Rob and Stephen team up to recap the finale of Survivor 46![00:00:00] This is Amy Poehler. My new movie, Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2, is coming to theaters June 14th.
[00:00:05] And it's making me feel joy and sadness and anger. Definitely some disgust. Gross! And I think a little fear.
[00:00:12] But I'm also feeling these new emotions like anxiety, embarrassment, envy, and ennui.
[00:00:18] It's what you call the boredom. Okay that one was weird. It's gonna be the feel everything movie of
[00:00:23] the summer. Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested. Only in theaters
[00:00:28] June 14th. Get tickets now. The smartest guys around. Yeah! Yeah that's right. That beautiful song
[00:01:19] may be the last time you hear it for a couple of months until we get to Survivor 40 several.
[00:01:27] Whoa! Rob it's so great to see you. Look at Steven back from vacation. Yeah you look so well rested and tan.
[00:01:36] Definitely not either of those things. Not with like the 50 SPF. Are you kidding? Like I'm very
[00:01:41] Oh did you hear it? Steven's ready for 50. Steven's got 50 on the mind. Freudian slip.
[00:01:49] Yeah it's 50 is SPF is Survivor Preparation Formula.
[00:01:55] Fun!
[00:02:02] Survivor Podcast Fishback SPF 50 is here.
[00:02:08] I like the week later thing you know like the day after is a little bit tenuous because like
[00:02:13] people have already said all the things you know you kind of like jump in into this middle of this
[00:02:16] raging discourse now everyone said everything all it's all been forgotten and we can say it again and
[00:02:22] fresh yeah I'm really excited for this one I've been looking forward to this all week the Survivor
[00:02:27] season ain't over until Steven Fishback says it is okay yeah you're already doing post show you know
[00:02:33] post season offseason shows Rob no this is the current season yeah yeah yeah um and I got some
[00:02:38] hot takes okay that's a hot great can't wait to get into them here with Steven Fishback we'll
[00:02:42] take your questions we got some from the Rob is a podcast uh patron Facebook group as well and many
[00:02:47] of Steven's hottest takes from Twitter we'll talk about all that here today last night we kicked
[00:02:53] off the aforementioned Summer of Survivor Mike Bloom Shannon Gus and I got together and we
[00:03:00] went through the mailbag talked about what podcasts should we do this summer every Wednesday
[00:03:04] night came up with a lot of fun ideas it was an extremely fun podcast if you didn't check that one
[00:03:11] out you can do so at any time and then starting tomorrow Steven Mike Bloom is kicking off
[00:03:17] something that we're calling the Survivor 50 wish list and so every weekday Mike Bloom is coming to
[00:03:23] you and he's going through the season starting with on tomorrow the 24th birthday of Survivor Borneo
[00:03:31] he is going back to take a look at Survivor Borneo and seeing what players from Survivor Borneo are on
[00:03:38] our Survivor 50 wish list and joining really so how big is this wish list gonna get well
[00:03:43] that ideally Sam Moore says it can only be up to three people per season and then Steven did you
[00:03:49] know about this part we're taking them all and we're putting them in one big poll and we're doing
[00:03:54] a fan vote remember remember you were in a fan vote once it was yeah it was awful I was it was
[00:04:01] fun the fan vote part was fun yeah but this one doesn't really count but they'll probably look at
[00:04:05] it right yeah they probably will look at it right yeah that's what I'm saying I mean that's all I'm
[00:04:09] saying is that they'll probably look at it I don't know if it's going to be the deciding factor
[00:04:12] but I mean people should probably campaign right three people from season one I don't know I don't
[00:04:17] think there actually are three people that people want to see back from season one you don't think
[00:04:20] three people should be on the ballot I don't know it's I feel like it's gonna be a real new era
[00:04:26] heavy well you'll have one well look we're gonna let people vote yeah Gretchen maybe finally get
[00:04:31] Gretchen okay well you'll find out who is going to get through when I talk with Mike Bloom
[00:04:37] kicking off our Survivor wish list and then uh weekdays all summer long starting with Survivor
[00:04:41] Borneo Mike Bloom is going through the seasons all right are we like thinking like is it like about
[00:04:46] who they were then or who they'll be who they are now who they are now you know is gonna be like
[00:04:51] you know middle-aged Greg Buist it's not gonna be you know young upstart Greg Buist yeah well what
[00:04:55] do you want to uh you want to do this in like chat GPT like what do you how do you want to do this so
[00:05:01] we gotta do with like people as their age I know it's good to do a realistic yeah I like that okay
[00:05:06] it sounds great it's it sounds really interesting obviously I'm like invested I'm gonna be listening
[00:05:09] it's gotta be twofold because you need it's gotta be a person that want would come back and then also
[00:05:15] a person that production wants back so there's a lot of would come back as everyone um and then
[00:05:19] I don't think so no it's not everyone yeah all right so listen to those podcasts every day and
[00:05:25] to find out like when we get to Survivor Token Sheens if Steven's gonna be on the ballot wow
[00:05:30] wow um well now I want to be even though I don't want to go I still want to be on the ballot you
[00:05:34] know you don't have to go if you're on the ballot okay okay okay I would be great to get an ask and
[00:05:38] turn it down then I could like really put my money where my mouth yeah they put that in the Survivor
[00:05:42] wiki of like uh did you know in Survivor 50 they asked Steven Fishback and he said no yeah timing
[00:05:48] wasn't good for him yeah okay all right but we have a lot to talk about okay Survivor 46 finale
[00:05:54] okay and of course here we are several days uh after the real discourse on the postseason started
[00:06:02] uh so many so many thoughts on everything Steven your reaction to Kenzie's win all right first of
[00:06:09] all here's my thesis statement for the whole episode everyone was robbed okay Charlie was
[00:06:18] robbed Charlie played the game of the season I thought Charlie I wanted to see Charlie Charlie
[00:06:23] win I thought Maria was robbed that challenge was so unfair that challenge cheating and even if
[00:06:29] Kenzie was ahead still like Maria deserved a fair shot she was robbed Kenzie was robbed Kenzie just
[00:06:35] won Survivor and now all anyone is talking about is why didn't Maria vote for Charlie or was the
[00:06:40] challenge fair she just did this incredible thing poor Kenzie to have like just like done one of the
[00:06:45] great achievements of her life be totally overshadowed Kenzie was robbed Ben was robbed
[00:06:50] because Ben got to the final tribal council and didn't even get an opportunity to make his case
[00:06:54] that's so upsetting Liz was robbed she she played all all game 25 days with this great out of the
[00:07:02] box strategy of like pretending to be a millionaire you know even at the very end you know in the final
[00:07:06] conversations about fire making you know she's like oh yes and I'm so rich I don't even need this
[00:07:11] you know all the way day one to day 25 and does not get one more day she gets to finally do the
[00:07:15] payoff for like one of the great season-long strategies of all time yeah well I think you're
[00:07:20] gonna say she got robbed in that they cut it out of the show well and they cut it out of the show
[00:07:25] so everyone just thinks she just talks constantly about how rich she is I was robbed I wanted to
[00:07:29] watch the finale last week and because I was on vacation it was a wonderful vacation I didn't get
[00:07:34] the chance to and you are robbed and so everyone is robbed yes yeah yes also not to mention uh
[00:07:40] people were also I don't want to say robbed but the sea of money was taken from these people
[00:07:47] right ripped out 130 000 accounted for by this 446 players they spent all season
[00:07:55] spent all season trying to be inspiring and now where did where did that get him yeah okay so many
[00:08:00] things uh to discuss out of that is there one in particular and well well done by you and what's top
[00:08:08] of mind for you I mean the two big ones I mean I think obviously we got to talk about I mean the
[00:08:14] two big ones are like you know Kenzie Charlie you know then the Maria vote I guess these are the
[00:08:17] three big ones yeah those are those are sort of like actually can I go a little off the board
[00:08:21] could we start off about the the final five challenge because I saw that this was something
[00:08:25] that you were having a very interesting conversation about on social media with Charlie
[00:08:30] and I don't know if too many people have been talking about uh the answers that you got from
[00:08:34] Charlie well I it's interesting because like I thought I mean I think people interpreted Charlie's
[00:08:39] answers in a way that I did not interpret them I think people thought Charlie was defending what
[00:08:43] happened when I actually thought that he was impugning what happened so I would like to talk
[00:08:46] about it um first of all Rob I want to know and I'm sure you talked about this already so let's
[00:08:51] rehash what was your opinion of what happened in the final five challenge so I personally
[00:08:57] it didn't bother me I wasn't like up in arms about it like like many people were I did not flip over
[00:09:04] a table in my home uh when it happened but I did feel like that it was a slippery slope and I and I
[00:09:10] felt like that it ended up being a thing where I felt like that for the sake of the big tv moment
[00:09:17] of that this was something that was unprecedented that was happening they let this slide in the
[00:09:24] challenge but I don't think that there will be precedent that this will happen more in the future
[00:09:31] yeah that's my guess too I think probably like Jeff you know people you know when I was saying I
[00:09:36] thought it was bs and I really do think it was bs you know I think that it's an individual
[00:09:40] immunity challenge right and the whole premise is that it's an individual immunity challenge each
[00:09:45] and and what what Liz did was cut off part of the course for Kenzie right it wasn't just like
[00:09:52] seeing the the the plank it was like the whole act of having to run back then run you know come back
[00:09:57] to the puzzle so there's like a meaningful part of it um you know that that she does now from my
[00:10:03] perspective like if Liz runs back um that's okay you know although we should talk about what Charlie
[00:10:08] said about it um shortly but you know if she counts the holes that's okay but the second she's
[00:10:12] picking up Kenzie's piece like that to me is not okay and of course I think a lot of people felt
[00:10:17] well like they're so close to each other like why is one okay and one is not you know they're basically
[00:10:23] the same thing but like you just have to make rules right like games games exist because there
[00:10:27] are rules to the games and you know was this technically illegal to you know violate to
[00:10:34] team up in an individual immunity challenge like maybe not like probably not or they probably would
[00:10:39] have stopped it but I definitely think it's against the spirit of the game you know so and
[00:10:42] you know on Twitter I was saying you know this is unfair this is bs and a lot of people were saying
[00:10:45] well like a if it was if it was illegal Jeff would have stopped it um which like again like to your
[00:10:51] point like he might not have right he might have just thought like hey it's cool and nobody puts up
[00:10:54] a fuss so they let it ride and then kind of pull it back in the next challenge um people were saying
[00:10:59] like oh it's cool I liked it it didn't bother me it was like it was creative thinking but like
[00:11:03] and and then other people were saying oh it's a social game so people should be able to team up
[00:11:07] on each other but um the whole point of the social game you know it gets manifested at tribal council
[00:11:12] right that's where the social game is relevant where the the tribe uh gets the opportunity to
[00:11:17] vote you out although fewer and fewer opportunities these days um but but uh the individual immunity
[00:11:22] challenge is supposed to be a counterbalance to that social game it's supposed to give people
[00:11:26] a chance to protect themselves from the social game through physical or strategic or or you know
[00:11:31] puzzle based or you know excellence and um if people can team up on the individual challenge
[00:11:39] and like it's always going to be like the tallest poppy is always going to lose no matter like how
[00:11:43] good they are at challenges and I do think that you know there was a little bit of anti-Maria
[00:11:48] bias and people hate being told you know people hate the idea that someone is arguing in bad faith
[00:11:54] is like never no one wants to hear that and I don't really want to say that but I'll say it
[00:11:58] um you know I do think that because this was Maria people's rationales for it were a little
[00:12:03] more generous like I think Maria had a lot of ill will or you know just the fans didn't didn't love
[00:12:07] her right so I think people were more willing to excuse it you know the same people who are like
[00:12:10] well Jeff said it's true and therefore it's okay you know are probably being like how dare Jeff do
[00:12:15] that you know how dare Jeff say that or rule make that ruling or change this this part of the game
[00:12:19] so um I think that also why does Jeff say there's no more villains and also we really don't like
[00:12:25] this person yeah yeah exactly so you know like if people I'm sure there's a lot of people who
[00:12:30] disagree with me um but um from my perspective and you know god bless you like you're welcome
[00:12:35] to disagree from my perspective it was against the spirit of the game and I really didn't like
[00:12:39] it but I do agree with you this was probably like a one-off in the moment thing yeah um and it will
[00:12:43] not be happening again there was a gimmick in the challenge that that was really the thing where they
[00:12:48] were surprising the contestants that there was a puzzle and then they were not expecting that
[00:12:53] the puzzle was going to then send you to go like we saw Kenzie's like Jeff I got it right and
[00:13:01] then it turned out that it was there was another part that you had to go and do and I think that
[00:13:08] if it was a typical challenge beforehand the contestants would have that opportunity to ask
[00:13:14] questions of like hey Jeff if she's doing the puzzle can I go get the plank and they would
[00:13:18] ask about it and then I don't think so but because it was in the heat of the moment I am a little
[00:13:21] surprised and I don't know if they had uh a meeting to discuss it when Liz goes back and they see that
[00:13:27] she gets the Kenzie's plank I'm a little surprised and and from what I understand I don't know if this
[00:13:33] happened that they didn't say whoa time out like all right let's let's huddle up and see is this
[00:13:37] allowed is this legal and then all right right everybody back into it maybe they felt like that
[00:13:41] there was too much momentum going on and it was such a critical moment they couldn't stop the
[00:13:45] challenge at that point and you know Jeff like I mean Jeff just gets like excited about things
[00:13:49] he's excitable you know that's part of what makes him such a good host is that he's like
[00:13:52] he's like really into it he's like oh my gosh Liz is doing this big move like let's you know so
[00:13:56] maybe someone was in the air when is in his ear like is this okay like can we do this he's like
[00:14:00] yes let it ride but then you know in a in a sober moment there's also fairness judges there and
[00:14:04] stuff like that so if it was actually like against the rules they would have stopped it
[00:14:09] and not let it continue on yeah my guess is it's technically not illegal though I think if probably
[00:14:14] Maria had put up a stink I can imagine there's a world where I agree with you I think it's against
[00:14:17] the spirit of the individual immunity challenge okay so what was it that Charlie said about this
[00:14:22] all right I'm trying to go do you have the tweets pulled up that were that he said like to summarize
[00:14:26] he said that um you know they had been told that they had to finish their puzzle before running
[00:14:31] back and getting their plank and um that that um like legalistically like maybe like Liz did
[00:14:40] because Liz didn't get her own plank she was like in the in the legalistic clear um so like because
[00:14:47] Liz was getting Kenzie's plank you know uh even though she didn't finish her puzzle it was okay
[00:14:52] um maybe technically I mean I think he kind of like the implication I got from him although
[00:14:56] that certainly could have been me projecting my own perspective onto him was that he thought it
[00:15:01] was a little bit like uh like a little bit questionable and the other thing he said was
[00:15:05] you know at that moment uh Jeff would not have had a way to determine if Liz was um you know going to
[00:15:12] help Kenzie or going to hurt Kenzie which is like you know was part of my argument against it like
[00:15:16] if you're allowed to pick up someone's puzzle piece why can't you sabotage them why can't you
[00:15:20] just like throw it so it's further away or harder to get do you agree that the rule should be you
[00:15:25] have to stay in your lane you're not saying you're laying stay in your lane everybody and
[00:15:32] I mean I just think that's like that's the tacit understanding of what these challenges have been
[00:15:35] forever you know I I have competed in 13 individual immunity challenges and then not a single one of
[00:15:41] them did Jeff say like hey you can't help each other you know like it's it's individual immunity
[00:15:45] that's what it is yeah I think that where it gets a little bit uh questionable like you're allowed
[00:15:51] to look at somebody else's puzzle you're allowed to cheat off of another person to get the combination
[00:15:58] to a lot so I think that if you were going to defend it I think you may be defended in that
[00:16:02] way of like okay well it's not it's not legal for me to look at this other person's puzzle or
[00:16:08] we've seen also in the past where people are helping other people with giving the answers to a puzzle
[00:16:14] but the fact that she goes and and carries the piece back like that Kenzie didn't have to do
[00:16:19] an essential part of the challenge of now go back down the stairs now go get the plank and then come
[00:16:25] back with it I I think that is against the nature of how the puzzle the challenge was designed
[00:16:30] yeah and I mean no no um blame on Kenzie or Liz um because like they should push the game as far
[00:16:36] as they can you know the don't hate the players yeah yeah the onus is on like the the rule rules
[00:16:42] people to to keep it fair um you know and back in the day when you looked at so I don't think he does
[00:16:47] this anymore but like on my end token chains you know if you looked at somebody's puzzle like Jeff
[00:16:51] would shout at you like he wouldn't stop you from doing it but like you would get like the full
[00:16:54] social implication of of you know and shame of of that but um the idea that I could like reach over
[00:17:00] and touch some of JT's pieces while he was doing a puzzle like my god like please let me just like
[00:17:04] toss those things out of there you know I mean again like it's like obviously that's the kind
[00:17:08] of thing that Jeff would stop but I do think like ganging up on someone to help is is really against
[00:17:14] what the whole point of the individual immunity challenge is is in terms of its role within the
[00:17:18] game structure I also got the sense from the Charlie's message and I don't have it in front
[00:17:23] of me that I got the sense that Jeff was not necessarily uh thrilled with this and it probably
[00:17:30] wouldn't happen again well apparently even and I don't know if this was in that specific uh twitter
[00:17:35] back and forth but apparently he said at the next challenge like hey you can't you can't help each
[00:17:39] other which like p.s didn't someone actually help um in a similar challenge I feel like it was a
[00:17:43] millennials versus gen x there was some kind of timer um timer mechanic and then someone was like
[00:17:49] oh go back go back um I think that there was something with Adam and Ken yeah but I don't know
[00:17:56] it uh exactly like that it might have been a similar challenge to what they did for the final
[00:18:00] immunity challenge here yeah yeah that's what I'm saying it was like a similar thing where he had um
[00:18:05] um you know someone was helping and again like I wouldn't find yeah that I didn't have a problem
[00:18:10] with that but so like where where you're right like if everybody what if everybody at the final
[00:18:15] four challenge was like okay we're gonna try to stop Charlie so you know pick our we'll pick our
[00:18:19] chosen champion and then like instruct them like you know if Liz and Kenzie are just like telling
[00:18:26] Ben like to like Ben Ben Ben go back go back go back go back you're good you're good you know
[00:18:31] so yeah well exactly and like you know so it's obviously such a personal line and you know
[00:18:35] everybody's is going to be different so I'm not surprised that it spurred such like very you know
[00:18:39] vigorous debate because everyone's own point of view is going to be like based on where their line
[00:18:44] is and my line is just like when when people are actually touching each other's pieces but like
[00:18:48] maybe that seems arbitrary to others okay all right so of the other things on your hit list uh
[00:18:56] the Charlie versus Kenzie debate I think it's really interesting that you know back a couple
[00:19:04] of weeks ago at the time of the Venus vote that many people yourself included Shannon Gus talked
[00:19:11] about Charlie at that point in the game playing perhaps the best game of the new era definitely
[00:19:19] one of the best games of the new era I mean like I you know I I love to the hyperbole but you know
[00:19:23] and but you know I hate the ranking so um you know I think Jam Jam D like they're all they're all
[00:19:28] you know deserve deserved that that title as well okay so did you have a strong feeling about uh the
[00:19:37] when Charlie got to the final tribal council and it was interesting Chappelle was talking about this
[00:19:40] the the other day so many of the votes ended up switching there were five votes that ultimately
[00:19:47] ended up switching and so a few of them were to Charlie but it even seems like that going into
[00:19:53] final tribal council that Charlie had less votes than three yeah so I mean if you believe who you
[00:19:59] know if you believe people in their raised hands um it sounds like Q and Venus went in as Charlie
[00:20:05] votes and switched to Kenzie votes and all three of Charlie's votes which were Hunter Liz and Soda
[00:20:12] Soda were earned in the final tribal council so um you know it did seem too like there was other
[00:20:18] people who were just obviously like right on the fence there like Tevin we saw him really agonizing
[00:20:22] over it which is itself kind of like oh gosh Tevin like couldn't you made it a tie that would
[00:20:26] have been such a cool moment um but but um obviously more of the onus fell on Maria because there was
[00:20:31] so much made of that relationship and because it didn't seem like she didn't switch right she went
[00:20:37] in uh Kenzie vote and left the Kenzie vote and you know according to some was a vocal Kenzie vote at
[00:20:44] at Ponderosa according to others that wasn't really the case uh yeah well that's been a point of
[00:20:49] contention of whether whether or not that was the case and so that uh that and that was really
[00:20:55] the impetus for the latest flame uh flare up on survivor 46 twitter between where Venus uh said
[00:21:03] that Maria was talking uh was campaigning against Charlie uh and Q and Tevin said that she was not
[00:21:13] yeah yeah um where do you stand now you very famously did not vote for your great ally
[00:21:19] ally Matthew von Ertfelde yes so you know where do you and I did vote for my other great ally Jenna
[00:21:25] yeah yeah well you know you're sort of the Maria of uh Survivor uh season of the Amazon
[00:21:30] yeah can you remind me who you voted for in all stars was it which one was it
[00:21:37] lost in a robbery um too close to call too close to call I voted I voted for Rupert for America's
[00:21:42] player I was you know why not um so tell me yeah tell so you're you know what's your perspective
[00:21:50] on this on on on bitter jurors you know spiting the the dominant strategist yeah this was a very
[00:22:00] different instance in terms of uh where we were in Survivor the Amazon versus you know I really I
[00:22:08] was I was open-minded about voting for Jenna or for Matt Matt did not have a great final tribal
[00:22:13] council yeah yeah um no obviously I'm joking I don't I don't think that uh that was a really
[00:22:18] but like truly so what's what was your what was your takeaway you know here as you know you've
[00:22:22] been on the jury like where where were you well I I think that the Maria thing was such a shock
[00:22:28] to us and you know I don't please don't get it twisted uh don't think that the people online
[00:22:35] you know have any right to go ahead and like harass contestants after the show like that's
[00:22:42] that's not what this is about but it was a a huge surprise because I feel like that
[00:22:49] the the history of this is that you have a close ally and you like a Malcolm and a Denise which was
[00:22:58] fed to us all season long this is Malcolm and Denise this is Malcolm and Denise at the final
[00:23:02] tribal council in Survivor Philippines uh Malcolm really gave Denise the what for and then wrote her
[00:23:08] name down and that's look Tony and Trish you know we've seen this in the past where allies there's
[00:23:13] some question of like I don't know you're gonna get my vote and then ultimately you give them a
[00:23:18] hard time and then you write their name down and we've also seen where okay I really am upset with
[00:23:25] you I'm going to give you the what for and let you know I'm not giving you the vote uh where Maria
[00:23:30] did not seem to uh and as she said she was very torn between Charlie and Kenzie didn't switch her
[00:23:37] vote though um and ultimately just went with it wasn't an anti-Charlie vote it was a pro-Kenzie
[00:23:44] vote yeah and it did like you know she did say for what it's worth to Charlie I am you've got
[00:23:50] my vote so that's a little bit that's a little bit questionable but you know she's not committed
[00:23:53] to that and I do think that one of the best parts about being a juror and one of the things that
[00:23:59] makes Survivor such an interesting game is that jurors get to vote on whatever criteria they want
[00:24:05] and it seems like a lot of people were really mad about Q's decision too um which we'll talk we
[00:24:10] should talk about but you know if Maria wants to vote for who had the best the most fire in their
[00:24:15] eyes in the fire making challenge like I think that's a dumb criterion but that is her prerogative
[00:24:20] and you know I also really believe that some of this has to do with Charlie being a Harvard
[00:24:27] educated lawyer like I think there's a perception of this guy that he has a million dollars at his
[00:24:33] fingertips if he wants it and that might be true right we don't know what his career prospects are
[00:24:37] like or what his debt load is like but we certainly I mean I my bias is that you know the Harvard
[00:24:42] lawyer um yeah but that's because you went to Yale you hate anybody that went to Harvard yeah no
[00:24:50] he exactly no but I mean like I would think that he would like you know you would never vote for a
[00:24:54] Harvard person yeah that's true I would have voted for Kenzie but but you know only based on
[00:24:58] the school rivalry I'd hate I don't want them racking up any more credits um no um you know
[00:25:03] like you biased yeah yeah no no no but I would think no I obviously I would have voted for
[00:25:07] Charlie in this in this travel council I I want to talk about Kenzie before yeah before the show's
[00:25:11] over because but you know like the the I do think that that had to factor into it you know because
[00:25:16] when you're voting to award someone a million dollars like that's a really huge life-changing
[00:25:21] amount of money and especially for someone like Kenzie who's you know not not doesn't have like
[00:25:27] you know corporate law firms necessarily as a as a viable career option which like we don't know
[00:25:33] maybe maybe Charlie doesn't want to be a corporate lawyer but like you know he's got those opportunities
[00:25:38] open to him presumably in a way that she might not and so like I think I even even knowing that
[00:25:43] I would definitely vote for Charlie in this scenario I think I would still ask myself the
[00:25:47] question and you know that got I think into what Sota said which is like you know this is a there's
[00:25:51] a distinction between my heart and my head and I think it really comes down to like where people
[00:25:55] were in terms of the game now obviously I I really believe that had to be a part of of Maria's
[00:26:00] thinking now like was she also partially bitter that her ally outperformed her like I'm sure that
[00:26:05] had to factor into it too and it wasn't like you know like me and Jeremy you know where like we
[00:26:10] were we were buddies all the way down you know toward to the point where I was eliminated um
[00:26:16] you know they were turning on each other you know on the one like to be like Maria voted for Charlie
[00:26:21] before Charlie voted for Maria but if you read Charlie's interview he says that he was setting
[00:26:26] Maria up for a downfall you know I mean he says like I was trying to like get Maria to be screwed
[00:26:30] over by the Tiffany vote so like if they're actively working against each other like like
[00:26:35] where does like where is the obligation right like where does it end and I again like I did think
[00:26:40] there was some a sense of um oh I don't want you know I don't want my you know I wrote down what
[00:26:46] each of them said in Maria's in Maria's vote where Kenzie you know says like Maria you're an amazing
[00:26:51] woman I admire you I love you I respect you you could kick my ass up and down this game I have to
[00:26:57] write your name down tonight you're amazing you're wonderful I love you like those are all verbatim
[00:27:00] quotes Charlie says Maria and I have worked side by side it's almost like a sibling rivalry moment
[00:27:05] like who are you getting you know like you don't want your sibling to win the sibling rivalry you
[00:27:09] know you want to like vote for the person who loves you and admires you and like acknowledges
[00:27:13] your superiority do you think that there's anything interesting to uh you know whether or not Maria
[00:27:19] learned about Charlie's duplicity at Ponderosa versus learning of it in the game and and also
[00:27:26] like the corollary like uh did did Tiffany did anybody tell Tiffany that Kenzie by the way you
[00:27:33] know Ken it was Kenzie's idea to blindside you originally and then we didn't do it uh it seemed
[00:27:38] like that I feel like that from Tiffany's exit interview she uh said that she didn't know about
[00:27:43] that until she saw it on television so Tiffany I don't think had any sort of like animosity towards
[00:27:49] learning about that from Kenzie but if Maria did find out at Ponderosa I'm sure there was a little
[00:27:55] bit of like oh Charlie like was like oh Maria how could you you were you were like uh you've
[00:28:02] wrote my name down Maria right uh and then you know uh played the very you know good boy in the
[00:28:08] game and then if Maria does find out at Ponderosa which again that uh Venus said this and also
[00:28:15] Charlie said in his exit interview with me that Tiffany talked to Maria at Ponderosa but I don't
[00:28:21] know maybe but he what he wasn't there so I don't know if that it's certainly I'm not a lawyer but
[00:28:28] I guess that's hearsay that he had learned that Tiffany but from who so but but I think it's
[00:28:36] almost worse for Charlie if like uh if that comes up in the game like I think but if Maria is getting
[00:28:43] new information at Ponderosa like what Charlie was you thought you could stick it to me yeah
[00:28:49] and you made me feel bad yes yes I really think that's the case and I think you you know you are
[00:28:55] never more bitter than that an ally who betrays you right like you getting bested by an enemy is
[00:29:00] one thing getting betrayed by an ally is really hard to to get over and like there are situations
[00:29:05] where I would have voted for Spencer in the final tribal like but like I was very anti him because of
[00:29:10] that um that that I was going to mention this you know you brought up uh Survivor the Amazon like
[00:29:16] was there anything when you talked about like okay well Charlie he's a he's a lawyer was there any
[00:29:20] part of the Cambodia jury that looked at Spencer as like okay well this is this kid he's going
[00:29:25] places oh 100% I mean I think that was a big part of it you know like I mean that's I think what why
[00:29:31] some of the narrative was about like you know Kimmy you know like you know we talk all the time about
[00:29:35] how Kimmy would have won could potentially get a one Cambodia if she got to the end and it was
[00:29:40] all and it wasn't because of the amazing game she played it was because you know she was a single
[00:29:44] mom with two kids you know Sophie says Brandon Hance would have won South Pacific right yeah um
[00:29:49] although people did apparently like think he played a good game or something I don't know
[00:29:52] um but but um you know and then Spencer was like this young kid you know I don't know if he worked
[00:29:57] on on on you know Chicago Stock Exchange then but like you know I was working in bonds in Chicago
[00:30:01] um someone was saying Spencer credited attributed this to me but it was not for me maybe it was
[00:30:05] Cass like that he was um like his dad was really wealthy and so he was he was he was well off
[00:30:11] I mean you know I I was predicting that he would lose his mind and you know go go on like multiple
[00:30:16] drug trips and then become this sort of like cook you know I was saying that so um the uh no but I
[00:30:22] mean no of course that factors into into what people have to say and but like you know when
[00:30:27] you when you're betrayed by an ally like you you you know it resonates I mean we said even when um
[00:30:34] at the Tiffany vote you know we were saying like that the best thing that happened to Kenzie
[00:30:38] was not getting to blindside Tiffany you know the fact that she's got Tiffany over there in the jury
[00:30:43] advocating for her and you know running out the timer on her enemies is um you know that's like
[00:30:48] the best thing you could have is someone who's like a vocal advocate for you and like I think
[00:30:52] you know you wrote about I want to talk about your your essay in the confessional like like let this
[00:30:56] put an end to the idea that you should blindside your allies because like it is not it is not worth
[00:31:01] it yeah okay so I'm glad you brought that up because I wanted to talk to you about this so uh
[00:31:05] this week on our brand new reality tv newsletter the confessional you could read it at reality tv
[00:31:12] newsletters.com that we uh started this project with Kevin Jacobs and I wrote up about the the
[00:31:19] era of the resume I think is over because I felt like that while like I guess the the resumes
[00:31:26] ultimately are kind are kind of close where they both end up winning two immunity challenges and
[00:31:33] that Charlie doesn't have that stellar resume move we were talking about Charlie uh at least
[00:31:40] from our perspective as one of the best game players of the new era and that what I don't
[00:31:47] believe that that was that that kind of hyperbole was thrown around about Kenzie over the course of
[00:31:55] the season and when they got to the final tribal council ultimately it's Kenzie based off of the
[00:32:02] strength of this incredible social game who ends up winning and we hear so much talk about oh I
[00:32:09] need resume I gotta vote I gotta need a big move I need this I need that and what I was trying to
[00:32:14] articulate was that I don't think that that is what wins you the survivor game I think that having
[00:32:21] the superpower that Kenzie has and I hope that people did not take this as a slight against Kenzie
[00:32:26] that I thought that Kenzie's superpower her mermaid power that that the the charm that is the ultimate
[00:32:35] superpower in survivor and I think it's it's in some cases it's undervalued when it does not come
[00:32:40] in a threatening package I think that when you combine it with a physical ability like like Caleb
[00:32:46] like somebody who really stands out and has that that that charm that I think that okay that that's
[00:32:52] where it's like okay danger red flags but I felt like that Kenzie's social ability was so great
[00:32:59] people weren't worried about it and and I think that almost any jury is going to award that person
[00:33:07] instead of the person with a strategic game like Charlie now you did write that every juror has
[00:33:16] yeah I would probably parse that I think that like Dr. Amanda made some good points that I
[00:33:21] think I would like probably I was being a little hyperbolic I think I would I would
[00:33:27] parse that in that every juror has liked the person more that they voted for like nobody's
[00:33:36] ever like I don't even think that's true in the token genes jury I think like Tyson definitely
[00:33:39] liked me more Aaron definitely liked me more but he also liked JT like I don't I guess
[00:33:44] that here's what here's what I'll say okay let me let me let me get a mulligan on this okay yeah
[00:33:48] nobody's ever disliked the person and and voted for them to win based off of like boy they played
[00:33:55] one hell of a game I don't like you but you played one hell of a game I don't think that
[00:33:59] person's out there nobody's ever voted for someone who killed their cat that's what I'm trying to say
[00:34:03] that's what's right like sometimes they did sometimes they like both people you know um
[00:34:08] sometimes like that something happened to the final tribal council that you know okay I I talked
[00:34:12] myself into I like them more I like them in this moment but nobody's nobody's ever voted for a
[00:34:18] person to win the game that they don't like yeah I mean that's like the Russell Haines factor right
[00:34:22] oh well and and like it's like people who just like didn't like him on a personal level were
[00:34:27] probably you know voting against him um you know but but to your point about big moves you know a
[00:34:32] lot of people were saying you know Charlie if you'd like taken more of ownership in the last
[00:34:36] two tribal councils maybe you would have um had a better showing here and I like there so it sounds
[00:34:43] like if Charlie had gone into fire he my guess is he would have won right he certainly could have
[00:34:47] gotten Tevin's vote or like maybe one more vote right um which is all he really needed the well
[00:34:52] I think it would take the Maria I saw the fire in her eyes but I said like I believe that if
[00:34:59] if Charlie did make the fire I think it would have been a different reason why like
[00:35:03] here's here's my hypothetical situation for you okay um that Charlie Charlie ends up going into
[00:35:09] the fire beats beats Liz in the fire okay Ben takes Kenzie to the end you think that Charlie that
[00:35:16] Charlie is the winner of the season um I do think that yeah like because I think it was so close
[00:35:23] for certain people like like Tevin like is he not going to get swayed by that like if he's so
[00:35:28] on the margin and to like have that fire that happened like right then um I do think that that
[00:35:33] might have been you know and also you know eliminating you know jury threat Liz um you
[00:35:37] know I think that would obviously here's what I really think though apart even more than that
[00:35:41] I think Charlie misplayed the final five tribal council and here's why I want what I want your
[00:35:45] perspective on this yes so I think there were two paths that Charlie could have taken one path
[00:35:51] is like stand up and own the Maria blindside like I am taking out Maria she is the competitor like
[00:35:56] I am like leading the charge against my big ally the other path is like stand by Maria be like this
[00:36:01] is my ally and I'm going to vote with you I am going down with this with this ship you are like
[00:36:07] my number one instead he kind of had this sort of like middle wishy-washy yeah which wishy-washy
[00:36:13] was sort of like his problem all season right it was like uh yeah we're like siblings and like I'm
[00:36:17] gonna vote for you but I really like you and like yay yeah like it just like didn't take a stand in
[00:36:21] either direction I wouldn't call it wishy-washy I understand what you're saying but I think he
[00:36:26] wanted to like have his cake and eat it too and I think he probably you're I agree with you I think
[00:36:31] he needed to like to like really he he got the worst of both worlds he didn't get the credit
[00:36:37] for the move where had he been able to take out Maria at six or at seven and unluckily for him
[00:36:43] Maria won those two immunities and had he been able to engineer a Maria blindside at either of
[00:36:48] those votes that I do feel like that that's probably enough to put him uh over the edge
[00:36:56] yeah or at least or enough to get him voted out of the game uh for being the biggest threat um well
[00:37:02] he couldn't at the point of the final five he couldn't get voted out um but but also then but
[00:37:06] he also he had the worst of both worlds because he wasn't able to like and then when when he what
[00:37:12] was not uh the blind side of Q happened I don't think that anybody necessarily looked at that as
[00:37:19] as Charlie's move and then also the jig was up with Maria where then everybody knew he was coming for
[00:37:24] Maria so he didn't get any credit for Maria going out in the eyes of the jury yes so should he have
[00:37:29] like voted with her right to be like I am not voting you out Maria like you are my number one
[00:37:34] and even though I know you're going home tonight like I am going to symbolically stand with you
[00:37:38] yeah I don't know I think that he probably has to get her I think he's kind of in a in a bad spot
[00:37:45] so I think he I think he probably should have gone in the direction of trying to forget about
[00:37:50] Maria's jury vote and and really try to own like uh Maria like you should have seen this coming I
[00:37:57] had you dead to rights these last couple of votes and really like I think take more credit for the
[00:38:02] Maria thing because then he still has to deal with Maria at the final four uh if he's trying to
[00:38:07] if he's trying to save her or or he's like number one persona non grata at the uh final four when
[00:38:13] he's really making a fuss over you know uh Ben I think that uh you know uh didn't really want
[00:38:19] to see Maria get to the final four they had sort of a sour relationship yeah I mean you know I do
[00:38:26] think that last year has a lot of impact and especially if that last year is your number
[00:38:29] one ally and they're not coming out like well Liz is the last juror well right that's true but I
[00:38:33] think with fire maybe it's like but like slightly different in terms of just the timing um but but
[00:38:37] um you know those last few jurors let's say you know they're the ones who are really shaping the
[00:38:41] jury's whole opinion of like what's been going on in the game so for Maria to come out of the game
[00:38:45] and like be pro Kenzie whether or not she was advocating for Kenzie she was not advocating
[00:38:49] for Charlie right so I think that that how can that not put you know uh change the people's
[00:38:54] perspective like clearly Tiffany was advocating for Kenzie at Ponderosa like if if you know if
[00:38:59] she's not like being like yes it's got to be Charlie think of this great game Charlie played
[00:39:02] like who is putting that thought into people's minds you know um so I do think uh well let me
[00:39:09] let me run out something else by you that that uh someone has as posed to me like does Charlie
[00:39:13] deserve any of the blame for not eliminating Kenzie early there were a lot of people who like
[00:39:17] Venus for example which who were probably not going to win that jury over like he could he not
[00:39:22] have seen hey Kenzie is really well liked by that jury it seemed like Kenzie's name never came up
[00:39:28] that seems like it was a blind spot for him that could be sorry that Kenzie was a blind spot for
[00:39:34] him because he was with this group of four and the show didn't exactly paint it as this of like
[00:39:40] once Tiffany went home that there were the misfits of Charlie, Ben, Kenzie, Liz and they were going
[00:39:46] to come together and they were going to knock out Q and they were going to knock out Maria
[00:39:49] and I think that Charlie felt like of the misfits I'm the winner I got this and I think that maybe
[00:39:57] he just looked at Kenzie as sort of okay that Kenzie was to Tiffany as I was to Maria but I'm
[00:40:04] the one that you know I took out my no like I'm part of taking out my number one and my number
[00:40:08] one's number one whereas Kenzie got blindsided and so right I am I have the the game over Kenzie
[00:40:17] but I do feel like that he I would not say that many players should go to fire but I do think
[00:40:24] that for Charlie to go up against Liz and potentially I guess he would probably have to
[00:40:29] go up against Kenzie in that spot you know it it feels like that Charlie was confident in his
[00:40:35] abilities enough and if he does take out Kenzie for sure he wins yeah let's talk about Kenzie
[00:40:41] because we haven't even talked about her and she won the season you know final fishy for Kenzie
[00:40:45] my god you won survivor like for perfect for a mermaid dragon yeah yeah I mean it seems seems so
[00:40:50] like generous and kind that I can only imagine that like she's okay with this all since she's
[00:40:54] got the check in the title but it still kind of has to suck you know you win survivor and everyone's
[00:40:58] like didn't this other person deserved it and um you know I feel like that was kind of like
[00:41:02] I feel like Sophie like didn't like that at the time you know where it was like you know coach
[00:41:06] was robbed was so much the narrative of of of po show um 23 which obviously like that is not you
[00:41:12] know that is not um state state the case but um well okay I there's very very fair point and I
[00:41:21] don't feel like that there's uh like I feel like it's a little different I feel like that there's
[00:41:25] I've seen a lot of Charlie was robbed but I don't feel like I've seen a ton of that Kenzie was
[00:41:30] undeserving and I think there is that there is a difference even going back to Michelle and Aubrey
[00:41:35] that I feel like that there was a lot more of like Michelle didn't deserve it and Aubrey should
[00:41:41] have gotten it whereas I feel like that this has been a little bit different and I do hope that
[00:41:46] we've been responsibly talking about this uh this uh situation of who ultimately won the game which
[00:41:54] is really like you know our call of duty of here that we have to do on the survivor know-it-alls
[00:41:59] but Charlie was so great at articulating his strategy to the audience and I think that that
[00:42:06] is such a big factor of that we are seeing we saw Charlie's game almost the whole way through in
[00:42:12] terms of what he was trying to do we saw Kenzie's journey we saw Kenzie's story but I think that
[00:42:20] what we saw of Kenzie was like more of her being a compassionate person and her struggles and all of
[00:42:29] the adversity that she faced but we didn't necessarily see so much of like uh here are
[00:42:35] the moves that Kenzie is going to pull off and ultimately does but it seemed like I mean she
[00:42:41] didn't even deny that right that she didn't wasn't the one leading moves and to me that's always been
[00:42:46] like sort of um you know one of the most important criteria but you know she when when Soda I love
[00:42:52] Soda's question I want to get this question like every season you know here's how I what about the
[00:42:56] timer you like the 30 second timer didn't love the timer I did not love the timer um I have like
[00:43:00] I wondered if that was like did they come up with that did Tiffany come up with that on the spot
[00:43:04] like did production tell them that because you do clear your questions with production so I wonder
[00:43:08] if they're like well we don't want people like you know talking too much I do wonder if they were
[00:43:11] like keeping an eye on the clock because then Jeff said all right all right closing statements 30
[00:43:15] seconds everybody like uh it's like a lot of 30 seconds uh like lightning round it's possible that
[00:43:21] like you know it was it was production mandated because otherwise it's very strange but anyway
[00:43:26] it's a great question you know um how how um here's how I perceive you like respond to that
[00:43:32] basically um and you know for Kenzie she said I think you're a social player you know you went
[00:43:36] along with votes and she's like yep that's me um and you know you have to do so much to get to the
[00:43:43] end of Survivor that like everybody is you know making moves is like this sort of like abstract
[00:43:49] concept like what does that even mean you know you're not like out there corralling votes yeah
[00:43:53] but you're still positioning yourself constantly and and being there for people and I mean like
[00:43:58] social game is sort of like you know kind of Scott that but it's it's like part of it it's a big part
[00:44:02] of it yeah and also a move requires a lot of people and other than playing the hidden immunity
[00:44:08] aisle which we've seen juries love that it's very hard to like take a lot of ownership for okay four
[00:44:13] people write down Maria's name it's hard for you know Charlie to come away from that and then
[00:44:18] say unless the only way that you know I guess you do and maybe this is sort of the genesis of
[00:44:23] I got to take out my number one when people see that you wrote down the name of a person oh like
[00:44:28] that person had to have been on board to take out the number they would have never gone along with
[00:44:33] voting out that person they were so close and so that must have been one of their moves it's so
[00:44:39] interesting because I was thinking about back to token chains as I often do um and um I was like
[00:44:45] that this stuff never crossed my mind you know I was I was aware of it with like the viewers like
[00:44:49] I remember when Aaron said let's take out Tyson like when I was like I'd been kind of trying to
[00:44:54] like lead that conversation but she actually said the words and I was like oh no she's gonna get
[00:44:57] credit for it but like I only thought of that in terms of like the viewers I didn't think of it
[00:45:02] in terms of the jury like what and obviously like you know my jury management maybe not ideal but
[00:45:08] um you know I wasn't I don't think any I mean I don't know were you thinking about that in the in
[00:45:12] the ancient days like here's what like here are my moves like you're thinking like am I playing a
[00:45:17] strategic game like can I like point to having controlled the game you know that was a big
[00:45:20] concern of mine um with aligning with the exile alliance and Brendan was like I didn't want to be
[00:45:25] seen as a follower but like I wasn't thinking of like this one is my move and that one is your move
[00:45:29] like it just didn't even cross my mind. So I guess in Surviving the Amazon I did vote out my number one uh
[00:45:34] I voted I guess I voted up my number one and then I voted out uh like my other number one uh back
[00:45:39] to back uh but they were going after each other and so yeah but I didn't do either with the
[00:45:45] point of like oh the jury's gonna love this yeah right exactly wait till the jury does this I I did
[00:45:50] it because I didn't like where I stood in those particular alliances so the game was very different
[00:45:56] than final two versus final three I think is also easier to differentiate uh between so it's
[00:46:02] something that's definitely changed. And I do think like the new jury format which are like they did
[00:46:07] less if they didn't do that right they didn't do out way I'll play out last yes I loved what they
[00:46:10] did with the jury yeah I thought it was great do you think it was production or do you think it was
[00:46:14] a organic choice from the jury? I think it was production I think so too. Every person had a
[00:46:18] question right I think that's like it was kind of like a mix of yes what was great about the old
[00:46:23] jury which was everyone comes in with their question but there was also a little bit of like
[00:46:27] you know back and forth allowed which I also I think it's good right you a little a little bit of
[00:46:30] back and forth it's good yeah um but everyone got to speak in a way that hasn't always been the case
[00:46:34] where other people people have dominated so I think they did a great job yeah um one of the
[00:46:37] things that that I uh tried to articulate in the newsletter that I wrote was also that I think
[00:46:44] that there's a disconnect between what actually wins you the game and what players think you need
[00:46:49] to do to win the game. Yeah no PS like I just like a pause to say the newsletter was great Rob
[00:46:56] I was really like where do you get the time like it was very like it was like long I mean it was
[00:46:59] thoughtful it was funny you know you must have a ghostwriter because there's no you're not you
[00:47:03] know any of those things um yeah um no but no but really you did you did a really great job thank
[00:47:09] you very much that means a lot to me coming from you yeah um but no it was it was great I and then
[00:47:15] like I I you know I'm not like reading out of loyalty I'm I was like oh this is interesting
[00:47:19] all this is you know like I'm you know I don't care screw you Rob but but no it's great um yeah
[00:47:24] yeah so so you also subscribe to the newsletter thank you so much yes but yeah what do you think
[00:47:30] about that because I do think that there is some value in terms of like okay eventually there was
[00:47:34] a point where Charlie needed to take out his number one if he was going to win the game but
[00:47:40] for the most of the players that were trying to do this all along the way uh that was not the case of
[00:47:45] what was you know what was going to ultimately win in the game yeah I do think I mean you know Dr.
[00:47:50] Amanda pushed back and she said you know it's not just about being a social player it's about kind
[00:47:53] of like whatever matrix right of you know you have to have some moves and be some social like there's
[00:47:58] like you know and each juror is going to go differently obviously I mean that's part of it
[00:48:02] too right you've got someone like Soda who's going to say like even though I think you know my heart
[00:48:05] wants to give Kenzie this money I think Charlie played the better game and you're going to have
[00:48:09] someone like Maria who wants to give you know to the person who reminds her of herself so you know
[00:48:13] so much of Survivor is about luck and some of that luck or no the greatest part of that luck is who
[00:48:18] you're cast with and um that's you know obviously its effect is you know affects the jury stage as
[00:48:24] well but um I do think it is sort of like a matrix but I do wonder like how much that matrix now in
[00:48:31] new era I mean obviously there's like old era players who won being perceived as like social
[00:48:37] I mean Natalie White is the obvious example and then Michelle to to to a degree over more strategic
[00:48:43] players but like I feel like that's like much more a thing now am I just like miss am I wrong
[00:48:48] well that idea of this person reminds me of myself is a powerful one I don't think that
[00:48:53] we've talked about that a lot in terms of how juries vote I mean because I think that okay
[00:48:58] if um you know that's the case that Maria votes for Kenzie because you know she reminds me of
[00:49:04] myself as a woman with fire in her eyes I also think that that was a big reason why Tevin cast
[00:49:10] the vote for Charlie uh versus Kenzie because I think that if you take a look at the game that
[00:49:15] Tevin was trying to play I do think that Kenzie was the person that was able to execute on that type of
[00:49:21] game that uh that she played even for some ways I think that uh for Q like uh looking at Kenzie
[00:49:28] and maybe even for Tiffany of like okay oh yeah that reminds me of like she's the person that came
[00:49:32] from the same place that I came from in the game that those were that we were all three of us
[00:49:37] together on that beach and look at us and then like that also represents my story that this person
[00:49:44] who went through all the same things that I do uh went on to win the season so I think that that's
[00:49:49] something that we should also be considering of like who reminds the jurors and it's hard for us
[00:49:53] to tell um but who who's giving something that the jurors can latch on to and say like okay that was
[00:50:01] that little piece of me is also winning the game yeah I mean that is really what um you know Ethan
[00:50:08] said to me before I went out for second chance was like what I try to do is I try to like he tries to
[00:50:11] do is he tries to like connect with each person according to what they need from him whether like
[00:50:15] being the buddy or the brother obviously like a lot of you know Boston Robb does does that you
[00:50:19] know I think there's a lot of a lot of people I mean you know and and you saw with Jeremy with
[00:50:24] the parents right yeah yeah I mean really it's true I mean and Cochran you know Cochran said
[00:50:28] like you know he would always try to you know throughout the jury phase and this is slightly
[00:50:32] different and I know I've said this before like mention the jurors as much as he could
[00:50:37] throughout tribal council just to kind of give them the feeling that their game was still alive
[00:50:41] you know in you know to make and then therefore like positively associate with him I thought that
[00:50:45] was really smart um but yeah it's it really is like so much about that I mean I don't totally
[00:50:50] agree with you about Tevin since Tevin's whole thing was like I need to vote on my
[00:50:53] number one ally so I can have like this like big impact on the game but I do think like overall
[00:50:57] uh yeah and and and you know Kenzie coming from Yonu too like that is not to be underestimated
[00:51:02] like the very fact that she was on this disaster tribe you know she did survive that I think that
[00:51:07] kind of like gives her some resume credentials that Ben didn't have right like Ben also a social
[00:51:13] player also didn't necessarily you know lead any votes but like he doesn't have this like you know
[00:51:17] hard-bitten I went to all these tribal councils I survived all these tribal councils like now
[00:51:22] you know I made it to the to the very end um you know he doesn't have that kind of of resume okay
[00:51:27] we touched on a little bit uh the SIA award coming to an end do you have any uh thoughts
[00:51:33] about the end of the SIA era I know I mean like you know good for her for ending it I've been sad
[00:51:39] for contestants but like you know I'm glad she doesn't feel trapped to do something she's not
[00:51:43] passionate about did you think that there was anything to it that Jeff in his announcement
[00:51:47] said that Survivor is bringing the SIA award to a triumphant end I I mean like this is purely
[00:51:55] speculation my perspective based on absolutely nothing right zero expertise zero insight
[00:52:02] zero inside information is um that like Survivor loved having the SIA award that's what I thought
[00:52:09] too for them they they like you know it was it was Jeff was really into it um it's obviously
[00:52:14] great press for them you know like adds like a potential you know another news cycle for the for
[00:52:19] the finale um so my guess is SIA probably was the one who wanted to end it right at a certain point
[00:52:24] like you're tired of having to and you know like maybe she didn't have like three people I was like
[00:52:27] I don't want to like keep like finding people to give 50,000 dollars to you know um and that
[00:52:34] she probably like texted Jeff like hey Jeff I don't want to do this anymore like it's been great
[00:52:38] but like can you can you deal with this for me and he was like yeah I got it I got it SIA yeah
[00:52:42] and so then she didn't want to like you don't want you don't know blame SIA you know like like
[00:52:46] so they probably took the onus on themselves because like you know not like put it put the
[00:52:50] burden on her to like deal with it yeah I just uh thought they could say SIA has informed us
[00:52:56] that the SIA award is coming to an end no but then it's like SIA why did you end it you know
[00:53:01] she doesn't want to deal with that she's got other things going she's you know she's got a very busy
[00:53:04] life I guess so all right anything else that's top of mind for you before we get to some questions
[00:53:12] I mean should we talk about the other big scandal that I saw on social media
[00:53:17] was just Q's Q's jury question and that's how people really were upset about that yeah which
[00:53:21] to me was surprising because I mean I agree that people should not be basing their vote
[00:53:26] and just to remind people it's been a week uh that Q had asked about that what are you going
[00:53:30] to do with the money right and like PS Kenzie had a great answer right um although it was funny like
[00:53:37] Charlie like said like well I'm gonna use it to pay off my law school and then there's like a symbol
[00:53:42] like nefarious lawyer um do you think that was a statement for student loan forgiveness
[00:53:49] but you know Kenzie had like such an emotional plea about like you know it wasn't just about
[00:53:54] like here's where the money's going it's also like here's what this means to me here's what
[00:53:56] this game means to me here's like what I'm gonna like do with this game and like I understand why
[00:54:01] people would like be a little bit um not love that like because you want the game to be pure
[00:54:07] you want it to be a self-contained box but it's not it's all these real people coming together
[00:54:11] bringing their real lives together and you know throughout the history of the show people's jury
[00:54:16] votes have been determined based on who they think deserves it more or needs it more you know I'm
[00:54:21] sure that part of why Sandra won Heroesville and like sure like I mean I've actually heard people
[00:54:24] say you know was that she's a you know a military mom and you know I mean obviously that contribute
[00:54:29] you know part of that was her position in the game and the game she played but it was also like you
[00:54:32] know she's she's a mom of two and her husband's deployed and she was in the military you know so
[00:54:37] um I think that there that has just never been nobody has ever taken those considerations out
[00:54:44] of it and you know for Q to make it explicit maybe feels a little sour for some but um or
[00:54:49] to reduce it to that maybe it's just not making it but it's reducing it to that. But that's that
[00:54:52] question has always been a part of the history of the show and I don't think that we should be
[00:54:56] policing the questions that the jurors can ask at the final tribal council so it's been a part of
[00:55:03] the show uh if not from the first season from it certainly the second season so I don't know why
[00:55:08] we would change that now. And P.S. Charlie could say whatever he wants he doesn't have to be truthful
[00:55:12] he doesn't have to be like oh I'm gonna use it he can be like I'm the first person in my family to
[00:55:17] go to college I my sister has seven young bring in youngins here's my advice for all future players
[00:55:23] claim you've got a lot of youngins in your family you know you can just do it you have to literally
[00:55:27] call them youngins yeah I think the youngins I think that helps um yeah I think that that um you
[00:55:33] know that is like just like make some have some like bs story you know if you're well off or you
[00:55:38] don't you know you're a lawyer or something have some bs story that you've got for final trial
[00:55:41] where you're gonna be like this is the truth for me you know like the my wife at home is pregnant
[00:55:46] with triplets yeah yeah exactly they're all my first sons you know because that seems to be big
[00:55:52] you know they're um yeah like just just make something up you don't have to tell the truth
[00:55:57] yeah okay all right Steven uh any thoughts hot takes on the Survivor After Show
[00:56:06] um no you know nothing I mean everyone has said the thing like it's like hard to watch you know
[00:56:11] Charlie was so graceful um you know in terms of gracious gracious um I'm sure he was graceful
[00:56:16] as he grabbed things yeah gracious yeah um but you know in terms of being able to both express
[00:56:22] his disappointment and you know reward or celebrate Kenzie for for the amazing game she
[00:56:28] played like that's that's really great and that's hard especially right in the moment you know
[00:56:31] especially when he thought that I mean he really probably thought he was winning you know those
[00:56:34] three votes my god I would much rather have no votes than three votes yeah especially when Ben
[00:56:39] has said that he would cast the tiebreaker vote for Charlie yeah poor Charlie I mean that really
[00:56:44] sucks he'll be reliving that a lot okay all right let's uh see some of the questions uh things that
[00:56:52] we haven't talked about um okay uh Mark says did we find out who the person was that wouldn't win
[00:56:58] against any of these players did you think that Jeff's comments to open the season ended up
[00:57:04] being relevant to how the season ultimately played out no I mean I just thought that was
[00:57:09] just like a thing he wanted to say about the social dynamics of the game and that it made
[00:57:14] it in there I don't think it was like the theme of the season okay uh what about Stephen you had
[00:57:19] Kenzie pegged uh as the winner based on edit reading for some time uh yeah but I also misread
[00:57:27] other people I mean for what it's worth you know it took a while to figure it out okay uh this is
[00:57:31] a question uh is there a way to edit a social winner that explicates why they win without
[00:57:36] making it so obvious that they do win yeah I mean the I don't know I mean is it so obvious I don't
[00:57:45] think most people thought that you know I don't think people like I think when you're like
[00:57:48] obsessively watching this stuff and commenting on it and discussing it on social media as I am
[00:57:52] you know and hearing other people's opinions and stealing them for your own I wouldn't know
[00:57:56] I'm being influenced by other people's opinions um you know then it's like if there's any edit
[00:58:00] manipulation at all like obviously you're you know more attuned to that and sometimes you can
[00:58:04] still be wrong um but so I thought they did a good job with Kenzie I didn't feel like she was
[00:58:09] shoved down our throats I did think you know they highlighted her game you know I wouldn't necessarily
[00:58:14] have predicted Ben made the final tribals based on his you know last few episodes um so I thought
[00:58:20] you know I think they're doing a pretty good job you know in the 30s it did feel like there was a
[00:58:24] very heavy-handed winners edit where like you could you know from episode one of 39 or um
[00:58:30] or of 36 you know you kind of knew who was winning those seasons Wendell and Tommy respectively um
[00:58:35] but but um you know I feel like they're doing a really good job with it. You felt like the edit was
[00:58:39] uh heavy on Wendell because I feel like that we like going into the finale I think that we were
[00:58:44] pretty uh torn famously between uh Dom and Wendell of who was the winner. That was about who played the better
[00:58:49] game but like I I'm no I thought Wendell I mean I thought Wendell like in the first in the first
[00:58:54] episode he had this whole like a whole scene about himself as a furniture maker and how that was
[00:58:59] going to like affect his strategy like and that was the case with Tommy too he had like he had a
[00:59:02] bit about like here I'm a teacher and here's that there was always like a segment for the winner
[00:59:08] often in the first episode about like their profession outside of the game and how that
[00:59:12] was going to affect their like strategy and winning chances. Yeah I don't think that they did anything
[00:59:16] wrong here with the editing I feel like that you know we are so we are in the like uh 0.01%
[00:59:24] of people that like scrutinize this stuff and so yeah sure we're gonna pick up on things that the
[00:59:30] average like of the millions of millions of people that are watching the show uh aren't necessarily
[00:59:35] tuned into. Yeah yeah and you know there's like little like they have to insert the winning player
[00:59:42] in places that they might not obviously be so that we like can care about that person and can see
[00:59:47] them and and you know all because you want a satisfying winner and that was you know that
[00:59:50] was what people complained about Gabler so much right it was like where did this guy come from
[00:59:53] like I didn't know he was hiding he was hiding too too much in plain sight um you know and so
[00:59:58] I think like that led to a course correction where they wanted to show the winner more I think you
[01:00:02] know because there was such a backlash to this sort of like what with Gabler. Yeah and Kenzie to
[01:00:09] me also super satisfying winner um yes great winner like don't get it twisted people. Yeah I
[01:00:16] think the problem that is like because Charlie played such a great game um and was like a very
[01:00:20] like likable character you know there's this like that doesn't mean Kenzie didn't deserve it like she
[01:00:24] played a great game too she like you know and and was extremely extremely compelling as you know you
[01:00:31] know Banu said it best right like she's like like uh really great. That's what he said I think so
[01:00:38] yeah yeah really great okay yeah all right um a question from John Schull did you like the 90
[01:00:44] minute episodes in September 46? I thought they moved nicely despite not being planned in Winters
[01:00:49] at War you could tell which scenes they inserted when they got more airtime on late notice but
[01:00:53] not here for most episodes only the challenges went long can production get away with not
[01:00:58] overstuffing episodes like in 45 and still fill 90 minutes? Yeah I mean I liked I really liked 45
[01:01:04] by the way I thought 45 the pacing was great I didn't feel like those episodes were overstuffed
[01:01:08] I thought the pacing I mean like I actually preferred the pacing of 45 to 46 um but but um
[01:01:14] yeah I mean episodes two through four were painful though right like they were there it was just
[01:01:18] awful how those you felt every second of those episodes but but following that you know following
[01:01:22] Banu's elimination it was uh it moved very briskly I agree. How do you think that Survivor 46 changed
[01:01:31] the way that the players look at the game? Okay so Survivor 47 uh we saw the trailer for it
[01:01:37] these players I think that the last episode they saw was the Tiffany boot they didn't get to see
[01:01:43] ultimately how Charlie and Maria ultimately unraveled they didn't get to see that Kenzie
[01:01:48] won the game didn't get to see the final two of four idols in a row that went out so based off
[01:01:56] of what they saw do you think that Survivor 47 is uh fundamentally different than 46? Um no.
[01:02:07] What do you think you tell me what you think it's a good question what do you think?
[01:02:12] I do feel like that I wonder if especially at the point that they left when they started to see okay
[01:02:18] well Tevin is going after his number one and then ultimately then he then then he goes out and then
[01:02:24] we so we you know we saw a lot of people saying I gotta go after my number one and then ultimately
[01:02:29] it not working and they just saw 45 where a really an alliance based game ended up being
[01:02:37] the the you know winning game in Survivor 45. I do wonder if even without seeing how this season
[01:02:45] played out that I wonder if there might be less of the like early merge I need to target my own
[01:02:52] people. I hope that's the case I mean you know you do hope you know as you're saying 47 left
[01:02:58] with this narrative still being the predominant narrative and it's hard to when you're watching
[01:03:03] that narrative you're like oh maybe you do you know like Kenzie's like I gotta vote up my number
[01:03:05] one ally Tevin's like I gotta vote up my number one ally maybe maybe that's like a thing you do
[01:03:09] need to do you know before you actually get to the results and and see um the the yeah I mean
[01:03:16] I hope that you're right about that that like it leads to like less less silliness you know less
[01:03:21] less like uh but again you know Carolyn and Jam Jam right like Carolyn should should she have
[01:03:28] voted out her number one ally like you know it's like it's a dumb idea to vote at your number one
[01:03:32] ally and tell it's like the most important thing in your whole game. Yeah okay speaking of Carolyn
[01:03:36] did you see the news maybe Carolyn and Tony on the trade? Tony wow it's a chaotic Survivor duo
[01:03:44] yeah I love it I'm very excited by that. Yeah okay Steven uh what else is on your
[01:03:51] mind as we start to get to the end of Survivor 46? This was all the stuff Rob I feel like we
[01:03:57] talked about all the things what about you? Yeah I just thought that this was uh lively today
[01:04:04] I thought this was great you know um I'm really glad that we were able to I know we couldn't do
[01:04:09] it last week but we were able to get you today and I felt like you didn't miss a beat.
[01:04:15] Oh thank you thank you thank you well I watched it late you know which uh I don't I you know
[01:04:19] it's so fun to watch it I I missed doing it last week um and it really is a function of hotel
[01:04:23] wi-fi I just couldn't couldn't trust that I'd be able to podcast reliably. Oh but but um yeah
[01:04:30] that you had an issue with uh one of my hot takes from the podcast last night. Oh yeah yeah yeah
[01:04:36] um no I ultimately agree with you but you you want to you want to set it up? Yeah my hot take
[01:04:40] from the podcast I got very animated you can see the whole thing uh Rob has a podcast a Twitter
[01:04:45] account uh posted it but it drives me crazy that they spend so much money to build a new tribal
[01:04:53] council every single season of the show and from what I understand they spend hundreds of thousands
[01:05:01] of dollars to make a new tribal council every single season of the show and yes this season
[01:05:11] it was certainly distinct but I think that most seasons uh you cannot tell the difference from
[01:05:16] one tribal council to another and why do who cares why do we need a different set for every tribal
[01:05:24] council? Yeah why do they need to go to different locations like why do there need to be different
[01:05:29] contestants why do they even go to a different locations yeah and people hate that you know like
[01:05:35] that's uh you know people uh so I joked I said like Rob's hot take is let's make the seasons
[01:05:40] even more indistinguishable than they already are but um I mean I I hear you like I don't really
[01:05:45] care what the tribal council set looks like nobody does like you might as well just make it the same
[01:05:49] especially because the seasons aren't themed anymore like when you were going to China or
[01:05:53] Brazil or they don't you know you have the stadium that the team plays at and and you love the stadium
[01:06:00] you wouldn't want them to tear down the stadium at the end of the year and build a new one every
[01:06:04] single year. Um yes exactly exactly I mean like I think that's especially because they're on the
[01:06:11] same beaches like do something else and also you can't even tell it's so dark you can't tell you
[01:06:16] really cannot tell it's a fire it's Jeff it's the contestants like there's that one wow moment when
[01:06:21] they walk in it's cool for the contestants but I don't know but so far other than Bruce and
[01:06:27] Bruce didn't even go there none of them have ever seen it before yeah it's not like oh this place
[01:06:32] again yeah um so so I I actually I do agree with you because like who really like that's not that's
[01:06:39] not what's going to change anything it's not moving the needle you know and save some time.
[01:06:42] Jeff brags about it on the On Fire podcast about how they have to like oh well we had the other
[01:06:47] cast coming in so we had to actually build the other tribal council underground so that we could
[01:06:52] like who cares even if you even if you rebuilt it once a year and kept the same tribal council for
[01:06:59] 41 and 42 they had all the same twists and challenges in 41 to 42 but they had to build a
[01:07:04] different tribal council. Yeah no I'm with you on that Rob I it's like uh I mean I was being glib
[01:07:09] but like I do agree that sort of like yeah I truly I could not tell you what other than like the
[01:07:15] chess board in season 44 I don't think I could remember a single detail from a hate seeing our
[01:07:19] survivor tax dollars be wasted like this Steven yeah yeah maybe that should be the new sea oh
[01:07:25] there's a Q prize though too what do you think the the Q the Qmeo prize twenty thousand dollars a
[01:07:30] season that's crazy he's just doing cameo just to give it to other contestants yeah allegedly
[01:07:38] he's like working hard at this unless he changes his mind yeah yeah right he's gonna quit he's
[01:07:43] gonna quit the Q prize yeah okay all right it wasn't a quit it was uh you know he was taking
[01:07:48] ownership yes all right Steven uh what's coming up for you you know just uh doing what I do
[01:07:54] between you know in the summer and the survivor off seasons yes okay well what is that yeah
[01:07:59] standing still yeah morning yeah okay well I hope we can find some ways for you to podcast this
[01:08:05] summer oh great I'd love to you know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna play a lot of blood on the
[01:08:09] clock tower a lot a lot a lot do you want to play you want to play some time I would play if you
[01:08:14] look uh it's not my favorite game but if you were playing I I couldn't I couldn't pass yeah I just
[01:08:20] I don't like that there's no it's like okay here's information but it was actually you got fake
[01:08:24] information like uh it's just like what's great about it yeah no okay but that's that's why it's
[01:08:28] like a social game because like if I wanted to think I was getting information and then find out
[01:08:33] it was fake information I would go on the internet just ask chat gpt um no but like that's
[01:08:40] what that's why it's like survivor is because you depend on your social reads to like verify your
[01:08:46] information okay all right well look if I get invited to the same one as you I'll be there okay
[01:08:51] oh great great great all right yeah follow steven fishback he's lighting it up on x.com
[01:08:58] whoa all right uh check out the podcast we did wednesday night with mike and shannon it was
[01:09:04] a very fun one and then starting on friday uh mike bloom will be kicking off the survivor
[01:09:10] wish list for survivor 50 with our discussion of survivor borneo and then chapelle and i had a good
[01:09:15] one on a tuesday night as we had the finale of club condo thank you all so much for joining us
[01:09:21] take care everybody have a good one bye bye owning a business isn't just an occupation
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