions to make. And I was like, yeah,

[01:54:07] Eva would have had so much power to final seven and could have like made it a three, three, but like, no, she has to use it on her own side. And her whole. Like argument around it was, I didn't use it because it would have been very individual to like send myself out of tribal council. It's like a selfish thing to do. Whereas like in global survivor, as we know, you can use it as a team to like basically block a vote. And I always forget that they can't do that. And had she been able to do it, maybe she would have actually sent out someone on the bottom at the final eight in case they were ever going to fall for.

[01:54:36] And that would have like completely destroyed and negated that. I don't even know this. You have to play for yourself. You have to play for yourself. And this is what, cause I stood on the podcast and then my brother was like, we were talking about it and he was like, I'm pretty sure you can't do that. I'm like, I think I've known that in the past about US, but I just like forget because it's like a bad production decision. I think it's dumb and global survivor. We have both. And then I looked back and I like went and watched her when she reads it out. And it's like, yeah, it's you have to use it. Like you could give it to an ally to protect themselves, but you can't be like,

[01:55:05] I'm forcing you out of tribal council. Anyway, I just wanted to correct, correct all of the things. Okay. It's just interesting though, isn't it? Like, yeah, it's a very, it's not the same. And it's also. Yeah. Do you have more, do you have more questions for me that I can push back on you or should we get to the chizzy? No, I'm just reading through my things. I wanted to ask you like, what was kind of the standout scene, but you did say that the. The defining moments. Yeah. Well, what is it for you?

[01:55:34] Because I feel like I'm trying to capture the defining moments of every season. We didn't do it last season, but retroactively in my mind, it's Rachel playing the idol. Um, what do you, do you have a defining moment? Are you, I, there's a difference between standout scene and a defining scene. Yeah. the defining moments, very, very important. There's a difference between a standout scene and a, um, and a defining scene. I think the standout scene is definitely the one with, with Joe and Eva. I think it was,

[01:56:04] you know, it was, you know, quite powerful in the moment. Um, and we haven't seen something like that ever. And it kind of forms like this nexus about the rest of the season, uh, spins about, you know, duos. And then should you, shouldn't you take them out? Um, and spins out the best theme I would recommend for future seasons, survivor duos. Um, the swan, what's, what's, what's, what's like the, yeah, what's defining. Yeah. No, no, I was, I was having,

[01:56:34] I was saying something else. It's like, um, um, stand, that's, that's standout scene. Um, the finding, I think the defining, well, the defining thing for me was, or was when Camilla and Carl actually kind of, you know, finally got their secret lines to take out Shaheen and get that ball rolling off, of getting him into the end. I think that kind of just, yeah,

[01:57:04] that just cemented, it'll move the season like, tangentially in like another direction. Um, otherwise it would have been just like a straight for gonging or like, uh, you know, survivor season seven from Africa, which is like, this is what we're going to do and whatever. Um, I thought that was really quite cool. Uh, the way they pulled it off was insane. Um, and it just really set up the end game to fully understand why Kyle won. Um, yeah, I think that's, that's what I would call the, uh, defining moment. I still think that the Joe and Eva moment is so overwhelming that it's still the

[01:57:33] defining moment. Sometimes they don't, and it's that extreme. I think that they don't have to do with the winner story. But I do think it shows a like tonal distance in the season. If I'm looking at moves with Kyle, I also had the Shaheen moment. I think the Thomas move, um, with the holes Alliance, by the way, I spent the whole season talking about how holes is the best movie of all time. And it wins. So like holes for life, but also, um, yeah, I think the Thomas move where they like apparently really cemented their bond was a lot of fun. Like that to me was like probably the best episode of the season. I think definitely the best episode of the season.

[01:58:03] So that was really fun. That was a big win. So maybe the Thomas boot, I also think it might be a little quiet, but the thing is Kyle's game is a little quiet. It's behind the scenes. And this whole season isn't about big flash. So maybe that's the Shikhi move, but also maybe it is Kyle taking Joe at final four. Like maybe this decision that we're talking about, like him winning that challenge. And then as the winner having that decision to undermine Joe again, because it's not final travel council because it wasn't big enough. But I think that is like, this is Kyle's game. It has to do with Kyle and Joe, which I think is very important.

[01:58:33] And so does the Sheen move. And so does the Thomas move, but like Kyle getting one over on Joe or Kyle bringing Joe through. I do think that that's it. I mean, if you look at fire and like, to be fair, fire had him winning the challenge where again, if he's against Joe and fire, maybe that's the one way that like Kyle doesn't win this. So, well, I guess if he's against Camilla, but how was that going to, if Camilla wins fire, but anyway, it seems like he wouldn't have. So it feels like Joe, like he has to win the challenge. Well, he, he does. Or Joe and Eva win the challenge. He's also fine.

[01:59:03] But like, so that whole traject, that whole sequence is him beating Joe in the challenge, choosing Joe to go with him to fire. Then Eva having to experience the difficulties with her autism and beating Camilla, who's like this big threat to it. So that's not all, that's not a moment. That's like this whole finale. And I don't really think the finale was good enough to define the season, but maybe it is fire. Like the whole idea of fire, him taking Joe to send Eva there to take out Camilla,

[01:59:30] like does encompass so many different parts of all four of these very big characters in the show. So I mean, maybe it's just fire in general. Yeah, no, I, I don't, I don't disagree with what you're saying. Um, and I, I do think like, but again, this is like back on about Thomas, but there were just five people in that tribe again. Uh, and then Thomas got puked, um, with fight by Joe Camilla and, um, and Kyle, but yeah, that's just, again,

[01:59:58] my all the more reason why we need to start with two tribes of 10. So you don't have one tribe getting decimated because that's how this new format works. You lose your Flint. You don't have any resources and then you just get decimated. I mean, you lose the first tribal council, it's very high likely you lose the following ones. Um, yeah, but I did, I did feel like there was a part in the middle. So I'm just going back now. I felt like when, when Cedric, uh, was it Cedric Cy and, um, which one Mitch,

[02:00:27] no Cedric Cy and, uh, yeah, Mitch and Chrissy and, oh, yeah, it could have been anything. Cy, Cedric and Mary, when they got out of it, that when they were like the final three, um, Hula members, I, I, I, I, well, Haley, I said, they're all three going to make, uh, they're all three going to make the merge or want to call it, whatever. Um, because if you, I've said this so many times, if you get through that kind of learning how to survive a tribal, you've done it three times and you get into the mid game,

[02:00:57] you are so much more adapted playing the game that you will definitely survive that part. If it's, if it's equal, those three people will always be more able to get to the end. Um, um, yeah, that's what we saw. Like, you know, Thomas getting knocked up first, uh, same with charity, thank Bianca. Um, but that's not, but like, that's not defining because. I'm just saying it's just a comment about. Well, if anything, like one of the,

[02:01:24] one of the most unfortunate narrative parts of the season was like the whole first half was about Vula. And then Mary like survives a little bit, but they just don't go on. And like to, to have that run. And I think as well, like what I enjoyed about 45 was that it was like a Luvu Bello Reba. Like it was a tail in three parts, but it actually worked. And I really love that whole cast. Um, and I think that that narrative kind of works. Like it gets passed on. Whereas I feel like this was like Vula and we were all in that. And then that was like immediately unimportant.

[02:01:53] Like saying Cedric go in the worst possible way away from each other. We lose all of those plot lines that we never see out on. Cedric and Mary and Cedric and Cedric and all of that. And it's done. And now we like start this kind of new season and like, we have to start the narrative again. So that was, yeah, very, very unfortunate. So yeah, but like all those moments were all definitely big moments, but that wouldn't define the season. I feel like, yeah, the flat, the flash of the pre-merge, even the annoying flash does not define this. Okay. Final question for me before we leave it, Jesse.

[02:02:23] Um, I needed to score the pre-merge out of 10, score the post-merge out of 10, and then score the season out of 10. They're not ranking against other seasons, just like a point out of 10. Sorry. I was going to say as well, maybe defining moments because that new ruler tribe that voted out Thomas is Shaheen, Joe, Carl and Camilla. So like maybe the conversation that they had about like their heritage, which was, you know, it definitely reflects like the story element of the season. They're all really big characters.

[02:02:51] I think maybe that scene or even them winning the challenge. I think that would, this is the thing is that. Yeah. I mean, they win that challenge. It's like such a minor, note of the fact that Eva's having her experience as well in that episode five challenge. It was probably not that, but like, so interesting. They were so happy to win that challenge because they wanted to work together and like, they all go on to be so important in the season. So that's like the sliding doors of them winning that challenge. But it's probably not defining. Um, okay. Pre-merge out of 10, just based on like, what's great survivor. I think like, I,

[02:03:21] I liked some of the finicky stuff and I really liked episode four. I quite liked, I liked episode five too, actually. Um, I know some people might be low on it because production is annoying. I will give the pre-merge a six. Um, and I will give the post-merge. A two. And I will give the season three, but I like Kyle's win and I like Kyle and I like a lot of these people.

[02:03:51] And I feel me three or four. It's not great. So it wasn't here. We've been talking about it for two hours. So, you know, yeah. What about you? I'm going to put it back on you. Um, I think pretty much. this is what I hate about the new year. You know, because it sucks if one, we had it, I think last time where there were like three different tribes going in succession. Um, like tribe a, B and C when like the first three votes was it last season or the season before? Oh, um, yeah.

[02:04:21] I think. Yeah. I think that was why it was like, like from a, you get like a three dimensional picture of the season and all the players where now, if it's like one tribe, but this gets decimated. It's so, it's, it's poor design. So I, although I think this season was good, I still think the design kind of draws it back. So I'd give a preseason of five, um, for that reason, because I felt, I feel like you just see,

[02:04:50] it's only like kind of after episode four, if you actually start getting to know all the people at the party, like the party. And then. The people who are going to make up the end game and be like the winner contenders and who are like so important and who will be there actually in the last like couple of episodes. Yeah. And again, I think it's, I don't know if you've ever been through like, you go to your grandparents' house, your grandma's house. And like, she's got this like bowl of sweets, which she's like, Oh, you guys like our sweets. And when you go and you're like, Hey, grandma can have a switch. Hey, you know,

[02:05:20] and there's like this big thing about, she wants to always give you the sweets. And you always ask me about the sweets because you think it's important to her and she thinks it's important to you. And nobody really knows who started it way back in the days of your, about the sweets in your grandma's house, but it's just our thing that's there. All right. It's like the same thing with this like small tribe. I didn't like, there's like a reason and they like production or this or that, but now we're like stuck with it and we keep doing it. We don't know why, but that's like what we have to do now. That's how I didn't even let us vote on it. We did not vote on that. We didn't vote on anything,

[02:05:50] but like they didn't let the others vote on it. Yeah. You want to start with three types of, of six or two types of 10. I would just find two types of 10 every time, just for understanding, like getting an understanding of the place. Anyway, that's why I get a few seasons of five. AU is two tribes of 12 and I love the structure of AU. I've always said, like I've been saying recently that AU has like such a fun structure for me. If they can really like dampen the non-alims, then like there's two big tribes and then they swap. It's so fun. But the edit of AU is terrible. Like if you would emerge,

[02:06:19] the US survivor edit, and like we have had good cast, but like, I really do like the US survivor casting with the structure of AU, like perfect. And then you get survivor South Africa. Like that's what, yeah. Anyway, you were saying. Yeah. So I give the preseason a five. I give the post season. I wouldn't give them a two like you. I would say the fight, the like Shaheen move, like was kind of like, you know, when Camilla and, and Kyle got like their super sneaky gloves on.

[02:06:49] I really liked that. So I'd give it like a four and I'd give the season overall four and a half. Okay. So you go six, two, three, I go five, four, four and a half. Yeah. Like the Shaheen move was like, yeah. The David move. I gave him two points for some of that. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, look, we're here two hours in. All right. So we want to talk about it. It wasn't its best showing. It could be better.

[02:07:18] And we hope in the future it will be. Let's talk about the chili. Yes. The final, final, final thing. There's the Einstein quote, which is saying doing, the better is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So. They love these results. Jeff loves the same thing over and over. But we're going to get the same results. They want these results. They loved it. To be fair. Can I just say as well, we've complained. I know 45, 46 and 47 were wonderful seasons. Like really good survivor. Mostly because of the cast. Right. Yeah. So.

[02:07:48] Yeah. Not because of production again, like in spite probably, but. Yeah. Had a lot of great survivor. This. Anyway, I went to Europe. It's fine. And I cursed the season. I said, don't do anything interesting while I'm gone. And they were like, bet. All right. Take it away. Jacob's take a wine scene and MC color. Last year of the season. I have here from the Viva fact checker.

[02:08:18] The. Yeah. I just took a screenshot of this because. We did four years last week. So I don't think Randy's fully caught up and like. So incredibly fair. It was insane that we did this. And. I wanted. And I am glad that I'm like, look. The question was, is Carla an idiot. Or. A genius. And I knew that she would decide it. The. The. The. The. I knew that the result of that. Would decide the chizzy. And I thought that felt right. So.

[02:08:48] Well, assuming that that's what happens. Like you. You could. No, you can't screw it up. Actually. Definitely. It will be okay. But. I mean, last time there was some serious shenanigans with the chizzy being manipulated. And all of that. But it has happened. It didn't happen. No. You're complaining about production. Production intervening. There was some production intervening on Shannon's. Shannon's. Part last season. Yeah. Do as I say. Not as I do. I've always said the chizzy is an imperfect. Structure. Like an imperfect format. I've always. This is the thing. It's like, just know your own faults. Don't change them. Right.

[02:09:18] I made a few changes to the chizzy, but. I never said. How many times has the non winner won the chizzy? Almost like a ratio. Half a time. So the survivor fact checker has the stats on this. It does happen. In the new era. The. The winner of the season. Rarely wins the chizzy. Um. Yeah. It was Ricard. It was Omar. It was Jesse. It was Carson. It was D and Drew tied. So D was the first.

[02:09:48] Who tied. Have we haven't. Have we had an outright. So. And then was Charlie. And then Rachel tied. We've never had an outright. Winner. Of the season. Win the chizzy. That might be about to change. So. So. Like. So that's the inverse. So. The further the winner wins the chizzy. The worse the season is. Maybe. Maybe. Well here. Like yeah. It was really between Kyle and Joe. So the chizzy reflected that. I think in international. The winners do win a lot. Um. Yeah.

[02:10:18] Okay. Well my three points are going to Kyle. Because he was right. And I was wrong. He thought he played this episode well. I thought final four was good. Um. Yeah. Final five. Ivy had on lock. The only way this goes badly for him. Yeah. Is if Camilla wins immunity. And send him to fire against Joe. And even then maybe he wins. Anything's possible. So. And then he has to be against Camilla. And that stuff. But like. He could still win that. Like. Options abounded. And it was perfectly executed. So. Three to Kyle. Um. And I thought again. Good stuff at Final Travel Council as well.

[02:10:48] I wanted more oomph when I first watched. But I was seeing again. Final Travel Council was much like Kyle's game. It was like. It was there. But it was just a bit quiet. Then I'm asking for the oomph. Because I like oomph. And he's like. No. I'm doing it quiet. And that's what's working. And I'm like. What do I know? I'm so stupid Kyle. And that's the back and forth. Kyle. I can only apologize. All right. You did it. I'm so dumb. That's Kyle. Kyle. Who's probably a couple of challenges away. From winning the game. Like. And she pulled off the first one. She's in trouble to be fair.

[02:11:18] But like. Pulled off the first one. If he wins that second one. Sends Joe against Kyle. Like this probably is her game. Um. And I have to credit that. And then I'm giving one point to Eva. Because I feel like she and Joe. Weren't reading the game right. Right. Like. I won't throw stones at that glass house. However. Had they known. I feel like there were opportunities here. To target Kyle. To target Kyle at five. Um. But she fought really well. At Final Travel Council. I just feel like. Like she continued to miss opportunities. Because she read the jury wrong. Um. I didn't want to give it to Joe. Because I felt like. You know. I.

[02:11:48] Everything. All the credit I've given him. If anything. Too many truthy points. Through credit that was not there. Um. So I couldn't give to him. And then Mitch as well. Even though I do think that Mitch had a better chance than we thought. Um. With the jury. And I do want to talk about that. Well. I. I have spoken about that. And I just want to credit that. This was so hard at five. Watching him not fight. Maybe he did and we didn't see it. But like even. I mean. I. I needed him to really fight. And even the fact. And this actually speaks to the season as well. That like none of the reward choices mattered. Because the structure was so. Mutually beneficial.

[02:12:18] And just like laid out. Like even like Camilla. Takes Eva. And it's completely fine. Like she's not making a mistake. Because like what Mitch should be doing. Is using opportunity to like go to Joe. Like if I was Camilla. I'd take Mitch. Be like don't let Mitch get in their ear. It's like Mitch isn't going to. You know. So like. Like I needed Mitch to really like use that opportunity and fight. And he didn't. So I think the 3-2-1 almost speaks for itself. But what points are you giving? The first one. So I want to give you another minus one. For your poor performance this season. I need minus 10.

[02:12:48] I'm just reading this. It says this week's guest. That guy Dina. So I know it's a screenshot. Where? Oh yeah. This week's. Yeah. Yes. Oh no that's fine. Because that was from last week. I know it's from last week. But it doesn't look good on the podcast. That's not on me. No. I've made a. I've done a lot wrong. But this graphic is the best I can do. This is fine. Come at me for my many many other issues. I don't know what's going on. Like somebody's going to read. It's like. Like who's. Is it dark? Is it.

[02:13:18] You know the administration here is awful. Survivor will tag you in another story about that eventual child. That's fine. But yeah I think. I think you're right. This is kind of a slam dunk. I think it would be very strange if I don't echo your sentiment. Kyle three points. Number one. And the jizzy for the same things you said. Not much to add there. Camilla two. Again.

[02:13:48] I felt like if she got to the end. You know. Maybe if she won the fire challenge. Yeah. That's like Dr. Point. But yeah. Not the best fire performance. But a good. A good like attempt at the end. And obviously Eva won. For. You know. Feeding Camilla and the fire. Getting to do votes. Yeah. Yeah. So that puts the. That's fair. The final charts. Puts Kyle. The first. Solo chizzy winner.

[02:14:17] Of any new era winner. Yeah. That's interesting. So Kyle. 33. Joe. 26. Camilla. Now 19. Eva. 18. And after that four. Who do we have? Cedric on 11. Wonderful. Love it. No. Like no regrets for real. I don't know why it's coming out sarcastic. Obsessed with it. Cedric. I still maintain. He was doing some difficult stuff. He was playing. He. He had no one to hide. Cedric. I see. Yeah. And also. Yeah. Voting alone here.

[02:14:48] Obsessed. Cedric. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the chizzy. Jack. I think we. We did it. Either way. I had so much to say. You had some great points. I felt like this was a great discussion. I felt like. Yep. You know what? Like after the episode. I felt like. Again. And. Like I'm so. I was going to spend two hours. Talking about this season. And also. Like I was so wrong. And like. I had so many conversations. With so many intelligent people. Who were like. Kyle's definitely going to win. And I was like. No. Even like literally. At the point where it was like.

[02:15:17] One vote each. I was like. Joe winning still. Like I. Part of me still. Like a large part of me. Most of me. And I was like. Damn. I was so wrong. I should really retire from this. I don't know what's going on. And why would anyone listen to me? Like the imposter syndrome. Of the fact that like. I don't play the game. And I don't know what I'm talking about. Those two things combined. But I'm like. You know what? I feel like once I. And do another podcast. So I can't possibly be wrong. Because the season is finished. And we talk it out. We get some clarity around. Pretty much everything. Other than the fact of like. The conflicting narrative. We were given.

[02:15:47] And that might just exist. In like. How murky humanity is. And people might say one thing. And do another thing. Say Joe's a big threat. But they're not actually. Really want to vote for Joe. The murkiness of. You know. The human brain. I'll feel better. And you know what? I do. I feel it was good. It's fine. Sometimes I'm wrong. You know. I'm not spoiled on the season. That's awesome. The thartic experience. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you so much. So. Should we. Should we sync up our word or words. Or should we just.

[02:16:17] No, no, no. I'm going to keep trying. Just the last question. Thoughts on. Thoughts on season 49. And the season 50 spoilers. Oh. If it's all rumors. I would rather say. Rumors. Yeah. Yeah. Well. We're going to find out. In a few days. I was really glad. That they didn't announce the cast. The day of the finale. Which is what they were teasing. With that amazing troll. On the Instagram page. I'm really glad. They didn't do that. This season. Even this season. Deserved better. Than having their entire finale. An interesting finale.

[02:16:47] As we've discussed. For over two hours. Completely overshadowed. By the 50 cast. Now. So I'm glad. They're doing that next week. We should have some content. Coming up for that. As well. I know that there is. Sam. I just saw it on the YouTube. Like they're releasing. The patron podcast. We did from last July. Where we did. A draft of who we thought. Would be on 50. So. I think that's. Available now. Yeah. I mean. In terms of 49. They're going to do the same thing again. In terms of 50. The cast seems.

[02:17:17] Not to be too negative. But the cast seems like. It's. All over the place. Like. I don't know. I don't want to speak on rumors. But from what I've seen. It just feels like. They had a hundred different visions. And then they kind of achieved. None of them. They needed to like. Pick a lane. And like any lane would have been fine. But they picked like 15 lanes. And now. Cars are crashing. Too many lanes. I don't know. If you've ever worked in marketing. In a business. But they say. If you. If you want it. If you want to rebrand your company. And you need to choose a new logo. And a color scheme. You need to get one person.

[02:17:46] One marketing firm. To go and do it. And then they're going to come back. And say. Your new branding is. Neon green. Or bright pink. And you should just roll with it. Because if you sit in a boardroom. And you have every single person. Give her. Give her input. On what the branding should be. You either end up with. Black and white. Or gray. And this is like. Not even a joke. This is like real stats. Because that's the least offensive. To a boardroom full of people. So I actually. Agree with you. Completely. I think it's. They sat in a boardroom. And then everybody got the say.

[02:18:15] And now we have a. Very gray. That is the rumor. Very gray looking cast. Where. It could have been. Neon green. Or bright pink. And if somebody just. Roll with it. Saying. You got you. But you. We nominate you. Go in. Get us a list. We'll speak it if you want. And then that. We just. Go for gold. Yeah. Well. If it's going to be the new era format. Like at least. Part of the new era format. Some of these old schoolers.

[02:18:44] Are going to be so confused. Again. We sat in the pre-merge. Being like. What happens. If this and this. And I am back to. Everyone go up and vote. And that's the most simple way. But they're not even doing it. In the most simple way. Like they're keeping it really complicated. And I also know. I'm like. I need to know how I feel. About the re-vote rules. Because I know this stuff. Will keep coming up. Because that's the format. Of the new era. But it's going to be happening. With people who haven't played. In decades. And they're going to be like. What. Is safety without power. And they're going to be like. Wait.

[02:19:13] But can you play safety without power. And no one else. And they're going to be like. No. That's only internationally. And Colby Donaldson is going to be like. What? Is it. Is it like old school. Versus middle school. Versus new school. Is that kind of the. I haven't. I don't know what the. I don't know if this class is even legit. And I haven't worked out. If they could. If that's even what. No. I don't think so. It could be old school. Versus new school. I think there might be 50. Then you need. 20 people. Not 18. I don't know. I think I've seen 22. And then there'll be. Two people to 49. Oh. Okay.

[02:19:43] I mean. That's not a bad idea. Old school versus new school. It's not a bad idea. I'm not against it. Well. I mean. That's not three tribes. So. If that's. If like. The rumors are true. Just on numbers. It's a win. Yeah. But isn't the Australian survivor. Not going to start with. Two tribes to 12. I mean. Those are the rumors. I don't know. And then we. I'd get the structure I want. That I just asked for. Yeah. But over 27 days. How does that even work? For 26 days. Someone can go home every day.

[02:20:13] They're doing it soon. For AUV World. Right. So. Yeah. I mean. That's 14 days. That's what I heard. Is it true? I don't know. I mean. I don't know. I don't know how. Nothing's official. I don't. It's not 14. I don't think. It's just. Kind of 14. It's just like. I heard. Like 15, 16. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I heard. Yeah. Anyway. Fun stuff ahead, Jacques. With the aforementioned Rob Bentele. Do you have any thoughts on Rob being in the show? Or are they too dark? No. I mean.

[02:20:43] I have thoughts. I think. I'll say the same thing that I said. That I told you before the. Before we watched. The season of Adina 1. When Chappis was going in. I said like. Chappis is like. An impossible task. Because he plays such a. Extreme game the first time. I don't think he's going to be able to pull it off again. I think. Rob played with. Some. Very gullible. And like. Non-dynamic players. Didn't he play with you? He did. That's what I'm saying. Non-dynamic players. Oh. So.

[02:21:12] His way to the end was. I mean. That kind of gameplay. You can. You can play with. That kind of people. I don't know if he. Maybe. If he's dynamic enough. If he can innovate this game. Then. Sure. But it's like. I expect. The same thing we've seen. On. Winners at war. When. With all those kind of. Players who's won the game. When Rob. Austin Rob. Was like. Okay. We're going to do this thing. When nobody's going to talk. And we're all going to sit around. They're like. Are you really going to try this. With like seasoned veterans.

[02:21:42] Like it's not going to work. So. I'm just afraid. Like he tries to play that game. And then. You know. Is Tony going to just. Roller. Go with what he says. Is Dave. And. I mean. There's some. You know. The Australians alone. I don't. There are so many dynamic players. Yeah. Is a king of Bankstown. Going to be like. Okay. You want to. Build a bus. And we all just. Stay loyal. And I'll go. Get you there. I don't think that's going to happen. So. That's my thoughts.

[02:22:13] I'd be interested to see how it plays out. And I do really. Really. Put my money on Lisa. That's my. That's my. Yeah. Your pick. Summary. Yeah. Well. It's wild. I've never had a winner pick ride. I've never had a winner pick ride. Not once. All the time. So. Yeah. You almost had. Can I just say as well. Peter. Like does all of these. Like super coach. And like. You know.

[02:22:42] Like fantasy football stuff. And he'll always be like. Oh. I was going to do that. I'm like. But you have thought through every option. Like you were going to do. 10 different things. Because. And so I always take that away from him. But now I'm like. I was going to pick up. I really was. It's probably on the draft. That I said that. It's wild to me. That someone you played survival with. Is like with Tony. Like the sixth degree of separation. I know that we have them anyway. It's two degrees. Yeah. It's like one degree now. They're like. It's weird because like. They're TV characters. But like you clearly are a person. How did we get into the television?

[02:23:12] Like it's too close to home. You're here with me. And I'm a person too. Anyway. Clearly. We've gone. We've gone too far. Jacques. You're not really on social media. Is there anything for you to plug to the listeners? No. No. No. No. No. I do. Do some things on Instagram. Like once a month. I do something exciting. I actually started to like. Practicing. I think I forgot totally last time. For the Kappa Marathon. So I'm on Strava now. I'm like. I'm like a Strava. I'm not like. I'm not going to. Like a fitness junkie. I mean that's fair. But I do like.

[02:23:41] Go on once a day. Or like. Post my. Whatever I run. And then I. See what other people have been up to. So that's cool. For any. Survivor Strava people. Maybe not. The right audience. It's not me. I'm not that audience. Yeah. But no. No. I'm doing some things. Maybe in a couple of months. Or years. I am. Stephen's writing a book. Or he's written a book. Right? Yeah. Which I want to read. Because. I am on a certain. Venture.

[02:24:11] And if it does pan out. I will have like. The biggest. Survivor scoop for you ever. And. Podcast. I don't want to. Over. Promise. Under deliver. But. Yeah. I'm going to buy Stephen's book now. I'm going to make a note. I don't know if I ship to. South Africa. But. I'll make a plan. Were you. Oh this was sweet. Were you dropping. Song titles. In this podcast. Throughout. No. None of this. This time. Unfortunately not. Have you been doing. No Taylor Swift titles. No.

[02:24:43] Work out what happened. You're like the people. You're like the people. After the tribal. You have to process. Like how they really. Fucked up. And didn't win. Like how you got. The last episode. So wrong. That you have to. Process it. I understand. That's a difficult spot. To be in. Yeah. All the people. All the people. I criticize. Are I'm like. You just read the jury. So wrong. It's such like. A fatal flaw. It's like. And I love that Kyle read it well. Because that's. I think that like. An Adam Klein level read. He's someone I reference. A lot like that. Or Sandra even. Like I don't know about that. Which he did probably. Even more purposely. Than Sandra.

[02:25:12] Like she was kind of like. This isn't working. I'm going to sit with him. And he was like. I will sit with him. And exploit it. Love that. But the people I criticize. Are I'm like. You're just reading the jury wrong. Like you can't play the game. If you're reading the jury wrong. Like that's the whole game. You can't analyze the game. If you're reading the jury wrong. It makes it very hard. And we have way more tools. Than they do. So. Yeah. My apologies to Kyle. With the apology list. Kyle. Shaheen. Also. I was like. He's wrong. He was right. Mitch. He seemed to get it. The audience. I think that's it. I think I've now.

[02:25:42] Like. It's enough. You've apologized to all the people. If you could have offended. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So next up for us. Season 49. I think. So we'll see how it goes out. We'll see. Kyle. Please accept this chizzy mug. As my humble apology. You can follow me. At Shannon Gates. And Instagram. Twitter. Blue Sky. I put out six. Australian Survivor Deep Dive. So you can catch all of that. 25 plus hours of content on that. As I said. Some 50 stuff coming out. I'll tweet. About all of this. I'll post all of this. We know Global Survivor dot com.

[02:26:12] Because. AUV World. Actually. That's next. Not 49. AUV World. It's all. There's gonna be so much preseason coverage. We might do some off season stuff. We're gonna have fun. So don't miss any of that. But thank you all. Again. I apologize. Thank you Jacques. As well. Thank you to our team behind the scenes. And I will see you all next time. Bye. Bye. Australian Survivor is safe. Survivor in New Zealand. Survivor. Survivor. Survivor. Wizards. 21 South African. 12 ordinary Australians. 13 million.

[02:26:44] Guamal. 1 million pounds. Million. Million. I did. Million. Tribal. Survivor. Survivor. Tribal. Survivor. The adventure of a lifetime. The adventure of a lifetime.