Mary Zheng Post-Season Interview | Survivor 48

[00:00:08] Hey everybody, Mike Bloom here back with another Survivor 48 post-season interview. Today we are talking about the sole survivor of Vula, the woman who went out in green, but she was far from green in attending tribal council. We are talking with the one, the only, Mary Zheng. Mary was such a great conversation to have.

[00:00:33] Obviously, she has been through a lot, many ups, many, many downs, and I am always appreciative of how open she is about the many emotions she experienced over her time on a season 48. Mary also recently put out an EP called 17, so feel free to check that out. She plugs it at the very end of the interview, but for the music maker she is,

[00:00:57] she largely was a solo act, you know, from those early days of losing those tight allies, through, you know, that desperation play of the shot in the dark, that hit in that epic and chaotic tribal council, through the isolation she felt towards the tail end of the game, where she finally went out in seventh place. Mary gets into it all. So, just a few things as per usual before we get into this chat.

[00:01:22] We are incredibly grateful to CBS, as always, for giving us the ability to have the chance to talk with these contestants after the season. We are, however, limited to one hour of conversation with Mary. So, that means that a lot of topics that we've already gotten into through Exit Press, through chat with myself and Rob and others, those are largely left off the table. If you want to hear things like, you know, everything with the coconut etiquette

[00:01:48] and how she felt on her way out and David standing up as her torch was snuffed, that is all talked about in our Exit Press, so feel free to get into that. This is an opportunity to get into some stuff that she didn't have the opportunity to discuss just a couple of months ago. I will also say that this particular conversation is quite explicit. Mary knows her way around a curse word or two, so I would say this would be one to watch with headphones,

[00:02:19] but still a really, really fun time. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Mary. All right, everybody. I am thrilled to be talking with this person, the one who clawed her way out, the last one of her tribe, and someone was standing when she was voted out. We know that she can chop up a coconut, but I'm so excited to chop it up today. Mary Jung. Hi, Mary.

[00:02:48] Let's chop it up, Mike. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I am as well. I mean, the place I actually want to start is something that a lot of people clocked from you in the preseason. Something that you and I actually talked about when we were out there on the island is the fact that you make your own music. I believe that the Survivor Instagram posted a fun fact in the preseason that you, you know, know how to work a YouTube to MP3 converter. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:03:15] That I learned some skills back when I was like 12 and they've stuck with me. Well, I'm super curious then. Have you written any music about your experience since coming back from Fiji? I have not. You know, I feel like I usually write about love and for better or for worse, I didn't experience any romantic love out there. You know, I think the only single ones were like me or no, I wasn't even single out there, but the only other people who were single were Mitch and Say

[00:03:43] and, you know, I didn't know, no love, no romance there between any of us. Yeah. No odes to fixing a man's pants or anything? No, no. Although, you know what? I did do that. Maybe I, maybe I, maybe I could write about that. You know, like I'm done fixing men. I'm not done fixing men's pants, but I'm done fixing men. There we go. All right. People just clip this out, put it on TikTok, put a beat behind it, package it up. It's ready to go. Well, Mary, we got to jump in with the first verse

[00:04:12] of your Survivor song here. And it's a big one. We got to start with Vula. And, you know, a lot of this first episode, we see you majorly, you know, seemingly linking up with Stephanie. You have this sort of underground connection with Kevin that you even, you know, were trying to pursue from the preseason discussion that we had. Obviously, for understandable reasons, a lot of what we got through Vula in the premiere was largely through Say's perspective.

[00:04:43] But giving your perspective, what was sort of your assessment of those first three days before you go to Tribal? And who were you getting close with? Okay, well, first off, I wasn't actually talking about Kevin in the preseason. The person who I thought was Asian, I thought Mitch was Asian. I mean, I can't tell. I was like, is he Filipino? Like, so I guess that's something to clear up. I was talking about Mitch. I really had not like, I don't know why I didn't notice Kevin at all. I mean, his arms are so big, shoulders so strong.

[00:05:12] I don't know how I didn't see him out there. At that time, the shoulders were so strong, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They were strong back then. But yeah, I guess in terms of like the first, you asked about the first three days. Yeah, that first, you know, before we ended up going to the first of many tribal councils for you, what were you doing in those first three days on Vula? Oh my God. Okay, well, I was trying my best to look like I knew how to weave coconut fronds, but I didn't. Like we were all just sitting there and I was just like watching Stephanie do it

[00:05:41] and kind of just like moving my fingers a lot and just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had talked with Stephanie and so I liked Stephanie. I had talked a lot of smack about Cedric. Like I actually remember the first three days I was running around plotting against Say and this was why, because Stephanie and I talked and I was like, I haven't really talked to Say. And she was like, yeah,

[00:06:10] she was in the water with me earlier and she said, and this is, I'm pretending to be Stephanie here. And she was like, she said, Say was like, do you trust Mary? And a question like that, I don't know if that's true or not. I feel like I did ask someone at some point, I probably asked Say or Stephanie at some point, but I honestly do not remember if that actually did happen or do not remember if other people confirmed or corroborated that. But when I heard that, I was kind of like,

[00:06:40] okay, so she doesn't trust me. Um, so I, you know, when the first episode aired, I was so nervous because I knew that I had been running around crazy just being like, so Say, right? It's Say, right? It's Say, right? I also had been throwing Cedric all over the place, all over the bus, all over the bus. I had been throwing Cedric all under the bus. See, this is why Camilla is better at doing it. I was going to say, you're just taking the other prepositions. I'm just trying, you know?

[00:07:10] English is not my first language. I'm doing what I can. Um, I had talked trash about Cedric to everyone because I was like, I don't know who we should vote for. I mean, I guess like Cedric or Say, like Cedric couldn't even get on the boat because when we were like coming back from the challenge, because like my memory, like what I'd known of Cedric, um, and I love Cedric by the way, but what I had known of Cedric was at that first challenge trying to get him up the wall. Yeah. And him just being like,

[00:07:39] I can't do it. I can't do it. And I was like, sir, it is too early to say you can't. Okay. Like it's the first day. It's like the first hour. And then later on, we were all supposed to get back on our boats. And you know, I know it's been filmed. I can't really go on a boat either. I went clip first. Um, like, come on, it's Volvo, right? That's the tribe. So I couldn't really get up on there either. But I remember Cedric just like struggling to like push himself up on the boat and me being like, you can't even get on a boat guys.

[00:08:10] He's got to go. Um, and, uh, before the first tribal council, just running around to everyone being like, okay, well, it's either between Cedric or Say. I mean, like say, right? Say, say, say, say. And everybody was like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I remember, um, at one of the, what's it called? Uh, yeah, for one of the walks, like right before they were like, how are you feeling about tribal council? And I was like, is this silly to say I can't wait? Because I thought I had that pre, um,

[00:08:39] tribal council confidence, right? I had never been burned before. I was like, everything is going to go as I planned. Of course, it did not go as I had planned at all. Um, and yeah, but that was, you know, that was why I was going after Say was because the first thing I heard about her was her, what I perceived as her distrusting me. Um, but I totally get that. I mean, why would you trust someone who you haven't really talked to? You know? Um,

[00:09:09] and so, yeah, the first, first three days I was like, oh, cool. Kevin is Asian. That's my Asian brother. Let's go. Stephanie is cool. She seems like she trusts me. Um, and Cedric, I didn't really have a connection with Justin. I didn't really have a connection with. And so I was kind of just like, you know what? It's too early to like betray anybody. So let me just like, like, I didn't, I didn't want to betray people yet. And so I was like,

[00:09:38] I think I know who doesn't fuck with me. So let me just also not fuck with them and get rid of them. Right. Um, and so, yeah, it was actually crazy because before Stephanie got voted out, she had come up to me and she was like, so you and Kevin are close. Right. And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, okay, well, how much do you trust him? And I'm like, a lot, I guess. And then she was like, well, they've been throwing my name out there.

[00:10:08] And I was like, who, what? Kevin has, I haven't heard anyone throwing out your name. Um, and lo and behold, right. Stephanie ends up going. Um, but, but yeah, at that tribal council, I was like, Oh fuck. I feel like I should like, I feel like something is amiss. I feel like I should probably not vote say, and I should probably not vote say like I, maybe I should do Stephanie, but I was like, it's way too early.

[00:10:36] Like I need to gain people's trust before I break it. Right. You can't break someone's trust if you never earned it. And I had gone around telling everybody that I was going to vote for say. And so I was like, well, fuck, I got to stick with what I said I was going to do. Uh, which I think is kind of what set me up for the rest of the time. One Vula. Well, you know, your confidence is broken as is your skills and getting in a boat. The next day,

[00:11:05] as you get called on this journey, and I would imagine on the one hand, you're like, okay, this is an opportunity. I just got left out of the first vote of the season. And then you're promptly met with yet another cold splash of water in the form of losing your vote. I'm curious because I did do one of these with Eva and even mentioned that actually Thomas turned her against you initially. He had lied to her that you said you were coming after her. Talk to me about what the journey was like for you. Cause I would imagine at this point, getting to meet people on the other tribes,

[00:11:34] you're already saying, all right, I'm going to try to ditch this green buff as soon as I get the chance to. I was just excited. I honestly like why I, I was, you know, as pure as I could be in that moment. I saw Mitch, I saw Thomas. I had liked Mitch, uh, gotten his race wrong, but I liked his vibes. And I just like got off the boat and like hugged everybody. And I was like, hi, it's so great to meet you guys. Like, I can't wait to work with you guys in the future. Sure. And then,

[00:12:04] hearing later on that Thomas had spun it a certain way. Cause Eva had told me that after we made it, uh, after we were on the same team. Um, but yeah, I was excited. I was full of joy, full of hope before I knew that it would involve math. Um, and then I realized what it is. And I'm like, fuck me and numbers. We don't, we don't do well. We don't do well together. And, um,

[00:12:33] I am someone who's like, you know what? But I will figure it out as I go. Like, I was like, I could sit here and try to figure out how to do it, but I've never solved a slide puzzle in my life. I've never attempted to solve a slide puzzle in my life. I know like real fans, super fans will be like, what the fuck? But like, I, you have to know, I am not a super fan. Like I watched three seasons before I applied. Uh, and then it was only after. I had started to hear back from casting that I was like, all right,

[00:13:02] let me watch the rest of the seasons. I, the only podcast that I knew of was Rob has a podcast. I did not know there was a whole ass world out there. And so I was like, that's fine. I don't need to, whatever. I like thought about buying jigsaw puzzles. And then I was like, I think I'm fine. I was not fine. It could not solve that math puzzle, the sliding puzzle at all. And I was actually still trying to get it, getting, getting, getting it until one of the producers are like, Hey,

[00:13:32] you should look at the, the timer. And I was like, Oh fuck. So then I was like, well, it's not like I've ever had anyone out here. You know what I mean? It's not like I was ever at a high, right? You were already kind of coming in at the bottom. And yes, this position. I was like, all right, cool. Well, it is what it is. I don't know what there is left for me to do other than go back and make them think that I got something. Well,

[00:14:02] on that note, we need to go to the next episode because second verse, same as the first, right? You are brought in on this plan to get rid of say it doesn't work. You lose a close ally in the form of Kevin. And here you are seemingly up against an Alliance of three and yet again, facing a tribal council. So we see you really playing it up, being cool as a cucumber. You know, it's something that say clocks is like, okay, she's definitely trying to make us think she has something.

[00:14:32] You know, the guys are not really are kind of discounting it. It's going to lead to you playing your shot in the dark, but talk to me about your, your temperament that day, because we see you hunting for the idol. At what point did you decide to kind of flip those tactics too? All right, let me just go by the water and see how they react. I think it was when we came back. Was there a challenge that day? I think it, there was like a discernible break in the day. Like it wasn't like I'm running, running, running. And then all of a sudden I stopped.

[00:15:01] I'm pretty sure there was a challenge that day. That was the blindfold challenge. Yeah. Yeah. And so when we came back from the challenge, that's when I was like, I don't think I'm going to be able to find an idol between now and then. And if I'm not going to be able to find an idol, then I need to pretend like I have already found one. So I think it was coming back from that. And I think like, I tried to get in the water, take a little ocean bath every time when the sun was still up.

[00:15:30] So it was like a good time for me to like, come back from the challenge, wash off, go for a swim, and then just chill between then and tribal council. Cause I was like, I won't have enough time to find one. I'm really going to be risking it. I might be able to find one, but in the case that I, in case I don't find one, they're going to, it's not, they're going to, it's not going to be as believable. Right. If I like come back,

[00:16:00] like right before we have to go, like it's much more believable if I just pretend like I have it right now. Yeah. I'm curious because, you know, really starting from that second tribal council, you and you were more than happy to speak up at night in front of Jeff, in front of the tribe, especially when say is involved. Did this come as a result of being left out of those initial votes? Was this something that we'll talk about sort of your trademark bluntness that ends up, you know,

[00:16:28] earning your way through until your final days here. Was this the way that you were always going to approach things or was it sort of circumstantial? So I like, I've said it before. I'll say it again. Say is a great competitor. Like she is very, she's fierce. Like she knows what she's doing. She's really good at like, like I, I feel like I had just been pushed. Like I am not someone who like, I'm not someone who like,

[00:16:57] always feels the need to just say something. But if I feel like I need to defend myself, then I will speak up. And I felt the need to defend myself. I think often like that one conversation where say, I am like, I'm like, you look thirsty. And she's like, Oh, I'm, I'm not thirsty. And I'm like, but you always say you drink a lot of water. And she's like, well, because I drink a lot of water, that's why I'm not thirsty.

[00:17:24] Like every single conversation that I had out there was like that. Or Cedric and Justin placating me in a way that was really non believable to me. And so I think I just felt like I had my back up against the wall. And like, if I didn't respond or didn't say things, then I would have felt like I was being walked over. Well, that's what made me speak up, I guess. Rob here. It's big brother season.

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[00:20:00] You do defend yourself here in the form of an incredible shot in the dark play. And what results is nothing short of calamity. And, you know, Justin has said in his interviews that this went on for hours between all the rounds of voting and all the explanations. And, you know, Cedric changing his mind back. Give me your perspective here, because you essentially have no voice once you lose your vote.

[00:20:26] You're safe, but you're watching this alliance with three turn on each other in the most chaotic way. What was your perspective on everything that was going down during that wild night? Well, yeah, I felt so much relief, joy, just like jubilation when I when I hit my shot in the dark. And then soon after it just descended into chaos and it was not pleasant. It was not pleasant for me. Like.

[00:20:56] People were really feeling hurt, like say had like say was crying, you know, like she was crying. She was saying, like, Cedric, would you do this? Like you have a daughter. Would you do this to your daughter? Like, would you vote out your daughter? Don't call me on that. That is that is what I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure it was something to that effect.

[00:21:21] Um, and so she was like she wasn't like thinking she was genuinely feeling hurt. And I feel like and Cedric was genuinely going through it and having like a crisis of conscience. Um, and that's like not fun for me, you know, like it's not fun for me to see people like feeling like hurt by each other.

[00:21:43] Like it's really like kind of like what we play survivor for, though, is to like have these emotions be brought to the apex. Like the as deeply as you can feel your your feet, you're going to feel it out there. And so it was really, really intense.

[00:22:04] And I felt like there people were really struggling to like decide what Cedric was really struggling to decide what was going to happen. Say was fighting for her life. Um, and. I just I guess I kind of like flipped out of game mode and just like flipped into like human mode. And I was feel like I was just like witnessing people going through it, which is not fun for me.

[00:22:31] Yeah, well, you end up going back to camp with the two people that mere days ago you had thrown under around over the bus. But what's interesting is we see the next day. Yes. They approach you and say, OK, maybe we try to work together here. Here her to your point, clearly feeling burnt by Cedric, you know, voting for her the number of times that he did. What was your perspective on it?

[00:22:58] Because we know by the merge, you were certainly like, I'm done with say we can't make this happen in the moment, though. Where did you feel like she was honest in the way that she was approaching you? And do you feel like had Vula probably gone to tribal council again before the swap that you two would have stuck to this deal? It's hard to say because I did feel like say was being genuine. I did feel like say wanted to work with me.

[00:23:27] And yet there was still a part of me that was very self-protective. And I think like there had been such a lack of peace on our tribe for so long. Like like when Cedric is like, I'll keep you, but you two have to cut it out. Like he meant that from like the core of his being because there was no peace.

[00:23:51] Like say and I, it was like, like the whole time, like it was like the allostatic load of like the low grade stress that comes from like constantly living in a state of like butting heads. It really had built up for me. And so I was down to do whatever for peace. So there was a part of me that was down to do whatever for peace, to have it be calm.

[00:24:22] But I hadn't had any experiences with say to build up that trust. And so like I one appreciated that we were peaceful. I thought it was really sweet of her to do the little stick message for me, like going on. I'm like, that was really cute. That was really sweet. But I think once I got to a place where there were options for me, I began to feel differently. Like when I was there and I was like, there are no other options.

[00:24:51] Who else do I have? Any porn in a storm? Yeah. Yeah. And then when I began to feel like there were other options, I guess that that like burgeoning mini trust that I kind of felt with say, I was like, I think it would just be easier. If I cut my losses or I don't even know if that's the right term, but I think it would be easier if I just like started over. I think there was like so much baggage from Vula that I.

[00:25:21] I just wanted to be wiped clean of it. All right. Well, you get the opportunity to wash yourself here. Not literally, unfortunately, but you get to wash the Vula stink off as you trade in green for purple here. And won't spend too much time on new loggy because luckily for you, fortunately, you do not go back to tribal council in the pre-merge. But you make two very key relationships here.

[00:25:44] One we very much see and one we do not, but very much factors into the end game in the form of David and Eva. Eva, talk to me about how this group came together. Oh, diva, diva, diva, David and Eva. I think it was pretty instant. Like on the mat, like David hugged me really hard and probably like a low, low, low grade asphyxiated me. Cause like when tall people hug me, they're like, it's like right here.

[00:26:12] But like, it was so sweet and just like full of warmth. And Eva was a little bit slower. But then once we spent, I feel like once we got back to the island and started talking, it became very clear that like Eva is like very kind. David is very kind. Charity and Star are also very kind.

[00:26:37] Everyone, I mean, like I, like I truly enjoy all of those people. I just didn't really get to know Star. I didn't really start working with Star until later. And I had a mistrust of Charity because she had told multiple people that they were her number ones. And like we had all come together and been like, I don't know. You're her number one and I'm her number one. Then how can she have four number ones, you know?

[00:27:02] But with David, Eva and I, it was probably at some point when like Star and Charity were off because Star really wanted to work with Charity. And so they probably were just off at some point, I assume. And it was just me, David and Eva. Cause I don't remember the exact moment where Eva's like, I want to get rid of Star. And David's like, I want to get rid of Charity. And so you have these two people who are here, not wanting to work with the other person that's here on their tribe.

[00:27:32] And then there's me and I'm the third. And so it's just kind of like, all right, well, let's kick it. Let's unite and let's help each other get rid of the people that we don't trust. And then of course I had talked about say and Cedric and I was like, I don't really trust them at all. So, and they were like, yeah, okay, for sure. Like down, let's, let's do this. Let's get together and just knock out the people that we don't like or don't want to work with. Which is kind of what happened with this, with the strong alliance anyway, you know? Yeah. Can't blame them. It's a good strategy.

[00:28:02] Well, we'll certainly get into that as things go to the individual phase of the game. And you mentioned a couple of these names in say and Charity, who are really seemingly the two people on the chopping block at Mergatory. You mentioned in a confessional, right? That it's like a snake versus a dog. And the snake was say you wanted to get rid of say at the Mergatory. The turtle, the turtle. That's what it was. The turtle ends up, you know, getting the short end of the stick here. Talk to me about that.

[00:28:31] Were you trying to put say's name out there and it didn't stick? Was there another play in motion that caused Charity to go instead? I, you know, it's funny. I'm pretty sure that I was the first person to throw out Charity's name. It was at the Merge Feast. I know in the edit, it seemed like star, but I remember sitting there with fucking food all over my face, down my throat and just being like, you know what?

[00:28:59] Everyone is being so tentative right now. Fuck it. I'll say it. Because I had had separate conversations with everyone, mostly everyone. And they were like, let's not do let's not do charity. I mean, let's let like saying that they didn't trust charity. And I was like, well, if everyone feels like that, if I just say it, then people will coalesce. Right. I don't know why I wasn't thinking about saying. I think it was probably because I was like, you know what? Fuck it. Like everyone wants to do charity.

[00:29:28] That feels like a safe vote. Like I'm not fucking going to go for say if I'm the only one who wants that. And I, I bet probably I was like still trying to like get my bearings, you know, like still trying. Like I'm not about to just jump ship if I haven't established, if I don't have another plan. Right. And so like I hadn't had anything proven with David or Eva or anyone else. And so I think I was probably just like, I'm imagining because I don't remember, but I'm imagining that that's what I was thinking.

[00:29:59] And so, yeah, I'd thrown charity's name out there and everybody tentatively was like, yeah, OK, sure. So it's honestly that it made it seem like it was closer. But I from my recollection, it was pretty obvious. It felt like a done deal with charity. So as you mentioned, you were sort of getting your bearings because you had obviously gotten to know the Vula side of things. You had David and Eva, but you also have a slew of other people that are going to incorporate into your game these new faces.

[00:30:27] Who were some of the people that you were immediately clicking one way or the other with among all these new faces you were meeting right at the merge? I feel like I again, I I didn't want to betray anybody's trust before I had. I had established it. Right. And so. David and Eva had said that they would bring me in, we would work together.

[00:30:55] And so I was really just and I didn't want to. Like, here's some here's something I would do differently. I would have tried to open up to other people, people that weren't in the strong alliance. I was basically just like, all right. They said that I I'm going to be guaranteed safety if I rock with them. Let me in turn rock with the people that they rock with. And so David was like, here's Kyle. You're going to love him. Kyle's my number one.

[00:31:23] And so Kyle and I talked and I was like, oh, my God, Kyle, this is so cool. Like he was, you know, like I could just tell that he was a homeboy. And so Kyle and I, we talked. Joe was so friendly, so welcoming because Eva had been like, yo, Joe, I trust Mary. And so I was just kind of like, like, I finally have people who I might be able to work with.

[00:31:49] Like, let me let me just stick with them and then we can cannibalize each other later on. Right. But like in my head, I had naively thought that it was going to be that simple, that I wouldn't need to. Like expand my horizons and like try to like get in with other people because the other people I felt like it felt kind of disparate.

[00:32:15] Whereas there was this unified group that I could safely I could feel safe because I could just be another number in there. And then they might go after each other first before looking to me because I felt like I was less threatening because I didn't have other people from my tribe around, you know? So I wish I would have reached out to other people more or like tried to make connections.

[00:32:39] But I also don't know, like, how effective that would have been because like Chrissy got out like soon after. Mitch kind of like laid low, you know, and like wasn't really trying to like upset the status quo that much, at least in the beginning. Camilla was always a hard read for me because Camilla is just like she's just chill, man.

[00:33:09] She's just chill as fuck. Like she's just like she is really good at. Like just laying low. And so I I don't know, I felt. Super, super, super confident, unjustifiably so, but super, super confident in this very large group that I felt it would be hard if I got close to other people who I would have to then vote out.

[00:33:37] So and what probably helps fortify that is the fact that at the split tribal council, you end up doing away both by your hand and others with the final two other members of Vula and say and Cedric. Like, I'd be remiss not to mention this bringing in some, you know, postseason stuff.

[00:33:56] You, of course, talked in Exit Press, including with myself, including with Robin, many others about the fact that you did feel antagonized on Vula by, you know, the majority alliance and with the whole hide and seek chasing through the jungle. And, you know, say certainly expressed in response to some of those interviews on social media a certain way that she felt about that. I'm curious because, you know, you did then subsequently all go to watch the finale together as a cast. Where do you think when do you think stand between the two of you right now?

[00:34:26] We don't have a relationship. Yeah, I tried not. I tried to not engage with her. Like when we were in person. And but at one point I like walked by her and I was with my boyfriend, Jesse, and she was like, is that your boyfriend? And I'm like, yeah, that's my boyfriend. And I think that's all we said. So, yeah.

[00:34:55] Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's just kind of like a live and let live is at least that's my that's my MO. So, yeah, I mean, like after all the Exopress stuff came out and her responding to me or I don't know if she'll even say that it was to me. Maybe she'll say it was someone else. I don't know. But I was like, all right, you know what? Fuck it. I think I'm done with Twitter. It doesn't feel like a nice place for me anymore.

[00:35:22] Then I went to TikTok and I got 7000 followers like within two days. So I was like, all right, thanks. Say you push me off Twitter. Now I'm on TikTok. She's on to another social media platform. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I hope she has everything that she wants in life. I hope that she's happy and I am sending love and light from a distance.

[00:35:51] Well, let's talk about the strong alliance. You mentioned it a couple of times, but from our perspective, it seems like one of the big sticking points amongst the many people in this group is, OK, are we bringing in Mary? Are we bringing in Camilla? You know, the way that Eve expressed it, it seemed like it was essentially split down the middle where some people wanted to bring in Camilla. Some people wanted to bring in you. What was your sense of where you stood within that group? Did you have any idea that there was all this discourse going on?

[00:36:19] No, I had no idea this discourse was going on. I was just like, all right, I fuck with David. I fuck with Eva. Eva is really locked in with those people and she is going to help me be in here. I thought I didn't even I don't even think I thought she's going to help me be in here. I thought I was in there. I thought that I was in there. So I think I just really underestimate like I feel like my soul.

[00:36:44] I feel like it's funny because people in my cast were like you had, you know, like you were a threat, like you're athletic and like you're smart. And your social game is bomb as you claimed. I it was not bomb. My social game was not bomb at all. My social game was like the nuclear bomb that like kills people and like devastates humanity. But it was not like the good bomb.

[00:37:04] Like I, for whatever reason, like was unable to connect with my castmates out there in a way that I needed to and in the way that they had with each other. So I don't know. Well, I don't know what it is. I don't know if I got in my head. I don't know if it's because I don't like Taylor Swift and don't care about Beyonce and also don't know anything about sports. I mean, like even Camilla was able to talk hockey with Eva. You know what I mean?

[00:37:33] Like Mitch and Joe would talk about like Texas A&M all the time. Like everyone, I feel like knew something about sports. But I also had a conversation with Joe and I was like, Joe, I don't talk sports. And he's like, we don't talk sports. We talk about feelings and we talk about things that like we've never told anyone before. And I'm like, OK, well, all right, then you got me.

[00:37:57] Because I haven't I have never gone out there and been like, I'm telling these people things I've never told my friends at home because I love my friends. I tell my friends everything. Like I'm not about to tell someone I just met like my whole life story. Like I feel like sometimes on like my experience out there was kind of like if you don't trauma dump, you're getting left out. Hmm.

[00:38:24] If you don't spill everything about your life, all the pain, every hardship, then like they won't feel safe. They won't feel like they're getting something from you. Like I feel like in my normal life. I can be a talker for sure, but I also am happy to just listen. And usually like when you listen, like people feel connected.

[00:38:47] But I feel like out there, whether it was I haven't like fine tuned my hypothesis or like my theory on this, but out there you couldn't get by by just listening to other people. Like you had to give. But it's like it didn't feel genuine for me to be telling people that I just met who I don't trust these things that I would only tell someone who I trust.

[00:39:12] Do you think of some of that came comes from your line of work that obviously you are used to, to your point, receiving a lot of information and being there for somebody. But obviously your work does not necessarily involve reciprocating and being like, great, thank you for telling me this story. Here's a piece of my information for you to know about. I just not really because like I'm very open and vulnerable in my like everyday life.

[00:39:35] I think it was just the fact that like I think I just got in my head and like felt alone, you know, like I kind of felt like rightfully or wrongfully I had a chip on my shoulder because like by that point, like there wasn't anybody on my tribe. Like like you see like in my vote out episode, like everyone is like, yeah, Mary's making a good point. But like I'm day one with so and so, you know, like Shaheen's like. Like, but I'm day one with Joe and Eva and like Kyle's like I'm day one with Camilla.

[00:40:04] Like, I think I just felt like because I had no day ones and because my day ones were not even neutrally with me, but like negatively with me. I think I just I don't know. I am very open, but I'm not going to just like tell everyone everything unless I feel there's like that connection. And for whatever reason, I just didn't feel that there.

[00:40:32] Like I felt like a very like, yeah, you're cool, you know, but the only person I felt that with was Star. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about this, because, you know, it seems like we'll we'll jump to this in a little bit. But I do want to go here briefly that when the two of you are kind of forced to turn against one another, it seemed to be a big deal. Talk to me more about this relationship that you had substantiated by the time you had to go against one another.

[00:40:59] Yeah. I mean, Star and I, we didn't really start working together until I until I felt like people were coming after me until I felt like my position was threatened in the strong five, six, whatever it was. I didn't really start getting to know her until I realized that I needed to expand my horizons.

[00:41:23] And then I found Star to just be like such a soft, like such a soft heart, like so, so sweet. Like you see her uplifting Cedric. That's just like one moment. Right. Like Star is really just like. Yeah, she's really just like true and also hilarious. And we had had lots of talks about like her upbringing, her family life, like her relationship.

[00:41:52] And so I felt like she had trusted me, which made me trust her. And I think that like I never really got to that point, like deeply with other people while I was out there. But yeah, when we had to turn on each other, I don't even think you would call it turning on each other. That was both of both of us just being like, well, I mean, as you were me, I'm not going to blame you for self-preservation. So let's just see what happens. Good luck.

[00:42:21] But not too much good luck, because if you get better luck than me, then you say I go. So only good luck a little bit. Well, let's rewind one vote here to the David boot. Now, what's interesting is this episode in the Chrissy episode, you and David were really starting to, you know, discern this theory of, all right, Shaheen and Camilla are working together. They pick each other for this partner challenge. Shaheen might play his idol on Camilla because you believed he had an idol. They're trying to, you know, put together this coup to overthrow us.

[00:42:51] Now, for what it's worth, Shaheen has corroborated saying that him and Camilla were close and had this sort of like underground alliance. But talk to me about the signs that you were seeing that led to you coming up with this idea. I think it was it was it was like Camilla working with Shaheen, but also Camilla working with Kyle. Like Kyle didn't want Camilla to be voted for. We were like deciding between like Chrissy and Camilla.

[00:43:17] And I was like, it's got to be Camilla because she has this connection with Shaheen. But then Kyle wouldn't vote for her. I think it was just like the way that like Shaheen picked her for that challenge, whatever challenge we had that were for partners. Yeah. And then his answer to why he picked her. I was like that. Something's not adding up. But yeah, after hearing, you know, after finding out that Kyle really didn't want to vote for her either. I was like, OK, well, she definitely has to go.

[00:43:46] And people are like, you'll been like, Mary hates Camilla. Oh, hey, come see that she's a threat. Like, come on. That's what we're supposed to do. Right. So, yeah, I think it was the way that Shaheen had answered that. I think this is like a year ago, though. So that's what I give me your perspective on this major hit you take in the David Blind side where, you know, somebody heard this before you're feeling confident.

[00:44:15] You feel like you have this number one. You're going to sail through it. You have an enemy you're going to get rid of. And then confidence is humbled. We find out in the episode that it seems like David is really rubbing a lot of people in this alliance the wrong way. The way he's approaching Kyle, you know what he says to Joe. Were you getting a sense of that as well? And what was your reaction? If so.

[00:44:39] I my reaction was I'm going to stay out of this, which I think is what allowed me to not be the vote. I feel like if I would have backed David. I would have set myself up to be more of a target. I was kind of just like. I saw that there was tension between David and the rest of the people in the alliance. I think David was just getting frustrated that nobody was believing us. I think that's what it was.

[00:45:07] Although I know Eva had said that David had been like somewhat of a bully towards Kyle. I don't know if I was there. I don't remember. But I do also remember one time where like we were all together and we were like it was David, Kyle, me. And I don't remember who else. But Kyle was like, if you would just let me speak, I'll tell you why I voted for Chrissy or something like that.

[00:45:36] He just kept saying if you would let me speak. And David's like, OK. But then every time Kyle was like, if you would let me speak, we would let him speak and he wouldn't really say anything. And so David was getting frustrated. And so in that moment, I could tell that Kyle was like. Not I could tell I perceived him. I think he was trying to come up with a lie on the spot. And so every time we gave him a chance to clear it up, like he didn't say anything because he didn't know what he was going to say.

[00:45:59] But it worked out in his favor because when David would get frustrated, it looked as if like David was like going at him. So, yeah, I also think I got way too excited and like often would be like, David, like we got to talk. You know what I mean? Like I had no chill for whatever reason. I was just I feel like I'm pretty in your face in my everyday life.

[00:46:29] And I think that probably carried over like I could care. I can I can have discretion sometimes, but I wish I would have had a little bit more discretion with my relationship with David. But yeah, I just I think he was. I could sense that people were getting a little bit disgruntled, I guess a little bit is an understatement, but disgruntled with the way that he was acting. But from my perspective, he was just frustrated that people weren't listening.

[00:46:59] I'm curious because at that point, you know, had the plan gone through to get rid of Mitch like you and David wanted. Were you envisioning a final three for yourself? I had never thought of a final three. I lied to star and said, star, it's you, me and David. We had all come up together with that. But like in order to have a final three, you need to have hope.

[00:47:27] I had no hope, Mike. Like I feel like because I came from Vula, I was so used to just playing. Let me just make it to tomorrow. Let me just make it past tonight. Let me just make it to tomorrow. And I think I something I had imprinted on the short term line of sight from coming from Vula. And so, no, I never had a final three. I never had any faith that I could really make it.

[00:47:57] I was just like, I hope I make it to the next day. I hope I make it to the next day. Well, after this David blindside, you find yourself on the bottom of the tribe once more. And not for lack of trying, it seems like you're trying to put something together. You're briefly part of this, you know, counter movement to maybe force rocks. Talk to me about the approach that you make in the wake of the David blindside. And what was your reaction in the moment when you end up hearing that, you know,

[00:48:23] Mitch specifically from our perspective would not be the one to end up flipping over? I mean, I could feel that nobody was going to take what I was saying and run with it. I think I had approached it really logically. Like I had underestimated. I had known logically that this game would be a social game. But I don't think I knew that with my heart.

[00:48:46] I thought that people would be rational players and like do what I thought was in their best interest. But there was no trust. I wasn't on a tribe with these people. Like they, I had no relationship with them. Because remember, like I didn't have a relationship with Mitch. I didn't have a relationship with Camilla. I just started building a relationship with Star. Those are the people who, and then Kyle, I kind of did.

[00:49:12] But like when things between him and David went sour, then I became David's number one. So I like kind of stole his boyfriend. So it's like Kyle had no reason. Like all Kyle had seen of me was that I had stolen his number one. Right? And so I don't have that trust with Camilla. I don't have that trust with Mitch. It doesn't matter like how good, it doesn't matter like how good my plan sounds, how logical my pitch is. I don't have that trust with them.

[00:49:42] I don't have that relationship. I don't have that rapport. And so at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Something that you talked about with me was the fact that you specifically said toward the final days you spent in the game that you felt ostracized by the tribe socially. You know, you talk about coming back from that, you know, being left out of reward at the final seven and, you know, feeling a little left out with the fact that nobody had really supported you in that moment. Were there specific things that you felt others were doing or not doing?

[00:50:11] Or was it more of a general feeling that had you so solitary? It was just that I'd be like, I'm going to go get water. Crickets. Nobody comes to me. I think like by the end, like everybody was out there watching the sunset. Nobody had woken me up. Like I could feel that like the energy had shifted. Like Joe used to be so warm with me. And then all of a sudden, like he had cut that warmth off.

[00:50:37] And yeah, like just nobody wanted to talk to me, you know, like and I don't blame them. Right. I did the same thing. I didn't get to know Mitch, Camilla, Chrissy, Star at the beginning post-merge because I was like, I'm going to cut them off. So I get not wanting to get close with someone who you know you're going to vote off. I think at that point, everyone knew they were going to vote me off at some point or in the near future. And so they're like, what's the point? You know, what's the point of pretending to be nice to her?

[00:51:08] Which honestly, I feel like is a little bit respectful in a way because if they were to like feign kindness to me or not kindness, but like to feign interest in me, like I feel like I might have been able to see through it and then felt disrespected. Yeah. I mean, you talk, you talk about that a bit with like Eva versus Joe and talking to you after the blind side, where again, it does come to you saying like, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to help you, but it might not work out.

[00:51:35] Whereas Joe, maybe to your point is trying to talk to you in a bit of a more buttering up flowery thing. Like, well, actually, Mary, it was because of you that we got rid of David that you were very adverse to. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I am a straight shooter or at least I try to be not always, but I try to be. And I really just appreciated Eva being like, no, I'm not going to use my idol on you. Did that suck? Yeah. Because she said she would before. And I thought that she was someone who would keep her word.

[00:52:04] But at that point, I had no, I was no longer an ally. And so she did not in her mind owe that to me. But I thought to myself, like, I would have a really hard time saying to someone's face, like, no. Right. Like saying to someone's face straight up, no, I'm not going to do that. That would be difficult for me. And Eva did that. And I respected that. But but yeah, I mean, I feel like Shaheen even kind of said it in like my boot episode.

[00:52:33] He was like, no one wants to like catch the sickness. Like you talk to the person who's going to die. Yeah. You're going to die next. But still, I had really appreciated because Shaheen, because when we were coming back from camp, like Shaheen was the only one to say something to me. He was like, keep your head up. And like that moment, like it was it was the kindness that I needed. And I also knew everyone was in their head after that challenge.

[00:53:02] Shaheen was disappointed that he was so close to winning, but then didn't. Joe. Right. Almost had it, but didn't. And so I think people were just in their own heads. And I also didn't have a friendship with them where like they cared. Like you can't just pretend like you care about someone. You know what I mean? Like they your energy is finite. Right. Every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to someone else. They were saying yes to each other.

[00:53:27] Making time to like develop their bonds with each other, which meant that there was not that time to bond with me. Also, I had like ruined. I had I'm like Eve and David is like Adam. I've like ruined David, their original ally. And so I don't. Yeah, I get why people didn't rock with me. Well, you say these people were in their heads. You get in their heads a little bit, Mary, on your way out when you openly declare.

[00:53:56] Hey, Joe, just so you know, I'm voting for you because I think you're the biggest threat. Was this another tactic or was this you being cards up and you felt in that moment? Joe was the odds on threat to win. It was both. It was both. I was like it was like when Joe had basically been like, I'm going to tell you why nobody trusts you. I was like a little bit like, well, I'm going to tell you that I'm voting for you.

[00:54:25] You know, and to see later that he had that kind of reaction, I was like, well, welcome to Survivor. Welcome to feeling like you're on the bottom. I don't know how you would have done if this was how you this predicament you were in this whole time. But yeah, it was both. It was both me trying to be like. OK, fuck it. What do I have to lose? And also, what do I have to lose? You know?

[00:54:52] Well, you end up getting voted out here. And, you know, we obviously will not get into anything that happened during your time as a juror, except for the final tribal council. You end up being one of the votes for Eva. I'm curious. Did you come into that evening knowing your vote was locked in for her? And if not, was there anything done by her or by the other two that had you change your mind?

[00:55:17] I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but when I was like being asked in confessionals, like the pros, like what? Who? What? What was Eva's strength? What was Kyle's strength? What was Joe's strength? I was like, I don't know. And at one point they were like, Mary, you have to give us something. You can't say you don't want to vote for anyone. I was like, but I don't. I don't want to vote for anyone.

[00:55:41] So I think at the end, what happened was I was kind of like, OK, I don't know if Joe has as much. I respect strategy and I don't think Joe has proven that. Um, and with Kyle, we had had a conversation before where I was like, are you playing the game that, you know, you came out here wanting to play? And he was like, no, but like. I can't hurt people anymore.

[00:56:11] And we see his evolution. I mean, like it ends up working in his favor and he plays an amazing game, but that was the last conversation that I had with him. So like that, like, and I think I had been so colored by that conversation that whenever he talked, I kind of just tuned out. You know, like I because of the because of my emotions, it had like blocked my brain from like absorbing any more information because I was like, I don't respect his gameplay.

[00:56:41] That was my thought at the time. I totally respect this gameplay now. But at that time, I mean, I literally had a conversation where I was like, are you doing what you want to do? And he's like, no, not really. I'm scared of hurting people's feelings. So. I found it really impressive that Eva had hidden from us this whole time that she was a Ph.D. candidate. That to me showed strategy because she had purposefully donned this dumb jock persona and had fooled me.

[00:57:10] And so I thought that that was impressive. I thought that that was worth. I thought that was good. I thought that counted as strategy. And I think at the end of the day, I thought I would vote a certain way. Like I thought I would be someone who valued X, Y, Z. But what I really valued, I think, and my vote goes to show that is someone who's playing a game that's true to themselves. Like I don't think Eva ever had that like.

[00:57:37] Like that doubt, that pull between am I doing what I want to do versus am I just doing it? Am I am I playing the way that is true to myself? Like I feel like Eva the whole time was like, I'm loyal. I'm a team player. I'm honest. And she played that way. Whereas Kyle came out here wanting to be sneaky.

[00:57:58] And then in the end, feeling like he couldn't go through with hurting people's emotions because Kyle is an amazing person and like has that heart. But because he had that like moral quandary that like where he at some points didn't feel like he was honoring himself and playing the game that he wanted to play. I feel like it's, you know, I learned myself.

[00:58:23] Well, hey, maybe that's what I value is someone playing a game that is honoring who they are. The last thing I want to talk about is really widening the scope to watching the season back. And I want to talk about your parents because you opened up to me in the preseason about, you know, the incredible journey that your parents underwent in, you know, everything they underwent in China to making their way to the United States.

[00:58:49] And you even mentioned at one point we see in the episode about how, you know, you were hoping to win to set up your mom financially to, you know, be able to see the woman that your mom used to be when, you know, she wasn't working so hard to make ends meet. I know you even got the merge tribe name, Mary, milk in Mandarin in the hopes that, you know, it would have the subtitles to have your parents be able to watch. Obviously, this was an incredibly emotionally loaded experience for you. Yeah.

[00:59:19] But what was it like to bring them in on that experience? It was so fucking awkward to translate for my mom that part in the final tribal or in my last tribal council where I was like, I'm doing this so I can get to know the mom. My mom used to be. I glossed over it. We all just kind of we're not an emotional family. We all just kind of were like silent, like, OK, next. But my parents didn't even notice that the tribe name was Neonai.

[00:59:47] I had to point it out to them. They were like, oh, like it's so funny because like some things that I feel like tickle me. They just are like, oh, but yeah, it was really cool because my mom like usually is kind of like my number one hater because she's so critical. But she was my number one fan watching Survivor like she watched everything.

[01:00:10] She had downloaded all the pictures she could find on Twitter and had named them Mary underscore Survivor S-E-R-V-I-V-E-R one, two, three. She had like 22. That's like a Joe level of spelling. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And she watched every single episode. Her English is better than my dad. So she watched every single one. And then with my dad, I I can only translate so many episodes at a time.

[01:00:39] So I had like watched the first four with my dad and my mom translating them. Well, my mom watched on her own every Wednesday. And then I'd like hung out with my parents like three times, translated four episodes. And then my dad didn't see any for like a couple of months because it got really hectic and I didn't really have time to go home. I was just going everywhere to these airings. And then I came home, I think like a couple of weeks ago. And he was like, let's watch. Let's watch. Let's watch one more.

[01:01:09] The one you get voted out on. And so my dad watched the first four and then my boot. And then after the boot, he's like, I don't even want to watch anymore. And my mom's like, everyone was so cool. My poor baby. And they were so supportive. My mom actually was like, you I feel like watching you play this. I see that you've grown up. Like, I don't think of you as a little girl anymore. Like you handled yourself very gracefully.

[01:01:37] Um, and you handled yourself very well, despite all the things you went through. And that was really, really nice to hear. And, um, yeah, it's funny because before the show started, my dad was like, this is an amazing show. What an amazing premise. And then after I get voted out, he's like, this show will bring out the worst in humanity. Anybody who watches it for a long time will turn evil. Your dad's going through the feelings that like all of America went through in the summer of 2025 years ago. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[01:02:07] So my parents were super supportive. And it was super cool to watch it with them. But like, yeah, I, I don't know. Like I, it's something I did. And like, I'm proud of the way that I played. And like, if my, I'm not butthurt that my dad didn't watch all the episodes. You know what I mean? Like, he's got a life too. I've got a life. We've all got lives. You watch the boot episode. That's what matters. That and the shot in the dark. So I'm happy. Well, this was an absolute delight, Mary. I mean, something I always really appreciate about our chances to talk is the fact that, you know,

[01:02:35] not only are you more blunt than the machete you used to chop open all those coconuts, but the fact that you do speak with so much candor and emotional truth. And I told you this during our interview, and I'll keep saying it again. I know you received this compliment. You know, this experience is not always going to be incredible, positively life-changing things for everybody. And I think the fact that even to this day, you've opened up about the highs, but especially the lot of the lows that you hit. I think a lot of people found incredibly relatable.

[01:03:03] And again, much like you experienced during your time in the game, a cold splash of water as to what this experience can be. And I'm sure to your mom's point, you did grow up a lot from it. You learned a lot. A lot of learning can come through these more negative experiences. And so thank you for speaking truth to that and speaking as you always do truthfully today. Thank you, Mike. And I do have to say, like, I am so grateful for my experience out there. I'm grateful that I got the chance to go out there.

[01:03:29] And, like, I want, I would hope that everyone would, like, take what I'm saying in terms of, like, me speaking, you know, honestly about my experience and kind of have that as a backdrop. That, like, I'm so grateful that I got the chance to play, you know? And I hope that other people who get out there to play, like, it does, like, change their lives forever in, like, the best way. And they get lots of new best friends. And it just, like, yeah, I hope that for everyone.

[01:03:58] So, anyway, thanks for what you said. Of course. Where can people follow you, Mary? Obviously not on Twitter. Seems like TikTok is the way to go. But where can people check you out? I feel like TikTok, I'm so scared because I know that, like, you can spend a lot of time on there. So catch me on Instagram. I am actually dropping an EP tomorrow. So you can follow me and find out about my music on Instagram. At Instagram slash Mary Jung underscore. I believe is what it is. All right. There we go. We started with music.

[01:04:28] This was such a lovely time, as always, Mary. Thank you so, so much. Mike, I appreciate you. And there you have it, folks. My postseason interview with Mary Jung. Mary, thank you again so, so much for being so open and vulnerable and honest about all of the various emotions you have tied to your Survivor experience. It is greatly, greatly appreciated. And I have so much appreciation for you all as well for checking out all of these Survivor postseason interviews.

[01:04:58] Of course, if you missed it at this point, I got to talk with Shaquine, got to talk with Eva as well. And we've been doing plenty of stuff in the Survivor offseason. You know, they just recently announced that we do have a premiere day for Survivor 49. And we'll be coming to our screens with a two-hour episode on Wednesday, September 24th. But we're going to keep these embers stoked a little bit. The fire is not going to go out anytime soon when it comes to offseason Survivor podcast. So do not miss a beat of it.

[01:05:25] Make sure you subscribe to RobHasAPodcast at WeKnowsurvivor.com, as well as here on YouTube, to make sure that you do not miss anything we've got going on until September rolls around. And we have a new group of castaways to talk about. Thank you to CBS, as always, for giving us this opportunity to talk with these contestants after the season. To everybody who has supported this and all the interviews that we've been doing.

[01:05:50] And of course, once again, Mary, go stream 17 by Baby Teeth on your music app of choice. You will not regret it. Let us know your thoughts about this interview in the comments. And I'm sure we'll be talking more Survivor soon. Until then, everybody, take care. Bye-bye.