Survivor Global: Archetypes, Edits and Legacy | S47 Finale with Jacques Burger

[00:00:09] Survivor Survivor Survivors

[00:00:13] 21 South African 12 ordinary Australians

[00:00:23] Millions of the year

[00:00:24] Millions of the year

[00:00:25] I did

[00:00:29] Survivor Survivors

[00:00:31] Tri-Swe

[00:00:32] The adventure of a life

[00:00:37] Hello everyone and welcome to RHAP's coverage for Survivor Global for the finale of Survivor 47. Rachel won. Rachel got me the draft win which I'm very excited about wearing my tiara for the

[00:00:50] people that aren't on video. I've been wearing it since she won. It's way too tight for my head but still making it work. And I have a great guest to talk about this episode and the season at large with. He's someone I always love to talk about Survivor with. Survivor South Africa. It is the great Jacques Burger. Jacques, thank you for being here.

[00:01:07] Hi Shannon, it's great being here. Congratulations on your win on your tiara. I saw your Instagram reel. It's really a stellar one.

[00:01:15] Um, did the people not say they're not look at you weird like a

[00:01:20] Oh we hated it.

[00:01:20] like a full adult woman running through the streets with a tiara being phoned by I'm assuming it was her husband.

[00:01:26] Uh, yes.

[00:01:27] Yeah. Yeah. Well for those who haven't seen the video I put out, it was me just celebrating. You can see it on my Instagram or Twitter, whatever. Blue Sky. Um, yeah. And so we did, we filmed some of that. Like firstly, I did this before Rachel won. I was really confident she was gonna win. So the most impressive thing Rachel did in an impressive game was getting past my enormous jinx.

[00:01:45] And yeah, the stuff that was in public, like at the grocery store, we hated that. He hated that. I hated that. I had the crown on that I'd like hide it and I'd put it on like no one's coming go.

[00:01:53] And with the clips of very short because we didn't enjoy being in public and doing that. Um, but we did it for the content, right? So thank you to my husband for going along with my dumb ideas and coming up with and adding to them. He was like do the swing. He's into it, you know, marry someone who wants to do the stupid stuff with you. I think that's my biggest takeaway. But I'm very happy that, you know, I finally, I'm very happy that.

[00:02:14] I got a draft win and that it was with Rachel, like worth the wait, you know?

[00:02:18] I mean, it's, it's, it's related, but unrelated, but I don't know if you ever saw my survive application video. I think it's on YouTube. I think there's both like the really shit one, which I didn't get on. And then the better one, which I got on.

[00:02:30] Um, but I shot it the day after the season six finale. So I was in Cape town at, uh, like, uh, uh, probably not over the, uh, the, uh, the dock here is whatever.

[00:02:41] And it was just like this montage of me and doing like these random things in Cape town, like in front of the public and people watching me.

[00:02:49] And Hayley was like, why are you doing this? So awkward. I have to film you like climbing into like this small train that all the kids ride and everything.

[00:02:56] And, um, so yeah, I mean, it's, I've not that I make a lot of social media videos, but I have done one where I was in public for, you know, shooting four minutes with a footage.

[00:03:05] And, uh, Hayley was hiding every second of it as well. So yeah.

[00:03:10] It's, it's for it's you got to do it for the content, but yeah, I think that the special mention to the spouses who put up with our bullshit has to be the first special mention of the podcast.

[00:03:19] But Jack, how are you doing? You know, you're bookending my US survivor year.

[00:03:23] We talked about the first episodes of 46, which feels like a lifetime ago.

[00:03:26] We peppered that Taylor Swift coats. That's where we were at in March, 2025, 2024. Listen to me.

[00:03:33] Ready? Skipping ahead.

[00:03:35] Um, and now you're here on the finale podcast. What's happened to you in the last year ish of time?

[00:03:40] Has this been the longest that we've gone? I think I mean, it has to be right.

[00:03:43] If it's the first episode of one season and the last one of the next one, I think it's kind of our longest time we haven't spoken.

[00:03:49] Yeah.

[00:03:50] Yeah. No, a ton has changed. Um, I think the biggest one is I'm currently back in South Africa, uh, permanently.

[00:03:57] You can see behind me, I have clear skies. Oh, well, not clear skies, but, uh, sunshine-ish skies, not, uh, not rain, not snow.

[00:04:05] So, um, wearing short, short, short, short, what do you call it? Short sleeve shirts.

[00:04:09] Um, so, uh, yeah, back in South Africa, lots of changes happened. Um, we bought a house. This is now, I'm not one of us who own a house. Um, which is a weird experience.

[00:04:21] I know people always make a big deal out of it, but it feels like if you've ever played like plants versus zombies or like these, like shooting games, which you like this is zombies coming into your house and just have to kind of defend.

[00:04:33] So there's no kind of end game. You just play until you lose. Um, that's what it feels like walking through a house. I feel like everything's going to break until, until they die.

[00:04:43] So it's like a never ending game or never ending piece of stuff that you have to do. Um, but yeah, that's good. And like you said, I think our previous survivor chat, we had all the Taylor Swift songs.

[00:04:53] I'm not going to do it this time. Um, and people, my brother said, a lot of people were like, well, Jacques absolutely bodied you in that and you should be ashamed.

[00:05:01] So I'm not going, I don't meet around too. I like doing things that I win clearly.

[00:05:06] Yeah. I mean, I, I, I can prepare. I mean, I kind of suck a punch too. I can prepare with a list of songs.

[00:05:11] Yes. Um, you know, I, I, it wasn't a fair fight because I had time to kind of prep what I want to say and you had to, uh, you know, play by you.

[00:05:18] So, uh, sorry for sneaking it up on you six months ago, but, um,

[00:05:22] It's fine. It's a controversial week for coming into things with lists, which we'll probably talk about later in the podcast.

[00:05:27] But that is true. That was unfair.

[00:05:29] Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't fair. But anyway, now we've got the finale podcast, which is something I've never done with you.

[00:05:35] Uh, usually you and I do these podcasts typically right just around after the merge.

[00:05:39] So there's like these eight or 10 people in the game and there's like all these big moves and these alliances running each other.

[00:05:44] Now we kind of just have to, I don't know, take the season from zero and go through it.

[00:05:49] I would assume. So it's this new territory for me. Um, that's for sure.

[00:05:53] So let's see how it goes.

[00:05:55] I mean, yeah, there's a lot of macro stuff with the season where it kind of ranks.

[00:05:58] I think Rachel's game is so interesting. Sam's game is so interesting.

[00:06:00] And they spoke to it, I think really well.

[00:06:02] And final trouble council will probably continue that discourse because the online podcast discourse and the juror discourse was so intertwined.

[00:06:11] You could tell that these were super fans, very online super fans who were like, what will your legacy be?

[00:06:16] I'm like, this is what we're talking about. It's like a you were better than my type winner.

[00:06:19] It's like, do they have like a line into the future of Twitter?

[00:06:22] Like, how are they doing this? So a lot of the discourse we had was on the show.

[00:06:26] We're going to talk about it, but I mean, yeah, now that we're talking to you at the end of the season,

[00:06:29] how have you felt about the season at large? Who did you enjoy from the cast?

[00:06:34] Like, what are your thoughts?

[00:06:35] I think this is, it's, it's been an interesting season, I think, because firstly, I'm getting to the burner.

[00:06:42] I mean, I have some notes on it, but I think somebody, I don't know, I can't remember if it was Dalton Ross.

[00:06:46] Somebody said it's the first time in, I don't know how many seasons where there's three tribes.

[00:06:50] And in the first three episodes, you have like one from every tribe going.

[00:06:53] Well, getting voted out. I think they've had that before, including Medivacs.

[00:06:57] But I think, yeah, Mike said that it was, yeah, a vote each time.

[00:07:00] Yeah. So the disaster tribe trend was kind of ended here.

[00:07:04] Yeah, yeah. And I think just from kind of the way the show is designed or the way the edit is designed,

[00:07:10] typically the tribe who loses gets more airtime, so you get to know them better.

[00:07:14] So a lot of the time, you know, one of these like really dominant tribes get into the merch

[00:07:17] and don't really know the players because you haven't seen that of them.

[00:07:20] To no fault of the personalities of the editors, it's just out, out, let out.

[00:07:23] So I think kind of coming in, I think I knew the players a lot better than I had on previous seasons.

[00:07:32] There was no person, I think with the exception of Genevieve, there was no person who was like,

[00:07:36] you know, who the hell's this person after three episodes?

[00:07:38] I think that's kind of an Australian staple where you're like five weeks and you're like,

[00:07:42] hey, is this person new? Like they come in later.

[00:07:45] So I think Genevieve is maybe the only one where after three episodes, I'm like,

[00:07:48] I said, who the hell's this person?

[00:07:49] And then like later on, she gets kind of like a, you know, she gets promoted from supporting cast to main cast,

[00:07:56] which was quite good.

[00:07:57] And I think it's also kind of, it was a very strong finish.

[00:08:01] I think these last three or four episodes were quite good from kind of the Operation Italy.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:06] It kind of went, you know, wow, now it's changed.

[00:08:09] It wasn't as predictable as you would have expected it to be.

[00:08:13] Yeah.

[00:08:13] I think the end game, there was a lot of, you know, very good episodes.

[00:08:17] I have a reason on why I think that is, but we'll get into it.

[00:08:21] And then, I mean, you flake it in with some interesting characters, like, you know,

[00:08:25] it's sad we lost Asia, who's a podcaster.

[00:08:27] I think we would have liked to see her longer.

[00:08:30] I think the production people were sad that John left earlier.

[00:08:34] I think he was a very good narrator.

[00:08:36] And then we have a couple of interesting characters, like, you know, somebody like Rome, who, you know,

[00:08:41] demonstrated that the sitting down and doing the puzzle with puzzle pieces handed to you is not a successful strategy.

[00:08:49] All the way until his demise, you know, just after the, what do you want to call it, pre-merge, merge,

[00:08:55] or that whole sequence of him, you know, it was great, the production.

[00:09:01] I think they just love this guy building himself up onto this, you know, high pedestal.

[00:09:05] And then just like this fall from grace.

[00:09:07] I think everybody kind of enjoyed that.

[00:09:10] And then obviously, I think we had a good winner in Rachel.

[00:09:13] And like you said, a lot of stuff in the final episode and final show of the council we can talk about.

[00:09:18] Yeah.

[00:09:18] Yeah.

[00:09:19] Well, I mean, I think that's, as you said, like the fact that it was pretty even between the tribes at the beginning,

[00:09:24] it goes with how I feel about the season, which was like I said, my word is consistency.

[00:09:29] Like, I think it was very consistent.

[00:09:31] I think the edit was consistent.

[00:09:32] I think with small gaps, we can talk about Genevieve's early edit, but we got to know everyone, I think, in a pretty comprehensive way.

[00:09:39] I think that the play styles, like people were besting each other.

[00:09:42] There were wins and losses.

[00:09:44] Like, as Sam said, no one had like a perfect game.

[00:09:47] So they were all pretty even.

[00:09:48] I think that Operation Italy was a highlight for me.

[00:09:51] But otherwise, I felt like it was reliably enjoyable time every week when you would show up.

[00:09:55] So I just feel like it was a consistent season.

[00:09:57] I know a lot of people have it as like their favorite of the new era.

[00:10:01] I really enjoy it.

[00:10:02] But for me, consistently, it's probably like ranked fourth.

[00:10:05] Like 42 for me has a special place in my heart.

[00:10:06] And I love that season.

[00:10:07] I'll defend it to my dying day.

[00:10:09] 46 is the opposite because it was such low lows and such high highs.

[00:10:13] And as a person, I tend to like that more.

[00:10:15] Like I tend to the extremes and I'll like kind of see the lows through for the kind of better things, which is something I've said in the past, even how I look at game styles.

[00:10:23] I kind of just prefer that in my life.

[00:10:25] So I put 46 above it.

[00:10:27] But I think 45 is close to it.

[00:10:29] Also really good.

[00:10:30] And I really like 47.

[00:10:31] Like that's the top four to me, probably trailing out to like a 41, 44, 43, which kind of ends up shuffling around those bottom three.

[00:10:38] But yeah, I have it really high, but I have it like in the middle because I feel like consistently solid is my viewpoint on it.

[00:10:46] Yeah, I definitely don't think it's the emptiness machine that season 43 was.

[00:10:51] But it still was.

[00:10:54] I think there was still a lot of characters that were quite memorable.

[00:10:57] Like I said, we mentioned Rome, which is somebody.

[00:11:00] Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:01] And I think just like the soul was also somebody I really enjoyed.

[00:11:05] You know, he was just this even it's one of those people, even when he was voted out and he was a juror, he just had like such a presence on the screen with like his vests.

[00:11:14] And the way he was sitting there and like looking.

[00:11:16] People love the vests.

[00:11:17] Yeah, staring down at the people and kind of giving these, you know, two word explanations and people go, oh, wow, look at what he said.

[00:11:24] So I think in terms of characters, I think also I had, you know, many good characters.

[00:11:31] And then I obviously, we discussed in a bit, I know people always complain about there's too many game bots on the show or whatever.

[00:11:38] And then you have like a lot of emotional players, like somebody like Teenie, who wears a heart in his sleeve.

[00:11:42] And then it kind of gives you a whole nother dynamic to the game, where it's people who's just, you know, playing with emotions all the time, which is kind of a refreshing breath for me, which I enjoyed.

[00:11:54] So, yeah, I think you're right in terms of ranking it.

[00:12:00] Not the time to discuss it.

[00:12:02] I think we should go back to longer seasons.

[00:12:05] But that's a different conversation.

[00:12:09] Yeah, I mean, well, look, I've been saying this whole time that with the shorter new era format, I've been drafting for the fact that people can win by winning out because they have the outs at four and it's a final three.

[00:12:19] And there's fewer rounds.

[00:12:20] We're going to have, you know, like even like split tribals where people are immune more.

[00:12:24] This is the time to win to the end.

[00:12:26] And I've been drafting big guys that I thought could do that.

[00:12:28] And then Rachel, who I did not draft for that purpose, did do it.

[00:12:32] So the prophecy came true.

[00:12:34] And that is, you know, a way to possibly gain the new era.

[00:12:37] And it's definitely set up this really interesting conversation around types of ways to play and being like an underdog.

[00:12:43] Like you've been in fighting from the bottom and having the idols and the trinkets and the immunities versus trying to like have some overt control,

[00:12:50] which is really hard in the new era because players are such super fans, especially that they, you know, want to one up each other all the time.

[00:12:56] And it's really hard to, to play that to the end.

[00:12:59] Although, you know, people always talk about the read before Tika did it, you know, as well.

[00:13:02] They were just a minority group, but they marched forward together and got it done in a really, really savvy way.

[00:13:07] So I think that we have the group examples in the new era and we have people kind of coming from the bottom.

[00:13:15] And, you know, like emerging, which I think we have kind of a lot of examples of that.

[00:13:19] But yeah, it kind of feeds into this finale and the finale ends up being the final four.

[00:13:23] So what did you think of this as a finale?

[00:13:27] Because when Rachel wins in the first 10 minutes, I was like, I'm getting my tiara for my photo op.

[00:13:32] And for me, it was never in doubt.

[00:13:34] But did you think that there was like a suspense here?

[00:13:37] Like, how did you enjoy this finale?

[00:13:39] No, I think because I think also in terms of just how the season played out, because like you said, used to wear consistency because the edit was so consistent.

[00:13:46] And I think for the most part, up until, you know, there were six people left in the game, I felt like it could have been anybody winning the game.

[00:13:54] There wasn't kind of, oh, it's obvious.

[00:13:56] X, Y, and Z is going to win the game based on the edit or the perception or whatever.

[00:14:01] But I think after they were kind of building up this whole Genevieve and Rachel showdown, which was very good to watch as well.

[00:14:12] Kind of this positive rivalry where it wasn't salty, they were just respectful foes.

[00:14:18] You know, it's like when the All Blacks and Mr. Spinnabergs played each other, they were like, we respect you and you respect us.

[00:14:24] Let's go play the game.

[00:14:26] That was quite good to see.

[00:14:27] But I think after she got out, it was kind of, okay.

[00:14:29] I mean, I struggled to see anybody else winning except Rachel, just from what we've seen up until then.

[00:14:35] I would have been highly surprised.

[00:14:37] And then when we sat down, I told Haley, I said, I think Rachel's going to win 6-2.

[00:14:45] That's my prediction.

[00:14:47] And then she won 7-1.

[00:14:49] So it wasn't kind of all what's going to happen suspense.

[00:14:52] It wasn't maybe the most exciting kind of, oh, gotcha, last episode that we've had.

[00:15:01] But I think the fire making wasn't interesting.

[00:15:03] It was an exciting fire making in the sense that usually, I mean, it's fire making, you make a fire, and then it exponentially grows, right?

[00:15:10] So if you're behind, it's very difficult to make a comeback.

[00:15:15] But, I mean, I think like Tini had like a massive, she was like, her thing was touching the rope before Sam even had like a spark.

[00:15:21] And then somehow he got back into it, which, yeah, which was quite, and I think it shows kind of his personality because she was kind of looking at them asking, what do I do?

[00:15:33] What do I do?

[00:15:34] And Sam was just like, I know what I need to do.

[00:15:35] I just need to do it.

[00:15:37] So it kind of showed kind of a different personalities and the way they played the game.

[00:15:40] And that was quite a, I was really surprised when she lost out on the fire.

[00:15:46] So, I mean, obviously, like I said, I predict 6-2, 7-1.

[00:15:50] So maybe not the most excitement in terms of who's going to win.

[00:15:57] But you touched on it earlier, kind of the whole conversation this finale was, is it better to vote every vote right and know what's going to happen?

[00:16:05] Or is it better to win the immunities?

[00:16:07] Or is it better to have known what's happening, but you didn't ruffle any feathers?

[00:16:10] So I think that's kind of the conversation.

[00:16:12] I think that was a, anything to spend on this finale.

[00:16:16] And I think a lot more positive.

[00:16:17] We've seen a lot of people being very salty, generous in the past, being very like antagonistic, which I didn't get the sense like this season.

[00:16:25] I didn't get that sense from what we saw on the team, that they were super salty about what happened on the, that's what we saw.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:33] But saltiness is interesting to me.

[00:16:34] I mean, I don't want it every, I mean, I think that there's intrigue there.

[00:16:37] I think there's something nice about a really positive jury.

[00:16:38] And I've also spoken about the trauma that finalists go through and how like for our entertainment world, like, yeah, get him.

[00:16:44] And like putting people through years of therapy, which I really struggle with.

[00:16:47] And as horrible as it was, like Maria not voting for Charlie, I think is the most interesting thing that happens in 46.

[00:16:52] And I love 46.

[00:16:53] But it's so interesting.

[00:16:55] Like I could speak for hours just on that one vote.

[00:16:57] And I've read like articles now on the jury.

[00:16:59] Like that's so interesting to me.

[00:17:00] This was positive and straightforward.

[00:17:02] But I also think like the coronation finale that we had, you know, it was good for what it was.

[00:17:07] And I really like, I don't have a lot of complaints in it.

[00:17:09] I thought Rachel was going to win on edit, on game.

[00:17:12] I thought she'd have to lose a challenge and fire when she is the clutch player.

[00:17:18] Like she gets it done.

[00:17:19] I backed her so hard that she would get it done that I clearly recorded my video before the finale aired.

[00:17:24] So that's how good I felt about it.

[00:17:26] Then, you know, once she wins the immunity, I was like, no one is beating her.

[00:17:30] And the argument that she gave at Final Tribal Council, which is like, if you put me out to be the threat, you can't sit next to me.

[00:17:35] It was an unbeatable argument.

[00:17:37] As well as I think Sam did at Final Tribal Council, I was like, there's nothing to say to this.

[00:17:42] What less than a percent of me was a little bit sitting there in front of my TV with my tiara on thinking this would be a really funny photo if Sam's about to win.

[00:17:50] But I did feel that she had it on lock.

[00:17:53] So I don't really have many complaints.

[00:17:55] I think that that coronation edit is fine.

[00:17:57] I just think in a different world, this finale might have been a regular finale where they start at the final five.

[00:18:02] And if Genevieve just gets content in the first three episodes, then we go into the finale thinking Genevieve or Rachel, which is so fitting.

[00:18:08] And then Rachel does win like an hour and a half into that, not 10 minutes.

[00:18:11] And I think that is fine.

[00:18:12] Like, I don't think we need more than that.

[00:18:14] So I definitely, you know, was it the simplest possible finale?

[00:18:18] Like there's very little to talk about just even on like, you know, Rachel's fire decision.

[00:18:22] Cause she can have her cake and eat it.

[00:18:24] Cause she was going to win.

[00:18:24] You know, I was ready to come in and talk about who should put herself into fire.

[00:18:28] You know, if she wins, Teenie should put themselves into fire, like because the jury might like it.

[00:18:33] And I do want to talk about like having a seat at the final table and being heard and giving her something, something to be heard.

[00:18:39] Or like Sam needs to know like who he'd put in against Rachel, which seemingly would have been Teenie as the best fire maker.

[00:18:45] So that would have been interesting because that was about getting Rachel out.

[00:18:48] Once Rachel won, I was like, it is done.

[00:18:50] Um, and I think I don't have many complaints about that because I do think as well, you know, we've, you know, coronation edit for a woman is rarer and good.

[00:19:00] And I think as well, like in terms of the edit, like some of it I felt was very heavy handed in ways, which we can talk about.

[00:19:05] But the narration in this finale is like Rachel and like, and everyone else, you know, but I also think there are still people dismissing her games.

[00:19:16] And her game is quite nuanced. We're going to spend the next couple of hours talking about it, but I think you need to build it up a little bit.

[00:19:22] Like, I think a lot of what Sam was doing, not a lot, but some of it was clearly buried.

[00:19:28] And now, um, like I still, I still back that, you know, like for me, like I'm happy to see what Sam did and still know that I think that Rachel should have won.

[00:19:40] But I think that if they build Sam up because it's so much harder for women to get credit, then more people are just going to be like, well, she didn't deserve to win.

[00:19:46] And she didn't get lucky. So like banging people over the head with it clearly still isn't even enough.

[00:19:50] And it's probably necessary for how hard that is for women.

[00:19:52] So if the edit was kind of pushing that narrative a little bit and hiding Sam a little bit, well, I would like to see it all.

[00:19:59] And would still understand like Rachel's winning game. I don't know that everyone could.

[00:20:03] So I think that the juice is worth the squeeze on that.

[00:20:06] Yeah, no, no, I agree with you.

[00:20:08] And I think I actually like it because I mean, when they were kind of getting ready for this, for the file making tribal, she was like, okay,

[00:20:16] I'm going to cut the bridge. This is what's going to happen. It's going to be you to make the fire. That's it.

[00:20:20] They didn't have any kind of suspense like, hmm, I'll see when I walk into tribal, you know, who I will choose.

[00:20:26] Yeah, it's just like, that's what's going to happen.

[00:20:28] And then I enjoyed that when they asked her about the file making and she said, listen, I've played, I've done everything right.

[00:20:34] I don't have to now go and win fire again. I've already won four immunities.

[00:20:38] I've already used an idle effect if they've already done so much.

[00:20:41] I don't have to do that much more. And I think, I know that's one of the criticisms because Survivor has a bit of recency bias as a player.

[00:20:49] When you're sitting there, you kind of remember the last thing, you know, more prominently.

[00:20:52] And it's kind of this big showdown. If you, you know, you put on the mantle and you walk in, you're like, I'm going to take out the biggest threat.

[00:20:58] And then you win in fire and people are like, oh, wow, what an amazing moment.

[00:21:01] And that's the last memory they have before they go to sleep tonight, before they have to cast their vote.

[00:21:05] So I kind of respected that she said, I've done enough. I don't have to do anything more.

[00:21:10] And this was enough of a game and that she was able to claim it.

[00:21:14] I mean, obviously, final travel lasts for hours. I mean, hours lasted until after midnight.

[00:21:20] It was like, you know, you have no idea how long it is when you're sitting there.

[00:21:24] Obviously, four hours of people talking isn't that exciting.

[00:21:29] Unless it's us doing podcasts.

[00:21:33] But I think it's good that they kind of accepted it, that there was no, you have to do more.

[00:21:39] You know, I think she claimed it. And I think with a due respect that.

[00:21:42] And like you said, it was enough of a game.

[00:21:44] I think the very interesting point that Sam made was saying, I'm the only one who voted correctly every single time.

[00:21:53] Now, that's a good statement. I mean, that's a very impressive statement to make.

[00:21:56] Like to say, you didn't know what's happening half of the time.

[00:21:59] I mean, doesn't mean you played from the top all the time.

[00:22:02] Doesn't mean you had a commanding game.

[00:22:05] But it did mean that he had at least, he knew what was going to happen.

[00:22:08] Maybe he wasn't steering the ship, but he knew that he had a compass in any direction.

[00:22:11] So I'm not saying he should have won.

[00:22:13] I'm just saying it's a very interesting point where you've got, what do you need to win?

[00:22:17] And I think there are like three different approaches these three players had.

[00:22:22] And I think that's a very compelling one saying, I voted correctly every single tribal.

[00:22:27] And it's not a strong enough case, which actually just means how strong of a case Rachel had above and beyond that, which I think kind of solidifies the game.

[00:22:35] Yeah, but I think Sam, and let's talk about Final Tropical Council with that.

[00:22:38] Like he had to overstate his game a little bit because his game, I think, had less to defend than Rachel's, which was more impressive.

[00:22:44] Once she's put out as the threat and she's sitting next to the uphill, she's running downhill.

[00:22:48] It's difficult to do.

[00:22:49] I think he did very well in characterizing his game, but sometimes he had to overstate it.

[00:22:53] Sometimes he said he took control and I don't think he had a lot of control.

[00:22:57] I think he did very well in kind of a different underdog game to Rachel, which he also characterized it as, as like bobbing and weaving and like jumping from like stepping stone to stepping stone in interesting strategic ways.

[00:23:07] Not as much by defending like Rachel did, but look like this person's a shield and jumping onto this plan.

[00:23:12] And as I said for Sam a couple of weeks ago, getting out one threat to kind of buffer around to get further and further, which is what he did.

[00:23:19] But I mean, I appreciate the stats.

[00:23:21] Always got to appreciate a good stat.

[00:23:23] But like Sam's got to know he's like, you know, he's overstating it a little bit.

[00:23:26] Firstly, voting correctly every time, like because he lost his vote at the auction.

[00:23:30] So he would have been out of the Sierra vote, but it's a fun little stat to not be able to say that you, you weren't out.

[00:23:34] Even for like the sole vote, you know, like Rachel's more in on that than Sam, but that was a pile on vote.

[00:23:38] There were a lot of pile on vote.

[00:23:40] So like voting correctly every time.

[00:23:44] I don't.

[00:23:45] And I mean, even like voting correctly every time, like he voted for Rachel and then Andy went home.

[00:23:50] So is that like voting correct correctly every time as well?

[00:23:54] So, yeah, I think that there that that stat was maybe a little overstated, but I don't blame him for.

[00:24:00] Yeah, for using those stats.

[00:24:02] And yet he like he came in prepared.

[00:24:05] And I think that mostly characterized his game very well, but he had to like, you know, work to to get it to try and get it to Rachel's game.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:14] No, I agree.

[00:24:15] I agree with what you're saying.

[00:24:17] And I think.

[00:24:19] It's it's difficult because you also don't know what a jury will value as a player sitting there.

[00:24:24] You might.

[00:24:25] We saw it last season with, you know, Charlie thinking I have such a good relationship.

[00:24:30] And then she didn't even end up voting for him.

[00:24:33] So it's difficult as a jury to understand what's kind of a right pitch.

[00:24:37] But that being said, I don't think this is one of us.

[00:24:40] I think most of the people knew who they were going to vote for coming in.

[00:24:44] I don't think.

[00:24:46] I don't know if it was an answer in express.

[00:24:48] Jeff usually asks the question, if this and this happened, would you have voted differently?

[00:24:52] We didn't see that in this show.

[00:24:54] So I think most people coming came in knowing who they would want to vote for.

[00:24:59] So I don't think it was that kind of, you know, making the case.

[00:25:05] But I always find that.

[00:25:08] From my experience and talking to the players who played Survivor, you kind of unless it's something drastic, you kind of vote for the person you like the most.

[00:25:17] Because we're humans, you know, unless something drastic happens.

[00:25:22] So, yeah, I think it's good.

[00:25:25] I feel a bit sad for Sue as well.

[00:25:27] I think a lot of times you have these people who just kind of get subtracted in.

[00:25:32] I think she could have done more, but I also think that she didn't play that bad a game.

[00:25:37] She was in on a lot of the things.

[00:25:39] She knew what was happening.

[00:25:40] It's always bad if it's the final film.

[00:25:42] Most likely somebody's going to get zero votes.

[00:25:44] But I felt like it's not like Australian Survivor.

[00:25:47] We are just like one of these two people who just get dragged to the end of it.

[00:25:50] Like no agency in the game at all.

[00:25:52] I think Sue did at least, you know, she had good connections.

[00:25:56] She didn't know what was going on most of the time.

[00:26:00] So I'm just wondering if it's like a case she could have made to kind of at least get a vote or two.

[00:26:05] Or maybe if, well, I'm curious to see your thoughts coming in if that's like six people at the game.

[00:26:09] If there's a way or something that she could, I guess I have an opinion.

[00:26:14] I would like to hear yours first.

[00:26:16] If there's something she could have done to maybe put a better claiming at the end.

[00:26:20] Well, firstly, I have to correct myself.

[00:26:22] He didn't vote for Andy, right?

[00:26:23] Rachel blocked his vote.

[00:26:25] So to be fair, the two times he would have been out of the vote.

[00:26:27] He lost his vote because this is a new era, which is so classic.

[00:26:30] That doesn't count as a stat of being, we're voting right every time.

[00:26:33] I appreciate you being cute about it, Sam.

[00:26:36] But okay, if you lose your vote twice, then you would have voted incorrectly and been blindsided.

[00:26:41] I feel like for me, I'm like, it's not like an authentic.

[00:26:44] Andy said that he doesn't like incorrect stats.

[00:26:47] I feel like he wouldn't have vibed on Andy's way.

[00:26:50] Did we ever see how that advantage works?

[00:26:53] Did she have to play it, like give it to a producer before they walk into the title?

[00:26:57] Yeah, she gave it before and said Sam.

[00:26:58] And then he gets to the booth and it says that he.

[00:27:00] Yeah, but I can't remember if it was like, I didn't like it was a screenshot of the parchment.

[00:27:04] But I'm going to assume that's how it would work.

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:07] We never saw kind of her like, hey, Mr. Producer, I'm cashing in my check.

[00:27:12] That is, yeah, that's what, so his vote was blocked.

[00:27:14] So I feel like, but again, like they all had wins and losses over each other.

[00:27:17] That's why it's again, it's a difficult game for Sam to defend because he can't say like,

[00:27:20] yeah, like she got blindsided three times, but he would have been out twice.

[00:27:23] Like she bested him, he bested her.

[00:27:24] That's what makes this like dynamic so interesting.

[00:27:26] And she has all the other flashy stuff and she was the big threat.

[00:27:29] Like I can't say that there was a big disparity in the fact that like a little bit, but I can't

[00:27:34] say he was like that much more in the know than her.

[00:27:35] And I feel like she had more control again, like at the sole vote, he's not in that really.

[00:27:40] She's bringing him into that.

[00:27:41] You know, there's some, there's some stuff around that in the Kyle vote.

[00:27:43] He's very out of that.

[00:27:44] Like, I can't say that he's controlling things a lot more than her.

[00:27:47] I understand why he's saying it.

[00:27:49] I'm just saying, I see you with your stats, Sam.

[00:27:50] Okay.

[00:27:51] So let's just talk about what, you know, voting correctly is in terms of Sue.

[00:27:54] And then we'll get to the main kind of two as the, as they were deemed in the Spinal

[00:27:59] Tribal Council.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] A couple of things.

[00:28:03] Firstly, I think what's really important is like people are like, if I just get to

[00:28:05] them, I can state my case.

[00:28:06] And Sue obviously thought that the age thing would be like a big game changer.

[00:28:10] I'm sure about loyalty, maybe get some relationship votes.

[00:28:12] But I think what we're seeing is like one person especially will be left out.

[00:28:16] Like we talk about goats, but like one person is going to be like the zero vote finalist.

[00:28:19] It's really, really hard for people to even get a vote usually in the years, like one

[00:28:23] vote at least.

[00:28:24] Like no one's ever gotten more than one vote as the lowest vote getter in a final three

[00:28:28] in US and Australia in South Africa.

[00:28:30] But we did have a plurality in South Africa.

[00:28:32] But yeah, it's really hard to get even a vote.

[00:28:35] So that zero vote finalist might not even get a chance to talk.

[00:28:38] I saw a zero vote finalist, like, you know, Owen was tweeting about like Sue even getting

[00:28:41] the chance to speak.

[00:28:42] And I think that like you can't just get to the end.

[00:28:44] You have to get to the end with something to speak about so that you don't just have a

[00:28:48] seat at the table, but you are speaking at the table.

[00:28:50] And that's my thing with Sue is it was quite a conservative game.

[00:28:54] Like even like, oh, I'm not putting, I don't want to ask even be put into fire against Sam.

[00:28:57] Like why?

[00:28:57] You have the big Sam moment.

[00:28:59] You have nothing to lose.

[00:29:00] And I think that was like fire making.

[00:29:02] What I wanted to see as a decision is just self-awareness.

[00:29:04] For Rachel, the self-awareness to know, like, I don't need to pander to that.

[00:29:07] I have more than enough and I don't need to put myself at risk.

[00:29:09] Great.

[00:29:09] You know yourself.

[00:29:10] You know your game.

[00:29:11] For Sam, it should have been, I just need to get Rachel out.

[00:29:12] Who's best at fire?

[00:29:13] Is it me?

[00:29:15] Didn't seem to be.

[00:29:15] But if it was, put yourself in.

[00:29:16] If it's not, put teeny in, you know, and for teeny and Sue, I would have liked to see,

[00:29:20] I need a big moment.

[00:29:21] I'm putting myself in.

[00:29:22] And for Sue to not even ask Rachel and to be like, I'm good.

[00:29:25] That to me shows kind of a lack of understanding of what the jury would value.

[00:29:28] And the other thing that I think for Sue, that is crazy to me, I don't know if she said

[00:29:32] it in final tribal, but she's definitely said it in the interviews.

[00:29:34] She was the one, she says, who told Rachel to vote on Andy over Sam.

[00:29:39] Now I was leaning to kind of Sam from a, from a, you know, challenge perspective

[00:29:44] for Rachel, but I saw Andy, you know, maybe Rachel doesn't want to sit next to Andy because

[00:29:48] he's bested her three times and he actually did have a good voting record.

[00:29:52] No caveats other than maybe John.

[00:29:55] So I saw that for her, but like, it was a tweener for me.

[00:29:57] For Sue to push Andy, like Sue's best path is the hope of going with teeny and Andy and

[00:30:03] it'll be people disrespect teeny enough and that people hate Andy enough.

[00:30:06] I think at the point where she's pushed Andy just from a pure emotional standpoint.

[00:30:09] And maybe this is like, again, like the issue with her game.

[00:30:11] Cause it was a big Kyle thing at the point where she's done that.

[00:30:14] That's like a game losing move for me.

[00:30:15] So that's like terrible.

[00:30:16] And I probably would have factored that into chizzy points last week.

[00:30:19] Had I known she, I mean, I think her game, she did her game and to just like, it was

[00:30:23] a loyalty game, but it emboldened Rachel, you know, even like thinking through and I was

[00:30:27] thinking last week, you know, about Rachel's advantage game and she had the idol and she

[00:30:32] had the vote block to split.

[00:30:33] And even if she couldn't, even if they could split like Sue was immune, you know, like the two

[00:30:37] of them had it locked up as a minority, three advantages between the two of them, but for

[00:30:42] Rachel to emboldened Rachel.

[00:30:44] And I would just like Sue to do something to, to get a voice at Final Trauma Council.

[00:30:48] I want to, I want to mention two things, which I, which adds on to what you're saying.

[00:30:52] Firstly, we were just saying about nobody's picking any scam.

[00:30:55] It was kind of like the, the, the cooler Dural in this season where he was kind of flip

[00:31:01] flopping and just blowing up everybody.

[00:31:03] Morality vote.

[00:31:05] And just blowing up other people's games for the sake of, but at least I think he kind

[00:31:10] of hadn't, he kind of, he, he envisioned that as his way to the end, which I suspect

[00:31:16] more than some of the other things that happened.

[00:31:20] But I think in terms of Sue, what I think was really good, or I think what she could potentially

[00:31:26] have done.

[00:31:27] And this is something I always struggle with is I know people complain about the

[00:31:31] for answers in the game and this and what, whatever, but she got her idol, the, the

[00:31:36] court red handed idol.

[00:31:38] The Lady Macbeth.

[00:31:39] Like very long.

[00:31:40] Sorry?

[00:31:40] The Lady Macbeth idol, out damn spot.

[00:31:43] That's how I like to refer to it.

[00:31:44] Yeah.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] I mean, she got a pre-merge, right?

[00:31:46] And then whether you tell people or not, I mean that that's a different conversation,

[00:31:51] but she had this idol the whole game, pre-merge, merge up until the end.

[00:31:57] And then you kind of, it reminded me a bit about, I think it was Trojan in Game Changers

[00:32:03] where it's Final Five and he's like, oh, I got this idol like super early in the game.

[00:32:07] Bang, I'm going to play it.

[00:32:07] And then like you negate no votes and you haven't done anything with it.

[00:32:10] And people are afterwards like, okay, you know, what did you do?

[00:32:13] I think, and this is the thing about Survivor, some people play with advantages,

[00:32:17] some people play without it.

[00:32:18] You can win both ways.

[00:32:20] It's been shown repeatedly.

[00:32:21] But I think if you have something like that and things start becoming a bit messy

[00:32:24] or you need to make a move or something, you see, I don't have that much agency in the game.

[00:32:30] I think then saying, okay, this is opportunity.

[00:32:33] We can do an Operation Brazil or an Operation Phoenix, whatever you want to call it.

[00:32:38] Yeah, you should always just be named after different countries.

[00:32:41] Yeah.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:43] Try and make a play and try and at least do something.

[00:32:47] Not for the sake of pulling up a CV or whatever, but saying, okay, I have this tool I can use

[00:32:52] to change the direction of this game instead of having it until Final Five, using it, blocking

[00:32:59] no votes.

[00:32:59] And that's not impressive.

[00:33:01] If you do, I think, I mean, Marianne showed the opposite.

[00:33:05] She showed right.

[00:33:05] You can get to the end.

[00:33:06] And so I had this idol nobody knew about.

[00:33:08] I didn't even have to use it because my game was that good.

[00:33:11] But then you need to play a game.

[00:33:13] We get into that position where you can say, I don't have to use it.

[00:33:15] And I think that's kind of the one drawback for Sue is I think she had to ammunition to

[00:33:22] kind of make a move.

[00:33:24] I'm just sad that she didn't kind of do something with it three or four rounds earlier to kind

[00:33:29] of take control of the game or at least show that she was a player in the game and not

[00:33:33] just cruising along.

[00:33:35] Well, ammunition is nothing without awareness.

[00:33:36] And in the Kyle vote, I think it was, I said, Sue and Andy have been described as goats.

[00:33:41] They both need to do it.

[00:33:41] I said, pow, pow.

[00:33:43] They need to pow, pow, which is just do anything.

[00:33:45] Like you're a zero vote finalist.

[00:33:47] They're not even going to listen to you at Final Trouble Council if you stood there with

[00:33:50] this game right now.

[00:33:51] So you need to do something.

[00:33:52] And then immediately Andy did.

[00:33:53] He knew that perception and he 3-2-2'd and it was awesome.

[00:33:55] And I will always back it.

[00:33:57] Always, always back it.

[00:33:58] Even if it hadn't gone well before it went poorly.

[00:33:59] Even if it had just gone poorly, it would have been right.

[00:34:01] And because we see what happened to Sue.

[00:34:03] Sue doesn't even get to talk at Final Trouble Council.

[00:34:04] That's Andy's other path.

[00:34:06] And Sue didn't know that that was what she needed to do.

[00:34:09] And that lack of awareness, like you can't play with that.

[00:34:11] You're misreading the whole jury, which is such a crucial part of the game.

[00:34:14] She has doing anything, especially because she has an idol, as you say, was I think essential

[00:34:19] just to like upset the apple cart in any way to have something to speak to.

[00:34:22] And once you have something to speak to, hopefully they focus a little on you and now they're

[00:34:25] listening.

[00:34:25] You know, you need to get their attention.

[00:34:26] It's like, hey, I just did this.

[00:34:28] Now that I have your attention, I'm also 59.

[00:34:31] You know, like they first have to be listening to you.

[00:34:33] And I think Sue has really shown that.

[00:34:34] And I just, anyone who could, it's so hard, but anyone who has the awareness to be like,

[00:34:38] I'm a goat.

[00:34:39] Just, just, it's like, it's like being like, no, like being asleep and knowing you're awake.

[00:34:43] You know, like when you have dreams where you, and you can just do anything.

[00:34:46] That's like, it's like, I can do any, like pow, pow, you know, anything playing with house

[00:34:50] money at that point.

[00:34:50] So, or lack of house money.

[00:34:52] So I wish Sue had done that, but yeah, to talk about, um, let's talk about it.

[00:34:58] Sam and Rachel, this, this top twos for this, you know, first and second interesting battle

[00:35:04] of final travel council.

[00:35:05] And they talked a lot about, you know, their games.

[00:35:08] And I, and I want to talk through that as well.

[00:35:10] I think they were both really interestingly against type, which was so fun.

[00:35:13] It was one of my favorite parts of the finale.

[00:35:15] It was like, Sam was like, I had to scrap and I'm the under.

[00:35:18] And she was like, I came in as this big physical threat.

[00:35:20] And they're like, did you body swap?

[00:35:21] Like, this isn't what we would expect.

[00:35:22] Imagine saying preseason that they as a final two are doing that.

[00:35:26] No one would guess.

[00:35:27] And that is our, you know, misperceptions.

[00:35:29] I think I've underestimated Sam a lot, you know, like he was saying in exit interviews

[00:35:34] or even before I read an interview with him before the finale with Dalton, who had sat

[00:35:39] down with the final four.

[00:35:40] And Sam was saying that he'd already come up with Operation Italy as Andy had, and they

[00:35:43] kind of brought it together.

[00:35:44] That was a big part of taking Andy on reward.

[00:35:46] You know, I was like, he could never have come up with that because I'm wrong.

[00:35:49] Yeah.

[00:35:49] I was, I underestimated him.

[00:35:50] I was biased on that.

[00:35:51] I had, I had a misperception.

[00:35:53] And, and as well, last week I was like, why does anyone want to get rid of Jen?

[00:35:56] Like he has to, but does he want to?

[00:35:57] He did.

[00:35:57] Like he was very intentionally using the Genevieve shield.

[00:36:00] He had so much awareness to him.

[00:36:01] Um, you know, he had a, he had an Andy shield possibility as well that maybe even kind of

[00:36:06] came to fruition.

[00:36:07] So I think he was managing that really, really well.

[00:36:10] And I was underestimating him and someone shown because he's going to lose to Rachel and

[00:36:14] we can't have people even more being like, he was robbed.

[00:36:17] Um, which we, you know, we can talk about.

[00:36:19] So yeah, I mean, I think Sam's game is great, but I just think Rachel, Rachel's game was better.

[00:36:26] And like, if, if the thing that Sam didn't do was achieve getting her out at final four.

[00:36:30] And if he does that, he's a solid winner too.

[00:36:33] But like, how do you see their two games and how they advocated for it at final travel council?

[00:36:38] I think two things about Sam, I want to mention the first thing is, uh, he, I mean, I think

[00:36:42] he said it, he said he sucks at winning communities, but he's great at winning rewards, something

[00:36:46] like that.

[00:36:47] Um, I mean, he won a couple of rewards, right?

[00:36:49] We, he, yeah.

[00:36:50] He won operation Italy.

[00:36:52] Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:52] So it's always weird where, I mean, it's a coin flip.

[00:36:57] It happened in our season when I was in, uh, after the swap on that long, I tried, I think

[00:37:01] we won two or three rewards, but we lost every immunity challenge.

[00:37:04] So it's such a, I mean, such a coin flip in terms of what, what the challenge is for

[00:37:08] the award versus the one for immunity.

[00:37:10] I mean, whatever.

[00:37:11] Um, so then people are like, Oh, you're a bunch of losers.

[00:37:14] Like how we are, but also not, we actually win some things.

[00:37:18] We just lost the wrong ones, you know?

[00:37:20] So, um, not discrediting that she won four, uh, immunities, which is like a new record

[00:37:25] joining, um, you know, the, she's like now the fifth woman won four rewards, right?

[00:37:30] Um, before immunities.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:32] Cause yeah.

[00:37:32] Kelly, Jenna, Chrissy and Kim.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:36] That's quite cool.

[00:37:36] That's quite cool.

[00:37:37] I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's mega.

[00:37:38] So in that regard, I think, um, you know, Sam, he did want some things.

[00:37:43] It's just like he was absent to use this, uh, and challenges.

[00:37:48] I think what, what cost him.

[00:37:49] And that's one of those things that's very difficult in survivor because you don't know

[00:37:52] what it is, but I know Ty always says there's one challenge you lose.

[00:37:56] It's the family visit.

[00:37:57] Um, and you won the challenge.

[00:38:00] And then afterwards it's like, Oh, by the way, there's letters from home.

[00:38:03] Yeah.

[00:38:03] And then you're in that horrible position because he could take three people and then

[00:38:07] four people couldn't get to let this, I believe.

[00:38:10] Um, so you have like more, the majority of the people are going to be angry with you

[00:38:15] because it's not just food, it's, you've taken away the, you know, the loved ones or

[00:38:19] whatever.

[00:38:20] Um, and, and it's because we're humans.

[00:38:24] I count.

[00:38:25] If you think about mathematically, you're like, he did his best.

[00:38:27] He won the challenge.

[00:38:28] You got the food.

[00:38:28] This is just something that gets a bonus.

[00:38:31] But in terms of the reactions that people had, I think Carolyn of Kenny was specific

[00:38:35] like, Oh, I, he took away my letter from home.

[00:38:38] And it's, it's actually such a, I mean, that's part of the game, you know, putting people in

[00:38:43] that difficult position, like what do you want to do?

[00:38:45] Um, but I think that kind of finally lost him.

[00:38:49] Even if he gets to the end, there were so many people who were like, Oh, Sam is such

[00:38:52] a bad guy because he took away my letter.

[00:38:55] And I think that like the last sliver of hope he had, I mean, heavy is the crown for

[00:39:01] the person who have to make that decision.

[00:39:03] Um, that's the design of a game, but I think so many people.

[00:39:06] And tight.

[00:39:08] Oh, yeah, it is.

[00:39:08] I mean, yeah.

[00:39:10] Yeah.

[00:39:12] Um, and then I lost my train of thought now.

[00:39:16] Um, what was I saying?

[00:39:18] Oh, yeah.

[00:39:19] Heavy, but there's still a reward.

[00:39:20] My bad.

[00:39:21] Heavy is the bang in the crown.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Um, and I think like there were just so many people that got, uh, was not impressed

[00:39:29] by what he did then.

[00:39:30] And I think that kind of was not say the final nail of the coffin, but I think then you

[00:39:33] get into a very slippery slope to get back into position week.

[00:39:36] And when the game, if like those score four people on, and then obviously if I tell the

[00:39:41] jury how bad you are, et cetera.

[00:39:43] And then I think that's just the difficult position he was really, um, I don't think,

[00:39:46] I don't think that was the issue with Sam.

[00:39:47] Like, I think Sam was well, well, I think Sam firstly, he's a young guy.

[00:39:50] He's got a great head on his shoulders.

[00:39:51] Like people want to project a lot onto Sam that is just not there.

[00:39:56] Like the way he's talked in X interviews by giving a teeny a lot of grace for teeny,

[00:39:59] you know, not reacting well to Sam.

[00:40:02] Um, I think it is amazing the way people are like, he's undercutting her at tribal council,

[00:40:07] at final tribal council.

[00:40:07] He's making snarky, like facial reactions.

[00:40:10] Like firstly, like that could be at any time.

[00:40:12] We don't even know what that's to because it's an edit, but also like, he should be doing

[00:40:16] all of that.

[00:40:17] Like, this is war.

[00:40:18] Like what should he just like lay down and die?

[00:40:20] Like, of course it's a debate.

[00:40:21] Like, and I thought it was enthralling.

[00:40:23] I thought they were both so self-aware.

[00:40:24] It spoke to, you know, how much they know each other's games, that they had good rebuttals

[00:40:28] for each other.

[00:40:28] I think Sam was even, um, a little better than Rachel.

[00:40:31] And I wondered if that was the edit to make it look close after, you know, hiding Sam

[00:40:35] a little bit through the season, but now, and now it needs to feel close.

[00:40:37] But I do think based on X interviews that it seems like Sam kind of did come away winning

[00:40:42] final tribal council.

[00:40:43] It was just, he had way more of a gap in an un like kind of,

[00:40:46] breakable gap to get to the fact that Rachel had been the threat.

[00:40:50] And from a likability standpoint, like, I think that that was there, you know, I think he

[00:40:54] had closer relationships who voted for Rachel on just being purely impressed with her.

[00:40:59] This was like a gameplay vote, you know, talk about like, who you like more.

[00:41:02] My thing has always been, I don't know who you like more, but I think that you pretty

[00:41:08] much vote for someone you like.

[00:41:09] So you have to, if you like two people now, let's look at gameplay.

[00:41:11] Maybe, maybe, maybe you still go with the person you like, but I think you are open.

[00:41:15] Like Genevieve was way closer with Sam, but she respected Rachel.

[00:41:18] Sierra I was surprised about, but maybe, you know, that speaks to her relationship

[00:41:22] with Rachel, even pre-emerged in that positioning that she had a relationship with both and

[00:41:26] she was struggling.

[00:41:26] Like, you know, we talk about the, the letters reward.

[00:41:30] He took Genevieve and Andy, neither of them voted for him.

[00:41:32] So I don't think it's a social thing.

[00:41:34] I just think that there wasn't enough on his game.

[00:41:37] Like, I just, I think it was kind of over before it began.

[00:41:40] And I think he did as well as he possibly could, but this was not enough there.

[00:41:42] Like he's, he's talking about his game.

[00:41:44] I've used the quotes.

[00:41:46] He said, well-rounded, which I think is fair.

[00:41:48] But so Rachel's, I think was also well-rounded.

[00:41:51] They both had some strategic gaps, but are clearly smart strategic players.

[00:41:54] They're both physical players, but Rachel has more of that.

[00:41:57] They're both well-liked, adaptable.

[00:42:00] Also Rachel, unfortunately, but true.

[00:42:02] He's adapted in different ways, dynamic and creative.

[00:42:04] And I don't think that's untrue too.

[00:42:06] So I think he characterized his game.

[00:42:08] Well, I just think, you know, to talk a little bit about control was just an overstatement.

[00:42:12] But mostly my issue is that it just wasn't there compared to Rachel for me.

[00:42:17] And I think it's a game thing more than it's a social thing.

[00:42:19] I think they both were liked by people.

[00:42:23] Yeah, no, it is.

[00:42:24] And I think I was also surprised that, that Sierra didn't vote for him.

[00:42:30] I was expecting her to vote for him.

[00:42:32] But like you say, I mean that, and maybe that just shows, you know, obviously there's a lot of things we don't see,

[00:42:36] but that just shows relationships Rachel had.

[00:42:38] Because a lot of the time you get to the end and you get to the end and it's kind of, I burned you, you know,

[00:42:44] you came for me and then I got you.

[00:42:46] And I think Rachel was very, she wasn't, because a lot of people, a lot of times there's this question from a jury,

[00:42:52] like why did you vote out me?

[00:42:54] Why did I vote out me?

[00:42:56] And then that's why I always like the quote that Tony said in one of his words.

[00:42:59] It's like, that's the game, you know, we come in here, we have to walk up there,

[00:43:03] we have to write down a name, Jeff reads the vote and the person goes out.

[00:43:05] That's how the game works.

[00:43:06] We're not doing anything wrong.

[00:43:08] But I think Rachel did in such a way that she didn't antagonize a lot of people.

[00:43:13] She didn't create this, I mean, she and Genevieve had this well-respected rivalry,

[00:43:17] but there wasn't any votes of like, ah, I just hate the person.

[00:43:21] I want to get them out of a game.

[00:43:22] You know, I can't stand them.

[00:43:24] If they do X, Y, and Z, another day I'll go crazy.

[00:43:26] I just have to get rid of them.

[00:43:27] I think she played in such a way that the people in the jury don't think, oh, Rachel,

[00:43:33] you know, was such, so villainous to me or so antagonistic.

[00:43:36] She did it in a way that you can stand there and say, well, I tried to get you out.

[00:43:41] I couldn't.

[00:43:41] You bested me.

[00:43:43] And we tried to get you out.

[00:43:44] And then you won four immunities.

[00:43:45] And on top of that, you know, you were a likable person.

[00:43:48] So here's a check.

[00:43:49] I think that's, if you want to win Survivor, that's the way to do it.

[00:43:53] Right?

[00:43:53] That's kind of the, if you can get people out in a way that they don't despise you,

[00:43:58] then you have a lot better chance of winning the game than, you know, doing the Russell

[00:44:02] Han style.

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:03] Well, let's talk about that.

[00:44:04] The way to play, the way to win.

[00:44:06] Because Rachel plays on this defensive game.

[00:44:08] And that's, you know, and I had any kind of criticism of her final tribal council.

[00:44:14] I think that she was kind of overwhelmed by how well Sam was doing.

[00:44:16] A little bit.

[00:44:17] I still think she was great.

[00:44:18] I also think it was a little one note.

[00:44:19] A lot of like the idle, a lot of like the big flashy moves.

[00:44:22] We expected a little bit about like the shot in the dark, which she's confirmed.

[00:44:25] She didn't think to say.

[00:44:25] She didn't realize how much Twitter would love it, that it was worth kind of talking

[00:44:29] about.

[00:44:30] And so it was a little one note.

[00:44:31] And I do think as well, that fed into the narrative we got for her.

[00:44:34] I think her edit was a little bit one note.

[00:44:36] I would have liked to see these other elements that I've heard about her game.

[00:44:38] She's saying now that Sue and Caroline have been, were allies of hers after the Sierra

[00:44:44] vote.

[00:44:45] So something like that.

[00:44:46] I would have loved to see because that kind of goes away from the like purely like

[00:44:50] mechanisms, fighter, like that's like the social components that she did have,

[00:44:55] especially through the mid merge.

[00:44:56] She had these relationships through even like the sole vote, Gabe, Kyle.

[00:45:00] Those were some of those, those bigger votes where she was like in the numbers.

[00:45:03] She had the numbers even when, when Caroline went home.

[00:45:06] So I would have liked to see more of that.

[00:45:09] I feel like she said it a little bit as well.

[00:45:11] She talked about like the underdog five and the way she'd had those social outs.

[00:45:14] I would have liked to have seen even more of that.

[00:45:16] Something I loved about her game that we didn't see in the edit was the way that she like

[00:45:20] hugely blackmailed Andy at operation Italy or after operation Italy.

[00:45:24] When, when Andy went home to be like, Sue and I will never vote for you if you lie to

[00:45:28] me again.

[00:45:28] And that was to try and control him.

[00:45:30] And when that didn't work, it gave her information.

[00:45:31] I love that, but the edit couldn't show it.

[00:45:33] And I get it because she'd be demonized because it's hard out there for women.

[00:45:36] And I want to see that because I think it's bad-ass.

[00:45:38] And I know that that's not, doesn't make her a bad person.

[00:45:40] It's just a great move.

[00:45:41] So parts of that are what I love about her game, but I feel like in the edit and in

[00:45:45] of what, at least what we saw and what seemed to be of the final tribal council, it was kind

[00:45:49] of a lot on this fighter narrative, which we will talk about at Lens now, I'm sure.

[00:45:54] But yeah, I feel like that was kind of where we were at with that.

[00:45:58] I think that's kind of, I think that's kind of the, the, the difference between, you know,

[00:46:03] the way Rachel played and potentially Sue, you know, it's when you look at Sue and Kyle,

[00:46:10] you know, they were so over each other and kind of back and forth.

[00:46:16] And Rachel only had that one rivalry with, with Genevieve, which is, like I said, was

[00:46:19] a well-respected rivalry.

[00:46:21] And then from that to kind of get to that position where you can still say you're the

[00:46:28] underdog.

[00:46:29] Right.

[00:46:29] And I think that's kind of, like you said, it's, it's a story about the two underdogs.

[00:46:32] It's, it's Sam's the one underdog where it has to kind of fight out and then she's

[00:46:36] the underdog.

[00:46:36] But I think what's different is, yes, she won the challenges, which was good, but she

[00:46:41] also made kind of key social connections at the right time with the right people.

[00:46:46] And I think that was, that, that, that was a saving grace.

[00:46:49] And then in addition, the, you know, the, the night, night camo leopard crawling thing

[00:46:57] and, and, and spying on them and realizing, okay, they're coming for getting their intel

[00:47:01] and kind of cross-checking that to what people are saying, like, okay, now some people

[00:47:04] lied to me.

[00:47:05] Now I know what's happening.

[00:47:07] That just shows you it's, it's, it's not just about having information, but you have

[00:47:11] to actually go and get the information.

[00:47:13] Right.

[00:47:13] So she didn't just sit at, sitting at a shelter and kind of, you know, play the game in her

[00:47:18] head.

[00:47:18] Like I think Andy was sometimes just in his head, kind of thinking of these master plans

[00:47:22] instead of talking to people and getting, and getting them to, to, to connect with them.

[00:47:26] I think she did a good job of winning when she needed to win, doing what you need to do,

[00:47:31] get the information, using the advantages in the right way.

[00:47:35] Exactly.

[00:47:36] I mean, you mentioned the shot in the dark, she, she lost it.

[00:47:38] And then she, she didn't have a shot in the dark anymore.

[00:47:42] And then in the end, just being likable.

[00:47:45] I think it's like a ticking over right boxes.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Well, I mean, I think that it does, obviously, I think that's why I call her a well-rounded

[00:47:53] player, even though there are, you know, you know, some strategic gaps.

[00:47:56] I think that if I were to kind of, you know, look at her game, I think the one hole, which

[00:48:00] she kind of spoke about, well, she's spoken about a couple.

[00:48:02] I think that she spoke about in Final Tribal Council that influence was tough.

[00:48:05] I don't think the social game was tough, but I will say, yeah, she, she struggled to get

[00:48:08] people to kind of do her bidding as much.

[00:48:10] And I don't know if that was this kind of cast and where she was at socially, or if

[00:48:13] that's, you know, her as a player.

[00:48:15] But I think that that, you know, was kind of a low number compared to all the other skills

[00:48:20] that she had.

[00:48:21] She also spoke about not being able to really predict people when they played sub-optimally.

[00:48:25] Like she didn't think that, well, I don't think it was sub-optimally.

[00:48:27] I think that that like Andy's move, you know, I thought that was a great move.

[00:48:31] She, she didn't see Operation Italy as a good move for him.

[00:48:34] But even within that, I always remember Richard Hatch talking about how hard it is for like

[00:48:39] players who see things so logically to try and like see things from like other, maybe

[00:48:43] more chaotic points of view.

[00:48:45] So I think that that, that is something that probably a lot of like really logical players

[00:48:49] might, might suffer from just broadly as much as I back Operation Italy.

[00:48:53] But yeah, I mean, look, let's talk about the, the Mike and Ben of it all because that's been

[00:48:57] the comparison.

[00:48:58] It's been such a highly debated comparison.

[00:49:00] And then Andy brought it up because Andy is online apparently in the past and knows

[00:49:06] what we're going to talk about.

[00:49:07] And it was like, they are not well-regarded.

[00:49:08] And it's so interesting to see the way that even the fans are reacting to this now, because

[00:49:11] even now they're like, it's sexist to compare to Mike and Ben.

[00:49:15] And it's like, but she agreed that, you know, that she's in that mold.

[00:49:19] And I think that there's so many things here about like kind of fans not wanting to reckon

[00:49:24] with themselves.

[00:49:25] Like, I think it's actually less about Rachel and Rachel's game.

[00:49:28] And I think it's more about fans don't want to have to reckon with themselves.

[00:49:30] Or why did I hate that?

[00:49:31] And why did I, why do I like this?

[00:49:33] When like, it's totally fine to subjectively like one character more who's doing something

[00:49:37] compared to, you know, other characters that you subjectively don't like more.

[00:49:41] But yeah, when it feeds into your analysis and you see one thing is really good and one

[00:49:45] thing is really bad, then yeah, maybe look at that because that, that is a bias.

[00:49:49] But in saying that as well, those games can be very differently ranked, you know, Rachel.

[00:49:55] And I think did that game style.

[00:49:56] We talked about it last week, like the best.

[00:49:57] I think she definitely finished it off the best.

[00:49:59] We can talk about those comparisons, but that doesn't mean she's ranked the same as like

[00:50:03] a Ben and a Mike.

[00:50:04] Like, I think the bias is people who hate that game style all the time and thought that

[00:50:07] they did or said that they did.

[00:50:09] And now like it just unpack that.

[00:50:11] Then maybe you just didn't like those characters and that like, maybe character means more to

[00:50:14] you than game style.

[00:50:16] Because I do think usually the super fans don't love the advantage heavy and the challenge

[00:50:20] heavy game styles and they like it now.

[00:50:22] So I think unpack that for your own subjective preferences.

[00:50:26] But yeah, on game, I think you can still say, I thought she was better.

[00:50:31] You know, I think she did these things better than Ben and Mike and we'll compare those

[00:50:33] games.

[00:50:34] But I don't think that those things, I don't think it's insulting to compare it to Ben and

[00:50:37] Mike.

[00:50:38] I think she does it.

[00:50:39] I think she's so aware of herself.

[00:50:40] I think that that's all very fair and it's still really impressive.

[00:50:43] And you can like one and not the other.

[00:50:45] Just like kind of be honest about where those preferences are and like where the analysis

[00:50:48] lies for me.

[00:50:50] Oh man, it wouldn't be a podcast we do if we don't complain about, or I at least complain

[00:50:54] about social media and people being negative online.

[00:50:57] It's at an all time high.

[00:50:58] Well, not really.

[00:50:59] Things have been worse, but.

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:03] Yeah.

[00:51:03] I, I have a hate hate, not a love hate.

[00:51:06] I have a hate hate relationship with social media because I can like coffee and you can

[00:51:10] like tea.

[00:51:11] And that doesn't mean we have to be at, at fighting lens.

[00:51:15] And I have to tell you every single time you drink tea that I have to tell you that you

[00:51:19] are such a bad person.

[00:51:20] I will never drink tea.

[00:51:22] I'm also one of those people.

[00:51:23] I don't know if it's an Africa thing or it's a me thing or it's a way I was brought up or

[00:51:27] it's my personality.

[00:51:28] I don't know, but I'm one of those people who feel like if you don't, if you don't agree

[00:51:32] with some, somebody, you don't have to tell them that you can just keep that information

[00:51:36] to yourself.

[00:51:36] It doesn't, you don't have to tell them and you'd have to be antagonistic with them.

[00:51:40] Um, and yeah, anyway, um, but bring it back to your, your point about, uh, about, uh,

[00:51:48] comparing it to other winners, uh, who that's not as highly rated.

[00:51:51] I think Jeff said it best when he said, you know, she, she's now the fifth woman to have

[00:51:55] won four immunity challenges.

[00:51:57] The two of them didn't win the game.

[00:51:59] Um, so just winning out, um, sometimes it wins you the game and sometimes it doesn't

[00:52:06] win you the game.

[00:52:08] And I, I don't like it when people are just putting in a box for a reason, like you did

[00:52:16] nothing wrong.

[00:52:17] Um, and, and, and like you said, she brought it up.

[00:52:20] She's the one who said, listen, um, you know, and, and, and, and Andy brought it up as well.

[00:52:25] Um, I think, I think that in a season it's always unique and the people will vote whoever

[00:52:35] they want to vote for.

[00:52:37] And as the audience, you weren't there.

[00:52:40] So the 18 or 21 people or whatever, who was there, they played the game and then they decided

[00:52:45] to win it.

[00:52:45] And then that is what it is.

[00:52:46] You can't go to actively say, Oh, I think they made a mistake.

[00:52:49] They did what they thought were right with the information they had.

[00:52:53] And I just wrote, wrote a very extensive article about how, like, I feel we can criticize.

[00:52:57] I mean, we criticize everything, right?

[00:52:58] Like that's my, um, my job.

[00:53:01] Right.

[00:53:01] And I, and I don't, I think what I've, what I said in the article was like, and I'm not

[00:53:04] criticizing these jurors.

[00:53:06] I'm not, I'm not even talking about this from a juror perspective.

[00:53:08] I'm just, I'm more talking about how we as fans, as Gabe says, talk about Rachel's legacy,

[00:53:12] which is again, something that we're talking about on the Island in the, in the final travel

[00:53:16] council is legacy.

[00:53:17] But even from like a final travel council perspective, I think what I've said is like, because the

[00:53:22] latitude for jurors is so major, um, where you basically it's vote how you want to

[00:53:26] vote, we can still criticize it, but just like only to a point, like less.

[00:53:31] And especially because also, yeah, all you have to do is vote.

[00:53:33] You don't have to do something in order to get a win, which you do in the game.

[00:53:36] So it has to be, I think, very specific to be like, wait, what?

[00:53:38] And it's more like, as I said in the article, and I'm kind of rehashing it, but like we can,

[00:53:43] you know, maybe criticize like the human move of like, that's not something we usually

[00:53:46] endorse for humans to be like critical or emotional a bit, or kind of, you know, that,

[00:53:50] that aspect.

[00:53:51] And maybe that doesn't mean they're wrong, but it's something that's maybe bad, but I don't

[00:53:54] see that from a juror perspective.

[00:53:55] I'm just looking at it, how we kind of look at Rachel's game, because I think that the

[00:54:00] legacy of Rachel is going to be something that even now is so, you know, highly debated,

[00:54:05] you know, between her being like, oh, she's so lucky and not good or between her being

[00:54:08] like the best ever.

[00:54:09] And I think that that will only get worse over time because people will stop remembering

[00:54:14] the nuances that I do believe exist in her game.

[00:54:17] And then the discourse about it will be even worse.

[00:54:20] Like, I think it'll be misremembered because there's so much kind of important nuance to

[00:54:24] all the good things she was doing, but with all the gaps that she had.

[00:54:27] And because the discourse has been so extreme from either side, that's going to be completely

[00:54:31] washed out to the extremes as, you know, discourse tends to do.

[00:54:36] I agree with you.

[00:54:37] I want to say, think about what I want to say now clearly.

[00:54:40] Absolutely.

[00:54:41] You can, like I say, you can criticize somebody and not be negative or make them feel bad

[00:54:47] about themselves.

[00:54:48] Right.

[00:54:48] That is, that is possible.

[00:54:50] I think a lot of times people get unnecessarily personal when they criticize somebody.

[00:54:54] Yeah, that's always terrible.

[00:54:55] But that speaks personal.

[00:54:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:56] Exactly.

[00:54:59] Yeah.

[00:55:00] I will just say this about the jurors as somebody who's played the game and as somebody

[00:55:05] who sat at a final tribal council and had to cast the vote.

[00:55:09] You don't have, as a player, point in time, you don't have full information.

[00:55:15] Exactly.

[00:55:15] You don't even know.

[00:55:16] You don't even know if the stuff the jury tells you that the three finalists, you don't

[00:55:21] even know if that's the truth.

[00:55:22] They might say, I found this idle on day X, Y, and Z.

[00:55:24] And then afterwards you find out, oh no, that's not how it happened at all.

[00:55:27] And I think a lot of times if people have watched the show over and you tell them then to vote,

[00:55:35] I think the result would be a different lot of times.

[00:55:38] And I'll give you an example.

[00:55:40] I'm not thinking about how I'm afraid of this.

[00:55:43] Because that's one of the casualties you have of voting without watching it with full information.

[00:55:49] There was a person in our season who voted for one of the two finalists based on a statement

[00:55:57] that was made at the tribal council.

[00:56:01] And then afterwards, they fact-checked it and found out, oh no, it actually went the other way.

[00:56:07] There was another reason how X, Y, and Z got that information.

[00:56:11] And then said, if I knew that, I would have voted differently.

[00:56:17] But you don't know that information because you just sit there and you say, what happened?

[00:56:20] And then you get this version, you get that version.

[00:56:23] And then you think, well, this version is version A.

[00:56:25] It's a lot more plausible than version B.

[00:56:26] And you think, okay, it has to be the truth.

[00:56:29] And then you watch it back and you're like, hang on.

[00:56:31] I got duped at the final tribal council by what they said.

[00:56:36] So I'm not saying the jurors made a mistake.

[00:56:38] I'm just saying with the information they had at the point in time,

[00:56:41] they thought this was the best decision.

[00:56:43] And as the audience, you're kind of an omnipresent, an omniscient watching down.

[00:56:49] And you have all the information.

[00:56:50] Yeah.

[00:56:51] But that's what makes it beautiful.

[00:56:52] We're not trying to get any right outcome because there is no right outcome.

[00:56:56] You know, and I don't need, you know, how is the best?

[00:57:00] I mean, we're saying this now, you know, like ranked voting,

[00:57:02] like what's the way to get the right outcome?

[00:57:04] That's not what we're looking for on this reality TV show.

[00:57:07] In an election, it should be, yes, that we need all the information

[00:57:11] and we need the best possible voting.

[00:57:12] But for something like this, I don't want them to go and get the tapes

[00:57:14] and like, what is it?

[00:57:16] Be like actual legal jurors.

[00:57:17] Like it's beautiful that jurors, and it's not even about the season,

[00:57:21] but like it's beautiful.

[00:57:22] That's why the game is so complicated because it's so flawed

[00:57:24] because jurors come in so emotional because that's so difficult.

[00:57:27] And I find it interesting even when I disagree with the votes

[00:57:29] or I criticize the votes and I love that part of the game.

[00:57:33] And in saying that, I've been saying that we should exploit that.

[00:57:35] The fact that that exists is such an interesting nuance strategically

[00:57:38] that is not being exploited enough.

[00:57:39] People bring up Christoity, you know, feeding like more of like

[00:57:43] kind of the lies or at least like amping up the apology.

[00:57:46] I think that needs to be done more.

[00:57:47] And I've been saying that for ages.

[00:57:48] And that's why I think Rachel's biggest mistake

[00:57:50] from a final tribal council standpoint was ever saying

[00:57:53] that the idol clue was in the fries.

[00:57:57] Who is fact-checking that?

[00:57:58] No one's fact-checking that, right?

[00:58:00] So at the point where the idol comes out, she's already a big threat.

[00:58:03] She already needs to win out or lose.

[00:58:05] It's not about, you know, upping her threat level because that's done.

[00:58:09] She has a very overt game at the point where she can go

[00:58:11] and have a funeral at tribal council at the final six

[00:58:14] and be a huge threat and just have to win out.

[00:58:17] So why are you giving Sam the ammo to say you got it in the fries,

[00:58:22] which was the luckiest that Rachel got?

[00:58:24] And then he's going to extrapolate it onto things that are less lucky.

[00:58:27] Things that I think are very fair that Sol mentioned, you know,

[00:58:30] we're going to have the curse with the discourse forever,

[00:58:32] which we can talk about on like, you know, Sol giving her the advantage

[00:58:35] when she had already been screwed over,

[00:58:37] when she had the relationship with Sol to get the advantage.

[00:58:39] He can talk about that.

[00:58:40] He can talk about the word block.

[00:58:41] He can talk about, oh, you just relied on these things.

[00:58:43] If she never says she got the clue in the fries and she,

[00:58:46] even if she wasn't like a big idol hunter, you know,

[00:58:49] on the way to the well, I found it and then I got it from the top.

[00:58:52] Then he can't say anything.

[00:58:53] So that for me, like, I think that people should be thinking more

[00:58:56] about what is unknowable to a jury and lying about it.

[00:59:00] And I would have loved to see Rachel pioneer that.

[00:59:02] And then at the after show, it'd be like, by the way,

[00:59:04] I found it in the fries and then they'd all feel like right idiots.

[00:59:06] Right.

[00:59:06] But that's great because I think that once we get to a final travel council,

[00:59:09] people feel like the game is over.

[00:59:11] I got to bear my soul.

[00:59:12] Like it's confession, but it's not,

[00:59:13] you're still part of the game and you can still manipulate people and that

[00:59:16] those people can be the jury.

[00:59:18] Yeah.

[00:59:20] No, that's, that's interesting.

[00:59:22] I never thought about it like that.

[00:59:23] You can, you can say like, I, I mean, that's,

[00:59:25] that's the thing when I was, you have the,

[00:59:27] the live reunion show, right?

[00:59:28] I mean, that's kind of the overflow of just your vote.

[00:59:32] I mean, go straight into it.

[00:59:36] But that's an interesting point.

[00:59:37] Like you make, well, at that point in time, the votes,

[00:59:40] the votes have been read or whatever.

[00:59:41] You can say what you want.

[00:59:42] It's not the impact.

[00:59:44] You do you.

[00:59:45] Yeah.

[00:59:45] Yeah.

[00:59:47] I mean, I know people complain about the,

[00:59:50] the live reunion a lot,

[00:59:52] but I really think it's one of the things I know Jeff says it's very rare.

[00:59:55] And this is the most honest it'll be in the starting place by social media.

[00:59:58] And that's true.

[00:59:58] But at the same time, I mean,

[01:00:01] there's been so many people who sat there really thinking they were going to

[01:00:03] win.

[01:00:04] And then you have to go through all of that.

[01:00:05] I mean, just watching survivor back,

[01:00:06] it's so traumatizing.

[01:00:08] And like you said,

[01:00:09] and you have to sit there for go to counseling or whatever,

[01:00:11] because you didn't win the game or whatever.

[01:00:13] And now you have to immediately afterwards,

[01:00:16] explain it to Jeff and 10 other people.

[01:00:18] And you don't even know what's going on.

[01:00:19] So yeah, that's a,

[01:00:21] that's a maybe different conversation.

[01:00:24] But in terms of your question about Rachel's legacy,

[01:00:27] I think I'm happy that that you won,

[01:00:29] because I think she won in a,

[01:00:31] I don't know if people always want you to win like Kim Spradlin,

[01:00:34] like you need to control the game from start to finish or like Rob from our

[01:00:37] season,

[01:00:37] you need to control every single thing that happens from start to finish.

[01:00:39] But I think she showed us that you can be a human,

[01:00:43] you can make mistakes and you can get to the bottom and go up and down.

[01:00:46] And if you win, if you are a physical player,

[01:00:49] that's enough credit.

[01:00:50] It's respectable enough to win.

[01:00:52] And if you use advantages,

[01:00:53] it's respected enough to win as well.

[01:00:55] So I think because she played such a well-balanced game,

[01:00:57] you mentioned the word consistency.

[01:01:00] I think her game was kind of consistent enough overall,

[01:01:03] but you can get it.

[01:01:04] You can say it's,

[01:01:05] it's a respectable game.

[01:01:06] I don't think anybody's going to discredit it in the future.

[01:01:09] Yeah.

[01:01:10] I think there were gaps.

[01:01:12] So it's hard for me to say consistent,

[01:01:13] but I would say varied,

[01:01:14] which is interesting because I'm saying there was,

[01:01:16] there's one note pathway,

[01:01:17] but I think her game did that in such a dynamic way.

[01:01:20] Like in the,

[01:01:21] what I've called like the best offensive game of all time.

[01:01:24] She,

[01:01:25] that defense was so interesting,

[01:01:26] you know,

[01:01:26] like Rob said that it was stealthy and actually like that game meant to be

[01:01:29] very overt because again,

[01:01:30] you can go have your funeral and then come back from it and just be loud and

[01:01:33] then fight back.

[01:01:34] But she did have these stealthy elements of,

[01:01:36] you know,

[01:01:37] spying and then the blind fighting that she did within that.

[01:01:40] Then it's obviously physical disadvantages.

[01:01:41] It's so comprehensive.

[01:01:43] And to compare it to Ben and Mike,

[01:01:44] because again,

[01:01:45] I do think it's in that mold,

[01:01:46] but the best of that mold more highly ranked within that mold.

[01:01:49] You know,

[01:01:50] I think like,

[01:01:50] again,

[01:01:51] people,

[01:01:52] it's a lot of conversation about Ben and Mike this week.

[01:01:54] I don't know if Ben and Mike were watching the televisions when they got

[01:01:57] the drive by about how they're not good winners to Andy and Rachel.

[01:02:00] And now Andy might not vote for Rachel because she's similar to them.

[01:02:03] And I wonder if they were just watching and going like,

[01:02:05] Hey,

[01:02:06] but a lot of Ben and Mike discourse this week.

[01:02:09] So I feel like,

[01:02:10] I mean,

[01:02:10] they might be sad,

[01:02:12] but they can,

[01:02:13] they can wipe it off with a hunt with a million,

[01:02:17] one dollar bills.

[01:02:18] So,

[01:02:19] I mean,

[01:02:20] what are they?

[01:02:20] Yeah.

[01:02:20] I mean,

[01:02:21] money can't buy not being put down by Andy randomly.

[01:02:24] And travel council many,

[01:02:26] many seasons later,

[01:02:27] but I think,

[01:02:28] well,

[01:02:28] I think actually it's been a good thing for Ben and Mike because I think

[01:02:30] now people are like,

[01:02:31] well,

[01:02:31] maybe I do like that.

[01:02:32] Maybe that's more impressive than I thought.

[01:02:33] And I think that people,

[01:02:35] because they had a bias of not liking Ben and Mike,

[01:02:37] you know,

[01:02:38] did overlook and continue to overlook parts of their game.

[01:02:40] Ben and Mike were big threats.

[01:02:42] They both came in as like the blue collar battler of the theme.

[01:02:46] Max Dawson had a whole thread about like Mike and that.

[01:02:48] And yes,

[01:02:49] Mike has like the kind of social misstep at the auction that I don't think

[01:02:52] Rachel ever does.

[01:02:53] But other than that,

[01:02:54] I think the three of them are threats and to a degree,

[01:02:57] they all have to wear parts of that threat level.

[01:02:59] They are not returnees who come in as winners or with that kind of

[01:03:02] discrepancy,

[01:03:03] that's impossible to protect against.

[01:03:04] Like they come in as with,

[01:03:06] to be fair,

[01:03:07] you know,

[01:03:08] with you are who you are and archetypes are going to be in different

[01:03:11] ways,

[01:03:11] but like they have to wear and fight against that.

[01:03:14] And the way that they all did that was there was like,

[01:03:17] maybe,

[01:03:18] you know,

[01:03:19] maybe we can talk about like other ways that their threat level

[01:03:22] increased,

[01:03:23] but the way that they all protected was defending for me.

[01:03:26] Like,

[01:03:26] you know,

[01:03:26] you talk about people who win a lot,

[01:03:28] like Kim wins for immunity challenges,

[01:03:31] but she's,

[01:03:31] she doesn't rely on them.

[01:03:33] You know,

[01:03:33] Rob won five,

[01:03:34] but that wasn't his game.

[01:03:35] I think the difference in the mold of the game is relying on safety and

[01:03:38] constantly needing to defend.

[01:03:41] I also think that's fine to,

[01:03:44] again,

[01:03:44] it's not my preference because I love the social maneuvering,

[01:03:47] but like,

[01:03:48] yeah,

[01:03:48] if you can make sure you're safe every time,

[01:03:51] then yeah,

[01:03:52] you'll probably get to the end and win because it's impressive and you'll

[01:03:54] always be safe.

[01:03:55] But I think the reason that someone like me,

[01:03:57] I might criticize that is because if you don't have control,

[01:04:01] that feels tenuous to me.

[01:04:03] Like that is a lot to have to get it done every time without controlling to

[01:04:08] make sure you'll be safe other ways.

[01:04:10] But Rachel,

[01:04:11] they,

[01:04:11] firstly,

[01:04:12] they all did get it done.

[01:04:13] So props to them,

[01:04:13] not Ben though.

[01:04:14] Ben,

[01:04:14] to be fair,

[01:04:15] he lost and then surprise fire came in.

[01:04:17] We can talk about that,

[01:04:18] but for,

[01:04:20] for the,

[01:04:21] you know,

[01:04:21] make basically they all did get it done on what is seemingly a tenuous

[01:04:24] path.

[01:04:25] So you have to credit that.

[01:04:26] And Rachel did have other outs,

[01:04:27] you know,

[01:04:28] she did kind of go under the radar and have social connections through the

[01:04:30] mid merge when she'd been a threat at the merge and she'd had that

[01:04:32] aura.

[01:04:33] And Rachel as well,

[01:04:34] like coming in as a threat,

[01:04:36] it is tough because she talked about,

[01:04:37] you know,

[01:04:38] being like the petite Asian woman in the pre merge.

[01:04:40] She has to show that she's valuable and good at puzzles because

[01:04:42] otherwise she'll be out the door.

[01:04:43] And that's such an unfair kind of thing put on her archetype as well.

[01:04:46] So at the point where she's becoming a threat,

[01:04:50] she does find ways to protect against it.

[01:04:52] And then she,

[01:04:53] as she said,

[01:04:53] she gets the idol and then she knows she can lean into being the threat a

[01:04:57] little bit more because she knows she'll have that further protection.

[01:04:59] So I do think that there are kind of strategic parts of that to put her

[01:05:03] on the pathway or to protect against the pathway that are impressive.

[01:05:07] So it is,

[01:05:13] impressive in the way that she did it.

[01:05:15] Yeah.

[01:05:15] And I think it's,

[01:05:16] uh,

[01:05:17] I like this concept you now taught me or woke in my mind about an offensive

[01:05:24] game and a defensive game.

[01:05:25] Um,

[01:05:26] and now you can,

[01:05:27] I mean,

[01:05:28] I think different seasons,

[01:05:29] depending on how it plays out,

[01:05:31] you know,

[01:05:31] like I say,

[01:05:31] sometimes you have like a bigger line running a game and then the small

[01:05:34] people just get knocked out.

[01:05:35] And at the end you,

[01:05:36] you wouldn't,

[01:05:37] you say I had played this very aggressive game or offensive game.

[01:05:41] You on the game.

[01:05:41] Good.

[01:05:42] Um,

[01:05:43] but it's clear that this season,

[01:05:44] because like I said,

[01:05:45] there was no person.

[01:05:47] I like when Genevieve said that,

[01:05:48] like,

[01:05:48] is there any person who was at the top for the whole game?

[01:05:51] No.

[01:05:52] Okay.

[01:05:52] So it kind of means that in this kind of situation,

[01:05:55] like you say,

[01:05:56] you have to pop and weave and,

[01:05:57] and,

[01:05:57] um,

[01:05:58] duck and dive and roll and whatnot.

[01:06:00] Um,

[01:06:01] it's good that,

[01:06:01] that with this defensive game,

[01:06:03] she can get to the end and still win.

[01:06:05] Um,

[01:06:05] doesn't make it less of a victory.

[01:06:07] I mean,

[01:06:07] the game has different elements,

[01:06:09] everything,

[01:06:10] every single season,

[01:06:11] but,

[01:06:12] um,

[01:06:13] yeah,

[01:06:13] it's an interesting concept.

[01:06:14] I never thought of it like that.

[01:06:15] I get wise.

[01:06:16] Maybe time I talk to you,

[01:06:17] Shannon.

[01:06:17] No,

[01:06:18] I thought of it.

[01:06:18] Rachel told that to me because I,

[01:06:20] because that,

[01:06:20] that so much.

[01:06:22] So defines her game for me also,

[01:06:24] but thank you for saying that,

[01:06:25] but that's what I was thinking about it.

[01:06:27] Because even if you think about Rachel's pathway,

[01:06:29] you know,

[01:06:30] like every time she's going to be immune,

[01:06:32] it's like people can do other things,

[01:06:33] but again,

[01:06:33] if Rachel's going to win out immunity every time,

[01:06:35] I guess it's just about like taking out physical threats.

[01:06:38] Um,

[01:06:38] and she's going to get to the end and at that point be a huge threat.

[01:06:41] Um,

[01:06:41] so that,

[01:06:42] I mean,

[01:06:42] that's the type of game,

[01:06:43] like it's so,

[01:06:44] so protected.

[01:06:44] Like I really see it as like shield,

[01:06:46] not sword,

[01:06:47] but the shield was so dynamic.

[01:06:48] Like it is defensive,

[01:06:50] but there's offensive moves within that.

[01:06:51] And even things like that she has,

[01:06:53] um,

[01:06:54] pointed out,

[01:06:54] like as an example,

[01:06:55] and like Adam spoke to this a bit,

[01:06:57] um,

[01:06:57] on the recap,

[01:06:58] but I,

[01:06:59] I think as well,

[01:07:00] it's not that she necessarily needed to win out every time because she did

[01:07:03] have a shield in Genevieve as an example.

[01:07:05] Yeah.

[01:07:05] She wanted Genevieve out at seven,

[01:07:07] but then she would have had numbers because she had had numbers at the

[01:07:09] point where she didn't have numbers.

[01:07:11] She did have a shield in Genevieve.

[01:07:12] Genevieve wins immunity at six.

[01:07:14] Rachel says she wanted Genevieve out at six.

[01:07:16] And he wanted Genevieve out at six.

[01:07:17] Genevieve was a huge target at six,

[01:07:19] you know,

[01:07:19] even at five,

[01:07:20] if she doesn't win,

[01:07:20] if Genevieve doesn't win,

[01:07:22] possibly Rachel goes as a better fire contender.

[01:07:24] And also they don't know if,

[01:07:25] if Genevieve had an idol,

[01:07:26] but I could see if they want Genevieve out over Rachel fire aside,

[01:07:30] I could see them putting three votes on Genevieve and they're like,

[01:07:33] okay,

[01:07:33] if it ricochets back onto Rachel,

[01:07:35] it'll be what it'll be instead of voting for it might've happened.

[01:07:37] I'm just,

[01:07:37] but that's still defensive.

[01:07:38] You know,

[01:07:39] having a shield to me,

[01:07:40] it's still defensive.

[01:07:41] It's still about surviving.

[01:07:42] But I think that the way she was doing that was really,

[01:07:46] really impressive.

[01:07:47] So yeah,

[01:07:47] like to compare it to Ben and Mike,

[01:07:49] who I think had that as well.

[01:07:50] I think theirs was a little less dimensional in the defensive game,

[01:07:53] but I would still categorize them all as defensive games.

[01:07:56] And that's why I would rank her,

[01:07:58] you know,

[01:07:59] higher as a winner compared to them.

[01:08:01] Cause yeah,

[01:08:01] I think that for,

[01:08:04] yeah,

[01:08:04] for Ben and Mike,

[01:08:06] like,

[01:08:07] let's talk about this because I guess the biggest question.

[01:08:09] Better Mike than half the cost of a season.

[01:08:12] Because they,

[01:08:14] well,

[01:08:15] I mean,

[01:08:16] like in terms of like,

[01:08:17] the big thing with Ben is like fire came in and saved him.

[01:08:19] And the big thing with Rachel is like the fries came in,

[01:08:21] you know,

[01:08:21] you can't buy fries without fire.

[01:08:23] Oh my God.

[01:08:26] Literally fires and fries.

[01:08:27] Those were the two things.

[01:08:28] And that's been the biggest knock against her game.

[01:08:30] Like there is an iron fire and fries and fries.

[01:08:33] Yeah.

[01:08:33] And those were the things that I think that that is,

[01:08:35] you know,

[01:08:35] she said that that was the luckiest.

[01:08:36] And that is,

[01:08:37] that's the luckiest thing that happened to her.

[01:08:38] Some people say that it was production manufactured,

[01:08:40] like put in the auction for her.

[01:08:42] How do you look at that moment?

[01:08:43] Because yeah,

[01:08:43] if she doesn't get the,

[01:08:45] she doesn't get the clue in the fries.

[01:08:48] She's not going to.

[01:08:49] I mean,

[01:08:49] how would they manufacture a specific person?

[01:08:51] I mean,

[01:08:51] Jeff has to put it in.

[01:08:53] It's covered.

[01:08:54] And then you don't know who's going to buy it.

[01:08:55] So how do you kind of do in this auction?

[01:08:59] Because the person with the next money will buy the thing.

[01:09:01] Like you can game it.

[01:09:02] I don't think they know that though.

[01:09:04] Like I can,

[01:09:05] we've complained about that from the new era auction,

[01:09:07] but I don't think that they are like,

[01:09:09] they still think it's dynamic.

[01:09:11] They're not right.

[01:09:11] But like,

[01:09:12] but I don't think that,

[01:09:13] I mean,

[01:09:13] like also like Rachel at that point,

[01:09:15] like it's not the main character of the season.

[01:09:17] It's not Andy,

[01:09:18] you know,

[01:09:18] like,

[01:09:18] I don't see why I've seen them do it in Australian survivor and

[01:09:21] Australian survivor.

[01:09:22] The underdog got a note that was like,

[01:09:24] go to this place and we'll give you the clue.

[01:09:26] And I always thought that was so,

[01:09:28] so suspicious that if it was an overdog,

[01:09:30] it would have been like,

[01:09:31] um,

[01:09:31] you want nothing turn around and,

[01:09:33] you know,

[01:09:33] don't pass,

[01:09:34] pass,

[01:09:34] go,

[01:09:35] go to jail or,

[01:09:35] you know,

[01:09:36] but like,

[01:09:36] but the underdog.

[01:09:37] I mean,

[01:09:38] they're the most two faced people in the world.

[01:09:42] They can be so,

[01:09:43] uh,

[01:09:43] Oh no,

[01:09:44] we want to give everybody a fair.

[01:09:45] So not really.

[01:09:47] Well,

[01:09:47] they don't want to,

[01:09:48] they've never said that,

[01:09:48] but yeah,

[01:09:49] I mean like I will always be suspicious of the blood versus

[01:09:53] water clue at the auction because they wasn't a clue.

[01:09:55] It was like,

[01:09:55] go here to get your clue.

[01:09:56] And I really feel like it would have been different depending on who got

[01:09:58] it.

[01:09:59] The fries,

[01:09:59] the fries idol.

[01:10:00] They did not know who was going to get it.

[01:10:02] I really don't think that they think that's gameable.

[01:10:04] And I don't even understand why they would give that to Rachel,

[01:10:06] who at that point,

[01:10:07] like,

[01:10:07] you know,

[01:10:08] Sam,

[01:10:08] Kyle,

[01:10:09] Andy,

[01:10:10] at that point,

[01:10:10] surely would have been Genevieve would have been the people that

[01:10:13] they were.

[01:10:13] Anyway,

[01:10:14] I don't think that that's good,

[01:10:15] but how do you look,

[01:10:15] but it is lucky.

[01:10:16] It's very,

[01:10:16] I don't think it's manufactured.

[01:10:17] I mean,

[01:10:18] she got saved by soul as well,

[01:10:19] right?

[01:10:19] Like,

[01:10:20] I mean,

[01:10:20] you can say that's a personal connection.

[01:10:22] You can say it.

[01:10:22] But she was screwed over to be saved by soul.

[01:10:24] Like,

[01:10:25] I don't,

[01:10:25] I don't blame that at all.

[01:10:26] Yeah.

[01:10:27] No,

[01:10:27] I'm just saying.

[01:10:28] So there are some kind of,

[01:10:30] I mean,

[01:10:30] that's the,

[01:10:31] I mean,

[01:10:31] how many people have got,

[01:10:32] how many people who won the game afterwards said,

[01:10:35] you know,

[01:10:35] it's,

[01:10:36] it's 30% luck,

[01:10:38] 30% skill,

[01:10:40] 40% strategy,

[01:10:41] or whatever the case might be.

[01:10:43] Everybody admits that there's some luck involved in survivor.

[01:10:45] I mean,

[01:10:46] it's not a,

[01:10:47] it's not a,

[01:10:48] a game of perfect information.

[01:10:50] So it's not an abstract strategy.

[01:10:51] You can have like chess or checkers or,

[01:10:53] or whatever.

[01:10:54] There is a comp,

[01:10:54] there's a factor of luck in it.

[01:10:56] It's as part of the game,

[01:10:58] especially like the prize idol,

[01:11:00] like people like,

[01:11:00] like compared to surprise fire for me,

[01:11:04] I know that the letters might be similar,

[01:11:06] the same,

[01:11:08] but surprise fire was like a whole mechanism.

[01:11:09] People get clues in their napkins all the time.

[01:11:12] And whatever napkin you sit in like that,

[01:11:13] that really is a part of the game for me.

[01:11:15] And I really don't think it's manufactured,

[01:11:16] but that was lucky.

[01:11:17] And I do think she should have lied about it.

[01:11:18] That's my one thing.

[01:11:19] But otherwise,

[01:11:22] yeah,

[01:11:22] I think that she,

[01:11:23] she had shields there.

[01:11:24] I think as well,

[01:11:25] you know,

[01:11:25] she might've got a little bit unlucky that if Jen,

[01:11:27] if she goes at six and she doesn't have an idol because Genevieve was immune.

[01:11:30] It's like,

[01:11:30] that's the one person who want immunity that you didn't,

[01:11:32] wouldn't want.

[01:11:32] And otherwise she does have huge shield capability.

[01:11:35] So I think she had a lot of outs,

[01:11:37] but they were defensive outs.

[01:11:38] And that's where I see her game.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:42] Yeah.

[01:11:43] Anything else we need to talk about,

[01:11:45] about after the winners?

[01:11:46] I think there's so many other things,

[01:11:47] notes I have.

[01:11:48] Do you have anything else we need to talk about?

[01:11:51] Yeah.

[01:11:51] I mean,

[01:11:52] I'd like,

[01:11:52] I'd like to talk about like,

[01:11:55] where,

[01:11:56] where would you rank Rachel?

[01:11:57] Like from a macro perspective,

[01:11:58] even just like as a new,

[01:11:59] new era winner or just very broadly,

[01:12:01] like as a winner?

[01:12:04] Difficult one.

[01:12:06] Always ranked directly after thinking.

[01:12:09] I will say,

[01:12:13] I will rank it.

[01:12:14] I would say in the upper half or upper 50 percentile of winners,

[01:12:21] because I think it was a more well-rounded game.

[01:12:24] I think it was a little bit of everything.

[01:12:26] Cause I think the way I always think about it,

[01:12:29] a winner,

[01:12:30] this is just my personal opinion.

[01:12:32] It might be stained.

[01:12:33] It's just what I think.

[01:12:35] I always rank a winner in the way.

[01:12:37] And they say,

[01:12:38] if you play the game again,

[01:12:41] and I know winners at war situation,

[01:12:43] or you play it again,

[01:12:45] everything's on footing,

[01:12:47] equal footing,

[01:12:48] or you kind of go back in time and you play the same season again,

[01:12:51] would that person win a game?

[01:12:54] Some people I think have kind of wanted bonus and that one way of winning

[01:12:57] and they can't do it again.

[01:12:59] I think Rachel's one of those people who,

[01:13:01] if she plays a game,

[01:13:03] she can win a game.

[01:13:04] If that makes sense.

[01:13:07] I think a lot of people who,

[01:13:09] even though they won the seasons,

[01:13:10] I don't think they would win again if they played from any instance of

[01:13:14] survivor.

[01:13:16] But I think Rachel's game was diverse enough that she would be able to win

[01:13:21] again.

[01:13:22] And that's something I always think of when I think about how good I think a

[01:13:25] winner is.

[01:13:26] So I would say that,

[01:13:28] in that,

[01:13:28] I mean,

[01:13:30] like I said,

[01:13:30] I don't want to name names or upset people,

[01:13:32] but I think the other winners who were a lot more one dimensional,

[01:13:35] I think would win multiple seasons.

[01:13:37] I think she could,

[01:13:38] if the season is three,

[01:13:39] if this season goes back and you replay it,

[01:13:42] I think she would be one person who could be able to win it again.

[01:13:45] Yeah.

[01:13:46] Well,

[01:13:46] I think that that's a big thing for me is like game versus player.

[01:13:49] And I said last week,

[01:13:50] I think that she'd be a winner.

[01:13:51] Who's,

[01:13:52] who's a better player than her game.

[01:13:53] Kind of like an Adam Plyte as strong as I do think it is a strong game.

[01:13:56] And I agree like somewhere around,

[01:13:58] maybe to just over half is where I put it from a new era winner on game.

[01:14:02] I would put D jam,

[01:14:03] jam,

[01:14:04] Marianne,

[01:14:04] who I think is criminally unarranted with her positioning best move from a

[01:14:08] winner.

[01:14:09] Um,

[01:14:10] I think of the new era,

[01:14:11] like you talked about how she went to the end with her idol.

[01:14:13] That's because she made a big move without the idol.

[01:14:15] And then even got to save it to the final travel council.

[01:14:17] I think Marianne stood for me.

[01:14:18] Then Rachel's game.

[01:14:19] Then like Kenzie,

[01:14:21] Erica Gabler is kind of where I put it.

[01:14:23] On game.

[01:14:24] Um,

[01:14:25] but I think,

[01:14:25] yeah,

[01:14:25] in terms of,

[01:14:26] of that,

[01:14:27] that's,

[01:14:27] that's where I see it for Rachel.

[01:14:29] But in terms of,

[01:14:29] as a player,

[01:14:30] yeah,

[01:14:30] like she's so draftable,

[01:14:33] like everyone from the new era,

[01:14:35] if it was like,

[01:14:36] I've seen their game,

[01:14:37] but they don't know each other.

[01:14:38] And if they're going out to play,

[01:14:40] so it's like a newbie game,

[01:14:41] but I know them,

[01:14:42] like she might be first pick on the board for me as a new era.

[01:14:46] That's what I better verbalize what I said.

[01:14:49] I knew everything about them,

[01:14:51] but they haven't seen each other and they play again.

[01:14:52] Um,

[01:14:53] I agree on,

[01:14:54] on skill again,

[01:14:55] like the influences,

[01:14:56] maybe a little bit of an issue,

[01:14:57] but maybe not with a different cast.

[01:14:58] I also think the cast is very good.

[01:15:00] Like,

[01:15:01] I think these players came to play,

[01:15:02] like they were an AI optimized cast and that's why they were all besting each other because you have to speak to the quality of her competition.

[01:15:08] Um,

[01:15:08] but yeah,

[01:15:09] as,

[01:15:09] as a player,

[01:15:10] I think,

[01:15:11] you know,

[01:15:11] I,

[01:15:11] I take umbrage with comparing her to Hayley's brain versus brawn game.

[01:15:16] Um,

[01:15:17] because I think that that's one of the most impressive games ever.

[01:15:19] And it was very in control at times.

[01:15:21] It was defensive because Australian survivors are a marathon and she played like 15 different games in that season,

[01:15:25] but it was super controlled.

[01:15:26] I think really most of the time,

[01:15:29] other than the twist based stuff,

[01:15:30] um,

[01:15:31] compared to,

[01:15:32] but like as a,

[01:15:33] as a player in that archetype of like physical women,

[01:15:37] smart women who can win a lot of challenges.

[01:15:39] I see that.

[01:15:41] I mean,

[01:15:41] Hayley came into her return on the defensive because she was a winner and like had to play a really defensive game.

[01:15:47] And Rachel just did that,

[01:15:48] but excelled at it.

[01:15:49] Um,

[01:15:50] so I see that.

[01:15:51] And I think,

[01:15:51] yeah,

[01:15:51] I mean,

[01:15:51] looking at people who I would draft from the new era,

[01:15:54] I think jam jam is always going to be sparkly,

[01:15:56] but underestimated strategic human challenges as well.

[01:15:59] I think Charlie's a good one,

[01:16:00] another all rounder,

[01:16:01] but yeah,

[01:16:02] I think Rachel's in the top three for me of who I would draft ever,

[01:16:06] um,

[01:16:07] just on pure skill.

[01:16:08] And I do think that that is different.

[01:16:10] Um,

[01:16:10] like compared to D I have D as the best winning game.

[01:16:13] Um,

[01:16:14] and I think we got from what I can kind of see of these places.

[01:16:17] I think she's a great player,

[01:16:18] but I also think we got like the maximum good game from her.

[01:16:22] Maybe I'm underestimating her.

[01:16:23] Um,

[01:16:24] you know,

[01:16:24] I don't think she was super lucky.

[01:16:25] She had a good tribe,

[01:16:26] but you know,

[01:16:28] Rachel wasn't exactly in a disaster tribe.

[01:16:29] That might be a big disparity,

[01:16:30] but like we've had much worse tribes.

[01:16:33] Um,

[01:16:34] you know,

[01:16:34] but D does,

[01:16:34] I think maximize a good tribe that she has.

[01:16:36] And I think we see the best possible game that she can play.

[01:16:39] Whereas I feel like Rachel is scary.

[01:16:41] Like,

[01:16:41] I don't think we've scratched the surface of what Rachel can do because the

[01:16:44] skills are all there and she achieved so much with the limited

[01:16:47] opportunities.

[01:16:47] If she has more,

[01:16:49] it could be dangerous.

[01:16:50] So from that perspective,

[01:16:51] I think,

[01:16:52] yeah,

[01:16:52] as a player,

[01:16:53] super,

[01:16:53] super high as a game,

[01:16:54] I have her in the middle,

[01:16:55] still very high with,

[01:16:56] with winners.

[01:16:57] I really respect,

[01:16:58] but yeah,

[01:16:58] about fourth of seven for the new era for me.

[01:17:01] That's my disparity.

[01:17:02] Who from this season do you think we're going to see again?

[01:17:06] Andy.

[01:17:09] Genevieve.

[01:17:09] Rachel would be a great winner to come back because again,

[01:17:12] it's kind of like Sophie Clark,

[01:17:13] actually,

[01:17:13] I think is another great comparison.

[01:17:15] Like Sophie played one way and she also,

[01:17:16] she was quite young.

[01:17:18] Um,

[01:17:18] and then came back and winners at war and played like a godmother type

[01:17:22] game until,

[01:17:23] you know,

[01:17:23] one of the most,

[01:17:24] you know,

[01:17:25] impressive votes that Tony pulled off against her.

[01:17:26] So yeah,

[01:17:27] Rachel as a winner,

[01:17:28] I think would come back in a,

[01:17:29] in a really impressive way.

[01:17:31] Sam,

[01:17:31] I think was great.

[01:17:32] I want to talk more about his game.

[01:17:34] Yeah.

[01:17:34] What do you think?

[01:17:35] Teenie maybe.

[01:17:37] Jerry's little out on Teenie.

[01:17:40] Apparently like it didn't translate as much for production.

[01:17:43] Really?

[01:17:44] Yeah.

[01:17:46] I thought he was quite,

[01:17:47] I thought he was quite grabbing the screen.

[01:17:50] Um,

[01:17:51] yeah,

[01:17:51] I don't know.

[01:17:53] And I think I'm just looking pre-merge.

[01:17:57] Maybe John.

[01:17:58] I mean,

[01:17:58] I don't know.

[01:17:59] He was a good narrator.

[01:17:59] John Lover's not coming back again.

[01:18:01] I feel like we got him once and that's done,

[01:18:03] but okay.

[01:18:04] So can we talk about Sam as well?

[01:18:06] Because I do want to talk.

[01:18:06] Cause I feel like,

[01:18:07] you know,

[01:18:08] Sam,

[01:18:08] I'm,

[01:18:09] I love Sam.

[01:18:09] Like,

[01:18:10] what did you think of Sam's game overall?

[01:18:12] No,

[01:18:12] I mean,

[01:18:13] I,

[01:18:13] I think,

[01:18:13] I think Sam was one of his people.

[01:18:16] Sam's game was interesting because in the beginning he was in the tribe

[01:18:20] and they've heard it out,

[01:18:20] John.

[01:18:21] Um,

[01:18:22] and then he kind of went to Andy and be like,

[01:18:25] Andy,

[01:18:25] you know,

[01:18:26] here's the,

[01:18:26] here's the,

[01:18:26] here's the buoy.

[01:18:27] Come,

[01:18:27] come with me.

[01:18:30] and then later on,

[01:18:31] Andy turn on him.

[01:18:31] It's like,

[01:18:32] wait,

[01:18:32] what?

[01:18:32] I gave you everything I had and now you're turning on me.

[01:18:34] And then kind of reconcile with him again at the end.

[01:18:38] Um,

[01:18:39] which was,

[01:18:39] which was kind of,

[01:18:40] quite kind of an interesting arc.

[01:18:42] Um,

[01:18:43] I think,

[01:18:46] I think the thing with Sam is because he's such a,

[01:18:50] I mean,

[01:18:51] obviously,

[01:18:52] uh,

[01:18:53] what's him call it?

[01:18:53] Uh,

[01:18:54] Carl won all the,

[01:18:55] uh,

[01:18:55] like these rodeo game,

[01:18:57] carnival game challenges.

[01:18:58] Um,

[01:18:58] um,

[01:18:59] I think if Carl wasn't there,

[01:19:00] I think Sam would have won a lot more of these,

[01:19:02] uh,

[01:19:03] his rodeo game challenges.

[01:19:04] But I think those people always struggle,

[01:19:06] um,

[01:19:07] to,

[01:19:12] I think somebody like Sam always has this kind of,

[01:19:15] Oh,

[01:19:15] I,

[01:19:15] I,

[01:19:15] I am this big guy.

[01:19:17] I am the kind of like,

[01:19:18] it's like all the things that Benny said,

[01:19:20] like I'm the chili,

[01:19:21] uh,

[01:19:21] the capital,

[01:19:22] the football team,

[01:19:22] whatever.

[01:19:23] And I think he kind of,

[01:19:23] it's very difficult stereotype to come in and then get to the end.

[01:19:27] And then to still say in a very nice way that you should vote for me.

[01:19:30] Um,

[01:19:31] I,

[01:19:31] I enjoyed Sam.

[01:19:32] I think what was good to see from him is usually these guys,

[01:19:36] uh,

[01:19:37] play games that are kind of in a position of dominance where they're just like

[01:19:40] mow down the competition.

[01:19:41] Um,

[01:19:42] and he was kind of the opposite.

[01:19:44] He was down and then he had to play from,

[01:19:46] you know,

[01:19:46] an uphill game all the way to the end.

[01:19:48] And sometimes those people who are kind of his big dominant players or like

[01:19:52] alpha males,

[01:19:53] whatever you want,

[01:19:54] if they don't get a footing,

[01:19:57] disintegrate or become like very hostile,

[01:19:59] um,

[01:20:00] or,

[01:20:00] or,

[01:20:01] uh,

[01:20:02] they just,

[01:20:02] the game struggle.

[01:20:03] And I think Sam had a lot of grit.

[01:20:05] You're like,

[01:20:06] every time he's like,

[01:20:07] I'm,

[01:20:07] I'm going to come back.

[01:20:08] I'm going to make a play,

[01:20:09] whether it's,

[01:20:09] I need to reconcile with Andy,

[01:20:11] whether it's,

[01:20:11] I need to make a challenge,

[01:20:12] whether it's,

[01:20:13] I need to now win a food award and get the right number of people to come

[01:20:16] with me.

[01:20:17] Um,

[01:20:18] I respect that as a person.

[01:20:19] I,

[01:20:20] I always hated when people say,

[01:20:22] afterwards,

[01:20:22] Oh,

[01:20:22] this nothing I could have done because this,

[01:20:24] this,

[01:20:24] this happened like this every single time in survivor,

[01:20:26] a lot can change in 24 hours.

[01:20:29] And someone was one of those people really like grabbed it and said,

[01:20:32] well,

[01:20:32] I'm going to make my own destiny in this game.

[01:20:34] And I respect that.

[01:20:35] I like that a lot from him.

[01:20:36] Yeah.

[01:20:36] I think the ways that he said,

[01:20:38] find a way to find a way,

[01:20:39] the ways that he found were again,

[01:20:41] really difficult to see because they were more subtle and strategic.

[01:20:45] And also because they were being hidden from us in the edit.

[01:20:47] Truly.

[01:20:47] When I read that article the night before the finale,

[01:20:49] where he,

[01:20:50] he said how much he'd already thought of operation Italy.

[01:20:52] I was like,

[01:20:52] Oh,

[01:20:52] he's losing at the end to Rachel because they would have shown that if he's

[01:20:55] going to win.

[01:20:55] And if anything,

[01:20:57] they want to,

[01:20:57] they can't build that up against her,

[01:20:58] because again,

[01:20:59] the fandom would understand that even if he had done that,

[01:21:01] putting Rachel ahead of him and then sitting next to her makes it an

[01:21:04] unwinnable game,

[01:21:05] which should be obvious.

[01:21:06] I think,

[01:21:07] because I think like a lot of the people complaining about,

[01:21:09] you know,

[01:21:10] Sam,

[01:21:10] and I haven't seen a lot of it,

[01:21:11] but a lot of people are complaining about Sam losing to Rachel.

[01:21:14] If the genders were swapped in the archetype,

[01:21:16] I don't think any of those people would say anything about Sam winning in

[01:21:19] Rachel's archetype.

[01:21:19] And literally it's actually such an interesting exercise in like gender

[01:21:23] based discourse,

[01:21:24] because they are literally playing across type,

[01:21:27] which,

[01:21:28] and if you're still complaining that the man,

[01:21:30] you know,

[01:21:30] lost or it's like,

[01:21:31] usually like you would love this game to win as a fan for the people

[01:21:34] saying it,

[01:21:35] if that makes sense.

[01:21:36] But yeah,

[01:21:37] I love what I love about Sam as a character is that he has like the

[01:21:41] bravado in the water when he's like going to fire and he's like puts

[01:21:43] on this front,

[01:21:44] but like really he's talking in confession about how he's so scared and he

[01:21:47] doesn't want to look stupid.

[01:21:48] And he's actually just this like young,

[01:21:49] guy who's like got a soft heart.

[01:21:51] And he's like the,

[01:21:52] the job that looks like a theater kid.

[01:21:53] Like he is the Troy Bolton that we've spoke about from the preseason.

[01:21:56] And I really,

[01:21:57] really love that from a character perspective.

[01:22:00] And I think from a player perspective,

[01:22:02] like all of those things are things I enjoy,

[01:22:04] like the little moves he's spoken about in X interviews,

[01:22:06] the fact that he had Andy as an emotional shield,

[01:22:09] basically after operation Italy,

[01:22:10] because people would be mad at him.

[01:22:12] You know,

[01:22:12] you can say,

[01:22:13] I said,

[01:22:13] Oh,

[01:22:14] well,

[01:22:14] you know,

[01:22:14] Andy went above him and he didn't do it.

[01:22:16] But in knowing that he had Andy as that shield,

[01:22:18] if he's pushing that out of revenge,

[01:22:19] he is controlling that to a degree,

[01:22:21] maybe less on the Sierra vote,

[01:22:22] but there's some level of control there.

[01:22:25] Yeah.

[01:22:26] I think that there's a lot of moves there that he's making that are just

[01:22:30] like really subtle and strategic.

[01:22:33] And I think that he was really,

[01:22:35] really good.

[01:22:36] I mean,

[01:22:36] he spoke to it so well,

[01:22:37] I think at final tribal council,

[01:22:38] where did you,

[01:22:39] where did you,

[01:22:39] I'm going to throw out some of these kind of debates for you.

[01:22:42] And where do you sit on it?

[01:22:42] Cause like one of the big things was Genevieve's idol.

[01:22:46] Cause he was like,

[01:22:47] you know,

[01:22:47] we bluffed you with that.

[01:22:48] And she was like,

[01:22:49] well,

[01:22:50] we were always going to vote for Genevieve.

[01:22:52] I think that was a big thing on bluffing the idol.

[01:22:55] Like who,

[01:22:55] who wins that kind of battle for you on some of these like intricacies.

[01:22:59] That was so funny for me.

[01:23:00] That was such a funny moment because they make up,

[01:23:04] they make up this idol.

[01:23:05] Right.

[01:23:05] And then like,

[01:23:06] everybody's convinced.

[01:23:08] And then he goes back and it's like,

[01:23:09] guys,

[01:23:10] the other speaker,

[01:23:10] like you took this once.

[01:23:12] Why are we going to believe you now?

[01:23:15] So that was,

[01:23:16] that was such,

[01:23:17] it's,

[01:23:17] it's weird that you,

[01:23:18] I mean,

[01:23:19] most,

[01:23:19] most of the time it goes the opposite way.

[01:23:22] You go like,

[01:23:22] Hey,

[01:23:22] listen,

[01:23:23] I have an idol.

[01:23:24] I'm like,

[01:23:24] no,

[01:23:24] you don't like really have this idol.

[01:23:26] I'm like,

[01:23:26] you're lying,

[01:23:27] man.

[01:23:27] This is the other one.

[01:23:28] It's like,

[01:23:29] it's not an idol.

[01:23:29] Like,

[01:23:29] no,

[01:23:30] we know it is.

[01:23:30] Like,

[01:23:30] it's really not an idol.

[01:23:32] Yeah.

[01:23:33] Yeah.

[01:23:33] It was confusing for them.

[01:23:35] So it was,

[01:23:40] I think this,

[01:23:41] I think it's one of those things where I think you need to kind of see what

[01:23:44] happened and then just like it apart and look at it differently.

[01:23:46] Like they had this plan operationally Italy,

[01:23:48] like so many things like dominoes had to knock each other over for it to

[01:23:52] work.

[01:23:53] And then it did work.

[01:23:54] And I think you have to kind of wrap it up and say,

[01:23:56] okay,

[01:23:56] that's operation Italy.

[01:23:57] The mission was a success.

[01:24:00] Put it in the box.

[01:24:01] And then you say,

[01:24:02] okay,

[01:24:02] now let's,

[01:24:03] let's,

[01:24:04] let's see what happened now.

[01:24:05] I don't think you should kind of confuse it because whatever happens

[01:24:09] afterwards,

[01:24:09] they had to do operation Italy to get into that position.

[01:24:12] So it's not like they made a mistake that every single thing,

[01:24:15] And I think she just kind of leveraged the idol afterwards.

[01:24:20] Yeah.

[01:24:21] And then he tried to stop it.

[01:24:23] Well,

[01:24:24] that,

[01:24:24] yeah,

[01:24:25] that's,

[01:24:25] yeah.

[01:24:26] Yeah.

[01:24:27] And then,

[01:24:27] I mean,

[01:24:28] I mean,

[01:24:28] she still got it out,

[01:24:29] right.

[01:24:30] Well,

[01:24:31] yeah,

[01:24:32] well,

[01:24:33] he,

[01:24:33] well,

[01:24:33] I think that this is the thing is like,

[01:24:34] it was so defensive like that.

[01:24:36] And that's the defense is that,

[01:24:38] Oh,

[01:24:38] we bluffed you with the idol.

[01:24:39] And like they did,

[01:24:40] they bluffed to the split on seven.

[01:24:43] Although she said,

[01:24:44] if she was vulnerable,

[01:24:45] she would have played her vote block.

[01:24:46] But it's like,

[01:24:47] that's the thing.

[01:24:47] It's like,

[01:24:47] you bluffed it,

[01:24:48] but I was immune,

[01:24:50] you know,

[01:24:50] like it wasn't going to be me.

[01:24:51] I say myself in my perfect defensive game.

[01:24:53] And if I hadn't said myself,

[01:24:54] I would have still had the vote block.

[01:24:55] And that would have been my other defense while she also did have numbers.

[01:24:58] And then even at five,

[01:24:59] she's like,

[01:25:00] Oh,

[01:25:00] we had the numbers that would have ricocheted on you.

[01:25:02] Cause we split it.

[01:25:03] I spoke about the last week that split didn't make sense.

[01:25:05] Like,

[01:25:05] yeah,

[01:25:06] if they were bluffing it,

[01:25:08] if there was a real idol,

[01:25:09] like,

[01:25:10] you know,

[01:25:10] they could have ricocheted onto teeny.

[01:25:12] So it's not about like having the numbers to split because they didn't.

[01:25:15] But also,

[01:25:16] I guess at this point,

[01:25:17] they both wanted Genevieve out,

[01:25:18] but also Rachel's immune.

[01:25:20] Right.

[01:25:21] So it's like,

[01:25:22] you know,

[01:25:22] even like at that point,

[01:25:23] it's like,

[01:25:23] Oh,

[01:25:23] well,

[01:25:24] if Genevieve,

[01:25:24] I didn't care if Genevieve was lying because I don't like,

[01:25:27] I was going to make it through and I'm going to win out to the end.

[01:25:28] And I was going to sit here with my many,

[01:25:30] many immunity wins.

[01:25:31] So I think that's the thing for me is like,

[01:25:33] well,

[01:25:33] we bluffed Genevieve's idol.

[01:25:34] Like if I were her,

[01:25:35] I would say like,

[01:25:35] I didn't really mind.

[01:25:37] Like I wanted Genevieve out.

[01:25:38] I was always voting for Genevieve.

[01:25:39] I was hoping she would go.

[01:25:41] And if she didn't,

[01:25:41] anyone else could go and I would beat anyone at the end.

[01:25:43] I guess you could say,

[01:25:44] well,

[01:25:45] I mean like,

[01:25:45] yeah,

[01:25:45] if Genevieve had an idol,

[01:25:46] there's nothing they can do about it.

[01:25:47] And that's a harder immunity competitor.

[01:25:49] But like at every point,

[01:25:51] I think the defense is,

[01:25:52] but I was,

[01:25:52] I was,

[01:25:53] I defended myself in my perfect defensive game.

[01:25:55] What bluff or what,

[01:25:56] you know,

[01:25:57] like I'm still,

[01:25:57] I was still going to be there and survive to this point to talk about it.

[01:26:02] And I think that that for me is the bigger thing.

[01:26:04] Then whether they believe Genevieve or not.

[01:26:06] Cause I said last week,

[01:26:07] it doesn't really matter whether she believes Genevieve.

[01:26:09] She should be voting for Genevieve anyway,

[01:26:10] on the 1% chance that Genevieve goes home.

[01:26:12] And if teeny goes,

[01:26:13] gets ricocheted out,

[01:26:14] or if somehow there's a split vote with Sam,

[01:26:17] which,

[01:26:17] you know,

[01:26:17] wouldn't happen if they were working together,

[01:26:18] then Sam,

[01:26:19] whatever,

[01:26:19] either way,

[01:26:20] you know,

[01:26:20] take the shot of Genevieve.

[01:26:21] And if she goes,

[01:26:22] she goes.

[01:26:22] And if not,

[01:26:23] I'm here anyway.

[01:26:24] I'm you.

[01:26:25] I mean,

[01:26:25] this was,

[01:26:26] that's one of the mega things about this season,

[01:26:28] which I actually liked was the moment Jeff.

[01:26:34] Went.

[01:26:37] Accio shot him a dog and just grabbed all of them in.

[01:26:40] And they're out of the game.

[01:26:42] I think that was kind of,

[01:26:43] that was kind of way better because now it's not like,

[01:26:46] Oh,

[01:26:46] he's going to play shot him a dog.

[01:26:47] It's not going to be a swimmer dog.

[01:26:48] Then they had to come up other ways.

[01:26:50] And I don't know.

[01:26:50] I'm making fake idols,

[01:26:51] which just shows you,

[01:26:52] you just let the people play.

[01:26:54] They'll make up these things on their own.

[01:26:55] You don't need to give them like everybody a dice roll to get this kind

[01:26:59] of,

[01:26:59] um,

[01:27:00] kind of gameplay.

[01:27:02] And on top of that,

[01:27:04] because they were no shot in the dogs.

[01:27:05] I mean,

[01:27:05] I know Rachel played hers earlier there,

[01:27:08] but because they want to shot him a dog,

[01:27:09] people are a lot more like,

[01:27:10] okay,

[01:27:10] this is what I'm going to do.

[01:27:11] I'm sorry,

[01:27:12] bad news.

[01:27:12] It is you tonight.

[01:27:13] And then people kind of knew what was going to happen.

[01:27:16] So they kind of make plans and then kind of fold the game.

[01:27:20] So in a weird way,

[01:27:21] I think the shot getting taken out of a game and a weird way,

[01:27:25] kind of spiced up all these other plans,

[01:27:27] which made it a lot more exciting than some of this very elaborate strategy.

[01:27:32] We see to just get rid of a shot in the dogs.

[01:27:34] Um,

[01:27:35] yeah,

[01:27:36] well,

[01:27:36] the final seven would have been the last time to play the shot in the dark.

[01:27:38] And I'm so glad there wasn't a subplot of operation Italy of like,

[01:27:41] whether Genevieve's too scared to even go in on the three,

[01:27:43] two,

[01:27:43] two and play the shot in the dog.

[01:27:44] Like those votes only work perfectly with the one vote slim majority because

[01:27:49] everyone voted and we all knew they were voting and we could now three,

[01:27:52] two to it.

[01:27:53] Although if Sam played a shot in the dark,

[01:27:55] again,

[01:27:55] he couldn't,

[01:27:56] he's no,

[01:27:57] he's yeah,

[01:27:57] he could have hit seven.

[01:27:58] And if he got it wrong,

[01:27:58] he could have said,

[01:27:59] well,

[01:27:59] I didn't vote incorrectly.

[01:28:00] See you Sam.

[01:28:02] See you with the,

[01:28:03] with the,

[01:28:04] with the vote blocks.

[01:28:05] But yeah,

[01:28:05] I mean on Sam generally,

[01:28:07] I thought,

[01:28:08] um,

[01:28:09] yeah,

[01:28:09] I thought that he was great too.

[01:28:11] I thought it was an interesting battle.

[01:28:12] What do you think about Kyle voting for Sam?

[01:28:15] I thought,

[01:28:15] I thought he was going to get two votes.

[01:28:17] Um,

[01:28:18] um,

[01:28:18] yeah,

[01:28:18] I thought he was going to get two votes.

[01:28:20] I thought he was going to get serious votes.

[01:28:22] And then I thought he was going to,

[01:28:24] uh,

[01:28:25] to get Kyle's vote because I think they were kind of both doing this.

[01:28:29] Um,

[01:28:30] you know,

[01:28:31] they were both these like big bro guys,

[01:28:33] uh,

[01:28:34] like talking about the challenges or whatever.

[01:28:36] Um,

[01:28:36] and I think Kyle saw a kind of,

[01:28:38] uh,

[01:28:39] competitor in Sam,

[01:28:40] which,

[01:28:40] um,

[01:28:41] not that I'm saying Rachel isn't a competitor,

[01:28:43] not at all.

[01:28:44] Um,

[01:28:45] but I think they had that kind of connection of like,

[01:28:48] yeah,

[01:28:48] we are the two.

[01:28:50] It's just interesting because Kyle's 31 and Sam's 24.

[01:28:55] So that means a seven year,

[01:28:56] seven year Delta between them.

[01:28:58] Um,

[01:28:59] the way they kind of bonded on the island,

[01:29:01] you would like,

[01:29:02] you would think they were kind of like different strat bros or whatever.

[01:29:06] Um,

[01:29:07] yeah.

[01:29:08] So,

[01:29:10] yeah.

[01:29:10] And I mean,

[01:29:10] it's something I talk about our season.

[01:29:12] People are like,

[01:29:12] Oh,

[01:29:13] what the hell are you waiting for me?

[01:29:14] I'm like,

[01:29:15] well,

[01:29:15] I mean,

[01:29:15] my brother can do with it,

[01:29:16] what I want,

[01:29:17] but I always say in our season,

[01:29:20] I've said it many times,

[01:29:21] I think a six,

[01:29:23] four,

[01:29:23] zero,

[01:29:25] somebody who's been there and somebody who's watched it,

[01:29:26] I think it's a good representation of,

[01:29:28] I think,

[01:29:28] you know,

[01:29:29] the games that we played,

[01:29:30] I think if Rachel won nine or eight,

[01:29:33] zero,

[01:29:34] zero,

[01:29:35] I think seven,

[01:29:36] one,

[01:29:36] zero is maybe a good representation of the season.

[01:29:40] I don't,

[01:29:40] I don't think I'll made a mistake.

[01:29:42] Um,

[01:29:44] I think it,

[01:29:45] it just,

[01:29:45] yeah,

[01:29:45] I think it's a representation of the season.

[01:29:47] I think Rachel played the better game of the three finalists,

[01:29:49] but I don't think Sam's game was bad enough that she could zero votes.

[01:29:53] I think one or two votes is,

[01:29:55] but from what I've seen on the couch,

[01:29:57] I mean,

[01:29:57] Saul said this,

[01:29:58] like we're all,

[01:29:58] I wrote it down.

[01:30:00] He said,

[01:30:00] you know,

[01:30:00] we're all criticizing on TV.

[01:30:02] And then you forget that.

[01:30:04] And you're like,

[01:30:04] Oh,

[01:30:04] you don't know shit.

[01:30:06] That's what,

[01:30:07] um,

[01:30:08] and I,

[01:30:08] I think it's the same way.

[01:30:10] Yeah.

[01:30:10] We weren't there,

[01:30:11] but after sitting on the couch,

[01:30:12] I think seven one zero,

[01:30:15] what I saw is a reflection of the,

[01:30:17] uh,

[01:30:17] the outcome.

[01:30:18] Yeah.

[01:30:18] I mean,

[01:30:18] I do think like he's entitled to it for whoever he wants to,

[01:30:23] for me,

[01:30:23] that's the first thing.

[01:30:23] Like he seemed to have an important social relationship with Sam.

[01:30:26] I want to talk about this first,

[01:30:27] before just talking about a video I'd saw right before we came on,

[01:30:30] which where Carl explains what he was.

[01:30:31] But in terms of like him voting for Sam and again,

[01:30:34] like how much you believe of what he's saying now versus like,

[01:30:36] he said he was really close with Sam.

[01:30:37] I don't know what else he's going to say in the after show.

[01:30:39] Um,

[01:30:39] yeah,

[01:30:40] I mean,

[01:30:40] I think that he is entitled to that relationship.

[01:30:42] I think that there's something interesting around the fact that like,

[01:30:45] how did have a lot of these growing relationships,

[01:30:47] which is also valid,

[01:30:48] maybe,

[01:30:49] you know,

[01:30:50] not as much of something I would not respect or like,

[01:30:53] but like factor in as like the fact that like that,

[01:30:55] you know,

[01:30:55] women's alliance,

[01:30:56] I feel like,

[01:30:56] you know,

[01:30:56] when you're like fighting against something,

[01:30:58] which the women's alliances often try to and fail to,

[01:31:01] but like,

[01:31:01] even like,

[01:31:02] you know,

[01:31:02] some like minority alliances,

[01:31:04] I feel like that's different to kind of like throwing out.

[01:31:06] But again,

[01:31:07] this is what social relationships will lean to.

[01:31:09] That's why the diversity initiative is so important because like,

[01:31:11] like we'll see like,

[01:31:12] and I feel like for Carl,

[01:31:14] he's entitled to that relationship.

[01:31:16] I just think it's something that's interesting to note.

[01:31:18] I also think that like,

[01:31:19] again,

[01:31:19] like as a threat,

[01:31:20] Carl was there in the threats at the time with like Genevieve,

[01:31:23] Sam and himself,

[01:31:25] which actually I credit Rachel for a lot.

[01:31:27] So much through the mid game that she was like the top of the underdogs.

[01:31:30] Like Sam was in the biggest threat group is actually like a credit Rachel for that disparity.

[01:31:34] But,

[01:31:34] you know,

[01:31:34] Carl said that Sam's talking about how he got votes,

[01:31:37] which maybe you would see as a knock against you,

[01:31:38] but he has to like build up that he was a threat who Rachel also couldn't get out like she was.

[01:31:42] So I think that's impressive.

[01:31:43] So I think,

[01:31:44] yeah,

[01:31:44] I think he's totally entitled to vote for her.

[01:31:46] I actually said this on Twitter.

[01:31:48] I always want everyone to get a vote just for like the fact that I know how traumatic zero votes is.

[01:31:52] And like my bleeding heart is like,

[01:31:54] I want everyone to get a vote.

[01:31:55] Like for me,

[01:31:56] a six one one does not matter to an eight zero.

[01:31:58] I don't need the unanimous victory for the stats.

[01:32:00] I'd so much rather someone feels a little bit like affirmed in their game.

[01:32:04] Just like even the way Cassidy went to James and was like,

[01:32:06] did you vote for me?

[01:32:06] Like the meaning of that to have some acknowledgement,

[01:32:08] how difficult this is,

[01:32:09] it's something I prefer,

[01:32:10] but this is what Kyle said.

[01:32:12] I think it was in a cameo video that was posted to Twitter.

[01:32:15] He said he knew that Rachel would win.

[01:32:17] He thought Rachel should win.

[01:32:19] He likes them both,

[01:32:20] but he wanted to give Sam second place because he thought Sam's game was better than Sue.

[01:32:24] I don't know how much that was on like the Sue thing.

[01:32:26] I mean,

[01:32:26] look,

[01:32:26] honestly,

[01:32:27] if Sue Luke comes third for that relationship with Kyle,

[01:32:30] which I do think she had a big part to play.

[01:32:32] And I can't say that it was a hundred percent on her because again,

[01:32:35] I think the edit showed it one way and I wasn't in that dynamic,

[01:32:38] but like,

[01:32:38] yeah,

[01:32:38] that was a really bad social dynamic that like they,

[01:32:41] maybe they both have to wear.

[01:32:42] And as a juror,

[01:32:43] he can make her wear that.

[01:32:44] And that actually would fit.

[01:32:45] And I also think he's entitled to do that,

[01:32:47] but he's saying,

[01:32:48] he's saying that he,

[01:32:49] that's what he did.

[01:32:49] He did the second place vote.

[01:32:50] He did the,

[01:32:51] the Monica Culpepper over Jervis vote for Sam.

[01:32:55] Yeah.

[01:32:57] No,

[01:32:57] no,

[01:32:57] you're right.

[01:32:58] Everybody can,

[01:32:59] can,

[01:32:59] can vote for whoever wants to.

[01:33:00] I haven't seen,

[01:33:01] I haven't seen that clip,

[01:33:02] but I know,

[01:33:03] I mean,

[01:33:03] it's like a lot of times.

[01:33:05] I think it was a very niche clip.

[01:33:06] I don't know how I happened to see it,

[01:33:08] but yeah,

[01:33:08] that is what he said.

[01:33:09] Okay.

[01:33:11] no,

[01:33:11] but it's,

[01:33:12] it's interesting because I mean,

[01:33:13] I think that was one of the big,

[01:33:15] I think it wasn't that one of the big conversation points at Wonders at War,

[01:33:19] where some,

[01:33:20] some,

[01:33:20] so many people wanted to give Michelle votes because she thinks,

[01:33:23] because they thought she deserves second place,

[01:33:25] but.

[01:33:26] Yeah.

[01:33:26] They knew that there was like thing,

[01:33:28] like the whole thing between Tony.

[01:33:30] Um,

[01:33:31] and they didn't want to make sure that Tony lost so that they gave Tony.

[01:33:34] Yeah.

[01:33:34] So yeah.

[01:33:35] I think also jurors want to be right maybe.

[01:33:37] And they want to like feel like they're a part.

[01:33:38] So there's so much that goes into it.

[01:33:40] It just,

[01:33:40] in a perfect world,

[01:33:41] I would love for no one to ever get zero votes again,

[01:33:43] because it just is heartbreaking.

[01:33:44] But like,

[01:33:45] I think Kyle's entitled to do what he wants with that vote.

[01:33:48] Um,

[01:33:48] I don't think anything's particularly bad on voting for Sam at all.

[01:33:52] I have an opinion about Kyle.

[01:33:54] Well,

[01:33:54] that's not personally about his game in Survivor.

[01:33:58] So I've said this many times,

[01:34:00] and you know,

[01:34:00] I've spoken about this,

[01:34:01] how tribes who lose early,

[01:34:05] like go to travel two or three or four times,

[01:34:07] and then kind of,

[01:34:08] you get to travel six or whatever,

[01:34:10] I mean,

[01:34:10] you lose two,

[01:34:10] three,

[01:34:11] three people,

[01:34:11] and you get like,

[01:34:12] you got really small point.

[01:34:14] Um,

[01:34:14] are those small core people usually make very deep runs and get to the end

[01:34:19] and do well,

[01:34:20] because you learn how to fight and build the social connections and you learn

[01:34:26] how to scheme and wheel and deal,

[01:34:28] whatever.

[01:34:28] And I mean,

[01:34:29] you see,

[01:34:29] if you see this,

[01:34:30] this season,

[01:34:30] I mean,

[01:34:31] they,

[01:34:31] they lost John,

[01:34:32] they got up,

[01:34:33] they lost John,

[01:34:34] right.

[01:34:35] And then they lost Annika pretty much.

[01:34:37] And then kind of,

[01:34:38] you know,

[01:34:38] they all got to the end.

[01:34:40] Uh,

[01:34:40] well,

[01:34:40] they all got to the end.

[01:34:41] You have Sam and Rachel.

[01:34:42] Um,

[01:34:43] and then if you look at the,

[01:34:44] um,

[01:34:44] the,

[01:34:44] the,

[01:34:45] the,

[01:34:45] the lava guys,

[01:34:46] they lost,

[01:34:47] uh,

[01:34:47] Asia,

[01:34:47] uh,

[01:34:48] Sean and Rome.

[01:34:49] And then I like Genevieve and Tini were really good.

[01:34:52] Even though Tini was out of those,

[01:34:53] she was really good at kind of,

[01:34:54] you know,

[01:34:55] scrambling and making sure she gets to the end all the time.

[01:34:58] Now,

[01:35:00] Tuku went to travel second,

[01:35:02] the Verdal Tiki,

[01:35:03] Tuku,

[01:35:03] uh,

[01:35:03] the Verdal Tiki,

[01:35:05] Tuku went to travel second,

[01:35:07] Verdal Tiki.

[01:35:07] And then we didn't went,

[01:35:08] they didn't go ever again.

[01:35:09] Right.

[01:35:10] Um,

[01:35:11] and I think if you think about,

[01:35:13] I'm just,

[01:35:13] maybe I'm wrong.

[01:35:14] I'm just trying to imagine because Kyle is this kind of,

[01:35:17] I seem almost,

[01:35:18] almost as this younger version of Keith,

[01:35:20] this kind of very friendly,

[01:35:22] uh,

[01:35:22] good at carnival games,

[01:35:23] country guy.

[01:35:25] Who's just like,

[01:35:25] he's not,

[01:35:26] he's doesn't overthink life.

[01:35:28] He's just fun to be around.

[01:35:29] I think had he been in the tribe that went to travel three or four times,

[01:35:35] like,

[01:35:36] let's just say the two of them comes out.

[01:35:37] He would have been so gritty and be like,

[01:35:39] I need to make votes.

[01:35:40] I need to unbaked disconnection.

[01:35:42] I need to understand.

[01:35:42] I need to find a way.

[01:35:44] And then you get into merge of only the two of you.

[01:35:46] And you go like,

[01:35:46] okay,

[01:35:47] there's only two of us.

[01:35:48] We need to make a plan.

[01:35:49] And then you start roping in people and being a lot more strategic and

[01:35:52] thinking about what's going to happen.

[01:35:54] Not just what's going to happen in this,

[01:35:56] but we need to think long-term.

[01:35:57] There's only two of us,

[01:35:58] how to get more people.

[01:35:59] And I think that's,

[01:36:01] that's the type of games where these,

[01:36:03] these type of players,

[01:36:04] do really well in this season's rather,

[01:36:07] is if they lose a lot,

[01:36:09] but they are still physical first and they can navigate through to the

[01:36:12] end.

[01:36:13] Cause I think now what happened is they went once and then,

[01:36:15] you know,

[01:36:15] I got complacent.

[01:36:16] He was chilling in the Amarok,

[01:36:17] making all these connections and just like,

[01:36:19] and then he goes to the tribal.

[01:36:21] And then he said,

[01:36:21] he goes to the challenges and tells Jeff,

[01:36:23] Jeff,

[01:36:24] the moment I don't win immunity is the moment I'm going home.

[01:36:26] And he's not wrong,

[01:36:28] but he didn't kind of focus on all the other stuff.

[01:36:31] So it's just such a very interesting phenomena for me where,

[01:36:35] I mean,

[01:36:35] I'm using Carl and I as an example,

[01:36:36] but you see it so many times in season in this,

[01:36:39] especially the new era about tribes who don't go to tribal council often or

[01:36:44] early.

[01:36:46] You think,

[01:36:46] Oh,

[01:36:46] we go with this big majority into the,

[01:36:48] into the merge,

[01:36:49] but they're not battle hardened.

[01:36:51] They're not pressure tested.

[01:36:52] And they don't learn that skillset early on.

[01:36:55] And they struggle to kind of navigate the merge and make it to the end.

[01:36:58] So it's a small sample size,

[01:37:00] but it's just an observation.

[01:37:02] I've,

[01:37:03] I've,

[01:37:03] I've seen a lot of the,

[01:37:05] and survivor.

[01:37:06] And I think it's going to be some of these players detriment.

[01:37:09] Well,

[01:37:09] I don't think that's true of Carl though.

[01:37:11] Cause I feel like Kyle,

[01:37:12] you know,

[01:37:13] Kyle is not a very innovative player.

[01:37:14] Like Kyle is on the bottom and still doesn't put his hand in the bag to go for the vote block.

[01:37:20] Like,

[01:37:20] I don't know how much he could have been trained in the pre-emerge basically.

[01:37:24] And I think it is an interesting comparison because I think if we're going to talk about defensive games and Kyle's going to win a lot of immunities until he goes home.

[01:37:30] I think that that is the one note defensive game,

[01:37:32] which again,

[01:37:33] to me is very different,

[01:37:34] like comparing that to the fact that then Rachel is going to take the baton of winning immunities,

[01:37:38] but then she also has,

[01:37:39] you know,

[01:37:39] has shields as an out.

[01:37:41] She's so aware of her game.

[01:37:42] She also is adding all these other elements.

[01:37:44] She's maximizing it to its effect.

[01:37:46] You know,

[01:37:47] Kyle jumped on like,

[01:37:48] I think just a soul vote.

[01:37:49] And then otherwise like used up his shield with Gabe.

[01:37:51] He didn't think,

[01:37:51] you know,

[01:37:54] he would think,

[01:37:54] okay,

[01:37:55] let me,

[01:37:55] even when I'm immune,

[01:37:56] you know,

[01:37:56] keep more shields in,

[01:37:57] keep Gabe as a shield.

[01:37:58] I think that what he lacked in,

[01:38:00] in all of that,

[01:38:01] like,

[01:38:01] obviously he just had on the pathway of immunities.

[01:38:03] And I think it's interesting to compare it to the other immunity challenge beast in the season,

[01:38:07] who was Rachel.

[01:38:07] And I think when you,

[01:38:08] you make that comparison to at least someone in this season,

[01:38:10] if it's too much on Mike and Ben,

[01:38:12] you see that she was the like fully formed defensive.

[01:38:16] If they're both being defensive at different points in the game,

[01:38:18] she had a lot more that she was giving to that in so many different ways.

[01:38:22] And I think that that,

[01:38:23] like that makes a disparity pretty clear when we're saying that the ranking is way higher than these other defensive players.

[01:38:29] Because it's just in the way that she did it.

[01:38:31] Because I don't think Carl,

[01:38:32] Carl,

[01:38:32] Carl can't have immunity is just like Rachel can,

[01:38:34] but I don't think he can do the other things.

[01:38:36] And I think we see that disparity in the fact that she goes and gets,

[01:38:39] you know,

[01:38:40] you know,

[01:38:40] the vote block.

[01:38:41] And then she uses all these things so well,

[01:38:43] and she's considering shields and stuff the whole time.

[01:38:47] And she's kind of like leaning into the threat level when she needs to,

[01:38:49] and then protecting.

[01:38:50] Whereas Carl was just like really on the back foot.

[01:38:52] That's the defensive game,

[01:38:53] but it's like fighting for your life in a way that just had nothing to build from it in a way that Rachel,

[01:38:58] I think really did.

[01:39:00] I just want to mention,

[01:39:01] I know you probably,

[01:39:02] or you have talked about this,

[01:39:03] but that challenge about,

[01:39:06] for the block of out.

[01:39:08] Yes.

[01:39:08] Oh my God.

[01:39:09] What an epic challenge.

[01:39:11] It ruined my life.

[01:39:11] I mean,

[01:39:11] what a great,

[01:39:12] what a great design.

[01:39:13] It ruined my life,

[01:39:13] Jack.

[01:39:14] It's over.

[01:39:15] No,

[01:39:15] my,

[01:39:15] my life's over,

[01:39:16] Jack.

[01:39:17] Like genuinely,

[01:39:17] I don't think you understand.

[01:39:18] How many weeks ago was that?

[01:39:21] Four or five weeks ago?

[01:39:23] No,

[01:39:23] it wasn't,

[01:39:24] it was like what,

[01:39:24] three,

[01:39:24] four weeks ago?

[01:39:26] Yeah.

[01:39:26] Level 281 of WaterSort.

[01:39:30] WaterSort.

[01:39:30] It got me back into WaterSort,

[01:39:31] which is an addictive phone game where you have to put the colors back in the thing,

[01:39:34] and I genuinely can't stop.

[01:39:36] 281.

[01:39:37] Why?

[01:39:38] I don't.

[01:39:38] It's a drug.

[01:39:39] When did you,

[01:39:40] when did you get your,

[01:39:41] your Wordle first time?

[01:39:43] Was it between like last time we spoke?

[01:39:45] I remember some,

[01:39:46] you know,

[01:39:47] that was the best part of my year,

[01:39:48] by the way,

[01:39:49] when I got Wordle in one.

[01:39:50] Yeah.

[01:39:51] That was,

[01:39:52] that was in like September maybe,

[01:39:54] or maybe like October.

[01:39:55] Yeah.

[01:39:55] What was the word you had?

[01:39:56] What was the word?

[01:39:57] It was cloud.

[01:39:59] Cloud.

[01:39:59] Is that your starting word?

[01:40:00] Not anymore,

[01:40:01] but yeah,

[01:40:02] it was every day.

[01:40:03] It was crazy.

[01:40:03] Do you actually want to hear the story on the brief tangent of when I got Wordle in one?

[01:40:06] Yeah,

[01:40:06] absolutely.

[01:40:07] Tell me.

[01:40:07] Okay.

[01:40:08] Every night at midnight,

[01:40:09] Peter and I do Wordle together,

[01:40:10] and then connections.

[01:40:11] Okay.

[01:40:11] But sometimes Peter goes to sleep because he's a responsible person and I'm up to 3am now playing water sword.

[01:40:16] Not at the time,

[01:40:17] but so then sometimes I get so excited.

[01:40:19] So I just put in cloud because I just want to see what will happen.

[01:40:23] And like,

[01:40:24] also Peter and I have like jump off words.

[01:40:25] If there was like just one yellow,

[01:40:27] Oh,

[01:40:27] I might do point.

[01:40:28] Like I can,

[01:40:29] so I might go do the jump off words just because I'm so excited to do Wordle and I don't want to wait till he comes home from work the next day.

[01:40:34] So I put in cloud and then it turned green and I yelled.

[01:40:38] And because I was next to him in bed,

[01:40:39] he got woken as well.

[01:40:41] And then I was like,

[01:40:42] Oh my God,

[01:40:42] I got Wordle and Mom without you.

[01:40:43] And he missed it.

[01:40:44] And he was not pleased,

[01:40:45] Jacques.

[01:40:46] He wasn't pleased,

[01:40:46] but I was so excited to do it.

[01:40:47] And I got it in one.

[01:40:48] And he was unhappy,

[01:40:49] but I was like,

[01:40:49] don't be unhappy.

[01:40:50] This is the coolest thing that's ever happened to us.

[01:40:52] Okay.

[01:40:52] I'm so glad you asked.

[01:40:53] It was literally the best thing that ever happened to me.

[01:40:55] Thank you.

[01:40:56] I'm very happy.

[01:40:56] I'm very happy.

[01:40:57] Other than the drop.

[01:40:58] Yeah.

[01:40:59] I mean,

[01:40:59] I,

[01:40:59] I,

[01:41:01] I don't Wordle all the time,

[01:41:02] but my Wordle word always used to be horse.

[01:41:04] And then I checked,

[01:41:05] there's like this website that shows you all the words I had to start with.

[01:41:08] And then horse,

[01:41:09] I saw one day was actually the word of the day.

[01:41:11] That would have been nice.

[01:41:12] Yeah.

[01:41:12] We do it every day.

[01:41:13] We don't miss though.

[01:41:14] That's why.

[01:41:14] Sorry.

[01:41:15] You were saying about the challenge before I started talking about water sort.

[01:41:17] No,

[01:41:18] I'm saying the challenge is quite epic about that whole thing,

[01:41:20] like being like spooling,

[01:41:22] unspooling and then falling into the,

[01:41:24] into the water.

[01:41:25] That was such an epic kind of a challenge.

[01:41:28] I don't know who came up with that,

[01:41:29] but it's such a mega,

[01:41:31] mega cool challenge.

[01:41:32] I've never seen something like that,

[01:41:34] but then the most bizarre thing is like,

[01:41:37] it drags the whole table into water.

[01:41:39] So what if you're like,

[01:41:39] have your hand in and stuck?

[01:41:41] Or like,

[01:41:41] No,

[01:41:41] that's good.

[01:41:42] Yeah.

[01:41:42] Your bracelet gets caught.

[01:41:43] And we go,

[01:41:44] Oh,

[01:41:44] sorry.

[01:41:44] These guys haven't bought it.

[01:41:45] Well,

[01:41:46] the stakes are high.

[01:41:46] You better practice the horse.

[01:41:48] We can get this first out of the water.

[01:41:50] Yeah.

[01:41:51] Well,

[01:41:51] that's why you go to practice water sort.

[01:41:53] I genuinely,

[01:41:54] that,

[01:41:54] that was fun,

[01:41:55] but like I need an intervention.

[01:41:57] On water sort.

[01:41:59] So,

[01:41:59] and I paid,

[01:42:00] I paid $8 to get fewer ads,

[01:42:02] not even to get no ads.

[01:42:03] It didn't even work.

[01:42:04] I still have some ads.

[01:42:05] Let's just play it.

[01:42:06] I just wait for the ads.

[01:42:07] I get freaking junky.

[01:42:10] You have a New York times subscription,

[01:42:12] or do you only do word on connections?

[01:42:14] I only do word on connections.

[01:42:15] I don't.

[01:42:15] I,

[01:42:16] I get New York times articles a different way.

[01:42:19] Through less paid means.

[01:42:22] Sometimes.

[01:42:22] Right.

[01:42:22] Yeah.

[01:42:23] Because I've recently started doing it and I'm playing that,

[01:42:26] the one with you at,

[01:42:27] like the,

[01:42:28] the spanogram,

[01:42:29] it's called whatever.

[01:42:30] Oh yeah.

[01:42:31] With the letters.

[01:42:32] That's quite cool.

[01:42:33] Yeah.

[01:42:33] I get that as an ad sometimes.

[01:42:35] Yeah.

[01:42:35] When I'm playing water sort.

[01:42:37] Okay.

[01:42:39] Yeah.

[01:42:39] You should download water sort.

[01:42:41] That's so good.

[01:42:41] It's so good.

[01:42:42] Anyway,

[01:42:43] it's fine.

[01:42:43] This isn't an ad for water sort.

[01:42:45] It has enough ads,

[01:42:46] but I mean,

[01:42:46] yeah.

[01:42:47] Yeah.

[01:42:48] Okay.

[01:42:48] Well,

[01:42:48] do you have anything else?

[01:42:49] Do we get to the Chizzy?

[01:42:50] I want to talk about the Rome exit interview controversy,

[01:42:52] but I'm happy to do it after the Chizzy.

[01:42:53] I don't know.

[01:42:54] Yeah,

[01:42:54] we can do.

[01:42:54] I'm just checking a few of my notes.

[01:42:57] No shot in the dark.

[01:43:02] Yeah.

[01:43:02] I think that said everything.

[01:43:06] Oh,

[01:43:07] one,

[01:43:07] I mean,

[01:43:07] the one thing that's not really,

[01:43:09] it's not,

[01:43:10] I mean,

[01:43:10] I just want,

[01:43:10] I just meant note,

[01:43:11] but I think I want to mention it.

[01:43:12] I think what I liked about this season is a lot of the time we have

[01:43:16] all these kind of personal flashbacks.

[01:43:19] Like the origin story of every single player.

[01:43:21] And we didn't have it once a season.

[01:43:23] So I think we did have like in season flashbacks,

[01:43:27] but it was survivor related.

[01:43:29] And I felt that it was kind of refreshing.

[01:43:31] I know,

[01:43:32] you know,

[01:43:32] Jeff and then go back and forth about should be put in or whatever.

[01:43:36] But I find it kind of refreshing that we,

[01:43:38] the only stuff we saw was survivor related.

[01:43:41] There was very little kind of,

[01:43:43] Oh,

[01:43:43] this is my story about how I got X,

[01:43:46] Y,

[01:43:46] and Z diagnosed with this or whatever.

[01:43:48] And we just like watch the game within the context of survivor.

[01:43:51] Not that I'm saying we should diminish anything else.

[01:43:53] I just felt like a lot of this past seasons,

[01:43:55] I've just kind of one of recurring themes.

[01:43:57] And it was good to kind of just have a season where it was just about

[01:44:02] survivor.

[01:44:02] And I think this,

[01:44:03] even though we have now two hour episodes or 90 minute episodes,

[01:44:07] whatever.

[01:44:08] I think like the production people have started filling it in with kind of

[01:44:11] these flashbacks.

[01:44:12] And I think just letting the people play survivor without shorting the dogs

[01:44:19] actually makes compelling enough TV.

[01:44:21] I don't know why they don't understand.

[01:44:23] I don't know why the production people keep trying to,

[01:44:25] I know that like Jeff said,

[01:44:27] you know,

[01:44:27] it's,

[01:44:28] they're kind of here and then they go underground and they do a lot of

[01:44:30] things and they decide and they pop up again.

[01:44:32] And you kind of have the audience have to catch up with what they've decided

[01:44:35] to do in golf season.

[01:44:36] I get that.

[01:44:38] But,

[01:44:38] um,

[01:44:39] I just felt it'd be quite refreshing to just,

[01:44:42] you know,

[01:44:42] play,

[01:44:43] um,

[01:44:44] play survival without all these flashbacks and just let the game be,

[01:44:47] uh,

[01:44:48] front of center.

[01:44:49] But interestingly,

[01:44:50] I think what people have said as a,

[01:44:52] as a bit of a gap is that like,

[01:44:54] right.

[01:44:54] We didn't know that much about Rachel beyond the game,

[01:44:56] um,

[01:44:57] as a winner,

[01:44:58] like I think less compared to a lot of other people,

[01:45:00] but then also that you,

[01:45:02] as you're saying,

[01:45:03] I think that's a really good point.

[01:45:03] That was true across the board this season.

[01:45:06] Like even the people who had big journey edits,

[01:45:08] like Andy and teeny,

[01:45:09] it was very much in game.

[01:45:10] I'm trying to think like,

[01:45:11] how was the family man,

[01:45:12] but like who really stands out to you is like having a big personal story.

[01:45:16] Like I feel like it was very game based.

[01:45:19] I know people say they don't like it.

[01:45:21] I mean,

[01:45:21] I understand all the logistical reasons or the casting reasons why they don't

[01:45:24] want to do themes,

[01:45:25] but that's why that's the advantage of themes.

[01:45:27] You're like,

[01:45:28] okay,

[01:45:28] we have heroes,

[01:45:29] healers,

[01:45:29] hustlers.

[01:45:30] I get it.

[01:45:31] This person is a hustler.

[01:45:32] That's what it has to do in his life.

[01:45:33] So much Ben talks this podcast.

[01:45:35] Sorry.

[01:45:35] Yeah.

[01:45:36] Yeah.

[01:45:36] So much Ben talks this podcast,

[01:45:37] the hero,

[01:45:38] healer,

[01:45:38] hustler.

[01:45:39] Exactly.

[01:45:39] Exactly.

[01:45:40] So just having kind of a theme,

[01:45:41] even if it's just millennials versus Gen X,

[01:45:44] like here's a bunch of young people.

[01:45:45] Yes.

[01:45:46] A bunch of old people.

[01:45:47] And then you play the game.

[01:45:48] You don't have to horseshoe the theme into every single conversation,

[01:45:51] but at least you kind of,

[01:45:52] in your mind,

[01:45:52] you just like put one,

[01:45:56] what's a blocker and English.

[01:45:57] What's it called?

[01:45:58] Like a label or a,

[01:46:00] what do you think you put on a dress,

[01:46:02] Dr.

[01:46:02] Ross,

[01:46:02] what's the,

[01:46:03] like a tag.

[01:46:04] A label.

[01:46:04] Oh yeah.

[01:46:05] Name tag.

[01:46:05] Yeah.

[01:46:05] Let's say just one,

[01:46:06] one tag,

[01:46:06] which you put on your mind.

[01:46:07] I'm like,

[01:46:07] okay,

[01:46:08] this,

[01:46:08] this is the brain versus brawn season.

[01:46:11] Okay.

[01:46:11] These person,

[01:46:12] he's in the brain tribe.

[01:46:13] I get it.

[01:46:14] Um,

[01:46:15] so anyway,

[01:46:18] I'm partial to the backstories.

[01:46:21] I like a lot of the personal content.

[01:46:22] I thought this even could have pushed it a little more,

[01:46:24] but now that I'm realizing like,

[01:46:27] not just for Rachel,

[01:46:28] like across the board,

[01:46:29] it was pretty low on personal content,

[01:46:31] but there was so much game personal content,

[01:46:32] like Genevieve,

[01:46:33] all that stuff was like in the game.

[01:46:35] It was an interesting way to go about it.

[01:46:37] And it was compelling in its own way.

[01:46:38] I do love a backstory,

[01:46:39] but like,

[01:46:40] yeah,

[01:46:40] it is.

[01:46:41] It's a,

[01:46:41] it's quite unique as a season from that because I'm really looking at

[01:46:43] it and struggling to find a contestant who had a big backstory or

[01:46:47] something like out of game thing.

[01:46:50] With John and Asia,

[01:46:51] we're like,

[01:46:51] we are podcasters.

[01:46:52] And like,

[01:46:52] I know you,

[01:46:53] you're a podcaster.

[01:46:54] So that's like this whole thing in the beginning.

[01:46:55] And I thought they were kind of now that now they're going to tell

[01:46:58] everybody's story.

[01:46:58] And then we just stopped like off the two people.

[01:47:00] Yeah,

[01:47:01] that's true.

[01:47:01] I mean,

[01:47:01] like they always have to come in and talk about their traumas and like,

[01:47:03] yeah,

[01:47:03] I'm a podcaster.

[01:47:04] I think that's a very fair trauma.

[01:47:07] So that would be my trauma.

[01:47:09] Um,

[01:47:10] okay.

[01:47:10] Let's talk about the,

[01:47:11] let's do the chisney.

[01:47:12] Take it away,

[01:47:12] Jacob.

[01:47:12] Are we now doing,

[01:47:13] things go and talking about the chisney?

[01:47:15] Yes.

[01:47:16] And I've,

[01:47:16] I've got some controversial takes on it.

[01:47:18] Take it away,

[01:47:18] Jacob,

[01:47:19] take it,

[01:47:19] weinstein and MC color.

[01:47:22] One,

[01:47:22] two,

[01:47:23] three.

[01:47:32] All right.

[01:47:33] This is better because usually when we do this,

[01:47:37] like peeking behind the curtain,

[01:47:38] you just say,

[01:47:39] we're going to do the chisney.

[01:47:40] And then you cut and then we drink water and then we come back.

[01:47:43] And then it gets added in afterwards,

[01:47:45] post-production.

[01:47:47] Now with a live feed,

[01:47:48] I actually get to groove along with the tune.

[01:47:50] So,

[01:47:50] uh,

[01:47:50] it was actually better.

[01:47:52] It was really easy to always put the music and it was one button.

[01:47:54] I just didn't know how to do it.

[01:47:55] And I never bothered to learn.

[01:47:57] Jack,

[01:47:59] I'm going to rig the chisney.

[01:48:01] Are you going to rig it?

[01:48:03] Okay.

[01:48:03] She's not showing me this.

[01:48:05] I'm going to rig the chisney.

[01:48:07] Oh my God.

[01:48:07] I can't.

[01:48:08] I'm like,

[01:48:09] I'm feeling anxious about it.

[01:48:11] I decided to rig the chisney.

[01:48:13] Um,

[01:48:15] okay.

[01:48:16] Do you want me to explain that?

[01:48:17] Or do you want to give you all points before I rig the chisney?

[01:48:19] Explain what you want to say.

[01:48:21] I have a question.

[01:48:22] What happens in the event of a draw?

[01:48:23] That's my question.

[01:48:24] In the event of a tie,

[01:48:25] everyone wins.

[01:48:26] That's what we decided last season when drew,

[01:48:28] well,

[01:48:28] not last season,

[01:48:28] last year when drew and D did tie.

[01:48:31] Um,

[01:48:32] yes.

[01:48:33] So that's the way that we went about it.

[01:48:34] And then everyone would have to get mugs,

[01:48:36] which Rob would have to pay for.

[01:48:39] And.

[01:48:39] Okay.

[01:48:40] Here's where we're at in the chisney,

[01:48:41] right?

[01:48:42] Genevieve's on 25 points.

[01:48:43] If Rachel gets six points,

[01:48:45] which I assume you're going to give her three,

[01:48:47] I'd be shocked if you don't.

[01:48:48] And I'd probably have,

[01:48:49] I'd probably be upset,

[01:48:51] but if she gets six points and she's on 25,

[01:48:54] but Sam is on 22 points.

[01:48:56] So Sam could still get four for being,

[01:48:58] I think pretty clearly the second best player.

[01:49:00] In the episode,

[01:49:01] he had a great final tribal council.

[01:49:02] I think even slightly,

[01:49:03] even better than Rachel's final tribal council wins fire.

[01:49:08] Um,

[01:49:09] again,

[01:49:09] he'd be a solid winner if he could get Rachel out,

[01:49:11] but he didn't get Rachel out.

[01:49:12] But if he gets two points from me and two points from you,

[01:49:14] he's going to win the chisney on one point,

[01:49:15] even though obviously he did not win the game.

[01:49:19] Or if you give him two points,

[01:49:20] I could give him one point and I could make a three-way chisney tie.

[01:49:24] And,

[01:49:24] um,

[01:49:25] I'm going to do it.

[01:49:26] So.

[01:49:27] I'm going to do it.

[01:49:29] I,

[01:49:29] I,

[01:49:32] I believe in the sanctity of a chisney.

[01:49:34] Yeah.

[01:49:35] So I don't want to be in a position where I need to compromise this thing.

[01:49:39] We've been doing.

[01:49:40] I'm not asking you to,

[01:49:41] I'm not,

[01:49:41] I'm happy to get my hands dirty.

[01:49:43] If you are willing,

[01:49:44] if you are willing to take the fallout,

[01:49:47] to base myself and take the hit.

[01:49:49] Um,

[01:49:50] I am now putting in disclaimer that I am watching my hands and washing my hands

[01:49:55] in innocence.

[01:49:55] You're complicit.

[01:49:56] You're here right now.

[01:49:57] Oh,

[01:49:57] I will go first.

[01:49:58] Okay.

[01:49:59] And then I am not,

[01:50:00] I know what I'm going to do in any way implicated.

[01:50:02] And,

[01:50:03] uh,

[01:50:03] this blasphemous decision that is being made about the chisney.

[01:50:07] So I will go first.

[01:50:08] Okay.

[01:50:09] That's very dramatic,

[01:50:10] but I will go first.

[01:50:12] yes,

[01:50:13] I will give one chisney point to,

[01:50:17] uh,

[01:50:18] I'll stop with three.

[01:50:19] I'll give three to Rachel.

[01:50:20] Yeah.

[01:50:22] Yeah.

[01:50:22] Spoke about it at length.

[01:50:23] Yeah.

[01:50:24] There's not too much to say.

[01:50:26] I will give a super two to Sam.

[01:50:29] I think,

[01:50:30] like you said,

[01:50:31] he made fire.

[01:50:32] He came second.

[01:50:34] Um,

[01:50:35] it would be a crime not to,

[01:50:37] then,

[01:50:37] I mean,

[01:50:37] there's four people left.

[01:50:39] Um,

[01:50:40] and then I would,

[01:50:41] I have to give my final one.

[01:50:43] I'm giving it to teeny.

[01:50:44] I think had Sue and a bit more of the idol.

[01:50:48] Um,

[01:50:49] maybe you could have made a case,

[01:50:50] but I think teeny was,

[01:50:51] he was preseason.

[01:50:53] My winner pick.

[01:50:54] So I'm not,

[01:50:54] that's not why I am giving her the chisney.

[01:50:57] Um,

[01:50:58] not the reason why,

[01:50:59] but,

[01:51:00] um,

[01:51:01] I think she had a compelling arc.

[01:51:02] And I know a lot of people online complain about game bots.

[01:51:05] And then now the same issue is emotional and this and that.

[01:51:08] You know,

[01:51:08] you can't have your cake.

[01:51:09] You need to.

[01:51:10] So people don't just watch the game and not say negative stuff about people.

[01:51:14] If they don't like them,

[01:51:15] just keep your negative opinion yourself.

[01:51:17] Those people hurt people.

[01:51:19] So don't.

[01:51:20] Um,

[01:51:21] and,

[01:51:22] uh,

[01:51:22] yeah,

[01:51:22] so that's why I give my three to one is a Rachel,

[01:51:25] Sam and teeny.

[01:51:25] So I don't know if you want to update the spreadsheet and then update it in real time,

[01:51:30] but we can,

[01:51:30] well,

[01:51:31] so here's where he's,

[01:51:32] I want to explain something first up.

[01:51:33] All right.

[01:51:34] Because I,

[01:51:34] I texted my brother and I said,

[01:51:37] I'm going to read the chizzy.

[01:51:38] People have been messaging me and saying,

[01:51:40] I think we should rig,

[01:51:41] should you rig the chizzy?

[01:51:42] And,

[01:51:42] and he was like,

[01:51:44] how do you live with yourself?

[01:51:46] And I was like,

[01:51:47] Hey,

[01:51:48] you think it's easy doing the chizzy?

[01:51:51] Okay.

[01:51:52] We spoke about it.

[01:51:53] Exactly.

[01:51:54] You think it's easy being,

[01:51:55] and you think it's all fun and games.

[01:51:56] I was like,

[01:51:57] you,

[01:51:57] you,

[01:51:58] you don't want to know how the sausage gets made,

[01:52:00] but you're happy to eat the hot dog.

[01:52:01] You know,

[01:52:01] everyone's okay with a three-way chizzy tie.

[01:52:04] Cause that's so fun and exciting and it feels right.

[01:52:06] But when I have to come in and rig the chizzy,

[01:52:08] I'm the bad guy.

[01:52:09] I'm the crazy person.

[01:52:11] And he was like,

[01:52:11] I don't even recognize you right now.

[01:52:13] And anyway,

[01:52:13] I wouldn't bore you with the back and forth.

[01:52:14] But my point is I want to maintain a relationship with my brother,

[01:52:18] but I care more about getting a three-way chizzy tie.

[01:52:20] And the reasons that I've,

[01:52:22] that I've retconned this to make sense for me is firstly,

[01:52:26] the chizzy does have gaps.

[01:52:28] Is it,

[01:52:28] is it perfect?

[01:52:29] We've,

[01:52:30] and we've said this whole time earlier in the season,

[01:52:32] I said,

[01:52:32] the chizzy is not perfect.

[01:52:33] Okay.

[01:52:34] There are gaps.

[01:52:35] Here are the gaps.

[01:52:36] Genevieve edit in the first three episodes was atrocious.

[01:52:39] You definitely get three points.

[01:52:43] Looking at it now,

[01:52:44] she got two points.

[01:52:47] So she could have got six points.

[01:52:48] She got two points.

[01:52:49] Those are the edits.

[01:52:51] So that is already like probably Genevieve would have run away and won.

[01:52:55] Had we known how good she was on early lava,

[01:52:57] but we didn't know that.

[01:52:58] Sam,

[01:52:59] to be fair,

[01:52:59] the gap in the chizzy,

[01:53:00] Randy Newport,

[01:53:01] who does the charts went and looked and said,

[01:53:03] you know,

[01:53:04] because when we have three people,

[01:53:05] we do a two one one and there's a worse one and a better one.

[01:53:08] And he had one better one.

[01:53:09] So he'd actually be one point ahead of where he's even at.

[01:53:12] If it was in a regular three,

[01:53:14] two one,

[01:53:15] if those were points.

[01:53:16] Anyway,

[01:53:16] it's hard to game it when there's three people,

[01:53:18] but that's a little bit of a numerical issue.

[01:53:21] Then.

[01:53:23] Yeah.

[01:53:24] Rachel.

[01:53:24] I mean,

[01:53:25] Rachel's got these big swings where she individually wins.

[01:53:28] Like as well as Sam did in this episode,

[01:53:30] the second he lets Rachel win immunity,

[01:53:32] his only job is to make sure Rachel doesn't want immunity and then doesn't

[01:53:35] win fire immediately wins immunity.

[01:53:36] That's a loss for everyone.

[01:53:37] Is he two thirds as good as her when she's wanted in the first.

[01:53:41] And this,

[01:53:41] I don't think so.

[01:53:43] So I do think that that makes sense.

[01:53:46] You know,

[01:53:46] like I think,

[01:53:47] yeah,

[01:53:47] at the point where he's even trying to argue,

[01:53:49] you wanted me out.

[01:53:50] Well,

[01:53:50] the same thing.

[01:53:50] She was first.

[01:53:51] You were second.

[01:53:51] And she prefer if second was out,

[01:53:53] but you needed first.

[01:53:54] And the game was lost at that point.

[01:53:56] He did as best as he could.

[01:53:57] And it was still a seven to one loss.

[01:53:59] So is he two thirds as good as her?

[01:54:02] I think not.

[01:54:03] So I've also come up with some stuff for why I'm going to give two points to

[01:54:06] Tini.

[01:54:07] Firstly,

[01:54:07] three points to Rachel that puts her on 25 with Genevieve now tying at the

[01:54:10] top.

[01:54:11] And how much of a travesty if that rivalry wasn't cemented in a chizzy

[01:54:15] win in a tight chizzy win.

[01:54:17] Two points to Tini for me.

[01:54:19] I am firstly,

[01:54:20] I love Tini so much.

[01:54:21] And I genuinely think this isn't necessarily a game thing,

[01:54:24] but the way that Tini spoke to their own projections about how they were

[01:54:27] projecting on Sam and was so vulnerable in that.

[01:54:30] And on a global stage,

[01:54:32] put up a spotlight to their own insecurities and weaknesses.

[01:54:35] I think most people human as a young human,

[01:54:38] I think it's phenomenal.

[01:54:39] And I think the way that Sam has received that and given so much grace is

[01:54:42] also phenomenal.

[01:54:43] And for two young people,

[01:54:44] I think that they are exceptional.

[01:54:45] I say young,

[01:54:46] they're like seven years younger than me,

[01:54:47] but anyway,

[01:54:48] it's tough on a global stage.

[01:54:49] And I don't think,

[01:54:50] I don't think most people could do that at any age.

[01:54:53] So I'm super impressed with that.

[01:54:54] I think as well,

[01:54:55] like we were pretty hard on Tini in the last few weeks falling for

[01:54:59] Operation Italy,

[01:55:00] but even hearing from some of the exits,

[01:55:02] there are still gaps that Tini clearly thought that they were getting one

[01:55:05] over on Genevieve and Sam in Operation Italy,

[01:55:07] or maybe didn't consider that Genevieve would even consider us.

[01:55:11] The way that they were talking,

[01:55:13] like Sam has talked about the relationship with Tini then,

[01:55:16] like I see how Tini thought they were like a proxy in like what ended up

[01:55:19] being the Andy spot to Genevieve and Sam.

[01:55:21] So we were hard.

[01:55:22] Not that I would have ever given Tini points.

[01:55:23] I think that was,

[01:55:24] but I just want to say,

[01:55:25] you know,

[01:55:25] we get a lot of information from the exits after the finale.

[01:55:28] And I see how Tini was judging those relationships and those working

[01:55:33] relationships,

[01:55:33] even though I do also judge Tini for thinking that they were like

[01:55:37] single-handedly getting one over on Genevieve and Sam without

[01:55:39] thinking that they would think there'd be a split and would be

[01:55:42] trying to like be like,

[01:55:43] well,

[01:55:43] what's happening with the split?

[01:55:44] And anyway,

[01:55:45] it was a little bit.

[01:55:46] This was weeks ago,

[01:55:46] but anyway,

[01:55:47] I'm giving two points for Tini on a human.

[01:55:50] Then one point I'm giving to Sam.

[01:55:52] So now Sam is with Genevieve and with Rachel.

[01:55:57] And do we feel good about it?

[01:55:58] Am I spiraling?

[01:55:59] Is this okay?

[01:56:00] I feel,

[01:56:01] is this fine?

[01:56:05] Listen,

[01:56:06] Shannon.

[01:56:07] Yeah.

[01:56:08] I've watched,

[01:56:08] I've watched Sopranos.

[01:56:10] I've watched Breaking Bad.

[01:56:12] I've seen Tony Soprano justify his actions to his wife.

[01:56:16] He listened to that.

[01:56:18] I've seen Walter Watts trying to justify saying what he's doing,

[01:56:22] he's doing,

[01:56:22] he's from his family,

[01:56:23] even though he keeps killing people after he's made more money than he

[01:56:26] needs.

[01:56:27] So you can do whatever justification you want.

[01:56:29] I'm watching my,

[01:56:30] I'm watching my hands and inset.

[01:56:32] You can do whatever justification you want.

[01:56:36] I,

[01:56:37] yes,

[01:56:37] you made the choice.

[01:56:38] I gave my points in good faith.

[01:56:40] Uh,

[01:56:41] as an honest,

[01:56:41] so I'm a Protestant citizen.

[01:56:43] If you want to say win over Rachel,

[01:56:46] but then I'll probably,

[01:56:47] I'll,

[01:56:48] I'll bring it again.

[01:56:49] I'm going to do the math.

[01:56:49] I'll keep bringing.

[01:56:51] But,

[01:56:52] but,

[01:56:52] but if you told me,

[01:56:54] if you told me,

[01:56:55] if I did the,

[01:56:56] if I did the opening podcast and I gave my choices,

[01:56:59] and then we get to the end,

[01:57:00] and then,

[01:57:00] and then,

[01:57:01] uh,

[01:57:03] legit or unaltered way,

[01:57:05] doesn't matter.

[01:57:05] You say there was a three-way tie of the season between Genevieve,

[01:57:08] Sam and Rachel.

[01:57:10] I would say,

[01:57:11] well,

[01:57:12] there's a good representation of the season.

[01:57:13] I think they each deserve a Chessie cup.

[01:57:15] That's good.

[01:57:16] Well,

[01:57:16] well done.

[01:57:17] So I'm not happy.

[01:57:18] Exactly.

[01:57:19] Exactly.

[01:57:19] I'm happy with the outcome.

[01:57:21] Oh,

[01:57:21] you eat the hot dog.

[01:57:23] But you don't want to tell the stuff she gets made.

[01:57:25] Yep.

[01:57:25] Mm.

[01:57:26] Mm.

[01:57:28] So I'm happy with the outcome.

[01:57:30] You agree?

[01:57:31] You agree with what's been done?

[01:57:32] I agree with the outcome.

[01:57:34] But not how it was done.

[01:57:35] But it's unfortunate to have to be the person rigging the Chessie.

[01:57:38] Okay.

[01:57:38] It's unfortunate to give up my integrity.

[01:57:40] All of that stuff is not great.

[01:57:45] It's not.

[01:57:46] Right.

[01:57:46] It's not.

[01:57:47] But I think,

[01:57:47] I think that it makes sense to have this three-way tie.

[01:57:50] Right.

[01:57:50] And can I say as well.

[01:57:52] Has there ever been a three-way tie?

[01:57:53] No.

[01:57:54] There was only one two-way tie a year ago.

[01:57:55] And we're going to send out a ton of mugs to the point where literally once six of the

[01:57:59] cast is getting mugs,

[01:58:01] nothing has meaning,

[01:58:02] but it feels right.

[01:58:03] And it's good.

[01:58:03] Sam's game was great.

[01:58:05] Rachel's a great winner.

[01:58:06] Genevieve.

[01:58:06] Paula.

[01:58:07] All of them will get mugs.

[01:58:08] And I think that,

[01:58:09] and also one more thing.

[01:58:11] And how I justified it for myself.

[01:58:13] Yes.

[01:58:14] Teenie,

[01:58:14] to be fair,

[01:58:15] is better at fire than we gave them credit for.

[01:58:19] And is one wind blow away from,

[01:58:23] I think,

[01:58:23] $100,000.

[01:58:24] I think solidly quotes for Teenie.

[01:58:27] And I thought,

[01:58:28] like Sam has confirmed in exits that he didn't like position the fire any which way to protect

[01:58:33] against the wind.

[01:58:34] And so one gust of wind is what separates Teenie and Sam from possibly being in the 7-1 position.

[01:58:42] So it doesn't really matter.

[01:58:43] Have I done enough to wash my hands of this or is it still not okay?

[01:58:47] Oh,

[01:58:47] we'll leave it over.

[01:58:48] We'll see what people say.

[01:58:50] My Twitter blows up and I get notifications.

[01:58:52] People will love this.

[01:58:53] People will be so happy.

[01:58:55] All the YouTube chats,

[01:58:56] because now it's video as well.

[01:58:58] So we'll read the YouTube comments.

[01:59:00] I don't read them.

[01:59:01] You not read them or do you read them?

[01:59:03] No,

[01:59:04] I don't read YouTube comments.

[01:59:05] I don't,

[01:59:05] I try not to read anything that isn't sent directly to me.

[01:59:08] Although sometimes people do send mean things to me directly,

[01:59:10] but like,

[01:59:11] I don't need to see what people say about me when they think,

[01:59:14] when I'm not meant to be listening.

[01:59:17] I've done a lot of work in therapy for that.

[01:59:19] I actually got over that addiction,

[01:59:20] checking the comments about myself.

[01:59:22] And now I need to get over my addiction to water sort.

[01:59:24] So I think if I can get over that,

[01:59:26] I can probably.

[01:59:27] When are you going to get over your wordle addiction,

[01:59:29] Shannon?

[01:59:29] Never,

[01:59:30] ever.

[01:59:30] I literally,

[01:59:30] I said that to Peter a few months ago.

[01:59:31] I said,

[01:59:31] are we just going to do wordle every day until we die?

[01:59:33] And I hope we do.

[01:59:35] It's the highlight of my nature.

[01:59:36] There's not going to be words left.

[01:59:38] You know,

[01:59:38] cloud's going to come around and be the word a second time.

[01:59:41] There's not going to be words left.

[01:59:41] You're going to have a different word and it's going to be cloud.

[01:59:42] And you're going to be so disappointed when all the English words

[01:59:45] and the five letter vocabulary has been used.

[01:59:48] And you come back full circle and the second time it comes around.

[01:59:52] Firstly,

[01:59:52] my other word might now come up,

[01:59:54] which would be good.

[01:59:55] How many five letter words are there in the,

[01:59:58] I can't type so fast in the English language.

[02:00:04] It's not coming up.

[02:00:05] This is good podcasting.

[02:00:07] Okay.

[02:00:07] I'm going to let you know what my phone updates,

[02:00:09] but anyway,

[02:00:09] three way chissey tie.

[02:00:11] Three way chissey tie.

[02:00:12] There are 158,000 five letter words.

[02:00:16] That's going to be your next,

[02:00:17] your next word.

[02:00:18] Three.

[02:00:20] That would be a terrible word.

[02:00:22] It's a terrible word.

[02:00:24] But I mean,

[02:00:24] sometimes these words comes up and then you can say,

[02:00:26] I've had it.

[02:00:27] Shannon,

[02:00:27] can I share something with you?

[02:00:29] Can I present my screen?

[02:00:31] No,

[02:00:31] actually.

[02:00:33] You can,

[02:00:34] you,

[02:00:34] I can't see it because that's not,

[02:00:36] you have to add,

[02:00:37] you have to do share screen.

[02:00:39] Yeah.

[02:00:39] Wait,

[02:00:40] wait.

[02:00:40] I don't know if you can.

[02:00:42] Okay.

[02:00:42] In the meantime,

[02:00:43] well done.

[02:00:43] Oh,

[02:00:43] it's going to work.

[02:00:49] Are you looking at my screen?

[02:00:50] My screen.

[02:00:51] Should I take that away?

[02:00:52] Oh,

[02:00:53] it is.

[02:00:53] Why are you taking it away?

[02:00:54] Okay,

[02:00:54] good.

[02:00:54] There we go.

[02:00:56] Okay.

[02:00:56] You know the band Lincoln Park,

[02:00:58] right?

[02:00:58] Yes.

[02:00:59] Okay.

[02:01:00] Long story.

[02:01:01] I'm not going to get into the details,

[02:01:02] but it's my favorite band of all time.

[02:01:04] Okay.

[02:01:04] They made a new album.

[02:01:06] It's called From Zero.

[02:01:07] That's nice.

[02:01:07] I don't know if you know this.

[02:01:09] I don't.

[02:01:10] They've made new,

[02:01:11] they've made new album.

[02:01:12] After Chesting,

[02:01:13] Beddington died.

[02:01:13] They got this girl singing for them,

[02:01:15] Emily Armstrong.

[02:01:15] It is hardcore cool.

[02:01:18] Really.

[02:01:18] It is mega.

[02:01:20] It is my favorite band of all time.

[02:01:22] And they made an album after nobody in the world thought they would make music again.

[02:01:26] I watched them live in London.

[02:01:28] It was insane.

[02:01:29] Mind blowing experience watching them live.

[02:01:31] Okay.

[02:01:32] I'm confused about where we're at.

[02:01:34] Sorry?

[02:01:34] I'm confused about what's happening.

[02:01:36] You will see quite clearly.

[02:01:38] You mentioned to me that you once had a podcast with Rob,

[02:01:40] where you mentioned all the Taylor Swift songs.

[02:01:42] And then afterwards he didn't care about,

[02:01:43] you mentioned all the albums and then he didn't care.

[02:01:45] Yeah.

[02:01:45] Oh,

[02:01:46] have you been doing it?

[02:01:46] Oh my gosh.

[02:01:48] So if you just go,

[02:01:49] this year,

[02:01:51] here's the name of,

[02:01:52] here's the song list,

[02:01:53] the track list of the album.

[02:01:55] I'll scroll in slightly.

[02:01:56] You cannot see it.

[02:01:57] Okay.

[02:01:59] I have in this podcast because there wasn't that much strategy.

[02:02:03] I had to find some other way to make it.

[02:02:06] We got to a lot.

[02:02:06] I have used all of these songs.

[02:02:10] What's the podcast?

[02:02:10] Yeah.

[02:02:13] It means.

[02:02:15] I gave you everything I had.

[02:02:16] It's a,

[02:02:16] it's a,

[02:02:18] I didn't say I G Y E I H.

[02:02:20] I just said,

[02:02:20] I gave you everything I had,

[02:02:21] which is what they say in the song.

[02:02:23] You said the emptiness machine.

[02:02:25] I did.

[02:02:26] I said,

[02:02:27] uh,

[02:02:28] it wasn't the,

[02:02:29] what season of Gabler one season 43.

[02:02:31] I said,

[02:02:31] this wasn't the emptiness machine of season 43.

[02:02:33] Oh,

[02:02:34] and I laughed at that.

[02:02:34] But I didn't think there was anything wrong with that because I was like,

[02:02:36] that is some way that someone might refer to that.

[02:02:38] That wasn't empty though.

[02:02:40] Okay.

[02:02:40] The Cody bit was very good.

[02:02:41] So I'm just saying,

[02:02:42] I'm just saying,

[02:02:43] I don't know if you are going to impress like,

[02:02:45] I'm like,

[02:02:46] you said Rob wasn't a person.

[02:02:47] You mentioned all the,

[02:02:48] uh,

[02:02:48] the Taylor Swift.

[02:02:49] Yeah.

[02:02:50] But I mentioned every single album,

[02:02:52] every single song from this album.

[02:02:53] I wear my tiara.

[02:02:56] Sorry.

[02:02:57] I'm wearing my tiara and you thought you'd get one over on me.

[02:03:00] I'm the queen this week.

[02:03:01] No,

[02:03:02] it's not getting your,

[02:03:02] I was just,

[02:03:03] uh,

[02:03:03] I was just saying that because we last time we did the Taylor Swift thing and I

[02:03:06] didn't have a musical element to it.

[02:03:07] And,

[02:03:08] uh,

[02:03:08] I couldn't do it again.

[02:03:09] Um,

[02:03:11] so I just wanted to know that this album is cool.

[02:03:13] If you like Lincoln Park and this kind of rap and rock music.

[02:03:16] And,

[02:03:16] uh,

[02:03:17] just in,

[02:03:17] in terms of not having so much strategy to focus on,

[02:03:20] I kind of give myself a new objective.

[02:03:22] This,

[02:03:22] this episode is to see how many of these songs.

[02:03:25] Oh,

[02:03:25] can I do it in order?

[02:03:26] And if you would,

[02:03:27] I'm glad you didn't know the album because you would have maybe picked up on

[02:03:30] it.

[02:03:31] Um,

[02:03:31] I don't think so.

[02:03:33] No,

[02:03:33] I think you should have had to say Iggy.

[02:03:38] Iggy.

[02:03:39] You know what Shannon?

[02:03:40] I G Y.

[02:03:41] I H.

[02:03:42] Oh,

[02:03:42] sorry.

[02:03:43] I got my internet lag.

[02:03:44] I'm back now.

[02:03:45] Well,

[02:03:46] honestly,

[02:03:46] I mean,

[02:03:47] good for you getting into the podcast.

[02:03:49] I was also subtly plugging water salt,

[02:03:51] but that also was,

[02:03:52] I think pretty impossible to tell for the audience.

[02:03:54] It's over two hours into this podcast,

[02:03:56] by the way.

[02:03:57] And I also wanted to talk about Rome spoiler controversy.

[02:04:00] Oh,

[02:04:00] I don't think I'm not finished.

[02:04:02] it was.

[02:04:02] I don't know if they speak about it or not,

[02:04:03] but do you have you heard of this?

[02:04:06] I've,

[02:04:06] I've seen,

[02:04:08] seen some of it.

[02:04:09] Like I said,

[02:04:09] we moved from London.

[02:04:10] So I've been focusing on other things,

[02:04:12] but I've seen it.

[02:04:14] I seen that somebody leaked spoilers,

[02:04:16] but I don't have the,

[02:04:17] the full one,

[02:04:18] three of a situation.

[02:04:19] Okay.

[02:04:19] What happened was for the people who aren't chronically online again,

[02:04:22] I wish I was you.

[02:04:23] Um,

[02:04:24] even when not,

[02:04:25] not the jurors of this season who were chronically online for other people.

[02:04:30] So.

[02:04:31] Yeah.

[02:04:32] For those people,

[02:04:33] he roamed an interview,

[02:04:35] his ex interview with Gordon Holmes and Gordon does word association.

[02:04:39] And usually it's like Sierra.

[02:04:41] Nice.

[02:04:41] You know,

[02:04:42] John Lovett,

[02:04:43] smart,

[02:04:43] whatever.

[02:04:44] But Rome was like,

[02:04:45] I've done it.

[02:04:45] I've met everyone.

[02:04:46] You know,

[02:04:46] I was on the pre jury trip and I was at the most,

[02:04:48] but I can do everybody.

[02:04:49] And then Gordon was like,

[02:04:50] okay,

[02:04:50] we'll just read out your list.

[02:04:51] And Rome's list was in an order where he kind of works his way up from like

[02:04:55] the beginning of the jury.

[02:04:56] I think it was from Sierra.

[02:04:58] And then went back to John Lovett and work away back.

[02:05:01] And then went back to Rachel and worked his way up from Rachel.

[02:05:04] So other than mixing up just Kyle and Caroline and people started working out

[02:05:08] it was Caroline didn't go home and actually kind of ruined the spoiler.

[02:05:11] But then people started working out that it was a spoiler.

[02:05:13] And it was,

[02:05:14] um,

[02:05:15] I have a lot of thoughts on this,

[02:05:16] but I like,

[02:05:17] I,

[02:05:17] cause I do ex interviews for the internationals and I've like had it on many

[02:05:24] sides of the spectrum where like in the UK,

[02:05:26] they were very stringent,

[02:05:27] which actually may be,

[02:05:28] you know,

[02:05:29] type cars.

[02:05:29] They were like,

[02:05:30] cut this out.

[02:05:31] It's a spoiler.

[02:05:31] And I was like,

[02:05:32] Ooh,

[02:05:32] that kind of spoils me.

[02:05:33] Like,

[02:05:34] why is that a spoiler?

[02:05:34] And then it wouldn't happen.

[02:05:35] And I was like,

[02:05:36] Hey,

[02:05:36] that was overly cautious.

[02:05:37] But then I also have had an Australian survivor.

[02:05:40] I've had a player just spoil so much stuff.

[02:05:44] I was like,

[02:05:45] what does he think is happening right now?

[02:05:47] He was like,

[02:05:47] yeah,

[02:05:47] because they're about to win a mute.

[02:05:48] I was like,

[02:05:49] what do you think is happening?

[02:05:50] And then I'll just tell you what it was.

[02:05:54] It was Andrew on brains versus broad.

[02:05:56] But anyway,

[02:05:57] he gets so many spoilers.

[02:05:58] Like if you hear the raw footage of that interview,

[02:06:01] I'm like,

[02:06:03] just for like,

[02:06:03] screaming internally.

[02:06:05] And then immediately the PR called me and we're like,

[02:06:08] can we cut?

[02:06:08] I'm like,

[02:06:08] yeah.

[02:06:09] Oh,

[02:06:09] we'll cut it out when he spoiled everything.

[02:06:12] So yeah,

[02:06:13] it was a story I've never told.

[02:06:15] Basically.

[02:06:15] My point is like,

[02:06:16] I think that PR on the call should be responsible for that.

[02:06:19] I want to talk about like how much you think Roman tended to spoil the whole season.

[02:06:22] But also then I'm like,

[02:06:24] do PR even know the boot order?

[02:06:25] Like it was a very unfortunate,

[02:06:27] like comedy of errors to get this to happen.

[02:06:29] But I feel bad for the people who were spoiled because like,

[02:06:31] I went to check it out immediately after the season.