Survivor 46 | Survivor Global Finale Week | Dino Paulo

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[00:03:10] Hello everyone, and welcome to RHAP's coverage of Survivor 46 for Survivor Global.

[00:03:17] I'm your host, Shannon Guss, here to talk about the finale.

[00:03:20] I feel like I have a lot of feelings and thoughts about something that, to credit myself, I predicted in full last week.

[00:03:28] You know, just credit to the edit, which I think told us that Kenzie was going to beat Charlie.

[00:03:32] Maria would come fifth, you know, fill in the blanks from there.

[00:03:35] But even in that, I couldn't have told you 10,000 miles away that Maria wouldn't vote for Charlie.

[00:03:42] So there's a lot to talk about and I'm very excited to talk about it with an amazing guest, a good friend, and the winner.

[00:03:47] Survivor South Africa Return of the Outcast, which I'll never get sick of saying.

[00:03:50] It's the great Dino Paolo.

[00:03:51] Dino, thank you for being here.

[00:03:53] Thanks so much for having me.

[00:03:54] And as always, thank you for the kind words.

[00:03:57] The highlight in that sentence is great friend for me.

[00:03:59] So that is the goal.

[00:04:02] No, it's always super fun being here.

[00:04:04] And like I said before even coming on here, it's always so intimidating to sit here opposite you, who is so good at what you do.

[00:04:12] And I feel like such a fool sometimes.

[00:04:14] So hopefully I get to keep up with you.

[00:04:16] And yeah, I'm just looking forward to chatting with a friend about a game that we absolutely love.

[00:04:21] And a great season, I think.

[00:04:22] Me too.

[00:04:23] Well, I mean, look, I'm so good at this, you know.

[00:04:25] I already complimented myself before I even introduced you.

[00:04:27] So like this is podcasting, Dino.

[00:04:29] But I am so excited to talk about this with you.

[00:04:32] There's so much around the results.

[00:04:35] I feel like mostly Final Travel Council and the results.

[00:04:38] I felt like first half of the episode kind of sleepy, kind of missing Q, I felt, you know?

[00:04:43] Like it wasn't very funny.

[00:04:45] And then when we got to Final Travel Council, like when I was watching last night at the Sydney viewing party, and then everyone's like cracking up at Q.

[00:04:51] Like this is what we're—let's lit the room on fire.

[00:04:53] Like this is more than even the fire, which was super boring.

[00:04:56] So I think that's what it was missing a little bit.

[00:04:58] But then I thought Final Travel Council was also ironically the more heated part and then the votes.

[00:05:04] And I was like, now we're in it, you know?

[00:05:05] So I'm excited to talk about the finale with you.

[00:05:07] But before we do, Dino, tell the people how you're doing living life as a Survivor winner as you continue to be.

[00:05:13] Every day of your life will always be a Survivor winner.

[00:05:15] How's life for you?

[00:05:17] Life has been going very well, thanks, Shannon.

[00:05:21] I think last time we chatted was really down in Cape Town.

[00:05:24] Kirsten and I had moved down to Cape Town.

[00:05:27] It was around—I think the last—not the last time we chatted.

[00:05:29] Last time we did a finale, which was, I think, 43.

[00:05:34] So it's been about 18 months now that we've been here, and we've been really enjoying Cape Town, loving life down here.

[00:05:39] I'm very fortunate to do something that I love every day, which is obviously my business, Hint Hunt.

[00:05:43] So yeah, in a very good space and enjoying it.

[00:05:47] And yes, do still have to pinch myself and be like, hey, you know, I won that show.

[00:05:51] Or when I'm watching 46 and people hit the mats and they're about to take on a challenge and I go, man, that must be so cool.

[00:05:56] I'm like, actually, wait, it is so cool.

[00:05:57] So yeah, being just—being a Survivor cast away is the absolute gift.

[00:06:03] And being a winner is like the cherry on top.

[00:06:05] So yeah, thank you.

[00:06:07] Well, I do feel like your life—I mean this in a very complimentary way as someone who's like a kid at heart and just did all the Disney parts.

[00:06:13] But like your life is kind of like a 12-year-old's dream if you think about it.

[00:06:16] You're like a escape room owning, skydiving Survivor winner.

[00:06:20] Like it sounds made up.

[00:06:23] It is pretty cool.

[00:06:24] I mean for the 13, 12, 11-year-old inside me, it is pretty cool.

[00:06:28] And I think that's probably why it's gone that way is because I do try and, you know, please the inner child.

[00:06:34] Because my belief is like if you do anything that pleases your inner child, you do it with like the best intentions and you're going to be genuinely happy.

[00:06:39] Because that's actually like at your heart what you want.

[00:06:43] So I think that's probably why it's ended up this way.

[00:06:45] And I've also just been fortunate to my opportunities.

[00:06:47] So yeah.

[00:06:48] Classic humble Dino.

[00:06:50] I'm surprised you haven't apologized to me yet.

[00:06:52] I forgot to open it!

[00:06:55] I'd like to start by apologizing.

[00:06:56] For what?

[00:06:58] I don't know yet.

[00:06:59] For not having apologized sooner.

[00:07:01] Yeah, for not having anything to apologize for.

[00:07:04] Well, Dino, we've come to the end of the season.

[00:07:07] I know that you were like catching up.

[00:07:08] What are your kind of broad thoughts on the season and how it ended up?

[00:07:13] The season I thought was actually pretty great overall.

[00:07:16] I thought it started off a little bit negative for me.

[00:07:20] It was a couple of things that didn't sit too well.

[00:07:24] And, you know, pre-merge not having the tribe swap, seeing one tribe constantly go to travel,

[00:07:30] not being able to learn and get to know all the other characters was a bit of a dumber.

[00:07:35] And that's more formatting than anything else.

[00:07:38] But then post-merge was unreal.

[00:07:40] I think it was one of my favorite post-merge in a very long time.

[00:07:44] So overall, really, really enjoyed the season and the survivors alive and well.

[00:07:48] Yes.

[00:07:49] Well, okay, let's get to the edit-fillant.

[00:07:53] I'm trying to say elephant with edit in the middle.

[00:07:54] That's the pun that it's meant to be in the room

[00:07:56] because I want to talk about the season at large and then kind of get into it.

[00:07:59] But I feel like I can't do that without, as I said in the opener,

[00:08:02] talk about how you were watching and you were messaging me being like,

[00:08:05] I feel like Kenzie has a winner at it.

[00:08:08] I said last week, I felt like Kenzie had such a insulting winner at it,

[00:08:12] which I've now I've been saying I've really felt that since week 7.

[00:08:16] It came true.

[00:08:16] I thought that it was so obvious that you would now have to be Charlie

[00:08:19] because that's why it needed to be so evident.

[00:08:21] I don't think I'm a great edit reader.

[00:08:22] Like I think I'm I know I'm an obsessive fan.

[00:08:25] So it's under it's on that bar, but like I'm mostly reading the game.

[00:08:28] I don't think that I'm like, I don't do edgic.

[00:08:30] It just felt so obvious to me and I know that I put out the tweet people were kind of angry

[00:08:35] because they're like, well, we've had a very visible female winner,

[00:08:37] which is a rarity and which is great.

[00:08:39] But to clarify I I'm fine with the amount of content.

[00:08:42] I said this last week as well.

[00:08:43] I'm fine with the amount of content if I should even got less than Charlie,

[00:08:46] but it never felt like Charlie was winning.

[00:08:47] It was the way that it was editorialized.

[00:08:50] That was I felt like really spoon-fed to us

[00:08:53] and I felt like if they just pared back like 10% of that,

[00:08:57] it wouldn't have just felt like an inevitable March to finish,

[00:08:59] which to me just felt like it was never diverging

[00:09:02] and like a really good example of that is that we were showed so many times by her and Ben

[00:09:06] and then we find out they're like and this was probably also pretty evident

[00:09:11] that like it was like communally people were being kind,

[00:09:13] you know, like Charlie was as much he does say like,

[00:09:16] you know, Kenzie like my number one in the panic attacks,

[00:09:18] but like he said Charlie in X interviews pretty much as much

[00:09:21] and that like distinct note was just hit so hard as a way to kind of show this

[00:09:26] and I know that it's such a tough balance with a social winner over a more like tangible kind of strategic winner

[00:09:33] and I'd be social versus strategy is probably more complex than that,

[00:09:36] but I felt like it was really obvious.

[00:09:39] So in that you were telling me you felt like Kenzie win was obvious.

[00:09:42] Please validate that because people like it wasn't it was right.

[00:09:44] It was really obvious. She was going to win.

[00:09:48] I think there was a part of me that was like it felt like I mean,

[00:09:54] she's also another let's throw the word out there deserving candidate,

[00:09:57] but somebody who is a really strong candidate for a win

[00:09:59] and would be a set more than satisfactory winner in line with somebody

[00:10:03] who I was personally rooting for which was which was Charlie

[00:10:05] because I thought his game was was quite brilliant, right?

[00:10:09] And I think that's probably why there's a part of me that was going.

[00:10:12] Oh, it could it's too good to be true.

[00:10:13] Maybe there was a bit of like negativity from my side of like don't get your hopes up high here.

[00:10:19] And that's why I felt like the edit has to be telling us.

[00:10:21] It's Kenzie when I was just trying to manage my own expectation.

[00:10:23] So maybe I didn't read into it as much as as much as you did, right?

[00:10:27] I read into it a lot.

[00:10:29] I definitely didn't read into it. I don't get paid to do this.

[00:10:32] I don't spend the hours and hours prepping like you do.

[00:10:34] I don't read into it as much but there's this there's this thing like

[00:10:40] there's a thought now that I had where I was like,

[00:10:44] you know what was it was it obvious wasn't it obvious

[00:10:47] and I kind of think you know what I would rather have the edits,

[00:10:50] you know be that 10% over if it is a 10% margin is that where I can actually understand

[00:10:55] why people voted for Kenzie and I've now seen her build the relationships

[00:10:59] and I've seen how they view her and then I've got an understanding

[00:11:02] and I've also got that like liking for her

[00:11:06] and I've built up that you know liking for her which she is a hugely likable character in person.

[00:11:12] So I'd rather have that than a case that you know,

[00:11:15] maybe there's a more balanced story in a way that they can only tell in so many minutes

[00:11:20] that favors one person then I'm left completely dissatisfied.

[00:11:23] So I don't know what's worse and actually so I was thinking about this your interview

[00:11:28] with David Forster was quite interesting because he actively says,

[00:11:32] oh yeah had Mark gone further the editor would have been completely different

[00:11:36] or had Raymond gone further and Ferris not won,

[00:11:40] Raymond would have got more like of the strategic content.

[00:11:43] I was sitting there like so sad. I was like I would have loved to have seen that content anyway

[00:11:46] in different ways because you know Australia's got the time

[00:11:48] and whatnot and I think that's where you know LaRue and them do so well is

[00:11:52] that they try to tell the most balanced version for as long as possible

[00:11:55] and then give you that kind of content to support the overall story towards the end,

[00:11:59] but the rest of it's quite balanced.

[00:12:00] They're not going to oh because this person wins I'm going to shunt your strategic content out

[00:12:06] in favor of theirs completely, you know,

[00:12:08] so I know David Forster takes it to like the next level.

[00:12:10] Anyway, I'm jumping around here but point being is that I think like you say

[00:12:13] edits is so hard to get.

[00:12:19] Kirsten, so my wife Kirsten who doesn't read into edits,

[00:12:22] who's more akin to a casual viewer, she picked up on what was going to happen

[00:12:28] when we were watching finale which is quite interesting or going into finale

[00:12:32] and she hadn't followed the season too closely.

[00:12:34] She was kind of following it in the background whilst she was working

[00:12:36] and she picked up on it.

[00:12:40] So, when she watches, she watches with like a casual eyes and super chilled not analyzing.

[00:12:46] So, it is quite interesting but not to put what you can't spell discredits without edits.

[00:12:53] Not to discredit the edit, but yeah,

[00:13:02] like I said, I'd rather have an outcome where I know why then not.

[00:13:09] I think yeah, that is hard and I understand that I'm also a different demographic

[00:13:12] where I need to know maybe a little bit less

[00:13:14] than as we're saying a casual viewer who maybe needs more.

[00:13:17] Like if they're being spoon-fed 20% to me that can feel like 40%.

[00:13:21] So, I understand that I'm not like and even our whole anyone listening to this podcast possibly

[00:13:25] is not like that broad fan base.

[00:13:27] So, I'm taking that into account but for my own personal viewing experience,

[00:13:29] you're right like Survive South Africa does the Schwartz and all winner edit

[00:13:32] where you know, they don't they edit it as if they don't know the winner

[00:13:38] and it's basically just like a window into the season

[00:13:40] and there have been times in Survive South Africa where I felt like

[00:13:43] I didn't understand wins that maybe were hard to understand

[00:13:47] without it like that needing to be kind of manufactured as more satisfying to me

[00:13:51] and I'm not saying that's true of Kenzie.

[00:13:53] I think this is a difficult story to tell but I feel like they would rather the audience

[00:13:56] as true of always Survive South Africa would rather the audience work for it a little bit

[00:14:00] rather than feeling like no, they might be dissatisfied

[00:14:02] because they can't meet us at a point which is something that especially Australian Survive

[00:14:05] and US Survival will do to kind of hand it to the audience.

[00:14:07] So, I think that that can be difficult too

[00:14:10] and I understand that's very difficult for a casual audience

[00:14:12] who will be like even more frustrated with the result that they don't really understand

[00:14:16] and I think that it's unfortunate for social winners

[00:14:18] where there's probably a lot to understand but it's harder to tell.

[00:14:21] So, I don't want to take away from that.

[00:14:23] I think it's just it's unfortunate that it's a difficult situation

[00:14:26] if that's it like if you don't want to blame the editors

[00:14:28] because it's a rock and a hard place as Ben would say one thing

[00:14:31] like you don't know you don't understand it enough.

[00:14:33] You're more angry one way, you know it too much

[00:14:35] but it was too obvious, too foretold kind of ruin the surprise.

[00:14:39] You now have to choose between two kind of less favorable options.

[00:14:42] So, it might be more of a situation for me like if I look at the rest of the new era

[00:14:46] they're like the other seasons that I'm quite high on

[00:14:49] just happen to have kind of easier stories to tell

[00:14:53] that were really satisfying like Dee and Jam Jam were kind of ahead

[00:14:57] but it never felt like they had it

[00:14:59] and then they win and it makes so much sense without it ever feeling like completely done.

[00:15:04] Marianne was perfect because for Marianne it was there suddenly in the edit

[00:15:08] and then she emerges so late and then you fully understand it

[00:15:10] but it's only right at the end now you're on the journey with her like right at the very end.

[00:15:13] So, I thought that was probably my favorite of the edits

[00:15:15] and then Erica's was like unforgivably minor like the complete opposite of this

[00:15:18] and Gabler's was also not a lot there

[00:15:21] but I feel like they probably tried as hard as they could

[00:15:23] and there wasn't a lot to give.

[00:15:24] So, if I look at it, I just feel like it's just a harder story to edit

[00:15:28] and I don't feel like any of the franchises probably

[00:15:31] because it's impossible have worked out how to edit a very social win.

[00:15:36] That's particularly I think that's like even especially particularly

[00:15:41] over like a kind of strategic losing finalist

[00:15:43] and maybe that's because it's really hard to show it.

[00:15:45] So, you have to tell it you have to tell about the social win

[00:15:48] and once I'm being told about it, I'm like why are you telling me this?

[00:15:51] This feels like a lot and then it feels like particularly evident.

[00:15:53] So, that was kind of my thoughts on it, but I do think it is,

[00:15:55] you know a difficult spot but it's tough that I do feel like I you know,

[00:15:59] we called it like half a season ago.

[00:16:01] So, it is it's so incredibly tough as well to show a social game, right?

[00:16:05] So, social players don't end up necessarily to an audience

[00:16:08] looking as impressive as a strategic player, right?

[00:16:14] And I mean I can empathize, you know, there's building social bonds

[00:16:18] is hours and hours and hours of chatting about life

[00:16:21] and just being there for people and you know,

[00:16:25] that's where you build the trust when people are going home

[00:16:27] with idols in their pockets and people going,

[00:16:28] oh it's so obvious.

[00:16:29] How could you not see that coming?

[00:16:31] It's because this person that you've just spilled your life to

[00:16:33] who you built this genuine bond with that you felt a genuine connection with,

[00:16:38] you know, has just kind of lied to you and you've believed them once again

[00:16:41] and you could believe them 99% of the time.

[00:16:42] This was the 1% you couldn't.

[00:16:43] It's really not that obvious, but it's so hard to show that

[00:16:48] because you don't have the hours and hours of them sitting boringly

[00:16:50] just listening to somebody else and just being an active listener.

[00:16:52] Like you can't it's so hard.

[00:16:54] So you've got to kind of spoon feed that a little bit to the audience

[00:16:58] to be like, okay cool.

[00:16:59] Well, how do we show that this person is social?

[00:17:02] Well, we see them talking about what about their social game

[00:17:05] and you see other people talking about how sociable they are

[00:17:08] and how they feel around this person, right?

[00:17:10] That's so you've got to put it in there somewhere.

[00:17:12] But I mean if we're talking about one aspect of the edit,

[00:17:15] I will say that overall I think the edit was quite fun, right?

[00:17:18] And I think overall, you know going into a lot of tribal councils

[00:17:23] going like, jeez, what's going to be the outcome?

[00:17:25] I mean there's some epic, epically close travels where like,

[00:17:28] you don't know which way is it actually going to go.

[00:17:30] Is that idol going to be pulled out or is it not going to be pulled out?

[00:17:32] Like it's pretty tight who's going where and you know,

[00:17:35] that's from a viewing perspective always great and exciting, right?

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:39] What was also great about the edit is, you know,

[00:17:42] these 90-minute episodes being able to give that softer content,

[00:17:45] you know, show us the Q-skirt moments,

[00:17:48] show us the 108, 109 Taylor Swift titles versus Metallica titles,

[00:17:53] you know that those moments.

[00:17:54] People didn't love that but yeah.

[00:17:55] I was like, I just think it's so great because now you get to see

[00:18:01] a bit into the camp life and how people keep themselves amused

[00:18:04] and entertained and the silly, silly things that people create

[00:18:07] bonds over, you know, like I think now that makes a whole lot more

[00:18:11] sense then when you get to the end of the season,

[00:18:13] you see how Ben is so caught up about who needs to put to fire.

[00:18:16] You think you saw the cast yourself back to those moments.

[00:18:18] They were having moments, these like bro connection moments

[00:18:20] from the beginning of the game that the editors have now given

[00:18:22] to us that make a lot more sense now, you know, as to why they've

[00:18:25] included it's not just about the fun.

[00:18:27] It's like these guys are connecting hard, you know, and yeah,

[00:18:31] so I think overall the edit actually did do a good job,

[00:18:35] even if we feel that maybe it was a bit,

[00:18:37] it did give it away a little bit.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:40] Well, I love the storytelling and that's why like through the week,

[00:18:43] like last week I spoke about how like if Kenzie won like that

[00:18:45] when I would feel was too egregious.

[00:18:47] I said that I felt like Maria winning would be insulting to the

[00:18:50] point of being sexist for editing a female like very like big

[00:18:55] game player that way like well under Charlie, Ben and Liz didn't

[00:18:59] get a lot.

[00:18:59] I'm like, I guess the only winner edit I would find satisfying

[00:19:02] would be Charlie's which would also make Maria's edit less

[00:19:05] insulting, you know, due to the disparity between them would

[00:19:07] be like it would add the context of like, oh he went so that's

[00:19:09] why that was because otherwise I'm like why again?

[00:19:12] Like I mean he comes second.

[00:19:13] He's getting a lot but it still was like quite disparate.

[00:19:15] So I realized that and I was upset because I have really liked

[00:19:19] the storytelling but in saying that I do understand it is very

[00:19:22] gendered when we talk about how those social games are hard to

[00:19:25] show not every time and this is, you know, very broad but often

[00:19:29] just because of again the patriarchy in society and how survivors

[00:19:33] of all of that.

[00:19:34] That's the game that women are allowed to play and the tools

[00:19:37] are allowed to use to get further and often it is very social.

[00:19:39] So that showed less and feeds into, you know, kind of a history

[00:19:43] across franchises of men getting more confessionals. Again for me

[00:19:46] it's not in the numbers but like men really getting to tell the

[00:19:48] story more and be those kind of big characters, you know, it's

[00:19:53] hard. It is hard in ways to criticize.

[00:19:55] Well, this was like a very very vocal, you know, really well-shown

[00:20:00] social female winner. A lot of that is very positive.

[00:20:03] I just think in a perfect world we're not calling the winner

[00:20:06] half, you know, half of the season into the point where we can

[00:20:09] also call, you know, who's going to who she's going to beat at

[00:20:12] the final Tribal Council and also like now like the very clear

[00:20:15] usually fifth place edit. Like I said with Maria, it feels like

[00:20:18] yeah, we're going to yada yada her so we can get through the

[00:20:20] rest of the finale.

[00:20:21] So there are tropes that they lint into that were clear but there

[00:20:24] are positives around kind of how that manifests for, you know,

[00:20:29] the edit or for these demographics because it can be really

[00:20:32] tough and there's like kind of these bigger things and just

[00:20:34] whether I feel spoiled.

[00:20:35] So I do think that this part of that as much as it took away a

[00:20:37] little bit from me, but in thinking about it now, because so

[00:20:42] much of this is like Maria's vote which we're going to talk about

[00:20:43] and like looking at it like that.

[00:20:45] Like I was rooting for Charlie, but I don't need Charlie to win

[00:20:48] to like the season.

[00:20:49] I think Kenzie's narrative is better than Charlie's as a winner.

[00:20:53] I love a Yanu person winning.

[00:20:54] I love the kind of fire bookends how they didn't have fire then

[00:20:57] she makes fire.

[00:20:58] I really enjoyed all of that.

[00:20:59] All of that's great.

[00:21:01] And then but then I was kind of like upset for Charlie like

[00:21:04] watching the after show.

[00:21:05] I do think was incredibly hard and like all of the stuff with

[00:21:09] Maria is so toxic.

[00:21:10] But now I'm thinking in the cold light of day, is this kind of

[00:21:14] great for the season?

[00:21:15] Like from a narrative perspective, edit aside, Maria's vote to me

[00:21:19] is obviously fascinating and historic.

[00:21:22] Well, I want to talk about it.

[00:21:23] I think maybe the most impactful individual jury vote globally

[00:21:26] since Sue Hawker will say that and we can talk through it.

[00:21:28] I think we referenced it for years.

[00:21:30] Yeah, and I've looked through to try and remember and I might

[00:21:33] have other examples that you know, are like flipping my mind,

[00:21:36] but like really it decides the winner as Ben has confirmed that

[00:21:38] he would have voted for Charlie.

[00:21:40] It's so super contentious and it's so in theme of the season because

[00:21:43] as Mike Bloom tweeted, turned on her number one ally.

[00:21:46] It's so toxic.

[00:21:48] It's like now in X interviews, like it's horrible but like this drama

[00:21:51] between them.

[00:21:52] It's so sad.

[00:21:52] Like if you're watching the real, I rewatched the finale after

[00:21:55] knowing she didn't vote for him and there's like they're holding

[00:21:56] hands when she goes and he's like future nephews just know your

[00:22:00] mom's a badass.

[00:22:00] I'm like this is actually devastating but in a way that does work

[00:22:03] with the dramatic toxicity of the season and like while I think

[00:22:07] had she voted for him it would have gone to a tie and then would

[00:22:10] have decided and that would have been cool and fun.

[00:22:11] Like I don't know we've seen a tie and I kind of think like this

[00:22:14] being the thing is like the drawcard certainly the finale for me

[00:22:17] and pretty much one of the drawcards of the season at large.

[00:22:20] Yeah, it gets people talking right?

[00:22:22] So talking about talking about the watching it back right?

[00:22:28] So I watched it back a second time last night and knowing the

[00:22:31] outcome all the little little hints that Maria wasn't going to

[00:22:36] vote for Charlie along the way where you know, there's certain

[00:22:39] things said and then there's a little cut shot to Maria dropped

[00:22:42] in here dropped in there.

[00:22:43] They're so so subtle but you know well played to the editors

[00:22:46] you know for dropping these things in you first time around

[00:22:48] you're definitely not clocking this and you yeah, I mean I went

[00:22:51] in thinking geez, you know, that's that's his bankable vote.

[00:22:55] You know, I still had the hope for Charlie even though we say

[00:22:56] like maybe there was this little bit of a preemptive winner

[00:23:02] I still went in with hope going like he could still take this down

[00:23:08] until up until Maria actively advocates against him at Tribal

[00:23:14] Council.

[00:23:15] I was thinking like she's locked in vote, you know, but then it's

[00:23:17] a deal a great job of dropping these little like subtle hints

[00:23:20] here and there and overall like you say for the outcome for

[00:23:24] this, you know, even if it was Ben, I mean she's like Kenzie

[00:23:29] Charlie winning for the season to be great either or would be

[00:23:32] it would have a devastating I'd be devastated for the losing

[00:23:36] finalist either way like if Kenzie if Kenzie didn't win the

[00:23:38] season, I'd also feel like she's you know, this is somebody

[00:23:40] who actually played a phenomenal game who went to freaking

[00:23:44] all the Tribals pretty much and and built that experience and

[00:23:49] navigated and was a target early on and then mitigate to death

[00:23:53] next level and then and you go like cheese, you know and was

[00:23:55] incredibly sociable and well-liked and I think that the vote

[00:23:59] reflects this as well as how actually how close it was, you

[00:24:02] know, sorry.

[00:24:04] I'm going slightly off track here, but no, I think I think

[00:24:09] I think it's it's one of the big things of why we love Savar.

[00:24:12] We didn't go in there going like okay, this person is definitely

[00:24:14] winning.

[00:24:15] It's a landslide victory, you know, the jury even went in and

[00:24:20] so many jurors went in and changed their minds, which is great

[00:24:22] to see, you know, I love it when it's like when people are

[00:24:25] caught up and they're going to make that split split second

[00:24:27] decision and go like okay cool because then it's like well,

[00:24:30] what was that moment that took it in your favor because that

[00:24:32] can happen at any Tribal Council and you could end up going

[00:24:34] home or staying and then winning the game.

[00:24:35] So I think it was it fits of the the post merge story for me,

[00:24:43] which was exciting riveting good TV tough at times but but

[00:24:49] but overall really really good and entertaining.

[00:24:52] Yeah in actuality beyond the edit this was so close and like

[00:24:57] really so exciting.

[00:24:58] I thought the final Tribal Council matchup between them was

[00:25:00] so riveting.

[00:25:02] I thought that the jury were harsh in ways, but they would

[00:25:05] also like commend them on good answers and really broad and

[00:25:07] I appreciated a lot of the different questions as much as

[00:25:09] they might have been on rubrics that I kind of assumed would

[00:25:12] be a little in theme with this season.

[00:25:15] The first is like what's individual move we're into fire a

[00:25:17] little bit.

[00:25:18] So as much as I don't agree with some of those kind of metrics

[00:25:21] to decide things.

[00:25:22] I thought they were bringing up with specific questions.

[00:25:23] I thought that Charlie and Kenzie both did really well, which

[00:25:26] we'll talk through and I thought it was really really exciting.

[00:25:28] It was so close.

[00:25:29] I mean, it was a 5-3 and while I D Austin was a 5-3 that kind

[00:25:32] of felt like Austin like eat out everybody could this was we

[00:25:34] know it almost went to a tie.

[00:25:36] It's like people were changing.

[00:25:37] It was in flux like that is so entertaining and so so interesting

[00:25:40] and to me by far again the best part of the finale that in

[00:25:44] ways yet really does add to the season but if we're going to

[00:25:46] go kind of from there and talk about the votes, I would love

[00:25:49] to talk about Maria's vote because I put it out there that

[00:25:52] I think is it the most impactful one votes in Sioux Hall?

[00:25:57] I know it's a big call and if other people have other examples,

[00:25:59] I'd love to hear them.

[00:26:01] My other example is Matt Rogers who was also in like a 5-4.

[00:26:04] He also voted against like his key ally.

[00:26:07] He seemed pretty bitter but I felt like more like Sean didn't

[00:26:11] manage that well, whereas I feel like this was really not on

[00:26:12] Charlie like Maria just like did this and we'll talk it through

[00:26:16] like to decide the game against her number one ally in a

[00:26:20] duo that for us is defined so much of this season.

[00:26:24] Yeah, it's hard for me to see an impact that big in 24 years

[00:26:28] and maybe I'm hyperbolic but it really feels that way for me

[00:26:31] and it's a lot.

[00:26:33] Let's talk about it.

[00:26:33] What did you think about Maria's vote?

[00:26:35] I don't have the recall or the knowledge to be able to say

[00:26:40] it's the most impactful in however many years in the entire

[00:26:44] history of the show but definitely has an impact and it could

[00:26:47] have been I mean anyone's vote could have actually changed

[00:26:51] that right anyone in the jury, but it's obviously Maria being

[00:26:55] the bankable one.

[00:26:55] It's Maria's one being the bankable one, right?

[00:26:59] Yeah.

[00:27:01] Man, like I alluded to earlier and I mentioned before we

[00:27:05] hopped on here.

[00:27:05] It's what for me was like quite disappointing was more so

[00:27:10] than her vote was it seemed like she actually made up her

[00:27:12] mind before going into that tribal council and what gave

[00:27:16] me that perception was that when Charlie was answering

[00:27:20] about his mistake and turning it around and he was saying

[00:27:22] yeah, you know, Mr.

[00:27:24] Q gives me this big wall up on the back and next thing I'm

[00:27:27] in the six, you know, and then Maria actively says well,

[00:27:32] you know you already there because you are there on my invitation

[00:27:34] and this that and next thing and I think that kind of in

[00:27:38] that little segment it makes me think that you know, you get

[00:27:43] to Ponderosa and there's a lot of chats about game and she

[00:27:47] just wants her game to be validated which by right, I mean

[00:27:51] she played a phenomenal game.

[00:27:53] That woman is a powerhouse.

[00:27:56] She is phenomenal and does well in any iteration any franchise

[00:28:01] any format like she is brilliant at this game, right?

[00:28:07] And I think there might be this thing where Ponderosa

[00:28:11] the power dynamic shifts a little bit and you know, she still

[00:28:14] wants that recognition for her game and not to give that

[00:28:16] credit to Charlie perhaps and then she sets her mind up there

[00:28:20] and then and really rules Charlie out because just the way

[00:28:22] she responded there seemed to be this little bit of a brashness

[00:28:25] whereas where you see like Tiff actively campaign for

[00:28:29] Kenzie, it felt like Maria derailed his tribal or derailed

[00:28:34] that answer in particular and then I wonder like how much

[00:28:36] of an impact that had upon Ponderosa and had she really had

[00:28:39] her mind up made up before she even went into that tribal

[00:28:42] which would be really sad if that was the case because

[00:28:46] it seemed like for the most part that the jury went into

[00:28:49] that tribal with open minds and probably still had open

[00:28:53] minds until the second some of them put the pen to paper

[00:28:55] right for the most part.

[00:28:57] So it was disappointing to see and I think like to try

[00:29:02] and to try and put myself in that position Phil and I played

[00:29:07] super tight.

[00:29:09] We played most of the game together.

[00:29:12] We made a lot of moves together.

[00:29:14] We're best mates, you know, we had so much fun.

[00:29:20] How would I feel if we got to final tribal and he didn't

[00:29:24] vote for me?

[00:29:25] I would have been personally and deeply deeply hurt.

[00:29:27] It's hard to not take personally when you built that bond

[00:29:30] with that person.

[00:29:31] So I want to I'm on like two sides of this, you know, like

[00:29:35] the jurors have the right to vote in any which way they

[00:29:38] they vote right?

[00:29:38] I mean absolutely.

[00:29:40] But but I can feel Charlie's pain here in the sense that

[00:29:45] like this is somebody who who better than anybody knows

[00:29:48] how well you actually played this game, you know for the

[00:29:51] person on the receiving end.

[00:29:53] I mean, you can't help it feel something negative for this

[00:29:56] person who has spent the entire game with you who knows

[00:29:58] your game as well as you do or better than anybody else

[00:30:01] perhaps because they were there in the middle with you

[00:30:03] while you're making those decisions that they're that person

[00:30:06] that you actually put there who tried to actually in fairness

[00:30:09] put you there as well, you know, they took a shot at you

[00:30:13] and missed and you happen to put them on the jury who you

[00:30:15] now hope to advocate for you and that that's got to be

[00:30:18] really like bitterly bitterly disappointed.

[00:30:20] But at the same time this is this is the game.

[00:30:21] I mean, this is why we love it because if we if this was

[00:30:24] predictable and people were supposed to act let's say,

[00:30:26] you know how they're supposed to would have lost interest

[00:30:30] in a long time because you'd see the same archetypes and

[00:30:33] then you'd see the same storyline and you see the same outcome

[00:30:36] and this is one of the things that we love about this game

[00:30:38] is that doesn't matter who you put there the outcomes

[00:30:41] can be different each time and people are unpredictable

[00:30:43] and I think that's Maria's vote as maybe personally

[00:30:47] disappointing as it might might be kind of just re-emphasizes

[00:30:52] the fact that Survive is this amazing unpredictable

[00:30:55] fun wild game that you just can't find a blueprint for

[00:30:58] to win. There's no right way like Charlie had very very

[00:31:02] few missteps perhaps maybe a little bit too risk-averse

[00:31:05] for this season particularly or for this jury and maybe

[00:31:09] not visual enough or whatever but very very few.

[00:31:12] I mean he's a phenomenal player does well in any season

[00:31:14] he plays in you can hardly fault him and he couldn't get

[00:31:17] it over the line, you know again against a formidable

[00:31:20] opponent sure not against just anyone but I guess maybe

[00:31:24] that's that that lends itself to the fact that Survive

[00:31:27] is this unpredictable fun game that we will continue to

[00:31:29] talk about for hours every season.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:31] Well, I love that's what I'm saying.

[00:31:32] Like I think I don't love the vote but I do think it's

[00:31:35] so fascinating and again like improves on the season

[00:31:37] in ways for me because it's such an interesting kind of

[00:31:40] storytelling element and such an interesting thing to do.

[00:31:42] It's very human which is what you know Survivor is they

[00:31:44] often say, you know Survive is not chess and this was

[00:31:47] so human but like in so in talking about like I feel

[00:31:49] like every time we talk about jury votes it gets pretty

[00:31:51] complex and I feel like I have to like give give like

[00:31:54] the prerequisite of my thoughts on and we just spoke

[00:31:58] about Gabler so recently but and this happens so often

[00:31:59] but I've always felt like we can criticize like votes

[00:32:03] the way we criticize kind of anything negative and

[00:32:05] I think it's hard because again like jurors only vote

[00:32:08] the only thing that matters for jurors vote is how they

[00:32:10] want to vote and then that's what decides to win but

[00:32:12] I still think you can criticize that on just like the

[00:32:15] metrics of just like human logic.

[00:32:18] Like if a juror wants to vote that way like again,

[00:32:19] that's all that matters.

[00:32:20] That's their power but I can still be like but I don't

[00:32:22] understand that reason as an example like Sydney and

[00:32:24] Kerong I always go back to her like she voted for

[00:32:27] Michelle because Aubrey voted for her but she voted

[00:32:29] for Aubrey when Michelle was immune as a final four

[00:32:31] like that doesn't make sense.

[00:32:32] Like it just doesn't make just because she's a juror

[00:32:33] that doesn't mean that she overwhelms logic so we

[00:32:36] can like that's your choice and it makes no sense,

[00:32:38] you know, but it's still it doesn't matter that makes

[00:32:40] no sense.

[00:32:40] It's still your vote still decides the outcome but

[00:32:42] we can still talk about it and I feel like for Maria

[00:32:45] like as an example like where she made a bad decision

[00:32:46] with the pizza.

[00:32:48] We all criticize that and that to be fair that's in

[00:32:51] her role as a player that spoke towards, you know,

[00:32:54] like how she's trying to win the game.

[00:32:56] So there's like again like a metric which we can

[00:32:58] use to analyze that that makes more sense.

[00:33:00] Whereas like this is like there are no stakes for

[00:33:02] her. We could only be criticizing it just like in

[00:33:05] the bounds of reality and I will that's that's how

[00:33:08] I feel, you know, but as she wants to vote she's

[00:33:10] entitled to vote this way, but this way is something

[00:33:12] I don't agree with and I feel like with jurors they

[00:33:14] might have not for her necessarily but hypocrisy a

[00:33:18] bias or wrong assessment like things that we usually

[00:33:20] deem as negative and that can be called out as much

[00:33:22] as it doesn't matter to the fact that their vote

[00:33:25] is ultimately what impacts the result.

[00:33:26] So for Maria now that I've done now, I should just

[00:33:29] have like a form that I submit every time I criticize

[00:33:32] a juror vote and then it just explains my briefing.

[00:33:35] But so for Maria, like so she has said and she

[00:33:38] and she was consistent in her exit interview with

[00:33:40] what she said at the after show which is you know,

[00:33:43] like firstly the fire in Kenzie's eyes when she

[00:33:45] made fire which like apparently they took a long

[00:33:47] time to make fire Charlie said and it wasn't.

[00:33:49] Yeah. Anyway, so the passion of that I don't know

[00:33:51] seems unfair in that Charlie is like that doesn't

[00:33:55] seem like anything like Charlie also is passionate.

[00:33:58] It might speak to like how Kenzie's a sparkly person

[00:34:00] and we'll talk through that like maybe just like

[00:34:02] connecting to like the larger-than-life character

[00:34:04] that Kenzie is which is really hard to go up against

[00:34:06] but the main thing that I do understand is that

[00:34:09] she basically connected to her story for why she

[00:34:11] wanted the money as a woman and a prospective mother

[00:34:14] and like the selflessness in that being selfish

[00:34:16] here and her journey in that and I feel like that's

[00:34:19] fair and that's something Charlie doesn't have but

[00:34:22] I can't imagine that that overwhelms what she has

[00:34:25] with Charlie where in every way this is like a family

[00:34:30] level connection for her on a social level from a

[00:34:32] game perspective.

[00:34:33] They played the same game and then he beat her

[00:34:36] considerably.

[00:34:37] So if she respects her own game and is going to

[00:34:39] come in thinking that she should get the win and

[00:34:41] is going to advocate for that which she is then

[00:34:43] how can you not even more respect Charlie for doing

[00:34:45] that and then beating you so definitively so I

[00:34:48] do I truly just don't like who she says she voted

[00:34:50] for Kenzie not like against Charlie, but it's going

[00:34:52] to it's going to impact Charlie.

[00:34:53] So in doing that how could like how could that meet

[00:34:57] the same threshold unless you have feelings of

[00:34:59] negativity for Charlie, which she's not addressing.

[00:35:03] So it makes me wonder because that kind of feels

[00:35:04] nonsensical and because there's like again now

[00:35:06] I like an elephant in the room around that negativity

[00:35:09] is there a bit of that negativity and as you say

[00:35:10] she's like going against him at Tribal Council where

[00:35:14] I feel like he should be able to advocate for other

[00:35:16] votes and kind of have her as like the sure thing.

[00:35:18] No, she wants it to she wants him to work for it

[00:35:20] for her and I don't think he thought that that

[00:35:22] was going to be necessary and she's like again

[00:35:24] like cutting him down actively.

[00:35:26] So it makes you wonder like are there unconscious

[00:35:28] maybe unconscious feelings of bitterness in like

[00:35:30] him being kept as the beta and not crediting his

[00:35:33] like win specifically over her.

[00:35:36] No one could say that I don't even know if she

[00:35:38] could definitively say that but without that context

[00:35:41] how Charlie even in his positivity with no negativity

[00:35:44] that's being addressed could be lapped by Kenzie

[00:35:48] for their kind of connection in this more singular

[00:35:52] way how that could happen.

[00:35:53] I can't really see it.

[00:35:54] It doesn't stack up for me in like a reasonable

[00:35:57] way if that's fair.

[00:36:00] Yes in short.

[00:36:02] Yes.

[00:36:03] Look, I don't have much more to add to that.

[00:36:07] I mean, I feel quite similarly and judging by what's

[00:36:11] online what's out there.

[00:36:12] There's a number of people who feel quite similarly

[00:36:14] does give us permission or the right to go and

[00:36:16] attack her for it.

[00:36:17] Absolutely not.

[00:36:17] Yeah.

[00:36:17] Oh my God.

[00:36:18] The sexism is crazy.

[00:36:20] It's pretty disgusting.

[00:36:21] Yeah, and I hope us discussing this and the views

[00:36:24] doesn't be misinterpreted for us attacking her

[00:36:28] decision, but maybe trying to make sense of certain

[00:36:31] things where we're finding that there's there's

[00:36:32] missing pieces and chances are we never going to

[00:36:35] find those pieces to put together right?

[00:36:37] Yeah, that's that's and we're just gonna have to

[00:36:39] accept it and move on and the reality is that I

[00:36:41] hope that for me the biggest thing is like we're

[00:36:45] trying to make sense of it and find peace.

[00:36:47] I can only imagine what Charlie's been trying

[00:36:49] to do for the past couple of months and I imagine

[00:36:51] this post game has been incredibly tough for him

[00:36:54] and I hope that he and it seems like he because

[00:36:56] for 25 especially I mean the boys so switched on

[00:36:59] and so freaking wow.

[00:37:02] I'm blown away by this guy in so many ways is

[00:37:05] so mature and I hope that he finds peace because

[00:37:10] it's an incredibly difficult thing to deal with

[00:37:12] this game is so tough and a lot of players go

[00:37:15] through it no matter where you are, you know,

[00:37:16] like you might go home third boots and go at least

[00:37:19] you were at final travel council, but your baggage

[00:37:21] is different.

[00:37:21] Your demons are different depending on where you

[00:37:23] exit the game right and his demons are going to

[00:37:27] be that much bigger just because he was that much

[00:37:29] closer right?

[00:37:29] So I do hope more than anything that he's found

[00:37:32] peace and he might not even find the pieces to

[00:37:34] those the puzzle that we're trying to make

[00:37:38] sense of but I hope that that's not you know,

[00:37:41] important for him to actually just you know, get

[00:37:43] some closure and and move on that he's okay,

[00:37:45] you know that to me is probably the bigger thing

[00:37:47] than us as fans being satisfied because we're never

[00:37:50] going to be and you're not going to satisfy anyone.

[00:37:52] So everyone sorry.

[00:37:54] Well, I yeah, I mean I feel for Charlie and I

[00:37:56] kind of want to talk about him and like where

[00:37:57] he went wrong in in terms of Maria one of my

[00:38:01] like new pet peeves in my many pet peeves is that

[00:38:06] like oh well it's all on the person in final

[00:38:09] travel council to appease the juror like anything

[00:38:11] that went wrong in that relationship has to be

[00:38:13] on them and like it's and I'm sure I've talked

[00:38:15] about it before but it's something that just

[00:38:16] like I really cannot vibe with because okay, that

[00:38:19] is actually true of the jurors vote because the

[00:38:21] juror has all the power in that imbalance of

[00:38:23] power in this fascinating relationship. But in

[00:38:25] again reality if we can like broaden out through

[00:38:29] this interaction, I think it's like kind of a

[00:38:30] dangerous rhetoric like you could extrapolate

[00:38:33] that out to other things where you're putting

[00:38:34] blame on someone in a situation where they have

[00:38:36] absolutely no blame and like now that becomes

[00:38:38] actually quite difficult. So yes as it as it

[00:38:40] pertains to the jurors vote.

[00:38:43] Like they it's like the customer is always right

[00:38:45] like the jurors always right in that sense, but

[00:38:47] as we know in hospitality also often not true.

[00:38:50] That's actually a great great comparison probably

[00:38:52] like to Charlie. I don't feel like he did anything

[00:38:55] wrong here. He argued his case really well. He

[00:38:57] was always kind and respectful to Maria. They

[00:39:00] both turned on each other as well. So it's not

[00:39:02] even like and again like it would be I guess her

[00:39:04] right to be a little bitter if it was just him

[00:39:06] but even so she was also turning him. So how

[00:39:08] much more could she understand that decision

[00:39:10] when she was doing it herself? And I just don't

[00:39:12] think that there was a lot there for that. He

[00:39:14] did wrong. Whereas I feel like jurors are often,

[00:39:17] you know, quote-unquote wrong or like in there

[00:39:21] you can like as humans right as jurors they can

[00:39:24] whatever they want their vote but as humans, I

[00:39:25] feel like they're emotional. They're hurt. They're

[00:39:28] on reality TV. No offense. So they're obviously

[00:39:30] ego driven probably and they're at their lowest

[00:39:33] moment like they're probably at their most

[00:39:35] illogical and again, they don't have to vote on

[00:39:36] logic. But like if we're looking at like where

[00:39:38] the relationship is like going off a cliff, it's

[00:39:41] probably the person who's like in that space

[00:39:43] even if for the juror vote they can do what they

[00:39:45] want and they're in time with you and as a

[00:39:46] customer they are right. So I don't feel like

[00:39:49] that's on Charlie and I again we'll talk about

[00:39:51] Charlie but I don't think he did a lot wrong and

[00:39:52] I don't think he did anything wrong with Maria.

[00:39:55] Sure, I was going to say I mean you talk about

[00:39:57] Joe being wrong. So take for example Q

[00:40:03] and Kenzie having their moment where Kenzie's

[00:40:04] like oh you were back and forth on Tim and he's

[00:40:07] like no, no I wasn't like objectively we know

[00:40:09] and even Tiff's like no, no you weren't. But in

[00:40:11] Q's world that was Q's truth and it came off as

[00:40:14] a bit gaslighty to say the least. It was like no

[00:40:16] you're crazy. I'm not crazy. You're crazy when

[00:40:18] he's the one that's mystery collecting but I

[00:40:20] don't think he was actually actively trying to

[00:40:23] gaslight her as he just remembered it in a

[00:40:25] different way and while he was wrong he was

[00:40:28] sticking to his guns because he believed he was

[00:40:29] right, you know, and it's not like he was trying

[00:40:30] he was like no you're telling me these things

[00:40:32] that no, no, I didn't go back and forth. You

[00:40:34] guys are going back and forth, you know, like

[00:40:37] and so objectively yes they can be wrong in

[00:40:39] certain things but that could have been

[00:40:42] the moment that flipped his vote from Kenzie

[00:40:44] to Charlie and then that could be the defining

[00:40:46] thing just as easily, you know, this juror who

[00:40:49] has this misperception of how things work. But

[00:40:51] these are the things and every jury is going

[00:40:54] to have them. You're going to have some players

[00:40:55] who are emotionally charged and they just don't

[00:41:00] like the fact that you voted them out and they

[00:41:02] can't forgive you even if at some point, you

[00:41:05] know that later on in the game they would have

[00:41:07] voted you out and been like oh it's part of the

[00:41:09] game suck it up, you know, like, you know do

[00:41:11] better, you know. That just is what it is. Is

[00:41:15] it nice? No. Does it feel fair? No, but it's a

[00:41:18] part of the game. You're going to have other

[00:41:20] jurors who are very balanced and you know, like

[00:41:25] I mean Hunter and Soda seem to be really

[00:41:28] really great with the way they, you know,

[00:41:31] facilitated some of the things and

[00:41:33] asked some of the questions and

[00:41:35] listened and their feedback. People like that

[00:41:39] who seem a little bit more balanced and in

[00:41:41] tune and maybe high levels of EQ, you're going

[00:41:44] to have that as well. So I guess it comes back

[00:41:46] to what you said where well now you've got to

[00:41:49] just make your case. You've got to if your

[00:41:51] social game is that good or if your game's been

[00:41:53] that good, you've got to know which points to hit

[00:41:55] with which jurors to try get them over the line,

[00:41:58] you know each, you know, everyone's metrics are

[00:42:00] different. Personally, I don't like the Q question

[00:42:02] of who's what are you going to do with money?

[00:42:05] And at the moment I was like I hate this question

[00:42:07] and she never, I'm like actually but why is my metric

[00:42:09] the right metric? I like strategy. Not everybody's

[00:42:11] going to be just a strategic thing. I'm like

[00:42:12] tell me strategically. How did you outplay everybody?

[00:42:15] I want to know. Give me the intricacies. When

[00:42:17] were you two steps ahead when we were kind of

[00:42:18] like struggling? I'm like I like that stuff.

[00:42:21] That's me, you know. He has every right in

[00:42:24] the world to ask that question and base his decision

[00:42:26] on what they put because that's what he values.

[00:42:28] So fantastic. You've just got to figure out a way

[00:42:30] to answer them in a way that appeases that person

[00:42:32] and gets them over the line. And if you don't

[00:42:34] feel like you have a strong enough case

[00:42:36] that's going to be the reason to win, well hope

[00:42:38] that your answer is good enough that he considers

[00:42:40] everything else is the thing to get him over the

[00:42:42] line, you know. And the same I suppose to bring

[00:42:45] it back to Maria, you know, like is she wrong

[00:42:51] or right about anything? I don't know. I don't

[00:42:53] necessarily know enough about the situation.

[00:42:54] I don't want to double down and just hammer her.

[00:42:58] But as a juror, that's her position and you know,

[00:43:01] maybe Charlie misread the situation, misread body

[00:43:05] language. Maybe he needed to pick up on certain

[00:43:09] things that might have hinted that she didn't

[00:43:11] guarantee a vote and address them in tribal council

[00:43:13] to get her over the line. Like it's hard to pick

[00:43:16] fault in Charlie's game here, but at the same

[00:43:18] time I'm also like you got to be responsible for

[00:43:20] your own game. For example, and now I'm going

[00:43:23] a different path here, it seemed to me that Charlie

[00:43:26] was very comfortable going to final tribal

[00:43:28] council with Kenzie. He didn't actually necessarily

[00:43:30] see her, he saw her as a threat, but he didn't

[00:43:33] see her as the most threatening to his game.

[00:43:36] Did he actually think Liz, I mean we see an edit

[00:43:39] of Liz where we think she's a bit like brash

[00:43:41] and a bit, you know, she loses a chair in there

[00:43:44] which you know people have said that she wasn't

[00:43:47] completely on tilt the entire game. We saw moments

[00:43:51] of it which is totally understandable when you're

[00:43:53] so deprived. But was Liz actually more threatening

[00:43:57] in game than Kenzie? Did Kenzie do what Charlie

[00:43:59] did just as well where she mitigated the threat

[00:44:02] level where she was this threat early on and then

[00:44:03] she mitigated the threat level and she duped

[00:44:06] Charlie into that false sense of comfort where

[00:44:08] Charlie doesn't go to Ben and say, hey Ben, put

[00:44:10] me in fire against her. You know, I need this

[00:44:12] because you know, so there's this element that

[00:44:14] you know, let's take it back off the jury and

[00:44:16] put it back onto the players where you've got

[00:44:18] to take responsibility for your game. And you

[00:44:20] know, again, like I said, it's very hard to poke

[00:44:22] holes in Charlie's game, but could he have done

[00:44:25] one or two things better? Probably because you

[00:44:28] know, he didn't win the game. So I know that's

[00:44:31] hard to say about somebody who we think did an

[00:44:33] excellent job and I think he's phenomenal, but

[00:44:35] I prefer to put that responsibility back on

[00:44:37] the players to go and win their own game. As

[00:44:39] frustrating as that might seem, you're up against

[00:44:41] these odds. It's not always going to be fair.

[00:44:43] It's not always going to be logical. But it's

[00:44:46] up to you to figure that out and try to find a

[00:44:48] way through it. And if you don't, well, fuck that

[00:44:51] sucks. Yeah. Well, I mean, I want to address

[00:44:54] a couple of those things. Firstly, on like the

[00:44:55] other votes, like Hugh's vote for example. I understand

[00:44:59] all the other votes and I think not that they

[00:45:00] even needed to be this way, but I think they did

[00:45:02] all kind of positively earn all the other votes.

[00:45:05] Even again on metrics we might not necessarily

[00:45:07] agree with. I think they're all clear and it's

[00:45:09] like especially with someone like Hugh where it

[00:45:10] was like the question of need. I think Kenzie

[00:45:12] did so well in answering that question. Obviously

[00:45:14] it seems like it got Hugh and maybe even Maria

[00:45:16] over the line. But what she did was that while

[00:45:18] the like Charlie and Ben, I feel kind of like

[00:45:20] gave like a wish list like for Santa of like the

[00:45:22] things they wanted for money. It was actually

[00:45:25] really indicative of what Kenzie does so well.

[00:45:26] She's a great framer. She's great. We talked about

[00:45:28] this last week in her communication style and

[00:45:31] which makes a lot of sense for a hairdresser

[00:45:32] who is talking all day. So for her, she's

[00:45:37] like communicating a narrative and she did it

[00:45:39] last week with like the family. Here's how I'm

[00:45:40] the protagonist and everyone's around me and I

[00:45:42] think she did so well in this where it wasn't

[00:45:43] just like here's what I want the money for. It's

[00:45:45] like here's why I need it. Here's how it connects

[00:45:47] to my journey. I thought she did really, really

[00:45:48] well with that. So it made all the sense in the

[00:45:50] world for me. And even though a lot of the votes

[00:45:52] were very surprising to me, I then understood

[00:45:54] them. Someone like Liz was very surprising.

[00:45:56] Apparently she was never voting for Kenzie,

[00:45:57] which was shocking to me. She was going to vote

[00:45:59] for Ben because she felt like Ben credited what

[00:46:01] she saw as her own threat level and then she

[00:46:03] voted for Charlie who she felt really explained

[00:46:05] like something like the final seven really well

[00:46:07] where he kind of got a win over her. And I

[00:46:10] understand that like I even though she's very

[00:46:12] close with Kenzie, I understand and definitely

[00:46:13] that's a value system of mine, but I understand

[00:46:15] that metric, even both of those metrics like you

[00:46:17] appeal to my ego like that's fine. I think for

[00:46:19] what Maria the issue is that I don't really

[00:46:21] understand it. I don't buy it. And I also I feel

[00:46:25] like also if she came out and was like, yeah,

[00:46:26] I was really upset that you got me or we would

[00:46:29] be like, hey, you're bitter but it would also be

[00:46:31] but also make more sense. It was a big thing

[00:46:32] with Gable where the jurors for so long barely

[00:46:34] spoke about any type of social game and just

[00:46:36] kept going on like if Cassidy may fight and

[00:46:38] like we just struggled for so long. I don't

[00:46:41] know if they were like ashamed of the rubric

[00:46:43] for their own vote. I mean they were getting a

[00:46:44] lot of hate but like throughout the reasons

[00:46:47] just never added up in a way that was like,

[00:46:50] hey, what's the missing piece and that makes

[00:46:51] it harder for us to analyze it and for Maria.

[00:46:54] I do think there are missing pieces because she

[00:46:55] has not spoken to any negative. She felt with

[00:46:57] Charlie and she actually has no reasons to feel,

[00:46:59] you know, objectively I think reason to feel

[00:47:01] negative with Charlie would be a flaw in her

[00:47:03] character a little, you know, it would be that

[00:47:05] to be your bitter your emotional like we all

[00:47:07] can be but you would have to point to that there

[00:47:09] would be a self-awareness to admit that and I

[00:47:11] think if she did that we'd be like, okay now

[00:47:13] we can kind of judge it on that and it would

[00:47:14] be clearer. So I understand all the rest. I

[00:47:16] understand, you know, every other juror, you

[00:47:19] know, Tevin was between the two. I can kind

[00:47:22] of see why both would speak to his part of his

[00:47:24] personality for Soda. She played more with

[00:47:27] Charlie, barely played with Kenzie probably

[00:47:29] couldn't like weave her magic a little bit

[00:47:30] more on her like I understand all of those.

[00:47:33] Yeah, even Liz which was surprising to me even

[00:47:35] Hunter who's like also like very game focused

[00:47:38] even though he was so close to Kenzie. It was

[00:47:39] surprising to me but I got it. I think with

[00:47:41] Maria, there's a missing piece that sometimes

[00:47:43] people can't vocalize to us let alone themselves

[00:47:44] because it points to something internal when

[00:47:46] we're meant to be like apparently all perfect

[00:47:48] all-knowing jurors, but it can actually be on

[00:47:50] a like a discrepancy in yourself a little bit

[00:47:53] that you're making this vote and you don't want

[00:47:54] to vocalize that. So I think that that's what

[00:47:56] it is with like the Maria vote on something

[00:47:58] like a so where did Charlie go wrong because

[00:48:00] Charlie lost, let's talk about because I've

[00:48:02] been very high on Charlie's game and I continue

[00:48:04] to be so it becomes like was Charlie robbed?

[00:48:07] That's the question. In the way of that he

[00:48:10] lost this I think baffling vote to lose you

[00:48:13] would think yes, but I'll still say no for the

[00:48:16] reason of for me if you're going to lose by

[00:48:18] one vote, that was a slim path could go either

[00:48:21] way like you can't have the whole thing being

[00:48:23] decided on one slim thing and then have

[00:48:25] that be the only reason you lost like we have

[00:48:27] to now talk about how the pathway was narrow

[00:48:29] and I'm critical of that for him to a degree

[00:48:30] even though I think situationally difficult.

[00:48:32] I'm critical of him for that and then it's

[00:48:34] for Kenzie even who wins that way you have

[00:48:35] to be a little bit critical, right? They both

[00:48:37] gave themselves a narrow path against each

[00:48:39] other in different ways which made it dicey

[00:48:42] and I think for that I would criticize

[00:48:45] that so is there anything like on the pathway

[00:48:48] that you think Charlie could have done to change

[00:48:50] his game because we see this perception that

[00:48:51] he was quite risk averse quite safe. Maybe not

[00:48:55] loud enough whereas Kenzie has like a big loud

[00:48:57] journey and she's such like a colorful presence.

[00:48:59] Do you see anything that you would have changed

[00:49:00] for Charlie or that yeah, you see any kind

[00:49:04] of different path there?

[00:49:08] To go was Charlie robbed? No because if Charlie

[00:49:12] wins then the question is was Kenzie robbed,

[00:49:14] right? Yeah, well that's both of them have the

[00:49:16] same pros and cons which is like you were so

[00:49:19] close so we have to praise that and now

[00:49:22] we also have to criticize that it was ever that

[00:49:23] dicey for each of you as winners and losers in

[00:49:25] this in the similar spot where it came down to

[00:49:27] like this one kind of 100% yeah, either way

[00:49:31] either way you were getting a phenomenal with

[00:49:32] it. Well, no right or you're getting a really

[00:49:34] really great winner and a satisfactory winner,

[00:49:36] you know somebody who you could be like wow

[00:49:38] that person has played a great game somebody

[00:49:41] who if you were going to be cast in a season

[00:49:43] survivor you could very easily point and be

[00:49:45] like I want to play a game like that person

[00:49:47] and be respected for that kind of viewpoint,

[00:49:48] you know, because they are so great. So in

[00:49:52] that case it's to throw the robbed turn around

[00:49:56] I would I wouldn't you know, I'd feel I think

[00:49:58] I think either of them would be a robbed loser,

[00:50:01] you know, to answer the question about Charlie

[00:50:05] where did he go wrong? It's like I said, it's

[00:50:07] very difficult because he played that middle game

[00:50:09] so so well and it is so tough. It is so difficult

[00:50:16] and Maria did it along with him and they did

[00:50:17] it so well to have some of their own relationships

[00:50:20] outside of just themselves and leverage those

[00:50:22] relationships that they had bring it in together

[00:50:24] discuss really have that level of trust amongst

[00:50:27] themselves have that one go a little bit further

[00:50:29] especially in the theme of the season where it

[00:50:31] was like get your number one before they get

[00:50:32] you and six six and five is the perfect time

[00:50:36] to do that really, you know earlier than that

[00:50:39] is a bit probably premature depending on the game.

[00:50:43] I mean everything changes and and to have played

[00:50:46] that middle ground for so long and maintain

[00:50:49] such good relationships for so long and go

[00:50:52] undetected in that way for so long is incredible,

[00:50:54] especially when you consider that the boys

[00:50:57] a challenge beast man. Like he was he was

[00:50:59] I mean where he wasn't winning challenges.

[00:51:01] He was always like pretty damn close, you know,

[00:51:05] and and yet people weren't necessarily talking

[00:51:08] about hey, like, you know, Charlie either wins

[00:51:10] or he comes down close, you know, he's also

[00:51:12] really likable guy and you're super smart,

[00:51:14] and you know, he's this he's this threat,

[00:51:17] you know, he can he could beast his way through

[00:51:19] the last two or three challenges which he had

[00:51:20] the capability of doing depending on what the

[00:51:22] challenges were right and we don't see people

[00:51:25] talking about that. Maybe there was a bit of

[00:51:27] chatter, but we don't really see people talking

[00:51:29] about him being this threat where he to us

[00:51:31] the audience he very obviously was so his his

[00:51:33] threat level management was superb and that's

[00:51:37] because of this, you know risk averse kind of

[00:51:39] approach this low level. I'll be your I'll be

[00:51:43] your your whatever your agent. I'll be I mean

[00:51:48] I'm on your side. I'm here to do what you need

[00:51:50] me to do which is a very powerful thing to do.

[00:51:52] So I never seem like I'm driving anything, you

[00:51:55] know, but I'm helping you get to your goal and

[00:51:58] that's important thing and he did that for a lot

[00:51:59] of people it seems you know, so where did

[00:52:03] you go wrong? It's potentially that for a little

[00:52:07] bit too long where people then don't ever see

[00:52:11] you doing that big thing and you've already

[00:52:14] actively helped give other people credit to

[00:52:16] that. So how you going to gain credit for it

[00:52:17] yourself unless you own that whole part of your

[00:52:20] game wholly and you can like a Mary Ann was

[00:52:23] able to like articulate exactly what it was and

[00:52:25] how and he we see his risk averse and I think

[00:52:29] the it came through in some of his answers and

[00:52:34] going into final travel before bit not even

[00:52:37] going to find trouble going into the the final

[00:52:39] travel where he's like a been if I asked you to

[00:52:43] would you take me, you know, where he's very

[00:52:46] very quickly showing his intent of I don't want

[00:52:48] to make fire. He probably would have smoked

[00:52:51] either Kenzie or Liz and even without seeing

[00:52:54] the outcome were pretty confident in his

[00:52:56] ability and he was confident in his ability

[00:52:58] that he could he just didn't want to take that

[00:53:00] risk and I think you know Hunter touches on it

[00:53:03] where he's like, you know, you wanted to get

[00:53:06] you know, it seemed a bit, you know, soft, you

[00:53:12] know, like I hope your intention was to win the

[00:53:14] game and I hope that answer doesn't hurt your

[00:53:16] chances yet because clearly there was a bit of

[00:53:18] a feeling and I think that was his message to

[00:53:19] Charlie to say like, you know, you've played a

[00:53:22] low-risk game people want to know where you

[00:53:24] kind of expose yourself a little bit and it

[00:53:26] sounds cancer counterintuitive. It's like well,

[00:53:28] why do you want to expose yourself in a game

[00:53:30] where people are getting snapped? You know,

[00:53:31] the best camouflage kind of winter, you know,

[00:53:33] you can't out what's not play if you don't

[00:53:36] outlast, you know, then you end up on the jury

[00:53:38] and not at the final tribal but you've got to

[00:53:39] end up at the final tribal with the case to make

[00:53:41] otherwise. So it's this double-edged sword and

[00:53:43] Charlie talks about a double-edged sword the

[00:53:45] entire like a lot of the season, you know about

[00:53:47] playing the middle. So I mean if he can

[00:53:50] criticize his game anywhere, maybe that's where

[00:53:52] it is, but this is like nitpicking because in

[00:53:55] many other iterations many other seasons he

[00:53:56] goes on and wins it. So then do you criticize

[00:53:59] it? No. Like I alluded to earlier, you know, does

[00:54:01] he does he clock some of the social things or

[00:54:06] does he clock Kenzie's actual threat level?

[00:54:09] Possibly not. I don't say he didn't underestimate

[00:54:12] anyone. I don't believe he underestimated anyone

[00:54:14] and that's why he stayed so in tune with the

[00:54:15] game. So credit to Kenzie for masking that

[00:54:21] so much that Charlie doesn't feel the need to

[00:54:24] say let us go and battle it out and fire, you

[00:54:27] know, not that it was would have been his choice

[00:54:30] but he could have actually gone to bed and said

[00:54:32] hey Ben, you know what? It's cool. You can put

[00:54:33] me in fire. You can rest easy make that decision,

[00:54:36] you know, I don't want to put you through that

[00:54:37] and put himself in a position where somebody

[00:54:39] can see the fire in his eyes. Whereas he kind

[00:54:42] of thought well, let me get to the end definitely

[00:54:45] and state my case rather than well, you know

[00:54:47] Kenzie's a viable viable threat. I need that

[00:54:49] little bit extra. So yeah, if we nitpick

[00:54:53] absolutely, but again that credits Kenzie's

[00:54:56] game again where you know, he didn't feel the

[00:54:59] need to do that. Yes, either of them. I feel

[00:55:02] like they were so close. It was like one

[00:55:05] foreseeable vote that said unforeseeable vote

[00:55:07] that separated them. So it's kind of like the

[00:55:09] mirror image that you would credit and criticize

[00:55:11] them for that like they both go to the end

[00:55:13] together. So like good on both of them for being

[00:55:16] so indispensable to the other person that they

[00:55:18] have to go forward with someone who was clearly

[00:55:19] going to be in either way a very difficult final

[00:55:23] tribal council opponent but then like bad on

[00:55:26] them but then having to go forward with them

[00:55:27] and putting themselves in that risk in that

[00:55:29] narrow pathway if that makes sense and I think

[00:55:30] it's interesting because Charlie had a lot of

[00:55:32] agency in a lot of control. He chose to go

[00:55:34] forward with Kenzie and Kenzie at times had

[00:55:37] less power. So you again, like I said this

[00:55:40] with Kenzie and Ben last week, but you credit

[00:55:43] you would you discredit Charlie more for like

[00:55:45] making the decisions to go forward or someone

[00:55:46] who's going to beat him or you just credit

[00:55:48] Kenzie for going forward to someone who nearly

[00:55:50] beat her but not having the kind of power and

[00:55:52] agency a point to change it because Charlie

[00:55:53] was more powerful especially through the end

[00:55:55] game. So I think it's fair for both of them.

[00:55:57] And I do think that they should have targeted

[00:55:58] Kenzie at seven. I was saying that at the time

[00:56:00] and said they go for Venus like that's how

[00:56:02] indispensable Kenzie makes herself where Charlie

[00:56:05] gets rid of someone he can beat and a lot of

[00:56:06] that is on Venus, but he's needing to Kenzie

[00:56:09] and she makes herself that pivotal to him and

[00:56:10] goes forward in that way where she should have

[00:56:12] been a target. She should have been a threat

[00:56:14] and instead he needs her and continues to work

[00:56:16] with her and she's less than that threat level.

[00:56:17] And I think that is the credit to her and they

[00:56:19] both kind of go forward in this kind of equal

[00:56:21] way because when I look at it with Charlie,

[00:56:23] it's so he played a kind of quiet game that he

[00:56:26] needed to explain to people and he's going to

[00:56:28] do it against Kenzie and Kenzie I feel like

[00:56:32] it's been spoken about as like the dichotomy

[00:56:33] of social versus strategic, but I don't feel

[00:56:36] like that's really right because Charlie is very

[00:56:38] social. He's more social than the other kind

[00:56:40] of losing finalists that we talk about in this

[00:56:42] mold like poverty and heroes villains, Aubrey,

[00:56:45] Cassidy. He like he's more socially strategic

[00:56:48] like in the way that he wields it and she's

[00:56:50] like a I think a pure social player, but if

[00:56:52] anything like he had a good social game.

[00:56:54] I think I think for me it's more, you know,

[00:56:57] loud versus quiet. I think is a big one. I think

[00:56:59] story versus strategy is a big one. But for me,

[00:57:02] it's and I don't want to say that Charlie is

[00:57:04] not a sparkly person, but I think compared to

[00:57:06] Kenzie it's sparkly versus non sparkly and I've

[00:57:08] spoken about like sparkly people Dino. You're

[00:57:10] one of the people I always reference when I

[00:57:11] talk about this is why I made you my winner

[00:57:13] pick for return to the outcast because I'm like

[00:57:15] I've met Dino sparkly person be afraid of sparkly

[00:57:18] people like I often whenever I meet a win. I'm

[00:57:20] like sparkly and that was Kenzie and I think

[00:57:22] you have a much better chance of winning if

[00:57:23] you're a sparkly person. I think it's an easier

[00:57:26] path to getting votes. I get the way you can

[00:57:27] have people eating out of the palm of your hand

[00:57:29] to find a tribal council. I think is very

[00:57:31] important. So with Charlie kind of going against

[00:57:33] that with Kenzie, there's a couple of ways that

[00:57:36] you can deal with it. The first is should he

[00:57:38] got rid of Kenzie? Should he have, you know,

[00:57:41] try to rely on someone like Venus as difficult

[00:57:43] as she made it with her sketchy advantage and

[00:57:45] like more didn't work with Kenzie because while

[00:57:47] she was an ally and someone who had made herself

[00:57:51] important to him. She was also a threat. So do

[00:57:53] you get rid of Kenzie or do you widen the pathway

[00:57:56] where he's spoken about the pathway of getting

[00:57:58] rid of Q and Maria at 6 and 5 because it

[00:58:00] assured him. Do you do that and get rid of Q

[00:58:03] at 7 which we were talking about and then have

[00:58:05] the opportunity maybe to get rid of Kenzie, but

[00:58:07] I think it would have been difficult because

[00:58:09] there was kind of a final three with Liz and

[00:58:11] Kenzie and Venus. He's putting himself on the

[00:58:12] bottom. He probably, you know, doesn't necessarily

[00:58:15] have that power of anything. He probably goes

[00:58:17] for it. So I think the pathway is difficult in

[00:58:19] ways that largely rely on other people like Venus,

[00:58:23] but that I think was a narrow pathway because

[00:58:26] it necessitated then going forward with Kenzie

[00:58:29] in a really pivotal way where you're probably

[00:58:30] sitting next to her. So then knowing you're

[00:58:32] going to be sitting next to a sparkly person, do

[00:58:33] you make your game louder? Do something like go

[00:58:36] into fire? Not against Kenzie because I feel

[00:58:38] like for both of Kenzie and Charlie they can

[00:58:42] either decide it at fire or at final tribal

[00:58:44] council have been willing to let them go to fire

[00:58:46] and they both seem to be more comfortable at

[00:58:47] final tribal council. So I think that's fine.

[00:58:49] But maybe you do say Liz doesn't seem that

[00:58:50] good at this. I'll use it as a resume boost.

[00:58:52] I'll take even that small risk. Maybe you do

[00:58:55] that. I don't think you have to do any of that.

[00:58:58] I'm just I think that it was very precarious.

[00:59:00] He was super super close but in that narrow

[00:59:02] pathway with other difficulties abounding and

[00:59:05] changing the other pathways like for example,

[00:59:08] yeah changing the pathway with Venus as an

[00:59:09] example. I think there's a lot of difficulties

[00:59:11] in that you have to go with this narrow pathway,

[00:59:13] but then you have to capitalize on it

[00:59:15] and he doesn't. So I think that is a valid loss

[00:59:17] as difficult as like the Maria vote was. It was

[00:59:21] narrow in ways for both of them and they both

[00:59:23] have to speak to that and for him especially

[00:59:25] he like even with Maria which is so unfortunate

[00:59:27] but it doesn't pan out for him and that feels

[00:59:31] earned as sad as it is. So I'd like to unpack

[00:59:36] there as well. But back to the Kenzie point

[00:59:40] in Enlak, you know Kenzie also took a very

[00:59:43] narrow pathway, you know very marginal but she

[00:59:45] came out on top. So then you've got to credit

[00:59:47] her and say like. She came out on top on a vote

[00:59:49] we never could have predicted. But then she did

[00:59:51] get like the other four votes very clearly.

[00:59:54] It wasn't the only vote that she received.

[00:59:56] Yeah, but without that vote she would have lost

[00:59:59] and that vote was so nonsensical. It's very complicated.

[01:00:05] On the other side, she could have picked up

[01:00:07] one or two of the others that surprised us

[01:00:09] that didn't go her way right? Like you say,

[01:00:12] I mean you've got to look at it holistically

[01:00:15] we can't just say in isolation because that

[01:00:16] can be true for any of the votes.

[01:00:18] Well it's not though because Maria is the one that makes the least sense.

[01:00:20] The others all make some sense.

[01:00:22] But I do, for me it's that yeah, like for Charlie

[01:00:27] on losing it on that one vote, you can't,

[01:00:31] it's like that was already very slim. So that's

[01:00:34] the criticism for me but that's also the criticism

[01:00:35] for her because it was so super slim for her.

[01:00:37] So it's the same thing. Like really they are just

[01:00:39] like two sides of the same coin on this because

[01:00:41] they were right there with each other.

[01:00:43] It's marginal and maybe half an hour before,

[01:00:46] half an hour later or one different question

[01:00:48] the result changes maybe but the outcome is

[01:00:51] the outcome right? But I was going to say

[01:00:53] you know credit to Kenzie again because

[01:00:55] you know, maybe she does back her although

[01:00:58] maybe she's by the same token as Charlie somewhat

[01:01:02] underestimated the person that could be

[01:01:05] potentially sitting next to in Charlie

[01:01:07] because he also did a great job of masking his game.

[01:01:11] You know same story, you know almost the same

[01:01:14] kind of floor here. So credit to him for masking

[01:01:17] his game to look like the opponent, the type

[01:01:21] of person you want to sit next to. She backs

[01:01:25] herself because I think you know being this

[01:01:27] hairdresser who is sociable, who is about making

[01:01:30] people feel comfortable, who is about energy

[01:01:32] and you've got to maintain energy throughout

[01:01:34] a long ass day that you're on your feet

[01:01:37] for and you might not always feel right.

[01:01:39] Yeah, and just you know make people feel

[01:01:41] comfortable good about themselves. That's

[01:01:43] literally your job. You're cutting people's

[01:01:44] hair, you're physically making them good about

[01:01:46] feel good about themselves verbally. You're

[01:01:47] giving those affirmations as well. You're

[01:01:50] taking on emotions that you know without even

[01:01:54] consent people are probably dumping their life

[01:01:56] stories and emotions on you where maybe some

[01:01:58] days you don't even have the emotional capacity

[01:02:00] to take that on. So her line of work is very

[01:02:03] social and this is not to say that Charlie's

[01:02:04] not social but those skill sets come to the

[01:02:07] fore here and throughout the season and then

[01:02:10] you know, I just kind of epitomize here where

[01:02:13] she's able to deliver what the jurors want

[01:02:15] to hear essentially, you know, she picks up

[01:02:18] on what what Q respects and that's why she

[01:02:20] gives such a phenomenal answer to a very real

[01:02:22] answer rather than going like well my hopes

[01:02:23] and dreams are to go. This is what I have

[01:02:26] done. This is fact-based. She has checked my

[01:02:28] scorecard and I'm actually going to use this

[01:02:31] for myself and you will respect that you know,

[01:02:32] like it's bold and it's great and that's

[01:02:34] what Garners respect and I think you know,

[01:02:36] that's that's to again a solid solid EQ and I

[01:02:42] think a little bit of that that life experience

[01:02:44] where she's been, you know, her life story is

[01:02:47] the same as well. I don't want to say her

[01:02:48] life story is the same but you know, she had

[01:02:50] to start working at a much younger age. She

[01:02:52] had to grow up and mature a lot quicker in

[01:02:54] her lifetime as mature as Charlie is it seems

[01:02:57] like her challenges her adulthood challenges

[01:03:01] started a little bit younger and I think all

[01:03:04] of that those life experiences came into play

[01:03:06] in this this whole game and in this final

[01:03:08] tribal council. So yeah, I mean going into the

[01:03:13] the points is going to make where we you know,

[01:03:16] some of the games surmises her her her life

[01:03:20] as well where it's like she had to start working

[01:03:22] at a younger age the same way they had a rough

[01:03:26] start with you know, not having Flint for 11

[01:03:28] days, you know, just lost after lost after lost

[01:03:31] but the reality is that actually builds resume

[01:03:33] because it is incredibly tough to to survive

[01:03:37] those votes, especially in this three tribe

[01:03:39] format where there's only six players to begin

[01:03:41] with it is so hot and very very little time to

[01:03:44] build relationships like we can't throw that

[01:03:47] away. I mean she was in the firing line way

[01:03:50] more than pretty much anybody else this entire

[01:03:52] season. There were more opportunities to vote

[01:03:54] Kenzie out than anybody else this season. She

[01:03:56] was at more she was vulnerable at more travel

[01:03:58] councils than anybody and that counts for a lot

[01:04:01] and again that speaks to the skill and again,

[01:04:03] like I say that that kind of experience from

[01:04:05] early on that travel council experience from

[01:04:07] early on as with her probably having to grow up

[01:04:11] much earlier on played its part throughout the

[01:04:14] game and through the final travel Council. So

[01:04:16] yeah, I've kind of gone off off off kilter.

[01:04:19] Yeah, but no I want you know, I want to I want

[01:04:21] to credit. I want to credit Kenzie more than

[01:04:26] say like did they both underestimate because

[01:04:29] they were there were a number of viable winners.

[01:04:31] Yeah, if you take Q to the end if you take Maria

[01:04:35] to the end if or not even take or you change one

[01:04:37] of the decisions and as a byproduct one of them

[01:04:39] gets the end not because you necessarily take

[01:04:42] them just because the course of history changes,

[01:04:43] you know, then we shouldn't criticize that

[01:04:45] because I mean could Q have won it could Liz

[01:04:48] have won it. I don't know. I mean we might be

[01:04:51] sitting having very different conversations of

[01:04:52] like well, why didn't you stick with Kenzie or

[01:04:54] stick with Charlie and go to the end that way,

[01:04:56] you know, it's we had very we had a lot of

[01:04:59] solid candidates who would have solid cases for

[01:05:01] the win whether we like them personally or not

[01:05:03] is maybe different but there were a lot of good

[01:05:05] candidates this season and that speaks to a great

[01:05:08] cost as well and and some crazy gameplay.

[01:05:12] Well, it reminds me of like the like the way

[01:05:14] I'm thinking about it like the meme where people

[01:05:16] are yelling at each other, you know, like there's

[01:05:18] like a there's like two men like but like out

[01:05:20] of like a boardroom yelling at each other and

[01:05:21] then I think yeah, like anyway get more heated

[01:05:23] that's how I feel about this because it's so

[01:05:25] complicated. It's like the first thing is like

[01:05:28] well, you know, she he shouldn't have had like

[01:05:30] such a narrow pathway like well, she shouldn't

[01:05:32] have had such a narrow pathway but then she

[01:05:34] makes good on it, but she only makes good on it

[01:05:36] because of Maria's vote which is nonsensical

[01:05:38] but she had other votes that she could have got

[01:05:39] and that's foreseeable like that's how I that's

[01:05:41] how it is in my mind like going back and forth

[01:05:42] where it's not even like hey, you both had narrow

[01:05:44] pathways and then someone like effectively made

[01:05:47] very good on it because it was due to this one

[01:05:50] very unforeseeable and really difficult to

[01:05:53] understand vote in Maria that is the differentiator.

[01:05:56] So it is tough and I feel like you have to speak

[01:05:57] about them in quite a similar way because the

[01:05:59] pathway took them to a pretty much an even place

[01:06:02] which is really really difficult in saying that

[01:06:05] for Kenzie as a winner.

[01:06:06] I do think like there were other votes that you

[01:06:08] know that and saying like she should have been

[01:06:10] scared of that a lot of what Charlie could bring

[01:06:12] that was risky and he should have been scared

[01:06:13] for her like you wouldn't have seen Maria, but

[01:06:15] you I would have thought Hunter as an example

[01:06:16] and I would have thought Liz so she was I think

[01:06:18] a big threat.

[01:06:19] She is a sparkly person.

[01:06:20] You should never let a sparkly person get that

[01:06:22] far. That's like my number one rule in Survivor

[01:06:24] and I do feel like she had, you know, she probably

[01:06:27] like averages out to me to like a pretty like

[01:06:29] medium tier winner because she has like a lot

[01:06:31] of great things and then gaps that she speaks

[01:06:34] to as well, you know, if she's not going to be

[01:06:35] like necessarily driving it strategically, but

[01:06:38] she has such a great social game that I think

[01:06:40] is pretty active and wielded at least in strategic

[01:06:43] groups if not driving it very I think you know,

[01:06:46] not that it's necessarily intentional, but it's

[01:06:48] like it's very present.

[01:06:51] It's very active.

[01:06:52] I think is probably a better word and she knows

[01:06:54] herself so well, I think that's the biggest thing

[01:06:56] and I think that's why she communicates so well

[01:06:57] and why she did so well at final tribal council.

[01:06:59] She's like very very good at selling that she

[01:07:01] never tries to be more than that and she has a

[01:07:02] really clear sense of self which I think plays

[01:07:04] that role really really well, but for me like

[01:07:08] if I look at like some of the low points of

[01:07:09] the game, it's not as much on not driving votes.

[01:07:12] It's more to me.

[01:07:13] I just like I want like more of like a considered

[01:07:16] clean game like the sloppiness for me are probably

[01:07:18] my biggest misses like she says herself like the

[01:07:21] Tiffin deck or going for Tiffany and then pulling

[01:07:23] back on that and they're getting blindsided and

[01:07:25] that like that to me is like easily the worst

[01:07:27] kind of couple of weeks of the game.

[01:07:28] Did you rebound as the story told us over and

[01:07:30] over but that I think is a big miss.

[01:07:32] I'm also interested to know what was happening

[01:07:35] pre-merge.

[01:07:35] I'd love to know if she was going at the random

[01:07:37] medivac because then I'd be much harsher on her

[01:07:38] win, but I don't I don't think she was and even

[01:07:42] if she was a cue kind of made it seem like the

[01:07:44] only way her name was brought up was like physically

[01:07:46] from a challenge perspective and considering

[01:07:48] they were losing like over and over and she had

[01:07:49] that additional challenge to most other people

[01:07:51] on the season.

[01:07:52] I think that is a very tough spot.

[01:07:53] So it's more for me just like yeah, she has

[01:07:56] kind of like allowed like kind of sloppy a game

[01:07:58] and that's a criticism but I think she gets

[01:08:00] a lot done.

[01:08:01] She's part of again like that end group that

[01:08:03] does blindside Q and Maria even Hunter even though

[01:08:06] I didn't feel that was a great move for her.

[01:08:07] He spoke to the fact that she was such a big

[01:08:09] part of that and how hard she had to work on

[01:08:11] Yanu and the journey and the struggle that she

[01:08:13] speak to speaks to so so well, I think all

[01:08:16] credit to her game.

[01:08:17] So I mean the way that I would rank like the

[01:08:20] new era winners would be the first Jam Jam

[01:08:23] Mary and then Kenzie Erica and Gabler in that

[01:08:25] order.

[01:08:26] So I think like a mid-tier winner who's more

[01:08:28] of like a narrative winner for me, but definitely

[01:08:31] like if you look up social game in the dictionary

[01:08:32] you find her and she's like aware of the fact

[01:08:35] of like what those pros and cons are of her

[01:08:36] game. I think yeah, I mean interestingly you

[01:08:40] put let's put those six winners in random seasons

[01:08:46] and simulate a hundred a hundred times right in

[01:08:50] with random costs who gets further in the game

[01:08:54] or often who stands a chance of winning most

[01:08:55] often out of those so you've ranked them in a

[01:08:59] particular way.

[01:08:59] You've ranked probably their wins in a winning

[01:09:01] game.

[01:09:01] Yeah.

[01:09:02] Yeah, they're winning game in a way but I think

[01:09:04] ranking them as players also like comes up

[01:09:05] slightly differently.

[01:09:06] You know, I agree D 100% for me like on top

[01:09:09] in on both metrics, you know winning game and

[01:09:13] a hundred game simulation just because I think

[01:09:14] she is that great and she's got this ruthlessness

[01:09:17] but like like ability like I think she's phenomenal.

[01:09:20] She really is does Marianne do as well as many

[01:09:27] times.

[01:09:27] I think there's a couple of instances where she

[01:09:31] struggles pre-mergedness, you know in different

[01:09:33] seasons where things might not go away where

[01:09:35] she might not be able to articulate as well against

[01:09:37] the people sitting next to the final trial

[01:09:38] counsel her winning game is phenomenal.

[01:09:41] So it's like it's interesting as a player and

[01:09:43] the on those metrics, I think you know Kenzie

[01:09:47] ranks slightly higher for me as a as a player

[01:09:51] who plays again.

[01:09:52] This game doesn't get paid a hundred times in

[01:09:54] those simulations.

[01:09:56] So I so in terms of this winning game, it doesn't

[01:09:59] rank as highly so like much much closer to what

[01:10:02] your ranking is but as a player, I think she's

[01:10:05] she's she's pretty solid.

[01:10:06] I think she does she does well in both seasons

[01:10:09] but at the end of the day, it really doesn't

[01:10:11] matter what you think.

[01:10:11] Yeah, she's like, I'm like, you did you know,

[01:10:16] like I could rank you at the bottom here and

[01:10:17] you're sitting with a million dollars and smiling

[01:10:18] so it's all good.

[01:10:20] Why I agree in terms of like with Kenzie, I

[01:10:23] think it's pretty consistent.

[01:10:24] Like, you know what she's going to do well and

[01:10:26] not well every time so she's always going to

[01:10:28] have that great social game that she will probably

[01:10:29] integrate very well, but she might lose a little

[01:10:31] bit of agency each time because she's not going

[01:10:33] to pull off as many moves herself.

[01:10:35] I think Maryam particularly there's probably like

[01:10:37] extremely high variance for her mostly but if

[01:10:39] you compare it to like Dee and Jam Jam who have

[01:10:40] had above both of them, I do feel like they

[01:10:42] have like also that like really great social game.

[01:10:44] I think all of these people are very sparkly

[01:10:45] people, but I think they have that element with

[01:10:48] like a little bit more intentionality and a way

[01:10:51] to wield it maybe quite a bit more from a Dee,

[01:10:53] a Jam Jam, especially a Dee, then a Jam Jam

[01:10:56] and even Maryam, but I do think Maryam has the

[01:10:57] high variance as well.

[01:10:58] So I think that like it does kind of fall that

[01:11:00] way for me as well.

[01:11:02] And then I think like Erica and Gabler don't

[01:11:05] bring as many of those skills and would probably

[01:11:07] struggle a bit more.

[01:11:08] So I probably would put it in a pretty similar

[01:11:09] place, but I feel like Maryam's was really hard

[01:11:11] to rank in that you have to rank this specific

[01:11:13] game because if someone who knows Maryam, believe

[01:11:14] me, you don't know how she's going to do 100

[01:11:16] times on anything like that's not just unforeseeable.

[01:11:19] So yeah for the others, I think it kind of does

[01:11:21] work. I wanted to like compare this as well.

[01:11:26] The feeling that I have on this just to kind

[01:11:27] of like sum up this and then maybe get into

[01:11:29] a little bit of like this specific final travel

[01:11:31] council answers, but the feeling that I had

[01:11:34] because I feel like everyone's saying Aubrey

[01:11:36] Michelle. It is like Michelle in the heavy-handed

[01:11:38] edit that but otherwise I don't see that.

[01:11:40] I actually do think Aubrey was like straight-up

[01:11:42] robbed. I think that jury was the weirdest

[01:11:45] jury we've ever had, you know, like I've said

[01:11:47] Sydney, Scott and Jason leading in some weird

[01:11:49] ways that I think was biases that Aubrey

[01:11:52] couldn't control that seemed more anti-Aubrey

[01:11:55] which again they're entitled to but like I'm

[01:11:56] going to criticize it. Debbie, I don't even

[01:11:58] remember why Debbie voted the way she did, but

[01:12:00] I remember that was crazy and that's like all

[01:12:01] the votes whereas like this is just like that

[01:12:03] one Maria vote and again as we're saying otherwise

[01:12:04] it's very very slim and we can talk about

[01:12:06] that both of them. This actually reminds me a

[01:12:09] lot more for me of like Sandra and poverty

[01:12:12] heroes versus villains where I would have

[01:12:14] voted for poverty and I would have voted for

[01:12:16] Charlie. Very different game Charlie and poverty.

[01:12:19] She had much higher highs and lower lows as

[01:12:21] we're talking about socially, but it's the same

[01:12:25] kind of thing where it's like I would have

[01:12:27] wanted that other thing but I also understand

[01:12:29] this very different type of win which is Sandra

[01:12:33] and Kenzie which is again more like purely

[01:12:34] social and Sandra and poverty is probably more

[01:12:37] actively like the duality of like social and

[01:12:39] strategy compared to this which I think again

[01:12:41] is a little bit different, but that's kind of

[01:12:43] how I'm taking it and it took me years as well

[01:12:46] to understand Sandra's win. I was to be fair

[01:12:48] a teenager, but like I think that I can see

[01:12:51] the little flaws in what poverty did

[01:12:55] and how she like how the jury would really

[01:12:59] like what Sandra was doing and how poverty

[01:13:01] missed parts of that and how she was being

[01:13:02] perceived as like attached to Russell and it

[01:13:04] took me a while to understand that and like

[01:13:05] that's how that came across and I think for

[01:13:07] Charlie there are parts of that in the narrowness

[01:13:09] of the pathway and underestimating Kenzie

[01:13:11] that made it tricky and then he falls to the

[01:13:13] trickiness and the weird vote. So that's where

[01:13:16] I kind of feel. Are we indirectly comparing

[01:13:19] Ben to Russell?

[01:13:22] I think maybe two might have been. I'm kidding.

[01:13:27] Yeah, no, it really follows along all to the

[01:13:28] final three. So yeah, Ben and Russell two peas

[01:13:33] in a pod, right?

[01:13:37] Well, that's I mean, yeah, and that's how I

[01:13:39] and that's and that's how I made sense of it.

[01:13:40] I'm like, you know what I accept and it's not

[01:13:41] that I have to accept it as I said, I think

[01:13:43] Kenzie's a better narrative winner, but

[01:13:47] that's how I view it and that's kind of like

[01:13:48] the same similar feelings that I have in those

[01:13:51] in those ways and like yeah, so in terms of

[01:13:54] final tribal council was did anything like

[01:13:56] who do you think? Do you think any and this

[01:13:58] is gonna be a hard one to ask you because I

[01:13:59] know that you won't want to criticize one of

[01:14:01] them, but do you feel like Charlie or Kenzie

[01:14:02] did better because I thought they were both great.

[01:14:05] They're both good, but I would definitely say

[01:14:10] there's probably factors that affect this or

[01:14:13] impact this but Kenzie seemed to articulate

[01:14:18] a little bit better again in the segments

[01:14:19] we saw. I mean bear in mind. This is you know

[01:14:21] this and people who listen to this podcast

[01:14:23] would absolutely know this so not to patronize

[01:14:27] here, but it's a three three hour up to three

[01:14:30] hour long tribal council. So we see snippets

[01:14:34] of it. So we don't know how well everything

[01:14:35] was articulated. We don't see like the strategic

[01:14:38] chat that might favor Charlie's game for example

[01:14:42] or right. So we see that very concise version

[01:14:46] but in what we saw it does seem like Kenzie

[01:14:48] gave more solid answers more of the time, you

[01:14:52] know, and it also seems like as we've touched

[01:14:56] on before where Maria derailed some of Charlie's

[01:15:03] answers, you know Tiff advocated for Kenzie

[01:15:07] as well which probably impacted how articulate

[01:15:11] one could be because you kind of get rather

[01:15:13] Kenzie was actually put off by

[01:15:15] you know a cue intervention there and miss

[01:15:18] recollecting the Tim vote but she composed

[01:15:22] herself pretty well and said like, okay. Well

[01:15:24] I say composed herself pretty well. I thought

[01:15:25] she was making a misstep when she was like you

[01:15:27] see I couldn't work with this and then she takes

[01:15:28] a moment to continue and I was like well

[01:15:31] Kenzie don't go there now, don't go there now.

[01:15:34] But I think overall she did deliver a better

[01:15:38] final tribal and I think what it comes down

[01:15:40] to is a sense of confidence as well. And I

[01:15:42] think Charlie's addressed this way. I think

[01:15:44] Charlie he's got this humility about him and it

[01:15:48] came off as maybe a little bit too soft, right?

[01:15:52] Whereas final tribal he actually needed to step

[01:15:54] up and step into the confidence and go right guys,

[01:15:56] you know, I am this I am the soft guy but I

[01:16:00] need you to hear me. This was like, I mean, I'm

[01:16:02] going to speak my game up now and I think for

[01:16:04] his personality type and I can relate to it.

[01:16:07] It's very hard to sometimes speak yourself up

[01:16:09] because you don't want to be seen as arrogant.

[01:16:11] You don't want to make anyone else feel inadequate.

[01:16:13] You want to be heard without disrespecting anybody

[01:16:15] else and it's like fine balance and it was probably

[01:16:19] tough for him but it just seemed like maybe you

[01:16:22] call it the sparkliness. Kenzie delivered with

[01:16:24] this sense of confidence.

[01:16:28] It was a bit more succinct and believable and

[01:16:31] Charlie, although gave really great answers and

[01:16:33] I think was able to substantiate a lot of the

[01:16:35] stuff intellectually probably didn't come across

[01:16:38] as assertive, believable, succinct.

[01:16:43] Yeah, I think again, this is micro stuff here.

[01:16:48] Maria vote goes the other way, the exact same

[01:16:50] tribal council and Maria vote goes the other way

[01:16:51] and Ben votes Charlie. Do we then say that Charlie

[01:16:54] had a better final tribal council?

[01:16:55] I don't know.

[01:16:56] It's like are we, yeah, am I swayed by the outcome

[01:17:00] possibly but it would seem that overall edit

[01:17:04] and just in the sheer result on the things that

[01:17:06] we don't see that Kenzie probably had the better

[01:17:09] final tribal council and did win it there.

[01:17:12] I feel like it was not that it was equal.

[01:17:14] It was just that it was so different.

[01:17:15] They had such different games to sell where for

[01:17:18] Kenzie, it's going to be broader.

[01:17:19] It's going to be more vague because she's not

[01:17:21] speaking to like individual moves.

[01:17:22] She's just trying to like explain herself.

[01:17:24] Like you can kind of understand Charlie as a

[01:17:26] player. He's like quiet but you know making these

[01:17:29] moves. So he has to kind of speak to each move

[01:17:31] give like that kind of credit whereas she needs

[01:17:32] to like explain the intentionality and define

[01:17:36] her whole character type more than she's going

[01:17:38] through like move by move.

[01:17:39] I think that she just has to have a good sense

[01:17:42] of self-awareness know like where she made mistakes

[01:17:44] know how she bounced back from that be able to

[01:17:46] sell the story and she does all of that really

[01:17:47] really well and that's a character that they can

[01:17:49] vote for whereas with Charlie like I think it's

[01:17:52] would you know make okay, you're the strategic

[01:17:53] person but prove that you were because you were

[01:17:55] quiet. So I feel like he did parts of that.

[01:17:57] I think I think Charlie did really well to be

[01:17:59] honest in having to I think they both did great.

[01:18:01] That's why I was having so much fun with this

[01:18:03] like heated matchup, but I think for Charlie

[01:18:05] it was better. I think that it was just very

[01:18:06] different for Charlie, you know, he has to explain

[01:18:11] each move and I think he did it so well and

[01:18:12] obviously more than even we saw but like to

[01:18:14] lay out subtle strategy that even we like I

[01:18:16] spoken about on the podcast. That was cool for

[01:18:18] me. I'm like, yes, though. He's a pathway at

[01:18:19] seven or six like I could yeah, I like we spoke

[01:18:21] about that, you know, like how it got him exactly

[01:18:23] to fall like he was communicating that again

[01:18:25] for me the juror I would love every single part

[01:18:27] of that. So I think it's so well with that.

[01:18:29] I think he answered very well on the differentiator

[01:18:33] between him and Maria because obviously he

[01:18:34] definitively beat Maria actually multiple times

[01:18:37] and taking out few against her and then Maria

[01:18:39] herself. So I really like how he spoke about

[01:18:41] that. I like how he spoke about fire here and

[01:18:45] at the final four where he's like, oh Ben and

[01:18:47] I'll my social game with me is bigger than fire

[01:18:51] and you know, he said here he said that as well

[01:18:53] and it seems like Hunter was the main person

[01:18:55] pushing fire and Hunter does vote for Charlie

[01:18:57] mainly because how he sees he articulated those

[01:18:59] last couple of rounds. So that actually seemed

[01:19:00] to really pull Hunter over on why did you go

[01:19:03] the way it wasn't just about being necessarily

[01:19:05] risk averse which is to be fair say like it's

[01:19:08] good. It's good to be like well-managed but like

[01:19:10] people see that as as a worse thing where you're

[01:19:13] not as brave. Why aren't you like putting yourself

[01:19:15] out there and he explained kind of the reasoning

[01:19:17] behind it and like the other attributes that it

[01:19:19] showed and it seemed to bring Hunter over. So

[01:19:21] I think that was a really good answer from him.

[01:19:24] Yeah, and I like that you brought up the final

[01:19:26] four thing. I loved you know, Charlie was super

[01:19:30] calculated and I believe this like your final

[01:19:32] tribal Council pitch begins at tribal councils

[01:19:37] well before final tribal Council, right? I think

[01:19:40] Leroux even mentioned it to me after after our

[01:19:42] season. He was like, yeah, your final tribal

[01:19:44] Council's pitch started at final five and I was

[01:19:47] like jeez. Okay. I was aware of like making a case

[01:19:50] but maybe not to that degree but Charlie as well

[01:19:53] very intentional when you know, he knows the

[01:19:55] impact of fire. He knows the perception of this

[01:19:57] fire. He doesn't believe that that should be a

[01:19:59] metric us as fans. I think most people are like

[01:20:03] this whole idea that you have to put yourself

[01:20:05] into fire to now when the game is absolute BS.

[01:20:07] I mean it really is silly. How can that be the

[01:20:10] one thing that diminishes an entire game and

[01:20:14] but he's he's aware of that from a fan perspective

[01:20:16] from a perception perspective and he addresses

[01:20:18] that when he's like it's because of my relationship

[01:20:20] with Ben that I am now being taken to the end.

[01:20:23] It's not because of anything else and I'm like,

[01:20:25] I love that and I thought there was excellent

[01:20:27] on his part. So I mean he's so calculated and

[01:20:30] considered and he delivered it in a way that

[01:20:34] wasn't like hey, you see everybody here. This is

[01:20:37] why you know, it wasn't it wasn't brash. It wasn't

[01:20:39] abrasive. It wasn't like look at me. It was it

[01:20:42] was it was intentionally enough to be heard but

[01:20:46] such as enough to not be like forceful or trying

[01:20:48] too hard, you know, so huge credit there. So I

[01:20:52] mean overall again like luck has been the theme

[01:20:54] of this podcast like to differentiate and to

[01:20:56] nitpick and to this and that I mean it comes down

[01:20:59] to Kenzie and Charlie being so closely matched

[01:21:03] and they basically tied but they didn't because

[01:21:05] she won but again, it's like the yelling at each

[01:21:06] other.

[01:21:06] But you want but then she should have been so

[01:21:10] close at the one vote Matt like then and but

[01:21:12] which could she should she have been so close

[01:21:14] with that one right and then that's the yelling

[01:21:15] at you know, the meme I'm talking about because

[01:21:17] that's that's in my brain. That's my brain.

[01:21:21] And that's kind of what goes on for players

[01:21:23] like postgame as well. It's like I should have

[01:21:25] done this differently, but if you did this

[01:21:26] differently this happens and then you just do

[01:21:28] that butterfly thing and you go down the could

[01:21:31] have should have would have cycle and then this

[01:21:33] could have should have would have cycle comes to

[01:21:35] this like final point this final moment and then

[01:21:37] you start that cycle again and you just keep

[01:21:39] starting that that same argument and that start

[01:21:41] like circular reasoning comes back to this

[01:21:43] point again and you just like drive yourself

[01:21:45] nuts and I feel like this is what's what's

[01:21:47] happening here as well as we just drive us off

[01:21:49] nuts. We come to the same point which is like

[01:21:50] but Kenzie won.

[01:21:51] Yeah, but only because but she wins but she wins

[01:21:57] so red like that vote is a red light, but if

[01:21:59] she was anyway, that's it. Does everyone in my

[01:22:01] brain mean is everyone understand where my

[01:22:04] so there's not enough of a difference.

[01:22:06] This is why you've had a migraine for three days

[01:22:08] and I'm all yeah, I've had a blow up before that

[01:22:10] even but you know what I dreamt about and I

[01:22:11] dreamt this exact thing happened because of Anu

[01:22:14] was there but I actually did dream about it

[01:22:15] waking up because I knew that the family was going to win

[01:22:18] and I have had a migraine all of that time, but

[01:22:20] I mean, it's just it's so tough to because the

[01:22:24] differentiator is so nonsensical in Maria.

[01:22:26] It's so so tough and I feel like I just have

[01:22:28] to give them similar credits and criticisms,

[01:22:31] but I will say as much as I said it was like

[01:22:33] yet character versus maybe game moves or resume.

[01:22:37] I think it is it is largely story versus resume

[01:22:40] and like foot for Charlie like his big consistent

[01:22:42] theme was options.

[01:22:44] I like that and I think like again, like a lot

[01:22:47] of the game focus people will like that, you

[01:22:49] know, like she like he does win Hunter over

[01:22:53] and I feel like that was such it was such a big

[01:22:55] like he was so aware of the fact that there was

[01:22:56] such a big part of his game.

[01:22:57] I feel like it's seven especially in being able

[01:22:59] to take out Venus that way but keep everyone on

[01:23:01] side and like keep the smoke screen going at

[01:23:03] six even bringing Maria in which we can we can

[01:23:06] talk about a little bit so options were so big

[01:23:07] but that's not a narrative but it is interesting

[01:23:09] to hit strategic game, which is what he is

[01:23:11] basing things on and then for Kenzie, you know,

[01:23:17] she has so much of the story and another thing

[01:23:19] that Kenzie has and I don't want to discredit

[01:23:20] her but like as we've said having Tiffany go

[01:23:23] to bat for her I think is so major like when

[01:23:27] Hunter cuts down Charlie to be like Kenzie's

[01:23:29] want to help blindside me.

[01:23:31] We heard an exit press that Charlie did that

[01:23:33] for Tiffany, but Tiffany's not going to give

[01:23:35] that to Charlie because Tiffany's like already

[01:23:37] undercutting him on the Taylor Swift coach

[01:23:38] and she's there with an agenda as she should

[01:23:39] be as a credit to Kenzie's game, but I think

[01:23:42] that was a really really big thing for Kenzie.

[01:23:44] So then the meme the brain meme goes again

[01:23:46] and it says like, you know, what like how

[01:23:49] can you like?

[01:23:50] Well, she won so she must have the better

[01:23:52] but but but but he also pulled over votes,

[01:23:55] but she pulled over for it's like they both

[01:23:57] pulled over votes with how they did.

[01:23:58] So they must have both done and even though

[01:24:00] Maria didn't know she didn't put up her hand

[01:24:03] when Jeff asked that but I think they probably

[01:24:05] pulled over.

[01:24:05] It seems like a pretty equal number of votes.

[01:24:08] So they both did really well.

[01:24:10] They're both you know, the plant split in

[01:24:13] basically, but they did but it was Maria's

[01:24:14] vote that anyway, the brain we can't split

[01:24:17] them but there was split anyway and but by

[01:24:19] something random anyway, whatever something

[01:24:21] we can't understand that is the only certain

[01:24:24] we're trying to dissect this and we've got

[01:24:26] this and even I mean as much as you know,

[01:24:29] I've actively said that you know, my hopes

[01:24:31] were on on Charlie Pat's pick the one and

[01:24:35] you're actively supporting Charlie and hoping

[01:24:37] for the one for Charlie as well in based

[01:24:39] on our metrics against you know, I can

[01:24:44] yeah.

[01:24:45] Yeah, and edit I can definitely feel the

[01:24:48] jurors pains like we're tippin was like cut

[01:24:50] up about and still going like, you know,

[01:24:53] and and trying to figure out like that split

[01:24:57] that's how close it was for the jurors as

[01:24:59] well. So not just not just this random Maria

[01:25:01] voters. We talk about it like being that

[01:25:04] close like even for individual jurors. It

[01:25:07] seems like a lot of them could have gone

[01:25:10] either way very genuine and a lot of jurors

[01:25:12] sometimes I believe a lot of jurors got

[01:25:14] there go like yes, I've kept an open mind

[01:25:15] and I want to go into this and listen, but

[01:25:17] they had their mind made up for a long time

[01:25:18] and they just look for reasons to validate

[01:25:20] their vote, right? I do believe that right

[01:25:25] for in some cases as a general thing, but

[01:25:29] I do believe most of these people when they

[01:25:31] say, you know, we were on the fence. I see

[01:25:34] it in Tevin's face like dude is hella confused

[01:25:38] like he wants to give them both the money.

[01:25:39] I don't think it's a thing of like on I'm

[01:25:41] sitting here and I'm you know, he's taking

[01:25:43] this very seriously because he believes like

[01:25:44] one of them they both probably like in his

[01:25:46] mind deserve this one and he doesn't know

[01:25:48] who to vote for and he knows how close it

[01:25:50] is and how decisive his vote is going to be

[01:25:52] and so he's taking it very seriously and

[01:25:53] that's why I so cut up about it in the

[01:25:54] moment. So as much as we're sitting here

[01:25:57] going the cyclical little thing they had

[01:25:59] to make a decision at that point while

[01:26:01] their brain memes are going on and yeah,

[01:26:04] I mean it just shows how much closer the

[01:26:06] season was and we haven't seen such a such

[01:26:08] a genuinely close season since like actual

[01:26:11] probably Dom Wendell split, you know,

[01:26:14] genuinely that we would have been the

[01:26:17] tie vote but yeah, this 5-3 felt a lot

[01:26:19] closer than then the Austin right? Yeah,

[01:26:22] exactly. It really did and I definitely

[01:26:23] think that their brain memes would have

[01:26:24] been in a lot of pain and I can see it

[01:26:26] for someone like, you know, yeah like

[01:26:27] Tevin and Soda who spoke to it so well.

[01:26:30] I really like have I said this on this

[01:26:32] podcast how much I didn't like the 30

[01:26:33] second thing as much as I loved I loved

[01:26:35] her observations because they were correct

[01:26:37] and she's like I've been here the longer

[01:26:39] so I can observe which was great. She had

[01:26:41] these great observations, but why the 30

[01:26:43] seconds firstly as a long-winded person

[01:26:45] it felt personal. And secondly, yeah and

[01:26:48] also why just why like just be like give

[01:26:50] me the elevator pitch but I think cutting

[01:26:52] them off like Ben seemed to suffer the

[01:26:53] most for it when he didn't get to like

[01:26:54] talk about how like emotional game they

[01:26:56] went into social they went into strategic.

[01:26:58] I mean they can still talk later they

[01:26:59] could they have closing statements they

[01:27:00] could put it in there but it just felt

[01:27:02] like it's yeah it felt overly pressurized

[01:27:04] and already it pressurized environment

[01:27:05] where I would like for you guys as jurors

[01:27:07] and for me I want to hear the answer

[01:27:08] like these are great questions. Let me

[01:27:09] cook, you know, so I didn't like that but

[01:27:12] I did think her question was great. I

[01:27:14] feel like every first juror should do

[01:27:16] that especially if they have good reads

[01:27:17] like here's how I view all of you from

[01:27:19] watching the game. And she said

[01:27:21] prove me right or prove me wrong and I

[01:27:23] really liked that because it did show

[01:27:24] like for someone like Charlie he could

[01:27:27] really differentiate and that was great

[01:27:28] and then for someone like Kenzie she

[01:27:30] would have and he and I think he did it

[01:27:31] really well I don't think he lost

[01:27:32] anything from that I think he was right.

[01:27:33] If Kenzie had tried to change that

[01:27:37] perception incorrectly it would have

[01:27:38] looked like she had bad self-awareness

[01:27:40] so owning it was right so it's first

[01:27:41] choosing do you actually want to lean

[01:27:43] into this negative thing but make it a

[01:27:44] positive or you want to fully contradict

[01:27:45] the juror and can you do that well? So I

[01:27:48] thought that was a great question just

[01:27:49] give him a minute or two maybe.

[01:27:50] A hundred percent yeah so there is this

[01:27:54] like unfair dynamic well let's not call

[01:27:57] it unfair it's not unfair it's the

[01:27:58] nature of the game but. It's unfair but we love that

[01:28:02] the game is unfair. The contradiction is the beauty of the game but it's mad.

[01:28:05] There is this power dynamic that isn't

[01:28:09] in balance let's say you know it sits

[01:28:11] with the jury right as it should for

[01:28:13] this game and you know Soda joins the

[01:28:15] jury and then Soda has you know a

[01:28:21] couple of days to welcome somebody new

[01:28:24] get their insights make sense of her own

[01:28:26] game become a piece of such thing get

[01:28:29] new insights from this next person

[01:28:30] battle it out probably you know learn a

[01:28:33] little bit more about the game then the

[01:28:34] next person joins in the next person

[01:28:35] joins in the next person joins and now

[01:28:37] you're getting all these other

[01:28:38] perceptions of the game aside from yours

[01:28:39] in a let's call it a safe space that

[01:28:41] doesn't impact with you go home or not

[01:28:43] so it's a bit more open like oh yeah but

[01:28:44] I was actually doing this oh no but I

[01:28:45] actually did this oh this person

[01:28:46] actually did that and you're starting to

[01:28:48] add more pieces to this puzzle where you

[01:28:51] had five pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle

[01:28:53] you're now getting another five pieces

[01:28:54] another five pieces another five pieces

[01:28:56] and nobody in this game nobody ever in

[01:28:58] no matter how long they sat together

[01:29:00] for after the game would ever make that

[01:29:03] thousand piece puzzle up right you'd

[01:29:05] only ever have like maybe 300 of the

[01:29:06] thousand pieces right but but she's

[01:29:10] aware of that and she's gone like right

[01:29:12] I haven't actually heard that my

[01:29:14] perception of you now is XYZ here's your

[01:29:17] opportunity to prove it right or wrong

[01:29:18] like you I mean I'm just repeating what

[01:29:20] you said but it's so valuable and so

[01:29:22] powerful and I really think it gives the

[01:29:24] the player a fair chance at winning you

[01:29:26] over because the jurors now offering it

[01:29:28] up and going like well this is how I see

[01:29:30] you they're not they're not leaving it

[01:29:31] up to you to guess to try and feel you

[01:29:33] out and you know give you an answer

[01:29:35] that satisfies you and you kind of in

[01:29:37] this position of power and you're making

[01:29:39] it difficult for them it's like she's

[01:29:41] making it as easy for them as possible

[01:29:43] so that it makes her life as easy

[01:29:45] possible to decide where to put a vote

[01:29:47] and I really value that that that

[01:29:50] question how she worded it and and like

[01:29:51] you say the 30 seconds is BS I wouldn't

[01:29:53] even get through my first sorry in 30

[01:29:55] seconds and I think I mean I say a lot

[01:29:58] and talk fast and for me what was worse

[01:30:03] is maybe like Tiff's like I'm going to

[01:30:05] keep the 30 seconds okay you're done

[01:30:07] I'm like it's so it's almost like it's

[01:30:11] a little cruel it's a little it's a

[01:30:14] little cruel and it's a little what's

[01:30:16] the word I'm looking for what it's like

[01:30:19] this I don't say power trippy but it

[01:30:22] just reassure firms that there's a

[01:30:23] dynamic it's like you're here you are

[01:30:29] the you're in the firing line not me

[01:30:32] you're you will dance when I say you

[01:30:34] will dance and not for another second

[01:30:36] outside of that kind of thing you know

[01:30:37] yeah like a hundred percent okay but

[01:30:40] not too much dancing I stop I just I

[01:30:44] just don't see what a game for them as

[01:30:46] jurors other than to just make them make

[01:30:49] feel more uncomfortable and pressurize

[01:30:50] which like I guess if you want to again

[01:30:51] it's your right as a juror but does that

[01:30:53] make it good behavior so I feel like

[01:30:56] as jurors instead like this is a great

[01:30:58] question like answer it so you can make

[01:30:59] an informed decision I didn't see what

[01:31:01] it added I think it's attracted but I

[01:31:02] thought that the questions were really

[01:31:04] great another thing that I really like

[01:31:06] to find a tribal council was as a

[01:31:07] smokescreen split truth which I am

[01:31:09] continuing on it for a third week in a

[01:31:11] row because they keep talking about Ben's

[01:31:12] vote right what was the split there

[01:31:14] Charlie has confirmed there was one

[01:31:16] split vote and I'm really trust Charlie

[01:31:18] so that was cues vote so it feels like

[01:31:20] but this is why it's important because

[01:31:21] Q says to Kenzie you would have gone

[01:31:23] home if Venus played an idol that's

[01:31:25] important for which you have but I mean

[01:31:27] not because it wasn't a proper split

[01:31:29] that's why it matters it will continue

[01:31:31] to matter should we do an offseason

[01:31:32] podcast just deep diving just as one

[01:31:34] vote maybe but I thought that was really

[01:31:36] because she even says he's like you

[01:31:38] would have gone home and she says maybe

[01:31:39] and I feel like no you wouldn't have

[01:31:40] Kenzie because on a revote there's no

[01:31:41] way they're voting Kenzie out and there

[01:31:43] was only meant to be one vote on Kenzie

[01:31:45] it was meant to be Q's vote instead it

[01:31:46] was Ben's vote and on the 1-1 revote if

[01:31:49] Venus had played her idol it's pretty

[01:31:50] clear that Q would have gone home

[01:31:51] smokescreen split truther do you know

[01:31:54] you have questions?

[01:31:56] There was a lot.

[01:32:00] There's a smokescreen split.

[01:32:03] Yeah yeah yeah yeah two weeks ago

[01:32:05] two weeks ago Ben voted wrong if you

[01:32:08] haven't heard over and over again

[01:32:10] no no I do remember very very much so

[01:32:12] remember Ben voting wrong that

[01:32:15] yeah there was one vote from the Alliance

[01:32:17] which we thought was meant to be Ben

[01:32:18] but then it was apparently meant to be Q

[01:32:20] but it was accidentally Ben and on that

[01:32:21] one vote the split would have led to a

[01:32:23] 1-1 revote and Q was saying that

[01:32:25] Kenzie would have gone home I've always

[01:32:26] felt she never would I think Q would

[01:32:28] have gone home on the revote I think it

[01:32:29] wasn't a true and proper split it was

[01:32:30] just a placate Q so and I've been

[01:32:33] talking about it now for two full weeks

[01:32:35] so more than two weeks.

[01:32:37] I've been trying to catch up I've been

[01:32:38] playing catch-up yes so

[01:32:42] I hate myself.

[01:32:43] No no no I think I think that

[01:32:45] the brain memes make them stop

[01:32:50] and this is some of the chaos that people

[01:32:51] have to deal with in real time man and

[01:32:53] so to the to the editors credit of just

[01:32:56] throwing in that Kenzie but maybe you

[01:32:59] know maybe yeah exactly yes I was like

[01:33:03] yes Kenzie.

[01:33:03] It's such a solid it's such a solid

[01:33:05] answer of like well I'm not gonna sit

[01:33:08] here and say actually Q you're an idiot

[01:33:09] I've done that once yeah this final

[01:33:12] time but I'm not gonna do it again

[01:33:13] if it's actually you you have no idea

[01:33:15] yeah she should have been like Q have

[01:33:18] you ever heard of a smokescreen split

[01:33:19] because that was what was happening and

[01:33:20] you'd be like what was what now?

[01:33:21] But and and like you say like you say

[01:33:24] that Kenzie name was never meant to be

[01:33:26] up there in the first place so that

[01:33:27] they were not voting out Kenzie over Q

[01:33:29] and it was only meant to be a 1-1.

[01:33:30] It's impossible to think that Kenzie

[01:33:31] was going home there.

[01:33:32] Anyway, it's been solved.

[01:33:34] It's been it's been sorted but it's

[01:33:37] interesting that you say because about

[01:33:38] Q let's talk about Ben a little bit

[01:33:40] because I don't want to like completely

[01:33:42] shun him like they kind of did it final

[01:33:43] tribal council but he also was really

[01:33:45] combative with Q and Maria I kind of

[01:33:47] like I thought it was funny he wasn't

[01:33:48] even trying to get their votes it was

[01:33:49] like yeah I had to I was stuck with Q

[01:33:51] and Maria I'm like these people he was

[01:33:54] like he was like kind of like he was

[01:33:55] like it was like hospitality and the

[01:33:57] customer always being right.

[01:33:58] He was kind of like maybe a waiter

[01:34:00] that's on their last day on the job.

[01:34:01] So he just doesn't care.

[01:34:02] So he just will insult you and I love

[01:34:04] then he took the power back.

[01:34:05] I mean, he wasn't going to win but he

[01:34:07] said what he wanted and I feel like

[01:34:08] that that was good enough for him.

[01:34:11] I mean, he says it and he lives it.

[01:34:14] He's unapologetically himself,

[01:34:16] right? And we love him for it.

[01:34:19] No, he's man Ben's inclusion in the

[01:34:21] season. I think is is brilliant and

[01:34:25] a character like Ben is so important to

[01:34:27] a season like this.

[01:34:28] Yes. Okay, fine.

[01:34:29] Does he stand a reasonable shot at that

[01:34:32] final three of winning the game?

[01:34:33] Not necessarily.

[01:34:34] I think the edit didn't give him any

[01:34:37] credit for that and I think the jurors

[01:34:38] didn't give him too much credit and

[01:34:41] yeah, it doesn't seem like he had a

[01:34:44] chance of winning it.

[01:34:45] I mean you've you once said Gable had

[01:34:46] 0% chance of winning.

[01:34:48] I think Ben had more chance of winning

[01:34:50] than Gable which then by stats means

[01:34:54] that he had actually had a good chance

[01:34:55] of winning but I gave him 1% actually.

[01:34:57] So automatically had more chance of

[01:35:02] winning than an actual winner of the

[01:35:03] season. No.

[01:35:04] Yeah, well everyone did. 0 was the lowest you can go.

[01:35:06] Yeah.

[01:35:08] No, I think I think his inclusion in

[01:35:11] the season is so important.

[01:35:12] He's such a refreshingly just selfless

[01:35:18] human being like here he was sitting

[01:35:19] with the weight of a decision that he

[01:35:22] was genuinely cut up about because he

[01:35:24] was just putting the humans first and

[01:35:25] I think in his mind because money as

[01:35:28] resources is more scarce to him in the

[01:35:31] real world as he eludes.

[01:35:32] He's like, I'm probably the most broke

[01:35:33] here, you know, because he's out there

[01:35:35] trying to live his childhood dreams,

[01:35:37] which nobody should ever be like

[01:35:38] suffer for, you know, struggle for, you

[01:35:44] know, he's busy thinking about who needs

[01:35:46] it more, you know, he's like well and

[01:35:49] there's a misread on this aside.

[01:35:50] She's going like I'm a multi-millionaire

[01:35:52] nobody's going to give me the money

[01:35:53] and he's going like yeah, but who needs

[01:35:54] it more, you know, like, you know,

[01:35:55] Kenzie he's obviously going through

[01:35:56] the motions of Kenzie's going to start

[01:35:57] a family Charlie's, you know, going to

[01:36:00] finish law and do some epic things,

[01:36:01] you know, and he's probably thinking

[01:36:03] of the first second third prize money.

[01:36:05] He's not just thinking about the

[01:36:05] million dollars.

[01:36:06] He's thinking about that.

[01:36:07] He's literally thinking about the

[01:36:08] extra ten or twenty thousand dollars

[01:36:10] that people get because to him that

[01:36:12] extra ten or twenty thousand dollars

[01:36:13] is life-changing money in itself.

[01:36:15] Fourth to second is 40k.

[01:36:18] I think I don't know what it is now,

[01:36:20] but like hundred percent 60k, right?

[01:36:22] So well, that's what it was not be

[01:36:24] anymore. But yeah, so he's such a

[01:36:27] considerate human being and he's put

[01:36:31] like his game.

[01:36:32] I think he's accepted.

[01:36:34] He was aware enough to know that his

[01:36:35] chances were like relatively slim and

[01:36:37] even if they weren't just by his nature

[01:36:39] and his value set.

[01:36:40] He was like I want to put the people

[01:36:41] here that you know mean the most to

[01:36:42] me and who've been the kindest to me

[01:36:45] and who also need this the most almost

[01:36:47] the same metric is, you know, Q's

[01:36:48] question all of a sudden where it's

[01:36:50] like well who needs the money more

[01:36:51] who's going to do more with it, you

[01:36:52] know, and it's that like level of

[01:36:54] selflessness.

[01:36:55] That's like so endearing and yeah, I

[01:36:58] just think as a human being this guy

[01:37:00] is like phenomenal and his he brought

[01:37:05] a sense of fun, you know, like you

[01:37:06] brought a sense of fun in other ways

[01:37:09] been brought this like really soft

[01:37:10] natured childlike energy to this

[01:37:14] this cost that that takes off, you

[01:37:16] know for like what can sometimes feel

[01:37:19] game-body and I like I like the game.

[01:37:21] I like the strategy, but I don't want

[01:37:22] to watch a game-body season.

[01:37:23] I want to see people to you know, and

[01:37:25] people like Ben bring that for me and

[01:37:26] people like Liz as well, you know this

[01:37:28] person who who suffers and has these

[01:37:32] outbursts because they are completely

[01:37:34] depleted, you know, it's a reminder of

[01:37:35] how tough the game is.

[01:37:36] So yeah credit to Ben and credits his

[01:37:39] final tribal council as well.

[01:37:40] He didn't try sell anything that wasn't

[01:37:41] true.

[01:37:43] He spoke his truth.

[01:37:43] He didn't try BS his way through make

[01:37:45] things up to be what they weren't to

[01:37:47] try and take a win.

[01:37:50] He was also humble in defeat.

[01:37:52] I mean, I don't know what he actually

[01:37:53] genuinely thought his chances are

[01:37:54] we're winning we going about how Charlie

[01:37:56] was so gracious and defeat but you know

[01:37:58] there been was too.

[01:38:01] So yeah, I mean like you say we don't

[01:38:02] want to completely admit him in it seems

[01:38:05] like the jury did overlook him a bit

[01:38:07] but I mean that's that sometimes

[01:38:08] unfortunately the game doesn't mean

[01:38:10] that he has any less important to the

[01:38:12] you know great season.

[01:38:14] Well, we see that I think in final

[01:38:15] threes and I think for him like I

[01:38:17] actually thought he advocated for his

[01:38:18] game better at the after show in part

[01:38:22] than the final tribal council.

[01:38:23] He spoke more about like kind of like

[01:38:24] battling through that adversity and I

[01:38:27] think that might have been because

[01:38:28] like that's what it's like to face a

[01:38:29] really tough jury who are icing you

[01:38:30] out like it's not going to put you at

[01:38:31] your best.

[01:38:32] I thought he could have elevated

[01:38:33] himself even a little bit more like

[01:38:34] Kenzie's the one who gets the credit

[01:38:36] kind of with Q but like difficult in

[01:38:38] like saving Ben I would have been like

[01:38:40] I did that, you know who gets credit

[01:38:42] for that like she saved Ben but he

[01:38:43] went out of his way to make that

[01:38:44] connection so that he was saved above

[01:38:45] him who was technically part of this

[01:38:47] Alliance where I was very high on that

[01:38:50] at the time.

[01:38:50] I'm like what a great social game a

[01:38:52] very passive social game, but a social

[01:38:53] game nonetheless and that that

[01:38:54] connection I think is important.

[01:38:57] I do think that he was called out

[01:38:59] was not called out for but people

[01:39:00] were of like people had said in

[01:39:02] confessionals not that he would know

[01:39:03] this but I mean we know this now

[01:39:05] that's why maybe you should hit home

[01:39:06] in those points and again we can go

[01:39:07] in that cycle but people that said

[01:39:09] your Ben is super likable.

[01:39:11] He really is he's super likable and

[01:39:14] yet despite that likeability which

[01:39:16] now makes him a threat there he gets

[01:39:18] there and he wins an epic final

[01:39:20] try final immunity challenge against

[01:39:23] the odds against others who have won

[01:39:27] you know being sleep deprived.

[01:39:28] Okay, everybody's deprived at this

[01:39:30] point and yeah, I mean there's there's

[01:39:31] a lot of there's a lot of credit you

[01:39:33] could you could give to those moments

[01:39:35] that maybe he didn't hit home on or

[01:39:36] if he did we didn't get to see it

[01:39:38] because of you know what the outcome

[01:39:40] was well, I think socially he was

[01:39:41] going a lot on like that kind of

[01:39:43] four that came together the final

[01:39:44] four but it's hard because you're

[01:39:45] sitting next to two of them who

[01:39:46] might have more like active things

[01:39:47] to speak about or be more prominent

[01:39:49] like Kenzie is or have more specific

[01:39:52] moves like Charlie can't kind of

[01:39:53] speak to it even interjects and does

[01:39:55] that at a point.

[01:39:56] So I think it is tough.

[01:39:57] I do think like a floor was probably

[01:39:59] he kept saying about how he'd been

[01:40:00] dealt a bad hand like at the merge.

[01:40:02] I think that's tough because like

[01:40:03] Yanu had the toughest hand and that's

[01:40:05] Kenzie and Charlie also comes in

[01:40:07] at a very similar spot to him.

[01:40:08] I think from the merge from Seager

[01:40:10] and then manages it better.

[01:40:11] So I feel like kind of the excuses

[01:40:12] weren't the vibe but there was stuff

[01:40:15] he could have spoken to that.

[01:40:16] I just think you know, it is tough

[01:40:18] and he probably didn't have a lot

[01:40:18] of confidence.

[01:40:19] He says like he doesn't think he

[01:40:20] can win and he's making this like

[01:40:22] very personal fire decision, which

[01:40:24] like if he if he wants to win any

[01:40:26] perspective zero vote finalists

[01:40:28] should put themselves into fire.

[01:40:29] I know that it's a metric we don't

[01:40:30] care about but like if you have

[01:40:32] nothing to lose, so if you lose a

[01:40:33] fire, it doesn't matter and you

[01:40:35] could gain something you always

[01:40:36] should that would be the move to

[01:40:37] put himself against Kenzie or

[01:40:39] Charlie to be like they were the

[01:40:42] biggest threat and that was like

[01:40:43] my thing to take them down because

[01:40:44] it's such a big deal to like put

[01:40:45] yourself in then you have to be a

[01:40:47] different human being obviously

[01:40:48] than the decision he was making

[01:40:49] but yeah, I enjoyed it.

[01:40:51] I mean he could be thinking like

[01:40:53] well, you know if I put myself

[01:40:54] into fire and lose then Liz is

[01:40:56] there and Liz has a chance of

[01:40:57] taking some votes away from Kenzie

[01:40:59] and Charlie and I want one of

[01:41:00] Kenzie or Charlie to win.

[01:41:01] So, you know, they're trying to

[01:41:03] do it.

[01:41:04] He was selfish and which you should

[01:41:07] be if he was being completely

[01:41:08] strategically optimal and like

[01:41:09] self-interested then yes, like

[01:41:10] yeah, he's not that human.

[01:41:13] Yeah, and he wanted to tell his

[01:41:14] story.

[01:41:15] I think that was a bit even though

[01:41:16] they didn't really let him do it.

[01:41:17] So that was kind of ironic but I

[01:41:19] thought like the emotion he was

[01:41:20] bringing like people seemed

[01:41:20] annoyed at it kind of like back

[01:41:21] at Bhanu that was another bookend

[01:41:23] but um like the emotional guy

[01:41:25] crying that people are annoyed

[01:41:26] about but I'm really enjoying

[01:41:27] because at least you're being

[01:41:28] vulnerable and it just mattered

[01:41:30] so much to him that was so

[01:41:32] endearing even though it was

[01:41:34] like, you know, completely

[01:41:36] unstrategic that was the best

[01:41:37] part of that segment because I

[01:41:38] felt like the fire segment really

[01:41:39] dragged other than the Flint song

[01:41:41] that they made which I did think

[01:41:42] was really cool.

[01:41:44] Yeah, prepping fire that whole

[01:41:46] time and the decision of like

[01:41:47] who was likely just going to beat

[01:41:48] live in fire was not I was like

[01:41:50] get to the final tribal council.

[01:41:51] That's where my that's where my

[01:41:52] time is, but I did think Ben's

[01:41:54] emotion was a fairly compelling

[01:41:56] part of that.

[01:41:58] Yeah, I know people are bug

[01:41:59] bite.

[01:41:59] I love seeing the vulnerability

[01:42:02] others are like, oh, we don't

[01:42:03] want to see crybaby like you're

[01:42:04] never gonna please everybody but

[01:42:06] I do like the reminders of how

[01:42:09] hard this game is physically

[01:42:11] mentally emotionally, whatever

[01:42:14] any kind of Lee you can throw in

[01:42:15] there. The game is tough in so

[01:42:17] so many ways and people might

[01:42:19] see this as like being weak or

[01:42:20] soft whatever I see it as being

[01:42:21] vulnerable and I think all these

[01:42:23] things like even Liz's outbursts

[01:42:25] any complaint about lack of food

[01:42:27] like resource from anyone.

[01:42:29] It's a reminder and any quit

[01:42:31] even you know when people quit

[01:42:32] I hate seeing a quit but it's a

[01:42:33] reminder of how freaking tough

[01:42:35] and draining this game is and

[01:42:36] especially in this even in or

[01:42:38] especially in this 26 day format

[01:42:40] where they're further deprived

[01:42:41] to speed up the deprivation

[01:42:43] right? So yeah, I love the

[01:42:47] I love the realness of that and

[01:42:48] the vulnerability and maybe

[01:42:50] that's because I'm also soft and

[01:42:52] you know fluffy so that's why

[01:42:53] it would resonate with me but

[01:42:55] definitely loving for that.

[01:42:59] Judy was boring.

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[01:45:02] Yeah well you mentioned Liz. So

[01:45:04] a couple of things for Liz.

[01:45:06] Like yeah in terms of like the

[01:45:06] scarcity and how difficult it

[01:45:08] was. It continues to annoy me

[01:45:09] she's like oh you don't have to

[01:45:10] take me on the reward because

[01:45:11] I'm allergic to pasta. The fact

[01:45:13] that they're not accommodating

[01:45:14] that is genuinely really a big

[01:45:17] miss and also like made Kenzie's

[01:45:18] decision easier and less

[01:45:19] interesting. So I feel like

[01:45:21] everyone should be able to eat

[01:45:22] every reward that they might be

[01:45:23] picked on or earned. Very like

[01:45:24] what if she'd won and she

[01:45:25] wouldn't eat like anyway very

[01:45:26] very strange but. Absolutely

[01:45:28] agree 100 percent and I think

[01:45:30] going forward it's going to be

[01:45:31] more of a consideration. Well

[01:45:32] why is it not it's just anyway

[01:45:34] bizarre like I just don't

[01:45:36] understand. I know that in

[01:45:37] Australia I think they are

[01:45:38] accommodating like even like

[01:45:39] vegetarians so like veggie

[01:45:41] burgers and yeah like maybe you

[01:45:42] don't any reward literally that

[01:45:44] they can cook something up in

[01:45:44] the kitchen even a different

[01:45:46] whatever. I've said it enough

[01:45:47] but it's honestly very strange

[01:45:48] like how little they

[01:45:49] accommodated for her. So let's

[01:45:51] let's talk about this. So

[01:45:53] because Liz in this in this

[01:45:54] episode. So we see her perception

[01:45:58] of herself as being like a big

[01:45:59] big threat and a couple of

[01:46:00] things about this confused me

[01:46:01] because I felt like she had the

[01:46:03] same perception of herself as I

[01:46:04] did which was like drawing a

[01:46:06] little dead. Well you never

[01:46:07] think you're drawing dead but

[01:46:08] like I felt like she thought

[01:46:09] maybe she was behind because

[01:46:11] she felt like she had a lack

[01:46:13] of kind of threat level which

[01:46:14] led her to doing the Tevin move

[01:46:16] which she thought then went

[01:46:17] badly leading to the Applebee's

[01:46:18] meltdown which is like leading

[01:46:20] to the Applebee's meltdown is a

[01:46:21] funny sentence but and then

[01:46:23] she said she felt like she got

[01:46:24] respect from the meltdown but

[01:46:25] like are you winning on the

[01:46:25] respect of that and like is

[01:46:27] scarcity like so if scarcity is

[01:46:30] the full draw card and the fact

[01:46:31] of like how much you've gone

[01:46:32] through now and it's all about

[01:46:34] you know, well, I guess like

[01:46:36] it would be the one the one

[01:46:37] change would be the Applebee's

[01:46:38] meltdown getting her respect but

[01:46:39] otherwise like they were saying

[01:46:40] like you've had unintentionally

[01:46:41] the hardest game like if that's

[01:46:42] the whole story then why do you

[01:46:45] care about who did the soda

[01:46:46] vote? If it's going to be on

[01:46:48] that what like yeah, why was it

[01:46:50] about making moves that then

[01:46:51] went badly but now you you feel

[01:46:53] like you're the biggest threat.

[01:46:53] I don't really understand that

[01:46:55] and I do think the show was at

[01:46:56] least trying to communicate

[01:46:57] that the jury didn't vibe with

[01:46:58] it because I mean they were

[01:46:59] cutting to those reaction shots

[01:47:00] which could be at any point.

[01:47:01] I think that you know, I agree

[01:47:05] with what they were presenting

[01:47:06] of the jury but like how did you

[01:47:08] feel about Liz's chances or how

[01:47:11] she felt her chances were in

[01:47:12] this episode? So the edits from

[01:47:16] the edit it just seemed like

[01:47:17] she had low chance of winning

[01:47:21] particularly against the Kenzie

[01:47:23] or Charlie and especially

[01:47:24] Amaria, right? If we look at

[01:47:26] it from a final five onwards

[01:47:29] and the jury's reaction kind of

[01:47:34] confirms that for me that perhaps

[01:47:36] her perception of her own game

[01:47:38] was skewed. But it's not

[01:47:39] necessarily the jury's reaction.

[01:47:40] That could have been at any

[01:47:42] point. Those shots, they want

[01:47:43] us to think that for sure but

[01:47:44] like to be fair, we could show

[01:47:45] Venus rolling her eyes at

[01:47:46] literally probably 50 different

[01:47:47] points but that's what they

[01:47:49] communicate and I agree with it.

[01:47:50] I just want to like point that

[01:47:51] out that it could be. What I'm

[01:47:53] not sure about is the final

[01:47:57] three and their perception of

[01:47:59] Liz's threat level because are

[01:48:02] they completely placating her

[01:48:03] and trying to appease an ego

[01:48:05] when they go like well you were

[01:48:06] super threatening and that's why

[01:48:07] you're going that way, you know?

[01:48:09] Although it's one person's

[01:48:11] decision. It's just Ben and Ben

[01:48:12] also wants to choose his friend

[01:48:14] so it's like an easy narrative

[01:48:15] to just like and he's not

[01:48:16] necessarily making like a fully

[01:48:18] strategic decision so it's like

[01:48:19] an easy one to go with in so

[01:48:21] many different ways. Charlie

[01:48:24] credits her in his final

[01:48:25] tribal council pitch and says

[01:48:26] threat level is he just

[01:48:27] placating her and appeasing her?

[01:48:29] He says he would have taken her

[01:48:29] to the end. Yeah. Enzi's the

[01:48:31] one who says that she would

[01:48:33] have, that she feels she would

[01:48:34] have gone to beat Liz because

[01:48:35] she felt she had a better chance

[01:48:36] against the two Seeger guys but

[01:48:38] also that makes sense as a

[01:48:40] juror. I mean she doesn't get

[01:48:41] that jury vote but it makes

[01:48:43] sense to do that rather than

[01:48:44] being like these two guys next

[01:48:45] to me were bigger threats

[01:48:46] because they're not voting for

[01:48:47] you. I mean Ben might have had

[01:48:48] to but you would think probably

[01:48:50] they're juror, they won't be

[01:48:52] jurors and that won't matter

[01:48:53] you know. Yeah so look my

[01:48:56] general feeling from what I

[01:48:58] saw is that she wasn't as

[01:48:59] bigger threat as what she

[01:49:01] thought she was but no player

[01:49:03] is as big a threat as they

[01:49:04] generally think they are not

[01:49:05] even like myself or anybody

[01:49:07] else because we're all the

[01:49:07] heroes of our own stories when

[01:49:09] we're there and we only see

[01:49:10] knowns we all see our own

[01:49:11] stories unfold and we don't

[01:49:13] necessarily know everybody

[01:49:14] else's journeys or moves or

[01:49:15] subtleties or whatever so I

[01:49:17] don't think anybody is ever as

[01:49:18] big a threat as they generally

[01:49:21] think they are in their own

[01:49:21] minds but I think probably her

[01:49:25] where she is in reality to

[01:49:26] where she thought she was at

[01:49:27] that point in the game is

[01:49:29] probably a bit further off and

[01:49:30] I think you know her R-Roll

[01:49:31] like going out of four, her

[01:49:34] you guys what is the line

[01:49:37] exactly it was something

[01:49:39] something I had your beat just

[01:49:41] before that what did you say

[01:49:42] you guys are? It was over for

[01:49:43] you guys. It was over for you

[01:49:45] guys that was it was over for

[01:49:46] you guys had your beats

[01:49:47] whatever I was like no I don't

[01:49:51] think so and I think the

[01:49:53] the editors play on that a

[01:49:54] little bit and they tell a

[01:49:57] bit of the truth that you

[01:49:58] know the viewer perception

[01:49:59] that we've now got of her is

[01:50:01] the perception of what people

[01:50:02] had of her in the game and

[01:50:03] that's why they've edited it

[01:50:03] in that way because if you

[01:50:06] get the Maria edit the Maria

[01:50:07] gets the iconic yes absolutely

[01:50:10] he has a fallen icon somebody

[01:50:11] who would have gone on to win

[01:50:12] the game they edit her in

[01:50:13] a very different way they

[01:50:14] don't show her as this like

[01:50:16] delusional person who thinks

[01:50:18] she would have won they give

[01:50:20] every reason to confirm that

[01:50:21] she was the strong contender

[01:50:22] and that's why she's going

[01:50:23] there you know where's the

[01:50:25] edits Liz very differently

[01:50:27] whether that's because she's

[01:50:27] a soft target or because it's

[01:50:28] a true reflection of the game

[01:50:31] you know there's probably a

[01:50:32] bit of a balance there but

[01:50:33] yeah does that answer your

[01:50:34] question? Well I mean I

[01:50:37] as you said like I had you

[01:50:38] all be it was over for you

[01:50:39] guys like that's very extreme

[01:50:40] I think if it had been like

[01:50:41] I really think I have a

[01:50:41] shot okay that we might be

[01:50:43] like I'm definitively the

[01:50:45] biggest that never felt right

[01:50:46] and even with like the

[01:50:47] information that's come out

[01:50:48] since so basically Liz said

[01:50:49] on social media and then in

[01:50:50] x interviews that she's not

[01:50:51] really a millionaire she was

[01:50:52] playing up everything and

[01:50:54] then was gonna like reveal

[01:50:54] the final travel council that

[01:50:55] she like has people to

[01:50:56] support and she's like not as

[01:50:58] well off as she showed so

[01:51:00] there's this shows a couple

[01:51:01] of different things I mean

[01:51:02] the whole her whole thing was

[01:51:04] like apparently lessening her

[01:51:04] threat level we saw this a

[01:51:05] couple of times but she also

[01:51:07] said on Twitter you know that

[01:51:09] like oh it was a good move to

[01:51:10] not look for the idol as an

[01:51:11] example because now I'm not a

[01:51:12] threat so the whole thing was

[01:51:14] unlike I don't want to be a

[01:51:15] threat that I don't think I'm

[01:51:16] like everyone's looking for the

[01:51:16] idol it wouldn't make you a

[01:51:17] threat if anything is just

[01:51:18] adding to a negative perception

[01:51:19] like she really went hard on

[01:51:21] and on creating like probably

[01:51:22] an actively quite negative

[01:51:23] perception that she'd have to

[01:51:24] fully reverse what she was

[01:51:25] gonna do with this reveal that

[01:51:27] she's not as wealthy as she

[01:51:29] was putting forward so even

[01:51:32] though I don't think I think

[01:51:32] at all everyone's like I'm

[01:51:33] always have the less of my

[01:51:34] threat level and even people

[01:51:35] say that pre pregame I'm gonna

[01:51:37] not say that I'm this

[01:51:38] profession because I need a

[01:51:39] less my threat level and I

[01:51:40] always say some of you don't

[01:51:41] need a lesson your threat

[01:51:41] level some of you actually

[01:51:42] need to ask your threat level

[01:51:43] you're not going to get for

[01:51:44] it's at the end so I think

[01:51:45] there's a part of that but in

[01:51:46] saying that I do think the

[01:51:48] idea of like like changing a

[01:51:50] whole part of yourself and

[01:51:52] all and like making yourself

[01:51:53] like seem like as a person

[01:51:56] less threatening and then

[01:51:57] having a reveal is I think at

[01:51:59] least creative and fun so I'm

[01:52:00] interested in that I think it

[01:52:02] works better in the reverse

[01:52:03] like it would be a lot easier

[01:52:04] to actually be the type of

[01:52:06] like like say like Q actually

[01:52:08] is really really wealthy and

[01:52:09] he keeps just he acts like

[01:52:10] he's wealthy and then at final

[01:52:11] travel council just lie like

[01:52:12] that's just lying at final

[01:52:13] travel council is much easier

[01:52:15] than lying for 26 days but like

[01:52:16] I still think that this is

[01:52:17] great but like let's to dig

[01:52:19] into it a couple of things I

[01:52:21] can't verify what happened in

[01:52:22] confessional versus what

[01:52:24] happened with the game she

[01:52:26] said she was talking about how

[01:52:27] she was playing it up I mean

[01:52:28] I'd have to rewatch the season

[01:52:29] I assume she was really rich I

[01:52:32] don't know we all assume she

[01:52:33] was rich was she talking about

[01:52:33] in confessional can someone let

[01:52:35] me know because I I don't know

[01:52:37] yes I'm with you there for some

[01:52:40] reason I remember her and

[01:52:43] again I could be completely

[01:52:44] wrong but I'm what let me

[01:52:47] confuse is I'm sure there was

[01:52:49] somewhere else that she said

[01:52:49] she was a millionaire and that

[01:52:50] was in confessional and that's

[01:52:52] what like confused me about her

[01:52:53] statements afterwards of like

[01:52:54] oh no I was just playing it up

[01:52:55] because then you don't go and

[01:52:55] say that in confessional but

[01:52:59] like you I can't confirm that

[01:53:00] so it would be great to yeah

[01:53:01] I'm just like yeah it's the

[01:53:03] fact that I feel blindsided

[01:53:04] yeah like she like if like she

[01:53:07] had this like this reveal but

[01:53:09] we didn't even know about it

[01:53:10] feels like wait were we duped

[01:53:12] the whole time that we had we

[01:53:13] fed this false narrative the

[01:53:14] whole time because how does

[01:53:15] that feel possible yeah and so

[01:53:18] so I mean if she never brought

[01:53:19] it up in confessional the

[01:53:20] millionaire thing then I can

[01:53:22] fully believe and go like okay

[01:53:23] cool this was a strategic kind

[01:53:25] of game move that was thought

[01:53:28] of from day one and credits to

[01:53:30] her for playing the long game

[01:53:30] while still playing short games

[01:53:32] in between I mean it would

[01:53:33] actually be pretty cool to be

[01:53:34] like yeah well part of the

[01:53:35] reason why I'm sitting here is

[01:53:36] because people you know thought

[01:53:38] that you wouldn't give me the

[01:53:38] money because I'm this

[01:53:39] multi-millionaire and but in

[01:53:41] actual fact you know here's my

[01:53:43] story I think there is there

[01:53:47] is some weight behind that if

[01:53:49] executed well and tactfully if

[01:53:53] executed while intact believe

[01:53:54] which would have been would

[01:53:56] have been left to be seen

[01:53:57] there was a big part of me

[01:53:58] that wanted to see a Liz

[01:53:59] Charlie Kenzie final three

[01:54:00] that would have been unreal as

[01:54:03] well so yeah I don't know and

[01:54:08] the waiting I think conceptually

[01:54:11] like you say fun and creative

[01:54:14] and not the first person to

[01:54:15] lie about what they do you know

[01:54:17] to to mitigate the threat

[01:54:18] level I think headdresses are

[01:54:21] now going to start lying about

[01:54:22] what they do what do you do

[01:54:24] for living on I'm definitely a

[01:54:25] lawyer real estate agent is

[01:54:28] that yeah but it is and people

[01:54:36] always like really like

[01:54:37] hairdresser with a lawyer like

[01:54:38] yes the very social creative

[01:54:41] outgoing professionally yes that

[01:54:42] actually is that is the best

[01:54:43] thing to be but yeah I think

[01:54:48] there's a lot of question marks

[01:54:52] around around cool cool that

[01:54:57] Kenzie's come out and said

[01:54:58] like look guys like she's

[01:54:59] actually quite level-headed

[01:54:59] we've seen the outburst side

[01:55:01] and I can absolutely believe

[01:55:02] that as well right that Liz

[01:55:03] isn't the Liz that we saw 90%

[01:55:07] of Liz content on the show

[01:55:08] isn't 90% of Liz in the real

[01:55:10] world right and I can

[01:55:11] definitely get on board with

[01:55:12] that and it's cool that

[01:55:12] Kenzie's come out and kind of

[01:55:14] defended that I definitely

[01:55:15] believe that but you know Liz

[01:55:17] was that person in those

[01:55:18] moments that we saw and she

[01:55:20] definitely carried some sort

[01:55:21] of belief through and she made

[01:55:22] those comments about you know

[01:55:23] over for you guys so she

[01:55:24] obviously did view herself in

[01:55:26] a particular way right and

[01:55:27] maybe underestimated the people

[01:55:29] around her a little bit and

[01:55:30] I think that would have

[01:55:31] bitten in the ass in the in

[01:55:32] a final tribal council I

[01:55:33] think that would have been

[01:55:34] heavily exposed yeah yeah

[01:55:38] sorry I'm going I'm going

[01:55:39] well I mean I'm just thinking

[01:55:41] about it because people do

[01:55:42] lie all the time about things

[01:55:43] like exactly like being a

[01:55:44] lawyer over and over again

[01:55:45] people lie about that but um

[01:55:46] and this is like it was more

[01:55:48] like that's like subtracting

[01:55:49] something from yourself like I

[01:55:50] want to hide this part of

[01:55:51] myself this is like creating

[01:55:52] something like I'm a

[01:55:53] millionaire when you're not

[01:55:54] probably reminds me most of

[01:55:55] like Henry was like I'm a

[01:55:56] yoga instructor which wasn't

[01:55:57] true trying to like create a

[01:55:58] persona that he was you know

[01:56:00] then going to utilize and

[01:56:01] that's similar I will say

[01:56:02] then the whole past the whole

[01:56:05] biokinesis thing over being a

[01:56:07] pasta yeah but that's like

[01:56:09] but that's like he is a pasta

[01:56:10] so he's like taking away that

[01:56:11] part of himself then he has to

[01:56:12] write a narrative versus like

[01:56:14] this isn't like detracting

[01:56:15] like any part of yourself

[01:56:17] yourself it's just like it's

[01:56:18] great like a whole new

[01:56:19] different things more like

[01:56:20] creation than like you know

[01:56:22] subtraction but I think once

[01:56:24] you say you're not a lawyer

[01:56:25] you have to be something else

[01:56:25] but this is like creating a

[01:56:27] whole new persona out of like

[01:56:28] thin air whereas I do feel for

[01:56:30] Liz like when she said it on

[01:56:31] social media I was like oh it

[01:56:32] seems like she's like said she

[01:56:34] was like a millionaire but

[01:56:35] like it's completely different

[01:56:36] where it's like in the exits

[01:56:36] it felt a little more vague

[01:56:37] like she's still a successful

[01:56:38] business owner it seems just

[01:56:40] like maybe less successful than

[01:56:41] she came across I don't know if

[01:56:42] that would have hit the same

[01:56:43] way she's like even though she

[01:56:44] was saying in an exit she's

[01:56:45] like I have 4000 clients

[01:56:46] instead of 9000 was that going

[01:56:47] to be the grand reveal not

[01:56:49] super sure but it does explain

[01:56:51] like why because I could be

[01:56:52] like Ben and let's say I've

[01:56:53] been a Ben's in the let's say

[01:56:55] a Ben's in the jury at that

[01:56:57] point because I mean this is

[01:56:59] and he's gonna go like well

[01:57:01] geez like you still got ample

[01:57:02] and actually like you

[01:57:03] completely lose him for that

[01:57:06] reason you know yeah he's like

[01:57:08] well he might like be really

[01:57:11] hurt by it but I also feel

[01:57:12] like he might be like but that

[01:57:13] still sounds like some level of

[01:57:14] success I think that like

[01:57:17] yeah in terms of her pathway

[01:57:19] I wondered like who are you

[01:57:20] gonna sit next to you must

[01:57:21] know that you have like a poor

[01:57:22] path because she seemed to be

[01:57:23] concerned about it at the

[01:57:24] Tevin vote and it seems like

[01:57:26] well obviously she was a lot

[01:57:27] higher on her chances and she

[01:57:28] didn't mind who she sat next

[01:57:30] because she felt like she could

[01:57:30] beat anyone with this I still

[01:57:31] feel like you want a pathway

[01:57:32] that's the best for you even

[01:57:34] though she had said like in

[01:57:35] terms of like taking out

[01:57:35] someone like you she felt like

[01:57:36] she had to like make good on

[01:57:38] that like lives VQ narrative

[01:57:39] which does make sense but

[01:57:42] yeah, I just think that like it

[01:57:43] was a little bit divorced a

[01:57:45] little bit from reality because

[01:57:46] it has to be like well I have

[01:57:47] this all-winning story that's

[01:57:48] like a hundred percent gonna

[01:57:49] win it has to be like this is

[01:57:50] an interesting thing I might

[01:57:51] pull but like let me also have

[01:57:52] the best pathway within that I

[01:57:55] also feel like then she could

[01:57:57] have told been even and like

[01:57:58] not like 4000 versus 9000

[01:58:00] clients but like once Ben is

[01:58:01] like you know crying and he

[01:58:04] feels okay about getting rid

[01:58:05] of you because you are you

[01:58:07] know, you're more wealthy and

[01:58:08] that's what matters to him like

[01:58:08] be like no I'm really not

[01:58:10] wealthy like really like I have

[01:58:11] no money.

[01:58:13] So just to stop me recollect

[01:58:14] this does he know at this point

[01:58:15] that does she know at this point

[01:58:17] that that's his metric is that

[01:58:19] well, yeah, he said he said to

[01:58:20] her he said you don't need the

[01:58:21] money and you and he did say

[01:58:24] you're a threat but like that

[01:58:24] and that would make a possibly

[01:58:26] more threating that she has

[01:58:26] this like, you know ace up her

[01:58:28] sleeve, but if he seems to

[01:58:29] really like be emotionally

[01:58:30] driven you might just get

[01:58:31] bent to quit at them.

[01:58:33] You put yourself in a fire and

[01:58:35] lose on purpose.

[01:58:35] No, I think that um that at

[01:58:37] least it would have been

[01:58:38] something different.

[01:58:38] I don't know that it would

[01:58:39] have worked but you think at

[01:58:40] that point if that was what

[01:58:41] she had she would be like no

[01:58:42] actually I'm like really well

[01:58:44] like at that point when she's

[01:58:44] getting sent to fire where she

[01:58:46] feels like she's definitely

[01:58:46] going to lose fire if all she

[01:58:50] gave Ben was like begging him

[01:58:51] to like why comic fine?

[01:58:52] He's like yeah, I think that's

[01:58:52] the point like that's how I'm

[01:58:53] getting rid of you in this

[01:58:54] role, you know, and I think

[01:58:56] instead if you wanted to appeal

[01:58:58] to Ben if that was a card she

[01:59:00] was going to play you think

[01:59:00] you would have played it then

[01:59:01] but anyway, I still admire the

[01:59:04] idea.

[01:59:05] I just don't know if it would

[01:59:06] have played out exactly as she

[01:59:07] believed or as was like kind of

[01:59:09] like more broadly presented but

[01:59:11] it's interesting.

[01:59:15] Yes, and I don't think this is

[01:59:18] another one of those where I

[01:59:19] don't think I'm going to fully

[01:59:20] wrap my head around and

[01:59:23] hashtag survival 46.

[01:59:25] I don't know.

[01:59:25] I can I don't know if I can

[01:59:26] fully wrap my head around it.

[01:59:27] That's it.

[01:59:30] But again, so it's like

[01:59:33] it's great.

[01:59:34] I know I know Liz has taken a

[01:59:35] lot of heat on socials and I've

[01:59:36] even had my moments with Liz

[01:59:38] and you know, like now Maria is

[01:59:39] taking a bit of heat from us

[01:59:40] and people online.

[01:59:44] You've got a zero vote finalist

[01:59:45] in Ben you've got which I mean

[01:59:47] is commonplace these days, but

[01:59:50] with all this being said, these

[01:59:51] are the types of people that

[01:59:52] you know, I love that they're

[01:59:55] being cast and they're including

[01:59:56] the show because this is what

[01:59:57] makes the show so interesting

[01:59:58] like do I want to see do I love

[02:00:00] players like Charlie?

[02:00:00] Yes.

[02:00:01] Do I want to see 20 Charlies

[02:00:02] play against each other?

[02:00:02] No.

[02:00:03] Yeah, do I want to see 20?

[02:00:05] Do I want to see 20 bins

[02:00:06] play against each other?

[02:00:06] No, maybe 20 lizards.

[02:00:08] Maybe okay, maybe 20.

[02:00:12] 20.

[02:00:15] No, just sprinkle.

[02:00:16] Just that's what it is.

[02:00:17] And that's perfect.

[02:00:19] Don't want to overload the

[02:00:19] dish.

[02:00:21] Yeah.

[02:00:22] Well, that's actually a good

[02:00:22] analogy, right?

[02:00:23] But but there were a lot of

[02:00:24] strong.

[02:00:24] I will my analogy is so

[02:00:26] hospitality based at you think

[02:00:27] I'm really hungry.

[02:00:30] It's like a way to bring food.

[02:00:33] I'm with my with my

[02:00:34] Apple.

[02:00:36] Yeah, so I think it's so

[02:00:38] important for costing and I

[02:00:39] know like people are online and

[02:00:40] constantly going like I don't

[02:00:41] like this person.

[02:00:42] I hate this but you know those

[02:00:44] same names pop up every season

[02:00:46] like I don't like this person.

[02:00:48] I'm going to stop watching and

[02:00:49] then next season you see that

[02:00:50] same person on Facebook going.

[02:00:51] I don't like this person.

[02:00:53] I'm going to stop what the

[02:00:54] reality is that when you cast

[02:00:56] I think we got to show it's

[02:00:57] like people that people love

[02:01:01] people that people hate those

[02:01:02] polarizing characters.

[02:01:03] But as soon as there's somebody

[02:01:04] that you feel indifferent about

[02:01:06] then you failed in casting and I

[02:01:07] think that's the thing like how

[02:01:09] many people did we feel

[02:01:09] indifferent about the season

[02:01:10] that we actually got insight

[02:01:12] into very little to none.

[02:01:14] You know, one yeah, and and

[02:01:17] that's that's that's a huge

[02:01:18] credit to the casting of the

[02:01:19] season that I think we would

[02:01:20] have had entertainment.

[02:01:21] Let's say random doesn't get

[02:01:23] medivac and we lose Kenzie for

[02:01:26] example, I think we probably

[02:01:27] have sorted lost by me but

[02:01:29] let's say there's this alternate

[02:01:30] world random doesn't go and

[02:01:33] yeah, I mean the season turns

[02:01:34] out totally differently with

[02:01:35] different, you know, like that

[02:01:37] that means it has a knock-on

[02:01:38] effect and half the half the

[02:01:40] people that went just just

[02:01:42] before merge actually don't go

[02:01:43] and they make merge and we lose

[02:01:44] other maybe a queue or this or

[02:01:46] that like let's say we would

[02:01:48] have still had a really

[02:01:49] entertaining season because of

[02:01:50] who they're casting and because

[02:01:51] they aren't casting this like

[02:01:52] top that you can be in

[02:01:53] different towards so as much

[02:01:55] as like, you know, Liz has

[02:01:57] you know, maybe left question

[02:02:00] mark. She's got tongues wagging

[02:02:01] and that's what you want for

[02:02:02] the show. If you look at the

[02:02:02] ratings the ratings have come

[02:02:04] out super super positive right?

[02:02:05] I mean that says a lot.

[02:02:08] Yeah, I mean she she does she

[02:02:09] does a lot for the season to

[02:02:10] elevate the season like again

[02:02:12] like I say moments where I was

[02:02:14] like on this woman, but I was

[02:02:18] like dude really but other

[02:02:20] moments where I'm like I totally

[02:02:21] feel you and I can totally get

[02:02:23] this deprivation thing is huge

[02:02:24] and you know, thanks for showing

[02:02:25] your human side and you know,

[02:02:27] then she turned around and goes

[02:02:27] like I'm sorry, but thanks for

[02:02:28] giving my moment, you know, so

[02:02:31] she gives us she gives me both

[02:02:32] sides, you know me personally

[02:02:34] of like this like oh my word.

[02:02:35] What are you doing?

[02:02:35] This is like feeling like it

[02:02:37] would be entitled.

[02:02:38] Okay. Here's your reasonable

[02:02:39] side that's coming out and I

[02:02:40] totally get that.

[02:02:41] This is just a product of this

[02:02:43] environment that you put in

[02:02:44] which I know is actually really

[02:02:45] really hard.

[02:02:46] So I appreciate that, you know,

[02:02:48] like people like her.

[02:02:50] Add huge value to a season and

[02:02:52] the entertainment of a season.

[02:02:54] Well, you talked about tongues

[02:02:55] wagging. Let's talk about

[02:02:57] something, you know, very

[02:02:57] intimately which is challenge

[02:02:59] collaboration, which people

[02:03:02] yeah, let's go but we're kind

[02:03:03] of moving back, you know, this

[02:03:04] I've done this all in reverse

[02:03:05] which I think actually has been

[02:03:06] good in terms of the structure

[02:03:07] for the podcast.

[02:03:08] But yeah, it can move kind of to

[02:03:09] the final five round.

[02:03:11] So they they like collaborated

[02:03:13] in the challenge, which is

[02:03:13] something, you know, intimately

[02:03:15] final five and return in the

[02:03:16] outcast four of you collaborated

[02:03:18] against Phil and he still won

[02:03:21] which was such a great moment.

[02:03:22] No offense.

[02:03:23] It really

[02:03:23] no, absolutely.

[02:03:25] Yeah, and also like this is

[02:03:26] this is so to give like context

[02:03:27] for people who don't watch

[02:03:28] globally. I guess if people were

[02:03:30] mad because it of the US and

[02:03:31] they are mad when it happens

[02:03:32] internationally, but it's

[02:03:33] happened a lot happened with you

[02:03:34] guys Australian spy.

[02:03:35] What's happened a lot recently

[02:03:36] like Georgian way was more of an

[02:03:37] emotional thing because she

[02:03:37] couldn't win but he did help her

[02:03:39] and I was like, oh interesting

[02:03:39] precedent because she was like

[02:03:41] behind and then this happened

[02:03:43] with like Liz and Matt against

[02:03:45] Simon actually Simon was a

[02:03:46] smoke screen, but like they

[02:03:47] were trying to like ice out

[02:03:48] Simon and then he won so people

[02:03:50] win it really like it does fire

[02:03:51] people up if they get and then

[02:03:52] like Chrissy helped Josh.

[02:03:54] So it's happening quite a bit

[02:03:56] most physically was this one

[02:03:58] and Matt and Liz were like

[02:04:01] putting into I think was Matt's

[02:04:02] bucket with the running and

[02:04:04] getting water and putting it

[02:04:05] over into Matt's bucket.

[02:04:06] So those are like the most

[02:04:07] physical examples like this

[02:04:08] like Liz actually getting the

[02:04:09] board was very physical.

[02:04:11] You obviously did it but like

[02:04:13] obviously we're going to do it

[02:04:14] if you had the chance but like

[02:04:14] is it something that you can

[02:04:15] don't otherwise like is it

[02:04:17] something that should be

[02:04:17] allowed? Should you be allowed

[02:04:18] to do it?

[02:04:20] So here's my feelings.

[02:04:21] If you game the system if

[02:04:24] there's a flaw an opportunity

[02:04:25] within the game that is within

[02:04:27] the rules of the game and you

[02:04:28] use that to gain a competitive

[02:04:30] edge fair play while then to

[02:04:32] the players for exploiting that

[02:04:35] that could go both ways where

[02:04:36] Kenzie gains as much as she

[02:04:37] loses because maybe that's seen

[02:04:39] by everybody else is this

[02:04:40] massive no-no in the game and

[02:04:42] that actually hurts her chances.

[02:04:43] So it's not a guarantee it sucks

[02:04:45] for Maria, but it could also

[02:04:45] potentially hurt Kenzie's game

[02:04:47] and she didn't even ask Liz to

[02:04:48] do this and by proxy of some

[02:04:50] by proxy of somebody else doing

[02:04:51] something there's so many things

[02:04:53] that could have come out that

[02:04:56] didn't end well for Kenzie on

[02:04:57] this or Liz outside of it sucking

[02:04:59] from Maria. So like there's a

[02:05:01] lot it opens up to should it be

[02:05:03] allowed you're never going to

[02:05:04] stamp out complete collaboration.

[02:05:08] You don't want you don't want

[02:05:09] Jeff or the host to have to

[02:05:11] referee everything and put into

[02:05:12] me confines too many restrictions,

[02:05:15] but you can put certain rules in

[02:05:16] place. Like for example, you

[02:05:18] physically cannot the same way

[02:05:19] you wouldn't be able to actually

[02:05:20] go and obstruct somebody else

[02:05:22] from like you couldn't go and

[02:05:23] kick over a puzzle so you

[02:05:25] couldn't interfere with somebody

[02:05:26] else's courts that that same

[02:05:29] precedent should be on the help

[02:05:30] side. So that's where I believe

[02:05:32] the balance but that is up to

[02:05:33] production to enforce. I suspect

[02:05:34] they might do so after this, but

[02:05:37] you know, that doesn't mean that

[02:05:38] you now stop Liz from step looking

[02:05:41] over and going. Okay, cool.

[02:05:42] Liz. I've just said. Yeah, so

[02:05:44] it doesn't stop her from going.

[02:05:45] Okay, cool that piece over there

[02:05:47] you can put in that corner that

[02:05:48] piece over there. You can put in

[02:05:48] that corner and helping her in

[02:05:49] that way, which is less of a

[02:05:52] time-saving also, but chaotic.

[02:05:54] You never I don't think you're

[02:05:55] ever going to stop that but the

[02:05:56] physical side of it. I think

[02:05:58] that that should go on both

[02:06:00] sides. You can't kick somebody

[02:06:01] stuff over you can't pick it up

[02:06:02] and go build it for them either

[02:06:03] or helping that way. But again,

[02:06:06] like I say, I have no issue with

[02:06:08] the players having exploited

[02:06:10] that absolutely freaking sucks

[02:06:12] for Maria 100% but that's not on

[02:06:17] the players. That's on that's on

[02:06:18] the production side of things.

[02:06:20] That's my feet. I don't know

[02:06:21] where we we agree on like

[02:06:23] literally every single thing. So

[02:06:24] I agree like firstly whatever it

[02:06:25] should be very clear to the

[02:06:26] players and like very consistent

[02:06:28] and Define people were mad

[02:06:29] because like, you know, Sophie

[02:06:31] and Albert she said drop your

[02:06:33] stack and he wasn't allowed to

[02:06:34] do it. But that was a very long

[02:06:36] time ago to be there so that and

[02:06:37] that's like the US precedent

[02:06:38] because another other examples

[02:06:40] like example of the challenge we

[02:06:42] ended up getting later in this

[02:06:44] episode where was where like

[02:06:46] Adam helped Ken but that was

[02:06:47] again on like verbal communication

[02:06:49] so it is a bit different. I do

[02:06:51] think that it creates an underdog

[02:06:53] narrative that I think can be

[02:06:55] interesting and especially for

[02:06:56] keeping it just verbal clearly

[02:06:57] it didn't work with you. It

[02:06:59] didn't work with Simon. So it

[02:07:00] actually backfired with us in a

[02:07:01] sense because now here we were

[02:07:03] in this in this particular

[02:07:04] challenge Shane had gotten this

[02:07:05] advantage to tell us exact

[02:07:07] number of this one item. Yeah

[02:07:09] memory challenge. Yeah, which

[02:07:11] was a counting challenge. The

[02:07:12] counting. Yeah, counting memory

[02:07:15] which was shared amongst the

[02:07:16] four of us and not the fifth

[02:07:17] but the the the problem was that

[02:07:19] we had to keep you know a little

[02:07:21] flaps close so that somebody

[02:07:22] couldn't see what our numbers

[02:07:24] were and there goes Kalani and

[02:07:25] Shane running off leaving their

[02:07:27] little flaps open. So you feel

[02:07:29] good very easy and he did he

[02:07:30] exploited that and credit him

[02:07:32] for doing that. He looked over

[02:07:32] and he went to this actively to

[02:07:34] start looking at their numbers

[02:07:35] and using that we were helping

[02:07:36] each other. So he was just

[02:07:37] helping himself. It's up to the

[02:07:38] place to keep it closed. So

[02:07:39] then he got that information

[02:07:40] for free anyway, and we didn't

[02:07:41] shut him out in that way and we

[02:07:42] created chaos amongst ourselves

[02:07:43] and he just came out on top and

[02:07:45] I was like in that moment. I

[02:07:46] was like damn sucks to be us

[02:07:48] but I was like super because I

[02:07:49] do genuinely love the guy and I

[02:07:50] did love him in the game. I was

[02:07:51] like super happy for him at the

[02:07:52] same time because I was like

[02:07:54] what a badass like here we go

[02:07:55] with the rainbow and I couldn't

[02:07:58] help but celebrate it with him

[02:07:59] in the moment and be like, yeah,

[02:08:00] we're idiots, you know, like

[02:08:02] it's going to be an epic moment

[02:08:03] so it does set up was like some

[02:08:04] good TV, but there's got to be

[02:08:06] boundaries in place because even

[02:08:08] that is a little bit and I was

[02:08:10] a part of it and even that for

[02:08:11] me is a bit too collaborative

[02:08:13] if we had done it in a way where

[02:08:16] during the challenge, you know,

[02:08:18] I left my flap open so you could

[02:08:19] see you ran over and then close

[02:08:21] my flap and ran away kind of

[02:08:22] thing and it had to be more

[02:08:23] strategic than us like

[02:08:24] completely if there were some

[02:08:25] boundaries in place would have

[02:08:26] been a bit better because then

[02:08:28] there's like a risk reward

[02:08:29] ratio. So even that I think was

[02:08:31] a bit too easy to collaborate

[02:08:34] on but yeah innately I believe

[02:08:38] that an individual challenge

[02:08:40] everybody has a right to compete

[02:08:41] for individual immunity

[02:08:44] individual immunity is that

[02:08:46] one part of the game that's

[02:08:46] completely in your hands that

[02:08:48] that should actually be

[02:08:49] unobstructed and completely a

[02:08:50] level playing field unless you've

[02:08:52] earned an advantage or

[02:08:53] disadvantage for whatever reason

[02:08:55] in that game, you know that

[02:08:56] outside of that. So that's how

[02:08:58] I feel innately do I feel the

[02:08:59] players have done wrong in this

[02:09:00] instance? No, they've exploited

[02:09:01] the game absolutely go for it.

[02:09:05] This is a game for a million

[02:09:06] dollars and you've played within

[02:09:07] the rule sets. Nobody said stop.

[02:09:08] So hey, there we go.

[02:09:09] Yeah, it's more about whether

[02:09:10] like production should allow it

[02:09:12] and like I'm the same as like

[02:09:13] I like it because it's a

[02:09:14] decision. I always like when

[02:09:15] the players can make decisions.

[02:09:16] It makes a challenge more

[02:09:17] strategic, which I love it also

[02:09:19] rewards kind of like the social

[02:09:21] relationships, which is again

[02:09:22] like a value system that I have

[02:09:24] but it is fraught with risk like

[02:09:26] one day someone will do this

[02:09:27] and they will get blindsided.

[02:09:28] I've said this before like you

[02:09:29] are giving up immunity. You are

[02:09:32] not winning that immunity. So

[02:09:33] sometimes one day someone will

[02:09:34] do that and then they'll have

[02:09:35] been like it would have been a

[02:09:36] smoke screen and they'll go

[02:09:37] home and that'll be so

[02:09:38] interesting. So I think that

[02:09:39] like yes of pressing someone to

[02:09:41] the point where they have no

[02:09:41] shot like it was sad to watch

[02:09:42] it happen to Maria that will

[02:09:44] happen some of the time

[02:09:44] particularly if it's as extreme

[02:09:46] as being able to help

[02:09:46] physically but in firing someone

[02:09:49] up to be an underdog which

[02:09:49] you've seen twice across

[02:09:51] Australians and survivor and

[02:09:52] survivor South Africa and in

[02:09:55] giving people the opportunity

[02:09:56] to make a decision which is not

[02:09:58] just the risk of giving up

[02:09:59] immunity, but Charlie even says

[02:10:01] he sees us differently. You put

[02:10:02] yourself out there. You might

[02:10:03] put off a juror like every

[02:10:04] single decision which is has

[02:10:07] pros and cons that you have to

[02:10:08] weigh up and I do like

[02:10:09] decision-making. So for me, I

[02:10:12] want them to be able to

[02:10:13] collaborate if you want to say

[02:10:15] no physical helping as we're

[02:10:16] saying that's what we're

[02:10:17] drawing it because we don't

[02:10:17] want it to go into the kind of

[02:10:19] like opening a can of worms

[02:10:20] into lawlessness as you're

[02:10:21] saying of as I actually have a

[02:10:23] motor is exactly as you said

[02:10:23] like extending to challenge

[02:10:24] destruction. If you can

[02:10:26] physically help the physical

[02:10:28] harm becomes it then then it

[02:10:30] kind of feels like it could

[02:10:31] open that kind of worms and

[02:10:32] that becomes now at this point

[02:10:33] we're just hustling over each

[02:10:34] other's puzzles and that might

[02:10:36] just become a little bit too

[02:10:37] chaotic like in a world where

[02:10:38] they don't want to hide this

[02:10:39] and I disagree with this but

[02:10:40] Jefferson they don't want to

[02:10:41] hide I was a tribal because

[02:10:43] people will tear up the set

[02:10:44] then the challenge is just a

[02:10:45] wrestling match with some some

[02:10:47] obstacle course in between it.

[02:10:48] So that part just it just might

[02:10:50] make sense to just kind of have

[02:10:52] those confines just for the

[02:10:54] sake of getting through the

[02:10:55] challenge, but I still think

[02:10:56] the idea of collaboration makes

[02:10:58] sense and whatever it is needs

[02:10:59] to be consistent and clear to

[02:10:59] the players and that's kind of

[02:11:00] where I sit with it. Is that

[02:11:02] is that move Alice because it

[02:11:04] is considered a decision there

[02:11:05] is a risk like you say, okay

[02:11:06] cool that she probably wasn't

[02:11:08] winning that individual

[02:11:09] immunity challenge at that

[02:11:10] point in your issue so far

[02:11:11] behind right so yeah, but

[02:11:12] they will be like but there's

[02:11:13] still 100% so yeah the

[02:11:16] challenge so is that something

[02:11:18] that she goes to is that

[02:11:19] something that she goes to

[02:11:20] potentially with the final

[02:11:21] tribal council that she goes

[02:11:22] like well this was my move

[02:11:23] Kenzie didn't ask for that

[02:11:24] help. I took the initiative

[02:11:26] Maria look. I know it doesn't

[02:11:28] feel nice, but you're sitting

[02:11:30] on that jury because I

[02:11:31] intervened that was my big

[02:11:32] move. I gave up my shot at

[02:11:33] immunity. I put myself in the

[02:11:35] firing line. I did something

[02:11:37] that's you know, completely

[02:11:38] could be polarizing that could

[02:11:40] jeopardize my game as much as

[02:11:41] it but I went for it and

[02:11:43] credits you as a competitor,

[02:11:44] you know, give it the credit

[02:11:45] and be like this is what it

[02:11:46] took to take you down. There

[02:11:47] was my decision that was my

[02:11:49] decision and that's what I

[02:11:50] had to sacrifice this to get

[02:11:51] in the way does that gonna

[02:11:53] respect from the jury and get

[02:11:54] votes and I think again if

[02:11:56] tactfully and well executed

[02:11:59] as an argument, I think she

[02:12:00] could actually gone to some

[02:12:02] some jury votes before owning

[02:12:03] that portion of the game in a

[02:12:04] game where people are so

[02:12:05] desperately looking for like

[02:12:07] what did you do as an

[02:12:08] individual? Yeah, I think I

[02:12:10] mean definitely for Maria. I

[02:12:11] think that she handled it

[02:12:12] really well and she made Maria

[02:12:13] feel very respected. So I

[02:12:14] thought that was actually like

[02:12:15] a really good part of that

[02:12:16] for Liz in kind of taking

[02:12:18] that risk and making like a

[02:12:19] big in challenge decision,

[02:12:21] which was definitely like the

[02:12:21] most interesting part again of

[02:12:23] the final five which was

[02:12:23] otherwise just so wrote a

[02:12:26] final five but we've seen so

[02:12:27] many times where the biggest

[02:12:29] threat he used to go maybe

[02:12:30] three people are like DF said

[02:12:32] in our interview like I don't

[02:12:33] want that final three round

[02:12:34] was just like, you know,

[02:12:36] science field delivered then

[02:12:37] it became for I now it's at

[02:12:38] five. So other than that

[02:12:39] people pouring around for

[02:12:40] Maria, but I thought this

[02:12:41] challenge that was interesting

[02:12:43] biggest rate now goes at one

[02:12:44] definitely at one biggest

[02:12:45] threat always have fire from

[02:12:48] the three unless they win

[02:12:49] immunity, which was yeah,

[02:12:51] I mean, we're gonna just

[02:12:53] kick that we're gonna just

[02:12:54] kick that can down the road

[02:12:56] and so like okay now the

[02:12:57] biggest three is at five. Okay

[02:12:58] now it's going to go at six.

[02:12:59] Okay now it's going to go at

[02:12:59] seven. We'll just introduce

[02:13:00] me like they can really worry

[02:13:03] because if they realize the

[02:13:04] pattern of like funeral final

[02:13:06] travel counselors of the final

[02:13:06] five and how done it is then

[02:13:10] they probably will try to

[02:13:11] extend it out of how can we

[02:13:12] save the final five but that

[02:13:13] would be a mistake. I feel

[02:13:15] like for Maria here was

[02:13:16] interesting because it was so

[02:13:16] done. There was nothing she

[02:13:17] ends up voting for Ben. I

[02:13:19] thought this was interesting

[02:13:19] from a Charlie perspective

[02:13:20] because last week he tells

[02:13:22] Maria about Q and it was so

[02:13:24] awkward watching her come back

[02:13:26] and having to be like, like

[02:13:27] I actually like the fake

[02:13:28] story that she told him was

[02:13:29] like completely unbelievable

[02:13:30] but like wow, like so I didn't

[02:13:31] want to vote for you. They

[02:13:32] convinced me to vote for you

[02:13:33] even though they were never

[02:13:34] voting for you. So like can

[02:13:35] you like the move from Kenzie

[02:13:36] live that she created to him

[02:13:38] is amazing. She in this world

[02:13:39] they voted out Cuba. They've

[02:13:40] also torn apart Maria and

[02:13:42] Charlie like that would have

[02:13:43] been incredible but she comes

[02:13:44] back really awkwardly and I

[02:13:45] felt like we saw some stuff

[02:13:46] here about because I know that

[02:13:48] some of the biggest

[02:13:48] criticisms of Charlie might be

[02:13:49] like he told Maria last week

[02:13:51] and then the vote was for Q.

[02:13:51] He could have been idled out

[02:13:52] it could have gone home and

[02:13:53] that is true and it is based

[02:13:55] on a misread of Maria that she

[02:13:56] was coming for him and he

[02:13:57] didn't know that so that's

[02:13:58] like probably the biggest

[02:13:59] misreading gap in his game for

[02:14:01] the whole of the game in saying

[02:14:02] that I think we see the

[02:14:03] benefits like she comes back

[02:14:04] vulnerable working with him and

[02:14:06] if she'd been immune and had

[02:14:07] lost kind of the need for that

[02:14:09] which he gained leverage and

[02:14:10] being immune she possibly would

[02:14:12] have come to him. She probably

[02:14:13] would have but maybe not and

[02:14:14] if she finds an idol she's

[02:14:15] maybe working with him like he

[02:14:17] made himself as he says an

[02:14:18] option for her. He kept that

[02:14:20] option open that I think gave

[02:14:21] him a fighting chance compared

[02:14:22] to clearly, you know being one

[02:14:25] person to turn on Q against

[02:14:26] her and then if she comes back

[02:14:28] and she wins immunity like

[02:14:29] she's a hundred percent voting

[02:14:30] against him and that's probably

[02:14:31] three votes where he and Ben

[02:14:32] have nothing so I think we saw

[02:14:34] not only option for her let's

[02:14:36] say like you say she wins at

[02:14:37] five he's an option for her.

[02:14:39] She probably like you say maybe

[02:14:41] probably comes again for him

[02:14:42] but for the other players going

[02:14:44] like we don't want Maria in

[02:14:45] the final he would be the only

[02:14:46] play in the game left outside

[02:14:48] of Maria to have won an

[02:14:49] individual immunity and

[02:14:50] competitive and he could say

[02:14:51] this case to other players like

[02:14:52] okay cool guys like that's

[02:14:53] cool go with Maria and vote

[02:14:54] me out. That's great. Chances

[02:14:57] are she's gonna win another

[02:14:58] immunity and then you've got

[02:14:59] to sit against her or take your

[02:15:01] chances against me keep me

[02:15:03] around I have a shot at you

[02:15:05] know beating her to an immunity

[02:15:09] and you know putting her in

[02:15:11] that fire position like keep me

[02:15:13] around and you know so it kind

[02:15:15] of I don't know. Yeah he could

[02:15:18] have done that but knowing

[02:15:19] Charlie he probably would have

[02:15:20] tried that but the thing is he

[02:15:21] won't rule out an option like

[02:15:22] the like keeping Maria as

[02:15:23] possible ally is an option and

[02:15:25] maybe it's maybe it's Stiga

[02:15:26] Ben and Maria his two closest

[02:15:27] allies protect him at that point

[02:15:29] and maybe it's more on you

[02:15:32] know who can we who's again not

[02:15:34] going to be a threat against

[02:15:35] Maria at that point where we

[02:15:35] need to still have her as a

[02:15:37] number one target even at four

[02:15:38] so do you think do you think

[02:15:43] they they who do you think goes

[02:15:45] at five if Maria wins actually

[02:15:47] I don't think Charlie has a bad

[02:15:49] like it because I think once

[02:15:50] she's won immunity she was

[02:15:51] coming from before and he

[02:15:52] doesn't know that but at the

[02:15:53] point where she is like they

[02:15:54] might all just turn on Charlie

[02:15:55] as like the next biggest threat

[02:15:56] but it is possible that he can

[02:15:57] be like okay look like Kenzie

[02:15:58] such a big threat and if Maria

[02:16:00] is not mad at him and it's kind

[02:16:03] of like how to tell between her

[02:16:04] legs it's hard because she'd be

[02:16:05] immune so she'd have all the

[02:16:06] power there's no more voting

[02:16:07] around she doesn't need to stay

[02:16:09] in good with him at all but I

[02:16:10] think that there's a chance that

[02:16:12] she she could protect him I

[02:16:14] think Ben's definitely

[02:16:15] protecting him and I think as

[02:16:16] well if she finds an idol that

[02:16:18] becomes interesting like maybe

[02:16:19] it's on her winning the

[02:16:20] challenge where she just fully