Today, Mike and AJ Norris (@Thekidnorris) discuss Season 15: China![00:00:14] Hi everybody and welcome back to the Survivor 50 Wishlist Podcast, an off-season series where we're determining who could and should come back for the upcoming returning season of Survivor 50. Today, come on, ride the train and ride it all
[00:00:32] the way to a Shaolin Temple as we are talking about Survivor China, a nice little like old-school nugget baked into the incredibly experimental era that was this middle school survivor as we are back to 16 contestants. We do have a final three,
[00:00:48] but we're showing people from different walks of life working together, perhaps working against each other under this incredibly fascinating historical setting in remote China. Of course, I am not alone here and I'm so happy I bit the apple to have this guy join me in this den of
[00:01:06] sin. It is the great AJ Norris. AJ, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here. There's no better sinner than I would rather be with her with. Oh, that was the sentence. That's going to
[00:01:17] be my new Twitter byline like the requested sinner of AJ Norris. Listen, it's going to be a good time. Let me tell you something. I forgot how many times they referenced Apple until my rewatch. I
[00:01:30] was like, oh my gosh. Well, define they. It's really just. I can't lean heavy into that. I was like, listen, I get it. The temptation of PG law. It's interesting, right? Because it's like,
[00:01:46] you know, they gave them Sun Tzu's The Art of War to read over the course of their time there. It seems like James more so got his hands on like the first book of the Bible. Like he was just
[00:01:54] reading Genesis cover to cover. It is like that that Adam and Eve story is fresh in my mind right now. Like that was one of the first things I read and I was like, you know what? That left a mark.
[00:02:03] Man, I'm watching out for you snakes. Oh, Leslie here. She's out here with me. That's a sign from God. Exactly. Sister Christian. Well, we're here to hopefully go to the church and genuflect to
[00:02:16] a select few to make this short list as we're looking ahead to whatever Survivor 50 is going to be. That is our duty today is to look through the cast of Survivor China specifically under the
[00:02:27] lens of who could, who should come back and what an interesting season of the show. Again, I'll say and I've been saying throughout these many weeks on the wish list that really the post all stars
[00:02:38] era really up through heroes versus villains was again this era of the show kind of tweaking things subtly. All the seasons prior to China did all these big swings. Of course we had, you know,
[00:02:52] Battle of the sexes again in Vanuatu. We had all the twists going on in Palau. We had the first time rixie returning players with newbies in Guatemala. We had the introduction of the hidden immunity idol get brought into everything. We had controversial twists like division by race
[00:03:07] and haves and have nots. And so fans even back then were requesting can we just go back to basics? And what's so interesting about this season AJ is that from the beginning from that aforementioned
[00:03:21] train ride to the Shaolin temple, Jeff's narration is really indicating this language that we really hadn't heard since the very beginning about very specifically like they come from all walks of life. A gay Mormon flight attendant, a sassy New York waitress, a poker player, a male model. They
[00:03:40] really made it a habit to cast these people from such disparate backgrounds. It felt like the first time in a long time that we really saw that be reflected. Now of course that's because we shrunk
[00:03:50] back the cast a little bit as well. So it's not like a lot of people were getting lost in the sauce or anything, but combine that with an incredibly culturally unique location in China
[00:04:01] and you do have such a unicorn of a season, especially in that era. This truly is such a unicorn of a season. It's one of my personal favorite seasons. I think it's one of the handful
[00:04:11] of seasons where if I'm like I'm trying to introduce someone to survivor, I would show them China as one of those first seasons that they should get. Like first off, like culturally, like they really
[00:04:20] eat up the scenery with this, especially in that premiere episode on the train ride and the temple. Like they were really like we are in this special and the challenges they were doing like also incorporated the culture that they were inhabiting. Yeah, they've got the shurikens,
[00:04:34] we've got wearing the armor and throwing the bolos at each other. I mean they were eating the scenery but then they were hungry an hour later unfortunately. They were so hungry, especially
[00:04:43] that girl PG, like they did not let her eat. She was trying to eat up the sudoku puzzles. She's good at those. But like China and it really does feel like a scale back like a low-key like
[00:04:58] a similar more basic format than what they were going through. Like there's no themes, like especially they got away from the race wars which I thank goodness. But you know that's
[00:05:07] that's a different story. Fiji was fun. And like this is such a strong cast. I feel like so dynamic like from top to bottom. I think there's like genuinely maybe one or two people who did not
[00:05:19] give much but like even from our first boot being chicken damn, like these are people that like came to play, came to have fun and I think Survivor knew they had something special on their hands.
[00:05:32] And like, like it's one of those things like you were talking about with Borneo, Survivor Second Chance is Survivor 41. Like when you have that Jeff narration, you know, you got something special, like something new. They're like ready to like
[00:05:44] sink their teeth into like this new experience and you just got to buckle in. And this is such a good right? Yeah. And so we get some really interesting stuff happening. I mean, probably like a gameplay
[00:05:52] perspective, you could look at a voting chart and be like, oh, well, the Fe Long's just steamrolled the John who's but there's so much inside of that. Of course, everything going on with maybe
[00:06:02] one of the most unfair twists in Survivor history or even again, this like, throwback to old school seasons does throw in a game FB twist here and there. And but it does build up an underdog for
[00:06:12] one of the most popular players at that time in a game. And then we get to see at the merge like we see this powerful Fe Long Alliance cut out their own right where they get rid of Jean Robert,
[00:06:22] they get rid of Frosty, they get rid of James. So it's not exactly like an alliance necessarily steamrolling their way to the end. There are, I think, some interesting dynamics in there. And it's helpfully buoyed by the personalities, including one of the funniest contestants in
[00:06:38] Survivor history and Courtney. Yes. 100%. And before we get to Courtney, who I love, I want to talk about Todd as like the basically reeling or the season. Like he's the reason why it's so much fun. Like, even though you might think it's like a straightforward thing, he's
[00:06:53] tossed on. I'm like, I'm bored by this. Let me go change it up. Let me go like add some spice to our TV show. Like it. This could be like a easy Pagani. Very simple. But Todd was like, let me look at my
[00:07:03] pieces. Which ones can I discard? And at times like making his allies upset with him, like trust them less and stuff. But he did not care. He's like, I'm here to play like Todd is the super
[00:07:14] fan of super fans like people. Yeah, I literally went out there and been like, I want to play to my heart's content. And I truly believe had Todd lost, he would've been OK because he played his
[00:07:23] heart out and left it on the field. And I think any super fan that like afterwards wants to do something similar to what Todd did. So I think it's. Well, let's stay on the Todd train here.
[00:07:32] Let's get into our contestants, starting with our final three. Todd, Courtney, Amanda. I mean, one of the strongest final threes in the show's history, in my opinion, obviously featuring a two time player, a three time player that we'll get into a little bit. And of course,
[00:07:50] one of the winners that many people say should return again, I think in a throwback to Borneo, I think there was a lot of talk at the time about like how comparable a Todd was to a Richard Hatch
[00:08:01] of like, OK, if this is the show's ode to the very first season, here is this like charismatic gay guy that no one necessarily expected would dominate the strategic game to absolutely mastermind so
[00:08:14] many things behind the scenes. And I absolutely love Todd. He was a bit of a firecracker as well. I love his relationship with James. And yeah, he was making questionable decisions sometimes,
[00:08:26] like, I don't know, giving James an idol and then telling him where to find the other idol and then not asking for said idol back. But at the same time, he was making those decisions all of the
[00:08:36] time. And then it culminates in one of the best final tribal council performances of a winner up there with Chris Doherty, up there with Marianne, where he was able to really successfully navigate
[00:08:47] the relationships that he had. And I think that goes a little bit under focus as well is that when it was with Richard Hatch, too, that we look at the confidence that they present to us and some
[00:08:57] of that cutthroat behavior. And I think we sometimes think, oh, this guy's just the strategist. He's not going to have any social relationships. He's going to make it to the end and get burned by
[00:09:06] everybody. But from what Todd's cast members have said, like he legitimately had sincere bonds with a lot of people out there. It didn't necessarily feel like people were voting against Courtney and Amanda as much as they did feel validated in wanting to vote for Todd. Like and like,
[00:09:25] first things first, like this is an extremely young final three to have here. I think I was like 22. I want to say I was 22. Amanda was 22. Courtney was 26. And the way he spoke at final
[00:09:37] tribal council, like you could not tell that he was 22. Like he had the confidence, he had the poise. Like his final tribal council was so impressive. No offense to like Courtney and Amanda. They were
[00:09:46] just not at the level that Todd was. And I think when you think of China, I think if you think of one thing, it's usually like James did not play his two idols they had. But like truly for me,
[00:09:56] what encapsulates the season is like Todd and John Robert, like at the final tribal council where he was able to shut the man up and get his vote. Yes. And so like I think Todd and I would like to push
[00:10:09] back on something you said about Todd. Like Todd was like the wolf in sheep's clothing, but the sheep's clothing was actively terrible. Like you could see the stitching, like the eyes weren't right. Like there's a wolf head inside the sheep's mouth. You're like this shouldn't be here.
[00:10:26] And like people were like looking at Todd, be like, Todd, you're a threat. You're a game. You're playing. You're not going to run this game. And then Todd just ran the game anyway. Like I really.
[00:10:35] Yeah. John Robert, didn't he like say to his face in like the early days, right? Like, oh yeah, we got to get rid of you. You're going to run the show if we let you go long enough.
[00:10:43] Yes. And look what they did. They let him run the show. Like as much as people were pushing back, like this man had some sort of charm to have people fall under his spell. So like I really think and
[00:10:54] I know what happens after is part of the reason why we have not seen Todd play again. But like I truly believe like had we seen Todd play another season, I truly think Todd would be
[00:11:04] in the conversation as one of the best players that we've ever seen. Plus, I think also we're super fans. It's always nice to sort of have that representation as well, where especially back in
[00:11:14] those days, you know, before the Cochran and Adam types of wins, we didn't necessarily have one of those super duper fans who has the show in their lifeblood, especially someone as young
[00:11:23] as Todd go on and dominate the game and win. They spoke about what happened after Survivor. And yes, that needs to be discussed for those that are not in the know. Todd has been battling with alcoholism
[00:11:36] for basically since his win. So the better part of 15 years where he officially appeared on an episode of Dr. Phil, I believe, were like his parents and kind of coerced him into doing it,
[00:11:48] which he was just in. God, to say like a state of disrepair would be an understatement. He was clearly not doing well. He was forced into rehab, left relapse, the point where he was experiencing
[00:12:01] seizures, seizures, went to rehab again. And I am so happy to say that he is doing so, so well. He is sober. He got married. He has started this fun little like pop Funko business where he'll
[00:12:15] create sort of these makeshift Funko pops of Survivor contestants. And on request as well, I believe one listener got one actually for Shannon Gus as of late. So like, I am so incredibly happy
[00:12:26] for Todd because I mean, as someone who to be cards up, AJ does have alcoholism in their family. Like I have seen firsthand how devastating those effects can be. And Todd has spoken about it.
[00:12:39] He's talking with T-Bird about how he basically like lost his trust from everyone inside of his inner circle. And it was only once he like had to start his career over again and became a waiter
[00:12:51] and became sober that he was able to kind of rebuild everything that had gotten destroyed through this terrible, terrible disease. For that reason, to your point, Todd was not really in consideration for winners of war. He had said that he was sent an email basically being like,
[00:13:09] do you have your ass together? He said yes, and he wasn't necessarily contacted. I'm of a couple minds about it. On the one hand, it could have been a liability thing where it
[00:13:18] certainly was maybe to ask him back prior to that season of like, OK, we don't want to put you in a bad place where you feel the need to send yourself down a really, really dark spiral. We don't want
[00:13:28] to be that enabler. The other side, though, I mean, I mentioned someone like Adam. I think there is a nonzero chance where they were casting winners at war and they kind of already had
[00:13:37] someone like Adam. And maybe they thought like he kind of fits the same archetype. And Adam is a bit younger and a bit more recent on the fans brains. Like I actively say, Adam is one of, if not my
[00:13:49] favorite survivor player ever. Like I just he brings me so much joy and energy in life. So like and him and Todd do fill a similar role. And I can understand with survivor going with Adam
[00:14:01] in that point in time and like also as someone who has family lineages with alcoholism and knowing how devastating and how damaging it is to the family unit, not just to yourself, but to the
[00:14:13] people that surround you. Like Todd potentially being out there as much as I would love to see it. I'm also understanding like the spiral came after his win and putting him in a similar situation
[00:14:24] like could be a trigger or anything like that. And I don't it's like hard to be like it's a tricky situation, which I understand. But I feel like personally for me, if Todd is like
[00:14:35] I am in this place where I'm healthy enough, I have my stuff together enough where I would like I'm able to play again and I will not fear the repercussions. I will love nothing more than
[00:14:45] see top like. And I agree. And it seems like AJ, he has that attitude. He says in his quarantine questionnaire, Dalton, is that even a question when asked, would you play again? In all caps,
[00:14:59] apps of freaking Lutely. My bags are already packed and in the closet waiting. So I think Todd is just waiting for that call to come in. I think he does feel mentally steeled enough, has mechanisms
[00:15:13] to get him through even some of those darkest moments. And I think right now really feels in a good place. And honestly, this might be a hot take if Todd Hertzog does not come back
[00:15:24] onto Survivor at some point, let alone 50 or something else. I actively think they are leaving money on the table because yes, with this series we've been talking about, especially with these old school contestants, the potential of, OK, if you bring them back, let's talk about what's
[00:15:40] changed in their lives since then. I mean, what an incredible story that this man nearly destroyed his life after winning Survivor, made his way up from the deepest depths and was able to not only
[00:15:54] climb out and survive and thrive because of it. Just the narrative rights itself. It's such a beautiful story that I think it has to be a slam dunk in a perfect world for him to return.
[00:16:08] Like he has such a great story of redemption. Like I've watched many of those clips of Todd and it's like I am looking at a man that's like so close to death and that is like actively like
[00:16:21] doing damage to himself and hurting his family and loved ones. And for him to even be able to make a bounce back and to have this successful Funko Pop career, I think like this is such a
[00:16:32] great, compelling story that I think people need to hear. Like I think there are so many people that are struggling that I think would benefit from hearing what Todd had to go through and how he
[00:16:41] has returned to this great place and a better state of mind and able to feel like a work, family, etc. I'm so happy you said that because yeah, I think that's something that I really appreciated among
[00:16:52] Carolyn's story. A lot of others is the fact that surprisingly through 46 seasons of Survivor, addiction is not something that's really been talked about. We've had Vetus and we had Carolyn
[00:17:03] talk about it, but it is I mean, you and I can testify to this such a large part of so many people's daily lives and influences, you know, their friends, their family and how they freaking
[00:17:14] get up in the morning and go to bed at night. And I think, you know, sometimes that subject is kind of left on the cutting room floor based on the people they cast or how they edit it. And I think
[00:17:23] having Todd there as again, sort of a representative of it may be tough to do, but you can get through this. I think it's just such incredible story potential. So add on to the fact that he is
[00:17:35] such a great player as well and is also 39 years old and has also probably learned a lot about the world as well. Being 17 years old, wiser, this is probably as strong as the China cast is. AJ,
[00:17:47] this is my number one with a bullet that I want on the shortlist. I agree with you 100%. That Todd is my number one person for both his story and plus if he goes out there, I can say
[00:18:00] more than like so many other people. This man's going to play like this man is also like not going to like, he's like, this is my second chance. I'm blessed to still be here. I'm lucky to even
[00:18:09] get the second chance. I'm not going to waste this time. Like similar to how he like came on and played the first season. I think he would do it again if he was able to come back for Survivor 50.
[00:18:17] I think Todd is such a compelling character, such a fun character and like such a needed character. I'm like CVS. If I had one choice, one person like Todd literally is on the top of my list over
[00:18:29] like 46 seasons at this point in time. Like Todd is the guy I feel like. And then you also got nostalgia people that will look back and like, oh, Survivor China. We got this old school player.
[00:18:39] I'm so excited to see how he handles this new era. Like Todd, that's my boy.
[00:19:30] I'm going to go. All right, so let's move on to our other two members of the final three. And sadly, we have to and can yada yada through one of them because when asked in her quarantine
[00:19:57] questionnaire as to whether she returned again, Courtney Yates replied. I don't think the skill set that I bring that made me successful on Survivor is relevant anymore. I was OK on it
[00:20:08] because I made good relationships with people and make people laugh. But I don't think it would serve me well now. So I probably wouldn't, to be honest, unless it was a really specific theme and they
[00:20:17] really, really needed me to do it. So if it was super specific and was like underweight mouth versus something else, I always said they're welcome to make the offer. I can't refuse. But personally, I'm good. I'm happy where I've stopped on that ride. Now, sometimes I'm taking
[00:20:33] the answers of like it has to be a specific theme to be like, oh, it could be legends. I don't think Courtney is necessarily the type to be like, oh, yes, I will only do it if it's
[00:20:42] a legend season. I think in true Courtney humor fashion, it does seem like the only thing she come back for would be underweight loudmouth versus. No, I don't think Courtney would come
[00:20:54] back. I don't think she will want to personally like I will love nothing more. Courtney is one of my most favorite Survivor contestants. She's like one of the best to do it in the confessionals.
[00:21:03] She is snarky. She's funny. She's hilarious. And I believe like no matter what the upcoming generation is, whether it was Gen Z, Gen Alpha, whatever generation is after Gen Alpha, she could be their avatar. Yeah, that's like, you know what? Screw these bigger people. Screw
[00:21:19] the big man. I'm here. I want to do things my way. That's why. Yeah. Did you win an immunity, Jean Robert? Like I love Courtney with my entire heart and soul. And I do think.
[00:21:32] I think she has some validity. I think Courtney's game does not go as well in the modern era, whereas like Heroes vs. Villains, people talk about when she came back, had it been Sandra,
[00:21:42] there's a good chance that Courtney is the person that ultimately wins the season. So it's like, it's so upsetting because like imagine Courtney playing again, like I would just be grinning
[00:21:50] from ear to ear. Yeah, but I don't want it Heroes vs. Villains style where like we barely see her like yeah, such great gold and even the content she gave us in Heroes vs. Villains of her doing
[00:22:00] her Russell impression like that was great. So it felt a little bit robbed of like we don't need an under the radar Courtney Yates. We just need her mouthing off the entire time to have the full
[00:22:10] experience. Yeah, yeah. But love Courtney Yates. I'm so like the fact that this woman was the runner up like that's insane. Yeah. Like I'm happy for Courtney. I'm like Justin, go watch Courtney's greatest moments on YouTube. I'm pretty sure it's on there or just rewatch the season.
[00:22:25] Like you will not be disappointed about what you get from Courtney. I want to talk about Amanda Kimmel because AJ talk about you had to be there. I think we look back on Amanda Kimmel and I think people are like.
[00:22:40] Why did she get brought back three times? She's such a boring player, etc. And it's wild to say, but for a brief period of time, AJ, Amanda Kimmel was regarded as one of the best players in
[00:22:54] survivor history like just went to final tribal council in back to back season. She's the first player in survivor history to go to two final tribal councils in her first two seasons.
[00:23:08] Like and I think she has the record still or maybe close to like the most number of days while being voted out a survivor. Yeah, I think I think something like that. I know that she was
[00:23:16] the first officially to cap the 100 day mark in during Heroes versus Villains. Obviously, she was eclipsed by so many people since then. But yeah, she played three times and was voted
[00:23:27] out once. I think she's only one of like a handful of players alongside like Andrea and Sarah Lucina to make the jury every single time she played. Look, does she have flaws in her game? Absolutely.
[00:23:39] Namely, putting her in front of a jury to get a million dollars. Where I think as was called out by I believe it was Alexis that she kind of has this deer in headlights and simultaneous
[00:23:51] doe eyed look to her where she is not really able to explain or justify her game when push comes to shove. But the odd thing is, is that like when you actually look at her game, there is a lot of
[00:24:04] there there, especially in survivor Micronesia, where she finds an idol and plays it successfully without anybody knowing except for Harvey, that she was able to survive her own showmance getting blindsided. And then she's still brought in on this majority alliance where she wins that final
[00:24:20] immunity and takes out probably the odds on favorite to win the game in Surrey in the form of China. Yes, she is a little bit meeker. She's more so perhaps known as the one that probably
[00:24:32] increased the budget for this, the editing tenfold by just being blurred all the time. But like she was one of the people that made the major push from our perspective to take out James with two
[00:24:43] idols, something that was an absolute huge move. To me, there are a few players in survivor history where like if they are on a season, I can almost always rely on them to go at least pretty far
[00:24:55] every time Amanda Kimmel is one of those players. And while it's not as flashy and big as some of the legends that I think, frankly, it's underrated in a twenty twenty four lens.
[00:25:07] Like I'll be honest with you, I was one of those people that actively underrated Amanda. I was like, she's fine, she's OK. And then we watched. I'm like, oh, there really was more here than I
[00:25:17] was even led to believe. Like she is like I didn't realize she was more of the stabilizing factor between her and Todd. Like she's more that's more grounded person to do and be like,
[00:25:26] no, this is the right move for us, for our alliance. We want to get to the end. We got to do it like this. Like Amanda is naturally so good at this game. Like she has the natural skill
[00:25:33] set. She has natural charm and charisma. I think one of her bigger issues is like when she actually votes the people out, I feel like it feels worse coming from Amanda than it does from other people.
[00:25:43] And that's what she got to work on. But I genuinely think like she being. I think at the point, like at one point in time, she was like overrated. Now she's actively underrated as a game player in the skill level and like literally put Amanda on any season,
[00:25:56] even today. Amanda is going to do well and Amanda is going to be in there with a shot. And like if she gets her public speaking better, baby boy, she's going to be tough.
[00:26:06] Yeah. So Amanda, like Todd, is thirty nine years old and for a while, especially after Heroes vs. Villains, where she had played three times in five, six seasons and, you know,
[00:26:18] had made it to the jury every time, made it to the end out of three times. She was all about like, I am just going to go on with my life. Survivor was a big part of my life, but I am done with it.
[00:26:29] She slipped into the recesses of Montana and hasn't necessarily popped up a bunch. You know, I don't even know if she's on social media, but she has started a family. But I will bring in
[00:26:41] a quote recently from a book that actually was written a while ago that I actually really recommend. It's a survivor collector's edition book is written by Cynthia Wang, and it does a whole compilation of the first 40 seasons of the show. And every season features an interview.
[00:26:59] And somehow this woman did the Lord, I mean, Jeff's work and tracked out an interview with Amanda Kimmel. When asked, what do you see as your legacy on the show? Amanda replies,
[00:27:09] and you could tell it's her because she starts by saying, oh, gosh, I don't know if I have a legacy. I think it's still funny when people recognize me in Montana, but I really want to go back
[00:27:21] one more time. The competitive part of me wants to do it again. I definitely did some things wrong each time I played, and I don't know. I wish I could go back and redo it. AJ, from my perspective,
[00:27:33] your wish is granted. Can I be honest? I think Amanda actively suffered from being on season 15. Like, I feel like it's just like season 11 or season nine. So she had time. She had a lot more
[00:27:45] time to like, read and analyze her game and analyze how she was portrayed and that she can make proper edits to her game so that way she can be stronger. But like literally, she was back
[00:27:54] to back 15, 16, 20. She was out there at 22 to like, part of why I like Challenge All-Stars, is you get to see these people that are so young. And now when they first played, now they come back more mature with more life experience. And I think Amanda coming back
[00:28:09] will be such an interesting, especially considering the quote that you just read. That sounds to me someone that's like, I didn't prove something to y'all at first. Y'all sleeping on me. That's not OK. I'm not OK with that. Well, and also considering that she's also linked up,
[00:28:22] obviously, with like, oh, she had this showmance with Ozzy. And obviously both of them have moved on in their own ways, though. Yeah, I do believe Ozzy is also on this balance that we could see
[00:28:30] happening in this mythical season. That would be you know, I'd be interested, though. Amanda without James or James without Amanda. All right. Yeah. So let's talk about that. Then let's segue into our jury here because we have our seven jurors. We have Jamie Jean Robert Frosty,
[00:28:48] the aforementioned James, Eric, PG and Denise. Yeah, let's start with James, because like you said, the three of them have played all of their seasons together. I believe every single time they've also started on the same tribe and they've all made the merge to
[00:29:03] actually James and I make the merge obviously to heroes versus villains, because let's talk about the legacy of James. I did an episode of You Thought You Knew with Kevin and Nigel,
[00:29:10] I think it was last year about James Clement, where again, I feel like it's a bit of a you had to be there type of moment where here comes this guy with like chiseled handsome looks,
[00:29:20] probably one of the best physiques in survivor history. And he is this like soft spoken grave digger when he is asked by Leslie on the first day, what do you do? He just replies, I bury people
[00:29:32] with full sincerity. And he eventually learns to become a bit more sociable to little almost Rudy ask of like, all right, well, I'm going to have to fit in with them or they're going to cast
[00:29:41] me out. And then as a result becomes absolutely hysterical, like an incredible character alongside Courtney as one of the funniest between us not understanding him laughing his head off about the thought of Jamie playing the piece of wood at tribal council, Micronesia, everything going on
[00:30:00] with what in the Nickelodeon is going on to all bitch during that when it rains and pours challenge to, you know, him reacting to Eric getting sucking Ceres fingers of like that boy's nasty. There's
[00:30:11] something wrong with him. So again, those first two seasons are incredible and it culminates with him getting what was, you know, the sprint fan favorite prize was the award now back in 15 and 16
[00:30:25] comes back for 20. Not great. Well, like you say that, like first off, James, one of the most beloved characters in survivor history, like he's up there with like three, like this man has such a
[00:30:36] high approval rating as a character. So much funny. But even in his heroes versus villains, which was did not go great. You still have like the entire banana etiquette of it all.
[00:30:46] So like James is so hilarious as a person. He sometimes it's dry. Sometimes he knows what he's doing, but like no matter what you cannot have a smile on his face watching this man, like even when he's like in the majority being like, let's put gone these people.
[00:31:02] You're like, you know what, James, you got something that you do your thing. What? So like James is like always such a fun character, such an interesting person. And I think it's like one of such at least for this part of survivor history, like the teens to
[00:31:18] 20, like one of the biggest figures of the time period. So I think it's like actively would be a disservice if they actively do not consider this man because this man is amazing. And they just
[00:31:29] brought him back out during the reunion of yeah, on Ghost Island. So they brought Eric out. And it's interesting because I think he said in the moment that he just did not watch the show.
[00:31:39] I think for him, it was probably for many reasons, probably, you know, reliving one too many of his own ghost esque moments. I mean, yes, he did come back to more times. But remember,
[00:31:50] he was voted out with two idols in his pocket, which is an objectively ridiculous statement. I think James is actively the most unlucky survivor player. Like his entire running here, which was going was so unfortunate that he gets
[00:32:04] medivac and Micronesia. And yes, James actively got voted out and with two idols in his pockets. How can you not play one of them? But you're also playing against like Todd, who's one of the best Amanda, who's actively underrated. Like it's not like he got snowed
[00:32:19] by some simpletons like he was playing with a strong against a strong field. Yeah, that's interesting. So then to your point, is it a bit like ironically enough, the person that he ends up kind of deriding in Heroes versus Villains that puts everyone on his
[00:32:35] bad side in Stephanie, where, yes, she was the super heroic underdog in her first season. She made it far in her second season was more of a villain, but we don't necessarily talk about
[00:32:44] that. And we bring her back. But that'd be why you bring back James of like, listen, his third season wasn't great to your point. He had just the banana etiquette stuff, which was funny, especially him, you know, doing a reenactment of how to do banana etiquette.
[00:32:57] But at the same time, you know, what's personified as a bit of a negative Nancy and then gets injured and kind of just gets mercy killed out of the game. That's not an exclusion for you to bring him back for a fourth time.
[00:33:10] It's not an exclusion because there was a lot of funny days on Heroes versus Villains. So like him being one of them is like it's fine. It's interesting. But like it's still like, especially with like the diversity initiative, like he's one of the.
[00:33:24] Arguably one of the most well-known black people to play survivor. That's so true. Yeah, like so it's like James not being a part or at least being asked if I think it would be criminally underrated and like it is he going to be the biggest strategist out there
[00:33:41] on the field? Actively not. But that's not why we're bringing back James. We're bringing back James because he's hilarious and he's fun to watch. Yeah, I'm pretty sure if Dave Clement
[00:33:50] is also I don't know if he's on social media. I feel like there's a nonzero chance that he just kind of like went back to grave digging after that, you know, and slowly but surely people
[00:34:01] stop stopping him at funerals to say that they recognized him and get pictures, which is insane. Like you're at a funeral. What are you doing? Honestly, I think maybe it was like a precursor
[00:34:12] for how this fandom was going to be a day. We just had Kenzie complaining about people walking into her place of work to just talk survivor. James went through the exact same
[00:34:19] thing. It was just his was that a graveyard? Like let these people have peace. But, you know, James is amazing. I am watch. I'm actually reading a response that Eric himself posted
[00:34:31] five years ago on Survivor Reddit as to what is James Clement up to these days? He says, spend time with him at the Ghost Island reunion. And he is definitely more disengaged from Survivor
[00:34:38] and taking over his dad's mortuary business, which is a lot of work. He's essentially identical personality wise, and he always has been. And I said, spoiler when the tie vote in Ghost Island happened, I was geeking out along with the audience going a bit crazy and he genuinely
[00:34:52] couldn't care less, which was so I think more so from that perspective. I agree. I think it would be less so about production would be fine asking him back. I think the question might be, would
[00:35:02] James want to come back? I can see James not like similar to Amanda, but being genuine about it, like this virus was fine while he did it, but that's in his past. I can 100 percent see that.
[00:35:14] But like, just imagine James on the beach, all these people running around and he's just like, what are these kids doing? Imagine you're like reacting to the hide and seek. That would be unbelievable. Like, you know what, pause. We don't need James to play the season. We just
[00:35:30] need him in the color commentary booth. That's the thing is that I have slowly realized over the course of this series that there are people I want to put on the shortlist and then there are people
[00:35:37] to your point that we could just fly in to sit in on a challenge and just do color commentary for him in the Robins Andrews with the tribal council. Like, honestly, I wouldn't be mad at that.
[00:35:50] No. So I want to move to the other person who returned from this jury phase before we move into maybe some more question marks. Let's talk about P.G. So P.G., the last John who remaining
[00:36:04] obviously a bit of a polarizing character on the season, both in the game, considering the arguments that she got into, especially with the aforementioned James, as well as the audience, you know, definitely felt a certain way about what her and Jamie did to Aaron as an example in
[00:36:17] throwing the challenge. But I think especially after the season, people were saying, oh, we should get P.G. Another chance. She was someone that was actively trying to oppose Todd to the
[00:36:27] point that when the James vote happened, she was like, well, what if we told James to play his idol and then like throw a vote on Todd and then Todd ends up going there. And so it took a couple of
[00:36:36] tries. She was nearly on Micronesia the next season before they infamously decided to not make it all stars to and struck half the cast from it. P.G. finally came back in second chances and
[00:36:49] didn't go terribly well. It pretty much got undone the second that anything resembling Abby Maria's in P.G.'s bag that ends up spurring this very short lived rivalry that ends up getting them
[00:37:03] swapped onto this, you know, never before seen twist where they're thrown onto a new tribe and a new beach. And then super simple Abby's like, we got to get rid of P.G. She's sneaky.
[00:37:13] I got to she's got to be the next to go. And she's booted in 18th place. And I don't know, maybe it's just the fact that in the time since she has shown how much of a nerdy gamer she is,
[00:37:24] but it feels like we need to see more of her. I don't think there's been a single day that P.G. played survivor where she was not in danger. And I love her for it. Like, I like literally like
[00:37:39] we watch. I did not realize like the first time she was going to try to counsel her name was on the block because people were annoyed with her like P.G. like it is interesting that she's like
[00:37:47] such a polarizing figure. And I understand some people don't like Orange on this line. Who cares? But she was actively the underdogs of all underdogs. Like she kept trying to find her way
[00:37:56] into the power position and she kept calling and scratching and there was no way in. And then she had to win immunities and think of all these creative ways to save herself. Like beating
[00:38:07] getting fifth place in this season is actively insane. Like I love her so much. Like, and I think Todd was playing from the moment the game started. P.G. was also playing like P.G.'s another person.
[00:38:19] Like she's on the beach. She's playing. She's strategizing. She's even trying to figure out a way. Like I think like P.G. going third and second chances is one of the biggest travesties
[00:38:30] of that season. Yeah, we need P.G. on the beach. She again is currently 46, which obviously compared to again like Amanda and Todd being 39 is, you know, a step away from it. One year younger
[00:38:43] than James, actually. But again, the fact that especially during the pandemic, she was, you know, doing all these games of Secret H and Werewolf and Mafia with a bunch of survivor players. She has an escape room podcast. She's become like an escape room aficionado, and she definitely still
[00:39:00] keeps up with the show. She's not like an active podcast guest, but she is certainly someone that knows the new era. And it seems like the new era has had some interaction with her as well. So I
[00:39:09] do think she would also be a type from this season that like has enough of a bridge to all the new era players that will probably outnumber the old school players that she wouldn't be as much of a
[00:39:18] dead fish in the water as she was in Cambodia. No, no, I do think like and I think actively the new era style fits P.G. a lot more than when she ultimately played. Like because I remember so
[00:39:31] many times like in the season watching it be like, why is P.G. on? Why is she scheming? Why is she plotting? And it's like, no, that's what she's like. No, that's what I'm supposed to do.
[00:39:39] That's why they cast me. I'm here to play the game. Why are y'all not playing with me? All right, well, let's talk about some other some only one time players and we'll see if maybe there
[00:39:49] are some that we can try to put on for a second try. And it's a little bit of minefield with these. I'm going to start with I'm going to start with the biggest X factor here. I'm going to start with
[00:40:00] Frosty because I think Frosty in retrospect, again, had a little bit of a more under the radar edit. He was at the time sort of a game changer in his own regard, where famously up through 14
[00:40:14] seasons of Survivor, you had to be 21 and over to be on the show. But casting loved Frosty so much that he broke the mold. He was 20 years old when he was on Survivor China. He was someone that was obviously incredibly acrobatic. I remember all the way back to
[00:40:31] that first challenge where they had to like bring down these gates on this obstacle course. And he was just hopping from gate to gate rather than going down and back up. He's only proven those
[00:40:40] skills further and being on American Ninja Warrior a couple of times, had a brief dalliance in Hollywood. Frosty is one of those examples to me of someone whose personality doesn't necessarily
[00:40:52] leap off the screen. But the story of this guy being 20 years old and then coming on to Survivor at 37 years old, there's some there there to me. No, I agree. Like I was talking about earlier,
[00:41:06] I like seeing these people young, especially at the time, the youngest player at the time, getting a chance to come back now that he has matured, has lived more life, has more experiences under his boat. And I'll be honest with you, when I first watched China,
[00:41:18] I was a Frosty and Courtney guy. I was like, come on. Yeah, but he had his little like tangle cap turned to the side because it was 2008. Yeah. I think Frosty was actively a fun character. Again, under the radar,
[00:41:35] I agree, especially because the position he was put in because Aaron was through. Frosty was basically a spot through too. But like he was able to get the social skills to integrate himself, get the social skills, happen to walk upon Amanda and Todd fighting an idol.
[00:41:47] Well, we don't we don't. Also, let's see. He was also the one to own the only person to pay attention to the merge piece that when they got tested on it later, he actually asked it as opposed
[00:41:55] to everyone who was like, oh, I don't care. I was concentrating on the drinks. But either way, it doesn't matter how Frosty did it. Well, he got like one night play something like that.
[00:42:04] But still. But still, I think Frosty would be an interesting case to come back. I think he'll be a fun person to come back. I did feel like he was like low key, low key, not miscasted because
[00:42:15] I'm glad I got frosty, but he felt more like, you know, more of like MTV type personality than like the CBS Survivor type personality. Yeah, I do think that another reason why
[00:42:24] this season kind of sticks out around is because we are also in the Mac era of survivor, right? Where they're recruiting a lot more of the young, hot people on the show. And again,
[00:42:35] this is the season with no offense to a lot of these cast members that didn't necessarily feel like that was the case. Frosty and maybe a couple of these other people might be the exceptions that
[00:42:43] were. Yeah, I could see Frosty on a season of the real world as an example. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and I think his personality trait and his characteristics, especially if he wasn't doing
[00:42:52] most gaming and plot, I can understand why he gets like low key missed in the edit. But I'd be interested because listen, this is the show that you were birthed on. Like, well, he wasn't
[00:43:01] born on the show, but you know what I mean? Basically. So it's to be interesting for me to see like how Frosty would have changed in a modern era if he kept up with the show, whether
[00:43:13] he watched it more or whether he'd be like, you know, like a low key, like Wu type or like if he's like, no, I'm ready to game. I was 20 year old. I had no business being out there at the age
[00:43:22] of 20. But now that I'm 37, let me show you what I can actually do. All right. Well, I want to talk about the man sitting to his right here, Jean Robert, however you want to spell it. So here
[00:43:34] comes this poker player with a J, the perfect strategy to win survivor. Make yourself so hated in the beginning of the game. Don't do anything. Get in arguments with people. Ogle the women.
[00:43:49] And then once you hit the game, that's where that J.R.B. charm comes from, baby. Then you completely injure yourself to them. And people are like, wow, look what I did. I Henry Higgins,
[00:44:00] John Robert, you go with me, buddy, you and me to the end of the game. And then you showcase how much of a hardcore strategist you are. God, John Robert got clowned so much on this season,
[00:44:11] and it was so, so much fun to watch. And honestly, especially in retrospect, it does make his behaviors a little more palatable with the fact of like, yeah, but at the end of the day, like
[00:44:24] everyone's making fun of him behind his back. Like he shut up him at the end of it. This is a guy who will talk about the recipe for like the general sauce chicken they have on that overnight reward.
[00:44:36] And James remarked that I think they know how to make the general sauce chicken genre bear that this guy was just an incredible villain and how over the top and full of himself was, and especially
[00:44:47] in how much of a failure he was in everything he attempted to do on the show. Like he was such a cartoonish type villain, like like like a doofus merch, like he thinks he's all big and bad,
[00:45:00] but like literally like he's just being like clown and ran around circles. But he's like, you know what? Let me tell you something, Eric. I know who has the idol in this to me. No, I'm pretty sure that's James. Oh, I knew that.
[00:45:16] And then the great thing about it, too, is that he had this rival in Courtney, like every time genre bear said something, she was there to pipe up when he said that he was regarded in the poker
[00:45:28] world as a bit of a bad boy. She steps in to say, like, well, I can't imagine you riding a Harley. She compares him to Susan Lucci. She says his snoring is like choking a fat walrus.
[00:45:38] That's what makes this dynamic so good, is that again you speak about that cartoon like she was kind of the Jerry to his Tom. Yes. Like I think that's like part of what made it like more
[00:45:48] palatable is was like it felt like Courtney was punching up and she was like getting the best of him like two. So it was like, you know what? The fact that this man thinks he's all big and bad,
[00:45:58] but really he ain't nothing like we got funny energy like it's like listen, do I like watching him like make people uncomfortable when they sleep? No, actively not like that's a no, no.
[00:46:08] I don't care what your strategy is, no matter how dumb your strategy is. But like him thinking like he's like the best player on the field and people were showing him like, no, you're getting out
[00:46:18] played by the waitress from New York. Like I love that. Like it's such a fun storyline. Yeah. So I really go back and forth. I know a lot of people have said that they would want him to
[00:46:28] come back just because of that character that he was for what it's worth. Again, I completely agree that I think especially nowadays, the behaviors that he was able to do would not be allowed, obviously, especially in the wake of season 39 when it comes to things like, you know,
[00:46:42] him insisting that he cuddle with Courtney for warmth, despite the fact that she has nothing on her in terms of that or him, you know, talking about how he was going to get into the bathtub
[00:46:53] with Courtney and Amanda during the Charmin T reward. But also all that being said, look, Jean Robert is also older and hopefully wiser. He is 53. I believe now he is married. He has
[00:47:06] twin daughters. So I would imagine if he got brought back, he would not bringing that energy that unfortunately does not play well at 2024. I actively hope that John Robert has become a
[00:47:20] better person over the time. It's been 17 years. I will love nothing more for him to be better. He can be better off my screen because I do not see it again. Like, I think John Robert was fun
[00:47:31] for his role, but I think like the John Robert story is complete in my book. Like, like, I think like part of what made his story was so good. Like we were talking about was the fact that he had a
[00:47:40] foil in Courtney. I don't know if he's going to have the same type of foil if he were to come back. I don't know what his strategy would be coming back. It'd be interesting.
[00:47:48] A comma, but I think what we got from John Robert, it was a fun one and done in my personal. Let's talk about Denise here because we're talking about a nice gender, whatever you want to say here. So Denise is kind of this weird character too,
[00:48:06] because here is this lunch lady from the heart of Boston who, again, is playing a bit more of a choir game, but falls in with a Todd, with an Amanda, with a Courtney has this odd, like
[00:48:18] brief dalliance with James where he's like, if she was 10 years younger or I was 10 years older, we're like because of her work ethic, he really carries a torch for her quite literally. She's
[00:48:30] also the most well-studied person in martial arts where she gets to go into the Shaolin Temple and show off moves to all these children that ooh and ah at her. So I think on paper, Denise is such an
[00:48:43] interesting character and had some there where she is maybe in a different world trying to make some moves to push against the inevitable final three that was going to push her out at the end
[00:48:54] of the day. I think unfortunately it is all undone by what happens after the season. And for those of you that don't remember, so Denise expressed in the Survivor China reunion that because she was so recognizable from her time on national television, according to the superintendent
[00:49:13] of her school that she worked at, it was like actively being detrimental to getting kids to class. And so allegedly they had fired her and she had taken up a job now as a janitor instead.
[00:49:27] And Jeff Probst takes a commercial break and he comes back and says, Well, Mark Burnett is backstage. And because he heard about your story here, he is going to give you what was it? I think
[00:49:42] was a fifty thousand dollars maybe for being at fifty thousand dollars for everything that you underwent because of the show. Please put this to a good cause. I hope everything is OK with you.
[00:49:56] And, you know, obviously it takes her by surprise. It is then revealed after the fact that perhaps the story wasn't necessarily to the letter that Denise had described. And in fact, it's less so
[00:50:08] that Denise was fired from her job and was forced to become a janitor and more so that Denise took the janitor position, which had higher pay, better benefits, et cetera. Now, Denise has described
[00:50:20] I'm talking with T-Bird her side of the story, which was obviously she did not expect this amount of money to come her way as a result of telling this story. It wasn't like she was specifically
[00:50:29] coming on as much as we poke fun at people coming out to survive or for the sea of money. Yeah, people were thinking Denise was basically doing that was like, oh, you came on to purposely
[00:50:40] create this sob story of how you had gotten fired. So you get money for Mark Burnett. Clearly, she was not intending it. At the same time, it's also clearly not the version of things that
[00:50:49] happened. And even though Mark Burnett no longer has a thumbprint on the show, the way that he did even back in the days of the fall of 2007, I think the controversy really soured her in the eyes
[00:51:01] of production. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that was an actively bad look, especially hearing what the actually what went down and through. So I think I think Denise is an interesting character.
[00:51:16] And I think that Denise Mole has been proven to be a popular one, a fun one. Look at someone I know you want to talk about down the line, like a Lauren Rimmer or something. Yeah. Or like Elaine
[00:51:24] is like, yeah, yeah. So I think Denise as a as I think she's an interesting player, especially because she was such a stark contrast of everyone she was playing with, especially at the merge.
[00:51:38] Like Lauren had a family. She had a husband. She had kids and she had like a job. And these are young people that are like just living their best life, just vibing out or John
[00:51:50] Robert, a perfect player that has been taken to him like like. So like Denise was like, like such a fish out of water inside of this group that she was in. It was so interesting
[00:52:04] to see her navigate and make it the fourth place because at the beginning of the season, we're looking at the knees as the potential winner, threaten a jury threat. And when she was voted out, it was a shame because James was so ready to vote for James.
[00:52:15] Oh, if only. Absolutely. He would have pulled a Boston Robin like proposed her at the finale if he could help it. So and for what it's worth, Denise did after the fact, after everything was revealed, she did take the fifty thousand dollars and donated to the Elizabeth Glaser
[00:52:30] Pediatric AIDS Foundation, which at the time was sort of like survivors go to charity, all the torch auctions, the money ended up going in there. And so it's clear that she did not necessarily feel that she was doing this all to take money from production and from
[00:52:45] Mark Burnett. I just feel like unfortunately, due to the circumstances, even with a whole new production team, I think that the powers that be in Survivor would kind of view the incident,
[00:52:54] which did make a bit of national news as like this is something that is a bit taboo and we have to stay away from. Yeah, because that was a big deal when it happened. So I don't think
[00:53:04] they want to reopen that particular wound. And again, like stuff like this didn't happen on Survivor. Like you didn't like tell your story and then be like, oh, I feel bad. Let me give you
[00:53:13] some monetary. Fifty thousand dollars for the hardship that went through on the season. So I know that I'm pretty confident she'd had no clue that it was going to happen. Like and then she just found herself in this situation. So I'm not going to fault her too
[00:53:29] much, but I do not see a world where CBS right now is going to be like, yeah, let's bring Denise back. Well, on that note, I hate to have to bring this up, but I feel remiss not to talk about what
[00:53:43] happened with Eric and Jamie, because prior to this year, you know, there were one of the great Survivor love stories that, yes, they were obviously a little bit more underrated compared to Rob and Amber, but clearly they were having some flirtations as early as the first couple of
[00:54:00] episodes. And that flirtation turned to something more. I believe Eric proposed like almost a year after the Survivor China's episode has aired in 2008 and then 2009, the two of them got married. They have a child together. And this is going to get into some rather dark material. So please,
[00:54:19] if you do not want to be triggered by things like sexual assault and violence, please tune ahead a couple of minutes. We're going to move on from the pre-murders right after this, but I do need
[00:54:27] to mention it for those that don't know. This is very recent news. In May 2024, Jamie has filed for divorce, citing that Eric had apparently been excessively drinking around her, had flown into
[00:54:40] fits of rage, which led to bouts of violence. I had also been engaging in infidelity as well. A lot of domestic violence and abuse towards her and also at the end of it all, attempted rape.
[00:54:56] And so to that, I say that obviously I don't think these two would come back. I think that Jamie is going through a lot right now, and I don't think she would want to put herself back in the public
[00:55:06] eye. And Eric can get lost, you goat bleeding asshole. Let's move into the pre-murder, shall we? Let's talk about one thing real quick about. Please go ahead. First off, and I'm pretty sure
[00:55:18] y'all are going to do this, but there should be like the domestic violence hotline number. It should be there. Yes. And I hate that Jamie is currently going through everything that she
[00:55:27] currently is doing. And I agree, like this public spotlight is not for her right now. She needs to be with people who love her and protects her. With that being said, I think Jamie is actively
[00:55:37] one of the most unfortunate, well, not most unfortunate, but it's like an unfortunate case because I think Jamie will be forgotten in Survivor history. However, I think she has the Kelly Wentworth website or the Jenna Lewis website. She was a gamer. She came to play,
[00:55:52] you were talking about her throwing the challenge in pre-merge. She trying to find the item and stuff like that. She was actively one of the wheels that were turning. And I feel like on a different cast,
[00:56:02] like I said earlier, you're playing against people like Todd. And I think she got outplayed and I don't think that's... And they were played for laughs at that. But that girl was a thinker,
[00:56:10] she was a player. And I wish she was able to come back for a Micronesia or maybe a second chance ballot. And I think she would have been able to show fully flex her muscle,
[00:56:19] but it's so sad that I don't think she will ever get that chance personally. And so it sucks as a potential gamer and player that we won't ever get to see that. And again, one more time,
[00:56:30] my heart goes out to her and everything she's currently going through with her. All to her and her son. And yeah, if you're in the States, 800-799-7233 for the Domestic Violence Hotline. And we'll put that in the show notes as well. Great call out, AJ.
[00:56:44] Into our pre-murders, our pre-jury here, we have the aforementioned Chicken Damn. We have, of course, the late, great Ashley Massaro. May she rest in peace. Sister Christian, Leslie. And then we have Dave, the enigmatic leader of Jeanne Huu, who slaved away in a fire pit and
[00:57:02] got voted off before it could be completed. And then we have two of the people, as you mentioned, hosed by one of the most unfair twists in Survivor history in Aaron and in Sharia.
[00:57:12] And I want to talk about these two because I think if we're trying to bring back people along this line of unfinished business, it's hard to find two people, maybe alongside Michelle from Survivor
[00:57:24] Fiji of those that were really undone by production where again, for those who don't remember, the big twist was each tribe was given a list of people on the other tribe and the choice to bring
[00:57:35] over two, not three, not four, two to the other tribe, which basically meant, yep, you have a majority no matter what. And so they chose to basically bring over the physically strongest
[00:57:50] members of each tribe. And suffice it to say, each tribe went to tribal council once and surprise, surprise, the original tribe alliance ganged up on those that were on the outside and picked up a
[00:58:00] member of the opposite tribe here. I would say of the two, I think I would want to see Sharia back over Aaron with no offense to Aaron. He was sort of, you know, pimped into this leadership role by
[00:58:12] Todd in one of his first big moves to be like, yeah, he's going to take all the heat and I'll sort of sling into the shadows. But Sharia was such a great personality. I mean, her getting
[00:58:22] in the arguments with Dave, hiding his shells when she was in a fight with him that he was going to bring back to his family, like an absolute firecracker. And I would have loved to see a
[00:58:32] world where she had made the merge. No, I agree with you 100%. Like, I think if we're considering two people from the pre-merge, it is these two. Sharia was such a fun personality that we got
[00:58:42] stripped away unfairly so quickly. I don't like, like, like just thinking about it, like, we're watching that challenge, like, dang Sharia, if you just acknowledged PG, you would have heard the season. It hurts so much. And then James would have been like one of these two spots. But
[00:58:56] like, I think Sharia is such a fun personality. Like she was not afraid to mess it up with people who were getting on her nerves. She was not afraid to play the game and she loved the challenges.
[00:59:06] She was like a beast in the challenges. So I think Sharia going at this point in time was like such a disservice from a great survivor character and potentially player going down the line.
[00:59:16] So I think Sharia, it sucks that she was put in this bad spot, especially because like it really could have been like her or Frosty, but like, because Frosty had a relationship with Courtney
[00:59:28] and knew about the idol, like it came down to Sharia, which is so unlucky, so unfortunate for her. And then you have Aaron. And I know a lot of people like talk about trio of like Todd,
[00:59:38] Amanda, and Courtney. Before it was Todd, Amanda, and Courtney, it was Todd, Amanda, and Aaron. So it's like, so like, and like I know Todd put him in as the forefront of his alliance, but like
[00:59:48] Aaron was still a trusted person in that group. Like they were ready to move forward in that game. But because like what was the daughter's choice was like Jamie was able to go to the other tribe.
[00:59:57] Yeah, the kidnapping where you pick the other tribe to come to your camp. That person was given a clue to an idol that they would give to then a member of your tribe, the one that kidnapped
[01:00:07] you. Yes. And because Jamie was there, she was able to see how well integrated, how much better integrated Aaron was over James. And because Aaron was playing so good on his first tribe, he actively got screwed over in this position. So it's like so unfortunate that like
[01:00:20] these two people are two of the more screwed people in Survivor history. So it's like, yeah, I'll give a shout out to Dave as well. Dave is one of the honor leaders of a tribe
[01:00:32] I've seen in Survivor history. Yeah. Where he was just he's a former model. He was so eccentric and so egocentric where, again, he was so intensely concentrated on like, well, we have to build this
[01:00:44] fire pit. Every single camp scene would be about him dragging stones to make this thing happen. He was actively bristling with basically everyone around him getting in fights with Sharia, getting in fights with PG, the one reward challenge where they were fighting on these
[01:00:58] boats. He got naked for it and then just got tossed into the ocean by a log. And then eventually, despite his physical stature, John, who said enough is enough and they just got rid of him.
[01:01:12] No, truly like this man, like got on everyone's last nerves. And like that's such a fun premerge boot for me personally. Like you were saying, if the fights with Ashley were like hilarious as
[01:01:23] they went down, him and PG trying to figure out which one of us is going to be the leader of this tribe. It's like insane. Like the fact that he was like, no, this is how you do it. Walks all the way
[01:01:32] over to grab a brick and just drives it over to the fire pit and puts it down. Like, that's how you do it. It's like, there's a brick right there. You don't have to do all that. Like Dave is such
[01:01:41] a unique and interesting character in the lore of Survivor China. Like I genuinely forget like how insane and the nudity for what? Why did he like, I think it was to psych people out,
[01:01:54] but James just threw him in the water like a rag doll. Like he didn't care. So yeah, that's the thing. It's a little genre bear ask, right? We're like, here comes this guy gloating about everything that he's accomplished, that he's the only one that's working hard at
[01:02:07] camp and Sharia is it. And then he comes to these challenges. It kind of gets his ass. Well, that also has this odd personality where even when he gets kidnapped over to the other tribe,
[01:02:15] they're all like, oh, okay. Crazy Dave. Like, like literally no one on this cast wanted to be with him. No one wants to work with him. And yet he was like, I am the greatest thing walking on
[01:02:27] the China camps right now. So it's like, so like, yeah, so much to John will be like such a fun character, such an interesting personality. Like how do you made it further? Oh my gosh. Imagine
[01:02:38] him and Donald bear being together. I think that would just cause a particle acceleration explosion. That would be the Oppenheimer of Survivor. Like an atomic bomb got dropped in the middle of the
[01:02:49] muddy China backfields. No, but this was like so outrageous. But like I was, I'm was happy for what they brought. He brought a lot of fun and entertainment, especially in like the first three
[01:02:59] or four episodes that like he was like one of the big stars. He shined bright. He burnt out and then they kicked his ass out. Absolutely. So let's get into this because yeah, I mean some of these
[01:03:13] premerge characters to your point about the strength of this past, I think in a different type of season could be considered to get brought back. But then we have a little bit
[01:03:20] of a murderer's row of people here. So let me throw out who I think are some commonalities between us. I think that we would want Todd. Yes, I think we would want Amanda. What do you think?
[01:03:35] It's tough. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Like Amanda, like my number one was Todd. My number two is PG. I mean, I could agree with PG, but get the PG on as well. Yes. And then I think it was like
[01:03:48] such an active fight in my mind for that third spot. Like and like originally going into this, I'm be honest with you, I gave that spot to James. But like just hearing you talk about
[01:03:59] that Amanda wants this, like Amanda wants to come back and play and show something. I'm like, I would not be upset with giving her the chance to show these new school people like how it's done
[01:04:10] and show them not to look over my miss Amanda Kimmel. I'm Amanda fucking Kimmel. Like, get on my level. Like just from the idea of her actually saying that with her like Amanda
[01:04:20] fucking Kimmel, I would I would love it. So yeah, I would be good with putting her on. I think my big question is, you know, do we make room for a fourth? You know,
[01:04:32] is it someone like James? Because I think on paper it could be. But am I taking Eric Reichenbach for his word that this man is so disengaged with the community that he might not even want to do it?
[01:04:43] Like, here's the thing, right? Elizabeth Tassel back there. I want to do it. That ain't stopped her from asking her like. So like, let's like why not add James like you're actively going to sit here and tell me we have to bring back three people from
[01:05:02] Survivor China to be on the list and we're not having James and Amanda on the list like two faces of the time period of Survivor, not the season, the time period. Like I feel like it
[01:05:13] would be actively a disservice if James is left off. All right. You know what? I'm a bite that apple. I will put James on the list as a fourth year and I will let the listeners do what they
[01:05:24] may. How much will they remember first two seasons? James versus heroes versus village? But the four people were bringing forward from China are Todd, Amanda, PG and James. And it's tough because, again, you look at that list, you're like, oh, you're only bringing back the
[01:05:39] people that have returned plus Todd. But again, it speaks to not only the legacy that those people have brought, but like there's only so many spots we've already expanded to four. I think,
[01:05:48] you know, you would want to on paper maybe bring in people like a Sharia, like an errand, maybe even like a day. But I feel like they are unfortunately an echelon down from these
[01:05:58] first couple of years that it would be tough to find an argument to put them in over those four. Like it's like when you talk about like the top 10, top 20 people in Survivor history,
[01:06:07] not just the season, like these are names that are in that list. They are in the conversation that you're bringing up. And it's like actively unfortunate that these other people like
[01:06:16] do not get the opportunity to be in this shown in the same light. Like, you know how much fun I would have had being like Sharia, get your ass on this ballot. Like I would have loved to do that.
[01:06:27] You have no idea. But like this is such a strong cast, like on other seasons I could easily see me doing Sharia, but like I only have three spots and we gave me four. Yeah, exactly. And I will
[01:06:38] also say that, you know, this is going to be one of the longest podcasts we do. And it's to the fact that we have so many cast members to talk about. There's not a lot of people that were
[01:06:45] kind of yada yada-ing over. Last thing I want to ask that I've been doing with these is, is there a show that a Survivor China cast member could be on besides Survivor? I will start in that
[01:06:58] we need to keep Tough as Nails going, and for no reason to not have James on there as a contestant. Like Grave Digger James needs to happen in Tough as Nails. I didn't think of that, but yeah, Phil would love James.
[01:07:15] I feel like he would love Ruffer Lee, like steroids. Maybe quite literally in terms of his physique, but like James is an incredible personality. It's why he's on our list and I would love to see him on a show where he can really
[01:07:28] get his hands dirty and kind of like not need to think about strategy. No, I agree with you 100%. Like as soon as you said that, I said yes, full-heartedly. Yes, into my heart, gut and soul. Other people? I feel like, I got a couple people.
[01:07:43] I feel like first, if they were to do an American or English version of the Dello's plan, PG or Todd, I'd order them on there. Oh my gosh. That's such a good idea. Well, we know that
[01:07:53] the UK is doing the genius at some point in the next couple of years, maybe when they eventually bring Americans in or the America decides to do like a masternized import, they could have PG.
[01:08:01] If they try to say like, yeah, this is traitors, but more cerebral and they start bringing on other reality show contestants, they can bring on a PG or Todd. Yes. And another thing, like my first
[01:08:11] thought was like for the traders was a Courtney Yates, but I thought of something better. Put Courtney Yates on House of Villains or the goat. Oh my goodness. That's the thing is, I think
[01:08:24] Courtney and she could have it on the traders, but she needs like personalities like her to kind of work against. And I think House of Villains is absolutely perfect for that. Yes. And like,
[01:08:33] honestly, Courtney's at her best when she hates the people that she's with. And you know, stop. She's going to hate everyone she's on the show with. And she's just going to give it to us.
[01:08:42] Yeah. What's the quote that like she doesn't not hate Todd and Amanda. She just hates everybody else. And they mistake that for friendship. I love that woman. Oh my God. Well, AJ, I loved
[01:08:57] this podcast. This was an absolutely incredible time. You know, I think we had a lot of darker subject to talk about that we usually do for one of these podcasts. But I think you had a little
[01:09:06] bit such grace and we got into such a fantastic cast from such a fantastic season. Now, of course, some of these are going to be holdovers into the podcast I am doing tomorrow as we go to survivor
[01:09:17] micro at Nisha, where I'm going to be talking with I'm going to macro on micro, if you will. I'll be talking with Matt Scott about fans versus favorites. I mean, this is considered one of the
[01:09:29] best one two punches in survivor history, China into Micronesia. I'm curious. I'll say from a fan's perspective, because spoiler alert at this point, basically all the favorites have already been put on anybody from the fans tribe that you would want to see on the short list. So here's
[01:09:45] the hard thing, right? The answer is yes. I have one name, but here's the hard thing. Like first thing, like you have Eric, like the fan of all fans, but we like saw him play back and care
[01:09:53] moment. And like you said, with James, that's unfortunately my current experience with Eric. Like I remember him more for a second experience than his first time. And then people have always been chatting, chatting, chatting about Nally Bowen, how, you know, the jugglers confessionalist,
[01:10:06] like the final travel council speech of poverty. So like, I understand why people say Natalie Bowen. I will put forward personally as a fan, Tracy, yes, that woman on any other season will be the
[01:10:20] most deadly player on the field. And the fact that she was pre merged on this on my produce just tells you how strong Micronesia really is. So Tracy will be my push. Yes, it's primarily going to be a fan cast tomorrow, both by fans and about
[01:10:33] fans. But we'll see who we can pick from there to put on the ballot. Thank you all so much for listening. Jason, AJ, again, I cannot say enough about how great of a time. It's like a Jason
[01:10:42] Cisco for whatever reason, which would be like another great person to bring on. But anything you want to plug right now, AJ, the only thing I will plug right now is my podcast with the great
[01:10:55] Jay. We can't keep a secret. Go listen to us. We started season three of the coverage a couple of episodes back. We had the great Latanya Sparks on where we did a brand still
[01:11:05] like it was so much fun. So please come do a listen. Yeah, don't tempt me with a good time on that. All right. So we'll be back tomorrow covering Survivor Micronesia with Matt Scott.
[01:11:16] I am incredibly excited for that one. But this was such a great time. Of course, let us know your thoughts about this season and more in the comments either on YouTube or on
[01:11:26] social media. Thank you all again so much for listening. AJ, thank you again for being such a very nice. We'll be back tomorrow with Matt Scott covering Micronesia. Until next time, everybody take care. Bye bye.