Know-It-Alls: Survivor 50 Finale

[00:00:04] The smartest guys around are about to break it down like they've won the game a million times. To really win the game at all? Survivor know-it-all.

[00:00:26] Steven Fishback about Survivor. Welcome back!

[00:00:54] Yeah, let's just keep doing this every Wednesday. We'll still, we were kind of like, you know, we'll just talk about the finale for Survivor every Wednesday from now on. Keep it rolling. And yeah, here we go. And so we are back. It's one week after Survivor 50. And now that things are in the rearview mirror, we have been able to process a little bit. And this is the first time Steven and I are able to get back together on the know-it-alls to talk about it. Steven, how are you?

[00:01:20] I'm great. I'm so sad to have missed all of the enthusiasm and excitement of, and discourse around, around the finale. There was so much to say, so much to talk about. And now it's been talked to death. Yeah. We don't know what you had to say about everything. And so... It's conventional, I feel like. Conventional. All right. Well, we can talk about that and talk about the season as a whole. I also have some questions pulled. I have a mailbag coming up with Brandon Donnelly. And I said, you know what, Brandon? Why don't we take some of the more strategic, more of the edit questions. Something that's going to be really in Steven's wheelhouse.

[00:01:50] Let's take some of those questions. So we're going to take some of your questions as well here in this podcast as we talk it through with Steven. And how was your Memorial Day? It was lovely. I was at, I had like nested vacations, Rob. So I had gone, I was with my whole family on vacation. We went to South Carolina with my kids and my parents and my brother and his wife and his kid.

[00:02:14] And within that vacation, I left that vacation and I left my wife with my children and my family. To do what? And I flew to my 25th college reunion and it was lovely. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. Okay. It was a lovely experience. So I had like, and then I flew back and that was sort of why I was, I was not able to podcast. I was like shirking one vacation for another vacation. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, that's look at you hobnobbing with all sorts of people.

[00:02:41] And in the meantime, I was out in LA. I went to the live show. I'm sure as everybody knows, and then I've been back here and sort of like recuperating a little bit from a busy stretch, but of course ready to talk much more about this. We, so this week already did club condo with Chappelle yesterday. We got Steven today, uh, Thursday, I will be doing that mailbag that we've been talking about, collecting your questions from the season finale and season in review and looking ahead into the open era.

[00:03:11] And then this Friday, we're going to do the return of the wand off still about 36 hours to get your wand offs in for season 50. And Josh Wigler is standing by for the return of a season 50 wand off. But Steven, I guess, let me start with you in terms of, you know, you have been talking quite a bit. Sometimes you get on the X.com and you really get into the discourse.

[00:03:36] You got a lot of takes on X.com and you had been talking about the Aubrey win, which, uh, that you felt like was maybe predestined for some time. Yeah. I mean, you know, and of course then there's this other discourse too, around that same thing, which was like the, the Kalshi and the betting that happened around it. Yeah. And we can talk about that too. Yeah. Can I, before, well, I want to talk about, well, I want to ask you. Whatever's on top of mind for you. Don't feel beholden to the question.

[00:04:05] I have a question because I do want to talk about this stuff. I think that's like, that's really interesting. Um, but like this really felt like the high point of survivor fandom. I mean, like at least as I have experienced that you, you played, you know, with all stars and Amazon so long ago. So, so, so, so, so, so long ago. Um, and, but no, but you might've been in college.

[00:04:29] Yeah. Um, I, I do think there was more a, you know, there was probably more fervor around it, but like the, the enthusiasm and the media and the press, I mean, around survivor generally around Rob Sesternino specifically just, and around like all of this, you know, brew ha ha, you know, with your book coming out at the same time, you're in New York with like, you know, this, this audience of 1400 people.

[00:04:55] You're at the survivor finale. Like what, like, did this feel like the high point and like, how are you feeling? You know, I'm sure there's just like a craziness that comes from being like immersed in it all, but then it's over. Like, do you think like an onto the next triumph or do you think like, this is going to be it? Maybe like things like 51 is not going to have the same, you know, New York times coverage. Yeah. So when I've talked about the season, I feel like that the actual season that happened, um, you know, I think that for the most part was fine.

[00:05:25] There was, we, we had some fun. There were some big swings and some big moments certainly that we will remember. But I think the thing that I've taken away the most about survivor 50 was sort of the energy and the excitement that there was. And really, I really felt like that survivor 49, you know, it was really like, um, a, uh, a tale of two seasons.

[00:05:49] Uh, survivor 49, I felt like was the absolute nadir of survivor enthusiasm where that it was with all due respect to the people in survivor 49, there was no excitement whatsoever in the fall of, uh, 2025 for survivor. And so to have it then be all this excitement, I do hope that we will move it forward. I don't know if we will in terms of like this last stretch that we had with the podcast and everything.

[00:06:19] Like I really did say like, Hey, well, this is really great, but this is not the new normal. You know, there's a lot going on here that I don't think that we're going to be drawing 1500 people in survivor 51. People will still be excited. They'll turn out, but that's why I've been saying all along that, Hey, make sure in the fall, you give people a reason to tune in. Don't take this for granted that you're going to automatically continue. And I do hope that, you know, and maybe this is just my psychology. I try to take nothing for granted.

[00:06:49] I try to say, you know, Hey, you're very good. Like no one will, no one will, no one will just stay. You gotta, you gotta keep, keep grinding and they're going to leave. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I certainly have seen that, uh, from you just that sort of like optimism and positivity and, and real humility with, with all this stuff. But there's also a world where, you know, there is kind of like, you know, you've gotten a lot more attention, right? Survivor generally has gotten a lot more attention.

[00:07:18] Like maybe it brings in new people and, and, you know, the community does grow and like the impact that this sort of like type of engagement with Survivor, but also other shows like, uh, you know, it grows as well. Perhaps. I think it remains to be seen. I think that, um, a lot of people came back for Survivor 50. Um, I don't know necessarily if what they're doing in season 51 gives those people who came back to Survivor after maybe being gone for five years, 10 years. Um, maybe, maybe they said, Oh, I had such a good time.

[00:07:46] I'm going to, Hey, let's keep watching Survivor into Survivor 51. One, you knock on wood and you hope that that happens, but I also think you need to give people a reason to have that happen. We don't know what they're going to do for Survivor 52. Perhaps, uh, you know, keeping some returning players in the mix could be a way to do that. And I know that they, uh, tend to not want to go in that direction, but Jeff has also teased that you'll see returning players sooner than later.

[00:08:13] Well, they asked the fans what they wanted and what the fans wanted was the medallion of power. Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, we can talk more about the, the open era. Open era. But I want to say, I just like, I, I loved this season. I think this is one of my favorite seasons of all time. And I do think some of that was this, the general enthusiasm around the season. I think that's sort of like the infectiousness and the excitement that we all had, you know, or it's running that I had week to week.

[00:08:34] Um, seeing what would, would happen in the great play, but I felt, and I've, I've treated about this in other places that like this season had something. I don't feel I've ever seen on a reality show before, which was this sense of like scope and time. You know, you have Colby who, when we first saw him was this, you know, young buck, strong guy, you know, hero.

[00:08:59] And here he's in his fifties and his knee hurts and he's got to lean in closer so that you can, you know, whisper it to you. So you can talk into the good ear and, you know, and then he's paired with this like young kid who's like on, on, on his way up. And then you've got this, this sort of, you know, decades long feud between coach and Aussie that plays out. And you have Aussie, you know, who this guy who again and again is like, I'm going to change how I play. I am Oscar now. I'm not Aussie.

[00:09:25] And he goes out in the exact same way that he went out, you know, 20 years ago. And then you have Aubrey who's saying I've played this way before. It didn't work for me. I am going to change. And I just thought it was such like a profound meditation in some ways on aging and, you know, the way that your perspective changes and evolves and the way that you try to change in response and, and the degrees to which that's even possible.

[00:09:49] You know, this, this desire as a human to look at your past flaws and look at your past mistakes and evolve from them and the different capacities, different abilities that people have to do that. I mean, it was really lovely. And then of course, also there was, you know, Zach Brown and Mr. Beast. So we had it all. Well, I wanted to speak more about the first thing.

[00:10:09] And I'm wondering, you know, cause I think that what you've said was really profound and beautiful that I feel like that the part about their players coming back with open wounds. I think that that was on the page. And I think that that was kind of baked in.

[00:10:27] Do you feel like that that second part of it of like the players dealing with closing the loop and of time and of the passage of time that do you feel like what is that sort of. Was that baked into this or do you feel like that that sort of just analysis that you've put onto this? I think if they had put it too much into it itself, I think it would have killed it. Right.

[00:10:55] Like, you know, Jeff, like what is it Colby to be a man in an aging body? You know, like he's at a loved ones visit. Like there are people who go through time and they get older. I think it was inherent in the very casting of it. You know, literally you see Colby and he's older and he's not moving as well. And he's like embracing joy, you know? And I think the fact that it was not so heavy hand, like that was it. It was like the subtext, right? The text was like these advantages and these crazy things that are happening.

[00:11:20] But like the background was we have all these characters who are in their 40s and their 50s and they played 30 years ago. They played 20 years ago. I saw it happening, like regardless of like whether or not it was in the confessionals. But it was also in confessionals, right? Like certainly the Aussie Oscar thing was very much in confessionals. And Aubrey too, right? It was like so much of her story was like, can I change how I play? Like, you know, Sari, I felt, I mean, again, like this was not like she didn't talk about it as a theme. But, you know, so much of Sari's mastery.

[00:11:49] I mean, she was always amazing, right? In her very first season, she was amazing. And then certainly in her second season, she did one of the greatest moves in Survivor history. But now she's just so effortlessly amazing. And I think that's a question of experience, you know? So I do think it's like it's there. It's happening. I almost am happy that they didn't like lean too heavily into it because I think that's where it sort of like kills how organic and like true it feels. All right. Let's talk about Aubrey and her win here in season 50.

[00:12:18] I've talked about this a lot of that. I feel like that the win in season 50 was really a win that was very representative of the era of Survivor, which we may be coming out of the new era. I thought this was sort of like a classic new era win that Aubrey has.

[00:12:38] I love the story for Aubrey in terms of like the redemption story for Aubrey of this thing that she's been chasing personally for 10 years that she ultimately lands on. What was your opinion one week later on the Aubrey win? Yeah, I really came around on Aubrey.

[00:12:56] And I think something that I was really like sort of like bristling at, you know, throughout the season and certainly through the last few episodes was the sense that I was being fed a tale, you know, that we were getting these like really heavy handed Aubrey confessionals that were like in my mind, like, you know, very deliberately kind of trying to craft and edit and justify Aubrey's win to people who are watching sort of casually rather than us getting to see Aubrey.

[00:13:22] But I actually like upon reflection and certainly after her wonderful tribal council, final tribal performance, I really felt like we did see that this winning game that Aubrey played really was there. And so much of it was the little bonds she built. You know, the fact that we have a lot of scenes of Aubrey like dancing with coach or like, you know, whispering to Jonathan, like, hey, let's get rid of Devin's or like, oh, we can't have Devin's like going looking for the idol.

[00:13:48] Can you go do that? You know, we have Aubrey building relationships with everybody in a way that you'd think everybody does. You think every single contestant has to have a relationship with everybody. There's 10 of them on a beach, you know, like, what are you doing? Like talk to everyone. Not everybody does it. And we saw Aubrey being very deliberate about it and very tactical in how she used those relationships.

[00:14:08] I mean, she really highlighted that at tribal council that because she had relationships with everybody, she was able to kind of move the target and push people's attention where she wanted it to go at key points. And I think that really bears out, you know, the fact that she was kind of whispering in everybody's ear that she saw that she was being perceived as in the middle with Devin's and Christian, et cetera.

[00:14:28] And she really responded to that and made a tactically different choice to like lean into the other groups and kind of like push the target onto the middle, you know, and then sort of like kind of like tack backwards when she had to. And so I, you know, I think your comparison to Aubrey with Marianne really was sort of borne out by the way this ended, you know, certainly like making the big move at the final six, even her sort of final tribal council. I felt like kind of her getting credit for the Aussie vote was sort of equivalent to like Marianne, like having the secret idol.

[00:14:59] Like, you know, she got this like, yeah, you have to have a reveal at the final trial. There was a reveal, right? I mean, just like, you know, D had her reveal with Austin. I mean, it does, it was, it was a big moment in that respect. So it did feel like a very new era win. And I think, you know, to her credit, you know, right? Like the people who were out there, like pulling the big flashy moves, then got targeted and she recognized she had to lay low.

[00:15:21] And of course, like, you know, I thought her, her, you know, mentioning all of her, the past winners, you know, Michelle made the, you know, kind of peak right at the right moment, right at the end. Chris Underwood, nobody's accusing Chris of making moves all season long, you know, like that guy certainly peaked at the end. Cause he wasn't even there until the end. So it really did. I mean, other than Sarah, I mean, Sarah really had a kind of strong game throughout, but you know, she, I really thought she played a great game and certainly one deserving of the win. I thought Jonathan played a good game too. I know I'm not supposed to say that.

[00:15:50] Let me just respond to what you're saying about Aubrey and we can talk about Jonathan. But I think that one of the underrated things about Aubrey is I think that there was a realness to Aubrey and maybe that's the thing she takes the most away from Michelle rather than I'm going to wait to the end and I'm going to make my real moves. I think that Michelle always, if you ever interact with Michelle, there's an authenticity around Michelle that Michelle is not putting anything on. Michelle's not faking anything.

[00:16:20] And I do wonder if that the earliest versions of Aubrey that we saw was an Aubrey that was trying to be everything to everybody, you know, and, and it's certainly something that I know I've struggled with in my life of, okay, I'm going to give you exactly what you need.

[00:16:37] And that's how the ideal way to play survivor. But Aubrey comes back here in this season and you see it play out with Genevieve of like, I'm not going to fake it. Like, I'm not feeling this. And it's like, okay, I'm put off by this. But I also think that at the same time that Aubrey is seen as a very authentic person. And I think that she has these moments with people where people look at her as like, okay, wow, she's so real for that.

[00:17:06] She is somebody who I really can, she's not, she's not faking it with me. And so she ends up having some of these relationships that we don't see quite as clear in the show, maybe until the last minute, but she has these great relationships with Ceri, with Rick, with Tiffany, with Joe, with Rizzo, I think even with Jonathan. And she does a really good job of making people feel like that she's not a phony baloney.

[00:17:35] Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, she really, and you're probably right that her slow start helped her, you know, I mean, of course, in Game Changers, not, I'm sorry, not Game Changers, Edge of Extinction, she kind of had the exact opposite experience where like there was that whole montage of her, you know, being a phony baloney with everybody. And then she's, you know, shortly thereafter. Can I bring in a question from the listeners? Because I think that this is very much on that. This is from CMOOSE112. How much of Aubrey's success came from lowering her threat level due to her less than perfect run in the Edge of Extinction?

[00:18:04] Is the new meta for returning players to fall on your face one season and then come back and win? That certainly worked for Tony, right? I mean, there's something to that. Like, I think if Aubrey came back like pre-Game Changers, like as this person who had just been to the final five, you know, multiple seasons, and if that was like, like then she's like this like super strategic threat.

[00:18:26] But I do think that the fact that she went out so early in Edge of Extinction was probably really like mitigated that threat for her. I mean, again, like same thing with Tony, right? Like he fell on his face as this super threat in Game Changers. And then when he comes back and winners at war, like he's able to run the table. Yeah. I think also the thing that's in common between, you know, Tony in Game Changers and Aubrey, ironically, is there for that.

[00:18:51] And then Aubrey after the Edge of Extinction, I think even more so than having a bad run was also, you know, that, but also the passage of time. I think that between Game Changers and I guess it's the same amount of time for Tony, but maybe the legend of Kageon was so much over people's minds, where it had been now six years since Kageon and that people were less worried about Tony after all that.

[00:19:19] And then Aubrey has really, you know, been away from Survivor really from since when the Edge of Extinction happened, which is what, like seven or eight years ago. So that there really was really no mention of Aubrey really until Q started talking about her in Survivor 46. And I do think that that's a little bit of a butterfly effect of like Q's on the season. And we know that Q votes out Mariah because of that. She reminds him of Aubrey and that's her favorite player. And now Q's on the season.

[00:19:47] And I have to think that that was on the mind of the producers when it's like, oh, who else could we bring in? Like, oh, what about Aubrey? Like, that's a selling point in her favor. So you think Q kind of like brought back Aubrey, the fact that she was this or brought her back into the consciousness? We know she was on the bubble. And I asked her about this. I was like, Aubrey, were you an alternate? She told me, no, she was not an alternate. She was cut from the cast and then re-added back into the cast.

[00:20:11] So she might have been maybe, you know, like if not the 24th person, like in that final conversation of people that they were deciding to. I do think that, okay, well, how's Q going to react to Aubrey in this? I mean, they put them on the same starting tribe also, you know. So you think that that was probably also a factor. So, you know, I think it's give Aubrey all of the credit for what she did in the actual season.

[00:20:38] But I do think that there were also some factors that played in her favor to her ultimately getting into the cast of Survivor 50. Listen, Survivor is all about luck. And like the biggest piece of luck is getting cast and then who you're cast with. I mean, look, I think like especially post-merge, I think Aubrey played the game she needed to do, right? Like I think she played, she was very deliberate in the game she played. And I think that's all you can ask of someone, right? Like is to like, are you playing a winning game? Yeah.

[00:21:07] And not like, do I like what a winning game means today? Like that's sort of like an unfair standard. But like is, did Aubrey like very self-consciously play the game to like a winning game? Like absolutely. Yeah. I so wish that you could be like a spectator to be like a fly on the wall or like one of the producers standing by where when this is happening on the beaches of Fiji and you're like a field producer. Right. Are you watching this going on?

[00:21:35] Like Aubrey's getting hot at the right time. Aubrey's rising. Like boy, they're not paying attention to Aubrey. And I just, I so wonder if it's something that you can see when it's happening or is it just something that you could only really put together when you're watching it on television? Well, especially because like she's a solo operator. So it's like, it's not like you see some alliance and they're like, you know, it's not like, like, you know, with me, with me and JT, they're like, oh, look, they're over there doing their thing.

[00:22:03] You know, like, like we were doing a thing. We were two people doing a thing together with her. She's just like, she kind of like really did it all by herself. And so, yeah, like, can you tell that she's getting hot or I mean, you know, apparently all they do. I mean, not all they do, but like, you know, one of their big sources of conversation is just like what's going on with the contestants? Who's who's doing what? So I'm sure like with this obsessive focus, they maybe I, you know, I did it early. Steven, watching Aubrey, she ends up being she's a losing finalist in her first time out. She comes back.

[00:22:33] She has less than ideal experiences. Then after a long layoff, she comes back and ultimately wins the game. Has this caused you to reconsider coming back to Survivor for a future season that you could be the new Aubrey? No, absolutely not. I these joints, these old joints can't can't handle that. No, let's not go.

[00:22:57] If it's with you, Rob, or with JT, like you or JT, there's like a pair season, you know, then I would. Okay, well, fine, let's go. Yeah, I would do it. But they're not going to cast us together. They would never do that. Well, the problem is they'll break us up. That's the problem. That's why we have to win out. You know, we got to get back together. You know, the other contestants, we can't have the know, you know, can't have those. Do you think we'll be on the same tribe? Or do you think that? No, for sure. Not for sure. We're bringing the same energy. But then on the other hand, like there's a lot to that, you know, like, oh, put those two in the tribe. You know, like they can comment on what's going on around them.

[00:23:27] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. They would always ask me, like, who is the fishy? They're not always on the same page. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You brought up Jonathan. I'd love to get your take on Jonathan, who, you know, obviously we saw that he was distraught after the finale. If you listened to any of his exit press, he was still processing everything that happened.

[00:23:56] Now, you've been in this experience of you, you know, came up short in a final tribal council. I think you had a better sense of it's unclear to me if Jonathan knew he was going to lose or not. But I think even if you know, you know, you still kind of like hope. Right? Yeah. So maybe he was hoping. I do think that the bigger thing was the initial night. I do think that the crowd was very pro-Tiffany, especially at the final five.

[00:24:26] Right. Look, I have to say, I saw a lot of criticism for Jonathan and his like angry takes and like how he's like, you know, people can say whatever they want on the internet. I kind of feel like as a reality TV contestant, the price you pay for getting cast is bringing emotional authenticity to the experience. Like your job out there, the price is to be honest about what you're experiencing and feeling.

[00:24:52] And I love that Jonathan was honest and he's like mad and bitter and angry and blaming everyone. Like how much like more truthful and real is that from him and for him to be like, oh, Aubrey did a great job. I came up short. Like I'll get him next time. You know, like who wants to see that like polite BS that like anybody I could, I could script those answers for Jonathan now. You know, I want like Jonathan's angry, emotional truth like that. I feel like is him being a good reality TV contestant. I mean, obviously like I wouldn't do that myself. Right.

[00:25:21] Like I would, I would be like, oh, he played a great game. Bravo. He deserves it. But as a viewer and as a, like a reader and a listener of this media, that's what, that's what I want to hear. Yeah. I think that Jonathan really has come from more of a place of like, I don't understand this more so than a place of like, he hasn't called people out.

[00:25:45] You know, he's, he's not gone to like a Russell place with all of this of like, you know, talking about this is a bad person or anything like that. Like, I think he, he really is struggling with, I don't understand why I didn't win. I did everything that I could have. What else did you want from me? Right. And in some ways I think that was maybe the flaw in his game was it was like, this is the thing I am going to do to win. Right. Like he is playing this very meticulous game.

[00:26:15] Here's my checklist. Right. Exactly. Like, and then there was not, and again, like I thought he did a very good job. Like I thought he, throughout the season I was saying that he played a very, like what I thought was like a classic kind of old school game of survivor. Like getting the numbers, building a consensus and, you know, targeting the person with a vote. It seems like he had a lot of alliances, you know, that weren't even featured, like his one with Joe and Rizzo, which apparently was this like secret alliance. But, you know, I, yeah, it maybe felt a little mechanical to people, right? Like at the end. Yeah.

[00:26:43] And it's almost like you want to kind of award that like underdog with a surprise maneuver versus like this person who's played this dominant strategic game throughout. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, could be, you know, is it a bug or a feature of the new era in terms of that's kind of what people are looking for? For at the end, I think that Jonathan came in with a mentality of like, well, I beat you. So now you have to vote for me. And the jury is like, well, I'll do what I want. I don't have to do anything. Right.

[00:27:13] I think that's, I mean, it was almost like a Mike. I mean, like, I'm sure this comparison has been made many, many times, but like the Mike Marianne thing where like it was, Mike was like so much the more dominant figure. Like, yeah, he almost didn't like fight for it as hard. He's like, well, obviously I've won this thing. Yeah. Like, um, I think that was also, and I'd have to go back and rewatch the final travel accounts. But I think that Mike was also, uh, got a little bit, uh, hung up on the, the coach type thing where he was talking about like, okay, I played very honorably and with integrity. And people are like, well, hold on. You lied to me. You lied to me.

[00:27:41] And Jonathan didn't necessarily do that, but I think he was trying to say, but no, but I got you out and I made you get mad. And I did, uh, like all, and he was really pointing out to, here's the things that I did, but it wasn't necessarily the type of things, you know, uh, the, uh, you know, you tracked more flies with honey type approach that, you know, Aubrey did of like, Hey, I, and she had such a great story and you knew she was going to be great. Uh, Aubrey is like, she didn't do it as much in this season.

[00:28:09] But Aubrey at one point was like the queen of metaphors that really, especially in the thirties, in the era in which she played, it really was starting to be like the, the metaphor era of survivor. And, you know, Aubrey, you know, famously talked about like, uh, this is the Oregon trail. You know, she had, uh, you know, so many of them over the course of her career, she was going to always be able to really tell a great story at the final travel council. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Yeah. And look, I mean the D thing I saw, you know, we all, you know, Jonathan criticizing D, um, or, you know, for, for voting for Aubrey, even though they never played a day together, like literally in Jonathan's final tribal council speech, he talked about emotionally manipulating her to get upset. You know, I mean like, look, what is good strategy? Like what is good tactics? We all say that the Eric Reichenbach move is one of the best moves ever in survivor.

[00:29:01] And that was emotional manipulation. So like, I think that's fair game in the game, but you can't then expect that person to come back and vote for you. Like that's a negative, like, even if you don't like, that's a negative vote against you. Well, I wonder if there's a couple of things here because, um, that Jonathan, I do believe was operating under the like Todd Herzog. Hey, uh, you were, you were so good. That's why I had to get you out philosophy.

[00:29:29] Right. And I wonder if the meta has shifted at all where I think that, you know, we see Cochran also be working under that same, where he kind of turns Malcolm around. And I do wonder if that at some point, and I don't know if, when exactly we could pinpoint the shift happens, is that not the ideal way to win a final tribal council of you were. Oh, that's interesting.

[00:29:53] You were so good. I had to get, I had to get you out as opposed to really getting the, the jurors to see themselves in you that your, your victory is their victory. But how do you, how would Jonathan have done that? Like how, what would that mean for Jonathan? I, so that's, uh, that's his problem. That's his problem. Uh, you know, he asked me when we did the, the exit interview, he's like, uh, you know, Mr. Rob, what do I do? How do I, how do I do this?

[00:30:21] And I do think that one of the things that I said to him was like, you know, I think it's very hard for you as somebody who is big that I think that part of the ethos of the show is that the underdog is who the jurors in the audience root for. And I think it's very hard for you to ever be seen as the underdog. I do think that that's a unique problem for, uh, and not to say that Jonathan did a great job in the final tribal council.

[00:30:46] He obviously didn't. And I think that the area in which he needs to work on the most is the social game. But I think it is a unique challenge for him to, uh, to, to win in a final tribal council. Do you think, you know, we've seen Jonathan saying like every day for the past four years, I have been training for this, you know, thinking about this, trying to improve.

[00:31:06] Do you think the next time he comes out, he'll have lost 60 pounds and be wearing glasses and train under a Cochran? Yeah. I think that he really needs to spend time with, uh, some of the people that are the real like social players, like spend some time with, uh, a Michelle, spend some time with a Gabler and like a Cody, you know, these people who are sort of just like effortlessly charismatic.

[00:31:34] Where the, the people that were around them just really enjoy their company. And I think that that would probably be the first, like, like, I think he's kind of like, he can be silly. I think sometimes, but I think that he's generally like a serious guy. He's serious. And even when he like, and there is like, I mean, you know, there is that sense of like, like, you know, yeah, he's just too serious. I don't really have a better way to say it than that. It just always seems so earnest. And it's like, you know, there's like, yeah.

[00:32:01] Even a Rick Devins where Rick is having fun, uh, and his experience. And of course it rubs Joe the wrong way during the season, but Rick is, you know, having fun 99% of the time while he's playing survivor. And I don't know for Jonathan, if he's always having fun when he's out there. You want to give it to that person who like seems joyful or emotional, maybe. I mean, honestly, like maybe it's, even if it's not like fun, like just to like bring more of his emotional self forward, you know, Aubrey gave like a very teary speech.

[00:32:28] You know, I, I don't know if we got, did Jonathan give some tears? You know, you gotta pay the, the salt tax. Especially after the votes were read. I think that, uh, he did get emotional at that point. But I feel like if he showed more of the emotional side of himself and more vulnerability, then like that would go a long way to puncturing this sort of like, I am, you know, six foot 12, seven feet tall, um, and weigh 600 pounds. And like, you know, and.

[00:32:52] Yeah, that's a good point of, I wonder if there's a flip for him and not to make it so that it's so calculated, but you know, I'm so big, I'm so strong. But like, uh, like he said with me, do you think I like being the big guy? Like, uh, and I wonder if that maybe letting people, you know, uh, see the vulnerable side of him at all could be the type of thing. Maybe it's not at the final travel council. Like maybe it's during the game. He lets people in a little bit more.

[00:33:21] It's just, I think it's, he, he wasn't that far away from a win. Like if, if Joe wins some motion and you know, we, we get to a final three with Rizzo and Jonathan. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's a, I've said it's a Mr. Beast coin flip and I've actually like, I said, I thought Rizzo had it, but I do wonder if that, you know, some of the things that we hear you say now. Oh, sorry. No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, finish your thought.

[00:33:48] I don't want to, no, I kind of, I've, I was counting the votes on this from prior to this final tribal council of Joe Rizzo, Jonathan. And I thought that Rizzo had it, but I do think that there might be a world where that Rizzo has rubbed a couple more people the wrong way where with, you know, that obviously Jonathan has his base at where Chrissy and Stephanie and coach that he has three.

[00:34:16] They're not going anywhere. Um, could he, could he, uh, we know Ozzy is not voting for Rizzo. Ozzy is down on Rizzo. So I think that Ozzy becomes a Jonathan voter in that scenario, unless Sari could really reel him in. Um, uh, you know, and you do wonder like, uh, that without Aubrey there, like does some of these swing voters end up going more to Jonathan, you know, could, could Rick vote for Jonathan over Rizzo? Yeah.

[00:34:44] I bet that Rick, I would put money that Rick would vote Jonathan over Rizzo and maybe Christian and Christian too. I just think that Rizzo like comes off. I mean, like, obviously we see the game Rizzo's playing. I just think he comes off as this like lazy, cocky kid. Um, and you know, that's what every person in their exit press has said was we didn't know, right? Like we didn't know he was playing this great game. I think, you know, if he shows up at tribal councils, like I was manipulating all of you. Like, yes, that's not, that doesn't fly. If people don't already believe that. Yes.

[00:35:12] Um, I also think that Rizzo could have had an exceptional final tribal council. I think he would actually be really good in that spot, but with the damage done where you hear people say that he was talking about himself as a legend and that was kind of a turnoff during the course of the season. So I really think it would have been a, uh, a knockdown drag out battle between Jonathan and Rizzo in the, if they made it to the finals. Yeah.

[00:35:40] Although probably, I think it would have been a, I think it would have been a runaway for Jonathan. Honestly, but I'm not sure if we get to that scenario because I think that then if Joe wins some motion, who's making the fire? I mean, I think is Aubrey beating Rizzo in the fire? Oh God. Oh, you know what? They probably bring Rizzo to the final three and then Jonathan destroys Aubrey in the fire. Jonathan destroys Aubrey in fire. I think it's probably right. But Jeff spoils it. Yeah. Well, how did you feel?

[00:36:06] So would you say that I, you know, the thing that I've heard some people say, which I don't believe that this was part of Aubrey's winners at it, that Jeff deliberately spoiled, uh, Jonathan's big moment at final tribal to, you know, make Aubrey's win more palatable. Now, is this a joke? Did people really say that? No, nobody's saying that. Nobody's saying that. But I have seen that people said, oh no, this was, this was on purpose. This was a inside job and they did this on purpose so that they never have to do the live reunion again.

[00:36:37] Listen, they can say like, I did not think that that was a true live reunion as I'm sure many didn't, but, um, that's nuts. Like not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes people just screw up. Yeah. I mean, they could, Jeff has that much juice. Like he could just say, we're not doing a live reunion ever again. Right. He doesn't have to stage. They didn't need a motive. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe they do it just for like, I mean, the only like slightly Machiavellian version is they do it just for like the press of it all, which it is like, it was a big press moment. Right.

[00:37:07] I mean, like that probably brought more attention to the finale than the finale itself, but. And it was fun. Right. He handled it beautifully. Like I really thought he did not know what was happening. Like from watching it, I truly believed that Jeff had not figured out what was happening while it was happening. Yeah. A live TV hit. People are like, oh no, wait, they haven't aired fire yet. He's like, what? Like processing. I've got the cameras on me. I've got to fill air. I've got to push to commercial. Let's just push to commercial and I'll figure it out. So they go to break.

[00:37:34] And then did you watch the video where Jeff is like on the stage in the, in the commercial break trying to figure out? So what happened? What do you like? Oh, I haven't seen that. No, that's fine. And they find out. He's like, oh, I effed up. Oh, oh, okay. Okay. That good. Not good. So yeah, I, I, I do not think that you could even imagine that this was like an intentional plan. No. No.

[00:38:02] Um, and also, um, yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's nothing else to say about that. Yeah. But it was good. I mean, he handled it beautifully. It was fine. It was fun. It was like very memorable. Certainly like the most memorable part of the finale. Maybe the season. I mean, I think it's between that and it's a coin flip between that and Mr. Beast. And the coin flip. Yeah. That's very funny. Oh, poor Rick got eclipsed. Yeah. What'd you think of them? Like giving out gag gifts to people during the crazy because like with Ceree, it was

[00:38:31] like, I mean, again, like, I know I'm like shredding well-trod territory here, but, um, Ceree's like, you are so emotional. You know, you are a spirit of survivor franchise. Yeah. Spirit of survivor. We had this one and one of a kind. Oh, Ozzy, you get a t-shirt that owns you. You loser. Like what the hell guys. Yeah. And then, uh, Rick got the coin. Right. That was great. And why did they have to do that? Mostly the coin was cool.

[00:39:00] Like, I feel like that's a very cool piece of memorabilia. Um, why do they have to, you know, why do they have to troll Ozzy like that? Like this poor guy, like if anything, like give him something that boosts him up after this, like quite, you know, quite public flame out. Yeah. What could they have given Ozzy? I don't know. Like, uh, you know, something that said Oscar or something. Oh, give him an Oscar. Give him like, like. We're going to give you an award. We're giving you the Oscar for the most improved game from where you've come the furthest.

[00:39:29] We want like lifetime achievement award for you, Oscar. Like that would be great. You know what? Even in like these, like these moments of failure, like you're bringing your true self and we could never ask anything more for you than, than to always give us your authentic self. Not like, oh, we love you. Like, that's just like, you know, in front of 10 million people, like in this extremely vulnerable place. And he's just seen Sari get the spirit of survivor where he's probably thinking like, wow, this is going to be awesome. I'm going to get some special thing that commemorates my, you know, role in this franchise. And it's a t-shirt.

[00:39:59] I mean, at least he had the wherewithal to be like, oh great. I get a shirt, you know, like, thank you for like, at least knowing to just like, you know, be sarcastic about it. Yeah. I wonder what, instead of the live reunion, because it seems like that survivor is uneasy about this. And, uh, I think we have a question about this also. Let me see if I can, if I can find it. Um, but should they do instead of a live reunion show, what about an award show after the season

[00:40:28] is over where they come out and you know, it's the, it's very similar because obviously I think it's the, the open forum is obviously what they wanted to. Uh, yeah. Here's the question from Ben Gregory. Do you think the reason they didn't have a more dynamic reunion was due to the heavy discourse throughout the season about confessional counts and pregame alliances topics they wanted to avoid? Um, not to put my thumb on this guy. I do think that they, uh, in a different, in addition to it being like herding cats to

[00:40:57] have 24 people on the stage mic'd up that I do think that there would have been just Jeff asked a question, people jumping in pills. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, like, just like you made that pregame alliance. Just like, yeah. How come I didn't get more confessionals as like, uh, like I think it could have just devolved, but you'd hate, you'd hate to see like conflict between reality TV contestants on a reality TV show. Yes. Uh, that who knows what they're going to say. And also who knows how to control it. Once the, once the genie.

[00:41:25] Well, that's, I guess the more of the, but it's just like the turn out. Yeah. I don't know. That's a really interesting point. I feel like those things are always pretty buttoned up though. I mean, you occasionally get the like, oh, you know, like, you know, it's for the most part, I've never seen that happen. Yeah. I don't know. I think that's what they were trying to avoid. And the reason why they did it this way. But what do you think about my award show idea? I mean, we kind of had it with America's tribal council where it was kind of like an award show where that you could have shown clips, you know, get everybody there.

[00:41:54] People are nominated for awards as the, you get the best blind side, you know, that let people come out. They win their awards. They get to give like a little speech. What if they could do an auction style too? Like you can choose between these two awards. One of these words is, is, is danger and the other is delights. Yeah. Uh, one of these wards is the spirit of survivor and the other is the. Yeah. And then, yeah, you give it like somebody you want to give an award there. They come out, they give their little speech for a couple of minutes. Yeah. I like that. Sure.

[00:42:24] I mean, listen, uh, it couldn't be worse than this, which was like nothing. This was the worst version because there was nothing, there was no content. Like we didn't get to see the, you know, the people interact. What you want is just like, I love reunion shows. I watch reunion shows for shows that I don't even watch. Like, it's just like everyone's sitting there. They're kind of like, you know, you know, talking about what happened. They're sort of like a little, you know, they're their normal selves, like their real life. That's always the appeal is like seeing these people go from like the starving on the island version of themselves. Like, Oh, here I am dressed up for like a normal, I'm a normal person again.

[00:42:53] Like, I love that transformation. It's like, like, you know, Jeff's so into like the birthing metaphor, but this is kind of like the rebirthing, you know? Um, you like get birth on survivor. You have this like crazy transformational experience. You lose, you know, 60 pounds and then you come back. And this is the finale is when you're sort of like brought back into civilization. Like here I am as like a person again, like this was part of my life. I've processed it. I'm moving forward and taking the lessons I learned into my new life. But I feel like that's an important capstone just from the whole like spiritual journey of the show.

[00:43:23] But in the same way that you want more reunion shows, you watch reunion shows for things that you don't always watch. Like, I think that the Bravo reunion show model is that, Hey, we're bringing these people together. And now let's just like rehash the conflict that was going on. Whereas the survivor reunion show, I think by design. And I think that this is what, you know, Jeff and or the production wants is that they want closure. They want healing and, and, and they actually don't want to reopen old wounds where maybe

[00:43:53] back in the earlier days of the show, they were looking for conflict at the reunion show. They went out of their way in this reunion show. Uh, this was a conflict free night. I mean, there was no like, Hey, Aubrey, Genevieve, you guys good. You know, that was like a classic staple of like, Hey, uh, Christian, how are you and Mike white? You know, we're, we didn't explore Ozzie. Are you still mad at Rizzo?

[00:44:18] That now question was not asked to one person of is anybody still on bad terms with anybody? And so I think that survivor really wants to, it's the, it's not about the prize, even though it was $2 million, it's about the experience. What did you get out of it? Everybody's good. Pre jury. I know you have a lot to say, but let's just hold up your Corona and everybody is good. And let's just like paper over any sort of like unpleasantness that anybody might've had. Yeah.

[00:44:47] I mean, I will say too, that, you know, media and especially digital media have exploded since survivor was doing reunions. And there is a lot more of that that you can get. Like if you want it, it's there, right? You can get all the interviews. You can get the video interviews. You can have like this whole wealth of, of like discussion and debate that exists in a way that it didn't even like five or 10 years ago. And certainly in the world that like everybody is online, if you want access to more of that, I guess it's there.

[00:45:12] So like, you don't necessarily need to have people say they're sort of like one tagline thing when you've just gotten, you know, 30 versions of that. And I know that survivor has like a, they are going for, I'm trying to say the right words, uh, an aspirational view of society of like, this is like, we're bringing out the best in

[00:45:39] people, but it like, we're not being real. You know, uh, people also are tuning in because we want to see some conflict. That's okay. We can handle it as viewers. In fact, it's what we want. So we don't have to necessarily be like lowest common denominator and like manipulate things that didn't happen. But the, for the things that did happen, like, I think it's okay to talk about them. I think that people want to see more of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's part of life.

[00:46:09] You know, I've got to say having a two kids, all children's viewing now, it's all people hugging each other. They're all collaborating. They're working together to solve like trivial problems. Oh, the lights are out. We've let's work together to like put the, get the power back on. When I grew up, people were fighting with swords. Like, that's what I watched. I watched, you know, like you may, I mean, it's just like, you know, the freaking Tom and Jerry, they were trying to kill each other. And they prepared you for what was going on in the world. Yeah. Or like, you know, like, yeah, exactly. Right.

[00:46:38] And, you know, we need more conflict on Survivor, just like we need Tom and Jerry back. I don't even know if we need more conflict in the actual show, but I think it's okay in the reunion when you bring people back together to address the conflict that happened in the show. Yeah. Right. Yes, exactly. Like that is a way to engage with it. No, I really do miss the reunion. Yeah. I honestly preferred the on location reunion to what we got, which I guess was, you know, the conspiracy theorists version of the point.

[00:47:08] This is like a little bit of a galaxy brain idea, but what if the reunion and they would never go for this? What if we brought in somebody else to host the reunion? Rosie! Okay. But I mean, okay, let's just say hypothetically, you brought in a different person. Rob Sestranino! So I'm not saying like, okay, hey, what about me? I would say yes. But like, it's like, I kind of feel like it would be a better product ultimately.

[00:47:37] And not to say anything, take anything away from Jeff as the host of the show, but I wonder if like it's just a different voice. And I think that Jeff has just so much control over everything that, you know, he would never could never go for that. You know, it's also like what, what his vision for everything is. And that's what you're getting in the reunion show. But in the same way of like, not to say that Traders is the best at this and Andy Cohen may not be necessarily the best reunion show host for the Traders. But I think that just having a different voice come in.

[00:48:04] And so it's not just necessarily, you know, here's like what I want everybody to say. I hear you. But like in general, and I actually think any, like probably is the best at being another person to come in. And, you know, obviously so close to the franchise and to the like, has some vision of behind the scenes. I feel like whenever that happens, it becomes even more formulaic. You know, the challenge does this all the time. They have other people come in. That person is really just like reading the script and reacting to the clips that are being aired.

[00:48:32] You know, and it almost feels like they lack the ability to dig deeper because they are not on on location because they don't have the intimacy. I feel like that's something that Jeff does have is like he knows what's happening. He knows the journey intimately. And so he's able to sort of like, you know, be even just like joke around in a way that like another host might feel like I got an hour live TV. I got to set up this clip. You know, those two did this thing. That one did that thing. You know, it feels very like scripted in a way. All right.

[00:48:59] Well, I don't think we're having any more live reunion, so we don't have to fix this problem. Yeah, but you'd be great. You would not have that problem as a live reunion. Steven, let's take some of these questions that I have for you about the season as we look back. And so, okay, this is from Brooklyn Zed says, I found season 50 to be way more fun week to week than season 40. If you also found it more fun, any thoughts about why that was? Yes.

[00:49:30] I am with you so much, Brooklyn Zed. I totally agree. Like the, I just thought it was really fun. And I think part of that was because the players were, seemed to be having more fun. I mean, you've got Rick out there. It was very fun. You know, Christian having a great time. I mean, Suri, obviously like, you know, 40 did feel more like a slog in some way. It was fun in the beginning.

[00:49:56] Now, again, some of this might be our worldview as the coronavirus pandemic really unfolded as the season went along. Were we having less fun? So we were having less fun. Um, but I also think that there was a darkness in season 40 where things did get very bleak towards, uh, the middle, like, uh, like post merge. I think that there was a, a bleakness of, uh, you know, people really like freezing out Jeremy.

[00:50:25] And there was like some not fun, you know, I think that Tony, uh, can be fun, but I think that's just coming down the stretch. Uh, you know, Ben's not having fun. Denise isn't having fun. Nick Wilson's not having fun. Like it's not necessarily like a, a warm and fuzzy group that you're watching, uh, towards, uh, the end of the game. There's everything that's going on at the edge, which is also bleak.

[00:50:51] So I, I do think that there was more done in season 50 to really try to incorporate this idea of people having fun from the contestants themselves, like Rick Devins to also the, uh, lightheartedness of Jeff being in the challenge. And I think that it was intentionally, uh, more of a, of a, I don't want to say celebration,

[00:51:17] but I think that there was a little bit more of a joyfulness added to this season. And there really was a surprise. You didn't really know what was going to happen week to week in a way that I thought, I mean, like, which could be very frustrating when something like the blood moon happens, but I also thought like, well, it could be fun. I really liked a lot of the twist. I thought the Paris twist was really good. And also now what's cool about the Paris twist is that now every time they have to split into pairs, they're going to be thinking, oh, are we going to like have to vote each other?

[00:51:45] Like, I feel like that adds a layer of complexity to a format thing. Um, do you think that a part of it is all not to be an apologist for the 26 day game, but I think that the 39 day game does become such a, yeah, more of a slog, uh, such a war of attrition, uh, that is it easier to keep it more lighthearted in the 26 day game? Right. Maybe so, because like, there's like, like by the end of that 39 day game, like your body is just like, you know, done, right? Like you're just like trying to like stay conscious. You know?

[00:52:15] And then, so you sort of like get up, you sort of stagger over to the voting booth and you write someone's name down. I think you're probably right that like the 26 day game is a little bit more and it's a, it's a more frenetic game now. I mean, you know, obviously there's, there's cons to that, but, um, maybe, maybe pros as well. Brooklyn's ed, um, whom almost as a good, uh, you know, a great friend of, I guess we said, yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is from Taylor Gavin, 1938. Do you think that players past seasons should be as widely considered for a win?

[00:52:44] Jonathan played a better season, but because he didn't have the same past he lost. Is that fair? Uh, first off, uh, I think that this is a loaded question. Cause I don't know if, uh, I agree with every part of the, the question. Um, I, let me take it in pieces that do you think that players past seasons should be considered for a win? I mean, should be, is it such an, it's such an impossible thing. You can't like this.

[00:53:10] Has it happened before where people have voted for a player based on their past body of work? It's like a lifetime achievement award. Um, that's a good question. I, I mean, you know, I feel like people vote for you so much based on their whole perception of you, right? Yes. Like so much, like Sandra wins heroes versus villains partially because she's a mom and a military, you know, mom, you know, wife. And like, you know, obviously she played a good game too, but like so much of who of,

[00:53:37] of that final vote is based on the whole, you know, nebulous, you know, group of perceptions that people have about you. And I do think that the past, your past performance really influences that, but I'm trying to think I would say, I don't think that a lot of Sandra's win in heroes versus villains is based off of past performance. I would say that I'm not sure everybody on the jury saw Sandra's first season of survivor before they ended up playing in heroes versus villains. And it, this is not the new era, you know, these players, uh, are we sure, are we sure

[00:54:06] coach watched Pearl islands before? It was hard. Like you had to get DVDs back then. I'm not, nothing. Are we sure Amanda Kimmel, uh, had seen heroes versus villains? Uh, you know, so I, I, I think that it was in, in that unique case, I think that there was also another past winner that was there. So it wasn't like, okay, we're not voting for her cause she's won before. I think it was, uh, you know, some pro Sandra votes, some anti Russell poverty votes. I don't think in that case, I wonder if Tony's win.

[00:54:34] I mean, Tony played a great game in winners at war, but I also think that, uh, well, they had all won before. So it wasn't like that they were voting for. So, so I don't even think that he had a reputation as being this strategic mastermind. How did we let him get to the end? I think that might've been considered. So, and the way that Michelle didn't write, like nobody had this, people's perception of Michelle was she didn't necessarily deserve her win the first time. Right. Versus like Tony, like, Oh, one of the most dominant games ever. So like, of course that's coloring your, your perception of, of the people saying that.

[00:55:03] So I'm trying to think of, uh, people who play, like, I don't think that in second chance you guys were voting, but, but Jeremy, but Jeremy plug, I mean, coming off of what he did in San Juan del Sur, we got to give him the win. Um, yeah, I, I don't think that was part of it, but I think, but, but again, like so much of what, what, you know, Jeremy played an amazing game. I do think like he was awarded for his game, but it's also like, here's a dad. Yes. Fireman, but it wasn't, he's got a son coming. He's past resume. Right. But I mean, a lot of it, but like every, I think it all kind of feeds in, you know,

[00:55:32] and certainly your past is determinative of how, whether or not people vote for you. You know, like everyone thought I thought I was a, uh, uh, you know, devious threat coming into Cambodia, but like, you know, yeah, it's not, wasn't fair. It wasn't a fair assessment. But I do think that this win for Aubrey had a little bit baked into the, the way that like an Oscar vote might happen where it's like, okay, she's never gotten this. And this is, we are recognizing a, uh, uh, the, yes, this, like you wouldn't give like,

[00:56:01] uh, whatever actor, the, the Oscar for, they were in a crappy movie. It's like, yeah, this was a good movie, but, and also they'd never gotten it before. So yeah, that's, it's always that, right. It's always that sense of like, yeah, like that they did it good. And also like, there's sort of a sense of having deserved it. Honestly, I'm fine with it. Yeah. And then to say, uh, Jonathan played a better season, but didn't, uh, didn't win because he didn't have the same past. Again, I don't think that that's the only reason I think that that is part of it. Right.

[00:56:29] I mean, and again, like we've seen a lot of these pairings. I mean, honestly, I mean, again, like the Aubrey Michelle pairing is like the perfect counter example. Yeah. And I think as Christian talked about in the final travel council, the narrative warfare, uh, Aubrey was able to, you know, tell that story to tell her narrative. Yes. Yes. And, and I did throughout did a great job of that. Um, someone messaged me like, should Jonathan have used the final, um, for tribal council to

[00:56:55] more talk about what a threat he was or something like, you know, as a way, like he never really played up his threat level to the jury in a way that maybe he could have, you know, so he didn't really like lay the groundwork. Whereas like, I feel like Aubrey was kind of consistently doing a good job of telling her story throughout. Yeah. I think that the block of swing voters that Jonathan really needed to get was like Rick, Christian, Emily. And I'm not sure necessarily what he could have said.

[00:57:22] It sounded like that maybe Emily was maybe leaning more towards Joe than Jonathan. Really? I mean, she talked about how that there was power in Joe's and Joe told me that she was just being nice. She's being nice. Yeah. Okay. You know? Yeah. I don't know. That was my takeaway. Yeah. You know, like finding like, you know, that was sort of like, you know, you're intractable and hard to work with, but like there's power in that. Yeah. But I feel like that Emily is typically known for saying what she means. Like, I don't think.

[00:57:52] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's a kinder. Uh, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe you're right. Like maybe I'm misjudging Emily. You're absolutely right. You know? Um, I do feel like, I feel bad for Joe. I mean, like truly like he seems like such a wonderful, decent guy and, uh, a hard, hard season in the top edit. It really did sort of like, you know, they really did pile on him at times. But I thought he handled everything with so much grace in terms of, you know, where Jonathan has, there's been so much discourse about how Jonathan has handled it. Joe.

[00:58:20] And again, maybe this is like the benefit of that. He's already done this before this happened to him. He's like, I talked to him and he's like, I, he's like, I'm great. Like, listen, I, I've, you know, I, I've, I finished in the, in the top three, two seasons, never been voted out of this game. Like you say what you want about me, but I, I feel pretty damn good about how I did. And I'm in a new Tyler Perry show. Like maybe, maybe like sort of like, uh, makes it a little sweeter. Yeah. He really did seem to have perspective on all of this. And did he get any votes in the last one?

[00:58:50] He did. He got Cedric's vote in season 48. Yeah. So, and he seemed like he was having a hard time during the course of the season where there was people, although Joe blocked me and people were sort of feeling like that Joe was going through it, but I don't know. Something happened to him before he didn't go down to Ecuador. Did he? Some plant medicine. I don't know. He seemed, because he seemed like he was doing great. Yeah. Um, I got to say that, um, I'm very pro blocking.

[00:59:18] I don't block a lot of people myself, but I feel like if you want to block someone, block them. You don't, you don't owe someone, you know, their, their, their nonsense commentary on social media. Yeah. You know, I have rarely blocked people in my social media history. If somebody is just like harassing you, I do feel like a block away, but maybe I'm, I'm in a different position in terms of like who I am in terms of like, uh, you know, I don't mind like a hard question, but if you're going to like outright harass me, you

[00:59:48] could be get blocked. But I would just say if someone's impolite to me, I'm like, I don't, why would I want this? Like I come, this is my like way to have like, this is my fun. You know, like I'm, I'm coming on social media to like to chat and have fun. Like, this is not my work. Like, I don't have any obligation here. Like if someone's like saying something mean, like why, why would I choose to like continue to like let that person in my life? I love that for you. Unfortunately, maybe that's where my wiring is off. I feel like I struggle with that. Yeah. Um, okay.

[01:00:14] Let's see what else did Aubrey consciously deciding that the players are the only audience that matters contribute to are not overwhelming excitement for this result. Again, I disagree with the thesis. I think there were people that were overwhelmingly excited for the result. Um, Aubrey told me that she had, uh, done some, some work on, uh, prior to coming in.

[01:00:40] One of the things she picked up was that the jurors, the other players are the ultimate audience, not the audience at home. The ultimate audience in what context? In terms of that, those are the people you need to win over, not necessarily the other, uh, participants. That's great. Or the audience at home. That's very smart. Like, I felt like I was always like, like stuck at tribal. Cause I was trying to speak to like the jury, speak to the players left in the game, speak to the audience at home, speak to Jeff. And like, how do you like thread that needle?

[01:01:08] But it's very smart to just be like, nope, it's the other players. Like those will be the people I'm performing for. That's very like clarifying. I wonder if that's something that she ultimately picked up from like a Sarah Luceno. Right. Right. Maybe so. Yeah. Sarah played a great game. And Sarah played a great game. And I think that the people who are around Sarah, like this is one of my favorite things to talk about. Like people, some people who have in-person charisma and then there's people who have on camera charisma and not just like on survivor.

[01:01:37] Uh, but this is like all over the place where, uh, I think that Sarah and I think that Gabler are two people that, uh, almost universally people who are around them in real life rave that can't get enough of this person. Sarah especially, like people are like crazy, very discerning people. Like some of my friends who are the toughest critics are like crazy about Sarah. Yes. And then you see her on camera and you're like, what? Yeah. She doesn't have the on-camera riz, but she has it in person in spades. I've never met her.

[01:02:07] Or if I have, only briefly. And there's, but there's also people who are the opposite where, and I'm sure you've met these people where on camera, like, oh my God, like, uh, I love this person. And then you spend time with them. Like, oh, this is, this is, uh, was not fun at all. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They're performers. And, you know, there's a few lucky few, uh, like us who have both. Amazing in any context. Amazing.

[01:02:36] In person and on camera. Yeah. I mean, those are the select, the select few. Yeah. Um, but that's, that's probably like a siree. Yeah. Right. You know, the audience loves them and then the people around them love them. Yeah. Yeah. An amazing confessionalist. But I think that when, when we're struggling, like I, I don't get it. Like, how did this person, like, why did they vote for this person?

[01:02:58] Like, I think that, that it typically is that they just have that in-person aura where they, they just like, uh, suck you in, but that it just doesn't always translate to the television. I gotta say, I've corresponded with Gabler on social media. He's a very positive, wonderful guy. Like, I have just like, all this like positivity and like kindness, just like, I mean, like whenever he like comments on my posts or just sends me like a random, you know, DM about like something that I posted, it's just like always very nice. Yeah.

[01:03:27] If he's ever at an event, like, uh, he just like has like a real like intensity where, you know, you sort of shake his hand and like, okay, I get it. I get it with Gabler. Yeah. All right. Let's see. Uh, we've got, uh, the boomerang idol was the worst, most influential twist. Screw Genevieve, Christian and Ciri agree or disagree? Yes. I think that's probably right. I mean, the, the, the blood moon sucked too, like a lot, like really sucked.

[01:03:56] Like we lost Genevieve, Colby and Camilla in that, in the blood moon. Um, and that, you know, sort of was, so, I mean, I guess the, the boomerang idol and the, the blood moon are sort of both responsible for, for Genevieve's ouster. But, um, so I, I mean, that was really influential too. Cause Colby was ahead of his alliance. Genevieve was like super ensconced in a lot of alliances and obviously it was going to go out at Aubrey. Like how could like losing Genevieve not, you know, not be more, uh, as soon as one of the biggest turning points of the season. But, um, the, yes, the boomerang idol really was not good.

[01:04:25] Do you feel like never played out? Is it results oriented though? Like, is there a world where it could have been good? I mean, that's tough. That's an, is there a world where it could have been good? Like doomed always. Was it always going to suck? I don't know. I mean, there's a world where like the problem was that people were separated from each other. So they never really had the chance to play with the boomerang idol. So like, you can't like the, the premise is I send this boomerang idol to someone else. I blind send them.

[01:04:52] I get the, the, the idol back, but they like, you know, they didn't really have the opportunity that much. Genevieve was gone by the time she was on a beach with, um, Rizzo or she was not on a beach with Rizzo and Ozzy. Um, and you know, then the, the Christian Aubrey one, it was like, I, they could have done it. I think there was some reason they didn't do it. Like, I think they thought about it. Um, anyway, um, the idols really were a non-factor in the season. Like the idea of the, the threat of the idols was more of a, you know, um, deciding factor

[01:05:21] in the season than actually anything that was going on with the idols. And I think that the Billie Eilish, uh, boomerang idol being non-transferable for some reason also really affected the gameplay. I guess it kind of has to be non-transferable because if you give it to someone and then does it go back to you if that person is voted out, like there's like weird mechanical stuff there, but, um, yeah, like that's a stupid, like that was just like the same thing with like the, um, whatever, with the, the, the inheritance. But why couldn't I play it on another person? Right. Like, yes. Yeah.

[01:05:51] I mean, that was the, that was the reason, right. That's so that's Sari got advantage again, right. It was because the, um, whatever it was, the, in the legacy advantage was not transferable. I feel like someone just like writes a rule, like they're like in their head, like, uh, is not transferable. You know, like just like feel like someone, someone's like, someone like PA is like getting in their, in their, in their vibes about like writing, writing the rules for this. And then they don't really think through the consequences of this era. The lawyers. Okay. Yeah. Uh, and then Ben Gregory wants to know that what can the open era do differently than the

[01:06:20] new era to promote the most entertaining gameplay while still being pure, uh, to the original game? I have opined a little bit about what I think, uh, the open era could mean. Uh, my, my, my, uh, synopsis is that, you know, Jeff this week talked about how he is at the FYC event and he talked about how, Hey, um, the game is impossible. There's no way to win the game. It's actually impossible. It's by design. We made it this way.

[01:06:49] And so, uh, there's no way if you win the game, it's a miracle, uh, for you to win the game. So I think that reading between the lines is like, Hey, there's no actual strategic way that you could play the game. And the only way to actually proceed forward is to go full devins. And we want people in the open era. We are encouraging that forget the big moves, take the big swings, take the risk, YOLO, go

[01:07:18] for it and go on the journey, you know, uh, flip the coin, go for it. Try to get the advantage because that's, that's the, actually the only, the only way to get through is to that. You can't plan for the game. Stop playing in the shadows, like get out there, go for it. Just what we all want. Um, so that, I mean, look, look, I mean, we've talked sort of ad nauseum about how having

[01:07:43] more twist heavy structure actually leads to more conservative last you play because you're inherently trying to like minimize risk and like maximize control. And like, why would you do some crazy thing? I guess there probably is some inflection point at which you have so little control that you might as well just like do whatever, maybe like societally where they're too. Um, but like, you know, like it's, it's like maybe they're just keeping on turning the dial

[01:08:12] until like, you know, until, uh, there we, people have no choice, but to play erratically. Yeah. Is that similar to your takeaway for what the open era could be? I kind of think so. Like if, if you have no idea what the next thing is, then maybe there is some like, which has sort of like been what we've been saying about the new era. Maybe there's some justification and like grabbing the thing, but then like, look what happened to Christian. I mean, like, you know, like that sucked.

[01:08:40] You know, you, why would you, why would you choose to go on a journey when the downside could destroy you and the upside will maybe marginally help you? I mean, if the powers are stronger, I mean, like we've talked about this too, like in other contexts, um, if the powers are stronger, then maybe it does sort of like force that more aggressive risk-taking play. Like maybe if there is a medallion of power out there, you go for it. Maybe go for it.

[01:09:04] And maybe that the quiet part is like, sure, you, you don't have to, but you won't do anything. You'll get purple. Yeah. You were on survivor, but were you on survivor? Uh, you had one confessional and we're not going to show you. And we're really gonna like that the hero of the story. I mean, would you rather have been Rick Devins in this season or would you have rather been, you know, I'm trying to think of, uh, and it's probably not fair to single out somebody.

[01:09:33] No, I would have rather be Aubrey and win the $2 million. Um, but I'm trying to think of like somebody who would be like comparable of somebody who was like a little bit more of, um, they didn't really take chances. Um, and I don't want to single anybody out from the cast. Cause I really, I don't think that there was like a real wallflower who didn't try to go for it in this season, but no, but I mean, I will say that, um, that it really would be Aubrey, right? Like the whole Aubrey's whole game was like, I'm not going to put myself out there. I'm not going to do a crazy thing.

[01:10:02] I'm going to play more conservatively. I'm going to stay under the radar because that's how I'm going to win. But she shot the moon and she hit it. You know, I'm trying to think maybe there's somebody like from survivor 49 of like, um, you know, somebody who was like a little bit more of a, a wallflower, like Alec, uh, in season 49. Who? I was thinking 48, Kyle. Well, Kyle was my point. He wasn't this flashy, crazy player or Mitch. Mitch maybe is the better example of like, okay, do you want to be, do you want to be

[01:10:31] Rick Devins or do you want to be Mitch? Like they both end up finishing in a pretty similar spot. Yeah. Right. Um, I think Mitch was, Mitch was fifth and, and Rick Devins was seventh. Uh, Mitch did better. Do I want to be Mitch? You know? So I think it's like, Hey, you know, uh, get your, get moving. Like go start going for these advantages. Take your swing. Right. Let's get voted out. All right.

[01:11:01] Well, Steven, this was a delight to catch up about everything, uh, season 50 and beyond. And, uh, we got, uh, so much stuff coming up. The wand off is, uh, coming up this Friday. There's a little, uh, tribe and I have spoken decal. Yeah. Yeah. On the sticker, a sticker on the guitar for wand off submissions. Get them in robin's website.com slash wand off last call for wand off submissions.

[01:11:27] And then we will get those, uh, talk to Dr. Christian Hubicki in Los Angeles. Uh, I have said, I have had incredible FOMO for not recording the book talk I did with Steven in Washington, DC, but I had my camera and recording equipment with us in LA. Look at this picture of your chest. I mean, look at the breadth of your shoulders and your chest. It was great in this pic. Yeah. Oh, we did. We had a great videographer, uh, in LA. So check that out. That's up on the YouTube channel.

[01:11:57] Uh, my conversation with Christian the day after the finale. And then last night we did club condo with Chappelle and, uh, check that out up on Patreon. I also talked to Marianne on Monday about, uh, Marianne's thoughts on Aubrey's game and her trip to the finale. So check that out as well. And then on Friday, I'll be back with more patron questions and answers. I think that one o'clock is going to be when our patron Q and a is.

[01:12:25] So I'll be back taking your questions live on Friday on Patreon. Uh, then, uh, this is, uh, Stevens. What do you have coming up? On June 7th, I'll be at the American writers festival, uh, in Chicago. So come on by. I'm on an interesting panel about, uh, humor and suspense. So if you are in Chicago and are interested in American writers, it's, I believe, oh, free admission. It says that right there. Uh, so it's free and just come by. I think my panel is two or two or 3 PM, but, uh, come on by. There's the suspense. You don't know.

[01:12:56] Get it started. And then, uh, that, that same weekend, if you're in New York city, come on out to the Tribeca film festival. We're going to be having a survivor panel with myself, Jonathan Penner, Sari, uh, among many others will be there at the Tribeca film festival. Tickets are at robinswebs.com slash Tribeca.

[01:13:15] And then has this incredible shirt that he's designed again with the wonderful Brian Malloy, who did my, um, surf dog shirt, but, uh, it's available only for one more day. It is no longer available. I mean, is this podcast going up today? Yeah. Tomorrow on May, on May 28th, it'll be as no, as when it will no longer be available. Uh, you can get this very fun shirt at www.devans.shop. I've heard from a lot of people who are like, we want that surf dog shirt. We missed the window. Like, can you bring it back? No, I'm not bringing it back.

[01:13:44] And if you want, so don't miss your opportunity to get this Devin shirt. You said, no, we're not bringing it back unless you want it. Is that what you said? Oh, no, no, no. I'm not bringing it back. Unless you know. Just like they can't bring that dog back. That they're not bringing the shirt back. Exactly. Once the dog is gone. That's right. Yeah, that's right. All right. Uh, anything else fun coming up for you? No, I mean just, you know, American writers festival and, uh, you know, going into hibernation over the summer while I wait for the next season. Yes. Uh, you watching anything fun?

[01:14:12] I have just been watching season two of Squid Game The Challenge. I'm almost at the end. Very much enjoying it. Yes. I'm loving it. Yeah. All right. What about you? Um, no, not really. Uh, like I, I've watched hacks recently. I watched a lot of hacks in my traveling. How are you enjoying it? I enjoy it. Yes. You know what I'm watching? I'm watching this long interview with, uh, JC Chasset and Lance Bass from, uh, NSYNC about their trajectory, which is very interesting. Why? I didn't know that that was of interest to you.

[01:14:40] Well, you know, NSYNC was, you know, big when we were, you know, it was just interesting to hear like these like, you know, obviously like this aging and faded, uh, you know, faded relevance is something that's very, you know, acutely interesting for me. So it feels like, yeah. So I feel like this is, you know, fascinating to hear them reflecting on their journey, you know, where it went wrong with Lou Pearlman. Wow. Yeah. I didn't know you had such an interest in it. Now, is it just NSYNC or is it all a boy band? For some reason, it's really NSYNC, you know, them especially. You know, I never really got into the Backstreet Boys as much. Yeah.

[01:15:09] I mean, obviously, you know, that Backstreet's Backstreet. Yeah, of course. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us, everybody. Take care. Good luck. Bye. Bye.

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