Summer of Survivor | Hot Mess Tribe Tier List

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[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: MTV's official challenge podcast is back for another season.

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[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Summer of Survivor.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: My name is Mike Bloom, and listen, we are looking ahead to the fall, the next season coming up.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But today, we're going to be talking about many, many falls,

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: because a lot of these tribes had some downfalls in the game of Survivor.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So today, we're throwing it back, a little bit of outplay, a tier list of not just any Survivor tribes,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: but some of the biggest hot mess tribes in Survivor history.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, I'm not alone here.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm joined each and every week by one of the co-hosts here on Summer of Survivor, Shannon Gush.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Shannon, how are you?

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm great. I'm glad that we're doing this,

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: because I feel like disaster tribes are such a big part of the conversation at the moment, right?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I do love that you started with, I'm glad we're doing this.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_04]: That already passes the smell test of like, was this a good idea to do?

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_04]: If the co-host says this was a good idea.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, I mean, I'm the one who had extreme agency in whether we did it.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We came up with this idea together, and I'm glad we're doing this.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I am very excited to bring in this third party.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, Rob is away for the week, but this person will very much rise to the occasion.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Look, she kept a tennis ball on her head for 15 hours,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: so she could handle the asylum where these people were raised,

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: into the form of these hot mess tribes.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So excited to welcome to the podcast, Mary Krakowski.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone. I am so glad to be here.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was just ranting before this podcast started about how I rarely get asked to be on fun things.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And today is no different.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I have been on a hot mess tribe once or twice myself,

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: usually fake ones that don't actually exist.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But like when we play sports, like kickball and stuff,

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: we do a branch deal with my friends in order to see the kicking order and things like that.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've been out first, like multiple times.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, wait. God, we don't have a lot of time, but I need to like quickly pick into this.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So you figure out like your batting order essentially by running a branch deal?

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, of course. How else does anyone do it?

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Isn't that normal?

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I've found someone that descended my obsession with said software in the form of Mary.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: That is incredible.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: That's like kind of shaking up the Magic 8 ball to determine every decision you make on a daily basis.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much. I recommend it's a fun way to make decisions for anything.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we all do that.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike, you have the Magic 8 ball, I have the bigger balls,

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Mary will do it through a branch deal, and that's how all our decisions will be made.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, regardless of what the decision-making device might be,

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: we have a lot of decisions to make today.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So this is something that Rob and I did back during,

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: God, I want to say it was maybe like the summer of 2022?

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Where we did a series of podcasts where we did tier lists featuring various amount of survivor topics.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe actually you both were on editions of that podcast.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're bringing it back today to talk about a very specialized subject in Survivor.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Hot mess tribes across 46 seasons.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Some tribes rise, some fall, some rise then fall, some fall then rise.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a very broad definition of what makes a hot mess tribe.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's something we're going to talk about today.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I have cut out a selection of 20 tribes across Survivor history

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: that we are going to be put into a tier list that is evaluated later on.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But let's do sort of like a quick around the horn

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and get a general view of the criteria we're each kind of walking in with.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Shannon, do you have a sense as to how you're going to be adjudicating

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_04]: what hot mess tribes beat out other ones?

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought we were going to come up with that collectively.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it is tough.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We all have to have the same criteria, right?

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise this will be a hot mess.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Would that not be appropriate?

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like to me this podcast is just testing for Mary if we are less or more painful.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: If like two hours with us is less more painful than eight and a half hours with a ball on your head.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it wasn't.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like $150.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's I think a good barometer.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I feel like it's hard because a lot of the great hot mess tribes have success.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: They have a winner.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They might make it to the end.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Some completely flame out.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: What's more hot messier?

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you a better hot mess tribe if you don't make it to the end at all?

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you a better hot mess tribe if you have success?

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Mary, tell me what I think.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that like keeping in mind some of the stats from the situation helps.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you have a tribe where let's just theoretically say theoretically that like 95% of your tribe doesn't make the merge.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like that's kind of a hot mess and a good thing to count for.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there is a difference between a hot mess tribe and just a very losing tribe.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Hot mess versus hot acute mess.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because part of it is like they have you can be good.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You can have a good well-placing tribe, but they don't get along and it's like, okay, they work together in challenges, but nowhere else.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a lot of tribes like that that are fun.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think sometimes a hot mess tribe is just you know it when you see it.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you're having discussions about coming to kill someone in their shitty apartment kind of a hot mess situation.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think sometimes, you know, when you see it and I think that there will be at least a few that if we're like, hmm, I don't really remember this tribe probably low on the hot mess scale.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a really good criteria.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew we'd work it out on the podcast because I do think we don't want to just be ranking the worst tribes in order of how bad they are.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because that would be a different thing.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think yeah, iconicness big one.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and then we'll think of more.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a genesis.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_04]: A hot mess tribe that when you see it, you see it.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And yes, suffice to say we're going to run the game in here.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the entire purpose of the list.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe they're not always going to be bangers, but that is the fact of the matter when it comes to this type of experiment.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just dive in.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Shall we now listen?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: We have a long storied history of hot mess tribes across survivor.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But let's arguably start with one of the first.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Pagong.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is an interesting one because again, the waters were very much untested in Survivor Borneo and Pagong was the one that despite beating the rafting Queen Kelly in one challenge were the ones that were kind of typically lazing about in the water.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_04]: While the taggies are riding around on jet skis strategically, they were sitting in tubes drifting down the lazy river.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And as a result capsized.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I think really where the hot mess element comes in is of course the post merge portion where the taggy for in particular are able to get a leg up.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, the infamous four to one to one to one to one to one vote and then subsequently never really getting on the same page to allow them all to get taken out.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So before we get into the ranking and rating proper Shannon any spare thoughts about Pagong?

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that the tribes should gain points in the tier list if they become a verb.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the fact that it's like so historic decades on where we say like it's a Pagonging.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty bad.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that legacy is very unfortunate.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: There's probably only one other tribe or I guess like the intentional massing that's going to be important.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think is a bit of a thing.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But Pagonging that's like really in the dictionary of survivor for being completely destroyed post merge, which was really on them.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You know they were like, I mean, I guess maybe because there wasn't a blueprint, but some of it should have been pretty common sense.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that what was happening like right in front of their eyes.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So for me, they'll probably be up pretty high because by the one criteria I already have, which is their iconic.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And do we have more criteria?

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They're memorable.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's pretty similar to iconic.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Does anyone have any more?

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think some of it is I'm trying to think of how to quantify this is you're really a numbers person.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_04]: You're freaking Shannon's language, which I love.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think some of it is how like goofy is not exactly the right word, but how much were they?

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Were they fighting and arguing?

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: How well did they get along?

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say when it comes to Pagong, like they they were OK.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They had a core.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They had some some ability to stick together, but they did not have that strategic mindset to go through the game.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were kind of all these moving pieces kind of being a little more laissez faire, which made to their credit.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't know that the other tribe was going to lock up and form alliances.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Once it was clearly happening in front of their faces, I think at that point.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, obvious.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Like before and OK, they didn't invent it first.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And it seems obvious to us now, but was difficult at the time.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like they should have known once it was clearly happening.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it has to be mentioned that, you know, the first five votes of the season or really could count the first six went back and forth.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Taghi Pagong, Taghi Pagong.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we have five more Pagongs in a row after that that other one.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The highest placement a Pagong member gets is sixth.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So the only person to chart on the box office so far from Pagong as well.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Should that be factored into this conversation, Mike?

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it should. Maybe how memorable each player is because how much are we looking at it individually?

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I feel like most people could name like every member of Pagong.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, let's let's move this over as we get into the tier list as well.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So just to remind people what we're working with again, this is something that I craved from when we did this without without play out list.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We have four tiers that we're working with top of the line worth playing for the best of the best, the hottest messes of the hottest mess.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Next here, my life is fine.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty good to OK on the messiness scale.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Next here down a no Hershey bar.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's OK. It's fine to maybe not so great.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And then finally, that bottom wretched tear.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Forget you go home.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Goodbye to present perhaps represent one of the hot messiest seasons in the form of Gabon.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I would at least put Pagong like my starting bid on Pagong would be in either my life is fine or like a low end worth playing for.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. OK, sorry. Just to recap this messiest is going up top.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's very hard. Yes, because it's confusing.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They gave no. It's we love negative qualities of a game that they gain points.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So they gain points for bad things and they lose points to good things.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, oh, they kind of got on. Now you lose points.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. That's a little too kumbaya. That's going to knock you down, baby.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I want it low on worth playing for at the moment because I feel like they set the blueprint for hot mess tribes.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They they they're like they're all ancestors.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. Their bones are turning to dust as they hear this.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Well, anyway, let's put them in for me.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We're playing for that one.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I could see it either being a very, very low worth playing for or the very top of my life is fine only because I think that we've got some other ones where just the personalities are a little more kooky.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: These people, I give them they they're lowered down based on the fact that they get sort of a pass for being the first season and not really knowing what they should have been doing.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Once once we get into, you know, the further seasons and they at least know what they should be doing in the game.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when they got no more credit.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. So another criteria is so getting on, which they kind of do.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not getting on is the criteria and then failing spectacularly, I think, should probably be up there.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And they did. Yeah, it is one of the more like iconic downfalls of a group will certainly talk about that.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_04]: There are some tribes that are a little less memorable despite the fact that maybe statistically or narratively there, their tribe ended up falling apart.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But going is probably the strongest from a story perspective out of this entire group, considering that there was no pulling up out of the nose dive.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Once they were done, they were pretty much done all in a row.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll see how far that carries it. But for right now, it's going to be in at the top tier.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go from old school to a little more new school, not new era.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is a really interesting case because we have technically two tribes we could feasibly talk about here.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to survivor edge of extinction.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we have Manu, which is the David Wright, Kelly Wentworth, Reem Rick Devons, Chris, Chris, et cetera, tribe.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And then that ends up winnowing down at the swap to Lesu, which was five people from Manu.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So out of all this chaos where they go to tribal council in the first three episodes, they're granted this momentary respite of great.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a swap. There's brand new faces.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Nope. We still have maybe some of the five of the most chaotic people in this group remaining on the same beach together.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Mary, give me your thoughts about the nine some turn five some in these two tribes.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this one's interesting because I would say if you know, sight unseen when I was thinking up hot mess tribes, this one did not come to mind.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you look at the picture and you remember the people, wow, wow.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I mean, it's such off to such a great start with with Reem, obviously can't can't forget Wendy as well.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd say that I'd even lean a little bit more towards it being a hot mess towards the beginning.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, oh, we've got war dog, too.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, what is what is messier than someone getting voted out in early in the game only to win?

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So I would tell you one thing, Messier, someone who gets voted out only after them only to come back and nearly win and get defeated by the guy who won.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Also got voted out. Yeah, that. Yeah, this is interesting.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I have a really hard time with memorability on this one because it's not it's not one that's going to pop instantly for me, but I'd probably put it in maybe that second tier just just looking at the people in it.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah. I hadn't like immediately thought of it either, but this is why you're the foremost survivor expert, Mike, because when you look at it, a couple of things stand out.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Firstly, the portmanteau of the names is Messier speaks for itself.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: True. Very good. It was destined.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a few really funny things here. Yes, the fact that the winner played whatever a few days and is on this tribe, the fact that they couldn't get away from it and they were like so excited to and then they swapped into the exact same iteration.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I remember always saying that Devons was like anti swap screwed because he assumed that he would get out of this situation.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the votes were fine. He was kind of like tribe gerrymandered instead, but they just kind of redrew the districts where it was now only the five of them.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what everyone loves at this time in the morning. Political jokes.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Explain gerrymandering to me. No. So and like look, Big Wendy, Keith Ream. It's all kinds of their war dog.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it's not that memorable, but it is a funny story when you think about it.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a weird thing because the narrative of Edge of Extinction is so all over the place.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But like also remember there was a period of time in the middle of this game where everyone who was left on Manu like moving into the swap tribe or the merge tribe all went after each other.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_04]: There's that odd series of events where like Kelly goes then David goes then war dog goes because they're all targeting each other.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_04]: You know they were going after Rick and David towards the beginning as well.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So it also wasn't even a thing where okay, they went through the trenches.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But once they reach the merge, they all solidify and move forward like some other tribes were going to talk about.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They kind of just kept at it throughout to the point where we have Manu on Manu violence as they went mano on mano in the form of Chris and Rick against each other.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet we get the winner, but also we get the winner in this way.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if it should win or lose points because again my brain is broken on this.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But because it's from Edge of Extinction, should it lose points?

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's Edge of Extinction, should it gain points?

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Because what is a bigger hot mess than Edge of Extinction just as a concept and as a season?

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to remember, refresh my memory.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: How well did any individual people get along?

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I feel like you had Kelly and Lauren and you had Rick and the other guys.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean there was, I mean they were.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Literally the two people in this tribe who I have family members with the same name and I couldn't think of it.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you were going to be like the returnee.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, also that.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: There's been a lot of people in this tribe.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that would be the one that would escape me from Edge of Extinction.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Well no they were, I mean they were targeting each other pretty much from the beginning.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there was an attempted coup on the returnees.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And there was even that point during the Pilots and Passengers Tribal Council where Kelly and David are like, let's put our guns down.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: We're targeting each other right now.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Again they never felt like a truly unified block.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Now there was certainly not as much negativity as some of the other tribes will get into.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But there was certainly some tension I would say between all these various factions.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well also when you compare it to the other tribe that had the whole kumaya aspect, I feel like.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Kamabaya.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: By comparison it was not as much of a love tribe.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so I would probably put it right now in my life is fine.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I think memorability on paper would knock it down to Aino Hirshivar.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But I do think if you take a little bit more of a microscopic look at it that there are a lot of messy things in there to put it in that tier.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a fine wine.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I don't know if that's true.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really drink wine.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But do you know what it has?

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It has the factor.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, that was funny.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That is interesting.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like all the details are there.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: They wouldn't have come to mind immediately.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like a niche pick where you think wow they did get a winner and an almost winner.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Who both got voted out.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of impressive.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of messy.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of messu which would be their portmanteau.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's up there.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's up there in my life is fine.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're good with that Mary?

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good with that.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Well let us move into our first of many new era hot mess tribes because we're going with three tribes every season and it sometimes becomes a habit that one tribe just keeps on losing.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And for Survivor 41, that was Oua.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That was the Green tribe.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This was the Ricard and Shan tribe.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_04]: JD, Brad, Jeannie, Sarah.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04]: A group that wins I believe what like one immunity challenge technically throughout the entirety of its run and then ends up kind of emerging with a pseudo-mat-sing pair in Shan and Ricard who unfortunately do not replicate their success.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah they do.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're not messing.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I also can we just point out Minos in the chat who says I love moments like this where I get to learn about seasons I will never watch when we talk about Edge of Extinction.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Minos, watch this season!

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: No, this was about Edge of Extinction.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't watch it.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It could have been an email.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Watch the finale.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all that mattered.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And also the messu apparently, the combined name that I'm now using were apparently really fun and interesting but don't make that you know don't think that that's what the season really was because anyway what was it?

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Well when it comes to you know I talked about this actually on the Wishlist podcast series that I think 45 and 46 are the new hotness that I wonder how you know we all look back upon 41 that they were the ones that kind of ended up being the progenitor of this new era curse of one tribe just basically falling apart.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Mary, now that we're a few years removed from Survivor 41 do you think that helps or hurts the reputation?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think that just going back like in the Survivor Wishlist I thought so fondly on so many of the people from this tribe and it's like you know at some point things become almost nostalgic and while I don't think we have nostalgia for season 41 yet I think that when it comes to thinking back on hot mesh tribes time can only help you.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah I mean it's hard to argue with the stats so we've got Ricard here with the furthest placement at fifth on this season from the Uwa tribe.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Also like they have the best of both being like a very losing tribe losing so many of the early challenges also just so many wild moves like the JD vote I'll never forget about you know you've got

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Brad here who's a kooky character.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He gets blindsided like not unlocking his idol but still having it in his pocket but also having an extra vote that he couldn't use.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: He could sort of not vote.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_04]: He couldn't vote no.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: He couldn't vote but he had an extra vote and an idol that wasn't activated and that really summed up where we were three episodes into the new era of Survivor.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And JD himself was also voted out with the vote steal or no he gave it to Shan to use later on.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and then of course you know everything that the friends to enemies with with Shannon Ricard I feel like was so interesting.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Jeannie was such a great character.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lot here actually and I think like it's hard not to compare.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're doing here.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We're ranking we're comparing.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: This to the previous one we just talked about in Edge of Extinction.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like maybe it's because it's a smaller tribe.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like just as much if not more mess happened on this tribe with you know two thirds of the people.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh that's efficient.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah you're able to cram nine nine people's worth of mess into six people.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and Sarah didn't do anything what did she do wrong.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like there's a couple of things here.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: The first one being Mike you said that it started kind of like the curse of these like New Era disaster tribes.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a curse when production is putting them on the bad beach and they take you away.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a self appointed curse.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: They gave him the poison apple.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it's just like you know throwing like a marble in front of someone so they trip and then being like well it was fate like lead curse of New Era disaster tribes which there are so good to be so many in this tier list because again it is like a seasonal thing.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you try to say that they were kind of like you know the match seeing in Malcolm and Denise.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Were they because Malcolm and Denise both made the finale one of them won as we're saying neither.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You know the highest placing of this Malcolm Denise pair didn't make it as much as far as like the losing is of that pair is early in the morning.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_04]: The question is does that make them messier.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And not even just exactly is that good or bad because also not only that but like Malcolm and Denise were locked in you know like they were a really good duo.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: They dominate through the game like that's the pair as we were saying like intentional match seeing for ages because of Malcolm and Denise like do that do that.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Shannon Ricard came along fighting about who should have the advantage eventually blindsided each other and we're like I don't think we meant intentionally match things like that.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this is the job.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that the other the other side of intentionally match singing which is that sometimes it doesn't go so well.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So again is that point or not what would be better that they did really well they did really poorly I don't know.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: All right well let's put our noses to the grindstone here and think about where we want to put UWAI now that we're starting to really compare these groups against each other you know all being treated this is our first new era tribe as Shannon said there's going to be many that come before or after them.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So the question is is this the barometer or are we already sort of mentally comparing this to other hot mess tribes that would probably stand out more from a new era perspective.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think like every other new era disaster tribe is better.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I feel like this was more of a disaster trap I think that this is higher than Messou in my life is fine.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I put it lower.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it just like it was less winning than Matt Singh.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a poor man's Matt Singh but should that be better?

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm gonna have to be able to make one more win than Matt Singh so I guess that counts.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah but like as a tribe even the pair couldn't get along they got down to two people and those people were feuding and to this day right like we're a Shannon Ricard now I feel like that didn't end well.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Wait so hold on do you think this is higher or lower?

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You started saying they were lower and now you've.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I honestly think that this was like let's wake you up get you on here at 8am and then have you backwards think all of this and my brain is broken Mary.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you have to go a little bit with gut and I feel like in the moment watching this season I feel like there were so many things that happened that I can look at the picture of Messou and be like wow there were some wild people on that.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like when you look at both the stats and just thinking about I cannot remember these tribes.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like they were messy.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so maybe it's the color coordination in me.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I would definitely put it in my life is fine and at this moment I think I would put it above.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm with ya.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is where memorability comes in as well.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that Messou could be this like criterion collection undiscovered movie that is showing on TMC one night and you're like oh actually I didn't realize how good this was.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I said.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so but I think that does have I think while Manu and Lesu actually did target each other post-merch it was not nearly as iconic as the Shannon Rickard turning on each other which again does feel like Bizarro Malcolm Diniz.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it was exceptional television that like they got so far together and like this was going to be the duo and then it just didn't go that way at all.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I do feel like for me the one thing that could take away from it is like at the time I was like oh this is such a disaster tribe.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But then when it started happening every season and you did realize that it was just like a very big part of this format it was like oh okay.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's not like so original to them.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's gonna happen every twice a year.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna do that twice a year.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I might put a bit lower but you guys win and that's why we have three people on these podcasts.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Majority rules.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So that it doesn't just get stuck in an endless loop.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: MTV's official challenge podcast is back for another season.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right the challenge is about to embark on its monumental 40th season y'all and we are coming along for the ride.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Woohoo!

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be me Devyn Simone.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's me Devon Rogers.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're here to take you behind the scenes of the challenge 40 battle of the eras.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Join us as we break down each episode interview challengers and take you behind the scenes of this iconic season.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well Shannon I feel like unfortunately you may have felt your argument was defanged.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But let's put a little bit of fang back in there as we talk about Fong.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Our next hot mess tribe.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Now this is interesting with some of these we're talking about like specific iterations of the tribe.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I went with like the OG draft Fong that was able to win a couple of challenges which maybe might work against it.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But certainly if you remember the like previously on Survivor when Jeff was narrating he would have painted them as like an absolute atom bomb in the game.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: That they were disasters and challenges.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_04]: That they had all these older weak people that they couldn't find a leader until GC was basically enlisted for it.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And then he ended up running away during one portion of it.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_04]: But what do you think Mary?

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Looking back how does Fong seem to be messy to you?

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh I mean this is this is one of the first ones that comes to mind for me when I hear just the concept of being a hot mess tribe.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you have you have someone trying to row away to not go to a challenge.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You have instant fighting.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean look at this. Look at this cast.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got elephant dung up in here.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got people trying to eat ants in order to impress each other.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many so many gifts and screams and fighting.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean crystal. Look at the tribe.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Look at the tribe.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This is this is amazing.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd say that Fong is this is very high for me.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: What's interesting about Fong looking at the stats and it does get confusing because there are multiple iterations like you mentioned.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't do terrible overall.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got Suzy in second place here.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But we've also got you know Crystal Kenny and Maddie are all what?

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Six five four.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Six five four.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah because basically due to the multiple swaps the Fongs are able to recruit Sugar to their side.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And while Randy does defect that's when they take the lead and the merge and run the table for a bit of time until Bob goes on his rod and then they kind of start going after each other.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The one thing that's funny looking at this cast is if you had asked me I'm not you know I've got some survivor memory but I would have sworn that Sugar was on this tribe to begin with and that she represents Fong a lot more than Koda.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of Randy as being like a very reluctant person.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like I'm I'm surprised he's not standing two feet away in this picture being like I don't want to be part of us.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: No they're like even better.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like look Crystal's arm is around him.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: How did he stand on GC but he looks so unhappy about it.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like Crystal saw an effort.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You know someone said get in there.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't want to be in this picture.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And I wonder how soon this was after Randy's head trauma as well that he's like I know I'm going to be here.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually amazing because no one else in the photo is touching each other but he is being touched and is touching G.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like he would hate that the most.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But like why is he in this position?

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Why is this happening?

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Is Michelle wearing someone else's jacket?

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's no way that she came in with that.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_04]: This looks like the jacket of the late Dan Kay I would imagine because she was also like a boxer and they didn't necessarily send her in wearing her best business casual.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Why does Randy look like he's like in like an old war photo?

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you can tell he's like seeing some stuff and he's like but no one else is bringing that energy.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Except like he and Crystal and GC look like they're in a completely different photo from everyone else.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what is happening?

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It helps too.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The Gabon is known as like a hot mess season.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like this is just one of those seasons.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my counter point.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think if you if you look at the two tribes like there are some people in the other tribe there are some things that happen.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But most of the hot mess things that happen with the Kota tribe are after they've done some swapping around and have some pong members on there.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean I put this one very high in my opinion.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: My criticism is what you just said, which is Gabon if we were ranking hot mess seasons, Gabon's number one.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Does this tribe stand out?

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: As you said you couldn't even remember that Sugar wasn't on it.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: There are going to be swaps pretty early on that I think define the season more.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Does this iteration of these plays specifically stick out as this tribe?

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Even if people within this iteration are going to fight through the season and are iconic in their own right as characters, as feuds.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Does this iteration of this tribe really stick out?

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Shannon, we got in a boat and was trying to run away.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I hear that.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the thing.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I think there are like this isn't just mess.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_04]: This is its own special breed of mess.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the tribe that brings you eat your rice.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the one that is obviously also if you talk about like does post-merge conflict boil over?

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_04]: This is going to lead to the aforementioned forget you go home goodbye where there is a lot of tension on the tier list, which means that it should be the opposite of forget you go home goodbye because that's how we're thinking of things.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I do think it's worth playing for.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_04]: The question is right now before or after Pagong.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would have it after because I just think that Pagong is so certified as a tribe in saying that every single time that my like season watch list comes out and the bond is not high on it.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I get so many drive bys that I'm just like what's happening out there?

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want that to happen to me here, so I want to be outvoted.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I want everyone to remember that I was very high on this being the highest possible drive.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think my problem is I already feel like Pagong is too high and I understand that you get the name like Pagonging and everything, but I think of a Pagonging more as like you have one tribe that has their ish together more so than that Pagong didn't.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That spectacularly fails.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I just I think they lose so many points for me from being so early on that you really couldn't have expected them to do better.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think most people watching the first season of Survivor having no context for anything else about Survivor would have thought, wow, look at the Tagu tribe getting together and they would have gone, yeah, but they should be playing like Pagong.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's only in retrospect that you realize how badly Pagong did it.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You're less residential than I am because I feel like had I been watching at the time and had been an adult, I would have been like those idiots.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I've ever seen a better out of context quote for this podcast than Tommy Tomato saying Shannon is too pock confirmed.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, I think it speaks for itself.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I am going to once again agree with Mary here.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I am going to slide it above Pagong just because to me, I think personality hot mess wins out over strategic.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's already where I'm not at.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be an issue.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_04]: This is interesting.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: This is where I did bring the stats, but what I think is for me, what's interesting about the stats is I just I don't think that this is only about the losingist.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So for me, a hot mess tribe where it's where they're going very back and forth, where they're where they're voting out their own people once they've merged and stuff to me.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That is so much more of a hot mess than just someone who like loses a bunch of early challenges.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Possibly it should have been higher because you're talking about it.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They do have both.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I don't know.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_04]: We can always ship these around.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I've got some double trouble for you as we're doing back to back Randy Bailey season.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This is one I want to bring up for discussion here.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about the villains from Heroes versus Villains.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_04]: This is an interesting one.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_04]: This is going to be the first I think of a few we're going to talk about where if you look at the stats, if you look at the record, it's not necessarily there.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I go to see when is there first and fourth on this tribe and they won just as many challenges as the heroes like they were actually pretty in lockstep.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you look at from an interpersonal perspective, once we get to that Tyson vote, it really falls apart where we have this minority vote out.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Then we have coach and Jerry flipping on Rob and then they end up flipping back to take out coach.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So from a conflict perspective, they obviously are at odds by the end of the merge.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But it then does culminate to them joining up together.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what's tricky for me is I feel like the villains tribe.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think of it as a hot mess tribe.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of it as a divided tribe, which I think is different.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that we have two relatively loyal warring factions.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Forget the Tyson thing for a moment.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But other than that, like it isn't an iconic tribe with a lot of really great players and some great moves.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think you've just got like a Russell side and then a Robin Tyson side or you can even put Sandra, you know, as the leader on that side.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, they went after each other.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't get along.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think for me, a hot mess is more of a whole collective group of people that are all firing at each other and all being wild.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this isn't a collective effort.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the Russell factor.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, it's like it is like the Rob versus Russell teams.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then also Russell's team will make it very far and be like the world.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Sandra's there as the winner.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But like that's the winning group.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And Sandra wasn't really on Russell side.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But Russell side then will disintegrate because Russell will vote out Danielle out of jealousy.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he and poverty are in like a very scary, toxic relationship.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not like that went so well as well.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But in saying that, I don't really think of the villains as a hot mess tribe.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It will feel weird to put probably the most iconic tribe of all time in a low tier.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's the fun of what we're doing that it's opposite to what you think.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially I think that when you compare them with the heroes tribe, in some ways, the heroes tribe is more of a hot mess tribe.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It really is more interpersonal fighting.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They have was crossing in the night like strategic issues.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, heroes started off, you know, absolutely yelling at each other and you have some very divided dynamics.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But once Tom goes and Colby kind of gets absorbed into everything when James gets taken out, then it goes really well for them.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. I mean, for the rest of the pre merge, it does the point where they're all unified and deciding to write a letter to Russell.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: They're all unified in their stupidity.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, you could actually think the heroes are the ones who give the idol to the villains.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The villains were getting a lot done.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you look at success, which again, are points not in their favor in this criteria, as we're saying, the whole final four, they get the idol from the heroes.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: They have like one of the biggest successes in Survivor history at the merge by winning that war.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And on the individual stats, they've all done pretty well in the game before, during or after.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a good question.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Like legacy as well.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Like does it help or hurt a hot mess tribes legacy if it then breeds some survivor legends from it?

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, I think we're all kind of saying the same thing.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But like this tribe, they were they were they had a split tribe, but they were winning under under Rob's kind of leadership in the beginning.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a big messy thing that happened in the middle of the pre merge there with Tyson.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that, it was kind of like, all right, now we're just unified on the Russell side.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't yeah, I don't think this is particularly hot, hot messy.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you put it?

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I just Tyson, like the big messy thing that happened.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: That should be the title of that episode.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Just going over the big messy thing that happened.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would put this, I think you forget you go home.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Goodbye.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is sad.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This was the first bus I ever got the villains tribe, the most iconic tribe.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But as a hot mess, they actually did do a lot even within all the fighting.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They got so much done with so much success.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We get the winner and yeah.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of them, I think still probably really like each other.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the Rob and Sandra, that's going to play on years down the track.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And to be fair, poverty and Sandra only recently made up with each other.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a long time there.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably and Sandra like to get still on winners at war.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: There was the mess there.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I personally would put this in a no Hershey bar, but I won't.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I will not have any qualms with matching it up with the red.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, this is a complete side note, but now I'm curious.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: What was the first buff you got, Mike?

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The first buff I got was a Drake buff.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I got a Kendrick buff right afterwards.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: What?

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I got I got a Drake buff from Pearl Islands back in 2003.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, what tribe is that?

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You're a two-part, Shannon.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You should know.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Mary, what was the first buff you ever got?

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think mine was the Merge tribe buff from Vanuatu.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Alinta.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that was the first one I had.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Good color. Good color.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I know it was orange.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: When did you get that?

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: My dad went to a live audition and they were like giving them out at the live auditions back in the day.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So you audition for Survivor.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't get rid of them quick enough now.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, let's move on here to our next group.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We're actually going to keep sticking with red and your dad auditioned for survival.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Long time ago.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That was it.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a good audition.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I still have it.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I watch it.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I will pay money.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I will pay money.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So no, I don't even know your dad and I still want to watch it.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: My dad auditioned for the Amazing Race with my cousin and that was a pretty funny audition.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They just started not casting them.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of my favorite ideas to go back and remake my dad's audition just shot for shot.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's incredible.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people like years later do like the baby photos recreated as birthday presents.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You should do that incredible birthday present troll.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a great idea.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me write this down.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Shannon.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's interesting that you're both talking about loved ones participating in auditions for reality TV shows.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_04]: You get this hot mess back on track because the next group we're talking about are the loved ones from Survivor Blood versus Water.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_04]: This is another bit of a forgotten gem.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So this is Todd Hanna.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So these were the loved ones again.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Remember, the returnees were all on one tribe.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_04]: The loved ones were on another.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And again, we might forget because there's a couple big things we remember from Blood versus Water.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But this was a pretty disastrous group.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, if Boston Robb was the one that was leading a Fractured Villains to success,

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Brad Culpepper was basically his opposite in that he was trying to rally them under his leadership.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_04]: But even he was flipping.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_04]: They get rid of Marissa because of what happened with Jervis in the first challenge.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Then they flip to get rid of Rachel.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Then they flip again to take out John Cody because they fear that he might have the idol.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we have that whole chaotic situation where a tie vote is forced and Brad ends up going.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_04]: That being said, certainly on the more forgotten end of the tribe we're talking about.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Shannon, how does that bear weight for you?

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like there's a couple of things that are not in this tribe's favor.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The first being it's like you don't you just introduce them by saying you don't really think about it or whatever you just said a couple of seconds ago.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, you're so forgettable.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You forgot what I said.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It is so early.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you show me the initial list, I think I said, oh, they don't need to be on.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that doesn't speak well.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot there in terms of how it goes for the personalities.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, obviously, Brad Culpepper leading it and he's like the way we think about bad math now.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So from a staff perspective, that's probably not good, right?

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like anti-math.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think it's funny that ends up going with this tribe is they lose to the fact that Sierra works it out too late that she should be with them.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So then they have to go to rocks.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then that's how like the you know, the House of Cards falls because they lose it rock.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's interesting in saying that I just don't think it's that memorable when we think about hot mess tribes or disaster tribes.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this doesn't come to mind.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think, Mary?

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I'd agree.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that they they were put in such a sticky situation of being the other blood versus water season.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were already kind of off to like a rough start there.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But but yeah, all in all, let's see.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see. Todd Hanna.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, not great on placement, actually.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that I'm remembering it.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So Sierra here in fifth place with the highest placement.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But but other than that, I think they were just kind of like it's sort of like some other tribes we might mention that they just they were oh, let's let's make it so much more difficult for them to do well because we'll put all of their loved ones with any of the survivor know how in the other tribe.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And let's see how it goes. And I think it goes about as well as everyone kind of thought it would.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it feels unfair to do it to like the favorites tribe.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the fans sorry against me.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. This sort of represents I didn't put either one of the fans tribes on here, but this sort of represents them like in the incredibly unbalanced format of putting survivor alumni against people who have never played the game before.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_04]: They were they hit their expected value and challenge wins, which I think was one.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Yeah. And also, like daring to ask the question, do loved ones of returnees pick it up by osmosis?

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And we found that like, no, not really. Well, but here's the thing. If you had put loved ones of players against complete newbies. Yeah, they might do well.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that would be a better test. What an odd concept.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I like though this is like that would be like a survivor.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the show where it's like famous people's siblings.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, survivor claim to fame. That would be good.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I like this. We're pitching that actually was a summer survivor idea.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're pitching a future reality show ideas were basically a shark tank baked within a month long podcast series.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that firstly, that's literally what we've been doing.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I really think that and also I think that that is an interesting season because it's like we found out our loved ones almost as good as like the returnees.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. Our loved ones better than a regular person. Let's find out anyway.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Something for the future that that'll probably be when like in decades from now it's like so the next generation and it's just like Boston Robs kids against the Randons.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, where do we want to put this here? Are we also against sliding in and forget you go home goodbye or does it eat its way onto a no Hershey bar.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's somehow like it's maybe the worst. I get these two villains is like very memorable, but maybe the villains is memorable for a success.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So it should be last. How I mean, the villains are certainly more memorable in their messier aspects in the conflict, even post merge when they're still together.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You have said you're quite literally telling Russell that she's against him.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You have Danielle being gaslit to the extent of tears at tribal council due to her own tri-mates.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And again, I think Todd Hanna kind of burned fast and bright.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But I also wonder if the fact that they kind of delivered what we expected to with the entire concept of blood versus water meant that they don't pop as much as a hot mess try by comparison.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike, you've sold me. I think they're the worst one we've talked about so far.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: There we go.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that almost should you put them up because of that bad at this.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's to be.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that spectrum is just one giant circle to snake eating its own tail.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm help me pull.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we took a couple of trips down to the bottom, but I have full confidence that we're shooting straight up to the top.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa, here we are.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: One I was referring to when you think of hot mess tribes.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this has got to be tough.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's so many tribes you could have been referring to where someone did say I'll find you in your shitty little apartment like that could have been about five or six years.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of implicit times that was said.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think people say with your eyes, you know, I mean, I'm just like I can't not smile when looking at this group of people because I am.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you crying?

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: In comparison, in comparison to let's just say what is it?

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Lamina. I don't even remember the other time.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. It's Lamina.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me know. So boring.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we should have boring tribes.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me know. We have the top.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's fantastic.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that should be a punishment for somebody like Shannon.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Next time you lose a game, you are forced to do it to your list of boring tribes.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we got Courtney.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got Shane.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You put it this way.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You have who was known as one of the most boring winners for so long and they had an artist doesn't even pull this tribe down.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's how strong the power of because I you have Bruce, you have Bob Dog.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, come on.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't I can't just this is such a chaotic tribe.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And funnily enough, this is a tribe that is chaotic but still like relatively winning, I feel like in terms of their challenge.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They do very well.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's where I think on paper we would usually say, well, like the villains, well, they dominate in the post merge.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is where I think that Genesee Club beats it out.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That like they're just such a nuclear reactor of personalities that it doesn't matter.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And when they do go to tribal council, they vote somebody out three to two to one to one somehow.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then eventually, Suri will use pretty much this whole tribe and Terry in the three to one.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So plurality votes, which is not the criteria, but I'm putting it in there like Kassiah have so much.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So much more success than they should for how much of a hot mess they were, which is fascinating.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they hate each other, but they work together, which is strange.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you look at which is I think maybe even more iconic.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you look at each person, I mean, there's so much going on.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Shane speaks for itself.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: As you said, I'll kill you in your shitty little I'll find you is that I'll find you in your shitty little apartment.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you. Yeah.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll kill you in your shitty little whatever eat all of these things probably getting this video banned from YouTube.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Shane showing his nether regions to Suri.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that we're suri experienced another region last year and big brother.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't remind me that the nether Gorgon was that a thing?

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that was a thing.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's in the recesses of my brain as well.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Shane speaks for himself.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Bruce getting medevacked the way that he did.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Hilarious. Suri not even Suri can help this tribe.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Courtney. All of these things speak for themselves.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And then all of the fact that they still beat Lamina Lamina.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: How much did you suck that you were losing to this tribe?

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, they do very well, but it's iconic.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is top of the list for me.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't really see any argument against putting it above falling in Pugong for now.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the bigger question is going to be will remain at the top by the end of this.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think what's great is like when you compare this to Fong, for example,

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: it's got a lot of the same messiness that that Fong does, but the characters are a little more likeable overall.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So it just makes it makes you smile and talk about how messy you are instead of rolling your eyes and talking.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's more memorable. I think you go to Kasaya first.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, absolutely. Well, let's stick on the note of purple and let's move on to a purple tribe that exists in the new era.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk a Tika here.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm talking I mean, this is sort of for me, it made me a bit of a mashup of the quote unquote old and new Tika, which basically swaps out Carson for Josh.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is a group that has an OK track record.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they do win two immunity challenges, but you have, you know, all of the personality clashes going on even between Jam Jam and Carolyn.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, Carolyn utilizing Josh's idle play to get rid of Sarah.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_04]: You have her tricking Sarah. You have Bruce getting medevac within 11 hours and leaving them down a person from the get go here.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, the big question is, Mary, is this one that has helped or hurt by the fact that the Tika three will rise from the ashes of this tribe and become one of the most powerful alliances in the new era?

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think what's tricky is this is a situation we're going to talk about a lot, which is you've got some messy people.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But does that necessarily mean it's a messy tribe?

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: People are like half the tribe at least.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess what I'd say is like when you have.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that Carson's super messy, but like when you have Carolyn and Jam Jam being such iconic, messy players to some extent, but they're doing well and they are aligned with each other for a lot of it.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, I don't know. I go back and forth.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Although I am looking at Bruce now. I did forget about Bruce.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I know.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_04]: But the question is like, does now seeing what Bruce did on 45.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it does. I think made me look at it a little differently of like, oh, there was even more mess potential.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Because for like a whole season we had like Bruce would have like brought them all together.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: He seemed like such like the clear like leader father figure type.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: He would have really normalized this whole situation.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We thought how stable he was going to be.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when we saw 45, we were like, oh, OK.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So you are a Tika.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that like the how long that punch line took is funny in and of itself.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because the Tika three are so dominant.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But when we talk about like Shannon Ricard on UWA and we will talk about Malcolm and Denise on Matt Singh, they were both.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like Malcolm and Denise dominated.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: UWA fought and they fought while dominating like Tika did that.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that parts of that are impressive.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they certainly do very, very well, exceptionally well to the like embarrassment of pretty much everyone else on this season.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're so messy while doing it.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But is it just is it just Carolyn and Jam Jam?

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. That's the thing.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, are we judging everything with because with no offense to Helen and Sarah, considerably cleaner and Sarah.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so normal.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Normal fatigue.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the thing. Sarah is so clean.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_04]: She had a vacuum cleaner advantage that she ended up using where she could suck up all the advantages.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the cool machine advantage.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_04]: It's when it's more so.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_04]: The issue is where we're at in our lives.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_04]: But the question is, you know, how much does the weight of like the interpersonal conflicts between Jam Jam and Carolyn and Jam Jam and Josh to a certain extent?

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Remember, they're sort of like one two punch of a brief rivalry.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_04]: How much does that carry weight for me right now?

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm slighted to put it in.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Ain't no Hershey bar.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that what even comparing it to new era tribes is definitely the bigger hot mess.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But I also think it's like not necessarily breaking the definition like villains and Todd Hanna.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. I will say from an iconic perspective, you know, in this like new era of tribe names that are all like two to what am I saying?

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Two syllables, two syllables.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So early to syllables together.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You remember Tika.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you think of like, say one tribe from the new era, people might say Tika first.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Really?

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think people would say Lulu for I was going to say Lulu probably.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_04]: But yet or or or like if you have a name that is also the name of something else that also helps a lot.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Lame name recognition.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I will say Tika and like again, and I would really struggle to tell you the other two tribes from the season, but I could definitely do Tika every time.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I'll be able to do it in 15 years.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'll see in 15 years.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think memorability.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I probably put it in.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I probably put it like a head of head of who are really new up.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But then is that bad?

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Help.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_04]: See, I feel like 41 has more of that.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Like just compare Shannon Ricard to like yes, Jim Jim was debating getting rid of Carolyn, but they still made the final three together.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, yes, good.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And they would have gone to the and they would have gone to the final three together if Heidi hadn't won the final immunity challenge.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the other thing is from pretty much the point where it comes down to Carson Jam Jam and Carolyn, they're pretty much more or less in lockstep until basically close to the end when they're fighting to win.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they're fighting, but they're strategically working together.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's got both of them.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say it's got the mess.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not hot enough for me.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to tell me said that cold mess sounds just awful.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it does.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think you're right, though, that I would I would put it near ish to 41, but I'm not really sure.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I put it behind you then.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I can put it in front of Manu.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, come on.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just so forgettable to me, which is so sad.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's move on.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Literally as we said it, I was like, which one has mine?

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Ten minutes ago.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So true.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we talked about one hot mess blood versus water tribe.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about another one here.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Who not?

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm talking original Coke who not?

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's weird because they won three out of the first four immunity challenges should have won the fourth.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But maybe that speaks to their hot mess quality in that Drew Christie, God,

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_04]: decides to throw a challenge because he is like instinctually devoutly in belief that there is a women's alliance and he has to get rid of Kelly Wentworth right now.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That was why he did it.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_04]: He saw. Yeah, he saw the appeal in her.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But who not?

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's one of these groups where you look past the stats and there is so much messiness underneath the floorboards.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_04]: This is a group that lost their Flint tried to negotiate with Jeff to get a new one traded in a reward and successfully got one.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Then found their first one and tried to give it back because they hadn't used it.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_04]: This is a group that had to keep finding an idol, then tell people that Jeremy had it and had the two of them fighting at tribal council.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the reason why I brought this in is because Natalie Anderson quite literally says and it makes the title of an episode at their only tribal council.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_04]: We're a hot mess, Jeff.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But this tribe, I'm going to put them low because I literally did also say to Mike, I don't think they should be on the tier list.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And Michael was like, well, then you should rank them low.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And now it's happening because iconic tribe too iconic for their own good.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Two winners produced from this tribe.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Kelly Wentworth doesn't even do well will go on to be an icon like their success here.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you remember that a lot more than you remember the mess.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it is funny that they lost their Flint and then found it after they'd already gone through pains to get a flip back.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That is good. The Drew Christie stuff. He's messy in that.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that's very individual.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Keith now that speaks for itself as well.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But I still think as a tribe, I think more about the other victories than I think about their mess as a tribe for me.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Who is on the bottom? Oh, is that Julie?

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How dare you forget Julie McNeely?

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm married without granola.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it just didn't. It didn't look like her.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, who is this woman?

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it looks like Candice Cody.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so who anyone else is on the tribe except Julie, but that makes her the best for this tier list given what we're trying to do, I think.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say I agree with most of what Shannon said, although I do feel like I think that they I think they do deserve to be talked about here just based on like some of the things they do.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we got Keith now.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there was a lot that happened.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You could even say even though it's a strategic move, it's a strategic hot mess move what Natalie pulls off with for you know, forgetting to vote for the right person and stuff like there is, you know, quote unquote, forgetting.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that's the kind of thing that just works so well on this tribe.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that I'd say that they're more of a hot mess than like the villains tribe, but they're also pretty relatively low.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I even compared to Coyote.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like Coyote could possibly be more of a hot mess with everything Val was doing with the John Rocker of it all.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was really an interesting comparison as to which tribe would make it on here.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Coyote had a few pretty wild rounds.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that quite literally there were more material things that Hunapu did.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And again, I just couldn't turn away from the fact that Natalie does say they're a hot mess tribe and this is a hot mess tribes rating.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_04]: That being said, like highest I could probably go is Ain't No Hershey Bar on this.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if they're bottom tier, but they're not top half for me.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're above villains, but that's all I can give you.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're below the villains.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Really?

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they also have so much success like the villains do, but I also feel like the villains, at least like their issues are more iconic because everything the villains do is iconic.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're always going to get iconic points.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I do think the conflict on the villains is certainly more well remembered than the conflict on Hunapu, but does that come from the fact that we had what?

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Eight episodes of villains versus four episodes of Hunapu.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's important.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But the strategic hot mess where you have two battering rams going against each other.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's Visaya.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that hot mess or is that just strategically opposition?

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not sure.

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's tricky because to your point about Natalie saying that they're hot mess, I think back on the times when I have said like, oh, I'm just it's a hot mess today.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like a hot mess.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And usually what I mean is like, it's chaotic.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't get my thoughts together.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a lack of sleep.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I don't know what's up and what's down.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that's I could see that being in Hunapu more so than in the villains tribe where it's like we've just got people butting against each other.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not just like the villains.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: If that would be true and they'd be even lower if that was how it played out like Russell side wins and then like, you know, then it's a smooth sailing for the end.

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That was not what it was like with Russell side.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I would put them behind the villains, but maybe they get points because the Flynn thing was funny.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just don't think we think of them as a hot mess tribe.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think might need to break the tie on this one.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I will.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I will side with Shannon on this one.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to put them before the villain.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll put them after the villains right now.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Though our poor little Hershey bar tier got ain't no submissions in it.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So maybe we'll have to do a little bit of restructuring because we're starting to move into the villains.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the thing, the one thing that's pulling them down from being like the most losing because they're definitely a hot mess tribe.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But just like when you think of them and you hear the name, we use them a lot of times to compare the use them like 10 times today.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But but my question is, are there's there's mess early on and then there's just an inability to win.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But the inability to win does come from a lack of cohesion, which increases it as compared to some of the like more new era losing his tribes.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more like, well, you just have a lack of skill set or whatever.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You look at his tribe doesn't look like it's production based.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think the one thing that pulls them down is Malcolm and Denise and the success that they have on their even even with Denise.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You hear that?

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_04]: You're dead weight in this.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Even with Malcolm, even with Denise going to other tribal councils, she does a good job in those, you know, in that position.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like I feel like the the Zane Knight of it all, the Russell, the Roxy and Angie.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that yeah, that's four strong points for Matt saying being a hot mess though.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree to a certain extent.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, look, I love me some Philippines.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I love me some Matt Singh.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think if you look at it and again, this is why Casaya might be the unquestioned untouchable number one, not to spoil the rest of this podcast.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be tough for me is that Casaya gets it had an opposite challenge record.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: But there was so much messy drama baked into it.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That's saying like Zane brought some chaos.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think from an interpersonal perspective, this is really remembered as a messy tribe.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: If anything, from a strategic perspective, it was like Malcolm and Denise were kind of surreptitiously stirring the drink of this entire thing to the point where Russell Swann's entire boot episode is basically one long eulogy of like, well, they lost again.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And Russell Swann is definitely going.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's some fun like personality moments like Angie with the cookies and Rob speaking in tongues.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think all of that, like there's comedy as well in Casaya too.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I would say I could put this above Fong, but this is not touching Casaya for me, much like Suri did not want to touch Shane's other regions.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And I think that there is a tribe that comes after this that echoes a lot of Matt Singh that I think is actually messier.

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I think I'm with you.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm with Mike.

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's actually a toss up to me on which side of Fong it's on.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's like I'm only choosing where it goes on the other side of Casaya.

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like as a disaster tribe, this is obviously at the top.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But disaster and hot mess are different.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But to be fair, disaster is part of a hot mess.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot there.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Russell calling Jeff Lord, the fact that he like, you know, passes by the idol and it's like flashing the fact that they like, you know, a lot of the other disaster tribes get that cathartic moment.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yarn who just gets it might put it in a video side by side where it's like they finally get the win and you cry.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I cried. It was emotional.

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt Singh, like they get the slow mo and then it doesn't happen.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is so sad and kind of funny.

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, I'm going to bring it back.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing about Malcolm and Denise being good is that it also like puts two like kind of normal people in there to be the barometer of like all the insanity.

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's actually like a pretty good metric as well of just like watching it all unfold because, yeah, the other four that go home around them all have their hot mess.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's here's the question.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say if you plug in some success, they went just at any point before before it's only down to Malcolm and Denise.

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: At any point, if they had won a challenge, I think that they they work well together.

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoever's there, you know, I think Malcolm Denise, but they did it.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think but not not in challenges.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying strategically, I think Malcolm, Denise and Russell could have worked fine together if they had won and had the opportunity to their their main source.

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Of messiness was just the losing more so than the actual personality.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Zane, the fact that one of them like same as I think if we're comparing it to Kasaya, sorry, because I know I've actually decided that Kasaya.

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's I was just I think it has to be after I'm fine with that.

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think yeah, I think that's that's that's fine.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say me personally, I'd put it below Fong.

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's only because I think that Fong had both some losses and just every like they they had more not getting along.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the one thing that Matt Singh is messing.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think got along OK.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it's just that we didn't see enough because they just every episode was they lose a challenge.

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They have to vote someone out.

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they didn't get a chance to like try and work together in the same way that like I did where we get to see Shannon McCard rub each other wrong

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because they had to spend more time together.

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They had so few.

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's such a short amount of time to actually even try to work together.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Russell was more chaotic than we're remembering.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that the funny thing about Russell was like he'd been this like leader type at Galoo in Samoa.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he like came here.

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh, it was kind of like the Bruce Factor.

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh, you were crazy.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Then we remember like you kind of got like this like rose colored glasses edit because it went like, you know, that way with the guy.

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_04]: He died a hero before living long enough to see himself become the man.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, he died like a hero before he died.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But then he got brought back to life before, you know, living long enough to see himself showed as like a little bit unhinged.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the same thing.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that was funny.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they were more chaotic and unhinged that we're giving them credit for the losing is definitely the main point.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think we've referred to them so much today.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They have to be pretty high up.

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy with where it's at.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. I want to move on here because Mary, I think I was picking up what you were putting down beforehand.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it only makes sense that we turn to the other side of the slingshot outcome here and talk about Yanu, one of our most recent hot mess tribes.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And is this what you were mentioning before?

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually not. But we'll get to that.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll get to the one that I was mentioning before.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is a tribe that definitely had a lot of personal conflict within each other like they were losing.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And also, even within this majority of three, there was still a lot of disagreement there.

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Q was apparently going to get rid of Kenzie.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Kenzie and Tiffany were complaining about Q all the time.

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: That leads to obviously everything blowing apart post merge.

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think, Shannon?

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much here.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could rewatch 46 where Q seemed like a fairly stable leader at the beginning with all of the madness around him from like Jalinski and Bano and Jess.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you find out that like Q, Q was the wacky cutie all along.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that is a point in its favour.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to get a win.

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's important.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But a win to the point of I mean, like, look, and they both vote for Kenzie, Q and Tiffany.

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But like there's a lot of drama before that happens.

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Kenzie wants to vote out Tiffany and doesn't even get to vote out Tiffany, Q and the chaos with all of that.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were still arguing at the final tribal council.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: They were still bickering back and forth.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is incredible.

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the point out of their favour is like the opposite of UWA.

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: With UWA it was like, OK, you're a disaster tribe.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And now we look back and we think, OK, this is like a part of the new era that production is doing.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: With Yarny, we already knew that.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So it wore a little bit thin that it was multiple seasons in a row of the disaster tribe.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we've seen this film before, but they did it well.

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Still a great film.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm pretty high on Yarny.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm really high on there as well.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, listen, if we did a completely different list of like the iconic tribes in the new era,

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd be hard pressed not to put Yarny number one.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, I think that's a hot take.

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's a bit of a hot take.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_04]: No, but that actually makes sense.

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But there is so much character and drama baked in here.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't just Matt Singh where it was like, oh no, we're going to tribal council again.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you said, we've seen that movie before.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is a remake where the characters are all a little bit different.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Where even just watching the arc of someone like Banu, who again has like a little bit of an odd moment in the first tribal council picture.

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, hey, it's not nearly as messy as Justin Jelinski.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And then when Justin Jelinski going, it's like, oh no, he was much worse.

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't the craziest of the tribe.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was we said it was like the monster, right?

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like every time the song was voted out, then the next person would like take on all that craziness as added to their own craziness.

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just like, yeah, it was it just kept escalating.

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I mean, it is unfortunate that so much of that pre-merge is not fun.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the time you spend with Yanu, I can't say that I had a good time and I kind of want some of it back.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But that might have just been due to how long the episodes were.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm hmm.

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, Mary, what do you think?

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You haven't given your thoughts on Yanu yet.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think Yanu is great.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think Yanu is like the improvement on Uwa.

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Like because we got to see more of them get to the merge, we got to see just imagine Q not being at the merge.

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if we had lost that earlier or any one of Q, Tiffany and Kenzie and how that ended up going down.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think even when you look at things like early on, Kenzie trying to create a coalition with Banu and Jess and like how that flops.

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think that this is this tribe is I know it's recency bias.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very high for me.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, I do get a win, which is they do get a win.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They do get a win.

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I love a tribe that tries to work together, has issues and fights, tries to work together, has issues and fights.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like there were so many different arrangements of even when you just look at Q and Tiffany and Kenzie of different groups of those three that were working together, were against the other one.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to rat one of them out.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to get one of their idols out.

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's just a great tribe.

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's high for me.

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I get I'm now start we're getting to a point where it's like, does the nostalgia.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it is it warranted when you actually look at it?

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, listen, I'll put out a bit here.

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll put it above Fong.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's above.

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think I think I think it's above matching.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's just that's just me.

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I'm going to win.

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's like if we do this again, like three years from now and we look back on how, you know, memorable Janu was if there's but who knows there might be likely experienced with a lot.

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_04]: There might be tribes that even outdo Janu a couple years down the line.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: But right now, I think I think Maxing has history on its side at the moment.

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think what's hard is that like the fun part of Janu is that it turned out that they were so crazy.

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he was meant to be the stable one.

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like imagine going into the merge and then Malcolm is just completely unhinged.

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Like imagine like the craziest version of Malcolm that you can possibly find.

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was him all along.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But then that's why this is higher than that thing, because I think matching is more of a losing tribe.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But even even Kenzie, even Tiffany, even they they did wild things in a way that Malcolm and Denise didn't.

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Malcolm and Denise were they might have made a couple bad game moves along the way, but they were so much more just sort of well rounded stable players than any combination of anyone from Janu.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Because even yeah, even Kenzie had that like blue eye confessional.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Denise was more stable than Kenzie was.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You talk about the intentional messing.

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not talking about, hey, let's all fight and be wild and messy.

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you're just talking about losing challenges.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They are more losing, but they're not more of a hot mess.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm actually being convinced that I do think that like when we look at who makes it out of there and we look on a character by character basis, the fact that yeah, I don't think we can say that Banu is even the messiest of this tribe has to speak very, very well to it in this criteria.

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think I might put a second.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's say the purple also works out really nicely too.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So we can we can scooch up and we can make decisions as we keep going as well.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try to hammer through some of these other ones.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Those were a couple big ones to talk about.

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to talk about Ravu here for a second.

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Ravu is the have not tribe from Survivor Fiji.

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_04]: This is one of the tribes that Sylvia handpicked only for them to lose the first challenge, meaning they got nothing at their camp, not unlike Janu actually.

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And surprise, surprise.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_04]: They never won a challenge except for one time when a tribe gave away immunity basically to be like, no, we like our nice home.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So Ravu, this is maybe a bit like Tadhana in that.

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Like what else did you expect that one tribe that was given nothing would just continue to fester away while another tribe lived in luxury?

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like interpersonal.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there was like the Rocky versus Anthony stuff.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But Shannon, I can't really think of any other huge messy qualities just outside the fact of the conditions they were living in.

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think when you say like go go give us nothing, they don't mean like, oh no, don't actually give us nothing while the other tribe get to live like king.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's hard to blame Ravu because from my memory, even like after the swap, the weirdly strangely, the common nominator was having nothing compared to having everything weird.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Who would have thought?

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really strange how that experiment played out exactly as you would think.

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So hard to blame the tribe itself.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we say that it's based into the New Year format.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: This season said the quiet part loud in terms of that, so I don't really blame them.

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And also you have like Yao Man, you have Earl did so well.

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, this is low because I don't think it's the tribes fault.

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. What do you think, Mary?

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's similar to what you were saying.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: This reminds me of some of the things that we talked about with Tadahana where it's like they were not set up well.

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that while some of these people are kind of a hot mess, I'd put like the first swap version of Ravu as more of a hot mess.

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd agree with that.

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So I think that question mark in terms of like which version of what we've been talking about, I personally thought the first one like the second one, it's still straightforward votes where they like, yes, the rocky and lacy boots were blind sides.

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But it was still like I think the novelty of Ravu kept losing and them trying to have to deal with that time after time with these big personalities.

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_04]: That's to me what I remember is the messiest part of this group.

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So what do we have now?

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's Ravu right now is currently flying.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, before Tadahana.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I put these in a similar situation.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you don't remember exactly who was losing as much as they were losing because they...

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. So I think it should be kept near Tadahana because I think both tribes were kind of structurally messed up.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So the question is, and I think personally Tadahana had a little bit more personal drama and messiness in the blind side to put it above Ravu.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I might petition for Ravu to be at the bottom right now.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm with you on that.

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can go with that.

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not their fault.

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. Well, let's go a little old school here.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And we talked about one Boston Robb tribe, but I think it's time we talk about the original.

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And this maybe is a group that some consider the OG Hot Mess tribe.

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Mata'amu, a group of very big personalities, Robb, Sean, Peter Harky and his many holes, Hunter, of course, Patricia, Mama.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it makes one of like the biggest initial blind sides in survivor history when they choose to overthrow their leader, Hunter, in the vote right before the swap.

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Even the second version, like they win one reward challenge and one immunity challenge.

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think two reward challenges actually the entire season.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So the question is, Shin, and in comparison to all these other ones, does Mata'amu hold water here or is it as holy as Peter's vices?

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like for me, the memories of the success like the Sepia success, how they're going to eventually overthrow to like in a good way through the merge, which is very good.

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you think about a pre merge, I don't know.

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's not as iconic as a Hot Mess tribe.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm. What do you think, Mary?

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, first off, I think I'm getting too old to find this version of Boston Robb cute.

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You think that's going to happen with me and old school Ethan Zahn?

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's tough, isn't it?

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to age out of crushes.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I know.

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Can we just crystallize him in amber?

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh wait, he's married to her.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm ching.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It is hard because they like when you think about Survivor Marquesis, you think about how losing Mar'amu was, but then you also think about the row two four and how they flopped.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They have no losing easy.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so they're losing as well.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there was some wild stuff at the beginning personality wise, but you also can picture them sitting around and doing their morning show stuff together.

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, there was some happy times.

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, they were not the love tribe that was row two, but they certainly had some.

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I would even say they had more conflict with the row twos, of course, like with the whole argument between Robb and Sean and Johnny Potts and Pans at the merge.

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was more so the mess came through a the fact that they were one of these first tribes in the initial seasons that couldn't win challenges, you know, through four episodes through the first three seasons.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_04]: They traded wins back and forth.

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, Mar'amu, I think I think Ogokor did as well, but like Mar'amu lost three challenges in a row and then kept losing once the swap happens, which was something that hadn't really been done before in Survivor history.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, I don't know.

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like this is somewhere in the middle for me.

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: This might be a no Hershey bar.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe the reason we're feeling like we don't know is because it sits in the no bands that we have no tribes in.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: For more cases shouldn't be a no Snickers bar.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you can change that as a reference to the fact that they had a reward of a Snickers bar during the challenge at Survivor.

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this is a situation where it's like they were kind of losing kind of a hot mess.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you compare them to a guy, I got to start looking back at the board.

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Who is who is the last in my life is that Manu?

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my Manu was.

[01:22:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Louder with their mess, and they also lost the first three immunity challenges.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Manu had a winner that did not play the game.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they know her humor.

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's that feeling.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think that's where it is.

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's that say no Hershey bar.

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And now I actually know how it feels and that's good because I don't know when it comes up again.

[01:22:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Now you discover the taste of every single one of these flights of tears.

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And now you have a you have a nice little palette.

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I would prefer Hershey bar to a Snickers bar.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't like Snickers at all.

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, let's talk about someone who has a refined palette.

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about Coach Wade and his original tribe.

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk Timbera.

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Now Timbera is another one of these really interesting cases where they were unified.

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, they lost only two out of six immunity challenges in the pre merge.

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't include Galoo in this because they were kind of like the the progenitor of this that once the merge hit all of those kind of festering conflicts that they couldn't act upon came out to mass effect.

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They fell in love with JT, Stephen and Taj immediately blindsided Brendan.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Then they flipped over with Aaron and Sierra to get rid of Tyson.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Then they flip back to get rid of Sierra and then Debbie went and then coach went.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And as a result, they really just fell apart despite having such big numbers at the merge.

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think with Galoo, it's a lot of it is Russell like seating more than it feels like it was specifically on them.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, definitely parts of it with like Shambo.

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But that felt like Russell Timber did this to themselves.

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And part of me, I said to Mike pre like before we did this, I was going to say preseason.

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: This isn't a season.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but I said that like Jalapal possibly could be like they were the disaster tribe.

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: They were losing a lot.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But then they get to the merge and they run circles around Timber who are just like itching to work with JT especially who are itching to vote each other out.

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And like I always think about that scene because it comes up a lot in Survivor and they're like the symbol in my mind of when like if you're like a whole tribe is talking to each other and they're all lying.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But they all have to be like, yeah, no, we're voting out JT and they're all obsessed with JT.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that happens often, but I always think about it iconically with them.

[01:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I mean, it was like a race to the bottom.

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Tyson and Sierra there.

[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot there with Timber.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is also pretty iconic.

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: If only if only if only Sandy was on this tribe, it would be a slam dunk.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it says about me that if you had not showed me this picture of Timber, I would have been able to tell you exactly what every single person was wearing.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's how well I know this tribe.

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Like and that and then the tribes from Survivor All-Stars are like the only two I could probably do that for.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I do feel like this was the first season where either they really made it apparent or like we only talked about it, that they had them dress in a color scheme of their tribe.

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's because Timber was the first and so far only black pre-emerge tribe.

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: They were like, wow, they're really dressed in a lot of dark colors.

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_04]: That's coincidental.

[01:25:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And it was not.

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my gosh.

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this tribe, it's a great tribe.

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an iconic tribe.

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: How messy is it?

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's messy.

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the messiest of all time.

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: There's kind of like, as you said, like the villains, like two warring factions in a way.

[01:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Once you get to the merge, which takes away points like Coach, Debbie and Tyson.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I got a lot of fun.

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, they hate Sierra.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they hate Sierra and then Aaron's kind of by herself.

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think I would probably say like, hi, I know Hershey bar and then maybe slot or slotted somewhere in my life is fine that I think there is like this is where the narrative mess kind of weighs out.

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it still gets talked about as one of these first tribes of like, hey, just because you come in with the numbers doesn't mean you can clean house.

[01:26:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Look at what happened to Timber sometimes vote early vote often is a legitimate strategy because then you're able to like get stuff out in the votes.

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I do think that it's almost like Pagong.

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It does earn some credit there, but I'm not sure how far that gets them.

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: For me.

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm putting them right now above Manu.

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And below Tika.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going back and forth with them in Manu in that area.

[01:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the question is looking at the two tribes, does it help or hurt if you have players that are overall sort of decent players in a different season?

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And they both have some of that.

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think I think there is some some kinship there between the two.

[01:27:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. I might argue to put it above Tika because this is almost again sort of opposite outcomes and that Tika, despite all their conflict with each other, does stick through.

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas Timber, that's the very reason they fracture apart almost immediately.

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And does that make it more of a hot mess tribe by comparison?

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think maybe it does.

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They do come in with a six to three majority at the point where they're voting at the merge.

[01:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it just goes so poorly again.

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much like JT and Stephen did and Taj all did very, very well.

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But they also did a lot of that to themselves and it has coach.

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not even talking about the fact that this is like OG coach.

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They're all sitting around listening to coach's stories.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think the increasing dislike of everyone to coach and Tyson and Sierra of each other, to me, that overweighs the spats that Jam Jam and Carolyn would have without like at the end of the day.

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: They still voted together.

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_04]: You could tell that Timber legitimately did not like each other.

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the fact that Tyson has to try and coach coach.

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's next to the next season.

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but even then, like the legacy of not wearing feathers and your hair a tribal like it speaks for itself.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's open up a vat of some more even in the chat says is this ranking in terms of gameplay among hot mess tribe or just vibes?

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's vibes.

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It's mostly vibes.

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So vibes only podcast.

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about the vibe of our next tribe and open up a big vat of Vaati.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So this is our green tribe from Survivor 42.

[01:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're asking why are they a hot mess tribe, I'm just going to take you back to the first tribal council they went to where there was a four to two majority.

[01:28:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But because one of them couldn't vote because their idol was locked behind, there is such grace in the game of soccer.

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It makes me cry.

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And because another person went to Shipwell Island and risked their vote and lost it, it forced a two to tie.

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And they nearly rent to rocks until the third member of the Alliance basically was felt he was forced to vote out the fourth member of the Alliance.

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That's Vaati in a nutshell.

[01:29:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I have come to mind hugely for me.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I have the same question I had about Michelle earlier.

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Did Lydia bring this jacket?

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think she borrowed that from any lawyers.

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty sure she wore that on there, but it's an interesting wardrobe choice.

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very interesting.

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The blue pants.

[01:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you wouldn't expect anything less.

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that I don't think about 42 as having like a disaster tribe.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Statistically, it's like the most even I think from like a challenge perspective that they all kind of.

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's rare for the new era that they all kind of have their wins and losses.

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that tribal council.

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_04]: They all enter starkly even because of Jackson leaving the game.

[01:29:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They all go in four to four to four at the merge.

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But the glee that I had in that episode where Chanel loses her voice, I remember thinking like the analysis was like there were so many other ways you could have played this.

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it did not need to go that way.

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You had to do every single thing wrong to get to the point where this is happening with the almost rock draw.

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Jenny, Jenny, poor normal Jenny.

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Justice for Jenny.

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Lose to that.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So much going on with like Daniel Strunk and Mike and the idol.

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I still don't think of them as a disaster tribe, and I don't even think that I really think of them as a hot mess tribe, even though I see it now that you're saying it.

[01:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't think it before.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, what I would also counter is if we're also looking at pre merge versus post merge, we have in the Daniel Strunk travel council, Chanel throwing out a spare vote just in case of a shot in the dark play without warning Mike ahead of time, which then causes this tribe to self destruct at the merge.

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't remember this that high ends up immediately throwing his closest ally, Lydia, under the bus.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But only out of necessity with Lydia.

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Then Chanel goes.

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Then Mike turns on high eventually a couple votes later.

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Like if we're talking about this was not a group that yes, they had a couple messy tribal councils, but they stuck through at the post merge.

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_04]: This was definitely one of the most fractured groups in the post merge.

[01:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that's bringing it down to me is when I look at this season, this is my least memorable tribe out of the three, which is interesting.

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I know. And I don't know why that is.

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I just remember more key moments.

[01:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, put it this way. Everything you've mentioned.

[01:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I remember it.

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I can name another thing that happens with this tribe.

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of things that we mentioned.

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. But like, but besides their first iconic vote and the the situation with high ditching Lydia, I don't know.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't blame high for that.

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that was that's mercatory stuff.

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, they were fighting for their lives.

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I did very, very well there.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I don't think I think of them as like a hot mess.

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's more of a cold mess for me.

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It might be a no Hershey bar.

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: That might be that feeling.

[01:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is not feeling.

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is.

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's distinct how that feeling feels.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So now are you putting it above or below Mata'amu?

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think maybe below.

[01:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I've got to try and like pass between this feeling.

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I think for me, the fact that again, like the tiebreaker, I guess for me is the post merge and the fact that V and Sean stuck together like glue in the post merge.

[01:32:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And what happens to Vati in the post merge makes Vati the messier tribe for me.

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they don't vote for Mike to win.

[01:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And they and they self destruct earlier.

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, who does?

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think I think the episode three tribal council like really lifts this up.

[01:32:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that does outweigh the hunter blind side of a similar episode three wild moment.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Okay.

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I see what you're both saying now and I agree.

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Next up, let's keep sticking with the green here.

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_04]: It's time we crack open our brains and talk about Luzon.

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the one I was comparing to with Matt Singh.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: This is my challenge, Kassaya.

[01:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of synergy here between this tribe and Matt Singh.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you think of them in similar ways.

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the one where you think about like did they did they benefit in losing some of those early challenges?

[01:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think though when you compare this one just directly with Matt Singh, this is more of a hot mess.

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much here.

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the name is Luzon.

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we're going to get another Luzon and global survivor that might be messier.

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet here we are talking about this Luzon truly two of the messiest tribes of all time, both Luzon.

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Look at how happy they are in this photo.

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you can tell that this is like taking moments before disaster.

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Before disaster.

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And that must have been before the game started because disaster was so, so immediate.

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, yeah, we're friends.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We're on survivor.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just goes so badly so quickly.

[01:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a fact that they were the brains tribe.

[01:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But then like where were the brains?

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Jatiyah throwing out the rice.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything with Garrett, one of my favorite premieres, if not maybe my favorite premier of all time.

[01:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that Cass and then like Spencer against Spencer and Tasha hate each other through multiple seasons.

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's what's great about that is the high placement does not reflect the relationship among the people.

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Spencer and Cass did not get along, but both do well, which I think boost them hot mess-wise.

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's the thing.

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Matt Singh.

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Not only Matt Singh, but even like looking at it's something like Tika, right?

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Where yes, they lose early on.

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They've got some wild personalities.

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But altogether, Jam-Jam, Carolyn and Carson get along much better than Tasha, Spencer and Cass do.

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't think I think out of all of these tribes, this is far and away the biggest roller coaster of a tribe of like, oh my God, they are in a downward tailspin.

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_04]: They're, you know, getting rid of their athletically strongest guy because he's such a jerk blindsiding him with an idol in his pocket.

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, wait, they did get rid of one of their weakest challenge performers in JT.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They seem to be unified as a three.

[01:34:45] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, they swap together and it seems like they're in control of the tribe.

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wait, Cass decides to just leave them high and dry and go over to the other side.

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And Spencer declares openly she has a zero percent chance of winning the game.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, they're not getting rid of each other, but they're on opposite sides.

[01:35:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Three of them are in the final six.

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, maybe they're going to be able to join back together.

[01:35:04] [SPEAKER_04]: No, they immediately target each other again and they place in four and three.

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a one brief reprieve when they are on this combined swap.

[01:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: When they go to Alexis.

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when they go out of Alexis and they've got a little bit of power and a little bit of like, OK, we're going to cool off.

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to see what happens.

[01:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We're doing OK.

[01:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We're winning. This is fine.

[01:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then everything just falls apart again.

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is great. Love it.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: That's so fun because you get the little bit of like hope for like a really torpedo in the most epic way.

[01:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe this will be good.

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's from literally the very, very, very beginning to like from from David Sampson choosing who's going to go back to the chapter of Garrett.

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And like it implodes from the mat, from the mat.

[01:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But then it goes all the way to the end to the fact that they're going to be three of the final six hating each other the whole time.

[01:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, Spencer and Tasha are like the key duo in this that have a relationship all the way through even another season.

[01:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But even that isn't enough, I think, to counteract the chaos of this.

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The Brawns try to throw a challenge and they can't, which is always a really, really fun thing.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The name is Luzon. It has everything.

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes every single box.

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's number one for me.

[01:36:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so as well.

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I think what it has above Matt Singh is the fact that there's so much personal conflict and hatred towards each other.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_04]: What it has above Kasiya is that strategically they are not unified whatsoever.

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So win challenges.

[01:36:24] [SPEAKER_04]: To me, this is the perfect mix of what makes a hot mess tribe.

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It is a group of people that just do not see on the same page physically, strategically or socially.

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_04]: It is the perfect lab brood sixome of individuals that produces the optimal TV that we experience as survivor friends.

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Not to also mention this was, you know, Philippines have brought back the three tribe format,

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_04]: but the success of Kaga Yon is really going to usher in a lot of three tribe seasons from here on out.

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's due in part to how iconic Luzon is.

[01:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not production, manufactured like they just suck that much.

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: These are people who should never have met.

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't vote out to Tia after she throws out the rise.

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many other issues we're not even getting into.

[01:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's just it's so many things.

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me want to rewatch the season every time that I talk about it.

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But number one for me.

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. What do you think, Mary?

[01:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You agree? I agree.

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. Matt Benjamin in the chat says Tasha could have been messy if this was going to be 100 percent of the messiest possible tribe.

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I do agree. But I think that still Cass and Tasha are messy.

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's mess. Congratulations Luzon.

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You won something. There we go.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing is like when I think one thing that's fun to think about is when you think about like pick out the most stable person from the tribe,

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: which depending on your view of it could be potentially Spencer, could be Tasha on the season and then pick up the same thing on Kassia.

[01:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I think Kassia with Suri is just or even potentially Danielle or potentially ours, depending on how you look at it, is just a little bit more calm.

[01:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But they won that challenge when beauty went to.

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_04]: They did. They won that. They won the bucket tossing.

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_04]: But even then they failed at it.

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: They got a whole freaking blue denube montage dedicated to how bad they are at it.

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like this is a this is a special sauce right now that we are tossing in a bucket from person to person.

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It cannot be recreated. It was just lightning in a bottle.

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So well let's move on from a Brains tribe to a Brawn tribe here.

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to talk about the Brawn tribe from Survivor Korong Toteng.

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they tie the first vote of the season.

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, Ty wasn't on this one. Yeah, exactly.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_04]: He was on he was on the beauty tribe.

[01:38:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But this is a group that I think was largely remembered for Scott and Jason's treatment of Alicia for Sydney eventually breaking off from the group and turning on the guys in the post merge.

[01:38:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But for a wild season that was Korong, this was the wildest tribe.

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, even with the conditions, this was a tribe that had a frickin bug crawling out of somebody's ear.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, do we need to mention that part again?

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think mostly what I remember is just how mean they were to Alicia, like relentlessly mean.

[01:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that fun? Is that hot mess or is that just like one type of thing?

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, also like the Brains tribe, there was this big surprise that, OK, Brains versus Brawn versus Beauty.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_04]: You would imagine from a challenge perspective that Brawns would have at least an advantage.

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They won one single challenge the entire time they were together.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm in the chat because everyone looks so tiny with Scott and it is true.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he's kneeling and he is like basically it looks like Gandalf with the hobbits.

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you like I will never get the image of Jennifer standing up on her stool out of my mind and just how out of pocket that was for no reason.

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: She was in a perfectly fine position going into that.

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That is true.

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think Sydney does a lot to help this tribe.

[01:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Darnell probably would have had Darnell not gone home so early.

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, when you look at Jennifer, Scott, Jason and Alicia, like this is a disaster situation.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But the ten is a little bit too mean.

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So it feels less messy and more toxic.

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think if Scott and Jason is like fun, like Kassiah type.

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Although some of that, I mean, he did say he was going to kill her.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: With this and like the merged tribe of Worlds Apart as like the top toxic tribes.

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We should do that. That's fun.

[01:40:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the last podcast we want to do, sure.

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: On our final podcast.

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's see. Can we see where we stack up?

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I mean, it's tough.

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't know if I'm getting the Aino Hershey bar feeling.

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: A little bit I am.

[01:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You are?

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a little bit.

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's getting Aino Hershey bar.

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a little bit.

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel it. It's so distinct.

[01:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This one's hard for me because I agree with Shannon.

[01:40:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more mean than messy and so I don't know where to place it.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: This one's hard for me because I agree with Shannon.

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I would say that like all toxicity is mess, but not all mess is toxicity.

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's different type of drama.

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if all toxicity is mess.

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I agree.

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think to me mess is some sort of form of chaos and disorder, which I think toxicity can bring.

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I think they can be very ordered toxicity.

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Well not in the way that it was done here at least.

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not here, but I'm just trying to think about the concept of what you said.

[01:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me lowest of Aino Hershey bar, that's where my gut is now.

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Kate in the chat is right.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like Scott's a bully, which is not the same necessarily as being messy.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel.

[01:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what to do with this.

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Aino Hershey bar.

[01:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's that feeling.

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't know, that's what that is.

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a T for that.

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I know people would want to tell Scott and Jason forget you go home.

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Goodbye.

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Would that be reflected in their ranking as well?

[01:41:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know anymore.

[01:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, but see here's the thing because I agree with Shannon where you say you don't know where to put this.

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Put it in Aino Hershey bar, but then look at the Villains tribe.

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Like where, how do you?

[01:42:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I would I've been looking at this here and I would argue maybe we move villains up to Aino Hershey bar.

[01:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, and they actually did.

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the one after villains?

[01:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What is that?

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: See, the problem is the forget you go home.

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Goodbye tier is the is the tier of should this even be a word debating whether or not it even really is mess.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would be more in that tier.

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's fair.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like the villains tribe better.

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you've convinced me well argued.

[01:42:29] [SPEAKER_04]: What's what's the what's the winning argument here?

[01:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's below villain.

[01:42:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I don't know whether or not they'll live up.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because I don't even know that I consider it messy.

[01:42:38] [SPEAKER_04]: How do we feel about moving the villains up to Aino Hershey bar?

[01:42:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I don't think I don't think we're questioning them as a hot mess tribe in the way that we are these other groups.

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's let's reassess that at the end.

[01:42:50] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got a few left here.

[01:42:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go back to Survivor forty six and we'll talk about, you know, at least challenge wise, the exact opposite of Janu.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to bring up Nami here.

[01:43:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And again, this is the most dominant tribe in the new era, one of the most dominant tribes in Survivor history.

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_04]: They have a 100 percent win record.

[01:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Never even I think they play second in one challenge, but they did not hate each other.

[01:43:16] [SPEAKER_04]: They did.

[01:43:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So like this was a situation, it was almost like Timbera, like amplified to the max to Fortissimo.

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_04]: We're like as soon as they got the opportunity to vote each other, they did.

[01:43:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And how? Where we go from Nami filling out what the first three seats of the jury alone and then the last two people standing were Liz and Venus.

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, Venus being one of the furthest placing members of this tribe when she was like pretty much disliked by everybody on that beach in the first half of the game.

[01:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I mean, the fact that we have two tribes from this season, I think we did say that, you know, through compared to Seeger, I think I had the meme of like the, you know, the Dragonheads.

[01:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Dragonheads and then the like Seeger one that was just having fun.

[01:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Nami really hated each other.

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I do also feel like when I came back from my trip and I'd missed like a month of the show, my thought process was about how every tribe was failing in their own way, like sequentially.

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And Nami definitely had that through the middle of the game.

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, these people took it to Twitter. It's post show.

[01:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I don't know if we've ever seen so much dislike.

[01:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This is one of the closest comparisons I have to the feeling of watching like Gabon.

[01:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they're both there. We got hot messes all around, but on almost all tribes in both of those seasons and got some fun and some interesting characters and also some some of that like,

[01:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: ooh, they do not like each other.

[01:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm also looking at the theme of the season. Technically three of them go home with an idol in their pocket as well.

[01:44:51] [SPEAKER_04]: That feels unfit.

[01:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And also in both cases, there's a lot of questionable gameplay, like a lot of very intense gameplay, but whether or not anyone's actually doing anything that's in their best interest is questionable.

[01:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the fact that Tevin comes with Soda for literally no reason.

[01:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the fact that one of the best challenge competitors of the new era can't save them from themselves.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's Liz. You know, Liz is Liz.

[01:45:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Liz being the last like, yes, Venus being the last Nami standing would be very fitting for the story.

[01:45:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But the fact that it's Liz almost represents them even more.

[01:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's going to be interesting comparing it to Yanu.

[01:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's what I was about to ask. Where do you compare this with Yanu? Because I'm a little bit torn.

[01:45:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's a I personally think it's a tier below Yanu.

[01:45:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I just think Yanu is again this perfect formula that though I don't know, like is it like how much Pagong's really hanging its hat on that on that, you know, historical scale?

[01:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, I think Pagong is getting a y'all are giving Pagong a lot more credit than it is.

[01:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The way that because it's hard because they were first and that was also first for us.

[01:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We're working out the criteria. So because they're not as messy, I do think we could maybe bump them down and then we put Nami at the end of worth playing for.

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I would be fine with that because I do think to your point, Mary, Nami is kind of a new era of Fong and that like Fong actually did especially post swap Fong did really, really well in or actually know they didn't do well.

[01:46:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But like they were OK enough in the challenges that it didn't just feel like an absolute disaster.

[01:46:25] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way they can win anything. Nami was able to amplify that.

[01:46:28] [SPEAKER_04]: But both I think are kind of two sides of the same coin of just groups of people that do not like each other.

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Fong has a moment where they're doing the golf challenge and they are bickering with each other, standing in each other's faces while they then have to sink this like one foot putt to win the reward challenge.

[01:46:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And they do. That's Nami in a nutshell to me.

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think maybe we put them above Fong because they also like Tevin and Venus have a massive fight that didn't even make the show.

[01:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a secret scene. It was very dramatic. So there's just so much going on with Nami.

[01:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they just they never liked each other from the get go.

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I get a lot of similarity with Fong.

[01:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say that it's above Pagong for me and definitely above Uwa because still standing on that part that there are more of them that make it farther, not because they like each other.

[01:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they get to battle it out even further into the season, which is great.

[01:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm putting it above Fong.

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think, Mary?

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I could go either way. I am happy with either side.

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I will keep it below Fong for now.

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_04]: This is where the other side of the recency bias weighs out that like I'm good keeping it right next to Fong but right behind it at the moment.

[01:47:37] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[01:47:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Two left.

[01:47:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I absolutely don't agree. But okay.

[01:47:42] [SPEAKER_04]: We mentioned them before as well. They become a verb.

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Oolong.

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Now this is interesting because like this is losing us.

[01:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is losing us.

[01:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I spell Oolong without losing.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If you were to spell it.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you can, Andy. You'd probably fail at a spelling challenge, which is probably what Oolong would do as well.

[01:48:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is this was also really interesting because I mean, look at this tribe on paper.

[01:48:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They are the younger as Heidi would say they have younger, hotter bodies.

[01:48:07] [SPEAKER_04]: You would imagine that they would dominate, corrode only for them to completely fall apart.

[01:48:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And yes, they're losing challenge record is usually what we remember them for.

[01:48:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's still some like interpersonal stuff.

[01:48:18] [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that they blindside Jolanda who handpicked them in the first vote.

[01:48:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything going on with like Jeff slipping on a coconut and breaking his ankle and asking to be voted out.

[01:48:28] [SPEAKER_04]: The two to two to one tie that happens with Angie James getting blindsided.

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_04]: The first ever winnowing down to one person.

[01:48:35] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of memorability baked into this hot mess.

[01:48:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we've heard them, right?

[01:48:39] [SPEAKER_04]: We did verb them. Yeah.

[01:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So I mean, they're losing us, which again is a different criteria.

[01:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if we think of them as messy, but we definitely think of them as disaster and the spectacular failing, which I still think has to be a criteria.

[01:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, for losing us, obviously, they're they're way up there.

[01:49:01] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot of I do think they have a hot mess quality, though, because I mean, even even just Bobby John turning into a caveman at the end.

[01:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what was happening?

[01:49:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like really?

[01:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Stephanie is like the only one who kind of wasn't a hot mess.

[01:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she comes back and we realize like it's kind of the Bruce factory.

[01:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Little Bruce.

[01:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Normal person on that drive.

[01:49:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But now we see you with like other normal people.

[01:49:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, it's a lesson not to I would say Russell Swan didn't come back to back.

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's a lesson not to come back from back to back.

[01:49:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Because then you're just going to have a huge transformation from the way we initially regarded you.

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just a very interesting lesson in perspective where like one tribes normal person is another tribes not normal person.

[01:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I would put them really high.

[01:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Can we see the list?

[01:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's see the list.

[01:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I put them above fog.

[01:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be there.

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So everyone's going to hit a phone for me personally.

[01:50:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I feel like, you know, Fong Fong and Nami are now sort of paired together as like a hot mess personality wise.

[01:50:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And it didn't necessarily have that.

[01:50:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there were not there.

[01:50:15] [SPEAKER_04]: They're definitely iconic.

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I think that's really going to unlike Pagong, like they it holds up when you rewatch.

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's above Pagong if we're putting Pagong up there just for the iconicness of it, then I think it's above Pagong.

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where the limit that they're in a similar space.

[01:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not they're not higher than that saying that I think I think I'm doing that thing.

[01:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is also right about I'm good with that.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm good with putting it right here.

[01:50:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we just like to do the color matching as well.

[01:50:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. All right.

[01:50:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're definitely not sending them down the pooper like the outhouse that they built and failed to do during one of the many challenges that they lost last, but certainly not least.

[01:50:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It would not be least which would make them the most.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but it would not be a conversation about hot mess tribe without one to even though we've talked about Vati and Uwa and Tikka.

[01:51:08] [SPEAKER_04]: This was one that really stirred the conversation up again.

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Fly my Lulu's fly.

[01:51:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about that.

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They're high up there.

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They never win.

[01:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Two of them quit.

[01:51:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I do believe they win one reward challenge.

[01:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, rewards don't count.

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, they go to tribal council every time.

[01:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Think about yeah, but it was for like Pringles, which I love Pringles.

[01:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Survivor Pringles.

[01:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Survivor Pringles.

[01:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But like I feel like yeah, I feel like Karol was winning like a new shelter and then they won like Pringles.

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, for Lulu, two of them quit.

[01:51:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Sabaya the way that that went.

[01:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That was crazy.

[01:51:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the one challenge they won.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_04]: They sent Caleb as an envoy but then used that as a reason to try to target him, which ended up in Sabaya's boot with an idol in her candlelight in pocket.

[01:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, in case you're curious based on starting tribes, this tribe and the one we just talked about.

[01:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They have the lowest position.

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They both had the highest player come in seventh.

[01:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can't spell Lulu without you can't spell losing without Lulu.

[01:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.

[01:52:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you need to open a dictionary.

[01:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Can't spell at this time.

[01:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so statistically low.

[01:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: There's Lulu.

[01:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: There's Lulu losing.

[01:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: There's the fact that two of them quit and those people aren't even the way that it went with Brand and Sabaya with Emily.

[01:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: The best player here, Emily, was such a roller coaster as well.

[01:52:44] [SPEAKER_04]: As one of like the worst premiere episodes for anyone who wasn't voted out in Survivor history.

[01:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which I mean makes her iconic.

[01:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Caleb, everything that happened there like brand.

[01:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, look at this tribe like this is a great player like Caleb was holding it down to be fair.

[01:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Caleb was great.

[01:53:02] [SPEAKER_04]: But then but then they tried to get rid of him in the third episode.

[01:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[01:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that this is and Caleb also like wow, it is great for him to say, oh, I'm going to pick up Emily like maybe if he hadn't done that, if he had just said I'm rolling with you know, whoever else they voted out that time instead.

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it would have been a little more stable.

[01:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to pick up Caleb like they were losing, but they also turned on each other, but they're also individually chaotic and two of them quit a third of the tribe.

[01:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that this is this is high.

[01:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This is high.

[01:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This is very high.

[01:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like baked into the new era that should lose points and yet it even like supersedes that.

[01:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of this was on them.

[01:53:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And I understand that editing is a thing, but when you go from a viewer perspective into the first tribal council, and half of them have been talked about as people to go,

[01:53:51] [SPEAKER_04]: whether it's like Hannah struggling in the elements, Caleb for being considered, you know, like, oh, we should turn on them.

[01:53:58] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a duo going on.

[01:54:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Emily is somebody who obviously is bristling upon people from the job.

[01:54:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You can even throw Brandon in there who's really struggling in multiple ways and says, oh, I'm going to play my shot in the dark just in case people vote for me.

[01:54:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It was clear from the very beginning.

[01:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: This was a very special type of mess.

[01:54:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what the top tier is reserved for.

[01:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like it's kind of like Luzon, but not as much.

[01:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But like they do get the little win of like Caleb shot in the dark hitting.

[01:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was a big win.

[01:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But then like he immediately goes and that just speaks for where we're at with this tribe.

[01:54:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So the question is how high here because we have no even though Vati is in the third tier.

[01:54:34] [SPEAKER_04]: So we have a top five baby of Luzon, Kasaya, Yanu, Matsing, Oolong.

[01:54:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Shannon, does it breach the top five for you?

[01:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's after Kasaya for me.

[01:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I put it number one of the new era.

[01:54:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's an iconic top three.

[01:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think then we can talk about we can just slightly shift some stuff.

[01:54:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But for me, it's after Kasaya.

[01:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's to me, it's on one side or the other of Yanu and I don't know which side.

[01:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I'm sitting as well.

[01:55:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yanu gets the win in a way that Lulu just I mean, Caleb maybe but it's just right.

[01:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think Lulu is a worse tribe.

[01:55:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But is it OK?

[01:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember Yanu is the one with Kenzie.

[01:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Kenzie, Q and Kenzie.

[01:55:18] [SPEAKER_04]: It's sort of like, you know, OK, Lulu doesn't have the post-merge members turning on each other so succinctly and argumentatively as Yanu did.

[01:55:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's also because they're right.

[01:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They self-destructed earlier.

[01:55:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're above Yanu.

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's because most of the merge, the only Lulu there was Emily.

[01:55:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not just because they're so losing.

[01:55:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there was there was no need for Sean to quit.

[01:55:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Sean quit on a limb.

[01:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He let the intrusive voices win.

[01:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And like even yet, Emily, like she's ends up obviously being a great player.

[01:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But like from where we started her calling up Rus on the mat, like no one asked for her to do that.

[01:55:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think can we move Pagong down?

[01:56:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Because now looking at it, I think Pagong needs to move down into the following two.

[01:56:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's start analyzing here.

[01:56:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's make Pagong the kings and queens of my life is pine, putting them above.

[01:56:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I would still argue moving the villains up to the bottom of Ain't No Hershey bar.

[01:56:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think the messy the messiness of the villains we remember.

[01:56:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I think from a big picture side of things, it definitely pales in comparison.

[01:56:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But like, I feel like for you go home, goodbye to your point, Mary should be questioning.

[01:56:30] [SPEAKER_04]: OK, there's not a lot of mess that I remember until you really squint and take a look.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You remember how messy the villains tribe was and how much they didn't like each other at points.

[01:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Mary doesn't want to do it.

[01:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, this is this is not a hill I'm worth.

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm deciding to die on.

[01:56:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I could go either way with that because I think the one thing I have with the problem I have with villains is I feel like if you want to move up and put it in any Hershey bar,

[01:56:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to put the heroes tribe on here and they also need to be in that same spot.

[01:56:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think that the heroes saying I'll do it under the condition that I add a 21st tribe.

[01:57:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think I think my problem is that I just think that the whole season has a lot of mess and a lot of issues.

[01:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of a lot of the things that are messy about the villains tribe are instigated by the heroes tribe.

[01:57:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm breaking the tie.

[01:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't get the feeling.

[01:57:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's all about the Hershey bar feeling.

[01:57:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very distinct.

[01:57:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to keep it down.

[01:57:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget you go home.

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Goodbye. If I'm breaking this tie.

[01:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think otherwise, it looks pretty good.

[01:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like for fun.

[01:57:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I know in the chat and saying good bond and fun is mess.

[01:57:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, come on, the messiest season.

[01:57:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I just me, Fong in itself, this iteration isn't as memorable as a group because there are swaps and it's like also messy throughout.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the only reason that I was lower on it.

[01:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But yes, like super messy.

[01:57:48] [SPEAKER_02]: The entire season is like the messiest season.

[01:57:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that's not true.

[01:57:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I still think I think we've done incredibly well.

[01:57:55] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. So let me just read out the list in order from bottom to top here, starting from, in our opinion, the least hot mess, the coldest mess tribe is Ravu.

[01:58:06] [SPEAKER_04]: The have nots from Fiji.

[01:58:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Then we move up to Tadhana, the loved ones tribe from Blood vs. Water.

[01:58:12] [SPEAKER_04]: We have Hunapu, the original Drew Christie Flint losing tribe from San Juan del Sur.

[01:58:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Totaing, the brawn tribe from Korong, not Cho Chang there.

[01:58:22] [SPEAKER_04]: We have the villains tribe, perhaps controversially from Survivor Heroes vs. Villains.

[01:58:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Moving up a tier, Ain't No Hershey Bar, only a gruesome twosome occupying this slot.

[01:58:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We have Mara Amu from Marquesis and Vati from Survivor 42.

[01:58:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Moving up to My Life is Fine.

[01:58:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Starting from the bottom there, we have both Manu and Lesu because it's basically the same group from Edge of Extinction.

[01:58:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Tika from Survivor 44.

[01:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Timbera from Token Sheen.

[01:58:49] [SPEAKER_04]: We have the

[01:58:49] [SPEAKER_04]: top two tribes, Uwah from Survivor 41 and one of the OG tribes, Pagong from Borneo.

[01:58:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Finally in our top tier worth playing for from the bottom up, Nami from Survivor 46.

[01:59:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Phong from Gabon.

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Oolong from Palau.

[01:59:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Mat Singh, a similar blue losing tribe from the Philippines.

[01:59:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yanu from 46, followed by Lulu from 45.

[01:59:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Our top two are Kassiah.

[01:59:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And in first place, the Brain slash Crap for Brains tribe in Luzon.

[01:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It's good. It's a very, very good list.

[01:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The criteria was hard. It did break my brain.

[01:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But now that we're here, I think we defined it and I think it makes so much sense.

[01:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just looking forward to 47's production built disaster, Hot Mess Tribe that they create for us.

[01:59:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was fun. We did it.

[01:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so proud of us.

[01:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Mary, how are you feeling right now?

[01:59:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling great about it.

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And just one more stat, which is actually probably not that interesting when you think about the fact that most seasons had two tribes.

[01:59:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But nine of these tribes had a winner.

[01:59:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's nearly a 50 percent success rate of the hot messiest tribes.

[01:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of them also had second or third place players.

[02:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this is fun.

[02:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was great.

[02:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad we did this.

[02:00:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I liked it.

[02:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we really broke down the difference between a losing tribe, a toxic tribe and a messy tribe.

[02:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I love how you paused after you said, I think we really broke down.

[02:00:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And the debates have already started because I have already received a response from one Shane Powers tweeting me, Luzon wasn't a tribe.

[02:00:24] [SPEAKER_04]: They were a group of individuals.

[02:00:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Kasaya bonded together as a community.

[02:00:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe let me bring it up on screen.

[02:00:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe the only tribe to not flip on itself post-merge, even with all the insanity and crazy, we were dominant and held our singleness.

[02:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.

[02:00:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Your list is wrong.

[02:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to call it on the podcast.

[02:00:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Now it feels like a rite of passage has occurred for podcasters.

[02:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, wait, firstly, Shane Powers, I hate to disagree and I'm not going into this, but like the fact that you bonded together is a detriment in this list that we're ranking.

[02:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a positive thing, which makes it negative in the list.

[02:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And saying that and the fact that Shane is calling us out, I am terrified.

[02:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And that might move Kasaya up because that is messy.

[02:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think Shane's point is a reason why Luzon is messier.

[02:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: However, when you were reading all that, I'm sitting here going, wait, I was thinking Shane was Randy for a second and I was like he's not on either of those tribes.

[02:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I have my address.

[02:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[02:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my brother has started and we just have to sit with the fact that this is happening and we're just going to go back to our lives.

[02:01:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, is this not the hottest, messiest way to end a hot mess tribe tier list on Summer of Survivor?

[02:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't me.

[02:01:41] [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't.

[02:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Why?

[02:01:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I love it. Thank you.

[02:01:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Shane, for watching.

[02:01:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, I'm sure people have opinions about where these things lie.

[02:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, let your thoughts be known.

[02:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: We know that ranking is arbitrary and reductive, but happy to go through the exercise tonight with you all.

[02:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go around the hoard and plug not our home addresses, but perhaps other things that we're working on.

[02:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Mary, what are you doing?

[02:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: What am I doing?

[02:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I actually do.

[02:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I have something that is going on.

[02:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[02:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Besides like the typical Big Brother 26 nonsense that's going on, I am actually due to some people asking about it.

[02:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: First off, yes, we will be very briefly covering Love is Blind UK.

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about it.

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We will have an episode about that coming out sometime soon-ish.

[02:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing I'm doing is over on KowskiCast, keep your feed ready because in the next couple of days we will be doing a brief and quick and dirty Umbrella Academy rewatch in order to get up to date on season four.

[02:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So I haven't seen season four yet, but we will be covering one episode per season.

[02:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be happening over there.

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I love it.

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Get your feed ready.

[02:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a great way to prep people.

[02:02:56] [SPEAKER_04]: What does that mean?

[02:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[02:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Open your gullet and swallow some podcasts.

[02:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[02:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Shannon-

[02:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Shae's been tweeting for ages though because he quote tweeted as well.

[02:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, I may come into this life of this if Kowski isn't one, this entire list is bogus garbage.

[02:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That was two hours ago.

[02:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Then he said, how do I zoom in on this live?

[02:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: These dudes have it wrong and I want to state my case.

[02:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, we did not have time for either Shane or anyone from the chat to come on because of Big Brother, the hot messiest of the shows.

[02:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you should definitely respond to that, Shannon, by saying, oh, sorry, it's Big Brother.

[02:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's Big Brother time.

[02:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, we also had people from the chat.

[02:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We wanted to bring in Shane.

[02:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't have time for everything.

[02:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So, oh my God, Shane's watching this.

[02:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not hypothetical.

[02:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so sorry, Shane Powers.

[02:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I want the podcast to end and I'm sure you saw Sam is telling us we've got to go plug and get out.

[02:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[02:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I hear you.

[02:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Summer of Survivor.

[02:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's me and we'll have more stuff after that.

[02:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That will be fun.

[02:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll plug it next week.

[02:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Goodbye.

[02:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Bye, Shane.

[02:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[02:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I love Kasiah.

[02:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I love Kasiah too.

[02:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: We love Kasiah.

[02:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a tough thing.

[02:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: We had to choose between our children in this case, our hottest messiest children.

[02:03:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the thing that I will plug is next week what we're doing on Summer of Survivor,

[02:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: which is in case you don't know, the top 50 of the Survivor 50 wishlist has been released

[02:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: and we have one more round of voting.

[02:04:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So Rob has a website dot com slash vote 50.

[02:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Do what you did the first round.

[02:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Vote for the 20 people you want to see on Survivor 50.

[02:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Vote for Shane Powers.

[02:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Vote for Shane Powers.

[02:04:19] [SPEAKER_04]: There we go.

[02:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that despite the hat, I did not vote for Boston Rob.

[02:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I did vote for Shane Powers.

[02:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: There we go.

[02:04:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So be sure to put your votes in.

[02:04:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Voting is done at 12 p.m.

[02:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Eastern on Tuesday and then this time next week, Rob will be back in house as the

[02:04:34] [SPEAKER_04]: three of us will break down the results and reveal the top 20 vote getters, a.k.a.

[02:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: the fan voted cast of Survivor 50.

[02:04:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Outside of that other thing I'll plug is that the Anonymous is a new social strategy

[02:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: show airing on USA Network and a bunch of other networks as well.

[02:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's coming to Peacock on Monday.

[02:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Check out the first three episodes.

[02:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a really fun show.

[02:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Pooja and I got together to talk through our thoughts on the first three episodes,

[02:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: what we liked, what we're looking forward to.

[02:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you want to check out more coverage of that after watching the show, be sure

[02:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: to let us know.

[02:05:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Let us know your thought about this tier list as well.

[02:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: This was such a great time.

[02:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks to everybody for hanging out in the chat.

[02:05:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks to Shane for peeping in as well.

[02:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited to see what's to come next week as we reveal the voting of the

[02:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Survivor 50 wish list next week with Rob.

[02:05:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't miss it.

[02:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: 6 p.m. Eastern live.

[02:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Same bat time, same bat channel.

[02:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you all so much for listening.

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Mary, Shannon, thank you both so much for your fantastic work.

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Until next time, everybody take care.

[02:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Bye bye.