Drew Basile Talks Survivor 50 Ep 12

[00:00:08] Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back with you. And look, I'm so pumped up. This is one of my favorite podcasts that I get to do because we are here with somebody who, of course, is well-versed in all of the history of Survivor and the new era. People call him the Siree of Jeopardy. Here he is. It's Drew Basile.

[00:00:34] Oh my gosh, Rob. Thank you so much. Every time I come on here, you make me blush more and more and more. But honored to be in the Rob Sesternino of Survivor's company. And yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, great to have you back. And I'm always looking forward to hearing what you have to say about things. And I feel like that even if it's not necessarily something that I agree with, you're always going to give us something interesting to talk about. So excited for this conversation. No pressure. What's new with you?

[00:01:04] Oh my gosh, not much. Actually, you know, I was going to say not much, but actually a lot is new with me very suddenly. You know, as to these podcasts, I really do love them. Many in the audience may not know that before you go on Survivor, you go through a little period of press training, which is basically like, you know, here's some diversity inclusion kind of rules and here's what you should say and what you shouldn't say. And I kind of fell asleep during my portion of that.

[00:01:26] And so I just, I just kind of, I'm like balls to the wall in the podcast. I think if I had been paying attention for that class, you're like Rick Devins. Yeah. In a way, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like a worse and scrawny version, but, but yes. And so since sleeping through that class, a lot's been going on. I've been watching season 50, which I think is a real return to form. I've liked it a lot more than the last two.

[00:01:49] So, um, it was on Jeopardy and I actually have a, this is the first time officially, you know, saying this, but I have a trivia book game book coming out for the holidays. So stay tuned for that. Wow. Congratulations. Do you need any book writing advice? You know, uh, yeah, well, I, I feel like, uh, I'm in the middle of mine. You've gone through the other side. You're going to have to give me some, uh, give me some tips, give you some tips, uh, going through it, but yeah, very excited, uh, to see what you come up with.

[00:02:17] And is there a theme for, is this, is, is it tied into like, is this like trivia of, are you allowed to say like, Hey, if you want to be on Jeopardy, this is the book for you. Yeah, totally. So I thought that like, you know, Jeopardy trivia questions. Well, I don't want to step on the trademarks, but I thought Jeopardy, like you're really good at like, you know, you got to tell the truth of Jeopardy, but then Survivor, I was, I was pretty good at lying, you know? So we need like, we need to combine the two. And so the format is two truths and a lie. Uh, the way that the game book works is that we've got,

[00:02:47] sections for every kind of category you could think of. Um, so there's like an art section and history section, et cetera. And it's designed to kind of like play along with, with you and your friends. And, and, and hopefully it's funny. I've got some great editors making it a little bit funnier. Uh, and, uh, and yeah. Okay. Looking forward to checking it out. Of course, uh, two truths and a lie is a Survivor preseason staple.

[00:03:09] Also, I feel like, Oh really? Yeah. I feel like that. I mean, going back to Josh Wiggler and, and, uh, some of the preseason press that he would do. So I think that there's no shortage of Survivors doing two questions and a lie in the past. So this is great. Oh, good. Yeah. It's a good way to train for Jeopardy or Survivor. Maybe this will be my, is my pitch in the advertising campaigns and such. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You were telling me right before we came on that you're battling dehydration.

[00:03:37] Yeah. Uh, yes I am. Um, well actually as part of writing this book, I'm on like the psychology portion now. And I was explaining this to you, but, but I really didn't appreciate how much of the brain was water. I mean, the brain is like three pounds. I mean, you know, if you're really smart, it might be a little bigger, but like 75% of that is water. So then I've been dehydrated this week. I've so dehydrated. I felt like I was hung over and I wasn't. And I started to think like, Oh my God, all that water is coming out of my brain.

[00:04:03] My brain is shrinking. My brain could be half the size and I've got to go on this podcast and say all these like intelligent things. Maybe, I mean, what aspirationally. And so I've really just been like hydrating, you know, hitting the water bottle, uh, get some Gatorades and I, you know, kind of to refresh myself. In the morning too, you know, wake up and I wake up and I pound water and I put, and I put like sea salt, mineral salt in the water. Do you actually? I do. Yes.

[00:04:32] That's like, that's like how you know you've made it. You know, when you're, when you have like the Evian and you're like artisanal water. It's regular water. I just put it on my butt. Uh, really before you drink coffee, I tried to tell my wife about this. She's like, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm putting, I'm drinking coffee. I'm not, I'm not, uh, going to do drink water before I drink coffee, but what are you going to do?

[00:04:54] All right. But Drew, listen, the, the diminished brain power on survivor, they get dehydrated, they don't eat. And that's why they make crazy decisions. And so we'll talk about where we're at. But it was what a, you know, this was a double episode and, and thank goodness we got at least two normal tribal councils here at the final seven and the final six.

[00:05:17] And I would say that I was grateful that they did this in this way, because I kind of felt like that in the, with the 90 minute format, I thought that they had an opportunity to do more tribal, two tribal councils, one episode, as opposed to the direction they went with, hey, let's do all sorts of wacko squid game type stuff throughout season 50 and not try to squeeze two tribal councils into one episode.

[00:05:47] Yeah, it's a great point, Rob. And I feel like the selling point behind the 90 minute episodes was that there would be more time for camp life, but then we've kind of like compensated where now there's less, you know, there's less actual camp lifetime than ever before. I mean, these castaways are probably spending like five or six hours actually awake at camp between tribal council and challenges. And so we've kind of like, we have this weird problem where it's like 90 minutes would have been great for 39 day seasons, but now 26 day season with like, you know, 26 or however many contestants.

[00:06:16] I mean, we really are crammed. Yeah. I thought that like the, especially with seven people on the beach, the double, double tribal council episode, you know, it was perfectly paced. I mean, it felt like it was moving in a way that like other episodes maybe have dragged. And, you know, I like to see it. I thought we could have cut some of those split tribals or, you know, voting for two people on one parchment that have kind of like fattened up the middle of the season. Yeah. There was a number of episodes this season where there was like a lot of stuff going on.

[00:06:45] And then it's like tribal council and back to back tribal councils where that you sort of like, okay, wait, what was going on? You got to keep track of what was happening back at camp. We even had one episode where we had a lot of scrambling and then three consecutive tribal councils all in one episode. So, yeah. So, I think that the pacing was better here.

[00:07:04] And you do get to a point where, especially in this stage of the game where, you know, these final sixes and, you know, especially when it's like a lopsided vote, there's not that much going on. And sometimes that these episodes are a little stretched. Yeah, I agree. But the flip side is I actually thought that this episode was like edited a little bit differently than the other ones this season. I thought the editing was a lot sharper. I thought like the tribal council felt pretty natural when they were joking about food and stuff. And that's the kind of content we'd like to see.

[00:07:34] And Rick's discussion of the stars was really beautiful. I actually, that to me, that's like the most accurate description anyone's ever given of what it feels like at the highest moments of like Survivor. You know, the best aspects of Survivor. You really do feel that way. And then the other kind of wrinkle about the editing I thought was unique is that the music was a lot more urgent than it typically. Like they were using musical cues that were considerably more direct.

[00:08:00] And I felt like it gave the episode a lot more life and helped me stay very narratively involved. And what is sometime kind of like a doldrum of the season. The music that they have returned to a lot of the old scores for the classic Survivor over the course of the season, especially during the tribal council. I did notice it during the camp life that there was some of the older Survivor classic music along the way.

[00:08:28] I just, I like that, that in season 50, they have gotten away from some of the cookie cutter-ness of the new era. Totally, totally. And a lot of that is kind of like an infusion of like our roots a little bit. You know, the whole point of Survivor, the new era has kind of been that it's like rootless, that it's like this fresh start and we have like a new audience now and new people and there's no, you know, there's kind of firm line. And then kind of like bringing back the people who made the show. Yes.

[00:08:59] In the same way that Survivor always makes you wear the same clothes, the same colors that you appeared the first time. I mean, similarly, we kind of are going to return to some of these older storytelling techniques that made everyone fall in love with like Seri and Ozzy and Jenna Lewis back in the day. So it's very refreshing. Drew, I have an analogy that I've been wanting to use on the podcast and I've been waiting for the right guest to break it out for. And I think that you might be that person.

[00:09:22] But I do feel like that Survivor in the new era is not unlike the Star Wars franchise, where that in the new era, when the force awakened and people said, yes, here we go, baby, new Star Wars movies. And we got three of them. And then by the end, did anybody really clamor for Rey and Poe and Finn and what was going on?

[00:09:51] It's not unless they bring back, oh, wait, here's Han Solo. Here's Luke Skywalker. It was really you were watching the new Star Wars movies really just to say, oh, there's Chewbacca. Chewbacca's still here. There's Lando. He's still around. It's really that people wanted to see a little bit more of the old and they couldn't really get people to care about what's happening in the new Star Wars movies.

[00:10:22] No, I totally agree. And it's like every new iteration is the barest pretense to commoditize the nostalgia for the past. You know, like we're making new ones only to find a way to resell the old, which is not like a Survivor phenomenon. Like it's a Hollywood phenomenon. Sure. Just this commitment to IP. But I do think things might be changing, you know, going back to like Two Tribes, which may be in the offing.

[00:10:48] I would be shocked if it is not, for instance, the format for 51, although I don't know that. That could be really, you know, some kind of like new blood. I think we need to return to some of the survivalism component, you know? Yeah. Like I think if they got a season hammered by bad weather, which hasn't happened in a while, that would probably be really good for the show because it would kind of force, you know, a reckoning with like the actual like, you know, this isn't a script. This is like, you know, a real material event happening to new people.

[00:11:14] But yeah, I mean, to, you know, to their credit, it's hard to keep something vital when you've done it, you know, 50 times. Sure. Absolutely. I don't know about a totally bad weather season, maybe like a specific bad weather event like next time on Survivor. It's the worst storm in Survivor history. But to do a whole bad weather season, that doesn't necessarily make for like an exciting gameplay.

[00:11:38] Like some of these seasons like Samoa or Philippines where it just like rains for 20 days in a row. Everybody's just sort of like in the shelter, like huddled up. You can't get them to go out and do stuff. You know what the last true bad weather season was, Rob? Well, 49 had like brutally hot conditions and that was bad too. Fair enough. Okay, well, the last one I was at least aware of was David versus Goliath. Yes. Where it like famously rained the entire season and they were totally miserable.

[00:12:07] But like I basically need, I need them to suffer a little bit more so that we kind of like can like see through the cracks and get some, get some, get some authenticity and like get some pain. Yeah. I think that, you know, that would be good. I like that, you know. Okay, well, let's get to the actual final seven and six votes that happen in this episode.

[00:12:28] Let me start by asking you about Rick Devins where I have sort of theorized with Rick Devins and the game that he's played and the celebration of Rick Devins. I do think that Rick Devins might spark for some new interesting play styles as Survivor heads into the 50s.

[00:12:47] Less people optimizing for the perfect strategic move of how do I really lower my risk level as long as possible and then wait to strike and make my one big move at the end. I do wonder if Rick Devins might really usher in an era of more players going for the glory. That's a great point. Yes. Great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you think I'm right. Sorry.

[00:13:17] Give me some applause outside. Yeah, it's a great point on a couple of different levels. I do. I was talking with Tyson fairly recently and he told me something I thought was so insightful. He said that playing on a returning season is actually no harder than playing on an original season because when you come back, people play the same exact way and make the same exact mistakes almost by necessity that they did the first time.

[00:13:40] And I think that one of the two advantages to having a returning season is that you're infusing all these different ways of playing the game into the new era. So like when we get 10 seasons in a row of Fiji, you know, it kind of optimizes and rationalizes and putting some new blood and could be a way to get like some of the risk taking that we loved in the 30s.

[00:14:01] And the second point about why like why Rick is good, but why also like Rick being on a new season is good is because it shows future contestants that like, okay, Survivor is a great experience. You want to have it again. Don't play safe. Like we're going to invite people back like Rick and like you who are really bold. And so then people can start. I mean, they're playing to win, but they're also playing to come back. And so that can be really beneficial, too, for like encouraging the big moves. Yeah. Yeah. Can I add to that?

[00:14:31] And also, I wonder if there's also a result of that. I don't know how much of this is the show itself or the fan base, but in addition to a celebration of Rick in the season, I feel like that there has been a real flogging of Joe and to the point where Joe was so celebrated in season 48 where Joe came back here in season 50.

[00:14:56] And while Rick was really hoisted up as like, now that's how you do it on Survivor. Like Joe has really been made to. And again, I don't think that they've really destroyed him in the edit, but it's really like a teachable moment for, hey, don't play like a Joe. People who are coming to go play Survivor play like Rick. Totally. And actually, it's funny.

[00:15:23] When I was on Survivor, I had a pretty detailed conversation with a producer about the styles of gameplay that they like and dislike. Sure. And they don't like this kind of passive, you know, kind of like social gameplay. And they actually, they blame one very specific person in the show's history for inaugurating this gameplay. Oh, interesting. I don't want to, you know, say because they're a friend of the pod, but they have like a specific person that they dislike for this kind of style. A person is a friend of the pod that they dislike.

[00:15:51] Yeah, somebody, yeah, somebody you know, I don't know, a friend of the pod could be strong, but like somebody prominent fairly in the community that they don't like and that they blame for this. And that's good. Comment in the comments below who you think. Yes. Can you give just a little bit more information about what, can you just describe the style of gameplay that it is that they don't? Is it an overly optimized, safe gameplay? Yeah. Overly optimized, safe, social, going with the numbers, just kind of like doing the least controversial.

[00:16:21] So wishy-washy decision. This is, this person's a winner. Hmm. But, but yeah, this is, this is. Okay. I'll just, okay. I feel you talked about it so much. I gotta say it. Basically they, you know, Adam, Adam from Survivor. Oh, okay. Because I felt like that, that Adam was, I thought kind of celebrated in that he was Rick Devons-esque in Winners at War, where he was really doing everything in his power

[00:16:50] to try to make his mark on the game, including that very similar to Rick Devons. And you could, I think, trace the DNA of what Rick Devons does it this season to what Adam Klein tries to do. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that they're, you know, not even, I think that the same side of the Mr. Beast coin of the, hey, it was worth a shot is Adam Klein's mantra. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree with you.

[00:17:16] I think that probably some of the kind of, you know, animus came from like the consulting business. Yeah. You know, where, where suddenly reality TV casting, you know, was, it was demystified. But, but I do think that season 33 is where this voting block talk really started, which has kind of like gone underground and it's just become such a, such the, such the default consensus that it's like not, you know. Yes. That we don't even call it voting blocks anymore.

[00:17:43] But then the thing about Adam is that Adam's game has always been like, or at least in the first season, it's like, I'm going to have this big blow up come the early merge because I get too excited. And then I'm going to retreat to the voting blocks. And then he made the same mistake on winners at war where he was like, I'm going to get too excited. I'm going to have my blow up only, you know, there wasn't a back door available to him. Yeah. And the thing about Adam is also that he ends up being part of the group that takes out David Wright, who we know was, you know, a big favorite in season 33.

[00:18:12] And then it's right after that, we end up with the final four fire making, which ends up being the way to reward the more deserving player in the eyes of the show who wants to reward the provider, the people who, you know, have a certain skill set. And so maybe that ends up being sort of like an answer to like, hey, you want to play passive and just lay in the weeds? Well, you're not going to get through making a fire. Yeah. Which is true.

[00:18:41] And we'll have to bring that back up when we talk about various, you know, win scenarios for people on this season. But yeah, I forgot how we got to this. Yeah, we were talking about the future of Survivor and how much Rick Evans is going to inform that and a real like castigation of the philosophy of Joe. Well, part of it seems to be that they are kind of like grooming Rick to be the next host, I think. I don't think that's too much to say. Oh, yeah, I think so.

[00:19:11] So with the podcast and the kind of like idea, which ended up getting nixed, but that he would be like the fire token vendor on season 50, season 40. And then when Joe was doing or when Jeff was doing the challenge, he was like, Rick, you can commentate on this. Like, okay, nudge, nudge. You know, this is like a conspiracy theorist have this term for like, you know, like priming when they'll like leave clues in the advertisements of like the next, you know, pandemic or election or whatever.

[00:19:39] But this was like we were getting primed there. But the flip side, of course, is like Joe. And I do think that with Joe, Joe probably played the exact same way on 48. But then just due to like the exigency of like having Eva there and Eva having like a fairly difficult time and relying on Joe, you're kind of like forced to take, you know, a certain position on Joe just by the, you know, even if you don't like the gameplay.

[00:20:06] Um, but, but I actually, I actually am feeling, I'm feeling bad for Joe. I don't want to do the Joe pile on. Oh, I feel bad for Joe too. Like, uh, I think that Joe is, you know, I think having a really hard time with all of this. And, you know, Joe just like, they asked Joe to come back. He's like, sure, I'm going to come back. He was the same exact guy. And like, I feel like it's been a real, a real pile on. I know just some of the, some of the comments he's been making on social media too.

[00:20:36] I, I, you know, I, I just, I do think that like going on and like getting to the, going, returning is always really hard, especially if you're not received the same way. But additionally, like it's looking like Joe is going to be coming into close to the final three, uh, with no win equity, you know, just from, I don't, I don't think I'm breaking news. So coming off a season where he lost in the final three. Yeah, exactly. And so it's like to, to lose in the same exact way and to be hated.

[00:21:04] I mean, that could be like, that can be really difficult. So, you know, it's unfortunate that Joe has to be like the sacrifice to move away from like loyal kind of like collision building gameplay, but it would probably for the health of like season 51 and 52. It's, it's for the best. You know, there's so much of this season has been about preexisting wounds and scars that people are dealing with day one alliances. Yeah. One alliances. Sure.

[00:21:28] Um, but in the case of Joe, I feel like that he came in with this season where some like a very fresh wound of that Kyle and Camilla played him a little bit at the end. And I think that he's like, I'm not, not going to let that happen to me again.

[00:21:43] And in fairness to Joe, that, that is not what happened to him again here in this season, but it does feel like that the, whatever adjustment needed to be made, like was, was not the adjustment that he made going into this game. And it's interesting that he could end up in the same exact spot, but due to different circumstances. Yeah, totally. And Jonathan is a great comparison and it's actually probably be interesting to talk about why they both like, don't seem to be respected.

[00:22:13] But Jonathan, Jonathan's lesson from playing a relatively loyal game based on strength is that I can't do that. I need to be strategic. I need to actually use that like preconception that people have of me and launder that into like deceptive gameplay where Joe's, Joe's lesson was like, okay, I played the strong, loyal game and I got deceived. I need to be better about sniffing out deceivers. Like that was like, that was the kind of like logical next step that Joe made.

[00:22:38] Like I just needed to be a, you know, better lie detector, you know, buy, so he should buy two truths and a lie for his third, you know, third run. But, but, but, you know, the kind of like opposite correction that, that people in theory should have made, but also I think somewhat of a defensible one because from the past few seasons with the exception of maybe 47, like the, the tightest group really, really does well in the new era.

[00:23:06] You know, this tight core of like Sophie Rizzo and Savannah, which, you know, he may not have seen the entire way, but was spoiled on, you know, they carried the day. Reba carried the day. I mean, you know, his kind of collision with, with Eva and, and, you know, Joe and David and whoever was there, you know, they won. So the kind of like, like tightening down on this kind of like loyal core phalanx strategy is not like absurd to me, but, but yeah, it was the wrong call for the season. Yeah.

[00:23:37] Let's then, you mentioned Jonathan and, you know, it's interesting that Jonathan too, for all the adjustments that he made, it's certainly possible that he could end up in the same exact position that he was in his original season where that he could end up going out at four once again. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:59] You know, I'm not going to like speculate on why this is or what's going on, but with the exception of Ozzy this season, I don't think in the past 10 seasons that there has been an athletic male contestant who was respected by the cast and the jury. I mean, is that, is that too far? So I would say, I just, I just to throw some people out, you know, Kyle wins in season 49. Um, I guess, Kyle wins well.

[00:24:30] Yeah. I, and Sam, I don't think was disrespected. I think that, uh, he had a good final travel council, even though Rachel ends up beating him. Um, so I'm not sure if I, but I would say that he's disrespected. I think Sam is much more, and especially if you meet Sam in real life, Sam is like much more of a kind of like nerdy kind of narrator character than you would think. I mean, very akin to like the intensity of the movie, like a Jonathan Penner.

[00:24:57] Um, although he's not like funny in the same way, not to say that he isn't funny, but I don't think that's the impression. Yeah. I don't think that's the impression Sam gives off at all. Um, this kind of archetype, but I, I do think that with the exception of maybe, maybe Kyle, maybe Caleb, for whatever reason, the athletic men are having kind of like a, an identity crisis on survivor. They can't seem to win the game for whatever reason. And part of that is because like the strength aspect of the game is discredited a little bit.

[00:25:23] Um, but, but part of it, I think is that like, maybe it's seen like they, they don't have to like, you know, struggle in the same way or people assume because they're smart, they must be stupid, which sometimes is true. And sometimes it's not. Um, but for whatever reason, they just can't get any traction and they can't, get past the kind of like meathead perception. Um, yeah. So I think it's kind of interesting. That is interesting. I do wonder why that is. If you have like a big, strong guy who wins a challenge, it's almost like, yeah, of course he's going to win the challenge.

[00:25:52] Like he's a big, strong guy. Uh, maybe it's, it, there's something wrong with the challenge. If that's who won the challenge because he's big and strong. And so they don't get the same credit for winning a challenge that maybe somebody else might get for winning a challenge. Like it's not that impressive. Totally. Totally. I completely agree. Um, and if you like skate to the end on immunities, it's almost a sense of like, well, that's actually discrediting. You didn't really play.

[00:26:19] Um, so I think that the strong guys are kind of in like a, a tough messaging position. Um, and, and Jonathan, for instance, you know, Jonathan may be a little bit manipulatable as Cerise says, although he actually, you know, wasn't manipulated this time. Um, but, but I, you know, to me, he's a guy who really has done something very unique and, and changed the way he played fairly successfully. Um, and he's making a lot of good moves.

[00:26:45] Um, and I think that of the five people remaining, he probably deserves the most strategic credit of any of them. And he's just, it's just, uh, people, nobody, nobody's going to give him that credit, you know? So it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of an interesting. So I don't disagree with the first part of what you said. I do think that Jonathan's played a really good game. Uh, why do you feel like people won't give him credit? Cause I kind of feel like if he gets to the end, I think that Jonathan has a really good case to make. Yeah. And, and certainly he needs that kind of a coach collision to come in, come in clutch for him.

[00:27:15] I think that he's in a tough spot because number one, he's new era. Uh, and there was a kind of general, um, sense that people don't want the new era to represent survivor period, but especially survivor 50. Um, the, the castaways don't want that even many in the new era. Um, so that's the first thing he's, he's butting up against. Um, but the second, the second thing that gives me pause is the way that like, the things have been edited with, with Aubrey, especially. So like he was claiming credit for it and then it flashed to like, to Aubrey.

[00:27:45] And then he was like, Ozzy was the kingpin just, just after like Ciri says Ozzy was like a moron. Um, so that kind of like, that kind of gives me a sense that like the credit that Jonathan maybe does deserve for putting some of these moves out there. Um, and for taking swings isn't, isn't being allotted to him. Yeah. That's kind of my kind of reading of the edit. Do you see Jonathan more likely as losing in the final three or being taken out before the final three?

[00:28:13] I kinda, I kinda see Jonathan losing in the final three. I think he's getting a great runner up at it. And the question is like, is he there with like Tiff, Rizzo or Aubrey? Like which of those three is winning the game? I see Jonathan more getting taken out before the final three. I do feel like that if Jonathan gets to the final three, I do, I do see him winning. Yeah. The thing is he's played, he, especially compared to the others, like, and you know, maybe we

[00:28:42] disagree, but he's played a really good game. Yeah. Like I think he's played a deceptively underappreciated game. Yeah. And, and he did go out at final four the last time. So it's very, it's very plausible. There's an 11 person jury. I'm just like, and I think I'll make a video this week where I'll try to like map the final three scenarios, but just looking at it, you feel like that Jonathan has some good allies on the jury, especially if Jonathan doesn't sit with Joe at the end.

[00:29:08] Although Joe could be a beatable opponent for Jonathan in the final three that you mentioned coach and Chrissy and Stephanie. I felt like that he did some good jury management with Ozzie who feels like that Ozzie could be a potential Jonathan voter. I maybe you have to really squint to figure out where the, maybe two more people come from, but he's got like a base already. It really depends on who he's up against. Yeah, totally.

[00:29:36] I think that like paradoxically, he really could benefit from going against Tiffany. Like if you, like I would probably be trying to play for like an all new era final, like Tiffany and Rizzo. I probably wouldn't want to go against Aubrey because she has that old era thing. And they could split Tiffany and Rizzo. Oh yeah, totally. Totally. Well, yeah, cause it's tough because whoever Sari backs will get the, will get the votes there. It's going to kind of be like a funnel. Yeah. Sari has such a magnetism on this cast.

[00:30:03] But, but Jonathan, I feel like that there's like an opening for, and it almost never works out this way on Survivor, but if there's like a five, three, three vote, you know, that's I think how Jonathan wins. Yeah. And I think that one of the benefits of having a final five of people who have kind of like not really performed or are not recognized as performing is that like, this is the first jury vote in a couple, you know, in a while where I felt like it was really up in the air. I mean, like, I'm not sure who wins what configuration.

[00:30:32] So it's kind of, you know, it'll be exciting to see next week, I guess. I do think Jonathan would lose to Tiffany in the, in the jury just to go through it. I think that I like, especially if it's like Jonathan, Tiffany, Rizzo, I feel like that's like a seven to four to zero, maybe vote where Rizzo ends up being a zero vote finalist, where I think that Tiffany ends up picking up. She's got a lot of constituents on the jury where she's friends with D. She has, she has Sari at the end of the jury.

[00:30:59] I think that she probably picks up like the, the middle nerd people in the, you know, whether it was Christian and Rick and Emily and Aubrey. Like, I think she has all those people and I think that then it's coach, Chrissy, Stephanie, Joe end up being the Jonathan votes. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you're Jonathan, you, you are 100% playing towards the Rizzo. Yeah. It ends up in that scenario.

[00:31:27] Like, I think this feels a lot like, and it's interesting because we talked about it with this final six with Aubrey and Sari there. It feels a little bit like a survivor game changers where you have, where, and probably Sarah was doing more than Aubrey has done to this point where you had Brad who stood there at the end of the game and he's like, won all these challenges. And there were people who were the Brad voters, including Ozzy in terms of Ozzy's voting record. I think he was a Brad voter.

[00:31:55] Um, and then you had Sarah who picked up the Sari and Andrea and Aubrey and Zeke, uh, type votes. Yeah. And I think that she had more of like the social votes. Actually, I think that's like a brilliant comparison because people really forget that Brad Culpepper on his returning season was actually like very strategically competent. Yeah. Like Brad was good and he stumbled around like final eight, final nine. Like he kind of lost his footing and he just was never able to stand up again.

[00:32:25] And then it kind of killed him at the end of the game. And similarly, Jonathan kind of stumbled with this like wreck out in the Ozzy plan. And, you know, we'll see if he can get his feedback under him. I think taking out Sari, um, was probably like the first step in doing that. But, but the, the, the game changer, uh, comparison is like very apt. Let's talk a little bit about Sari because ultimately she ends up going out here. And I had the pleasure of talking with Sari this morning. Just like I was thinking back to her survivor career.

[00:32:53] It is wild that including the Australian survivor season she played on five times, she goes on a very deep run to the game. You would think just like out of like luck, you know, out of one of these times you get to the end of survivor five times, one time you're going to sneak into the final three or two, unfortunately in Micronesia. And you know, it's, it's just wild that it's never worked out. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:22] I mean, like you, I want to preface it by saying that I really do think Sari is the best social game player of all time. You know, I want to, I want to preface this because the thing about Sari is that she has this like social mist, which not only affects the castaways and they all kind of love her, but seems to sometimes like affect the audience too. And so people like get really sensitive about any kind of like, you know, kind of like objective evaluation. Um, and people, if you're, if you're too sensitive, you could turn the podcast off. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're watching, you're watching me.

[00:33:49] I'm kind of notorious to like, you know, fire from the hip, but yeah, I think that Sari does have like two pretty fatal problems in her game. Um, and that like in the same way, Russell Hance is never going to win a jury vote. Sari is probably never going to make the end of the game. Um, and, and the problems are number one, really an inability to adapt to the like advantage climate of survivor, you know, has never been able to like weaponize advantages particularly well.

[00:34:18] Or she did play an extra vote last week. I know, but it may, it may have been the most layup extra vote, like usage of all time, you know, like, uh, like, uh, this is the scenario they would give you in a classroom on when to use it. Um, but, but then also, um, the physical game just can never come through and actually how bad the physical game is a testament, you know, to the social game, because Sari is so bad at challenges that she single-handedly will lose them for you.

[00:34:45] Like tribes are probably going to go to tribal one or two extra times than they would have otherwise by the merely virtue of having Sari. And yet she's so good socially that that doesn't matter, but it, but it always comes down to the, you know, to bite her at the end. Yeah. It's, it's really interesting. You know, I'll, uh, agree to disagree on the advantages part of it, but in terms of the, the quality of the social game, I wonder if Sari's social game is so good.

[00:35:11] It's actually a detriment because when we compare her to other players that are sort of like in her category, players who make it deep into the game, who don't have the ability to win challenges, who win, I think of Sandra. Sandra comes top, top of mind. Who's one, who's won twice. But the thing is about Sandra is that she is not so polished with her social game that everybody adores her. She pisses people off.

[00:35:40] She's a bit of a firebrand. And you have players like Russell who think like, I'm going to take Sandra to the end and I'm going to win the game because no one's going to vote for Sandra. And Sari comes built in with like, oh my God, we all love Sari and nobody would ever, except for Ozzy, maybe consider bringing her to the end.

[00:36:01] So it's sort of like, uh, it sounds good on paper that she's got this incredible social game and helps her cause she doesn't win the challenges, but you kind of need to have a kind of a bad social game and not win the challenges that people think that they can drag you to the end. And then you end up winning. That's sort of been the formula for players who can't win in the end game in the challenges. That's how they've won survivor.

[00:36:30] And I'm trying to think if there's an exception of the player who is bad at the challenges, who goes on to win, who then also it's like that people are sleeping on their social game. Wait, like a player who like doesn't have the best social game is bad at the challenges, but wins anyways. Yes. Or at least is perceived to have a bad social game, uh, who then goes on, goes on to win. And the problem is that nobody perceives Sari as having a bad social game.

[00:36:59] So nobody has ever tricked into taking them to the end. Yeah. I, I, I still, I guess I'd have to go through with the chart and see, you know, who, who won all the, all the seasons. Um, but, but, you know, the, the point of Sandra is interesting because like Sandra will probably never make the merge again.

[00:37:19] Like if Sandra comes back, you know, the, the kind of the flip side of the bad social game is once you've proven that you can win at the end and you can win reliably, like you have to have this godly social game to like squeak through the pre-merge. Yeah. Um, and especially if you're bad at the challenges, like from my perspective, if I was out there with Sari, like love you Sari, but like you're the first person I'm like targeting. Because you're going to send me to tribal and everyone is going to want to work with you over me.

[00:37:45] Like it really is only in virtue of this, this like angelic charismatic social game that like we can even get into the position of losing in the end game. Um, and so I think that that trade-off has to like, you know, be considered and it's why Sandra will probably struggle, you know, struggle to make an end game no matter how many, how many times she plays. Yeah. Uh, going forward. But for a while, she really was thought of as somebody who you could just bring to the end and wasn't necessarily like when her game was less respected, she was probably more dangerous.

[00:38:16] Yeah. I, I think that the, the, like Sari does still have ways to make the end game. And actually I think that, I think there was a scenario even on this season. Um, but it also doesn't really like accord with maybe what I think is like her default, uh, maybe MO from my perspective, what Sari likes to do is she wants to be the, the center of the social center of camp. And so that all of the ideas and all of the plants have to come through her just in pure, like, you know, fact of vote gathering.

[00:38:46] And so then she could kind of be like a damper, you know, how many times this season have we seen someone come to Sari with an idea and she just kind of like turns the faucet off and just like, you know, cuts off the energy. I mean, that's kind of like her gameplay. Like, let's keep things like really static. Let's, you know, keep things stable and kind of my people are, are, you know, nobody's trying to make big moves against them. And that works to a point that the reality is, is when you're such a big threat, you need the polarity of having other big threats stick around on the beach.

[00:39:15] I mean, this is the kind of meat shield strategy to a degree. Like if I was Sari under no circumstances, when I have let Rick Devins go. That's exactly what I said. And I said this, uh, going into the episode and I said this on the know-it-alls. So I did bring this up to Sari. I did say Sari, like, but, but wouldn't it have been better to keep Rick Devins around? Cause at least he, and before I even finished the question, she's like shaking her head.

[00:39:41] No, um, that, I think that Rick was probably one of the people that to, for Rick to stay, I think he was fairly like, uh, hey, you're going to let Sari go to the end. So I think that Rick was pounding the table of like, Hey, we got to get out Sari. And so for Sari, I agree with you. I think Sari needed to surround herself with big targets. And I thought it would have helped to have that Rick Devins and Joe, we're not going to get on the same page.

[00:40:08] Sari told me one thing that could have gotten Rick and Joe on the same page was we all need to get out Sari. So I think that in, in, in, but maybe going back to losing Christian, losing, uh, certainly losing Ozzy. I think that having some of these other distractions around kept people from focusing on Sari. And we just reached a point where there was no other big people to talk about. I mean, the game, the game, her game looks very different.

[00:40:35] If Ozzy is still here, I think because Ozzy is definitely on the chopping block before Sari is. Um, yeah. And to add to that, just in terms of like, if, if Ozzy survives that vote and Aubrey goes home now at this final seven, sure. Get rid of Rick Devins. Now Rick's gone at, you have a final six with Ozzy, Sari, Tiffany and Rizzo. Where's Rizzo going? Tiffany's not going anywhere. So they have a very clear shot to at least the final five and the four.

[00:41:02] And so it's a, it's a much different scenario for Sari. So I don't want to say that she was doomed no matter what, but there were a lot of people going for Ozzy for multiple votes in a row. It is conceivable, not inconceivable that they would have eventually hit Ozzy before they hit her. I totally agree. And like her calculus is basically that like Rick is targeting me now, like leaving Rick in is a really high risk situation.

[00:41:29] And I can take Rick out and I can just continue to just hope like to subtly manipulate the kind of like tide of the, of the crowd. But the problem is, is that like time and again, it's proven that that, that isn't going to work at like final five, you know, when like it's all black and white and that you, you do probably need to take the higher risk strategy of just setting Rick down and saying like, listen, we need each other.

[00:41:50] You know, it's only the dissension that like having both of us in camp, it's only that dissension that could has a chance of keeping either of us to the end. Yeah. Maybe it's, you got to have like a come to Jesus with Rick Devins. Like, Hey Rick, cut the crap. Okay. Listen, you're going to get voted out tonight. If you don't, if you don't get on the same page as us, listen, I could beat anybody here in the final three. I'm not worried. I'm not worried about you in the final three work with me. Yeah. Otherwise you're going to be out seventh.

[00:42:19] And the thing is, is I don't think Rick is like unamenable to that position because like what it really is. It's a performance. Like you stick around on me and we can kind of perform this like antagonism. Yeah. The problem is that then you go to tribal council and here's how this plays out. First of all, that's not really a series game. I'm going to like strong arm you. That's like a Boston Rob type game. You get the tribal council and Rick Devins is like, okay, everybody. So Sari told me this today that she could beat anybody in the final three.

[00:42:48] And if I don't work with her, she's going to be like, can you believe that? May not work. But, you know, that's Rick is like, you know, he wants to blow things up at tribal council. I mean, I totally take the point. And like, I am maybe advocating a losing position, but it's a consequence of the fact that like Sari really had no options. Like she was like, you know, all but dead on arrival.

[00:43:13] I said that Sari was playing this season a little bit like she was playing the traders where it's like, hey, how many of these people who can't put it together? Can I just drag to the end? And then by the time they wake up, it'll be too late. They're not going to they're not going to know what's going on. And I'm just going to sort of just like confuse them until we get to the end. Totally. And I and I think that like, you know, that's how she kind of played on Game Changers or wanted to play ideally.

[00:43:39] And I think that maybe even that's kind of an adaptation from from her loss on Micronesia. You know, like if she had opted to like side with like Alexa and Natalie over, you know, Amanda and Parvati, who know who knows how things would have shaken out? But just for a while, I watched. Yeah. So I think she did vote with them at the final six. And the problem was that Amanda played the idol. She right, right, right.

[00:44:04] And then also she gets the surprise final three or the final surprise final two there, which also hurts her in that scenario. Unclear if she wins in a final final three against Amanda and Parvati. I guess we'll never know. It is interesting to think of like which was the season that Sari was the closest to winning. I think it might have been that one, though. Yeah, I think that one, too.

[00:44:28] I mean, like if you if you're losing a season based on fire making, I didn't watch Australian Survivor, but it seemed like if she had made it, she would have won. I think that that's probably like I think that one. I'm not sure she beats Parvati in that scenario. She goes to the final three or I forget if it was the final two or three in that Australian Survivor season. I think she'd lose to Parvati in that scenario. I wonder if maybe in Panama was a final two. So, you know, like it's hard to imagine that.

[00:44:58] Well, I guess again, who knows? We're losing the thread here. Yeah. But she was very close. She was very close a number of times. Drew, tell me for season 50. What are the things that they got right in season 50? The players or production? The show. Totally.

[00:45:22] I think that bringing back returning seasons is really vital for for not just like the kind of like developing personalities and keeping like viewers invested, but even for the non-returning seasons. I mean, no returning seasons is like having like regular season NFL without the Super Bowl. Right. It's just kind of like, OK, well, this was a nice game. Like I'll can't wait to watch the next one. You know, it doesn't really doesn't really matter.

[00:45:46] So reintroducing the returning season kind of like gives some more stakes, continues to build out that like survivor, you know, mythology, which they've really been working on hard with like, for instance, like Rizzo. So I think that's good. I think that a return to your roots is probably pretty valuable. And it was great to see like so many of the old the old guys there. I think that what else have they what else have they done? Right.

[00:46:12] I think that changing up the format, even if like this isn't the fix I maybe would have chosen was probably like really refreshing. So adding more people versus like changing tribe configurations is what I would have preferred. But I think that's really a kind of positive sign that we're willing to experiment more. I think that. What else? I don't know. What am I missing, Rob?

[00:46:38] So they well, I'm in agreement on obviously the return of the idea of bringing returning players back is certainly a good one. I don't know if I'd throw out all of the twists that they that they ended up doing. I think that certainly it was too many twists along the way. I liked I think that the duos was interesting. I think that there's something that more that we could we could do. Did you feel like that that was game breaking?

[00:47:09] No, game break, but I thought it was really interesting. And I think that it has like it has so much potential, which wasn't really actualized on the season. Because like imagine if the duos are like randomly assigned or they come through like challenge performance or something like that. Then we could have a situation where it's like if my enemy is duo with my ally, like am I willing to like cut both? You know, like where do the loyalties lie? I think this kind of like duo team stuff is a much more interesting version of like let's switch into like two different teams that compete at the immunity.

[00:47:39] And then like, you know, both of them have to go to tribal. Yeah. So I really do. I do agree that I really liked the duo twist. I wasn't a fan of like the blood moon, for instance. Yeah. Nobody. I thought that the idols giving the idol to somebody else. That's a great idea. It just needs to be more transferable. I would say what if that happened once? I thought that the I think the idols were actually a miss in this season. Not even to bring Billie Eilish into it, friends of the pod.

[00:48:08] But that you had the same thing three times. And I think that that's always not that interesting when they do the same thing for all the tribes. And then you had Genevieve find two of them and give two away. And then Genevieve's not here to recoup any of the idols that got misplayed. Although Rizzo still has his idol from Genevieve. But then also I felt like that we did not have any idols in the post-merge hidden at camp. And it's like, well, what are we doing? Yeah, I guess we...

[00:48:39] Yeah. Is that true? We only had Mr. Beast idol. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're kind of like down on the idol. Like they want it to be very conditional. Did the fans not vote for it? Well, it doesn't seem to really have mattered what the fans voted for. I think we need to investigate some of these poll counts. Go in and audit some of those. But yeah, they're trying to nerf the idol to get more situational ones.

[00:49:06] But I feel like if you're dissatisfied by how staid the gameplay is, get the idols back in there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Brandon. Brandon. Don, I'm truly a friend of the pod. In fact, I believe on the pod's payroll. He had this idea a couple of years ago that I thought was just like wonderful. But his idea, he had this idea of like a verbal idol where you get an idol, but the idol is a phrase. It's not like, it's not a physical thing that you can actually play.

[00:49:35] And so like you can say the phrase at tribal or you can make up your own phrase or other people can try and like steal the phrase. For instance, you know, somebody else can like steal your phrase. I thought that was just like a really wonderful idea. But how does it work? If I say the phrase at tribal council, then I have immunity. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you can, you know, you can say that kind of code word for Jeff.

[00:49:57] But the point is, is that like, I do agree that that and like having the duos and some of these kind of more experimental twists could actually be really good for the show. You just have to like integrate them into the kind of like one boot at a time, you know, collective decisions. Yeah, it's really hard for the survivor producers that I really like want to empathize with them because I do feel like you don't want things to be stagnant.

[00:50:25] We'll complain if you keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. But it's like we want it to be like 1% different every single time. Like keep it the same, but make it a little bit of a remix, but not totally indistinguishable from what we like and what we know. And so I think they want to experiment, but we're very results oriented. Like it could have been a good twist, but somebody we like went home. And so now we don't like the twist. You know what other twist I liked?

[00:50:54] I liked Jonathan voting in both tribal councils. Yes. As like the kind of go-between. I thought that was a really great idea. And it kind of like the complexities weren't really borne out on this one because it was kind of just consensus decisions on both sides that he didn't really get to take a part on. But I think there's a lot of like potential for like taking two shots at once or conveying advantages between the beaches. I think that was a good idea that we should see return. I agree. I think that there was something there. I think it was too late to do that at the final nine.

[00:51:22] I think we reach a point where it's like a critical mass in the season where it's like, hey, like let's just let people play survivor once we get inside the final nine. But I do think that sometimes that we end up with the mergatory, like when we merged at 17, you know, I don't know if the blood moon was the right thing, but I think it's okay to do some experimentation in sort of like this middle part of the season where there's so many people left in the game. I think that that's okay.

[00:52:18] I agree. I think that's part of a winning vote. Yeah. But yeah. What do you think about if this happened in the pre-merge and let's say it's a three tribe season. Okay. And then the person who were both. Okay. So that you have a, a tribe is going to win immunity. Okay. The other two tribes are going to tribal council and they're going to pick one person to go to both tribal councils. Is that, is that interesting or is that too much power for one player? I like it. I like it.

[00:52:44] I think that they, you know, obviously tried this in game changers and it's never reappeared because Malcolm went home. Like, you know, like they did do it again in the edge of extinction. Big Wendy ended up going home. Okay. Yeah. I am not opposed to that. And I think that if instead of like having like the whole tribe, you know, tribes combined, maybe it's like, you know, two or three like emissaries. I think it could be good.

[00:53:10] But I'm not opposed to some of the more experimental kind of like, you know, adjustments that we're talking about. Yeah. I saw you commenting on chat BCC about the return of the SIA award. The SIA prize is back this season. What do you think of the SIA fan favorite award coming back for season 50? You know, I actually, again, don't hate it because, uh, you know, first of all, like

[00:53:39] more money, the contestants, we love it. Sure. Uh, but then also like it does kind of, it's, it's an art of akin to the, sorry, I saw a motorcycle outside, uh, akin to having returning seasons. It's a kind of artificial constraint that, that encourages kind of like different, more interesting gameplay, you know? Like if I can win a hundred thousand bucks for like, you know, from SIA for being emotional or like being crazy, you know, like, okay, that's some extra like incentive, you know, I'm kind of a believer that a lot of people don't have it in them to win survivor, you

[00:54:08] know, on a given cast, only maybe half the cast can actually win. You know, win survivor comfortably on their own merits outside of, you know, extenuating circumstance. So kind of, it kind of gives some life to some of these people to, you know, get out there. What do you think happened here with the SIA award? Because, you know, SIA was, you know, paying out this money hand over fist. I talked about it at the time that it seemed like it came from Jeff. Like, Hey, just so everybody knows we're not doing the SIA thing anymore.

[00:54:38] SIA is giving out too much money. We're not doing it. It seemed like it coincided with, you had Banu who came out and was playing for, because I don't think we got anybody for season 46. 46 was the first season with no SIA award. And it was at the end of the season, it was like, Oh, is anybody going to get the SIA money? And then it wasn't happening. They had already shot survivor 47, which also coincided with the chickens we had not seen

[00:55:05] for some time in the whole new era, I believe. And then all of a sudden SIA was out. The chickens were back in and, but Jeff had shut down the SIA award. Now the SIA prize is back, but it's not given out by SIA. It's a fan vote. Do you think that there was an issue with the, the, the producers felt like that players were

[00:55:28] like really patronizing to SIA with their behavior on the show and trying to really appeal to SIA and that they said, Hey, like we can't have this anymore. And now that, okay, SIA, if you want to do it, we'll let it be a fan vote, but you don't get the pick. Oh, I, I, I kind of don't think so. I think like what's more, what sounds more likely to me is that like SIA found the cast

[00:55:57] of 46 to be relatively repulsive and just decided not to give them any money. Um, you don't even like Tiffany SIA? Come on. You know, I, I think that probably she just wasn't a, wasn't a fan of the season to give them, you know, the thing is too, it's like sometimes I feel like, maybe survivor, like dips beneath its station a little bit. Like you guys are the best in the business and you've been doing this forever and you're truly at the top of your game.

[00:56:25] And there's no reason for like, to lack of a better word, prostitute yourself to Zach Brown. Like there's just, there's no reason to like be dogging after these celebrities and like Billie Eilish, we have to say Billie Eilish's name every time. And then she goes on a podcast and is like rolling her eyes, you know, like rolling her eyes, talking about to the show. Oh, that survivor. I think I wrote something for them. I wrote something for them. I was like, are you kidding? Why are we like, it's one thing, you know, I'm, I'm really a team player, even though

[00:56:54] I criticize the show sometimes I ride or die. Like, like I'm a good soldier. And so if it's one thing to have these celebrities on, if it's like, it's the way to the future, but if, you know, why should we be so beholden to what some like musician in LA thinks about, about the program? And unfortunately the show really kind of wants to be thought well by these people. And so I just can't imagine a situation where they're going to see it saying, see how we love you about like, you know, get out of here. I just don't think so. Yeah. Well, at least Mr.

[00:57:24] Beast ponied up a million dollars to like put into the fund for survivor. Oh yeah. I owe an apology to Mr. Beast. Like, you know, me, Mr. Negative. I was like, this is ridiculous. Like this guy from YouTube. I thought he was such a mild mannered young man. He clearly had so much respect for the show. He didn't want it to be about him. You know, I was very pleased by, uh, I was, I enjoyed the Mr. Beast cameo, but, but the point is, it's like from the show's perspective, like why are

[00:57:51] you bringing on your competition and being like, look at this guy, isn't he awesome? You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. I do think that, uh, there was like some, some shared DNA in terms of like, uh, that Mr. Beast has some inspiration from survivor and wanted to be there. And I think that at the point where Mr. Beast is like, Hey, I'd like to give a million dollars to the winner. Like I kind of get that a little bit more than seeing like what Zach Brown or Billy Eilish brings to the table.

[00:58:20] I, I do agree. And I think that like Mr. Beast, you know, coming on does make kind of like more like sense than the other two, for instance. And like, you know, promoting Zach Brown's album. But I, I will say the fact, the very fact that Mr. Beast could come on this show is like a sign of like maybe the priorities of the, of the producers and why like, you know, they probably weren't discouraging CF from giving money. Like to me, it's, it's unimaginable to me.

[00:58:46] Like it was as if the AE, AEW, like the, the rival wrestling thing brought out Vince McMahon. It was like, how cool is Vince guys? You know, like that's, this is crazy. Yeah. I'm trying to think if that's necessarily the, the, the same thing. Um, like, I mean, like, I feel like that in, in that scenario, I feel like that survivor

[00:59:08] is like the WWE and maybe there's like some new, like upstart wrestling, uh, like federation that is really like online has really taken over and they bring on somebody from that. I'll bet you the beast games gets more viewers than survivor. I don't know about that. Uh, I mean, certainly on YouTube.

[00:59:31] Uh, I'm not sure about the, um, the viewership success on Amazon prime for a beast games compared to survivor on network television. Yeah, that, I guess that is fair and it's different metrics, but I'm just saying it, it kind of, it kind of, you know, surprised me a little bit. And also Jeff was so cagey about acknowledging the success of Australian survivor. Yeah. It has been for years. Like he clearly sees Australian survivors like a rival program, which is right. It is.

[01:00:00] Um, so I was just, you know, the similar leniency given to Mr. Beast kind of, kind of surprised me. Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Riz God and Rizzo as sort of the personification of Gen Z and sort of like, I think he's really like, there have been other survivor contestants, uh, that have been so even younger than Rizzo, but I think that he's really been, you know,

[01:00:29] uh, I'm trying to think of the right word, but, but I really feel like that he is, uh, survivor's answer to this is the next generation of survivor viewers and players. Yeah, totally. I mean, like Riz God, he's, he's older than you think Riz God's older than me, you know, which, which, which kind of throws me, you know, no, no disrespect to the Lord, but, but,

[01:00:53] um, I, I, I do think that, that, uh, the show has kind of seen itself for a long time as catering, um, to like specifically kind of like young, slightly more introspective, you know, men. It's like, they, they kind of see this as like their demographic among Gen Z, like very online people. Uh, you know, it's part of the effort that has been gone into like curating influencers for instance.

[01:01:19] And like Rizzo really comes from and exemplifies that, that ethos. Um, I think they see Rizzo as like the first potential, like really young contestant who might become like a personality draw to the show in and of himself. Um, and I think also there is a kind of like, I don't know, like boomer distance where it's like, you know, six, seven, what does all this stuff mean? You know? And so they can't really, they're, they're kind of like when they see it, they're kind of, they can't really interpret it.

[01:01:48] You know, it's like an alien language. So they're kind of like, okay, Rizzo, like get out and do the song and dance. We don't really know what's, what's going on. Um, so I think, I think that is a part of, of the kind of like. About that. Yeah. Do you feel like that the inclusion of Riz God then sort of makes people who are of a certain age, maybe my peers and people who are older feel like that they're a little bit more with it because, uh, they are now familiar with a Riz God.

[01:02:17] You know, it could be, it could be. I mean, I guess there is a question of like, is the show trying to get that all our audience or are they appealing to like the, you know, much coveted 18 to 49 demographic? Uh, so I think, I think that is a thought, but then there could be a situation where it's like, there's been such a theme of parenthood on this season and it's like, you know, everyone's a parent and Riz God is the, is the, is the son, you know, uh, kind of explicitly and implicitly.

[01:02:44] And so maybe there is a kind of connection to like, there's so much effort put into like inspiring the kids, um, in the kind of narrative of the season that Riz God maybe is like the first instance of like, well, here's our kind of nod to the parents. Like we know what you're going through. We know the, the characters that, you know, Twitter infused characters that you're dealing with in your household. Yeah. Um, so I think, I think that's really an astute observation, Rob. I've been talking a lot about the people that watch Survivor and, you know, the show

[01:03:11] has this 26 year history and, you know, I've gotten to, you know, meet with so many of the fans in these last couple of weeks from being out on the road. And I feel like like a real consistent story that I hear. Jeff talks a lot about how Survivor, they make it for families, but the type that the family that I hear about a lot is the person who was in their twenties or thirties who discovered Survivor in the year 2000, maybe even the person in their forties.

[01:03:39] And they became a fan of Survivor way back when, and over the course of 26 years, Survivor was always on in the house. And it was the parents show that at some point the, the children picked up and now they have gone on to become these millennials who are adults who have just had Survivor sort of around them for their entire life. And some of them now have their children that they're showing, uh, Survivor too.

[01:04:08] And so I feel like that that's been one of the more common stories that I, that I hear from people who, you know, Hey, when I first started watching Survivor when I was 10 or 12 and now I'm 30, but it's me and my parents talk about it. Hmm. Yeah, I totally can see that. I mean, it's some of like, you know, some of my journey, like, you know, growing up and like watching it young and kind of like being inspired. Do you have a parent that was a Survivor fan? No, my brother and I watched it growing up though.

[01:04:38] Um, it was like, you know, kind of a tough, tough period in my childhood actually. And, uh, so it was kind of like, uh, the, the, the appeal to me was like the notion that there was this like, and it was a very childlike appeal, but like the notion that there is this, this adventure out there where you can like prove yourself and, and, and triumph through like the hardest situation and, and win, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's, it's kind of like fantasy world of like, you know, myth and legend and, and like Robinson Crusoe and all of that.

[01:05:08] I think, I think there is a kind of, they've, they've, they've probably accurately recognized there is a kind of like intuitive, like child appeal to that, to that program. Um, you know, the, with the, with the, I'm not sure really how to like parse or interpret the kind of like millennial genealogy of like, it's in the family and it's passed down. Um, because that might almost be like an assurance that like, okay, we can stop, like, we can stop catering to all this family shit. Like, you know, we've got our, like our gentry viewership. That's just going to like patrilineally go through the generations.

[01:05:37] We can do whatever we want, you know, that might, they might be able to draw the opposite message from that. But, but yeah. Yeah. I do think that when they talk about the show being for families, uh, there are stories of optimism and hope. And I do think that Ceri's story that is interspliced all throughout her 20 some odd years of history, but there are a lot of things that come up on survivor that I don't know necessarily are, uh, for families, uh, that we don't always, uh, talk about either.

[01:06:05] But so for Rizzo, uh, what do you think his outcome ends up being on this season? You know, uh, I don't think Rizzo is going to, going to win the season. Um, you know, I'll just start by saying that, um, being a really young player and I know Rizzo is like 26. So in theory, he's actually entering like the perfect time, that perfect block to play survivor. Um, but, but in, in point of fact, he comes off really young.

[01:06:31] I mean, he comes off as though he's like a college freshman, I would say, um, being a young player is hard on survivor because you really have to work to be respected. If Xander had been 30 rather than 20 or whenever, however old he was, I mean, he, he gets a different level of respect from people like Evie and Tiffany who see him as a kid. Um, and so Rizzo was kind of in a tough situation because his game is to be kind of like smarmy and talkative and, and, you know, jokey, but in doing so you're destroying your credibility

[01:07:00] and respect in front of the jury. So it's kind of like I'm setting up to similar to Sri. Maybe I'm setting myself to play a really good long running game that can't win. Um, as a younger player, you know, I got to experience kind of what you're working against when you are the youngest person on the season. Um, when people might have a tendency to see you as immature because you are immature. Um, and, and the kind of conclusion that I took away is that you have to be aggressive. Like if you're a younger player, like you, you have to be like very forceful and aggressive,

[01:07:30] even at the kind of consequence of seeming immature. Um, and credits of Will Wall. I mean, Will Wall realized this at 18, you know, Will Wall was out there and he was just the kid. And then he really came into the mid merge and he said, I'm not going to win the game. Nobody respects me. I have to make aggressive moves, even if they're like strategically suboptimal to earn respect, you know, and, and major props to, to, to, to, to will for that. He invented the survivor resume. We talk about it in the book. Really interesting guy.

[01:07:58] And actually on YouTube, you can go find, he went and played like survivor Ohio state, uh, after being on the season. Uh, and he was like a total dominant, um, presence on the, on the show. And I thought like, you know, Will, Will Wall is maybe somebody who, you know, as people talk about Julia Sokolowski is like kind of like before her time. Uh, but Will Wall maybe deserves some credit. But anyways, the, the, the thrust of bringing this up is that Rizzo is so like, is, is focused

[01:08:25] on like performing, but it's kind of performing this like Gen Z persona to the audience. And even some of the other castaways instead of like the kind of performative aggressivity that like might force you to be, take it seriously. Like I was at a bar in Chicago. I'm going to law school, Rob. I'm going to U Chicago. Uh, by the way. And I was at a visiting campus and I was at a bar in Chicago and there were all these like 17 year olds and they were like, you know, in the bar, of course, you know, fake IDs.

[01:08:54] Uh, but they were really young. And I was like, these kids are ridiculous. But then the kids started getting violent and they started being like aggressive and my whole attitude changed. And I was like, they were like pushing around. They were like, you know, being verbally, you know, not nice to people, including me. And I thought to myself like, wow, you know, I was just treating them as kids and suddenly they got aggressive. And these are like full grown adults who have, you know, earned forcibly my respect. And so when you're a young survivor player, you've got to, you've got to get violent, you know, at the bar, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to compel that respect.

[01:09:24] I read that less and less young people are at the bars. You know? Yeah, I, I, that's true. It's true. I mean, it's, it's like, uh, you know, Rob, it's, it's the, it's the, it's the marijuana, you know, that's, it's, uh, I mean, why, why go to the bar and get drunk when you can just be, you can just be stoned. It's a lot easier. It's cheaper. Um, I don't partake, but, but, you know, I think that there, that's probably something, uh, something, some part of breaking news. You know, Steven and I were debating on the know-it-alls about, uh, the, the game,

[01:09:54] that Rizzo is playing and, you know, whether or not he should be getting more credit from the jury and, uh, by proxy, the edit, what do you make of the, the game that he's played so far? And do you feel like that, uh, is he not getting enough credit for this game in season 50? Uh, well, the thing about is that, and I have, I actually have a lot of thoughts about

[01:10:18] like kind of styles of surmocker gameplay, but, but Rizzo is like one of the better incarnations of, of the floater style, new era gameplay, right? He has great instincts for when to hop aboard and when to jump ship. Uh, and he seems like he's always kind of making, you know, the right moves, especially in season 50 at the right time, you know, like when to hop with coach and, you know, how to keep all the doors open, um, and how to kind of like circulate information without it, like getting out to everyone.

[01:10:46] Like Rizzo seems to have been like really the only person except maybe Sari on this season who's been able to like tell secrets, uh, and not get punished for it. And I think that, you know, that's, that's striking. I mean, that's not, you know, something to dismiss out of hand. The trouble is, is that if you're playing this kind of floater new era thing, all of the, the responsibility and credit for moves is diffused to the group. And so when you get to the end of the game, it really comes down to social charisma and social aura, how people think of you versus a resume.

[01:11:14] And so how people think of Rizzo is he's a kid. And so if Rizzo was a kind of imposing charismatic 30 something guy, like if Rizzo for instance was Caleb from season 45 or Kyle, uh, he would get, he would get the respect for the game because this kind of floater game is ultimately an investment in myself and my kind of charisma and personality. But because Rizzo is a younger guy who needs to earn that respect, uh, he's playing in such

[01:11:41] a kind of like diffused and subtle and, and kind of like vibey way that he's just never going to get it. Yeah. His two seasons in a row, he has, uh, had the idol and like sort of dangles it. I'm going to play it tonight. I'm going to play it tonight. Doesn't play the idol tonight. Do you feel like now while he ends up having, as our friend, uh, Shannon Gus, who has calls

[01:12:08] it implicit immunity of that? Well, we're not going to vote for him because he's going to play his idol. And then he doesn't play his idol. He keeps like, uh, like, Hey, you know, uh, you want this, you want this. And he pulls it away at the last second. And it does seem to be the type of thing that annoys people. Oh yeah. I completely agree. Um, you know, I, I, I mentioned last, you know, just a minute ago that I've been thinking about like styles of playing survivor.

[01:12:37] And one of my kind of theses of late is that survivor is gameplay adopts the political style or the style of American politics. Okay. When the season is air. Um, and, and there's a kind of lot to, you know, you can untangle that, but like the relatively basic, um, conclusion is that tribal council is like the place to represent power, you know? And so you, you kind of accrue standing in front of the jury in front of your peers by like representing strength in tribal council.

[01:13:06] So you can't let yourself get interrupted. You have to have the best answers, things like that. Those are ways to accrue power. But one thing that's fatal is this kind of like give and take, like, you know, I could be powerful, but, but I'm not, you know? And so it's when you go to a tribal and you have an advantage and you bait again and again that I'm going to use it. And I don't, it, it, it diminishes yourself because people don't take you seriously. Number one, oh, he's not a threat because like he keeps getting away with like flaunting this thing, um, and not getting voted out.

[01:13:34] So there's probably a reason for that. You know, he's just not a big enough target. He's not, he's not, he's not impressive enough for him to have to use it. But then the second thing is it makes you seem ineffectual. Oh, this is somebody who can't execute. This is somebody who's all talk. And so this kind of like Tony inspired, you know, acrobatic maneuver with the advantage is actually like politically devastating because it's basically showing that you're full of shit and all credit to Rick for, for immediately realizing that this kind of like performance was extremely costly in his position of the game.

[01:14:05] You know, he does the performance. He realizes actually like, oh, I've totally hampered my social position. And he, you know, he says, this was a mistake. This was fake. Uh, my bad. Rizzo hasn't kind of come to that realization. I think, I think, uh, if you wanted a precursor, look at Xander at 41, you know, Xander had so much kind of like hoopla about the idol, but, but that young guy's inability to actually demonstrate power to show that, you know, he can use the idol was, it was, I think a big part in like symbolically undercutting him as being ineffectual in front of the jury.

[01:14:34] It seems like that the jury seems to recognize more like a Marianne in Survivor 42 of, hey, I had an idol the whole time. You didn't know about it. And I never had to take it out as opposed to the antithesis of that, which is Rizzo, which is I have an idol. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You can't get me. I'm going to play it tonight. Psych. I'm not going to play it tonight. Uh, that people seem to get annoyed with that, even though it's very effective in getting him further in the game.

[01:15:05] Yeah, totally. I mean, like if information is currency, then like, you know, as Cerise said, then if I'm spouting the same bit of information over and over, I'm like, you know, rubbing my money in your face every day. You know, I'm, it's, uh, it, it seems to aggravate. All right, Drew, I have so many questions for you here from the listener, but do you, would you prefer answers from the audience that you could give the questions? Uh, we can do it. I mean, I tend to like yammer on for a few minutes.

[01:15:35] So the syntax is going to get complicated, but, uh, if, if one comes up, we'll see if we can do that. Okay. All right. But, but, all right. J.Cole Kane wants to write what literary figures are Sari and Devin's most like? Actually, you know, what's funny is I was just thinking of this about Ozzy, this question, uh, because Ozzy to me is like, it's like this kind of like Greek hero, you know, like tragic, like Greek figure.

[01:16:01] Um, with Sari and Devin's though, that's tough. I mean, I don't know. I mean, Rob, do you got any ideas? I'm trying to, I mean, I could maybe give you TV characters, uh, that they're like, but I'm not sure about literary figures. I'm not that culture. No, no, no. Devin's is like, Devin's is like the young upstart, the showman, you know, Devin's is

[01:16:27] like, uh, um, Devin's is like a Jay Gatsby. I think, you know, kind of like lots of flash, emotional, uh, emotional undercore, you know, maybe, uh, destined for an unfortunate end in the, in the game. Um, that I feel like everyone could see coming. Um, Sari though, Sari is like cunning, tough matriarch.

[01:16:54] Um, I don't know, man, I gotta get, you gotta get back to me on this. So Jake, I let you down. We'll come back to it. Okay. All right. Um, how about, um, uh, Cameron says, if Tiffany wins immunity at five, who will be in jeopardy of going home? That's good. Okay.

[01:17:19] Well, so, um, Jonathan, Joe, if Tiffany wins immunity, uh, you gotta feel like, like Aubrey is toast. Um, because everyone who wants to go to the end with Jonathan and Joe and Rizzo will play his idol and Tiffany's immune. Yeah. You really, you don't think so? Everybody wants to go to the end with Jonathan. I kind of do. I think Joe and Rizzo are the most likely jury goats. That's interesting.

[01:17:48] So I, I just think that especially with Sari targeting Aubrey, you know, being targeted always can kind of like raise your debt level a little bit, especially by somebody good. I think that they probably see Aubrey as some, as an X factor who has the old, uh, old era appeal to the jury. Um, and I think they probably see Jonathan as, as somebody who might split votes with Joe and who isn't super appreciated. Um, but I don't know.

[01:18:15] I mean, the thing is, is that survivor is like, you know, you can think of survivor a little bit like class warfare when you get to towards the end of the game and you've got, you've got the elites and you've got the proles. Right. Right. And so the proletariat, you know, the working, the working class people, you know, they, they, they're waiting for their number to come up, you know, struggling for a break. You know, these are kind of like the goats and they don't have much, much equity in the game. And they're just trying to like, kind of trying to like slip by to the end, but they also,

[01:18:44] they also have a natural class consciousness because they know that are the only people each other can be. So they need to stick together. Right. So they kind of have a natural solidarity. And then you've got the winners, you know, the people who could win the jury vote and who are the, who are the threats. The lions and the hyenas. Yeah. The lions and the hyenas. That's, I should have just started like that. But, but then the lions, the thing about the lions is that they also are a class and they need to defend themselves from the hyenas.

[01:19:11] However, they have no incentive to have solidarity, right? They have no incentive to work together. Ideally, they can eliminate each other and then just be assimilated with the hyenas and point of fact that can never happen. So the most difficult move to do in survivor period full stop is to get the threats to band together to kill off the hyenas. You know, it's really hard. It almost never occurs. And I think that like any, any scenario in five where the, the kind of, you know, win

[01:19:40] equity people, Tiffany, maybe Aubrey, you know, or Jonathan get together to kill a hyena like Joe. It just, that's not going to happen. It's just, it's so interesting to tie that into this whole conversation that we've been talking about going back to the beginning where we talk about like the atom of it all, where it's like the winning combination for a lion is to get to the end with two hyenas.

[01:20:04] That's sort of, and the winning combination for the hyenas is, Hey, let's hyenas, let's band together and let's take out all of the lions. And I think that that's the scenario that the show really doesn't care for. I think that they would, they would love a world where it's like, Hey, all lions, let's go to the end and let's, and let's, and you would think that in an all-star season you would end up with,

[01:20:31] okay, well, no matter what happens, lions are going to get to the end, but invariably you end up with these all-star seasons where for the most part, maybe outside of winners at war, you end up with a mostly hyena end game. Yeah, totally. And, and, you know, a lot of the all-stars, like just because somebody who's brought back as an all-star doesn't mean they're a great survivor player, you know, it is what it is. And sometimes they get kind of preferential edits that are revealed when they return.

[01:20:59] Um, but, but maybe the kind of like, you know, the coach, like let's have the strong stick together. Or I think Reba really was a great example of this. This was like very explicitly our mentality, um, for a lot of the game where it's like the right way to play if you're a lion is probably to like, to compromise with the other lions for as long as possible, you know, to take as many goats off the, off the board. Um, and, and, and it's just, it requires like such an incredible amount of like foresight

[01:21:29] and trust. I mean, you really have to like build up those relationships and, you know, it's just probably not a possibility. Um, you know, really from final seven to final five. Yeah. And this, in this season. Easier said than done for the lions to work together. Cause you have to have some agreement with like, okay, well this person's a nothing. Like let's, let's vote them out. Like, sure. Why not? Um, and the, but why, you know, what, what, why am I wasting a vote here on this person? Tiffany. I mean, Tiffany tried her best.

[01:21:56] Tiffany's like Rizzo is going to steal a jury seat or a final three seat. I don't know why you wouldn't then go make that argument. Like say for, for Joe, who you don't seem to really care for. I mean, that would seem to be like the next logical conclusion. Um, but, but yeah. Well, I think it was Rizzo's idol that was like, okay, well he's going to, we're not going to vote him out tonight. And then tomorrow he's going to play his idol. So he's really getting ahead two spots where Joe, we still could vote him out tomorrow if we want to. Yeah, I know.

[01:22:25] But the thing is, it's like if Rizzo was going to take up a seat and as a zero vote finalist, that's kind of the calculus. Well, Joe has de facto immunity. Like, you know, like under what scenario does Joe not make the final three? So I feel like, you know, it doesn't actually really matter if you kill Rizzo versus kill Joe. If you're just worried about a seat, take it up. You know? Yeah. He's got the idol. Who cares? Let's just take the other one. How did you feel about your season 45 representation on season 50, Dee and Emily?

[01:22:55] Yeah, I mean, I thought it was good. Both made fairly decently far in the game, which, you know, we really appreciated. I thought Dee showcased, you know, really what is like her defining strength of her game, which is that she has phenomenal intuition. She can get a really quick social read on people and she can make like, you know, bonds that hard really quick and really fast. So that was, that was the, that was the perk, you know, of her.

[01:23:24] And then Emily was a lot of fun. I thought, I thought Emily maybe was like overcompensating a little bit for like feeling that she lacked agency on 45. But, but nonetheless was, was memorable and fun. And, you know, I was very happy to see them both out there and do well. Yeah. I said to Emily that she was very down on herself about her exit in Survivor 45. It wasn't like a scenario, like where it was, okay, well, this is an easy vote. Everybody's voting for Emily tonight. It was actually the antithesis of that.

[01:23:54] It was that she ended up getting idled out on a ricochet. She's like, well, we could have split the votes. But I don't think that she went out very passively in season 45. I, I actually, I feel a lot of guilt about this, but like the, the basic gist to my like understanding and I used to have to ask her is that like Emily thought that like Austin and I like had her back, like pretty much unconditionally.

[01:24:21] And in reality, we had this like other family on the side. And I think that it was, I think, and I, you know, when I voted off, I was like, okay, I'm like done hanging out with you guys. Like I'm, I'm leaving. Like I'm, I don't need to like, we don't, we're not friends like Sia, which I don't feel the same way now, but that was how I felt at the time. I think that like, maybe she felt like she had put so much stock in us and like our relationship rather than playing her own game.

[01:24:47] And that going out and not having known about the idol was a consequence of that passivity. So that's kind of my like guilty conscious interpretation of it. You'll have to ask. Okay. All right. Chris Colton wants to know if you were in Rizzo's shoes facing a decision to tell Ozzy to play his idol or not, what would you have done? And do you think that Rizzo's decision will leave any additional fallout beyond Ceres ouster? Would you have told Ozzy to play his idol? Oh yeah. 100%.

[01:25:15] I think playing, I think, um, I think that if you tell Ozzy to play the idol, you've got to move, right? Which is what you desperately need. Uh, and a move that you get very little, you know, blowback from, um, potentially if, if, if done right. Uh, I think that Ozzy is now like, like an uber, uber threat and you're coming into the final seven with Ozzy, Sari and Rick on the board. And so you can just, uh, ding, ding, ding one, you know, all the threats.

[01:25:43] And then suddenly you're in a final three with Joe, Jonathan and you, and you've just made this, this like great under the radar move as a member of the majority Alliance. I mean, that to me seems pretty, that's a pretty nice recipe. Nice recipe for Rizzo. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it'll be interesting to find out from Rizzo, how loyal was he to the Sari and Ozzy Alliance? Was he all along?

[01:26:11] Because I kind of feel like that he's so perceptive. I have to think he would imagine I'm not getting any votes going to the end with Sari and Ozzy. And I feel like that his story has always been one of, Hey, I'm going to be a legend. I'm not, he didn't want to go and be a chump zero vote finalist with Ozzy and Sari. Yeah. I feel like his relationship really was much more with Sari than the Nazi.

[01:26:39] And I feel like part of the reason why he didn't help Ozzy out was because it was probably pretty frustrating to have learned that he wasn't Sari's number one, you know, like if Ozzy is like, Oh, I'm actually the number one. Like you're just the ride of the coattails. I thought I was like Sari's bestie, you know, I'd be pretty upset. I'd be pretty shocked. I mean, I might like prematurely burn the bridges or burn the boats. But then the other thing is he was pretty loyal in 49. Wasn't he? He was very loyal to his people.

[01:27:05] I mean, yeah, you had said earlier that he played kind of a middle game in survivor 49. He really was very much in with his people. And, uh, because of Savannah winning, uh, the immunity necklace and him dangling the idol really that there was no way that people were able to ever successfully try to split the votes against them and flush his idol. So he really was, uh, kind of 10 toes down with his people more so that he was playing the middle.

[01:27:33] I was, I guess I was thinking of the current, the current season then. And he has played a very different game here. The one consistent thing has been that his unwillingness to play the idol. Yeah. Um, very unfortunate. Capital is made to be spent, you know, you gotta, you gotta expect. Yep. Okay. This is from Scott Rash who says, change it up for Drew. The answer, this survivor contestants biggest obstacle is overcoming their own legend.

[01:28:05] Sari, you know, like if Sari was a first time player, she could, she could win easily. You know, it's the, it's the, it's the, this kind of like the reputation for have like fallen so short that totally, you know, totally screws her every opportunity. I mean, that, that's just gotta be the right answer here. I really think that Sari, if she ever plays again, needs to come back with a bad attitude. Like she needs to come back and just be like roasting people and being mean. It's like, boy, Sari's kind of mean. Like, uh, I don't know. Like, uh, she seemed nicer on TV.

[01:28:35] She's kind of mean to us. I don't think any people are going to vote for her. I would love to see her just like hit the gym super hard, you know, like just be like a physical threat. And then the most of the, most of the game you can be like, oh, I'm, I'm off, I'm off the couch and we're going to try our best and I'm going to break the hammock. And then just like final six, like elite, you know, Ironman athlete. That's, that's kind of why I think her best, uh, you know, one of the two ways.

[01:29:00] A lot of people are asking if you are watching pop culture jeopardy or would appear on pop culture jeopardy. I don't think I'd be very good at, at pop culture jeopardy. I, you know, when I went on my initial run and they were trying to like launch again, like I got an email about it. Um, and I didn't, I didn't like seize on that. Um, I'm like, I'm not actually that good at bar trivia. Uh, Rob, I'm like a crammer. Um, and I have an amazing, phenomenal short-term memory.

[01:29:29] Um, so I can basically sit down two weeks before I go on jeopardy and, and learn the, you know, the entirety of an encyclopedia. Yeah. Why are there three people on the pop culture jeopardy teams? Why don't we go from one person? I get if you want to do two, but why three? Is it, is that really to mimic the feeling of bar trivia? Maybe. I think also they kind of want to like get some of the like rapport of like the family feud panel. Do you know what I mean?

[01:29:58] Like, you know, Steve Harvey, you know, the game itself is not very compelling, but then you can go over to the family and they can like, you know, interact and like chum it up. And, and so probably like three is like the half step to like maybe get some of that dynamic. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. Let me give you a question from, uh, this is from, uh, Chorozenek who says, uh, what is

[01:30:23] Drew's perspective on voting between a big visible game where moves are clear? Uh, and they say Jonathan or an under the radar game that's effective, but needs more explaining at final tribal council. Uh, I'm pretty much, and I'm pretty much in theory. I mean, obviously like with Austin, you know, I felt the way to social bond that, that would have, it would have been immoral not to have voted for him. Um, but if I didn't have that kind of relationship. That's why Charlie likes you so much.

[01:30:54] Maybe. I didn't know that. We've never, we've never met. So I'm glad to hear I got a fan. You're this kind of guy. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am kind of like, uh, you know, uh, a loyal gameplay guy. Um, but, uh, I'm just voting for the big moves every time. Oh, so you would vote for resume over a story. Yeah, probably. Interesting. Um, yeah, that's the gameplay I want to encourage. You know, that's what I want to represent me. That's what I vote for. Yeah.

[01:31:23] Steven and I were talking about on the know-it-alls that, uh, he felt like that, uh, Aubrey, and her contributions to the season. Uh, he, he felt like it's a little bit of a, a, and I don't want to put too many words in his mouth, but a little bit of a by-product of Aubrey edit and axing. What do you think about that? Oh, yeah. I mean, like, this is like, we were on fraud watch here. You know, I don't, I don't dislike Aubrey. Uh, she's a very talented player.

[01:31:50] She's a lot better of a player than I am, but this game is no different than any of the, uh, three previous times that she's played. I mean, we've had the same exact problems and she played the same, same game she got on game changers. And because, you know, she didn't make final three or whatever, whatever reasons she, I mean, she got four confessionals the whole season, you know, it's like the same kind of like, I'm on the outs and I'm aloof. And then I kind of, I'm going to be like intentionally aloof because I'm unhappy and things are just going to spiral out of control. Uh, I think that, I think that Steven's spot on.

[01:32:19] She had a confessional today where she, you know, I even wrote it down. Let me, let me, uh, hold on. I wrote it down in my notes here. Um, oh, she was like the start of the episode. She was like, it's go time now. And I was like, go time. It's day 23. Like, like go time. Like you've got maybe 48 hours left. You know, like, what are you talking about? It's go time. Well, I compared Aubrey to a Marianne where it's like, is this not the,

[01:32:44] uh, stereotypical new era game where that you are sort of like on the outs and then nobody's looking at you and there's a bunch of big threats and they all pick themselves out and you take out the last of the big threats and you stand there at the end of the game and you tell your story about how you were the underdog who got hot at the right time. Like this is the 26 day game. Yeah, no, I mean, certainly there is a, there is a formula for it and I'm not like,

[01:33:09] you know, not disparaging her as a, as a, as a player, you know, to, you know, she can obviously do it and do it really well. And we'll, you know, we'll see if she does. Um, and maybe, maybe get getting out. Ozzy was, was, is going to be that move in the edit. But, but the, the point is that the thing about Marianne, that kind of gameplay is that like, you're really just treading water for a long, long time, you know? Like, uh, you know, if you play this amazing game, you're really, I mean, it was at the last 1% of the game and the rest of it. I mean, you were getting, you were sacking potatoes. So. Okay.

[01:33:39] This is another theory I want to try out on you because I referred to all of the twists in this game as a squid gamification of survivor, but we bring back our biggest cast ever for survivor 24 players. It's not necessarily 465 or whatever they had on the squid game, but sometimes

[01:34:04] when you have a big giant cast and you have all sorts of things that ultimately you need to do to thin the herd, I do feel like that there is like a leveling out of the playing field where sometimes you could end up in a scenario where even a baby could be the winner. Just somebody who just didn't do anything and bother anybody. And somehow all of the people are taking each other out. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom.

[01:34:33] Who's left? Maybe even just a baby could win a squid game. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's not, not much of a, you know, meritocratic, meritocratic game plan. I will say, I actually, I know people in the next season of squid game, which hasn't aired yet. And I think that your analogy will age well. But yeah, I mean, we're not selecting for the best players and the best gameplay.

[01:34:59] And interestingly, I think the show really intentionally made kind of tweaks for a period of time to like try and select for better players. And the tweaks consistently had like the opposite effect. Like the final four fire making just meant now that people got eliminated, you know, beforehand. And so now they've kind of taken the opposite approach where it's like, well, we can't reliably figure out how to select for the best players. Let's just do like, you know, this is an experiment. Let's just do as much as we can. Let's just do everything possible.

[01:35:25] And, you know, the results probably have not been to their, to their like. You went on a journey in season 45. What's your current feeling on the state of journeys in Survivor? Should players go on journeys? They've gotten, say again. Should players go on a journey? They've gotten too hard. I mean, like on my season, I was like 100% doing it because, you know, again, this was back in the day when the journey was like a cakewalk.

[01:35:52] You know, they wanted you to have an advantage and the journey was this kind of like little meeting you had to sit through to, to obtain it. Time share pitch. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, that's a, that's a great metaphor, Rob. We got to, that's, that's good. Got to, got to stay in practice for your, for your next TV appearance. But yeah, exactly. It's a time share pitch. And now, however, the journeys have to be super hard. And moreover, with all of these kind of like split tribals that can, that can occur at any point in the game, you really need to hang on to your vote.

[01:36:22] And it's probably not worth losing that vote for anything short of an idol. And you're never going to get an idol on a journey. So, or at least maybe not that I can remember. Yeah, an extra vote. And, and I think that the cost associated with it as maybe this worked out for Savannah is like the, oh, but what does she have? And sometimes they, what they think you have is better than what you actually have. Oh yeah. I mean, you, you should probably assume that if somebody went on a journey, they came back with like a crock of shit.

[01:36:47] Like they came back with like, you know, you know, like I, I, I, I used, uh, I don't know, some, something used and worthless. Um, and then the other thing is that like, let's say I do get the extra vote. Losing a vote is so much worse than like getting a second one, you know? So it's not, it's not an equivalent. I mean, you really have a lot to lose. There were not a lot of journeys in Survivor 50. I think there was just the one in the three hour premiere where Savannah and Colby and Mike White went on. It was a nothing burger for Mike White.

[01:37:16] Savannah ended up getting a bigger target on her back because what if she has something? Colby ended up losing because he had no vote. Uh, and then Christian went on a journey and then ultimately got the Jimmy Fallon disadvantage. So I would say for Survivor 50 as a whole, the journey was a, uh, major, major negative for anybody that got like the best was Mike White who just like was told, okay, go home.

[01:37:41] I think it makes sense to go on journeys if you're in the majority purely because you want to have that information and you want to like stop the opposition from like obtaining something. Uh, and I think that that calculus makes considerably more sense during the pre-merge or fairly early on in the game. I think that is this really the singular argument for going on the journey right now. Um, except of course, if you have like nothing to lose, in which case like, you know, fine. Yeah. Nick Fishman has a great question.

[01:38:07] Um, analyze the final five who has helped or hurt most with the unknown final four round status. Who wants fire and who wants a vote? And I think that this is interesting that the players don't know. I kind of feel like that maybe we should have told people at the start of the game what the rules were as opposed to going into the final four. You don't know if there's going to be a vote or the final four fire making makes it harder for everybody to plan.

[01:38:36] But is there anybody in this group that you feel like is particularly helped or hurt by either scenario? Well, I don't know. It's because the thing is, is like if I'm out there, I'm planning for the final four fire making no matter what. Right. Like, so you're planning for the fire making to have like that roster of people. And so then the only person who could be, um, I got somebody.

[01:39:06] Yeah, I don't know if you're. Oh, yeah. I think Tiffany is most helped by there being a final four fire making. I think if you're the underdog here, the person that nobody wants you to get to the end. I think that having the final four fire making, I think really does help you. I think it gives you a little bit more power also as the underdog where Tiffany could win the final four immunity challenge. Say, hey, I'm taking out Jonathan tonight. Put me in the fire.

[01:39:35] She has a lot more options as opposed to if she wins the if she wins immunity. I guess she's safe no matter what she gets to. She gets to the final three, but it gives her another out here. If she doesn't win, if Jonathan wins the final four immunity challenge and one says, okay, well, Tiffany, you're making fire tonight. She still has a chance to get to the end. So I think it helps whoever the underdog is. Yeah, I agree. And an underdog and especially an underdog that like might not be particularly good at fire.

[01:40:04] And if we're rooting for the underdogs, we're saying audience, we hope you didn't vote for a vote. We hope you voted for fire. Yeah, yes, we are. We're part of the problem. The thing is, if the game state of Survivor is like, yeah, I guess this is to their point. If you're goat maxing at the end of the game, if the goat class, the hyena class has defeated the lions, then we have to rig the election system. We need no more votes.

[01:40:32] We need emergency powers to the lions. But I think that the idea of why the final four fire making is there, I think when it started of like, how do we save David Wright? I think that Survivor put this in because they were lion maxing. And I think that when it came along where Ben ends up being like, I think that Ben probably from Survivor production was like, hey, he's literally our hero in this story.

[01:40:59] How do we have a situation that's going to save Ben, give him the chance to make the fire? So I think that the idea of the final four fire making was lion maxing, not hyena maxing. Here in this spot, I guess that, I mean, in an all hyena final five, I think that someone must rise to become the lion. And I think that's Tiffany. Yeah, I think so too.

[01:41:26] So the final four fire making challenge, what a mouthful, is still indeed lion maxing. It was just, it's just like a, it's like a, maybe a puma, you know, it's not quite a lion, you know, it's a, it's a one down on the, on the totem pole. But yeah. Yeah. So I think that the vote favors, certainly Joe and Rizzo, who I think would like probably be safe in that scenario. And I think it really hurts.

[01:41:55] Tiffany, Aubrey, I think it just really is a TBD if she's in the inner circle or not. Yeah. The thing is, is like, you got to feel that like Aubrey's making fire pretty much, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Like, like maybe you got to feel like she's making fire unless both somehow by some miracle Tiff and Aubrey both. Yeah. Like it's clear Tiffany is five out of five right now in the pecking order. Yeah.

[01:42:25] Tiffany is the ultimate, is the underdog here. But in the four, it's unclear who the three is. I kind of get the feeling that maybe it's the three guys are the three. They're, they're hanging with the boys and Aubrey is, is four. And can Aubrey find a way to sneak into the three? Yeah. It's going to, it probably comes down to, comes down to fire. I mean, I think, I think she'll be in it.

[01:42:51] I think if, uh, I think if it's a, it's a vote at the final four, it's between Rizzo and Aubrey, probably. Um, with Joe and Jonathan kind of like having punched their ticket. Yep. And if, if Tiffany goes out at five, I do wonder what the scenario could be in terms of like who the fire making could be. Aubrey could be a fire making winner, especially if she's up against Rizzo. Oh yeah, I can see it.

[01:43:17] I think that like Jonathan is probably really incentivized to do fire making to make up for losing the last time, you know, as part of like rebrand, which is, he's so conscious of like trying to remessage himself. I think that's the kind of thing he would want to do. So I think Rizzo, uh, very wisely recognizing his strengths and weaknesses would prefer not to compete in the fire making challenge, you know? Uh, and I, and I think Aubrey has this kind of like, you know, like it is what it is attitude where like nothing is going to go right.

[01:43:45] And she's probably like anticipating competing in the challenge. I think that the final four challenge, which is also a vote. So we have two big votes, uh, still the, what the final four challenge is. I think it's going to be some motion. I think the other, the other ones that are up for the potential vote are like nothing. Some motion, I think has really been branded as the final four challenge. I think that's going to win. I kind of think Jonathan is too big to be good at some motion. Is that, is that offensive?

[01:44:13] I have the opposite take, which is that at the end of the next time on survivor challenge, your thing, the last clip is Jonathan screaming. Yes. Right. So what situation would cause Jonathan, a pretty well-tempered guy to scream? Yes. Maybe. Could he win final five immunity? Maybe, maybe, but, but you know, he's one immunities before. I think that Jonathan is winning the final one. Jonathan wins some motion. I think so. He did lose some motion.

[01:44:43] And I believe Romeo won it. I don't know who it was down between, but Riz God, I feel like is not going to be a good some motion guy. I think it's between Aubrey and Joe for some motion. Yeah. Joe really is like very level. I just did the Jonathan, the Jonathan yelling. Yes. Kind of throws me like that's such a big, that's such a big reaction. We're going to, you know, we're having an also. Oh, I, oh, you gotta, you gotta, you know, you have to read the edit on this kind of stuff. Um, I am preview maxing. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:45:13] I'm, uh, I'm logic minning and preview maxing. Well, how about this? Um, for, can I give you, uh, the finale episode title? Okay. Okay. Um, I believe the survivor episode title is reverse the curse. Interesting. Okay. Okay. So that to me means that the winner is somebody who lost in final travel.

[01:45:43] Yes. Right. It's got it. Yeah. Um, let me give you the names of the episodes for the finale and you tell me this is a fun game. Okay. Uh, this is the episode title relevant to the winner. I feel like it is more often than not. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, the, uh, season 49 is called. The fever dream. I'm not sure who said that. Okay. I didn't watch. Okay. Um, season 48, only one of you's can win.

[01:46:12] That's not really anything. Season 47 is the last stand. Not sure who said that. Um, season 46 is friends going to war. So actually, so not, not really that instructive. Actually, uh, season 45 finale is called living the survivor dream. Did D say that? Well, yeah, no, that one is revealing because it's, it's D's kind of big personal moment was like talking about the American dream. Okay. Yeah.

[01:46:41] Did D talk a lot about Zach Brown when you played survivor 45? No. Didn't come up. I mean, no, it didn't, it didn't come up. I mean, probably she's discovered Zach and his, you know, wonderful music, really life changing music, uh, in the interim, I think, you know, a couple of years have passed. Yeah. But we, we didn't really see if it was the kind of guy who might like Zach Brown, you know, see if it could be a Zach Brown fan. They should have, they should have, uh, I guess him for 50 season 44, uh, was absolute banger season. I don't think jam jam said that.

[01:47:11] That doesn't sound like jam jam. Not the jam jam. I know in love. Yeah. Well, no comment. Uh, I'm, I'm team Rob, you know, screw that guy. Season fuck that guy. Season 43 was snap some necks and cash some checks. I don't think Gabler said that. No, who was that? Yeah. That was probably like a Jesse ism. Okay. The point is, I guess they're not that revealing, but I'm wrong about this. Uh, season 39 finale is mama. Look at me now. That was a quote from Dean.

[01:47:41] So it's not necessarily a quote from the winner. Yeah. So maybe it could be somebody aspirationally like I'm going to reverse the curse, you know, but I don't know. That would my, you know, we'll see. Yeah. Okay. What'd you think of, uh, let me ask you this. The survivor puzzle last night, the word was inconceivable. What'd you think about that? Oh yeah. As the answer to the puzzle.

[01:48:08] Um, you know, I, I, I saw it immediately, but I think that like in theory, it's a good one because, um, a lot of very common letters. Um, so there's not really easy hooks for you to get. Um, I think that like the easiest way to like do it is obviously the B. So, you know, yeah. With, with all those, uh, very Latin letters, you know, that B kind of sticks out. And so I would probably like think a bull and then, uh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I was kind of, I was stunned by their performance. Yeah.

[01:48:38] Uh, so I, I think it needs to be a certain number of letters. And so they're sort of like, uh, locked in it's that these puzzles are not really survivor words. Um, I thought that that was sort of like, it gave me pause that the puzzle was inconceivable and then sorry, got voted out in that episode where going back to that there used to be, uh, you know, conspiracy theories about how the puzzle that, uh, that won the episode with the Varner and Zeke thing was metamorphosis.

[01:49:07] And that was part of like, that it was going to be Zeke's story in that episode. Okay. Um, cause that's not really a survivor word either. Um, but going back to in season 48, then the last time they did this arch puzzle, when, uh, Joe did the got fun betrally, um, the puzzle was unforgettable, but so, so not really a survivor word either, but I guess got fun betrally was unforgettable. I won this challenge, but I can't remember what the word was. Yes. I remember we were there.

[01:49:37] Yeah, I was there. Yeah. I forgot it was that episode. I was pretty close at that party. I had no idea what was going on. You were having the best time. Um, in season 46, they did this and Tiffany was part of it in season 46, but they did it as a tribe and the puzzle answer was persistence, which I think that that actually plays into a little bit of the doing the puzzle of you need to have persistence to win that challenge. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? 15 letters?

[01:50:05] Not a lot of good 15 letter words. I mean, you know, it's hard to even think of a 15 letter word, you know, I, I, you know, and they're all like technical, like, you know, legislatability. Okay. Like, you know, they're, they're really a paucity of options there. So I have some sympathy for the, for the puzzle creators. Here, let me give you some, here's some 15 letter words. Uh, do you like any of these? Um, acknowledgeable. I don't, I don't know. How about this psychoanalyzing?

[01:50:34] I, I, I like psychoanalysis. I think that our dear, you know, slate of contestants, it would be like the challenge when no one could do a Sudoku puzzle. I don't think anyone would get it, but, uh, yeah. Oh, accomplishments. That's a good one. That that's an option. That's possible. Yeah. I mean, it's a little, little white bread. Yeah. What about, uh, acclimation? Uh, I don't know. It's, it's, it's weak. It's weak. That's another one where I think they might struggle. Yeah. Yeah. Are we sure? Is it 15? Is it 15 or 14?

[01:51:03] How many letters? Let's see. Oh, it's 13. Oh, 13 letter. Okay. So that's a game. Game. That's a lot easier. All right. Some good 13 letter words. So what did they, what did they pick from? Uh, oh, entertainment. That would be good. Yeah. That could be good. Yeah. Technological, you know? Yeah. Embracing the future. Relationships. That's right there. Entrepreneurs, you know, orchestrating. Vote. Companies. Opportunities.

[01:51:35] Unprecedented. That's good. Unprecedented would be good. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, maybe they stuck out on 13 letter word. Okay. Um, well, you know, let's see. How about what happened to the quiz format immunity challenges? Bring them back. Says Steven Cass. I honestly kind of agree. I felt like the Cambodia quiz was so, was such a refreshing. The one that Steven won the reward?

[01:52:05] Yeah. I like that. When I think back to old seasons, that's like one of the few challenges I can remember. Yeah. Because it was so atmospheric and interesting. And I think that, I think the quiz challenges are fun. I think that really the con, the problem is that like everybody's, we're just sitting in Fiji, you know? Yeah. There's no new material. Well, I feel like that the challenges this season overall have just been kind of just same old, same old, where it's the biggest season ever. Season 50, we're bringing everybody back.

[01:52:31] And we've just been kind of just been rolling out like the regular standard new era challenges. Yeah. Totally. What are you going to do? I agree. I mean, like, actually, this is something I really loved about the tribe has spoken or the tribe and I have spoken. Excuse me. So sorry. This, this particular chapter, um, where is it? You know what chapter I'm talking about? About Cochran. Oh, the Oops All Cochran chapter. Yeah. Oops All Cochran.

[01:52:58] The show has like, has gone from like, this is like a realer than real, like, you know, survival situation to like, we're, you know, we're the most self-conscious television show on TV. Mm-hmm. Um, so I thought that was a great point, Rob, but, but yeah, the challenges have been totally like unremarkable. I, I don't know. I can't remember a single one. Yep. It's just basically, uh, a lot of just, we're just like, these are the challenges that we do and ready, set, stand still. I think that almost every single challenge in the post merge has been, you know, some, at

[01:53:27] least this last one that they did was an obstacle course. And this was like the first individual immunity challenge that we've had, uh, which wasn't ready, set, stand still. You know, you got to assume that these challenges are just like prebuilt and they just like, they, they freshen them up with a new coat of paint between seasons. Yeah, the price is right. Maybe the show could, could subsidize some of the challenge budget and we can, you could just open these up to tourists on the off season, you know, if they're just sitting there, you know, and they're, they're unchanged. I don't know. Yeah.

[01:53:54] But also if they really rebuild them, imagine how annoyed you'd be if you're like one of the Fijian crew members and like every, every, every few months you have to like backbreakingly build the same ramp, you know, that you built last year. I mean, I would be pretty, I'd be like, right. I get it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. This is from deep fried couch who wants to say, what are your thoughts on Padma Lakshmi? Okay. Cause I, I, I said something about this in the chat BCC. I thought.

[01:54:23] After the episode we get, we get America culinary cup and, and it opens and she's like, I'm Padma Lakshmi, you know, like this is what I'm referring to. I don't know. Something about her just skeeves me out a little bit. You don't like her. She's like, she's not like a real person, you know, she's like too, she's too elite. I was in New York a few years ago with my girlfriend. We need a hyena. That's why I like Kristen Kish. She used to be a hyena. Yeah.

[01:54:49] Regular, relatable, you know, I was in New York a few years ago and my girlfriend and I were just shopping, you know, we were walking around all the nice stores and we went to like, I think Ralph Lauren or something, you know, nice, but not like crazy. And, um, there was this very wealthy woman with a cape in Ralph Lauren shopping and she was kind of an older lady and she was leaving. And so, you know, as I was coming in, I was like, Oh, I'll hold the door for you. She just marched right past me. Didn't even look at me, you know? And I was like, Oh, I'm not, I guess I'm not in her tax bracket. You know, I'm not, I don't live in the Upper East Side.

[01:55:19] That's kind of the vibe I get from Padme Lech. Yeah. You get that. Maybe that's kind of what Serene needs to bring into her game. The next time she plays of like, do you know who I am? Do you, you know, are you in my tax bracket? Like people are like, well, I really don't like her anymore. I got a buff with you, you know, got a, got a buff, uh, you know, we got to, got to, got to nice and up a little bit. I can, I don't think it'd be very effective. She's being too humble. We can see it. Being too humble. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[01:55:46] Drew, is anything else on your mind about Survivor beyond? Um, not like, you know, I'm going to shameful, shamelessly self-promote here. Uh, next week I've got an article coming out. Um, the baffler. It's a great question, Rob. It's about, uh, playing trivia. Oh, uh, playing trivia competitively, you know, being on TV, being unemployed, living earn off playing trivia, you know, and the money that you make. Uh, it's a, it's a, you know, reported feature.

[01:56:16] I went to like some trivia events where people are like competing at the highest level. Uh, and I worked really hard on it and, uh, I'm very proud of it. So if you're listening to this next week, go ahead and keep an eye out for this article. Uh, you know, I really, I would really, you know, like to see it do well. How'd you decide where to go to see what people are doing playing trivia? Yeah. So there's like an in-person tournament in Europe each year called IQC. This is like the most elite trivia on the planet. It's like mind numbingly difficult.

[01:56:43] Um, with the exception of Victoria Gross and Yogesh, no. No, no Jeopardy player is going to be good enough to like place at this tournament. I mean, these people are so, so wildly intelligent. They have like photographic memories. They, they're the smartest people you've ever met. They're so smart that they like are like underperformers in the rest of their life. They're like too smart. It's the best way I could explain it sometimes. Um, and so I wanted to go meet these people and like get, get obliterated in the, in the

[01:57:13] tournament of the most difficult trivia on the planet. And I, and I did both of those things. Can I ask you in the world where AI is becoming more prevalent, how much does that affect the world of trivia where that, you know, we, we certainly had Google for all this, for all this time. Does that having any effect on the world of trivia? Yeah. And that actual kind of like that nostalgia is really what the piece is about.

[01:57:40] And it's something I feel, but like very, another really astute, like, you know, point Rob, which is like back in the day, if you were like, you know, the fun facts guy, you know, Google didn't exist. I mean, that was a lot of, you know, that was really impressive. I mean, that's all, that's all annihilated. And I think that the reality is, is that AI is going to like decimate knowledge work the way that like industrialization decimated, you know, crafts, right? These days, if somebody can like make a really good table, you know, I'm kind of like, oh, that's a neat hobby. I mean, it's totally lost the allure.

[01:58:10] People who are smart, people like me, who in theory, like a hundred years ago could have kind of traded off that, that verbal intelligence. I mean, that, that's a feature of the past. That's no more. And so there is something kind of elegiac about like doing trivia, you know, or going to bar trivia and like toting out all of these like, you know, facts and ways of thinking that we learned in school because the world has moved beyond these. I mean, these, these won't be relevant. But AI is wrong about a lot of things. Is there any sort of like, is there any like weird thing where it turns back around where

[01:58:39] it's like the, the AI overview so many times just has the basic facts wrong. Somebody who actually does know the facts, it's almost like that the, the Googling has caused, so like the well has been poisoned in some ways where it's not as reliable as it once was. Does the person who actually knows the facts at any point become a little bit more of a commodity? Maybe. And I think that that is like, that is the hope.

[01:59:07] I have a much more fatalistic attitude about it, which is that the like sheer progress that has been made in four years is like quite literally something out of a science fiction novel. Um, and there's very little reason for me to believe that that progress would, wouldn't continue. Yeah. All right. Well, kind of a down note. On that, on that dour, very dour note. The thing is that reality television can't be replaced. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:59:36] I'm going to, I actually, I'm going to have like a little AI version of me, you know, that I'm, I'm going to like soft launch and roll out to these shows and like, okay, you know, if you're, if you need, if you need some talent and fusion, somebody to like, you know, I don't know, be a mild villain. Like here's my kind of AI console that you can, you can plug in and, uh, you know, we'll see, we'll see. I'm going to be a pioneer here, Rob. Yeah. Okay. Pioneer to the AI reality game. All right. Where could people check out your article next week? Hmm. So it's being the baffler, but the best way, of course, to like keep up with what I'm doing

[02:00:05] and the book and such and such is Instagram. Um, you can find me at Drupasale45. I believe I don't actually know my handle. I guess I should. And of course on Twitter or X, uh, where I am, uh, I'm an infrequent poster and I'm not, I'm not actually a very good poster, but I'm not a good poster. I think I'm almost ready to, um, call bankruptcy on the X.com. Um, even though I, I still read a lot there, I think that I used to have like quips that

[02:00:35] I would post there. Nobody wants, nobody cares. No, it is. Nobody's interested in like, here's a little funny aside. Um, not interested. It's not sticky enough. Not, it's not, uh, you know, appealing to any, uh, primal emotion. I agree. And, and it's also so like clannish on like, you know, X, it's like you're in the like reality thing and you, and you say like oomfy or I don't know, it's to my, to this day,

[02:01:02] I have no idea what oomfy means or you're like, you know, kind of in the right wing bubble, but like there's no market anymore for, for kind of normal tweets. Yeah. Yeah. You can't do it. Bottom is falling out. What can we do? Okay. What are you going to do? Uh, but anyway, this was such a delight. I always am thrilled to have you. Will you watch survivor 51, at least for me? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, I, I, I most certainly will. I'll watch 52 as well. You can come on just for the first episode even. No, no, I, I'm going to, I'm going to watch it.

[02:01:32] I'm going to watch it. I'm actually, I'm back. You know, there was kind of like a, when I got cut from 50, I was like, okay, well, this was the last shot. Like I'm this, I'll never, I'll never play again, which, which is true. And then I was kind of like disenchanted and then the show was doing all this kind of ridiculous stuff. And I was like, okay, well, like, you know, I'm going to set sail to this whole experience. But watching 50, I, I kind of have like, you know, begun to appreciate it more as a viewer and see it kind of intellectually and academically as I did in the past.

[02:02:00] And, you know, I, I'm, I'm more excited about 51 than I was even. Listen, you got to keep watching. This is like our college that we all went to. We're alumni. We got to watch the, the, the, their, their bowl games. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree, Rob. I, you know, I apologize for my disloyalty. I'm back. I'm a, you know, I, I'll, I'll, I'll wear my, my buff colors, uh, you know, whatever, whatever is required. But I, I'm, I'm looking forward to, uh, you know, coming back whenever, whenever you'll have. And how do you feel like now seeing how the season played out?

[02:02:29] Do you feel like that there would have been a home for you in season 50 or do you think it would not have gone well? Um, you know, the thing is I'm pretty like loose on these podcast appearances. So I, I did have the thought that like some people might not like me because of things that I have said about them that they maybe, you know, didn't care for. Um, so that, that was a slight concern. Um, I, I occasionally will get like unfollowed by somebody for, for my opinion, which is like fair enough. There's a lot of blocking going on too.

[02:02:59] No, but I think I would have done pretty well. Oh, wow. Um, with. See, I would have thought that maybe you sort of get painted with the same brush of like the Emily, the Christian, Opry, Rick. Oh, like, oh, he's a, like, he's a gamer. But I'm really, I'm really like a no bullshitter. Uh, and it's my like firm belief that the most optimal way to survive, play survivor is to be loyal pretty much for like the majority of it.

[02:03:25] Uh, and I think also that, um, um, there's a lot of places to hide, uh, on this season. And so I, I just think that like, you know, I, I would probably be able, I think I'd probably go out like mid-burner. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sort of resigned. I don't think it would have gone great for me. So it's, it's easier pill to swallow. You know, Rob pre pre game Alliance right now, you know, I got your back whenever, but you know, it's season a hundred.

[02:03:52] Um, the thing is, is like, you're so, you know, everybody, you know, so it's kind of, it's, it's, it's hard to say, how do you do? I mean, you're obviously a great player. Yeah, but I think that that would be more of a weakness than a strength. I think it'd be so easy to say, oh, he knows everybody. People would be intimidated by it. I kind of do agree. Um, but that being said, I foresee that when it's time for Jeff to hang up the mantle permanently. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know about that, but I'll say I know everybody, but I'm like, everybody's like 15th best survivor friend, you know?

[02:04:22] Yeah. But I mean, there are 14, you know, preferences going to, oh, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe 50th best survivor friend, you know? Yeah. Yeah. How many people are like, uh, you know, like, you know, I'm not like, uh, you know, um, you know, uh, like, you know, ride or die with, uh, too many people of like that. This is my best, this is my best friend. Yeah. Well, it was such a, I mean, since we haven't talked, but it was such a pleasure to watch you uh, you know, on traders. Yes.

[02:04:51] I really have to watch that much. Seriously. I, I subscribed. I just, this is the only season I'd ever watched to watch you and I, and I actually loved it. I thought it was a great season. Oh. Um, and thank you for that. Peacock can thank me for Drew Basile's, uh, 1099 a month. Yeah. Actually, I forgot to cancel. Yeah. So they, they, they really has been 1099 a month. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Always fun with Drew. Drew, we've still got a lot more fun coming up this week, including Lisa Welchel is going to be on the podcast.

[02:05:24] How about that? That's a, that's a name you haven't heard in a while. So, uh, we will, uh, check in with Lisa and everything else to get you ready for the big Survivor 50 finale. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye.