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[00:01:10] dein Business konzentrieren. Shopify kostenlos ausprobieren und dein Business voranbringen. Shopify.de-try besuchen. Also Shopify.de-try. Made for Germany. Powered by Shopify. Hi everybody and welcome back to the Survivor 50 Wishlist Podcast. An off-season series where we're trying to figure out who could and should come back for Survivor 50.
[00:01:50] But today we're doing things a little bit different. I know we're talking Survivor 50, but drop the 5, keep the 0 and then replace the 5 with a 2.
[00:02:00] I'm not here for math. I am here to talk though about Survivor Heroes vs. Villains, the 20th season as we're on the precipice of another anniversary season.
[00:02:09] We gotta talk about one of the first ones, arguably one of the best seasons of all time and trying to figure out how the sausage got made here. And perhaps prognosticating how it might look forward to Survivor 50. I'm so excited to welcome this guy in.
[00:02:25] We were bringing in a genuine Survivor know-it-all. And as we're talking Heroes vs. Villains, he is a personal hero of mine. It is two-time legend, the great Steven Fischbach.
[00:02:37] I do feel like I'm a uniquely good person to talk about Heroes vs. Villains, except someone who maybe was on Heroes vs. Villains. I don't know, they probably have more insight, but they're going to be biased in a way that I will also be biased.
[00:02:46] But maybe I'll be more upfront about my biases. But I feel like I was on token genes, then Samoa happened, that was all sort of a blur.
[00:02:56] But then I really feel like I was very present for Heroes vs. Villains, both in terms of that kind of being where I started podcasting about it and also just knowing a lot of members of the cast. And I was in all the pre-game strategy sessions, you know?
[00:03:10] I was at the Kentucky event when Rupert and JT and James was probably, they were all huddled in a corner planning. And that, of course, worked out beautifully for them. They all ended up winning the show.
[00:03:22] So I'm honored to be here. I assume I was your number one draft pick for token genes and that you have minted me as a 100% returning player for Survivor 50.
[00:03:31] I will completely obfuscate the literal text conversation we had behind it, where I asked you if you wanted to come back and you said no. Purely fanfiction in this regard.
[00:03:40] And I will also say, Steven, before all of this, a few months ago, when the announcement was made about 50 being a returning season, you put out a really beautiful thread on Twitter about your own experience being sort of a Survivor alum
[00:03:55] and the consistent anxiety and anticipation that comes with trying to get that call, waiting for that hallowed day when you go on to another season and how, listen, keep your expectations low, don't get your hopes up, live your life, etc.
[00:04:11] That being said, I am so sorry that this entire process may just completely obfuscate that idea. But it is a point that should be taken by the contestants proper. Well, that's why I'm here to say that none of them should be brought back. Nobody's coming back.
[00:04:24] Keep all your expectations low. I'm rubber stamping nobody for Survivor 20 or any other season. Yeah, there we go. We're just pure vibes today talking about the cast of Heroes vs.
[00:04:34] Villains. But I do think it's interesting, Steven, because, you know, we talked with Rob about All-Stars, where that was, OK, first ever returning season. And there were a few between All-Stars and Heroes vs. Villains. We had Stephanie and Bobby John coming back in Guatemala.
[00:04:49] We had the half and half of Micronesia. So we were dipping our toes a bit more into the returning waters. But I do think as we look ahead to Survivor 50, it's not too dissimilar of a mood to Survivor 20, where again, this was an anniversary.
[00:05:02] This was Survivors 10 year anniversary. And so they wanted to honor it by trying to do a full All-Star season, which they hadn't done since Season 8.
[00:05:11] And it basically came down to as they were making their list, they realized, oh, some of these players we want to bring back because they were heralded for all their noble, heroic qualities. Some we love to hate them.
[00:05:23] What if we come up with this theme of Heroes vs. Villains? And thus one of the most iconic seasons in Survivor history was born.
[00:05:32] And so now we're looking ahead to what would be Survivors 25th anniversary, where not for that pesky pandemic and said it's airing in 2026, but still 50, a very large milestone. Do you think amongst the many themes that have been debated in the community, we should do a Heroes vs.
[00:05:48] Villains 2? Oh, Heroes vs. Villains 2. That's really interesting. I mean, I love that.
[00:05:52] At the time, of course, Courtney Yates had like the brilliant evisceration, you know, as she's brilliantly eviscerated many things that, you know, all the what makes a hero on Survivor is just being like a manly, outdoorsy guy. What makes a villain is being like an opinionated woman.
[00:06:05] And hopefully the criteria has changed a little bit since then. But but that's not to say that, you know, Boston Rob or Randy are opinionated women, but they, you know, you get the general vibe of that.
[00:06:16] Coach will be compared to a little girl a few seasons from now. As he has.
[00:06:23] I kind of love the idea of just like All-Stars 2, you know, I mean, that's like sort of I feel like as soon as Survivors kind of like moved away from putting people into buckets. And I think it's maybe it's been challenging to identify the seasons because of that.
[00:06:38] But I do think for a new era All-Stars, you know, you want you just want like the big blazing of like All-Stars 2. You know, this is the new one. That's what's your opinion? Are you kind of heroes, villains too?
[00:06:51] I'm more of a personal second chances old era versus new era would be like my preferable theme. Heroes versus villains would probably be a good second one. And it's tough, of course.
[00:07:01] I think everyone will then point at the thing that Jeff said at the beginning of 46 of quote unquote no more villains.
[00:07:07] And I think, listen, as we even get into the casting for this season, the definition of what makes a villain especially will very much vary from person to person.
[00:07:16] I mean, you talk about, again, placing yourself in that time when you were very much in the community, considering that these are the seasons that will come right after your own time on the spotlight.
[00:07:24] Talk about the mood from the alumni community, because again, there was talks that Micronesia was going to be All-Stars 2. That ends up getting cut quite literally in half. But I mean, you speak about hushed, whispered conversations in a corner in a Kentucky event.
[00:07:38] What was sort of the general atmosphere in the alumni community? Because this is something that had not been done in quite some time. Yeah, it really was electric. And, you know, and of course there was all these rumors of who was going to get to go.
[00:07:49] I mean, the fact that they were, you know, presumably bringing people back from much earlier seasons was Colby and Jerry were the earliest ones, right? There's no season one. But, you know, this this sense of the scope and the history.
[00:08:00] Now, of course, like now 20 seasons of time is a blink in survivors eye. But at the time, I mean, I remember being on token chains and Jeff, you know, we were doing the bearing weight challenge. I was not doing it. I was watching the bearing weight challenge.
[00:08:13] But, you know, he's like JT is holding as much as Rupert. And like, oh, my gosh, this idea that we were matching, you know, matching stacks with like the legends of yore.
[00:08:23] And now to be in the position of competing with these legends of yore, you know, was so electric.
[00:08:29] I mean, for me, knowing that it was like going to be all my friends going and not like me necessarily, like it's a little less electric, a little sad and more pathetic, you know. But, you know, it was cool to witness.
[00:08:41] And, you know, that just of course, like everybody was chattering nonstop. Did you get the call? You know, and they cast a wider net initially before before narrowing it down to the to the people who do go. So there was there was all that politicking.
[00:08:55] There were additional people involved. You know, when people were cut, there was the trauma of that, the heartbreak of Ozzie, you know, something we all have a lot of emotion about.
[00:09:05] You know, and of course, Shane Shane missing out at the last moment because of their decision to bring back Russell was was it's just like it felt like there was all this sort of spectacular behind the scenes drama. Of course, the time I was dating Courtney Yates.
[00:09:19] So, you know, as soon as they you know, as soon as they left, as soon as they went back, I got like all the on the ground intel and then pretended to not be spoiled when I podcasted about it. That was like I am no, no, no.
[00:09:30] But yes, like I'm no longer actually spoiled. But for a couple of seasons there, it was basically impossible to not be spoiled. Was I was talking about? Well, let's get into this season and really ground ourselves in the perspective of,
[00:09:41] I guess, both hindsight and foresight of at the time. Why were they cast and looking back, were they the correct choices? And I group these in a little bit of a chronological order. Steven, I want to start with.
[00:09:54] It's so interesting, considering that the defining of eras of Survivor with one exception has become so much of a sliding scale. But I would consider these at the time the old school players of the Survivor Heroes versus villains.
[00:10:08] So these are all of our pre all stars castaways that return for Heroes versus Villains. It was a quarter of the cast. So you mentioned Colby and Jerry. We have Boston Rob, who, of course, appeared in our cases and then makes his return in all stars with aplomb.
[00:10:23] We have Sandra, who was originally going to be on all stars, but couldn't do the back to back seasons and ends up coming back for Heroes versus Villains. And then you have Rupert, who is coming off of his own million dollar win
[00:10:37] in America's tribal council, but is coming back. I mean, I think especially the big three here in Colby, Jerry and Rupert. Yes, we're going to be seeing with four of these five players that this is their third time playing.
[00:10:50] And for a couple of them, it certainly won't be their last. And even then, I think people are like, do we really need to see these players appear again three times? But I think, Stephen, this is where kind of like the theme trumps all
[00:11:01] if it's Heroes versus Villains. You have the quite literal white hat and black hat in Colby, in Jerry, and you have the man that is probably the first to win a million hearts in Rupert.
[00:11:14] Only the first, the first of many to the first of two to win a million hearts. Yes. And Rob, who was, you know, such a huge villain at the time of All-Stars, where that was sort of his like, you know, really upped up
[00:11:27] the brutality of the game with some of it, you know, his what were considered at the time like, you know, vicious personal betrayals, heartless betrayals. And it's so funny, you know, watching the seasons now, as apparently people do, it's it's it's you know, so so benign, right?
[00:11:43] Like I mean, the idea that Jerry was a villain, you know, because why she ate chocolate or something. What was like what made Jerry a villain? There was the whole beef jerky thing. It was the fact that people were not necessarily happy with her around camp.
[00:11:56] So I don't know if it garnered the as she quoted herself, man eater, manthy persona. But look, the Internet was both very different and very similar in twenty twenty four as it was back in 2001. But it truly I mean, it was like, you know, to your point,
[00:12:10] like the standards of how we were evaluating those those rubrics was we were evaluating those categories was quite different. So but yes, like and but these were the iconic characters of the game and the idea that they could come back and then that like you'd have
[00:12:24] some of these newer characters like on a playing field with them, interacting with them was so just it was so exciting. I mean, it was like so I mean, just personally, you know, like saying, oh my gosh, JT is going to be out there with with Colby.
[00:12:35] And like they became buddies, you know, and the idea of a JT Colby Tom Alliance that sort of happened for a hot minute, you know, was was it was really like, you know, I think I think I think production was excited about it.
[00:12:49] Yeah. So when it comes to Boston, Rob, I'll admit in the moment I was a little surprised, namely because Rob was one of these first survivor contestants to curtail it into not necessarily just a career in entertainment. Again, Colby kind of paved that way.
[00:13:02] But reality TV, I mean, as Rombo alongside Amber are going to appear in two seasons of The Amazing Race, Rob is going to be in that brief show, Robin Amber against the odds. They're going to have their wedding televised. And so what's happening with Tontine?
[00:13:15] Is that ever going to get off the ground? Oh, man, maybe one day. Well, you know, once Rob has run out of shows to appear on, Tontine might see a renaissance period. But it does seem like, you know, Rob had talked about on All Stars
[00:13:27] that he had a mind to think that maybe Colby would have been bigger than all stars, considering all the media campaigns and television products he was appearing on. I did have have a mind to think that maybe that would be Boston, Rob.
[00:13:41] But he does come back to Survivor for the third, but certainly not last time. What was your reaction to Sandra coming back? Because these four we haven't seen since Survivor All Stars where they all appeared. Sandra was somebody who granted was on the season before was a winner.
[00:13:57] But I feel like especially again, we regard her now as this big survivor legend. At the time, she was not necessarily disregarded by the fandom, but I would not necessarily say she was this big player that everyone tells her to be now.
[00:14:11] Yeah, it's so funny because it's basically impossible to remember my thinking at the time about it. Right, because for that very reason, like she's so like she looms so large now in the Survivor verse and, you know, it has only expanded that by going on Australian Survivor and
[00:14:27] Traders. Yeah, sorry. It's like the where, you know, now she's this like, you know, just big media character where, you know, I honestly literally cannot go back to remember what I thought about about her coming back at the time.
[00:14:41] I mean, in general, just the sense of, you know, scope and history from it was was so fun. And I think like, you know, having people come back from the same season, you had obviously Sandra and Rupert who were like great allies at the time.
[00:14:53] And now they would be competing on different tribes. Like that was a really exciting idea, too. Yeah, that's the other thing is that we talked about this again in All Stars that they have partially set up this three tribe designation,
[00:15:03] which would repeat in seasons to kingdom come to separate out a lot of these major alliances, the Taghi Alliance, the big three in Africa, etc. A little bit tougher to do with two tribes. And we'll get into that in particular when it comes to maybe why one player
[00:15:19] appeared on a tribe that maybe they should not be affiliated with. But of course, Colby and Jerry had to be separated. Sandra and Rupert had to be separated, even though Sandra, I think, especially with her legacy as of Heroes versus Villains,
[00:15:31] definitely falls into that Courtney camp, as you're saying of like she got into arguments, though she does play into the role by saying last time I was mean, this time I'll be meaner. And I will say her throwing out the fish in pure retribution
[00:15:45] for Rupert's boot and then letting her closest ally take the fall. It's like a low key villainous move, I would say. Oh, yeah. I mean, the one thing I'll say for Sandra, though, is like, you know, her anyone but me strategy really still loomed.
[00:15:55] It wasn't like she was this forgotten winner from the show's past. I mean, yeah, when I in token chains, when I had my meeting with Matt and Jeff right before the show, they said to me like, hey, remember Sandra's strategy?
[00:16:05] Anyone but me? And I was like, which I thought was sort of rattled by it, actually. But but, you know, the fact that she was kind of like associated with a strategy, just, you know, and a whole way of playing the game, you know, even before
[00:16:20] Heroes versus Villains, I do think like, you know, may gave her like a lot of strategic heft that maybe, you know, that. Yeah. All right. Well, let's move into our next group. Here. So this is the group that appeared after all stars,
[00:16:38] but did not make the Micronesia group. That is an entirely separate quadrant that we'll get into in a little bit. But we have from Survivor Palau, of course, its winner in Tom and the unquestionable fan favorite of that season turned Guatemala finalist in Stephanie.
[00:16:54] We have Daniela Di Lorenzo from Exile Island finalist in her own right. We have Candace, the mutineer from Cook Islands, who ends up becoming a hero in this season. And of course, the aforementioned Courtney Yates.
[00:17:09] And so I want to start with probably the two biggest blocks of this group, which are, of course, Tom and Stephanie. Again, Tom seen as a massive hero, of course, mainly due to his occupation being a firefighter. But also we talked about this during the Palau podcast
[00:17:25] being one of the first like out and out alpha male physical types to actually win Survivor. He was really regarded in this moment as one of the biggest heroes to ever play. And so he was an absolute lock.
[00:17:38] And what's also interesting about Stephanie is that I feel like for the first time and certainly not the last time we're going to get a bit of like an obfuscation on production's part of like Stephanie was a massive underdog, massive hero in Palau. Guatemala, maybe not so much.
[00:17:53] You know, a little bit disliked by both the people on her season and the people off of her season. But producers are still like, oh, we can forget about that. What happens in Guatemala stays in Guatemala, including our returnees. Stephanie, you're a hero. Go on to the heroes.
[00:18:09] And she also sort of, again, hit the same archetype. But I'm strong and I'm good at camp, you know, in a way that like Amanda Kimmel did too, right? Whereas like, you know, maybe Parvati, who was Amanda,
[00:18:19] you know, who's very close allies with Amanda, like throughout the whole show. You know, was not as strong at camp. I don't know. So like, you know, and that could account for Stephanie being a hero, too. So give me your thoughts on Danielle.
[00:18:32] Yeah, I mean, that's the most random. Was she an alternate? Truly, like was she like because she truly, I think, is maybe the most random person in the whole cast. And when they were going out, you know, I think there was a sense of,
[00:18:42] well, Danielle's going to win, you know, because like there was this idea of random brunette wins the all star seasons like that was very much in the zeitgeist at the time. And that was who Danielle was. Right. I mean, of course she was a runner up.
[00:18:57] And I'm sure just from saying that people will say, oh, my gosh, how dare you? Like this count Danielle's huge, you know, huge impact on Panama. But at the time, I'll say people generally, you know, without regard to my own opinion, like considered her
[00:19:12] sort of a cipher and maybe were more surprised that she was in the final mix. Was she an alternate? Like I know that Natalie Bolton was an alternate. So Natalie Bolton was an on site alternate Danielle. Apparently the story was that Corinne was asked and we'll get into
[00:19:26] certainly the people that were left on the shortlist in a little bit, because like you said, I think the the convention was that they initially drew up a list of 50 and then narrowed it down to 20 by the end and that Corinne declined due to work obligations.
[00:19:41] And that Danielle was kind of her immediate replacement, sort of like some of the stories behind all stars, as well as like, well, Kelly Goldsmith was sort of like a generic young woman replacement for your Jenna Maraska types. And that was sort of the case with Danielle.
[00:19:55] You know, Mari and I talked about this on the Panama podcast in that I think is Danielle one of the top five most infamous female villains of the first 19 seasons? No. If you look back on Exile Island, there is some there there.
[00:20:09] I mean, she is definitely someone that's scrapped a lot with Shane and Corny. She was certainly someone to speak her mind. She gets called a meatball by Shane, which I don't know. Maybe they should have gone with like vegetables versus meatballs at the end of the day.
[00:20:24] Maybe that'll be survivor 50. Yeah, that's that's a great way to make everyone starving. Don't give them any food and then name the tribes after food items. Jeff, you can keep that one. That's just money on the table. But I think that Danielle getting brought back like
[00:20:38] I think if you look back upon the impact she had in her first season, I could kind of understand it, you know, especially from a casting perspective makes it to the final two. So it's not like she was eliminated randomly in 10th place or something
[00:20:50] was fairly physical, a captain of sports. And I think also the villainous narrative, which would have made more sense if Terry was also on the season, was, oh, she convinced Terry to vote alongside her so she wouldn't get voted out of the final four.
[00:21:05] But then she won immunity and cut Terry and she turned his back her back on him, which is like pretty B.S. considering that Terry would have won the game unquestionably. Yeah, I did, too. That final two. But there's something there there with Danielle.
[00:21:19] It was just probably the smallest there out of anybody on the villains. Well, and I think that was part of it, right? You had this like tribe of just, you know, icons, you know, and truly it's one of the great tribes of all time, right?
[00:21:30] Yeah, especially with like the footprint that it leaves as well, considering how many of them are going to come back, how many of them are going to become finalists, win eventually, etc. Yeah. And and like, you know, when you're looking at like
[00:21:39] who's the second weakest link of the villains tribe, it's like, is it Randy? You know, who was like a huge character on Gabon? Like you totally could like see him being, you know, I mean, obviously he was the first off the tribe,
[00:21:48] so he didn't have much of a chance to like leave a big mark. But, you know, it is such like a big, notorious tribe that like and Daniel just doesn't kind of like fit into that, you know?
[00:21:59] And and the fact that she like makes it so far, too, I think is part of that where I mean, maybe part of why she's overshadowed. I mean, because she is kind of the third or fourth in that, you know, alliance with Parvati and Jerry.
[00:22:14] And I mean, you know, Russell, obviously. And then like Sandra's not, you know, Sandra's voting with them, but she's not aligned with them. So, you know, it does. You know, I think the fact that she is kind of the
[00:22:25] and I feel like she was maybe like mostly like Parvati's minion in a way where where I think that as a result, she didn't have as much of like an actual footprint on the season impact. Yeah, either way.
[00:22:38] Yeah, she's not as a you know, she's no sort of carbon based substance. So I guess we all are, I mean, speaking. Yeah, the more you think about it. Let's talk about Candace here. Speaking of science.
[00:22:48] Let's talk about the at the moment medical school graduate by the time this is happening, because I think she is maybe the other one that people kind of raise their heckles about, not necessarily about her inclusion on the season, because I mean, Candace
[00:23:02] is someone that causes a lot of dramatics in Cook Islands when she decides to mutiny Jonathan Jones alongside her. And that is really the spark to light the flame that does become the I to four, one of the biggest underdog stories in survivor history.
[00:23:16] It's more so the idea that because Parvati was originally, I believe, on the heroes tribe, but they didn't want to put everyone from Micronesia on there. Candace and Parvati had a swap together and a lot of people were just arching their eyebrows about how is Candace
[00:23:35] one of the top five female heroes in survivor history? So even then you can kind of see that as much fun as this theme is, good God, these lines can be blurred when it just comes to, well, we want them on the show.
[00:23:46] But even Parvati being pitched as a hero, I mean, like she was so much a villain in Micronesia, right? Like the idea that like I mean, this story, which I've heard, too. And, you know, I believe that, you know, they had they switched Parvati and Candace.
[00:23:58] But the narrative of Parvati being initially cast on the heroes tribe is kind of surprising. I mean, Sari too, you know, like what is a villain? Like, you know, someone who like plays with people's minds
[00:24:09] and gets them to do things like quite counter to their own best interests. And I mean, I mean, Sari should be number one villain, you know, but obviously she's she's got so much like good human energy that she's a hero.
[00:24:20] But Parvati, I think, like makes so much sense as a villain in a way that, you know, why she would have been initially cast on the heroes tribe, which, again, that's that's what I've heard is surprising, too.
[00:24:33] Yeah. Maybe there's some thoughts to are we taking the page out of Survivor 35 here? Could Candace's outside occupation have played a role in her tribe designation where you heal the sick? Yeah, we haven't figured out healers yet, but I guess hero is the next best thing.
[00:24:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very funny. Yeah, I mean, you're probably right. I do think there's like a whole vibe, you know, that does can that does contribute to that. I'm trying to think of like either any, you know, Tom's a firefighter.
[00:25:01] That's so much a part of like, you know, his identity. You know, Amanda Kimmel is obviously like an enormous hero. What was she? She was like a Montana hiking guide. Right. Yeah. Or hiking, hiking guide. And I mean, Rupert, of course, Trouble Teen's mentor
[00:25:16] was one of the many things that factor into his bellwether support. Yeah. And Sandra veteran, you know. Jerry, yeah, probably her heart is in Afghanistan. So, yeah. At the time, were you feeling like Candace wasn't someone that you necessarily wanted back
[00:25:33] or was it more like, OK, I'm glad she returned? It's just sort of a matter of what what color buff she's wearing. Yeah, I mean, and truly, like for me, I was less analyzing at the time, you know, who was coming back and more
[00:25:45] just like filled with jealousy and bitterness than any of them were. And it wasn't me. So I was less about any one person being cast than it was that I wasn't being cast. Well, let's talk about someone that maybe you felt that a little less
[00:25:56] about considering that you were, you know, true final two in a relationship together. Let's talk about Courtney. I'm sure you must have experienced Courtney's reaction subsequently to both being asked back and then being told what the theme is. Talk to me about that perspective.
[00:26:12] Yeah, I mean, I do think there was some amusement on her part of, you know, or sardonic amusement as is her like mode, you know, of this idea that, oh, why am I like, what did I do that was villainous?
[00:26:22] You know, like I truly like what did I do that out there that was villainous other than being, you know, an opinionated small woman? So I do think, you know, and but of course, like she, you know, as everybody was
[00:26:34] was really caught up in the excitement of the moment. You know, the idea of like being a part of this historic survivor season, you know, you know, and so much of it is about logistics. You know, it's like like sending in wardrobe, like being thoughtful about that.
[00:26:46] You know, I mean, so I remember like we were like choosing her outfit. You know, you want to choose, pick layers. You know, you don't want to send them something that they might actually accept, but you don't want to wear, you know.
[00:26:55] So like I do feel like in the lead up to any of these seasons, like there's obviously the excitement and there's obviously the like wondering about who you're going to be with and, you know, people are, of course, I
[00:27:05] you know, there was a lot of pregaming at the events, but, you know, there was less of like I do think there was like email and text than there is now, you know, and I think it seemed like a little bit lower key in that
[00:27:14] in that in that quadrant. But but yeah, I mean, you know, being caught up in this historic moment, but there's also just like that sense of like logistics and and of course, you know, fear and nerves and for anybody, you know, I don't know her specifically,
[00:27:28] but I can, you know, just that sense of like anticipation and pregame jitters. I mean, I do think also in retrospect, when you look at the rubric as to what made Courtney a villain, I mean, listen, she did tell someone that they suck at life.
[00:27:42] But I think if you ask Mark Burnett after that reunion, he might he might be on Courtney's side, perhaps with that assessment. And you could argue like, yes, she did get into some conflict on her season, but her conflict was arguably with a bigger villain of the season.
[00:27:58] So now look, I was happy to see Courtney regardless. It sucks that she her impact was as minimized as it was, because like how do you bring Courtney Yates onto a season of Survivor and not maximize all the comedic potential and professional snark
[00:28:11] that she has, but she like outperformed her way as she does. You know, she like in terms of like the confessionals that she did have, I mean, this is sort of like the Russell Hobbit sort of became iconic. The yeah, I mean, you know, her perspective was like,
[00:28:25] how is James a hero and I'm a villain? You know, like James is actually I mean, like but like I think in the overall perception of the fandom, you know, James is a heroic figure. Yeah, it's interesting because I think for a lot of these women,
[00:28:39] especially the villainous women, it kind of came down to, you know, fan base perception at the time as to, oh, I really like this person. We'll get into that with Suri. I think it really is this idea of, well, she had this almost underdog narrative
[00:28:52] of getting off the couch, being afraid of leaves to becoming this power player. And for a lot of these villainous women, it was like, well, she's a bitch. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yells a bitch in a meatball. Sandra is a bitch.
[00:29:04] And it's it's so tough to view from a lens nowadays. But that was kind of the way that they were typified both in the edit and by the fan base as well. And it's funny to talk about the men, too, which I know we will,
[00:29:15] because it's like, you know, Randy, he's a grouch. But like coach, like was he a villain or was he just like a wackadoodle? You know, I mean, so it's a wackadoodles almost when when it comes to that case. Yeah. Well, let's speak about our Micronesia four here.
[00:29:30] And, you know, this is the one I think I go back and forth on where Micronesia was a hugely popular season. Some consider it the best season since Borneo when it aired. And so almost like how in all stars they pulled the most amount of people from Australia,
[00:29:44] from Borneo, those well-regarded seasons in the early days. It does make sense to pull from this. You know, the question is, that was only four seasons ago. Did they all necessarily need to come back?
[00:29:55] But I think especially if you look at it from the moment, there is a there there. You know, I think they want to bring back a fair amount of winners. So poverty does make sense.
[00:30:03] Amanda up to that point had not been voted out, had played the most days in survivor history and again was regarded as one of the best people to never win the game alongside somebody like Suri, who had two big seasons.
[00:30:17] And yes, James had a much smaller part to play in Micronesia than he did in China. And he will have by far besides, he may be the biggest fall from grace in this season,
[00:30:27] but he was a back to back fan favorite winner in enormous and enormous fan favorite at the time. I mean, like probably, you know, and like, you know, what was so exciting about Heroes vs. Villains was seeing these like legends kind of compete against each other.
[00:30:42] And while I don't think James had or perhaps has ever won an individual immunity challenge, is that true? Yeah. You know, he's still like, I think at the time, certainly was considered like one of like the largest titans and physical forces in the history of the game.
[00:30:55] And so like having that just like, you know, well literally like massiveness on like a human scale was, you know, part of the appeal of the season. You want the biggest, you want the craftiest, you know, and I think that's what you got with these four, right?
[00:31:09] It's like Amanda Choos, an amazing physical competitor, you know, and then, you know, Parvati as well. So you want, and you know, you had some of the most devious players ever with Parvati and Suri. You know, so like I think that sense of like
[00:31:23] bigness and, you know, mostness was also what was really exciting about this season. You know, like you had the best of the best, like from all eras of the show competing against each other.
[00:31:36] Yeah, that's the thing is that, and we talked about this a bit with all stars as well. And look, it doesn't necessarily apply to everybody, but when you look at sort of the resumes of a lot of these people,
[00:31:45] even someone like Danielle, who made it to a final two, you know, there was this idea of really wanting to celebrate this milestone in an epic battle. And while the discourse might get lost in what makes a hero and what makes a villain,
[00:32:01] I think first and foremost, they wanted to get these people on the season to play in the first place, including reuniting the Black Widow Brigade, which was one of the most successful alliances up to that point. And yeah, you talked about this before.
[00:32:15] If Parvati was a hero, it would have been a little odd because for a long time, including after this season, so much of the way that production looked at Parvati was like this, not even a Black Widow, but more like a trapped spider, right?
[00:32:31] She lures you in by flirting and then she grabs you and takes her in. And I think that is very much misappropriating Parvati's game. I think it doesn't factor into a lot of the social relationships that she's been able to build every time she's been out there.
[00:32:45] But I think that is very differently regarded than somebody like Amanda, who, yes, was alongside these people. But you look at her Micronesia game, for instance, and she's left out of the Aussie vote. She's the one who has to play the idol when her back's against the wall.
[00:33:01] And so I think the way that these two are perceived completely differently, despite playing alongside each other, factors a lot into their tribe divisions. Yeah, that's really that's a great point. And I mean, you know, too, like the idea of taking great allies,
[00:33:15] I mean, as you were saying with All-Stars and putting them on opposing tribes, like that creates so much dramatic potential at the merge, as we saw. I mean, that conversation between Parvati and Amanda is just iconic. It's one of the great conversations in the history of this show.
[00:33:27] I mean, partially because of how poorly Amanda played it, but also how beautifully Parvati read it. And the idea of the tension between all these people's history as allies and their immediate goals right now. It's like that's what creates so much great excitement
[00:33:43] around these All-Star seasons is some of that history kind of paying off. And of course, there's too the recency bias, right? Like even just from a pure season marketing perspective, who the fandom remembers is who they just saw. And so, you know, same too with Cambodia.
[00:33:58] Like, you know, there are four people from season 28 cast. There were four people from season three, people from season 29 cast. So, you know, it's like the vast majority of the contestants I do think comes from recent seasons.
[00:34:09] And of course, you know, with Heroes of the Valens as well, it was also, you know, big token chains contingent, of course. Right. And as we move on to Sari as well, I think she is maybe in a bit of a lesser category
[00:34:22] in terms of this designation than Stephanie. But I too think she is sort of marked by she has played two big seasons up to this point. But in terms of her designation, it's much more so about the former than the latter, where Sari plays an even better game,
[00:34:41] arguably her best game in Survivor Micronesia. But I think to your point, it's all about how these people are remembered. And I think in the moment, Sari, despite participating in some very deliciously devious activities back in Micronesia,
[00:34:54] is most well known for the woman who went from watching the show to barely surviving on the show to then becoming the odds-on threat to win the show. And I feel like that perception maybe overwhelms some of the actual minutiae of the actions they do.
[00:35:09] Yeah, I mean, I still though I do think in the core fandom, there was a sense of like Sari played the winning game in Micronesia, you know, that sense of like if it was a final three, as they had every reason to suspect it was going to be,
[00:35:21] Sari would have won. So even at the time, I remember there was a sense of like Sari was the, like, you know, she played the correct game and then ended up not winning. But so I do think there was, you know,
[00:35:31] at least in the, you know, the Survivor sucks of it all. I think a sense of like, you know, here was someone who was like really on the cusp of winning twice in a row. And, you know, can she pull it off this time?
[00:35:41] And also we may have a little bit of Candace stuff going on in that she was a nurse. And so maybe that also makes her a hero by proxy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's move into our last group here.
[00:35:51] And like you said, yeah, there's a lot of recency bias. Six people out of 20 come from the last three seasons of the show. We have from Gabon, Sugar and Randy, who denied Randy Sugar. We have, of course, from your beloved token genes, JT, Coach, Tyson, and from Samoa,
[00:36:12] the they were so taken with him almost immediately from his sock burning and Hurricane Katrina mythos that they threw him onto the next season immediately in Russell's hand. So let's go chronologically here. You know, Corinne was somebody who again would have been factored into this.
[00:36:28] So it would have made this contingency even larger in terms of this slideshow. But I do think if you're picking people from this season to represent heroes and villains, even though if you ask people in Gabon, Sugar was not necessarily the hero. I mean, from an audience perspective,
[00:36:44] granted Bob beat her in the fan favorite vote, but she was a very popular contestant at the time. Yes, she was an extremely popular contestant at the time. That's right. And I think like some of the people's perspective of her now is affected by kind of the fallout
[00:36:57] from heroes versus villains. But she was hugely like, yeah, a huge, a huge popular, hugely popular contestant at the time. You know, the whole Sugar Shack narrative in Gabon was beloved, you know, and she was just seen as like the.
[00:37:11] I mean, especially with Corinne being in the mix, like she was kind of seen as the force of good to like Corinne's force of evil, which they probably both would both would accept as as correct, you know, correct reads of their of their selves.
[00:37:22] Yeah, and I think there also was this narrative, too, of like the underestimation of the pinup girl. Right. We're just going to write off. And then she does things like blindside ace, like flip the whole game around at the merge. And then she also has this personal narrative
[00:37:36] with losing her father and her relationship with Bob. I've talked about this before. She was in this sort of rare echelon of seasons where the editing was focused around one main character. It was really this three group of seasons that will personify it the most.
[00:37:50] And Sugar was the main character of Gabon. And so she was, I think, one in terms of returnees at the time. Really? I think coach was number one. Like, I think, well, I mean, I would say from from Gabon. From Gabon. Oh, OK.
[00:38:02] I mean, I guess Russell was number one. But yeah, the that's that's I would agree with that. Yeah, I think she was such a such a big character and had like so much, you know, to there was something else about this
[00:38:14] where a lot of them are like characters in a way, you know? And here's what's really played into that. I mean, like in that scene where you have like coach and Rupert, it felt like they broke out new sound effects. You know, there were more eagle screeches
[00:38:25] and here's villains than like any season subsequent or prior. So I do feel like this was, you know, they wanted them to be kind of like iconic characters of the show in a way that maybe I don't I don't really know if that was true of all stars.
[00:38:37] And I don't really think it was true of subsequent returning seasons. And I do think you kind of had that a little bit with sugar. She is sort of a little bit larger than life. And speaking of that, I mean, Randy, of course, was a Schuman as well.
[00:38:49] Someone who, like you said, his curmudgeonly attitude was someone who made him a villain. Certainly someone that, listen, got along with people enough to be brought into a brief majority alliance, but still at the same time was not afraid to get into arguments
[00:39:04] with people, including the one to his left. Definitely was displayed as like a bit of a social outcast as well, I think to his own choice. So even though it does go down in flames, even though Randy himself has said that he should not come back,
[00:39:20] it made a lot of sense to bring him back, especially to your point with this idea of trying to grab characters that were so big from the last few seasons. Yeah, it's funny. Like, I mean, I remember Randy afterwards said, like we shouldn't have even been out there
[00:39:32] because of how easy Gabon was in terms of the elements, you know, compared to like, you know, then you get out there into Samoa and it's just like pouring rain, you know, those first few days, especially.
[00:39:42] So like I think like, and I do think that affected their performance overall was just this sense of like we were in this like, you know, beautiful terrain that they had, like how it's built for them, right? They did. Yeah, they didn't have to build shelters.
[00:39:54] Yeah. So I do think there was like, and now suddenly we're on this like tropical island where like getting dumped on them. So it was interesting how that kind of affected their performance overall. And certainly I do think Randy.
[00:40:03] Well, someone who also played in a very different environment, but maybe did not have as much of a shock to the elements is, of course, your buddy, your perennial final two partner in JT. This made so much sense at the time.
[00:40:19] JT obviously incredibly well liked during token chains and incredibly well liked by the fans as well. Kim and Bob will go back to back. And I think besides Boston, Rob and Kim, they are the only winners to also win the sprint fan favorite award.
[00:40:34] Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. Yeah. So he was incredibly popular from both a fan base perspective as well as from a player perspective. And he was also personified as quite literally a good old boy. Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:47] Yeah. And I think JT was like you're saying hugely popular, like just on the basically the most recent season to have aired right like Samoa was airing when this was all going down.
[00:40:57] So the kind of a no brainer in terms of like him being cast for as a hero. Yeah. So the coach thing, let's talk into this, because this is really interesting that coach. I know that Boston Rob was the one to muse dryly in the opening episode.
[00:41:12] I'm a villain. But coach does seem like one of those people that would be legitimately confused as to why he's a villain. And it's more so, I guess, the way he made people feel than the things that he was doing. From a gameplay perspective,
[00:41:26] this was Mr. Honesty, loyalty, integrity. He would say that his gameplay was incredibly heroic. But I think it's the second Aaron Lobdell muses, who is this jackass in confessional? A new POV is born when it comes to coach.
[00:41:41] Yeah. And I mean, it's funny because I feel like in Heroes versus Villains, they actually captured coaches ridiculousness much better than they did in token genes and token genes. I felt like they didn't know quite what to do with coach. He was such an oddball character.
[00:41:52] In Heroes versus Villains, they kind of played into that, like his grand eloquence and his just like the silliness of him. And also some of the pathos of him too, with that scene with Tyson. But in token genes and certainly in how he was edited,
[00:42:07] he was often just portrayed as the villain, right? In his arguments with Brendan or in his confident prognostications about the weather. They would always set him up to be wrong. I know it's not going to rain tonight. I can read the weather.
[00:42:22] It's going to be a total downpour. So they really just like, he was portrayed as probably more of like a jerk in token genes than he was actually in real life. Anyway, I didn't find him to be jerky at all.
[00:42:35] I found it to be lovely and positive and encouraging and coach. But on air, I would get literally after the Brendan vote out, people in the New York City subway were shouting at me like, why did you vote out Brendan instead of coach?
[00:42:50] Like people really, really dislike coach. And it actually got to him like he like, because he received this wave of fan backlash at the time, you know, like real dislike. And I do think part of that was how he was portrayed.
[00:43:04] And I think he was able to kind of like learn to accept it. Like because obviously people, you know, got excited about seeing him even as they were like, oh, you're such a jerk. I don't like you. But like, you know, like, let's like pick.
[00:43:15] And then again, like after Heroes vs Villains, of course, like it becomes more of like persona and more of like there's like a goofiness to it. But I, you know, I do think he was really like portrayed
[00:43:25] as a villain in a way, as bossy, as pushy, as arrogant. I mean, you know, there's some skeezy things like him, like licking Candace or whatever that was. I mean, I can't quite remember exactly what you were. Remember, there was a lot of power in that moment.
[00:43:38] Yeah, exactly. Nobody was licked on Jalapao, you know. You were getting licked in the challenges. I do think that what coach actually kind of paves a way for is this equation that sometimes the fan base does of like delusion equals villainy.
[00:43:56] Right. Yeah, I feel like Angelina is a key example of this, where the way she was personified sometimes is like, oh, give her the Dodo music. And then as a result, the fans like, oh, she's so in her own head. She values her skills.
[00:44:09] She's writing checks her ass can't catch. Right. Yeah, I started with coach. Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I and I do think there was like a similarity to like Randy and coach in terms of like how they were portrayed by the show,
[00:44:21] like where the show was like we need to jerk on the season. And then, you know, for Randy, it was like he was the jerk and coach was the jerk. And in a way that the show has really moved away from
[00:44:30] I'm probably both in casting, but also in just kind of like how how people are portrayed generally. What's really interesting is that Tyson has obviously gone on after this season to pick back his game considerably,
[00:44:44] considering the way he goes out in such a big flame out fashion in this season. But I do recall at the time, Stephen, people were a little bit like, I don't know if we need coach and Tyson. Right. Certainly a character is all right.
[00:44:58] I mean, you talk about the arrogancy of coach Tyson quintupled that with the amount that he was talking up his own skill. And then, of course, how that leads to his own glorious blindside. I mean, you, I'm sure, have your own perspective as someone who played alongside Tyson.
[00:45:13] But what did you think about the two of them getting brought back together? I mean, it did make sense. They were huge characters on like the most recent season or, you know, whatever. Second most recent season, you know, and Tyson was just like he was just a hitman.
[00:45:24] He was like a soundbite machine, right? Yeah. Well, you know, he's like the man, like everything like he had, like the man tiara confessional, you know, he would like to bring sweet nothings into Brendan's ear and he said he slit his throat.
[00:45:35] Right. You know, I think that like so for all of it, he was just and he was an amazing athlete. So just in terms of like the bigness of the season, I think that that contributed to.
[00:45:45] And, you know, the fact that he did kind of even in token scenes, right? He kind of went out quite dramatically. Like that's what production wants is they want like a flamboyant moments. They want big money, like a dramatic ouster.
[00:45:57] And Tyson Tyson gave them that both times, you know, but certainly obviously more than redeemed himself. But, you know, it is interesting like he did. They really captured and partially that was because in token genes, they made Sierra
[00:46:08] a sweetheart. And actually, I do think Sierra was in the mix for heroes versus villains. Oh yeah. Allegedly, she was all set to be on the hero's tribe, according to her. But because she was then engaged to a producer at the time,
[00:46:20] she was not allowed to be on the season. I've heard that and I believe that, you know, because I do. I think that's that is accurate, which, you know, makes sense. Like you don't want the like spouses of the producers on the show.
[00:46:31] But that's interesting, though, because I think people have wanted a rival season for so long. And look, the rumor was that was going to be season 40 at some point. We kind of lowkey got it in season 20.
[00:46:42] Right. If that particular quantum entanglement doesn't happen like you're going to have Randy and sugar against each other, you'll have Colby and Jerry against each other. You'll have Tyson and Sierra against each other. And so that kind of factored into probably some of the casting as well.
[00:46:55] I do think it did. I really do think it did. And but like me, but because Sierra was portrayed to be such a sweetheart, then Tyson, by contrast, is such a villain. Whereas like, you know, ask anyone on that cast and we all loved Tyson and
[00:47:07] had different opinions about about Sierra. And last one, Russell, absolute chew in, I think, both from his on island actions and the fact that in a completely unbalanced direction, they really hyped him up in Survivor Samoa.
[00:47:20] And so I do think he cemented himself as one of the greatest villains, even amongst a very stacked pool over the course of that season. I should also mention here, just looking back, I will say I know that people want us to kind of
[00:47:34] revisit the people that have been put on the ballot so far. I can tease that maybe I'll find an opportunity to do that in a little bit. But just to review on this particular podcast of the cast of Heroes vs. Villains,
[00:47:45] all five of these individuals, Colby, Jerry, Rob, Sandra and Rupert are on the shortlist for 50. We have Stephanie, Danielle and Candice on the ballot for 50 from the second group. Tom, we sort of left off due to health issues.
[00:47:59] And Courtney has said that she does not want to come back. All four of the Micronesia four Musketeers, in a manner of speaking, are on the shortlist. And then we put on Coach and Tyson and this entire group.
[00:48:13] But I will say, Stephen, a little bit of breaking news are happening now. So I've been between actually the rare window of time between recording token scenes and recording this. There was a random question asked on Twitter to coach of like,
[00:48:30] would you ever want to come back now? He gave an interview a few years ago where he said, you know what, I think I owe it to the fans. I need one more appearance. But this time around, he said, I probably won't come back.
[00:48:43] That's that's not I don't believe it. I think the coach is getting on a plane. I think I am not having spoken to coaching years. I still think I'm a more accurate read of coaches motivations than he himself is.
[00:48:54] Because I was coming in here ready to call an audible and strike him from the list. But if you know a little bit of BS, I'll keep them on. Yeah, I think with coaches, always a little bit of performance to it.
[00:49:03] And like also it's like one thing to say, I'm not you're not coming in. Listen, I mean, I actually would not go back. But like I do think for a lot of contestants, they'll like talk a big game about how they wouldn't go back.
[00:49:14] But once they get that call, they're like packing their bags, you know, like, oh, good. I've got my survivor bag right here. You know, let's get I'm ready. I'm like, no, no, no. You just just want you to come in for psych.
[00:49:25] So I do think that and also like I would like to see coach again. Just personally, I think like the coach has got one more season in him as like. How old is he now?
[00:49:35] I mean, he's got to be like almost he's got to be in his mid 50s, right? So yeah, that's a tough age to perform. I mean, listen, if you look at the other people that we're picking, it is a spring chicken, but coach is 52 at the moment.
[00:49:47] Yeah, yeah. So I think there's one more season of coach. In the way that I don't want to see Russell again, I'm sorry, Russell. You know, I wanted I wanted to see Russell again.
[00:49:57] You know, I wanted a new Russell, you know, and that's kind of what I was hoping for from Australian survivor Russell. And that is sort of like what I had held hopes out for.
[00:50:05] Like, I think it would be so cool to see a Russell Hance that had learned from his past mistakes and was going to try something totally different. You know, I'm a wiser, older Russell Hance.
[00:50:14] I used to be this iconic villain, but now I'm going to do it a different way. I think it would have been so fun to see that. I just like from, you know, who I just don't think we're getting that in the way that I
[00:50:23] do think we could get that with coach. You know, coach is now like got children. You know, he's he's meaningfully older. He is someone who we've seen has grown, you know, season to season. And that was just in a span of a couple of years.
[00:50:34] Now we're talking, you know, a decade later. So I really feel like it could be cool to get like 52 year old coach, 54 year old coach, you know, playing the game again with a new perspective. Well, as we're talking about people that could be on a perspective season of 50,
[00:50:51] I do want to go briefly upon those who are on a perspective season 20. So through the years, there have been some names that were thrown out as to those that were in the mix for heroes versus villains through various interviews for the heroes.
[00:51:05] Definitely names that were talked about at the time were Yule. Of course, Mike Scoopin. We have the aforementioned Terry Dietz. Ozzy is someone that you mentioned that they chose to hold off on bringing back for a third time.
[00:51:17] Yao Man is someone who actually was supposed to be on but declined due to work obligations. Eric Reichenbach was, I believe, I don't know if he was an onset alternate, but like Natalie Bolton was an alternate.
[00:51:27] And then we mentioned Sierra and Earl Cole was someone that was maybe considered as well, though I think at the time, PG was not popularly regarded. Anybody from that list that you wish and I don't know if you want to replace it with
[00:51:39] anybody, maybe we just add people onto the cast, but that you wish could have been on this season in particular? I mean, you have always been just like an enormous, enormous fan of who else did you say? Like, I threw out a bunch of names there.
[00:51:53] Terry Dietz, Yao Man. Well, Terry too is someone I will. I mean, I love you. I mean, honestly, all of them. Terry is someone who I was such a fan of. It's such a nice guy.
[00:52:02] And I was so bummed not to get to play with him in Cambodia. We've been talking for so long about playing together and I was so bummed that he got, you know, obviously he had to do what he did, but it was so disappointing that he was playing
[00:52:13] a really good game. He was in like with all the alliances, you know, and to not have the opportunity to like see that through. But I mean, it would have been great to see Terry out there too, you know, a little bit
[00:52:24] much in the sort of like chest dumping category, I think like that was already a stacked category for just adding on. It's interesting because I think Tom and Terry are certainly direct replacements for each other at the time. They both won five individual immunities.
[00:52:35] They were both the alpha males of their tribe. But I think it is interesting to put them together on a season to see are we going to get like a neither can live while the other survive idea or are they going to say, OK,
[00:52:47] we have to work together and we'll just lay waste to the entire game. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It would have been really, really fun. But again, like they had a lot of that. They had, you know, Tom and Stephanie and JT and James to a certain degree, Colby, obviously.
[00:53:00] So there was that that, you know, that vector was like, you know, checked. Well, on the villain's side, of course, we had Natalie Bolton, who was basically going to be on the cast and is the closest she's come to being cast on the show so far.
[00:53:14] Of course, we also mentioned that Shane, though Jonathan Penner also claims that both were allegedly going to be on the season but were cut in lieu of Russell when production saw him in Samoa. I mentioned Corinne had to decline and it seems like Danielle replaced her.
[00:53:28] Of course, there was a lot of I think scuttlebutt from the fan base at the time about Johnny Fairplay, though Jeff was really on the record at the time saying that not only, you know,
[00:53:36] did Johnny Fairplay do things behind the scenes to get on my last there, but also he's a quitter and we're not bringing back quitters. I know there was talk about how Judd actually, despite maybe some rumors about him being
[00:53:47] a bit of a headache for production during Guatemala, was someone that they wanted to bring back. She and with someone that was allegedly in the mix, even someone like Ace from Guatemala, Randy said, got pretty far into the process.
[00:53:59] I imagine for you, Shane is your number one with a bullet of who you wish was on the season. Yeah, I mean, I just think he was such a big character, you know, honestly, like I
[00:54:07] think you could have replaced Randy with Shane like but like it was just being additive, like even just additive, like in a way that like, you know, as much as I love Terry, I don't need to see him when we already have that.
[00:54:16] Like now the question is, do you put Shane and Daniel on the same tribe, though? Or do you have to put Danielle as a hero? It's funny. No, I mean, the chaos of Shane and Danielle together would be so great.
[00:54:25] And then like just Shane being, you know, like you can just see that playing out in so many different ways, right? Because what was interesting with the villain tribe was you had these two factions, right? You had like the Russell faction and the Parvati faction.
[00:54:36] And then you had like the Boston Rob, Sandra, Courtney faction. And like Shane just seems like such like a third, you know, a third faction. He doesn't feel like he will fall neatly into either of those groups. Like he's his, you know, he's his own thing, right?
[00:54:48] So it would be really fun to see him, I think in a way, you know, in a way that I could even see like Corrine falling in very neatly with like the Boston Rob faction, you know, or the Parvati.
[00:54:56] I mean, like Shane is just like such a force of chaos in a way that like would be really fun to see in any group. So what did we learn today? I mean, I think there actually are some key takeaways that I've taken out of Heroes versus
[00:55:11] Villains if they do the same thing for Survivor 50, which is I think they're looking for pairs in a manner of speaking where they can. I think they're looking for that sort of continuing the narrative sometimes of okay, these two had bad blood on the beach beforehand.
[00:55:27] Let's pit them against each other if they can help it. If both and the pairs are sort of all stars worthy, there will be some recency bias considering that we saw half the cast come back that had appeared in the last three seasons of the show.
[00:55:40] And then also I think there's this idea of like character above all that no matter what the theme is going to be for Survivor 50, the show will get on there who they want to get on there and find a way to justify it. That's right. Exactly.
[00:55:53] So I think I would imagine that the tiger won't change its stripes that much in terms of casting. Look, we've been prognosticating picking people from the first 20 seasons, but I think we're all realistically having an idea in our head of like, well, as long as it's not
[00:56:07] a specific half old era, half new era, it's going to wait very much in favor of the last 10 seasons. Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. And probably to your point, even like the three seasons that two of which have not aired, right?
[00:56:22] Well, all three of which have not aired. I think like, I mean, that's the thing. Like, you know, there's so much speculation about who from the 40s is going to be cast.
[00:56:28] But like surely a third of the cast is going to come from players who haven't played yet. So or we haven't seen play yet. So, you know, I do think there's that big question mark, too, because at least five players, four players are going to be from 47, 48 and 49.
[00:56:43] But Mike, I have to take umbrage with something you just said, you know, or I would not be myself. Oh, I noticed that when you were listing your potential returnees from token chains, you did not include James Thomas Jr.
[00:56:53] Well, I believe that he did not get a call for winners at war and I had all the more reason we just saw, you know, the winners at war. We haven't seen JT spectacular, literally game changing performance on game changers
[00:57:07] when he stands up at tribal council, walks across the room, the first person to walk across the tribal council set game changing an iconic performance in token genes, obviously an iconic performance in heroes versus villains like this man brings the drama he brings.
[00:57:20] He always plays his heart out. He makes these big swings and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. That's who you want on a season of Survivor. And he's such an iconic character in the history of the show.
[00:57:30] Like he literally is that country boy, you know, who like plays with all his heart, does what he can. And, you know, that's that's a big picture. That's a big name. That's big, you know, a big man. And he should be on season 50.
[00:57:44] I feel like I got flashback 15 years ago where you're stumping for JT. Everything old is new again. Listen, I'm more than happy to keep him in consideration as I'll tease, though. There'll be a way to reconsider some people that did not make the shortlist, perhaps
[00:57:57] in an upcoming show. And so I'm happy to throw him back out there as a bit, especially with such an appealing pitch. Does he want to come back, though, considering that it seems like every time just causes further scars on his resume? No, of course he does.
[00:58:10] You know, that's what's great about JT. It's not about like, let me be this character. It's like this is an opportunity. I'm going to pursue it like with all my heart, you know, and that is so cool about him.
[00:58:20] Like, it's not like, oh, I need to like fix my mistakes of the past or like I was not portrayed in a way. It's like, no, like this is my chance for a million dollars. I'm going to work my heart out to achieve that.
[00:58:29] And I'm going to do everything I can possibly do. You know, there's no like layered sense of self performance with him. And I try. Can you not to get too behind the curtain, but there's no any sort of like production
[00:58:46] difficulties that would preclude him from being on a future season? I don't know. I mean, I heard that rumor, too, but I think that was like largely nonsense. I mean, like certainly not compared to the production difficulties that they've brushed away in the past.
[00:58:57] I mean, I do think that like, you know, I've heard that like that rumor, but I think it was really just a rumor and it probably overheated compared to anything that actually happened. All right.
[00:59:07] So yeah, here's who's to say that we don't leave returning seasons with another possible person to put on the wish list. And 40 years old, you know, this is like vis a vis like seeing people come back as like new versions of themselves.
[00:59:18] I feel like, you know, I think JT is turning 42 days from now. Oh my God. Yeah. In two days from now. So, you know, everybody wish JT a happy birthday. Oh no, but you did not. This will be considerably after this.
[00:59:29] I hope everyone wish JT a happy birthday. Yeah, that's right. So that's why this is airing a little bit later. But yeah, I mean, like, you know, again, like seeing people come back as like new versions of themselves.
[00:59:39] I think it'd be very interesting to see, you know, 40 year old JT. Well, Stephen, I could not think of a better way to usher in the wish list podcast for July and belatedly celebrate JT's birthday than talking through all this with you.
[00:59:50] And the other thoughts you have about heroes versus villains, about looking ahead to survivor 50 before we bid adieu? No, I mean, I think you've done such a brilliant job of summing it up, you know, and I do
[01:00:00] think, you know, that idea of like bringing back people who feel bigger than the franchise, but also to what's so exciting is like giving people an opportunity to rise above it, you know, and I think that's what's cool about like, you know, I was just talking with someone
[01:00:13] yesterday about how like there doesn't like in the 40s, you don't have that sense of like people who are like bigger than they're not bigger than the franchise, but like really like feel like titans of the franchise.
[01:00:21] And I think that's just simply from not having had a chance to perform in that way and not having like that label of like, I'm a hero or I'm a villain.
[01:00:28] I mean, or I'm an even I'm an all star, you know, where like you get suddenly this label of being a big character. And then to the sense of, you know, anyone can perform once well, right?
[01:00:43] But can you like pull it off a second time and like do be amazing, you know, in a different circumstance? And I'm just excited to see it. Well, Stephen, you are someone that continues to amaze. That's beautiful. I'm so happy to have you on here, though.
[01:00:56] We were talking before and I believe this is the first time that you and I have podcasted one on one, let alone like maybe podcasted in this capacity together. So happy to have any sort of reason to talk. So thrilling.
[01:01:06] I know, Mike, how did I do with chemistry? Oh, I think so. Listen, again, I'm not the scientist. Goodbye, Shannon Goss. I'm my new partner. Yes, been supplanted. The coup is official. Well, Stephen, why don't you plug for everybody anything that's going on in your neck of
[01:01:22] the woods, anything you want to hype up in terms of social media appearances, et cetera? I mean, you can follow me on Twitter and Stephen Fishback, Stephen Fishback, it's stephenfishbach and then that's that's that's all. So tomorrow, how do we move on from heroes versus villains?
[01:01:39] Is the question we asked at the time as well as this wish list. And the answer to both those questions is survivor Nicaragua. And so we are starting what some have colloquially referred to as the dark ages.
[01:01:51] But there is still plenty to mine out of these cast between what went right and what went wrong. So tomorrow I'll be joined by Sarah Carradine to break down the cast of Survivor Nicaragua. Stephen, I'm intrigued on your end.
[01:02:02] Is there anybody from Nicaragua that you would want in a perfect world to be on Survivor 50? I mean, first of all, we've got to get Chase Rice back in the family, you know, remind him where he came from. So that's more like putting him in his place.
[01:02:15] Take him down. Not humble. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, like there actually were a lot of big I mean, Sash, of course, was such a like a big player, a very fun character. Alina, I mean, Alina's not gotten her due. You know, I'm actually like truly, truly, truly.
[01:02:30] It might be too late for him now, but like I've always wanted Marty Piazza to come back like him not having returned up to this point, I think is like a big mess because he was such a big character who's so fun.
[01:02:38] He had like he was this combination of like a big player. He was like surprisingly good in the challenges, you know, brought a lot of personality to the game and like truly. I feel like Marty needs like should have come back.
[01:02:51] It may be like it may be a little bit late for Marty. And then, of course, like just on the sidelines to have Dan in his chair, like if you were like a sideline commentator, that would that would please me. That would please me greatly.
[01:02:59] Ja, ich meine, wenn wir ein Hologramm von Dan Limbo da haben, in Gulliver's Travels Chair, das wäre ein perfektes Welt. Das ist, wo du dein Budget CBS einstellen kannst. Aber für jetzt werden wir alles darüber sprechen in Nicaragua morgen mit Sarah Caradine,
[01:03:11] wenn wir zurück zu unserer gewohnten Routine zurückkommen, die Leute auf der Kurzliste zu stellen. Steven, danke so sehr. Wieder war es ein absoluter Vergnügen und danke euch alle so sehr fürs Zuhören.
[01:03:20] Wir sind morgen zurück, um Survivor Nicaragua mit Survivor Caradine zu veröffentlichen. Bis morgen, alle. Passt auf euch auf. Tschüss.