Drew Basile Talks Survivor 47

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back and I'm so excited for this one here today because about sometime during Survivor 46 we had a great chat. Same format, we talked on a Saturday and people, I read the comments and people loved it and they said you gotta do more with this guy and now here he is and since then he's had an incredible run on

[00:00:30] Jeopardy and back with us to talk about everything that's going on in Survivor 47 it's Drew Basile. Drew, how are you?

[00:00:37] You know Rob, I'm doing great and it's a pleasure to be here on I think maybe the best show for me.

[00:00:43] Yes.

[00:00:43] Right? Like when I'm on Survivor you know the fans are neutral when I'm on Jeopardy they're like I mean you know you're just answering questions not personalities limited but

[00:00:52] You brought too much personality.

[00:00:54] I'm truly fetid you know so it's great it's great to be here.

[00:00:57] You're home.

[00:00:57] But I have to say Rob it's not all good. I don't know if you're aware of this but the last time I came on your show it was to discuss Jeopardy and the interview that we had got written up in the New York Post.

[00:01:08] Yes I saw that I saw that yeah.

[00:01:10] I know.

[00:01:11] That was shocking. I was like wow.

[00:01:13] Yes.

[00:01:13] Rob truly has some reach.

[00:01:15] We have reach.

[00:01:16] We have reach.

[00:01:16] Now I've cut Drew tell me if you feel this way if you say something in this podcast that ends up being newsworthy that's probably also bad right?

[00:01:29] Oh bad for me or bad for you?

[00:01:31] Probably both.

[00:01:31] Oh I mean it really must have been insane.

[00:01:32] Probably both. Like if you say something in this interview that ends up getting picked up in the New York Post.

[00:01:38] Yeah and then you're like you're like one of those like Joe Rogan people.

[00:01:42] It's not going to be like oh my Drew Basile amazing takes on Rob has a podcast. Read all about it.

[00:01:49] No yeah. It's going to be like danger cancellation. I mean come to think of it Rob like I'm kind of a ticking time bomb for you. I can say anything.

[00:01:56] No but I appreciate it and I welcome that Drew because I feel like that one of the things that I really respect about you is that I think that you're not afraid to say a controversial or hot take.

[00:02:11] And I want to like really you know continue to bring that into the show because you could say something and I could agree with it or not.

[00:02:20] But I love hearing it from you.

[00:02:23] I appreciate that Rob. I think I think I feel very free at this point. You know my survivor career is you seem free a year and a half. It's been a while.

[00:02:31] And I recently flew out to LA just for some you know of some business and everybody was out there and they all knew each other and all the survivors were hanging out.

[00:02:41] And I was like wow like this is this is it's great to see you guys but like I'm so disconnected. I live in England you know like this doesn't matter to me at all.

[00:02:48] You know like this is just this is just playing with house money. So being so distant from the community I can just like you know open fire.

[00:02:55] You felt like that the other survivors all know each other and spend a lot of time together and you're like you know the cousin who lives overseas doesn't really get to see the rest of the family.

[00:03:06] You know it is a perfect metaphor Rob.

[00:03:09] I'm like vaguely affiliated and like you know far I can come to the event but I don't know who's there is basically how things are.

[00:03:17] Yeah. And the irony is that really your cast is considered of like maybe of any of the cast of specifically of the new era like the closest cast.

[00:03:28] Oh and we absolutely are.

[00:03:31] Being being you know on the show you're privy to different information than than you are not on the show.

[00:03:37] So you get to know about the dynamics of the cast and and drama and gossip and things like that.

[00:03:42] Let me tell you being on the season 45 cast was like was like Dodge getting off the tracks at the last moment because there have been so much insane stuff to happen in these these high school cliques.

[00:03:55] Yes. So I'm very grateful. I love everybody in the 40 but you feel like that you're still in the group chats.

[00:04:00] You're still like you're you're informed but you're just not part of the drama.

[00:04:05] I guess I mean I'm only in one one group chat.

[00:04:08] Yeah. There's probably one. There's probably more.

[00:04:10] Yeah. On Instagram that I'm in the 45 group chat.

[00:04:13] So I get like you know with the Christmas card updates and stuff but all the all the real gossip occurs in the DMs the one to one DM.

[00:04:21] Okay. So yeah. All right.

[00:04:22] But there's a new community forming Rob. I don't know if you know about this.

[00:04:25] Yes. Because Michigan.

[00:04:27] Michigan is on the rise.

[00:04:28] I thought you were going to say on Survivor 47.

[00:04:30] Okay. But in Michigan is on the rise.

[00:04:33] Michigan. I mean you got to bet on Michigan right now guys.

[00:04:35] You got to go buy property because number one the lions are killing it.

[00:04:38] I was just talking about this with Rob.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:40] But number two.

[00:04:41] Michigan has become a survivor dynasty.

[00:04:43] I mean they're like a feeder school.

[00:04:45] You know we've got Kenzie from Michigan.

[00:04:47] Rachel.

[00:04:48] Kenzie's from Michigan.

[00:04:49] I thought she's from North Carolina.

[00:04:51] No. No.

[00:04:51] She grew up in like freaking Gibraltar.

[00:04:53] She grew up in the downfield.

[00:04:56] What?

[00:04:56] She lives here now.

[00:04:58] Well no.

[00:04:59] No.

[00:04:59] No.

[00:04:59] But she grew up in Michigan.

[00:05:01] You know you can't take that.

[00:05:01] You can't take the Midwest.

[00:05:03] I don't care where she was.

[00:05:05] You don't get to claim Kenzie.

[00:05:07] Who else you got?

[00:05:08] I credit Kenzie's social game 95% to the Michigan charm.

[00:05:13] 95%.

[00:05:14] All right.

[00:05:14] Who else?

[00:05:14] She's a great player.

[00:05:15] Who else?

[00:05:15] But she was just actualizing the God-given state characteristics that we have.

[00:05:21] So if you want to win Survivor you got to come to Michigan.

[00:05:23] This is the lesson.

[00:05:24] That was it?

[00:05:25] Just Kenzie?

[00:05:25] Grew up there?

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:28] But like Rachel could win.

[00:05:29] You know maybe she's a winner.

[00:05:30] Is Rachel from Michigan?

[00:05:30] Maybe I could have won.

[00:05:31] Is Rachel from Michigan?

[00:05:33] Rachel is from Michigan.

[00:05:34] I didn't know that.

[00:05:34] I actually live down the street from Rachel.

[00:05:35] Well that's one of the things I feel like that Rachel could be our newest Survivor winner.

[00:05:39] And I feel like that.

[00:05:40] Look she's a good game player.

[00:05:42] I don't feel like I know anything about Rachel.

[00:05:46] Yeah.

[00:05:46] What's her job?

[00:05:49] Well she does like advertising.

[00:05:51] She's advertising?

[00:05:52] Yeah.

[00:05:53] I think she's advertising.

[00:05:54] Yeah.

[00:05:55] I think she works for like car companies and stuff.

[00:05:57] I don't really know.

[00:05:58] Maybe I'm breaking the containment zone in this information.

[00:06:03] She advertises car companies.

[00:06:04] Well that's hey that's big business in Detroit.

[00:06:07] If you're going to advertise car companies.

[00:06:09] I was just in Phoenix and all the cars are you know autonomous.

[00:06:13] Oh she's a graphic designer.

[00:06:14] I just had an epiphany.

[00:06:16] Just from that.

[00:06:17] Maybe she do graphic design for the car companies?

[00:06:20] Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:06:20] That's what she does.

[00:06:24] Anyways.

[00:06:25] I forgot what I was going to say.

[00:06:27] Okay.

[00:06:27] But very embarrassing.

[00:06:28] I'm sorry Rachel.

[00:06:29] All right.

[00:06:30] Well I'd like to talk more about that.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:32] Rachel 34 from Dexter Michigan is a graphic designer.

[00:06:36] And I mean I'm sure I knew that at one point.

[00:06:38] But I definitely it has not been part of her journey.

[00:06:41] She has not even given one confessional as a graphic designer.

[00:06:45] Well honestly good.

[00:06:46] You know I hate when people get these like shoehorned in things about their career.

[00:06:50] And they're like oh I'm a shoe salesman.

[00:06:52] So I got to know when the shoe fits.

[00:06:54] And I don't trust like okay.

[00:06:55] You could do a lot with as a shoe salesman.

[00:06:58] Yeah.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:06:59] I'm about to be the sole survivor.

[00:07:03] They probably wouldn't cast a shoe salesman this day and age.

[00:07:06] You know they're like you know like AI researchers only.

[00:07:08] You know need not apply.

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:12] But yeah.

[00:07:13] All right.

[00:07:14] Well let's talk about I think that shoe salesman.

[00:07:17] And I think that it's so interesting now because this past season on Big Brother we had a guy who worked in a video store.

[00:07:24] So I think it would be like ironically interesting a shoe salesman where it would have been like 20, 30 years ago like maybe the most boring job.

[00:07:32] Now I think that's like oh I'm a shoe salesman.

[00:07:34] Tell me about that.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:36] Well I mean the video store is really looped the loop because it's like where would you even find one of those these days.

[00:07:41] I mean it's like a rare like creature you would bring to like the circus.

[00:07:45] You know here's the last surviving video store employee.

[00:07:49] And he was kind of a character too so maybe he'd really fit in.

[00:07:52] Oh you watch?

[00:07:53] No I see on Twitter.

[00:07:55] Oh okay.

[00:07:55] I don't know.

[00:07:56] The character.

[00:07:57] All right.

[00:07:57] So Drew I guess why don't we start with we're heading into the final four.

[00:08:03] Do you feel like that you have a good read on how the season is shaking out?

[00:08:08] A good read.

[00:08:09] I mean the season is over.

[00:08:11] You know it's finished.

[00:08:12] It's finished.

[00:08:13] It's locked up.

[00:08:13] You can slot it into the rankings that you know from this point because.

[00:08:18] That's what Dalton Ross does.

[00:08:20] Oh already?

[00:08:21] I think he already does.

[00:08:22] I gotta look it up.

[00:08:23] Let me see what he did.

[00:08:24] Well the thing is also Rob is that the finale is the most boring episode of Survivor.

[00:08:27] Do you like that they made it the two-part finale?

[00:08:30] Not at all.

[00:08:31] And I'll bet you they don't even like it.

[00:08:33] I read in some interview that like CBS asked them at the last second to extend their show because like they didn't have air time and like they had thought the presidential debate would consume a Wednesday and it didn't.

[00:08:45] Yeah.

[00:08:45] We got left with this this half formed you know finale where all the juicy stuff already happened and then next week we're you know we're heading to the coronation.

[00:08:55] It's like you know I look at it kind of like election day right you go and you go and you vote on like shit November November 20th.

[00:09:05] Whatever you vote.

[00:09:05] I think it's earlier than that.

[00:09:06] I think it's earlier than that.

[00:09:07] You're not in the country.

[00:09:09] You go and you vote in November and you get you know what's gonna happen and then you gotta wait like two more months and then and then it happens and you're supposed to be excited the second time.

[00:09:18] That's kind of how I feel about this finale like okay we know we know who's gonna win and now we gotta wait a couple months and then we'll you know get to see the awkward reunion where like Sam and and Teenie or Sue will try not to cry.

[00:09:33] So but yeah I know I think it's done and dusted.

[00:09:35] I think Rachel has played a really impressive game and the edit is really pumping her up is like the big threat the master fire maker challenge beast.

[00:09:43] It's just gonna be a shock if she doesn't win.

[00:09:45] Yeah do you feel like that you have a sense of how the final four will go down what happens on Wednesday night.

[00:09:54] Um I'm not really sure.

[00:09:56] How do we get to a Rachel win?

[00:09:59] Yeah I mean I the question is does Rachel win immunity does Rachel make fire because there's no way they're gonna like sit around.

[00:10:05] Yeah and I agree I'm 100% with you I believe that it's gonna be Rachel crowned as the winner on Wednesday night but I do think that it is interesting to talk about how it works out.

[00:10:14] Because if Rachel wins the final four immunity do you see Rachel should she make the fire?

[00:10:22] No don't make the fire there's no point in making the fire.

[00:10:25] The thing about that final four immunity uh that's very paradoxical is that and actually I think Jake was ahead of the curve on this.

[00:10:34] I didn't really I didn't really appreciate until Jake started to you know do it as the last chance.

[00:10:37] Yeah break the challenge.

[00:10:39] Well no it's all break the challenge for sure.

[00:10:42] You know the fire making you just take the knife and you threaten Jeff and then you're into the final three.

[00:10:46] It's a it's a foolproof strategy and that would be breaking the challenge but um no I mean it's all about theater right.

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:54] And I think that there's kind of a mistake in the way that people are viewing the fire making right now like if I were to go into 50 I would say well listen.

[00:11:01] Um the winning winning the final four immunity is is an advantage right and you're going to deploy this advantage this instrument you know any way you want.

[00:11:09] And so you're choosing the best person to win choosing the best person to win is like my move.

[00:11:15] That's how I would pitch it and I think that right now um Rachel is so obviously ahead of the game that she can just you know like pit the children together have them fight it out um and she'll be fine.

[00:11:26] You know she can take credit she'll be like this was my this was my move I was I was neutralizing you know a big threat or I was letting two people who aren't going to win anyways you know compete for this meaningless award.

[00:11:36] Uh she's already got such a high threat level with the jury that and moreover more importantly there's nobody that can lose in fire making that is consequential enough to add to that threat level.

[00:11:47] That's just like why would she participate?

[00:11:49] Well I think it's interesting like in the context of your season where you know I was trying to figure this out yesterday when we do the patron call and people call in and we take a lot of questions about this kind of stuff.

[00:11:59] So you know Dee wins the final four challenge in your season and then she like Jake was like hey let me make let me make the fire and it really played out where your buddy Austin he wanted to go into the fire.

[00:12:14] Oh yeah.

[00:12:15] He wanted to do it and Dee's like no I'm gonna take Austin to the final uh three and I kind of feel like that for Rachel that could be the move and I hadn't been really been thinking about this yet.

[00:12:26] Of because I had been worried for Rachel I saw a potential scenario where okay she says you know what I'm not gonna give up my necklace Sam and Sue you make the fire and now here's Sam who's been talked about as a threat.

[00:12:40] He has a chance to kind of like make a last impression with the jury you know how impression I mean you weren't but you you know how these juries are they see somebody make a fire.

[00:13:19] Oh yeah.

[00:13:20] I think it's absolutely the move.

[00:13:22] I think um I think that Rachel I mean she said it last episode that like Sam is probably the biggest threat of the remainders um the non-Genevieve and Rachel's um Sam can probably I hear actually he's not that good at fire but.

[00:13:36] Where'd you hear that from?

[00:13:37] Your sources?

[00:13:39] I think it was in I you know actually Rob you'll be impressed by this I watched the exit interviews.

[00:13:44] Oh okay.

[00:13:44] Um I think I think in one of the exit interviews uh like Andy or Genevieve was like oh um Sam, Teeny, and Sue are bad at fire.

[00:13:54] Okay.

[00:13:55] I thought Sam wanted to take Genevieve wanted to beat Genevieve at fire.

[00:13:59] I have no idea.

[00:14:00] I didn't watch that exit interview.

[00:14:02] Yeah I think Andy says he's very good at the fire.

[00:14:05] Yeah well he's Andy's good at a lot of things.

[00:14:08] Sometimes Andy's not good at things he should be good at.

[00:14:10] Like he's got all these muscles you know he's all he's all big and strong and he sucks at challenges.

[00:14:14] I won more challenges than Andy did.

[00:14:16] Uh and you know look at me.

[00:14:18] Yeah.

[00:14:18] How are you at the fire?

[00:14:20] Could you make a fire?

[00:14:20] Oh I was terrible.

[00:14:21] I didn't make a fire a day.

[00:14:22] I was pampered out there.

[00:14:23] I mean I had like Austin catching fish you know D's always fixing the shelter.

[00:14:27] I just like laid around and I always said like you know I must be doing pretty good socially because I'm so lazy and nobody complains.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:34] So it must be all fine.

[00:14:36] Yeah.

[00:14:36] Did you practice though?

[00:14:37] Did you go out like in the in the woods and then practice making fires?

[00:14:42] I made I made them on my on my lawn in Philly and I lived on like I lived in just a regular house but the house was on frat row.

[00:14:51] So this was like quite comical.

[00:14:52] Everyone walking by and.

[00:14:54] Did anybody call the police that there's an arsonist?

[00:14:57] That was not my worry but it never you know it never happened.

[00:15:00] All kinds of shenanigans go on.

[00:15:01] This doesn't even make you know this doesn't even make the newspaper in Philly and in you know within the college campus generally.

[00:15:09] You had in the news recently one of our esteemed alumni you know shot this insurance guy.

[00:15:16] So this is big news.

[00:15:17] Oh OK.

[00:15:18] Oh that is a famous alumni.

[00:15:20] Yeah.

[00:15:20] So see how do I compare to that?

[00:15:22] You know I wouldn't want to but also you know it's not a big deal.

[00:15:26] So anyways moving on.

[00:15:30] The the the really Rachel has nothing to gain from participating in the fire.

[00:15:35] Yeah.

[00:15:36] Sue and teeny are like bluegills.

[00:15:38] I mean they're small fish beating Sam turns what is like a dominant victory into a drubbing.

[00:15:46] It's not really necessary.

[00:15:47] She knows that Rachel is so sharp in these little calculations that I think this this plan you've you've provisioned out is really sharp is really smart.

[00:15:54] I think the only way Rachel ends up.

[00:15:56] I mean don't give me credit.

[00:15:57] I just remember your season and thought about oh that's what he did.

[00:16:01] Yeah that is a good move.

[00:16:02] You know D strategic mastermind.

[00:16:05] Nobody stocked his risen higher in recent you know years which I like and agree with.

[00:16:10] But yeah it just seems like a no-brainer.

[00:16:12] And the real question is if she loses are people going to put her in.

[00:16:15] I mean OK.

[00:16:16] Especially everyone knows she's good.

[00:16:17] Let's give Sam the necklace.

[00:16:19] OK.

[00:16:20] How does Sam play this.

[00:16:21] Sam has to take Rachel into the fire right.

[00:16:23] Oh it has to.

[00:16:25] I mean has to put it on the line.

[00:16:26] I think he would do it too.

[00:16:28] I think that Sue though.

[00:16:30] I doubt Sue puts Rachel in fire.

[00:16:32] And then Teenie.

[00:16:33] I really like Teenie.

[00:16:35] I've met Teenie in real life actually.

[00:16:36] She's really you know a lot of fun.

[00:16:39] They're really a lot of fun.

[00:16:40] Say again.

[00:16:40] Very fun.

[00:16:42] Yeah totally.

[00:16:43] Really nice person.

[00:16:44] But it seems to be that Teenie is kind of like not aware of like how she sits in the hierarchy.

[00:16:49] Yeah.

[00:16:50] Like I like I think Teenie is just kind of envisioning final tribal councils like this point at the end of the game where she gets to see all her friends and they all tell her how much they love her.

[00:16:58] And then she'll have a million dollars.

[00:17:00] It's been a rough road for Teenie.

[00:17:02] And you know it's been well documented all season long about how Teenie you know I actually went back.

[00:17:09] I watched the first episode again this morning as like we're heading into finale week.

[00:17:13] I thought it'd be a good thing to go back and check in on a couple of things with the edit.

[00:17:17] And you know Teenie comes in and like is actually like pretty confident that Teenie's like social ability and knowledge of the show is really gonna you know carry the day.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:30] No I mean and it's kind of like an emperor with no clothes situation you know that like like the edit is just treating Teenie like she's like you know like like an end game player.

[00:17:41] Like she's like some strategic mastermind for a long time and you're waiting for like the other you know for it to happen and it never happens.

[00:17:48] I mean yeah.

[00:17:48] And we're at a point where even though the edit is super nice to Teenie I can't disguise it anymore.

[00:17:53] And so it's kind of like a weird mismatch of like edit and gameplay that I feel like we actually haven't on the show seen in a long time.

[00:18:00] So like so so vivid.

[00:18:03] Well there was that moment where Teenie holds up like Teenie's bag got burnt in the fire and Teenie talked about like this this situation in the game reminds Teenie about her identity and her struggle with that.

[00:18:14] And then look at this bag my bag burnt in the fire and this bag represents me and the fire that's been lit underneath me.

[00:18:22] Steven Fishback said this is Teenie's winner edit.

[00:18:25] Everybody get on board.

[00:18:27] Here we go.

[00:18:28] Stuff is getting going.

[00:18:29] And since that point Drew Teenie has only voted correctly for Kyle.

[00:18:35] The easiest vote of all time you know.

[00:18:38] The easiest one to get on the run.

[00:18:40] It's been a bad.

[00:18:41] At every turn Teenie is going the wrong way.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:46] Teenie is all turned around.

[00:18:48] But I do I do have a lot of sympathy for Teenie because like super young like what 22.

[00:18:54] I think 23 I believe 23.

[00:18:57] So I was 22 out there.

[00:18:58] I was the youngest person out there in the season and play survivor.

[00:19:03] So young is really hard like I'm sure there are a lot of these super fans who are like you know you know chomping at the bit raring to go.

[00:19:10] You don't know who you are at 23.

[00:19:12] Like you haven't really experienced anything.

[00:19:13] You haven't really gone through anything.

[00:19:15] You've never had to like work for your bread really.

[00:19:17] I mean maybe you have.

[00:19:18] I mean you haven't been a breadwinner.

[00:19:20] Yeah exactly.

[00:19:21] You know you never had like real responsibilities.

[00:19:25] So you don't know who you are and there's like all these identity questions thrown around.

[00:19:28] You're also a little immature.

[00:19:29] Like I certainly am.

[00:19:30] I still am super immature.

[00:19:31] True.

[00:19:32] I went to go play survivor.

[00:19:33] I had just turned 24 when I went to go play survivor.

[00:19:37] I lived in my parents basement.

[00:19:42] Well I guess you're better than us.

[00:19:45] No.

[00:19:45] Because you just need to have it all.

[00:19:47] I'm empathizing that I wasn't a grown up.

[00:19:52] Yeah.

[00:19:53] Nobody should have let me be on television.

[00:19:56] Yeah and you went out to like the real jungle man.

[00:19:59] Like you went out to like a real inhospitable place.

[00:20:02] Why Fiji is not a real jungle?

[00:20:04] No.

[00:20:05] Fiji is like one of the softest biomes on the planet.

[00:20:09] Like you know you could get lost for two weeks on your own in Fiji and survive.

[00:20:14] It's like no I mean it's not.

[00:20:15] I like Fiji.

[00:20:16] I would go on vacation there.

[00:20:17] But it's like Fiji is a cushy place.

[00:20:19] It's not like the Amazon where there's like snakes.

[00:20:21] Okay if survivors in a place where people actually go on vacation that's a good spot.

[00:20:26] Like very few people like only like maniacs vacation in the Amazon.

[00:20:31] Yeah I guess there are gradients to it.

[00:20:33] But like if you had out like token chains like holy shnikes you're screwed.

[00:20:37] Yeah.

[00:20:37] You know the Amazon.

[00:20:38] Oh my lord.

[00:20:39] Fiji in comparison is a little bit of a cakewalk I think.

[00:20:41] I don't know.

[00:20:42] I've never been to the Amazon.

[00:20:43] Hopefully I never go.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] It sounds like it sounds really freaking awful.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:48] Yeah overrated.

[00:20:48] I believe that Rob.

[00:20:50] And I'm sure also it's like age 24.

[00:20:52] You were really tweaking.

[00:20:54] You were like what am I doing?

[00:20:56] Like why did I agree to do this?

[00:20:58] I had never like gone camping before.

[00:21:00] I just like I would have like sleepless nights like I'm gonna go die.

[00:21:05] What am I doing?

[00:21:06] Oh my gosh.

[00:21:07] Actually getting on survivor like was one of the worst weeks of my life because I was like

[00:21:12] holy crap.

[00:21:13] Like there's no out now.

[00:21:14] Like I gotta go.

[00:21:15] I gotta go do this thing.

[00:21:17] I'm gonna humiliate myself.

[00:21:18] I'm gonna sunburn.

[00:21:19] I mean that was that was weirdly high on the priority list sunburn.

[00:21:23] But you know it's it's a very scary thing to commit to.

[00:21:26] In Fiji though it's a little bit easier.

[00:21:28] It's still hard.

[00:21:28] Teeny I can tell that like Teeny is struggling with some of the kind of like same tailspin same

[00:21:34] like worries that I felt like I got into at the end of the game.

[00:21:37] So it gives me a lot of sympathy for Teeny.

[00:21:38] But it cannot be denied that like not only do they have no chance of winning the game

[00:21:43] but I'm not really sure that they're aware of their position in the game.

[00:21:46] And so maybe it's like a situation where like it's best that you know somebody goes out

[00:21:51] at Final Four fire making.

[00:21:54] I'd love to talk to you a little bit about that you know your season and in your alliance

[00:22:00] that you were a part of it's such an anomaly in the new era.

[00:22:03] The Reba 4 as it was really is such a standout in the new era in that it was a group that

[00:22:13] was able to ride out for the most part you know all of the you know temptations in the

[00:22:21] post-merge game.

[00:22:22] And really we have seen very few alliances in the new era of Survivor.

[00:22:29] Do you think that there was something in particular that you all were thinking or doing that made

[00:22:36] that group be such a just a standout in this era of Survivor where there aren't alliances?

[00:22:48] Yeah no I mean it's it's an interesting question.

[00:22:51] I think I felt like the Reba 4 was kind of like the prototype to like the ideal way that

[00:22:55] Survivor right now should be played because you have these kind of fractured three tribe

[00:23:00] formats where you know like the expectation is I mean you don't even have big voting box

[00:23:06] to begin with but the expectation is you're going to leave those voting box you're going

[00:23:08] to be flexible.

[00:23:09] And if you just hold together like if you just resist the temptation as your tribe I mean

[00:23:14] easy win right?

[00:23:15] Like because because you know you're playing these atomized groups you can just dominate

[00:23:18] just it's like it's like in Borneo when you show up to the merge and it's 1-1-1-1-4 you

[00:23:23] know it's like the four could just take it.

[00:23:26] But it's hard to resist the temptation as you've pointed out and I think why Reba was

[00:23:29] kind of so successful was we were four of the best players on the season talent wise.

[00:23:37] I mean like we're probably like four of the six best players in the season.

[00:23:40] We all really liked each other and we all kind of correctly had calculated that the way to

[00:23:45] do well in Survivor at this point is to play a loyal game.

[00:23:48] So we had every incentive to set it up.

[00:23:50] I think if you're going on Survivor you want and it was interesting one of the things I

[00:23:54] also saw in like the exit interviews and stuff is that everyone wanted to work with

[00:23:59] Sue this time around.

[00:24:00] Did you catch this?

[00:24:01] People were talking about it in the pregame.

[00:24:03] They all wanted to work with Sue.

[00:24:04] Yeah.

[00:24:04] Okay.

[00:24:04] So in the preseason people wanted to work with Sue but that was a Mama J.

[00:24:10] Yes.

[00:24:10] It's because people look at the older woman and say the older woman is a loyal ally.

[00:24:14] Everyone wants a loyal ally.

[00:24:15] Everyone recognizes that like I just need like people who are going to like truck together

[00:24:19] for a long time even if it's not like the flashiest way to play.

[00:24:22] But the point is if you get a lot of good players to agree to do that then you're set.

[00:24:26] You're in minutes and spades.

[00:24:28] So the Reba 4 obviously I think like the most successful alliance of the new era.

[00:24:32] I don't think that's like a controversy.

[00:24:34] I don't think that's showboating.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:36] Yeah.

[00:24:37] I think it's for the Reba 4 and the Tika 3.

[00:24:40] But I think that for the Tika 3 I think that there were other bigger groups and they were

[00:24:45] sort of like more forced together.

[00:24:48] I feel like that they did not really have like as many options to be able to go their

[00:24:52] separate ways.

[00:24:53] But yeah the Reba 4 you know had the numbers and stuck together.

[00:24:58] It's kind of like the invisible hand.

[00:25:01] You ever hear about this Rob like in economics?

[00:25:05] Adam Smith.

[00:25:06] Economics.

[00:25:07] And it's like if everyone just acts in their self-interest you know things kind of like

[00:25:10] work out right.

[00:25:12] And what we have here economically speaking are irrational actors.

[00:25:17] You know people who have not recognized what's in their self-interest.

[00:25:19] People who are obsessed this season especially you know so fixated on the narrative.

[00:25:24] You know the narrative of I'm playing survivor and what do I want my legacy to be and you know

[00:25:28] what are the audience at home going to be thinking.

[00:25:30] That they're behaving irrational in a gameplay setting.

[00:25:32] And if you're a rational actor you recognize that the way to go is to build a steady you

[00:25:38] know coalition of people you can beat.

[00:25:40] So if you're the best player you need to work together with the other people who are the

[00:25:43] best and just ride it out to the end game and then start playing at the end game.

[00:25:48] Drew do you think that the announcement of a Survivor 50 with returnees and the sort of

[00:25:55] allure of coming back to Survivor changed the way when you say that people were making

[00:26:00] irrational decisions in this season.

[00:26:02] Do you think that people were maybe motivated by things other than just how to win this

[00:26:07] particular season of Survivor.

[00:26:09] Well I don't remember if 50 was announced before they went to tape.

[00:26:14] Yes it was.

[00:26:15] Oh it was.

[00:26:15] Okay definitely.

[00:26:17] I mean even if it hadn't been announced of course they're like they're self-involved with 50.

[00:26:21] The thing about Survivor that is really incommunicable to like people who haven't done the experience

[00:26:27] is that it is this insane you know rush of adrenaline and real like every day you're fighting

[00:26:33] for your life every day you're like scrambling every day is high octane and when you come

[00:26:37] back to real life real life doesn't feel real right.

[00:26:40] There is like a four to six month period I'll say where like you're just kind of floating

[00:26:44] on air and it's you know this wasn't just my experience like it like it feels very inconsequential

[00:26:49] in comparison to this like visceral you know adrenaline experience that you've just had.

[00:26:55] But when that fades away a lot of people are desperate for the next fix you know it's

[00:27:00] like a drug like I'm desperate to feel that way again I'm desperate to not just like you

[00:27:04] know feel this like profound meaningfulness of every day but also like I'm desperate for

[00:27:09] the attention I want to be on TV I want I want Instagram followers right like most people's

[00:27:15] lives are fairly inconsequential mine included and to have this chance of you know for six

[00:27:19] months to feel like your life is inconsequential or a year because you've taped and now you're

[00:27:24] waiting to air knowing like secretly you're a you know you're a time bomb of social media

[00:27:28] likes.

[00:27:30] I mean it's it's addictive and so people immediately as soon as they go out of the game as soon

[00:27:35] as they leave are looking for that next fix and that's why they behave so ridiculously

[00:27:38] on social media that's why we get you know a lot of people like obviously you and fishback

[00:27:43] are immune at this point you're like you know in the pantheon but like a lot of people that's

[00:27:46] why we get like these little takes and you know everyone everyone messages the people

[00:27:50] currently on like oh you're so cool um because it's all it's all just like trying to get in

[00:27:55] the slipstream it's all just trying to get back out there.

[00:27:57] Did you get a lot of messages when you were on 45?

[00:28:01] You know it's I don't think I was ever one of the cool kids so my messages were fairly

[00:28:05] fairly limited but some people got a lot of messages um I was just like a nerd like oh

[00:28:10] we've seen enough of these guys.

[00:28:11] Because I almost never have sent messages to any of the players that are from and I think a lot

[00:28:18] of times I think that the players think that I don't like them because I really I try not to

[00:28:22] engage at all with the players because I'm so worried about being spoiled or knowing anything.

[00:28:27] I try to leave the players alone that are on the card so I don't even know what to say

[00:28:32] to somebody who is like on the show.

[00:28:36] What do you say?

[00:28:37] I have this problem all my life like it's like I'm on LinkedIn like I want to I want to

[00:28:41] want a job at this company.

[00:28:42] What do I say?

[00:28:44] Like hello please hire me.

[00:28:45] You know I'm like you know reaching out to the survivors like hello if we ever play again

[00:28:49] it would be really cool.

[00:28:50] I think you're cool.

[00:28:51] Like no I don't know.

[00:28:52] I don't know the subtlety but a lot of people do and I think that like the people who play

[00:28:56] more recently are invested Rob.

[00:28:57] So I mean you know for you it's been like it's been a couple decades you know if you're if

[00:29:02] you're still like if you're still you're still like pretty much like a like a Drew

[00:29:09] Basile lifetime since I played.

[00:29:12] Yeah yeah literally.

[00:29:13] I mean I wasn't even I was barely around.

[00:29:15] I was like I was in that I was in a cradle at that point Rob.

[00:29:19] I was unintelligible.

[00:29:21] So it's been a while.

[00:29:22] I mean no offense.

[00:29:23] You're a young guy.

[00:29:24] I don't take any offense.

[00:29:25] I think it's great.

[00:29:26] I you know I really enjoy getting to talk to like this new generation of you know people

[00:29:34] that grew up with Survivor and I hope you know this you're you're one of my favorites

[00:29:38] to talk to but there's a bunch of people young people from the new era that really just

[00:29:44] like are so quick thinking about the show and have all sorts of interesting ideas about

[00:29:50] the show and where it is so no disrespect at all.

[00:29:55] No well I appreciate it Rob.

[00:29:58] I do you're you're my favorite to talk to two of all of all the podcasters and such.

[00:30:03] I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of imitators but you know you're the original

[00:30:06] and I admire that.

[00:30:07] But let's let's talk 50 right because it's that everyone's mine everyone's playing for

[00:30:12] return.

[00:30:12] I've said this before I've said come on you know podcast your podcast and said that the jury

[00:30:16] is a really flawed format because there's a separate game that goes on in the jury and

[00:30:21] I won't reiterate that because people get really mad at you know it affects the validity of

[00:30:25] their favorite winners.

[00:30:27] But jurors are making decisions based on wins.

[00:30:30] Can I ask you but I can I ask you to just can you give us the quick version?

[00:30:33] Oh yeah for sure.

[00:30:35] Okay the basic premise and I everyone every time I say this I get all these like mean you

[00:30:40] know things so I've refined it in my mind I've distilled it.

[00:30:44] But there's the game going on in out there in the island.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:49] But there is a separate game that goes on at home or like on the jury.

[00:30:53] They're they're playing not just you know get their way and have their favorite people

[00:30:57] win but to have a winner that reflects well in them to appear you know well on the jury

[00:31:02] either by having big reactions or you know speaking the most or making a positive press.

[00:31:08] And if you go watch rewatch the 43 jury you'll see this in spades like everyone is showboating

[00:31:11] everyone's performing.

[00:31:14] The real thing about the jury though is that like imagine a legal jury that's kind of the

[00:31:18] model for Survivor explicitly the model you know back in the day it was like this is

[00:31:21] they're going to like hear the case and they're going to decide who's the winner.

[00:31:24] What if the legal jury has like you know their stock dividends are like dependent on who wins

[00:31:29] you know they're they're they're invested.

[00:31:31] I mean like they're they're putting their finger in the scale you know it's it's not going

[00:31:33] to be impartial decision making.

[00:31:35] It's going to be decision making that's reflective of their own self-interest on how you know

[00:31:38] they'll look and also it'll be decision making reflected on the kind of weird psychodynamics

[00:31:44] of Ponderosa because Ponderosa is a weird place.

[00:31:46] I mean everyone is like everyone is grieving it's like a funeral in certain ways but then

[00:31:49] also it's like everyone is immediately playing to you know play again and to kind of like solidify

[00:31:55] their narrative that they were the best among the jury and that means denigrating other people.

[00:31:59] And so basically the results of the first game on the island are entirely disconnected

[00:32:04] from the more important results of the second game which not only do you not get to see on television

[00:32:09] but like it is then determining the winner.

[00:32:12] The jury has some real problems that I've I've I've tried to express in brief.

[00:32:16] Yeah.

[00:32:17] These problems really are amplified when 50 is on the cards because then it's not just like

[00:32:22] oh well who's going to win this season make me look good but like who's going to set up

[00:32:25] my narrative for 50.

[00:32:26] Who do I want to kind of like you know play 50 with.

[00:32:30] Do I you know who who might the producers want to win.

[00:32:34] Like they want to win so that I can you know be good and vote for them to get on 50.

[00:32:38] I mean there's a lot of can I go back to when you say that.

[00:32:41] Okay.

[00:32:42] So it's like if there are stockholders that are on the case for the drew.

[00:32:46] What do you mean by that in terms of like you know at 43 I feel like it's like the controversial

[00:32:53] jury opinion.

[00:32:54] Like are you saying like that the people in the jury feel like that that's the best winner

[00:32:58] of the season in their mind.

[00:33:00] And so that's what they want to do.

[00:33:03] Okay.

[00:33:04] I had this thought with Austin that when I was up there voting on the jury if Austin won

[00:33:10] I would be an idiot.

[00:33:12] Right.

[00:33:12] If Austin won I would become editing wise a liability like a like a guy who would say anything socially

[00:33:19] Austin would be the strategic mastermind.

[00:33:22] My edit would be diminutive.

[00:33:24] Right.

[00:33:24] I would I would be like I would be like the sidekick the Sancho Paz which actually I guess

[00:33:29] Sancho Paz is smarter than Don Quixote but I would I would be the sidekick completely.

[00:33:33] But if Austin lost I would probably get a pretty good edit.

[00:33:37] I would probably get like a great edit and it might seem like say again.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:42] It might seem like once I left then things fell apart.

[00:33:45] But you voted for him.

[00:33:46] I did because I was like Austin my friend because you're a game should be played.

[00:33:51] That's not like you know I'll take the bullet whatever.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:54] I thought Austin played a good game too.

[00:33:57] But I considered that that pressure on me and I thought oh my god every other person is to a

[00:34:02] greater or lesser degree making these kind of calculations and a lot of them don't have this

[00:34:07] like you know kind of like anti-competitive you know desire to be loyal to to their friends and

[00:34:12] you know to support the people they played with.

[00:34:14] A lot of people are just going to be like oh well you know let's do it.

[00:34:17] Let's let's let's do what's best for me.

[00:34:19] I don't care about the game.

[00:34:20] Yeah.

[00:34:20] Can you map this to 46 because that was probably one of the more recent controversial jury opinions.

[00:34:27] I would really hate to like psychoanalyze you know people on that jury because I really like a lot of that cast.

[00:34:35] But I think like let's take let's take it on controversial one.

[00:34:38] Let's take Tiffany and Kenzie right.

[00:34:41] Tiffany gets back to the jury.

[00:34:42] She finds out that Kenzie had betrayed her betrayed plan to betray her you know long before Tiffany had ever thought about betraying Kenzie.

[00:34:49] So her ally her friend beat her out.

[00:34:54] Tiffany's got a couple options.

[00:34:55] Tiffany can like you know can be mad Tiffany and vote for Charlie or Ben.

[00:35:03] She can be neutral or she can recognize that gee if Kenzie wins it makes me look a lot better.

[00:35:12] You know because not then I was I was fooled by the best of the best.

[00:35:16] You know I was working with the winner.

[00:35:17] I was working with the person who dominated our season.

[00:35:20] If Charlie wins then I was fooled by a runner up.

[00:35:24] You know I was fooled by this nobody you know who was inconsequential.

[00:35:27] So there there's kind of an editing incentive for Tiffany to go one way.

[00:35:31] But how do you know that Tiffany didn't have the same thought process that you have of like hey but you know what this is my friend who's there and I got to do the right thing.

[00:35:39] And that might be how other people are thinking but I'm actually going to vote the way that you're supposed to vote.

[00:35:46] She probably did.

[00:35:47] The point is not like this was a corrupted result.

[00:35:50] The point is that there is this alternative game that goes on in the jury that puts into question in my mind any winners of Survivor.

[00:35:59] Okay do you have a fix?

[00:36:01] What would you do different?

[00:36:03] You know what what what they used to do sequester the jury or don't don't sequester the jury.

[00:36:10] You're telling me at the beginning of the game.

[00:36:12] I got this from Tyson.

[00:36:13] So maybe maybe what did he say?

[00:36:15] He said that you know when he first play they had like you know this buzzer and they would they hit the buzzer whenever anybody started talking game.

[00:36:23] They'd be like you cannot talk about game.

[00:36:25] You cannot discuss.

[00:36:26] I've never heard that before.

[00:36:27] I'm not saying that Tyson is wrong about that.

[00:36:30] And maybe that in Survivor token genes they had they were like particularly strict for whatever reason.

[00:36:36] They were like you know because there's been a lot of over 20 some odd years.

[00:36:40] There's been a lot of different people that like run the Ponderosa ship.

[00:36:43] You know it's not necessarily like it's been you know one specific way.

[00:36:47] So there's probably like some Ponderosas that are more loosey-goosey and some that are more strict.

[00:36:54] Well maybe Tyson it wasn't a vision for the past.

[00:36:57] It was a vision of the ideal future.

[00:36:59] Oh I think they really.

[00:37:00] Tyson was seeing is seeing like.

[00:37:02] Yeah maybe he was.

[00:37:03] He's kind of a clairvoyant guy.

[00:37:04] You know he's had some he's had some good reads out there.

[00:37:08] I think that you need to sequester the jury kind of like in a law court when the when the when the people leave leave the courtroom.

[00:37:15] They're not allowed to talk to each other and they're certainly not allowed to talk about the case.

[00:37:19] So you can talk to each other at Ponderosa.

[00:37:21] I mean that it would be pretty pretty atomized if you couldn't.

[00:37:24] Yeah.

[00:37:25] But like they can't have this like this this meta analysis going on in my opinion.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] That's a way to.

[00:37:32] I get that.

[00:37:32] I think in a perfect world I think that that's how you would do it.

[00:37:35] You know I heard Jeff talk about this on the on fire podcast and I thought this made some sense of that.

[00:37:40] Jeff said that it would be cruel to not let the players talk to each other after they get out of the game.

[00:37:47] That's part of the healing process of that they're back and reintegrated with the players that they were in the game with.

[00:37:55] How would you feel about that?

[00:37:57] You know I came out of the game of Survivor and I didn't talk to anyone I played with for three to four months.

[00:38:03] Yeah.

[00:38:03] You know I sell a typical.

[00:38:06] No I am for sure.

[00:38:08] But one of the things they'll always tell you is that like oh like you're like co you know you're you're co bonded with these people.

[00:38:14] I forget the word but like you are like imbricated with them and they're the only people that are going to understand your experience and you're going to fly out to see them every weekend.

[00:38:22] And like you guys are like going to talk to each other every day on the phone.

[00:38:25] And I was like oh that sounds really weird.

[00:38:29] Like that sounds really unhealthy.

[00:38:30] You know and it's like it is going back to Ponderosa and having like a week long celebration of why you lost the game and like hyper diagnosing it with these other people that are about to leave and you're going to have to chase around the country.

[00:38:43] Is that the healthy way to process Survivor?

[00:38:46] I don't know.

[00:38:47] I mean there's certainly no you know there's no empirical data on other approaches.

[00:38:51] So I'm not I'm not convinced necessarily about this Jeff's argument.

[00:38:55] But even still I mean I hate to say it we've got a television show to produce.

[00:38:59] Like you guys can talk about the game and break it down but but no talking about the winner.

[00:39:03] No talking about who should win.

[00:39:04] No talking about no no advocacy as little as possible as my is my sense.

[00:39:10] Yeah I agree with that.

[00:39:11] I think that they should you know that as much as possible.

[00:39:14] I know people are going to sneak away but you know I don't know how much you know actual like game talk is going if it's like constant or if it's like here or there.

[00:39:25] But yeah I think that they should probably you know try to cut that back if they can.

[00:39:31] And it's like people are like oh it couldn't be done.

[00:39:33] Like what are you talking about?

[00:39:34] You spend a week at Ponderosa not speaking to each other at all beforehand.

[00:39:37] It could easily it could easily be done.

[00:39:39] You it's already proof of concept.

[00:39:42] But anyways that's that's that's my gripe about the jury.

[00:39:45] And I forget I forget how we got on to this.

[00:39:48] So is the only way to then navigate that is to make sure you go to the end with the goatiest goats that you can.

[00:40:00] Honestly probably or the alternative is to go with a really tight group that has played an insular game together.

[00:40:08] Right.

[00:40:08] Because then you know the people the people on the jury don't really have a stake in the decision.

[00:40:15] Like they just got they just got dominated.

[00:40:17] It's got whipped.

[00:40:17] Yeah.

[00:40:17] You know so you're going to the end with with with a tight group that they you know that that kind of factors don't go into play with.

[00:40:24] That's something that I was counting on out there Rob.

[00:40:26] I mean I was respect kind of the opposite of a lot of these these these nerds.

[00:40:30] I was respected but I wasn't liked like I I was respected enough on a game with that.

[00:40:37] We got what's up.

[00:40:38] You can win with that.

[00:40:39] No absolutely.

[00:40:40] Absolutely.

[00:40:41] But I knew that it meant that like you know like I really had some distance from these people's like narrative storylines and like it didn't really you know it didn't really affect them if I had won.

[00:40:52] And that could be like a you know plus or it could be a con.

[00:40:56] But yeah I had I had something with the jury that is kind of escaping me that people have been saying recently that it's just not true.

[00:41:03] And it's what do you what do you think Rob what do you think about this idea of like the last minute reveal.

[00:41:11] You know that like you could and it came into play here.

[00:41:13] I mean Andy got nervous about and he spilled the beans and then he got cut which I don't think is what really happened but we can talk about it.

[00:41:20] What do you think of the this last minute reveal.

[00:41:22] Is this effective.

[00:41:23] Is this is this is this a pipe dream.

[00:41:25] The what do you mean the last minute reveal.

[00:41:28] Like the idea that you could play this covert undercover game that you know.

[00:41:31] Oh no you say at the final tribal council that Andy is going to then you know unmask at the final tribal council.

[00:41:38] I mean look you've been a juror in the new era.

[00:41:41] I think it is not enough time in that final tribal council to be able to explain things.

[00:41:47] And I think that also that if it does not line up with people's perceptions of like wait and what are you talking like that's that's not what happened.

[00:41:55] And that's not how I experience things and even if you know Andy's version of events might be true or at least true from Andy's perspective as far as his confessionals back that up.

[00:42:06] Like I there might not be enough time and I kind of think that you have to be able to like breadcrumb these jurors a little bit but maybe Andy did too much.

[00:42:18] Oh yeah I mean maybe he did too much for sure and maybe it would have been effective.

[00:42:23] But like from my perspective the thing about like the final tribal council is that you offer every person like a little bit of wiggle room.

[00:42:29] Right like oh maybe I'm misestimating you in this way.

[00:42:33] Like maybe you weren't just athletic or maybe you know maybe you did have a social game to back up your strategy.

[00:42:38] Like I'm willing to I'm willing to explore certain areas that I've already like you know I've stereotyped your game and there are certain areas where I'm willing to give you a little bit of give.

[00:42:46] But those areas are contingent on what I already understand about you.

[00:42:48] If you want to go into final tribal council and really explode the stereotype you know every every way being like I was different than you thought.

[00:42:56] The only way you can do that is if they feel they they don't know anything about you kind of like Christy on what Survivor Australia.

[00:43:03] Yes I bet.

[00:43:05] Nobody knew anything about it.

[00:43:06] Andy referenced her in the exit interview too.

[00:43:08] But misguidedly because for her they had no stereotype.

[00:43:12] They were like who is this enigma?

[00:43:14] And so then she could you know she could say anything.

[00:43:16] Andy in contrast.

[00:43:17] She seems pretty excited and believable.

[00:43:21] What do you mean?

[00:43:23] She just like had a lot of energy about I did this and I did this and I did this.

[00:43:28] Oh yeah exactly.

[00:43:30] Let her cook.

[00:43:31] The thing for Andy is that everybody knows him already.

[00:43:34] He's already got the stereotype right.

[00:43:36] He can't like everyone has seen this this you know day one on the beach or day on day three.

[00:43:41] You can't come into Final Tribal like that and just rewrite history and rewrite what people know about you.

[00:43:46] You have to start that earlier and that's why you know people like Jake I think Jake's got a lot of props you know for for really realizing the theater of the new era on a way that nobody else did.

[00:43:55] Yeah theater kid.

[00:43:56] I mean it was part of his moves.

[00:43:57] He was like we can't tell D because it needs to be theatrical.

[00:43:59] Like wow that's kind of like a game-changing realization you know for somebody to actually say like the presentation is everything.

[00:44:05] But that's why fire making has become so like important because it's this last chance to reset your stereotype you know to change your image a little bit even if the move is totally inconsequential.

[00:44:16] You said about Andy that you're not sure that him revealing too much to Rachel was what ultimately happened to him.

[00:44:26] Yeah I am not sure.

[00:44:28] What do you think is an alternative theory?

[00:44:33] So the last last night's episode I really good episode.

[00:44:37] I really like this season.

[00:44:37] I think it's the best season of the new era but better than your own season.

[00:44:41] I do.

[00:44:42] I think it's better than my own season.

[00:44:43] I think my season is the second best because I think that 46 despite big flashy moves never came together narratively like it never really cohered to anything.

[00:44:52] But I think this season is probably better than my season.

[00:44:55] Will you be kicked out of the 45 group chat for publicly saying that 47 is a better season?

[00:45:02] Well I don't know.

[00:45:03] You know I probably will.

[00:45:06] Or is there a new group chat started today that's called 45 minus Drew?

[00:45:12] Maybe I'm trying to play for like you know 15.

[00:45:14] I'm like trying to get into the 47 group chat.

[00:45:16] I'm like bring me in.

[00:45:17] It's the honorary 19th.

[00:45:18] The alternate.

[00:45:19] Who knows?

[00:45:21] There's layers to my machinations.

[00:45:23] It's pretty good.

[00:45:24] But probably I just think it's a slightly better season.

[00:45:28] But one of the things this season has done really well and it was on prime display during this episode is these amazing emotional conversations that are so expressive.

[00:45:37] Right?

[00:45:37] Like editing is on point.

[00:45:39] I mean watching Survivor 47 editing wise is a tour de force.

[00:45:42] I mean you're watching like an Oscar winner because you have the back to back of Sam and Rachel having this really honest you know or at least on Sam's part like face to face about like this was a misconnection.

[00:45:53] It's never going to work like I'm sorry.

[00:45:55] And Rachel's crying but she's faking it.

[00:45:57] And then in contrast so expressive but she's faking it.

[00:46:01] And then in contrast you have this interaction with Teenie and Genevieve which was really like chef's kiss.

[00:46:05] I mean like Genevieve is so shocked that she just admits it openly and like I'm a sitting duck and Teenie's like face of shame looking down.

[00:46:13] I mean it was so it was so poignant.

[00:46:15] And then there was kind of like a re-acknowledgement of these relationships at Final Tribal.

[00:46:18] But you know whose relationship was never acknowledged?

[00:46:20] Andy's.

[00:46:22] Andy's ostensibly sitting there on the beach.

[00:46:23] He's one of the boys but he never speaks.

[00:46:26] You know he's just you just you know assume he's there somewhere behind the camera.

[00:46:29] When Andy you know talks at Tribal Council about his relationship with Rachel whereas it's taken seriously with Sam.

[00:46:35] It's taken you know with Genevieve and Teenie is taken seriously.

[00:46:39] And he's kind of gets gets laughs from the jury.

[00:46:42] And like they show the laughs from the jury.

[00:46:43] So you're kind of meant to like wander a little bit.

[00:46:46] You know what I see this Andy Rachel interaction boiling down to is kind of resentment.

[00:46:53] I see Andy being very confident about you know the kind of game he's played and he's taken out Rachel and he's like it's okay you're super you're the most important person to me.

[00:47:04] And that that's that's annoying Rachel.

[00:47:06] I mean Rachel thinks she can beat both Sam and Andy.

[00:47:08] She's probably a lot more annoyed by Andy's approach than she is by Sam's.

[00:47:12] But then additionally Andy tells Rachel oh you're the most important person out here to me.

[00:47:17] Okay that's exactly who I want as a juror rather than Sam who doesn't even really like me.

[00:47:22] If Andy's the most important person to me and he's a goat I can beat anyways.

[00:47:26] Yeah screw him out you go you know.

[00:47:29] So how strategic was it?

[00:47:30] I don't know.

[00:47:31] There's a there's a real attempt right now in the edit and probably maybe because it's true to like pump Andy up.

[00:47:36] Andy is the strategic beast.

[00:47:38] Andy needs to get taken out because he's a strategic threat.

[00:47:40] But Rachel's reasons for taking out Andy are very vague.

[00:47:44] Yeah like oh maybe he's somebody where Sam is like a good this good at this this this and he'll be bad for this this this.

[00:47:50] And he's like I don't know.

[00:47:52] So I think that's probably what happened.

[00:47:54] Yeah that's super interesting.

[00:47:55] So I just want to make sure that I'm understanding what you're saying that Rachel taking out Andy is a little bit more like Tony taking out Trish of like okay this is going to be somebody who is going to be a vote for me on the jury.

[00:48:09] Somebody that has seen my game that has that can understand my game and probably won't like as a super fan of the game isn't going to vote for teeny or sue.

[00:48:19] Well that's the first part of it and the second part is that I think that Andy kind of went about it a little clunkily.

[00:48:25] Yeah it seemed like it seemed like Rachel was annoyed by his approach.

[00:48:30] I think so too.

[00:48:30] I think a little bit.

[00:48:31] You know relationship with her were not taken seriously by her and by the jury.

[00:48:36] So it seems like maybe there would have been some friction there.

[00:48:39] But I think that's probably why Andy got taken out.

[00:48:41] It'd be interesting to hear Rachel's you know side eventually.

[00:48:44] Yeah.

[00:48:44] She gets to sit down for these long conversations.

[00:48:46] But this episode of Rob is a podcast is sponsored by Amazfit makers of the T-Rex 3 smartwatch.

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[00:50:25] Drew, a lot of discussion on the internets this past couple days over Rachel.

[00:50:33] Rachel and it has varied from anywhere from Dama Bate has called her the best player of all time.

[00:50:40] Oh, I saw that.

[00:50:42] Yes.

[00:50:42] I think they're friends in real life though.

[00:50:44] I think he's just gasping up.

[00:50:45] They are.

[00:50:46] They are.

[00:50:46] They're in like some, I think they started playing online poker together during the pandemic.

[00:50:50] And so there's a fondness there.

[00:50:54] Others have sort of been poo-pooing Rachel and where she's at.

[00:50:58] What's been your sober assessment of Rachel as a player this season and potential winner?

[00:51:06] What do I think of Rachel?

[00:51:07] No holds barred.

[00:51:08] What do you like, what do you got to watch out for if she's on 50?

[00:51:13] Rachel is kind of a weird player.

[00:51:15] And I think Rachel and Genevieve are both like, you know, the titans of the season.

[00:51:18] And they're both weird for different reasons, but Rachel is like a master of the little moves,

[00:51:23] right?

[00:51:23] Like she makes all these like small little opportune calculations that are just so perfect

[00:51:28] that are so like, you know, neat and tidy, like going and slipping down on the beach to

[00:51:32] listen to the conversation.

[00:51:33] Great heads up game awareness, you know, the ability to do that.

[00:51:36] So smart.

[00:51:37] And then on the really big level, Rachel's great.

[00:51:40] I mean, finding all the advantages, deploying them correctly.

[00:51:43] She's a master of these little things and she's highly competent in these big things.

[00:51:46] I mean, certainly we had a season of failure.

[00:51:49] So the big things are not easy to do.

[00:51:50] And yet somehow the sum of the parts is a little bit less than it should be on paper,

[00:51:57] right?

[00:51:58] If like you're a master at the little things and the big things, you should just be the

[00:52:01] goat.

[00:52:01] Like you should run the game.

[00:52:03] And yet Rachel is constantly being left out of votes.

[00:52:06] You know, there are constantly like cross wires in the social game.

[00:52:09] There are like little strategic things that don't work out her way.

[00:52:12] And it's kind of baffling because it's like, how do you have someone this good who, you

[00:52:16] know, is like on 50% of the votes?

[00:52:18] And so I just feel like there's some kind of like disconnect with applying all of these

[00:52:22] things that she's really, really good at to the game.

[00:52:25] I mean, like, why, why is that?

[00:52:27] You know, like if, if she's truly like as good socially as it seems to me, like, why

[00:52:31] is she falling through the cracks?

[00:52:32] I think it could be kind of like a Caleb situation of my season where somebody is just so, it's

[00:52:38] so like transparent, transparently, you know, possessing these qualities and possesses them

[00:52:44] in maybe in a way that's not reassuring.

[00:52:46] That's very forthright.

[00:52:48] Then it's kind of really easy to target that.

[00:52:50] Yeah.

[00:52:51] And so like, if we see all these great things about Rachel and Rachel really is this great

[00:52:55] because I think she is everyone else sees it too.

[00:52:58] So, and so these little subtle moves are not like subtle at all.

[00:53:01] In fact, actually, they're kind of like rubbing in your face and like, oh, I'm a professional.

[00:53:04] I'm a specialist.

[00:53:05] Yeah.

[00:53:06] That's a really interesting way to have put it.

[00:53:09] I'm glad you brought Caleb into this because you started talking about Genevieve and Rachel.

[00:53:15] I think that Caleb, the Caleb idea applies more in terms of Genevieve and not just as they're

[00:53:21] both Canadians, but I feel like that they seem both of them, Caleb and Genevieve, like such

[00:53:27] like a polished package of like, oh, they have it all.

[00:53:33] And like, I think that there's like a little bit more of a, like, and you know, for, for

[00:53:40] some different reasons, I think that, you know, uh, that Caleb's charm is like, uh, you

[00:53:46] know, very, you know, noticeable to anybody that like encounters him.

[00:53:51] Uh, I think the Genevieve has that a little bit, but also then has, you know, uh, bouts

[00:53:55] of lacks of confidence, but then also like is very capable in all sorts of way.

[00:54:00] So I think that Genevieve and Caleb is a little bit of a better one-to-one, but for Rachel

[00:54:05] that I almost feel like that she is, uh, not quite a Caleb in that.

[00:54:10] I don't think that Rachel is somebody who pops.

[00:54:13] Uh, like I don't, I doubt that there were a lot of people.

[00:54:16] And if you go back to the preseason who were really paying attention to Rachel as being

[00:54:22] a person to watch out for, but I love what you said about Rachel being the master of the

[00:54:27] little moves.

[00:54:28] And I wonder if that like the little moves that she has made, like ended up being noticeable

[00:54:34] enough to people where people were sort of like, okay, watch out for her.

[00:54:39] Uh, I think that something that I'd love to talk to Rachel about this was when she tried

[00:54:43] to steal the rice and got busted that I wonder if that was a thing that really put her out

[00:54:49] there in a lot of people's minds of like, Ooh, that was, that was sneaky.

[00:54:53] That was a good idea.

[00:54:54] Look what she can do.

[00:54:56] Yeah, for sure.

[00:54:57] I mean, it wasn't, and you know, there are a lot of like little, you know, interactions

[00:55:00] and challenges like that, that people are funny.

[00:55:02] I don't know how serious they're taken, but I'm sure that, that like at least, you know,

[00:55:05] put her on the radar, um, winning that, that rock thing to, you know, get the advantage

[00:55:10] compared to, um, the other two.

[00:55:12] I'm sure that net is kind of like heightening the profile.

[00:55:15] Um, and she got clocked by the Genevieve's of the world who were like, okay, that's, that's

[00:55:21] the kind of person that we're watching out for.

[00:55:23] I think the Caroline also was, uh, you know, another shark on this season who sort of like

[00:55:29] a clock that, okay.

[00:55:30] That Rachel is somebody to watch out for, but I feel like that Rachel was sort of like,

[00:55:35] uh, a, like an antithesis of a, of a Caleb type in that she seems so, you know, plain

[00:55:43] and somebody who is not the biggest personality and that it felt like that that was great camouflage

[00:55:50] for her.

[00:55:51] I think that she had been very concerned about her threat level throughout the game.

[00:55:56] It just so happened that, you know, she ended up having to do so many things that, you know,

[00:56:01] then her threat level just has kept escalating.

[00:56:03] And I've been very impressed with the way she's been having to tap dance through this

[00:56:07] post merge to get to this position.

[00:56:10] Well, there is a way in which playing from the bottom is easier than playing from the

[00:56:15] top.

[00:56:15] For sure.

[00:56:15] Because when you're playing for the bottom, you've got like two options and it's really

[00:56:19] clear what they are.

[00:56:20] And you can, you can just, you know, go head first for them.

[00:56:23] Whereas playing for the top is a little bit vaguer.

[00:56:25] I mean, there's an infinity of options.

[00:56:26] It's really hard to know what to do.

[00:56:29] And when I say Rachel's kind of like Caleb, I don't mean that like they have the same

[00:56:32] personality, you know, every, you have the same drive to be liked by them.

[00:56:37] Like that you do for Caleb.

[00:56:38] You really want Caleb to like you.

[00:56:39] It seems like Genevieve probably is the same way with teeny.

[00:56:43] What I mean is that not being able to control people's perception of you and not being able

[00:56:48] to like hold cars close to your chest about what you're good at is a, is a detriment to

[00:56:52] your game is a flaw in your game.

[00:56:53] Uh, and when Rachel walks into the merge being extremely relatively unassuming, right?

[00:56:59] She's not like this big, like outspoken character, even in confessionals, she's very low key.

[00:57:03] But when Genevieve, Caroline, Sam all immediately clocked out about you and you're like, you know,

[00:57:10] under the radar, you're not, you're not under the radar.

[00:57:12] I mean, it's a flaw.

[00:57:13] Drew, another thing about Rachel and, you know, I saw this a little bit in the pre-merge that she

[00:57:19] was on a lot of those puzzles in the first, uh, half of the season in the pre-merge.

[00:57:24] And I think it was also noticed by people how good Rachel is at doing the puzzles.

[00:57:30] So I think that that might've also been something that was on people's minds where people who are

[00:57:34] out there looking for, all right, who are the threats?

[00:57:36] I think that that was something else that put Rachel out there on their radar.

[00:57:40] That's really astute.

[00:57:41] I think that apps, I didn't notice that, but that, that absolutely played a play, um, played

[00:57:45] a role.

[00:57:46] Um, and yeah, I think it's been very impressive for her.

[00:57:50] And, you know, going back to what you said about playing from the bottom, like there's

[00:57:53] two, there's two, uh, people types of people that are on the bottom.

[00:57:57] There are the people that are on the bottom who are, everybody is trying to get out.

[00:58:01] And there are the people that are at the bottom that nobody is trying to get out.

[00:58:05] And Rachel, I think has had like this incredibly hard degree of difficulty to what she's been

[00:58:11] having to have to do because she's been like at on the bottom at times and everybody is targeting

[00:58:17] her.

[00:58:18] Yeah, totally.

[00:58:20] I mean, like Rachel, like is, is between a rock and a hard place, like every day since

[00:58:24] like week three.

[00:58:25] So like major credit has to go to her for playing that.

[00:58:28] Like Mike, um, Mike Holloway, Holloway, Mike Holloway style game really hard.

[00:58:35] I certainly couldn't do it.

[00:58:36] Um, and then like, you know, as you'll talk to her, I think a lot of like physical training

[00:58:39] went into that.

[00:58:40] Um, and maybe she mentioned this pregame that like she, you know, had been hitting the

[00:58:43] gym prepping for literally a year.

[00:58:45] So it's, it's very well deserved.

[00:58:47] Yeah.

[00:58:48] Um, no, can I ask you, so go, just go back to Rachel and I feel stupid for not bringing

[00:58:53] this up earlier that she was an alternate on your season, right?

[00:58:56] Was she at Ponderosa with you guys?

[00:58:58] No, I think TYH was the, or Tiana was the alternate.

[00:59:03] Oh, I think she was an alternate for 46.

[00:59:06] Okay.

[00:59:08] Um, so I, I don't know anything about that.

[00:59:10] I know that she was an alternate with somebody who's on 48.

[00:59:13] Um, that has kind of been like, you know, implicitly released or whatever on Twitter.

[00:59:18] Yeah.

[00:59:19] Um, so I didn't have, I didn't know anything for Rachel.

[00:59:21] Obviously you do have kind of a bond with your, your alternate though.

[00:59:24] Cause they're like, you know, they're the also ran, they were there.

[00:59:26] Um, so like Tiana, you know, I, I know a lot of people like we're rooting for her for my

[00:59:30] season.

[00:59:31] Um, but there's an advantage to being the alternate.

[00:59:34] There's a big advantage.

[00:59:35] I mean, it's time to like, it's time to start targeting the alternates because they know how

[00:59:40] to prep for, um, Ponderosa.

[00:59:41] They have connections with people who have already played so they can kind of get the inside

[00:59:45] scoop.

[00:59:45] I mean, I don't know if Tiana did, but I bet Rachel and Tiana and never, neither of them

[00:59:50] had said that they were alternates.

[00:59:53] It's a good point.

[00:59:54] It's a good point that I don't know that.

[00:59:57] Yeah.

[00:59:57] Well, yeah, I guess there's no way to suss it out.

[01:00:01] And Austin, he was an alternate, uh, but he had not been to Fiji previously.

[01:00:05] He was an alternate who got the rare alternate who gets through.

[01:00:08] Yeah.

[01:00:09] Um, that's true.

[01:00:11] He got pulled up.

[01:00:12] Uh, I don't know how you target the alternates.

[01:00:14] I guess it would be impossible short of a, short of a break.

[01:00:16] Maybe like on the first day of Ponderosa, like, Hey, do you know where the water fountain

[01:00:20] is?

[01:00:21] And it's like, how did they know?

[01:00:22] Yeah.

[01:00:23] They knew.

[01:00:24] They know.

[01:00:24] Look, they're not lost.

[01:00:26] They know their way around here.

[01:00:28] Yeah.

[01:00:29] Suspicious.

[01:00:30] Wow.

[01:00:30] It adds a new layer to it.

[01:00:31] Um, but I would also target anybody who's really close with like former players, you

[01:00:44] Kane.

[01:00:45] Yeah.

[01:00:46] For survivor 44.

[01:00:48] Oh, like if you know Kane, like if you're Bruce.

[01:00:51] Yeah.

[01:00:52] He dropped all the survivors he knew.

[01:00:56] Yeah.

[01:00:56] I don't know why they clowned on him for that.

[01:00:58] Like, of course he knows, you know, what are you talking about?

[01:01:01] Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a huge advantage.

[01:01:04] Um, is that, that's what Emily was saying.

[01:01:07] Oh, and she was right at the time.

[01:01:09] I was like, ah, wasn't, you know, once you're out here for a few days, he was, he was out

[01:01:13] here for like eight hours.

[01:01:14] He doesn't know anything.

[01:01:15] Not true.

[01:01:16] Playing survivor again is a huge advantage.

[01:01:18] You know what to look for in so many different towels, you know, how production works.

[01:01:22] Um, I mean, it's a big play and even the alternate gets some of that information.

[01:01:25] So I wonder how effective it was, you know, for Rachel, at least at the beginning to kind

[01:01:28] of like orient herself.

[01:01:30] I want to ask you about the Tuku Alliance.

[01:01:32] And it seemed like there was a point in the season where it looked like to us, all right,

[01:01:37] here we go.

[01:01:38] Tuku steamroll.

[01:01:39] Here it comes.

[01:01:40] They just watched survivor 45.

[01:01:42] This is the new read before and Tuku, Gabe, Sue, Caroline, Kyle, they're about to run the

[01:01:50] table.

[01:01:50] It didn't happen.

[01:01:52] Did they blow it?

[01:01:55] They, they totally blew it.

[01:01:56] It was embarrassing too, because they were basically the read before.

[01:01:59] I mean, you had at eight, you had four people in your Alliance and then you had one

[01:02:03] person who had no choice, but to work with you.

[01:02:06] Right.

[01:02:07] Emily, the viewer slash Genevieve.

[01:02:09] So they had it, they had it and they screwed it up for, I think, really interesting reasons.

[01:02:14] A total blow.

[01:02:15] I mean, but look, we're like the final four and they're not around anymore and they have

[01:02:19] been around.

[01:02:20] Only Sue.

[01:02:21] Yeah.

[01:02:21] Yeah.

[01:02:21] Well, so Sue's hanging on there.

[01:02:23] She's just been forgotten.

[01:02:24] She's lingering around the Island, you know, pacing back and forth, um, you know, out

[01:02:30] of date.

[01:02:31] And I think, I think it speaks to kind of the, like viscosity or like the inertia,

[01:02:35] the staying power of, of what I'll call like the public.

[01:02:40] Um, when like Genevieve's idol, let's use that as a test case.

[01:02:44] If Genevieve were to go to Rachel and say, I have this idol or Sue, I have this idol.

[01:02:49] Nobody would believe her.

[01:02:50] Right.

[01:02:50] But when Taney comes from Genevieve to say Genevieve has an idol, it's true.

[01:02:55] Right.

[01:02:56] Facts take on like this additional authority or like vibes take on this additional authority

[01:03:01] when conveyed like second or third hand, because they become part of the public.

[01:03:05] They become part of the rumors and really good survivor players kind of slowly, like

[01:03:09] Genevieve with teeny kind of slowly and tassily control like the rumors in the discourse.

[01:03:13] It's like very subtle way to affect your moves.

[01:03:16] That really does work.

[01:03:17] Um, the point is though, is that this public doesn't actually matter.

[01:03:21] People play the game based on these public vibes, but they are inconsequential.

[01:03:26] Right.

[01:03:27] Um, and so when you're like Gabe, when you're, when you're Caroline, when you're, when you're

[01:03:32] Kyle, you just have to look together and say, well, wait a second, we just go on the public.

[01:03:36] You know, we don't need to pay attention to the public.

[01:03:38] We don't need to pay attention to the fact that everyone's targeting us.

[01:03:40] We have the numbers to make it such that it doesn't matter, but they didn't, they kind

[01:03:44] of cave to it.

[01:03:44] And it was really interesting because if they had just ignored what the vibes were, you know,

[01:03:49] like the kind of current of the game, they would have cruised through to probably at least

[01:03:53] the final six before Gabe got sniped by Caroline.

[01:03:55] So it was unfortunate.

[01:03:57] And it kind of speaks to the fact there are a lot of different levels to play the game

[01:04:00] of survivor.

[01:04:01] There's the narrative level, which people get caught in, um, because it's TV and you're

[01:04:04] going to see yourself and you know, it's supposed to be this journey of self-discovery.

[01:04:08] There's like the kind of like the public level, which is like, that's how the jury is

[01:04:12] deciding.

[01:04:12] That's how I need to pay attention to.

[01:04:14] But then there are kind of like the brute factual realities of the game and realities of the

[01:04:18] numbers.

[01:04:19] And if like, this was like a tribe of like, you know, chimpanzees, what would the higher

[01:04:22] power structure be?

[01:04:24] Uh, and that's the level that you really need to pay attention to for like kind of the,

[01:04:28] the micro moves of the merge.

[01:04:30] Uh, and they ignored it.

[01:04:31] That's my assessment.

[01:04:32] Wow.

[01:04:32] I've never heard the chimpanzee level of survivor.

[01:04:36] Oh yeah.

[01:04:37] You got to get on this, Rob.

[01:04:38] You got to get on this.

[01:04:40] See, I would read all about the chimpanzee level of survivor.

[01:04:43] I feel like that was like the old era, but you think it's alive in the new era?

[01:04:47] Oh, it's not an issue of like, you know, it's not an issue of like, are we going to go back

[01:04:51] to like the primitive, you know, the thing, are we going to be cavemen?

[01:04:55] It's, it's like a, it's a biological thing.

[01:04:57] You know, we are mammals.

[01:04:59] We, you know, anthropologically we exist on, you know, like simian power structures.

[01:05:04] And the thing about eight power structures is that they're constantly contested.

[01:05:07] They're contestants by violence.

[01:05:09] They're contested by shows of force.

[01:05:10] But once they form, they're extremely durable.

[01:05:13] You know, everyone has an intuitive sense of what the power structure is and they're forced

[01:05:17] to either respect it or overthrow it.

[01:05:19] Um, and so basically I, I, what I'm arguing here is there's kind of like a mismatch between

[01:05:26] this, like, um, the, the, this very human sense of, oh, here's what the social group is

[01:05:32] saying.

[01:05:32] And like, here's how we need to interact.

[01:05:34] And the kind of more fundamental recognition that like, we have numbers, we have strength,

[01:05:38] we have power that nothing else matters.

[01:05:40] Yeah.

[01:05:42] Uh, people might think that this sounds a little, uh, off the wall, what you're saying, but,

[01:05:47] uh, I feel like that, you know, I think that this speaks to the true nature of survivor.

[01:05:52] And I think that why it's been such an, uh, enduring concept where over 24 years that people

[01:05:58] really resonate with this format because that there is like this big part of this, that's

[01:06:03] like innate in us, like not just being voted out of the tribe, but also this idea of, you

[01:06:10] know, like seeking power in like, okay.

[01:06:14] Keeping allies around and, you know, sticking with my voting structure and trying to overthrow

[01:06:20] something that isn't working for us or somebody who thinks they're in power and we're going to

[01:06:24] overthrow them with our votes put together.

[01:06:27] Like that's fun, you know, really how we got to this point in the first place.

[01:06:33] Totally.

[01:06:33] And I'll, I'll even take it a step farther, Rob.

[01:06:35] It sounds like, it sounds like maybe I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sounding like a loony.

[01:06:39] So you tell me if I am and I can, I can rescue myself, but, uh, there's been a lot of anthropological

[01:06:44] research about this idea of the scapegoat, right?

[01:06:47] Okay.

[01:06:48] And these people, these, these, these thinkers, they argue and it's taken very seriously, um,

[01:06:53] that societies form through scapegoating somebody who was outside the society.

[01:06:57] And that when you make that boundary, when you make that line between us and them,

[01:07:01] then it allows for us to really obtain cohesion.

[01:07:04] And so the origin of society is the scapegoating of somebody who's outside of society.

[01:07:08] Um, and like, that's messy.

[01:07:09] That's really ugly.

[01:07:10] I hope that isn't true, but I will tell you when I watch survivor, a lot of times tight

[01:07:14] alliances form because they find somebody to put outside the alliance and to like, you

[01:07:19] know, to demonize.

[01:07:20] And I think if you were, if you are a really savvy survivor player, you recognize, you know,

[01:07:26] you recognize a scapegoat when you see one and that that's kind of a way to like, to

[01:07:30] build groups.

[01:07:31] The trouble with Tuku is that the scapegoat was inside the group.

[01:07:34] Um, so like in Kyle, Kyle, yeah.

[01:07:37] Yeah.

[01:07:38] Kyle's the scapegoat that causes you to form your thing.

[01:07:40] Kyle and TK.

[01:07:41] Well, you've brought them along.

[01:07:43] So it really weakens the integrity of your group.

[01:07:45] Um, and the other problem is that then, you know, the audience ends up becoming very like

[01:07:50] sympathetic to the person who you're scapegoating.

[01:07:53] And then you end up having a very unfavorable edit in terms of like the television show that

[01:07:58] people are watching at home.

[01:07:59] So you feel like you're like, okay, I like, uh, like I'm, I'm crushing it.

[01:08:03] I'm killing this thing.

[01:08:03] Uh, and then ultimately people like, we hate you.

[01:08:06] Well, is that, is that like, unless you win, is that true though?

[01:08:11] Because like, let's, let's go back in the day.

[01:08:13] Like, like one world, what was her name?

[01:08:15] Christina.

[01:08:16] Yeah.

[01:08:16] Total scapegoat was, was bullied the whole season.

[01:08:18] You know, even on season 40, even on the dynamic on season 40, unlike edge of extinction,

[01:08:23] there was major scapegoating.

[01:08:24] Yeah.

[01:08:24] Right.

[01:08:25] Typically the edit just doesn't, you know, hides this fact, hides this fact.

[01:08:28] That's how games are played.

[01:08:29] Now recently, um, the survivor editors, I think have really made an effort to be very fair.

[01:08:34] You know, they want to portray people as they were things, how they happened.

[01:08:36] They don't want to do like the Franken cuts or whatever.

[01:08:38] Um, I certainly felt like season 45 was very accurate in its portrayals.

[01:08:43] Um, with the exception of Bruce, but even Bruce there, that was a scapegoat.

[01:08:47] So they're, they're giving a lot of more, um, the editing should have been shown, uh,

[01:08:51] more positively.

[01:08:53] Say again, you think that Bruce was, uh, should have been shown and depicted more positively.

[01:08:59] I think that Bruce's initial tribe really hated him.

[01:09:02] Uh, and I think that a lot of us who met him at the merge had no issue with Bruce.

[01:09:05] Yeah.

[01:09:06] We thought he was a really nice guy.

[01:09:07] Um, but they kind of just stuck to that initial narrative.

[01:09:10] Um, and so I felt badly for him.

[01:09:11] Yeah.

[01:09:12] Um, but other than that, very accurate editing season.

[01:09:15] So the edit likes to, likes to kind of aid these underdogs.

[01:09:18] Likes to kind of like show like, Oh, you know, Jake and Carolyn and, and Ben, like, they're

[01:09:22] really good people.

[01:09:22] And like, they should be in it even if they're not, you know, our teeny.

[01:09:26] Um, but it's not, it's not factual.

[01:09:28] And like back in the day, you know, you would have just dunked on them.

[01:09:32] Yeah.

[01:09:33] Anyways, to stay with Tuku for a minute.

[01:09:36] Okay.

[01:09:36] It was kind of a hard situation where, uh, for whatever reason, Kyle, who was at the

[01:09:41] bottom of Tuku felt like, okay, this is my turn.

[01:09:44] I need to take out Gabe.

[01:09:46] Uh, at the same time, Caroline also seemed to jump ship.

[01:09:51] I think what we don't know is did Caroline read where the numbers were going and then

[01:09:57] jump on board with that?

[01:09:58] Or did Carol, Caroline simultaneously make the same move that Gabe, uh, that Kyle was

[01:10:05] making to go after Gabe.

[01:10:08] Oh, I, I think for sure the latter.

[01:10:10] Like, I think it was a, you know, a combined group that everyone except for, you know, Sue

[01:10:15] realized like, Oh, we have to turn on each other.

[01:10:16] We have to acknowledge the fact that everyone's looking at us.

[01:10:19] Um, but they didn't.

[01:10:21] And so it was unfortunate.

[01:10:22] I think that if, if the group, if three of the four people had held firm, like if you

[01:10:26] just gotten Kyle and Gabe together and be like, we don't need them, that would have

[01:10:29] happened.

[01:10:29] That would have been very attainable.

[01:10:30] Sue was already on board.

[01:10:31] Is Caroline going to jump ship after that?

[01:10:34] Is, is Genevieve going to jump ship when they're.

[01:10:37] The, the group of three doesn't like her, doesn't want to work with her, doesn't trust

[01:10:41] her.

[01:10:42] No.

[01:10:42] Yeah.

[01:10:42] So it was a real miscalculation.

[01:10:44] And I think a lot of people, um, Kyle gave Caroline to come to the pressure simultaneously.

[01:10:49] I will say that I thought that Caroline was set up pretty well and in a good spot to win

[01:10:54] following that.

[01:10:55] And if it was not for the, uh, duplicity of, uh, operation Italy that I feel like that

[01:11:02] Caroline or Rachel winning immunity there.

[01:11:05] I think that Caroline comes out of that pretty good.

[01:11:08] Oh yeah.

[01:11:09] I mean, it's always fun in the season.

[01:11:12] Um, when you have like two players who are the same, so you can just kind of like mark

[01:11:15] them, you know, and you can track how they do differently and say, wow, the advantages

[01:11:18] were really, you know, made a difference on this one.

[01:11:20] Um, and Caroline and Rachel are such similar players.

[01:11:24] I mean, they're such similar players.

[01:11:25] They play the exact same kind of way.

[01:11:27] They have the same demeanor.

[01:11:30] Um, and, uh, Caroline fell short.

[01:11:32] So, you know, like the, the, she was in a great position to win.

[01:11:37] I mean, she had a lot of momentum.

[01:11:38] She had all the, a lot of the soft skills to get there.

[01:11:40] Um, coalition building, maybe even to a degree that Rachel didn't have.

[01:11:44] Um, but Rachel just was clutch and challenges and clutch.

[01:11:47] She clutch on the big stuff, wins immunity, finds advantages.

[01:11:50] And that, that supersedes.

[01:11:52] Are there any other players that you thought were particularly interesting this season?

[01:11:57] Yeah, I think there are three interesting players this season.

[01:12:00] There are some players who are interesting, like as test cases, like, gee, don't, don't

[01:12:04] freaking do that.

[01:12:05] Um, but Genevieve, Rachel and Andy, interesting players, each bringing something a little bit

[01:12:11] new to the table, each with some flaws.

[01:12:13] Uh, I think outside of that, that group, it's worth touching on like Gabe.

[01:12:17] Um, because Gabe was like a, you know, Gabe, Gabe kind of failed.

[01:12:22] Right.

[01:12:23] Gabe kind of reminded me of Tevin in a way that they're like, it's such a big game and

[01:12:26] such like a, you know, perfuming sense of self-confidence.

[01:12:29] Yeah.

[01:12:30] Um, come to absolutely nothing.

[01:12:31] I gave Gabe the, my, I started it after the season, my inaugural Tevin Davis award for

[01:12:40] the best episode of the season was episode one.

[01:12:43] Yeah.

[01:12:44] Gabe was the winner of that.

[01:12:48] He had a good episode one.

[01:12:49] I don't even remember.

[01:12:49] Yeah.

[01:12:50] He was all over the place looking for the idol.

[01:12:52] Oh yeah.

[01:12:53] And then he recovered.

[01:12:54] Yeah.

[01:12:55] It was like, this guy and he was talking about Russell Hance and it was like, okay, he put

[01:13:00] together this Alliance.

[01:13:01] Like, here we go.

[01:13:03] Uh, so Gabe really like, and then the second episode was the TK boot.

[01:13:07] So it really seemed like that Gabe is like maybe the star of the season.

[01:13:12] Well, there's something to be said for endurance, which is that a lot of people can do that at

[01:13:15] the beginning, uh, but can't do that for like 23 days.

[01:13:18] And Russell's was amazing because he could, you know, Russell could go, you know, that

[01:13:22] was just who Russell was.

[01:13:23] He could sleep, walk, and do it.

[01:13:24] Um, but people begin to burn out, you know, Sam's confessionals get a little bit less witty,

[01:13:29] uh, after day, after week one, uh, Gabe as a little bit less aggressive just cause he's,

[01:13:34] he loses steam after the pre merge.

[01:13:37] Um, but Gabe was like, I don't know.

[01:13:40] He just was so obsessed with his vision of how he was going to play and how he was going

[01:13:43] to treat people and where they fit in that he wasn't flexible enough to make it through.

[01:13:46] So it's, it's worth commenting on him.

[01:13:48] Um, Andy, a really interesting player.

[01:13:50] What do you think of Andy Rob?

[01:13:51] I mean, I've known Andy for a long time.

[01:13:54] Andy was a person who had called into the patron shows for, uh, years and years.

[01:14:00] So I have an affinity for Andy for sure.

[01:14:03] I think he was such an interesting player because that he is like a super analytical

[01:14:08] person, but in a way that's, and I think that you are, uh, uh, as well, like, uh, incredibly

[01:14:15] analytical, but also that Andy, I think is like very in touch with his emotions and his

[01:14:21] feelings in a way that I think that typically the really analytical players are not.

[01:14:27] And so I think that Andy, what, uh, is so fascinating about him is that he's like very,

[01:14:33] very feeling, but also at the same time, like, uh, a real like thinker about the game.

[01:14:41] Yes, completely agree.

[01:14:43] Um, I mean, you've, you've hit the nail on the head there with a big part of what I was

[01:14:46] going to say, but I think a lot of people in the fandom or in the comments, whatever

[01:14:50] misunderstand who Andy is as a player.

[01:14:52] Andy is first and foremost, an emotional player, right?

[01:14:55] He's not, he's not actually, he's not actually that analytic.

[01:14:58] I mean, he is analytical for sure, but like the analysis is like super structure.

[01:15:02] Like the analysis is something we like put on the end to like justify our decisions,

[01:15:06] really an emotional player.

[01:15:07] He's playing for recognition.

[01:15:09] He's playing for redemption.

[01:15:10] He's playing because survivor is like the conclusion to his narrative of his, of his twenties and

[01:15:16] thirties.

[01:15:17] And it's going to, it's going to capstone who he is and who he's become.

[01:15:20] And the fact that, you know, he's put himself into a successful position and survivor is going

[01:15:23] to prove all that.

[01:15:24] Um, and then when that, you know, that proof is so jeopardized, like it was at the beginning

[01:15:29] of the game, you really get put into like a survivor flight or flight mentality, not just

[01:15:33] because like, I want to win the game, but like, oh my God, my entire self-perception

[01:15:37] is riding on doing well on survivor.

[01:15:39] I think Andy really put that level of stock into the experience.

[01:15:42] Yeah.

[01:15:42] And so it's interesting that players like subtly clock this and they tell Andy like, oh,

[01:15:46] the jury isn't going to respect you.

[01:15:48] You're not going to be able to get votes.

[01:15:49] You're not going to be able to have played this kind of game.

[01:15:51] And it's like, it's like the driving motivation for him to make moves or to like treat social

[01:15:56] relations that every, at every turn, even though like, maybe it shouldn't be, maybe

[01:16:00] logically he doesn't need to explain to Rachel why she should vote for him.

[01:16:03] Maybe, you know, maybe he doesn't need to do all this stuff.

[01:16:06] I just find that, I find that really fascinating, that insecurity, really fascinating.

[01:16:09] And it's why, it's why I think that like survivors, like some of the, some of the

[01:16:14] casting mission might be a little like, not what I would go for in the sense that like,

[01:16:18] they're looking for like complete people, right?

[01:16:20] We're looking, you know who you are, you're living your life, you know, you're totally

[01:16:23] autonomous.

[01:16:24] But what you really need are people who are like deeply emotionally complex, like Q, like

[01:16:29] Andy, who are not going to behave rationally, who are going to behave emotionally and create

[01:16:34] these fascinating game states.

[01:16:35] I've been thinking about chess recently a little bit, Rob, because it's the world chess

[01:16:38] championships that just ended.

[01:16:40] Yeah.

[01:16:40] Cash one.

[01:16:41] But if you get like two like supercomputers to play chess, the games are very boring because

[01:16:46] the supercomputers will just make the optimal move every time.

[01:16:48] It doesn't matter when, when the machines make a mistake, like when you have them make

[01:16:53] the wrong move, then the games become these amazing, fascinating complications.

[01:16:57] And so like, if we just have like a second chance type thing where it's like, everyone

[01:17:00] is making the optimal move and just like cruises on, you know, it's, it's relatively uninteresting.

[01:17:05] But if you have people like Andy, you have people like Q who are making emotional decision

[01:17:09] making when they don't realize it, when they're not self-aware to it, then it becomes like

[01:17:13] really beautiful.

[01:17:14] And I think that's why the fans in a big way have responded so positively to, um, you

[01:17:18] know, to Andy.

[01:17:19] Yeah.

[01:17:19] That's really well put.

[01:17:21] How do you screen for that?

[01:17:23] Oh, I mean, they, they have like all, oh yeah.

[01:17:25] What are you looking for?

[01:17:27] Like what to find that?

[01:17:29] They have all these psychological tests and that they can go through and it comes through

[01:17:33] in like the interviews, especially like, I think I'm kind of that same, that same archetype.

[01:17:38] I also went out in six to Q and Andy, but like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a complicated

[01:17:42] guy.

[01:17:43] Yeah.

[01:17:44] And some people are very, some people are very smooth.

[01:17:47] A lot of people play survivor, like, you know, pretty single-minded, pretty, pretty,

[01:17:51] pretty simple and not in a bad way, but it's just like psychologically.

[01:17:54] Um, I had a great, I think that casting is under a little bit of strain here.

[01:18:00] Um, I've noticed recently that like the, a lot of the men are, are kind of like nerdy,

[01:18:06] you know, they're kind of dorks.

[01:18:08] They're like the so-called losers, myself included.

[01:18:10] And I'm wondering like why this is Rob.

[01:18:12] And I think a big part of it is, is that a lot of like the like jockey or men, like a

[01:18:17] lot of the like stronger dudes, you know, like have, have political opinions.

[01:18:22] The show doesn't want a platform.

[01:18:23] Um, and I think that that kind of screens out a lot of these, like, you know, these macho

[01:18:28] men are like, you know, the truck drivers that people are always asking for.

[01:18:31] Um, and I think that the solution to this is not to just, you know, cast like the HR types.

[01:18:37] Um, but like to find people who like really don't fit into molds, who break archetypes,

[01:18:42] who are very, you know, complex and nuanced in many facets.

[01:18:45] Maybe people who like don't even know who they are, don't have that confirmed sense of

[01:18:49] identity.

[01:18:50] Um, but like have a lot of different jockeying things that will act out.

[01:18:53] Yeah.

[01:18:53] Um, and it's kind of a departure from, from some of the program currently.

[01:18:57] Right.

[01:18:58] Um, I definitely think that, uh, what you're saying makes a lot of sense in terms of the

[01:19:03] people that, uh, you know, you're looking for, but, you know, I do hope that, you know,

[01:19:08] uh, we get to a point where, you know, uh, everybody's like political view does not become

[01:19:13] like the defining characteristic of people.

[01:19:17] And maybe the show is, you know, as that becomes maybe less of a thing that's sort of

[01:19:23] like front and center for people, then maybe that, uh, is less of a, you know, dividing

[01:19:29] line in terms of like who we're looking at for casting.

[01:19:32] Oh yeah.

[01:19:33] I mean, like completely agree.

[01:19:34] Um, you know, wholesale.

[01:19:37] Um, and I guess we'll just have to, you know, as commentators, we'll just have to see, we'll

[01:19:40] have to see what happens.

[01:19:41] I mean, that's a little above our pay grade, but, um, but I, I think it's a factor in the,

[01:19:45] in the casting at least.

[01:19:47] All right.

[01:19:47] Uh, well, one more person to ask you about.

[01:19:49] Okay.

[01:19:49] Um, Rome was, uh, an interesting personality to be a part of this season.

[01:19:56] Uh, what did you think of Rome?

[01:19:58] Well, I'll tell you, Rome is like the gift that keeps on giving Rob.

[01:20:01] I just learned this recently.

[01:20:02] I don't know.

[01:20:02] Did you know this?

[01:20:03] That Rome faked his death?

[01:20:05] I did hear this.

[01:20:06] Yeah.

[01:20:07] I did.

[01:20:07] I didn't go too much into it.

[01:20:09] Uh, but I have heard about this.

[01:20:11] Yeah.

[01:20:11] I, I just heard about it.

[01:20:12] He was like a rap battler and he, he faked his death.

[01:20:16] So he didn't have to go to this rap competition.

[01:20:18] Um, very interesting.

[01:20:20] You're kind of a rap battler in a way.

[01:20:21] You know what in like having R-H-A-P?

[01:20:25] Yeah.

[01:20:26] Rap.

[01:20:26] I don't know.

[01:20:26] How do you, how do you pronounce it?

[01:20:27] You say it like that?

[01:20:28] I mean, I say R-H-A-P typically.

[01:20:30] R-H-A-P.

[01:20:31] But you could, you know, listen, anybody who wants to talk about it, we're, we're happy to have

[01:20:34] them mention it.

[01:20:36] Oh, the rap battle?

[01:20:38] The Rome?

[01:20:38] I think R-J-P.

[01:20:40] Please mention it anywhere.

[01:20:41] Oh, R-J-P.

[01:20:42] If you could wear a t-shirt next time you go on Jeopardy, that would be huge.

[01:20:45] Oh yeah.

[01:20:46] I will.

[01:20:46] I will plug it.

[01:20:47] All my, all my promo interviews.

[01:20:49] I think it's a great opportunity for though, um, for you, Rob, to kind of do something a

[01:20:53] little bit new and, and some of the investigative reporting wing of your, of your podcast, you

[01:20:59] know, like of your album.

[01:21:00] True crime documentary.

[01:21:01] I think we need to send a reporter up there to like, you know, wherever Rome is from to

[01:21:05] New York.

[01:21:06] And we need to get to the bottom of, is he dead?

[01:21:09] Did he?

[01:21:09] I think he's alive.

[01:21:10] Yeah.

[01:21:11] I think he's alive too, but I mean, there are conflicting reports.

[01:21:13] It's important that we investigate this.

[01:21:15] Fall down a well?

[01:21:16] Yeah.

[01:21:17] Um, yeah.

[01:21:19] So Rome was a funny guy.

[01:21:20] I think, you know, prime example of like some psychological complexity.

[01:21:24] Gee, I mean, he was pretty annoying though.

[01:21:25] I wouldn't have wanted to be out there with him.

[01:21:27] Like, yeah, I think that that was a lot, but you know what?

[01:21:29] I think it's so fascinating that Genevieve loved him.

[01:21:33] Yes.

[01:21:34] That was kind of, I, I, I think that Rome is very like entertaining.

[01:21:37] I think that Rome is somebody that is kind of like funny to, to, to talk to and to watch

[01:21:41] perform and I wouldn't be shocked if for Genevieve who, uh, was a pretty cool cucumber and like

[01:21:48] didn't really want to put herself out there that much emotionally.

[01:21:50] Yeah.

[01:21:50] If Rome was like a great sidekick.

[01:21:52] And a great shield.

[01:21:53] And a great shield.

[01:21:55] Uh, I'm sure that was a part of it.

[01:21:57] Um, Rome again, kind of like Q in the sense that they have like overriding concerns that

[01:22:03] condition, uh, the way they're going to play the game.

[01:22:05] So for Q, it was control.

[01:22:07] Q always had to be in control or the feel that he was in control of the moves.

[01:22:11] And when this was no longer possible, Q began to make moves against his allies for the sole

[01:22:16] reason of having control, because if he couldn't control moves against the opposition, then

[01:22:19] at least he can control his own, like, you know, combustion in the game.

[01:22:23] And eventually he burned out at that.

[01:22:25] Like I'm going to quit because that was his last way to have control.

[01:22:28] It's like, I can still control who goes home.

[01:22:29] If I go home, um, in the same type of way, Rome had to be the center of attention.

[01:22:35] Like just had to have everything about him had to be the focus had to be the one up.

[01:22:39] Um, and you know, as, as, you know, it became less advantageous to be the center of attention,

[01:22:46] right?

[01:22:46] Because people don't want to work with you.

[01:22:47] Yeah.

[01:22:48] People like Jeff, you aren't going to be magnetized to you.

[01:22:49] And also as to become a lot more people to compete with, uh, he just got spread too

[01:22:53] thin and everyone was like, you know, nobody had a sense of who he was.

[01:22:56] Uh, and you know, he got burned.

[01:22:58] At that same travel council that Rome sat in Jeff's chair, that there was also a moment

[01:23:03] where the, you would not have sat in Jeff's chair.

[01:23:06] Oh, the disrespect, the disrespect is unbelievable.

[01:23:10] Why did Jeff let that happen, man?

[01:23:12] I mean, I think he knew he was going home.

[01:23:14] I think he thought that like, Oh, like watch this.

[01:23:17] Like, Oh, he'll be so overconfidence will be dripping off of him and then he'll be voted

[01:23:22] out.

[01:23:23] I know, but they kind of played it.

[01:23:24] Like it was cutesy.

[01:23:25] I was like, I was like the audacity of this guy to like go sit in Jeff's chair, which

[01:23:29] by the way, it doesn't even look very comfortable.

[01:23:31] You know, it's like, yeah, you're going to walk all the way over on television to like

[01:23:35] go sit on the same chair.

[01:23:36] I mean, Jeff should get a pillow.

[01:23:37] I think it's only fair.

[01:23:38] I think he's 46.

[01:23:39] I think when he was like eating the popcorn, I think he did get a pillow because he was

[01:23:42] trying to be comfortable watching the fireworks at that travel council.

[01:23:45] But at that travel council where Rome sat in Jeff's chair, then there was also a moment

[01:23:50] where Andy and teeny and Caroline had gotten a three-way shared advantage.

[01:23:57] And I think you even commented about this on Twitter and they gave it.

[01:24:01] They said, okay, we're here to play.

[01:24:04] We're here to burn the three-way shared advantage together.

[01:24:09] Yeah.

[01:24:10] What was your thought on that?

[01:24:12] You know, it was really interesting.

[01:24:14] I think that a great comparison would be season 27 blood versus water, because then you go

[01:24:21] to these, I don't remember what it was called.

[01:24:23] Redemption duels.

[01:24:24] Yep.

[01:24:24] Duels of redemption with something like that.

[01:24:27] Maybe not.

[01:24:29] I think it was a redemption island duel.

[01:24:31] Yeah.

[01:24:31] Redemption island.

[01:24:32] That's what it's called.

[01:24:33] So you go to these and there are publicly clues, publicly given out and everyone burned

[01:24:39] the clues.

[01:24:40] Yeah.

[01:24:40] And what was really interesting is that after that survivors stopped doing the public

[01:24:44] clues.

[01:24:44] They stopped putting the clues in the rewards a little bit.

[01:24:46] You know, they started just hiding them because they recognize that like these overly public

[01:24:50] advantages, they recognized at the time were discouraging actually advantage-based gameplay.

[01:24:56] And that you needed to force conditions where people had to keep things silent.

[01:25:00] Like today, Jeff was annoyed.

[01:25:02] Well, I guess this week, Jeff was annoyed that everyone told Rachel the plan.

[01:25:06] And of course he's annoyed because number one, it's strategically, it's a little flaccid,

[01:25:09] but number two, it makes for bad TV, right?

[01:25:12] Good TV is the blind side.

[01:25:13] It's the hashtag blind side.

[01:25:14] It used to appear on the bottom of the screens because, you know, it was good TV and they wanted

[01:25:18] you to tell everyone, everyone who wasn't watching.

[01:25:22] So where did you get that Jeff was annoyed in the, when at tribal council?

[01:25:26] Oh, you just based on his, his reaction.

[01:25:29] He's like Antini, I'm sure even you told, you know, you told Rachel she was going home.

[01:25:33] Did you all tell Rachel she was going home?

[01:25:36] You know, he was, he's frustrated.

[01:25:37] He knows Rachel has the idol.

[01:25:39] Like, I think, like, I felt like that.

[01:25:42] Is he just like, is he himself acting at tribal council sometimes?

[01:25:47] He might be a little bit for sure, but he definitely gets annoyed about this free sharing

[01:25:52] of information.

[01:25:52] Well, that's why there's the, um, yeah, that's what I meant.

[01:25:57] But then also, and they did something really subtle this season, but that last journey that

[01:26:01] Rachel went on at the table, they made it ridiculous.

[01:26:04] Like they, it was fun for viewers, but it was insane.

[01:26:07] And the reason why they made it insane was because if you go back to the camp and you tell

[01:26:11] that true story, nobody's going to believe it.

[01:26:13] It's a fake story.

[01:26:14] They created a journey that was so ridiculous that it was impossible to be believed because

[01:26:19] they're tired of people telling everybody everything.

[01:26:21] Um, so burning the three-way advantage, the advantage has been solved.

[01:26:27] It will never not be used like that again, which also means it's never coming back.

[01:26:30] Um, I mean, it's the optimal way to play.

[01:26:33] And what instead is going to happen is there's going to be more advantages that are like totally

[01:26:37] secret and that are totally like, you know, you can't share.

[01:26:40] Yeah.

[01:26:41] Brandon Donlin, I saw a clip on like his Instagram, I think, or somebody else's Instagram that

[01:26:45] I thought was like such a profound and incredible idea.

[01:26:49] Yes.

[01:26:49] I was like, dear God, this is, this is a really interesting idea.

[01:26:53] Um, he was suggesting there was a verbal only idol that the idol is saying a phrase akin to

[01:26:59] how you did it at 41.

[01:27:00] And that you can say the phrase at tribal council to Jeff and you can get the idol.

[01:27:06] But the thing about it is that like nobody can verify and you can't tell anybody else the

[01:27:10] phrase.

[01:27:11] So it's like this big, what if?

[01:27:12] And I was like, that's an amazing.

[01:27:14] Do you get a physical idol after that?

[01:27:16] Or Jeff says the immunity idol phrase has been said at tribal council and now this person

[01:27:21] is safe.

[01:27:22] No, the phrase is the idol.

[01:27:25] Okay.

[01:27:25] Saying the phrase is the idol is the advantage.

[01:27:27] And it's not like you say it and then at tribal and then like you would get one later

[01:27:30] on in your bag.

[01:27:31] Yeah.

[01:27:32] Um, I think that, I think that was a really good idea, honestly.

[01:27:36] Um, and that, that things like this, the shared idol can never happen again.

[01:27:40] Like what should the phrase be?

[01:27:44] I don't know.

[01:27:45] I mean, the thing is you're going to say it like when you're going to immunity.

[01:27:47] So it needs to be something bad-ass, you know, it needs to be like, like I, I can't

[01:27:53] even hypothesize.

[01:27:54] I mean, you've got tribal council.

[01:27:55] It has to be something that it's like, Hey, everybody vote.

[01:27:58] Vote for me tonight.

[01:28:01] I'm begging you.

[01:28:05] Maybe, maybe you have to say that.

[01:28:07] And then you have to be like, Oh, actually I didn't mean it.

[01:28:08] I don't know what came up.

[01:28:09] That is something I might say if I was wanting to go home, but I would never actually mean that.

[01:28:17] Yeah.

[01:28:18] Oh, you know, you, you, what, what do you, you have like the B and B, right?

[01:28:22] You can have them brainstorm.

[01:28:25] Mike and Liana will come up with the right phrase.

[01:28:27] They'll get you something good.

[01:28:29] Okay.

[01:28:29] But the point is, is that like this advantage is, uh, ill thought out for, um, a period

[01:28:35] of survivor where like advantage gameplay is discouraged and, uh, it won't be back.

[01:28:40] That's my, that's my assessment.

[01:28:42] Okay.

[01:28:43] Drew, what else is going on in your world when you're not watching survivor?

[01:28:47] Yeah.

[01:28:47] Well, I haven't, I haven't been following survivors closely.

[01:28:50] I don't know if I, uh, I don't know if I mentioned this just cause it's like, you

[01:28:53] know, I'm, I'm in grad school, I'm at Oxford, uh, stuff like that, you know, tournament

[01:28:57] of champions will be on the, on the card sooner or later for jeopardy.

[01:29:00] So I champion, the champion.

[01:29:03] Can you believe it?

[01:29:03] I know at least, at least I won something.

[01:29:06] Um, but, but yeah, that's very exciting.

[01:29:09] The level of competition will be very high.

[01:29:11] So we'll see how that goes.

[01:29:13] Um, it is, it is nice talking.

[01:29:15] What if at some point you go back for jeopardy and Ken Jennings says, Drew, you know so much

[01:29:22] about your, why don't you take, come here, take, take my place on the stage.

[01:29:26] Take notes.

[01:29:27] Come say, come sit in my, at my podium and explain this to the crowd.

[01:29:35] I'd probably do it.

[01:29:36] I'd probably do it.

[01:29:37] Okay.

[01:29:38] There's a difference between jeopardy and survivor.

[01:29:40] You know, I like, I like jeopardy, you know, survivor tribal council is a holy place.

[01:29:45] Uh, make no mistake.

[01:29:47] Uh, the Alex Trebek theater is not a holy place.

[01:29:52] It's a good place.

[01:29:53] It's a good place.

[01:29:53] I like it a lot.

[01:29:54] I like it a lot.

[01:29:55] I'm happy to be there.

[01:29:55] I'm happy to win lots of money there.

[01:29:57] Uh, for sure.

[01:29:58] That's helped with my enjoyment.

[01:29:59] Um, but you know, going to the podium when it's not going to be on TV, it's a little different

[01:30:04] than sitting in the chair.

[01:30:05] You don't even have to say it.

[01:30:06] Do you know the exact dollar amounts that you won on jeopardy?

[01:30:11] Yeah.

[01:30:13] Pretty good.

[01:30:14] Pretty good.

[01:30:15] Oh, well, I mean a great days at work.

[01:30:16] I'll tell you, I made more and I mean, jeopardy, if you're winning, you make on average

[01:30:20] 40,000 bucks an hour.

[01:30:22] Wow.

[01:30:22] I mean, what was the last time you had a job that paid you 40,000 bucks an hour?

[01:30:25] Never.

[01:30:26] Never.

[01:30:26] I made more on a day of jeopardy than I did on survivor.

[01:30:28] Wow.

[01:30:29] I had to, I had to go live out there in the, in the middle of the nowhere for, for 23 days.

[01:30:33] No, it's a good gig.

[01:30:35] Um, but there's something about the adventure of survivor that really is irreplaceable.

[01:30:39] So, you know, I, I'm a, I'm a loyalist.

[01:30:41] Okay.

[01:30:42] Always at heart.

[01:30:43] Um, other than that though, not a ton is going on.

[01:30:46] I got to get a job.

[01:30:47] I'm about finished with grad school, which is sad.

[01:30:50] What job will you have when you get through graduate school?

[01:30:53] I don't know, Rob.

[01:30:54] I have no idea.

[01:30:55] Um, I, I, I, I'm, I might just for a year, like try and do like the writing stuff.

[01:31:03] Yeah.

[01:31:04] Um, work in publishing, something like that just for a couple of years.

[01:31:06] But will you probably be a professor?

[01:31:09] Well, I, I would like to be a professor, but I think that kind of academia is on the way

[01:31:15] out.

[01:31:15] I think that, I think that due to like developments in AI and due to changes in the economy, it

[01:31:21] doesn't really make a lot of sense to go to school.

[01:31:22] And it means that a lot of these schools won't exist in a couple of decades.

[01:31:27] And so like being a professor is, is this is not great timing to be graduating from Oxford.

[01:31:34] I know.

[01:31:35] No, I, well, I mean, you know, hopefully you can do something else with it, but I just,

[01:31:38] I just think academia is not, is not a safe bet in the long run.

[01:31:41] Um, and, but, but, you know, when has life ever been safe?

[01:31:44] But what is?

[01:31:44] But what is?

[01:31:45] Yeah.

[01:31:46] So it might be, it might be fun to go out there and try something crazy.

[01:31:49] Um, so I think I probably, I'll take a year to do the writing stuff and that, that defaults,

[01:31:53] I'll go get another degree, either a PhD or law school or an MBA.

[01:31:57] I don't know.

[01:31:58] So we'll see.

[01:31:59] Okay.

[01:31:59] Okay.

[01:32:00] Well, Drew, anything else that you're watching?

[01:32:02] I know you're busy.

[01:32:04] Well, like, what's, like, what's are the types of things that entertain you?

[01:32:09] Watching a lot of chess recently, you know, the world chess championship.

[01:32:12] Very exciting.

[01:32:13] How do you watch that?

[01:32:14] Is it on Twitch or is it on TV?

[01:32:16] Yeah.

[01:32:17] Well, it's on Twitch, but you can go and I'll do like some of the recap videos.

[01:32:20] I like this dude named Gotham Chess.

[01:32:22] Yeah.

[01:32:22] Who's very popular on YouTube.

[01:32:24] He's got like 5 million subscribers.

[01:32:25] Who's the best survivor chess player?

[01:32:27] Is it you?

[01:32:28] It could be me.

[01:32:29] I mean, the thing is, is that there's a guy on production who plays a lot of chess.

[01:32:33] Yes.

[01:32:34] Um, at Ponderosa.

[01:32:35] You know who this is?

[01:32:36] No.

[01:32:37] Oh, okay.

[01:32:38] Um, and Billy, Billy's his name, plays a lot of chess.

[01:32:42] Um, and we played and I was like, how do I stack?

[01:32:45] I beat him.

[01:32:45] And I was like, how do I stack?

[01:32:46] He was really good.

[01:32:47] And he's like, well, you're better than James.

[01:32:50] Um, you're really good.

[01:32:52] You're as good as Spencer.

[01:32:53] You're about as good as Spencer.

[01:32:54] I'd say.

[01:32:56] Wow.

[01:32:56] And so I was, you know, I was tied with like, with, with, you know, the best he played.

[01:33:01] So that's pretty good.

[01:33:02] Spencer was at Ponderosa for like one day.

[01:33:05] Yeah.

[01:33:05] Well, I don't know.

[01:33:06] That's a very good point.

[01:33:07] They must've played in that one day.

[01:33:08] And also Spencer was, you know, a little malnourished.

[01:33:11] So I'm sure he's better than me if we were to square up face to face.

[01:33:14] Yeah.

[01:33:14] Um, other than that though, I, uh, I started watching Barry recently.

[01:33:18] It's funny.

[01:33:19] Okay.

[01:33:20] Um, and other than that, not, not much, not much going on.

[01:33:23] What Barry of all the shows?

[01:33:25] My girlfriend wanted to watch it.

[01:33:26] I was like, okay, we'll watch Barry.

[01:33:28] Uh, so we're, we're plugging along with that.

[01:33:30] It's okay.

[01:33:30] Okay.

[01:33:30] Now your girlfriend, not to ask too much personal information, uh, that, uh, how, how is this

[01:33:37] working with like, uh, is, is she in Oxford with you?

[01:33:41] Is she home?

[01:33:42] No.

[01:33:42] Yeah.

[01:33:43] We're long distance.

[01:33:44] We've been long distance now for like a year and a half.

[01:33:46] So it's a long time.

[01:33:47] The thing about Oxford is that, um, it's trimesters and the breaks between trimesters are the length

[01:33:52] of the trimester.

[01:33:53] Yeah.

[01:33:53] So every, every like eight weeks of school, you get six weeks off.

[01:33:57] Um, so during my six weeks off, I go back to America as we see each other in that capacity,

[01:34:01] but yeah, it's been a while.

[01:34:02] I'm looking forward to getting back to America.

[01:34:04] Uh, hopefully I'll be headed to the East coast.

[01:34:06] She's based in Philly.

[01:34:07] So ideally New York or Philly.

[01:34:08] Uh, and we will be in person again.

[01:34:11] I've been together for a long time, like four and a half years now, Rob.

[01:34:13] And I think actually I'm headed back to America, uh, tomorrow.

[01:34:16] I had to check my date, which is a bad sign, but tomorrow to go see her.

[01:34:21] Okay.

[01:34:21] Uh, yeah, that's incredible.

[01:34:22] I didn't know that it was such a long relationship.

[01:34:25] I know it really, I think it helped me in survivor casting.

[01:34:29] Cause they were like looking at me and they're like, okay, you know, another one.

[01:34:32] I was like, oh, I've got a girlfriend for a long time.

[01:34:34] Yeah.

[01:34:34] Like, wow.

[01:34:35] How about that?

[01:34:35] They didn't see that coming.

[01:34:37] Yeah.

[01:34:37] Maybe he can't socialize.

[01:34:39] Yeah.

[01:34:39] Um, so appreciate, appreciate you, uh, MG and, uh, and yeah.

[01:34:44] Oh, wow.

[01:34:45] Shout out.

[01:34:46] Will she watch this?

[01:34:47] Well, she, sometimes she does watch the stuff I'm in and she's very involved.

[01:34:51] Like she ran my social media, um, during the, uh, shows airing.

[01:34:56] I just let her do it all.

[01:34:57] So now that she's done doing it, like, you know, my social media has been pretty dead.

[01:35:00] I've been losing followers.

[01:35:01] I gotta get back on her and I gotta rehire her.

[01:35:03] Um, but yeah.

[01:35:04] What will you do to get the followers back?

[01:35:07] Uh, I don't know.

[01:35:08] I'll start an only fans, you know, go, go, uh, if I hit 30,000 followers on Instagram,

[01:35:13] I'll start an only fan.

[01:35:15] On Instagram.

[01:35:15] Is that your number one platform?

[01:35:17] Only fans?

[01:35:18] Instagram?

[01:35:19] No, Instagram.

[01:35:20] Yeah.

[01:35:21] Instagram is where I do the best.

[01:35:23] I've never been good at Twitter, Rob.

[01:35:24] You know, are you good at Twitter?

[01:35:25] You're a writer.

[01:35:26] I know, but Twitter, you gotta be so snappy and you gotta like, you know, have these,

[01:35:30] like these, these.

[01:35:31] What do you do on Instagram?

[01:35:33] Are you posting pictures and stuff?

[01:35:34] I just post pictures.

[01:35:35] And the other thing is I'm not, I'm not that good looking either.

[01:35:37] So like my Instagram is like, my Instagram is a little slow rolling.

[01:35:40] What about Blue Sky?

[01:35:42] People would love you on Blue Sky.

[01:35:44] Blue Sky.

[01:35:45] Blue Sky.

[01:35:46] Somebody else just told me that I gotta get on Blue Sky.

[01:35:49] Rob, it seems boring to me, you know?

[01:35:52] Mm-hmm.

[01:35:53] Like, was there any content worth looking at on Blue Sky?

[01:35:56] So I think that Blue Sky, in my analysis of it, that I think that Blue Sky is probably

[01:36:02] better for building community and to, uh, you know, talking to people.

[01:36:06] I think it's a safer space on Blue Sky from some of the things that people are getting

[01:36:11] away from on Twitter.

[01:36:13] But I do think that Twitter is still like the ocean.

[01:36:16] If you are trying to meet, uh, or attract new people, I think that there's still more

[01:36:22] new folks around on Twitter.

[01:36:26] Going to Twitter is like going to the Agora.

[01:36:28] It's like going to the market, you know?

[01:36:30] It's going to be a little messy.

[01:36:31] There's going to be some guts in the street.

[01:36:33] Yeah.

[01:36:33] But like, by God, you're going to see the world.

[01:36:35] You'll see the world.

[01:36:36] Blue Sky is like going to a country club.

[01:36:39] It's like, oh, here are my fellow, you know, white collar, uh, you know, people making,

[01:36:44] making 80 to $120,000 a year.

[01:36:48] And we all have the same politics and we all discuss like, you know, Oprah's book of the

[01:36:51] week, book of the month.

[01:36:53] Like, that's boring.

[01:36:54] I want to, I want to, you know, I want to see the world.

[01:36:56] I want to go to the, go to the marketplace of ideas.

[01:36:59] Twitter.

[01:36:59] Is that how they should rebrand it?

[01:37:01] Yeah.

[01:37:01] And, and let me tell you, it's got laissez-faire over there.

[01:37:04] There's no regulation.

[01:37:05] Ideas.

[01:37:05] A lot of ideas.

[01:37:06] No market regulations.

[01:37:07] Yes.

[01:37:07] No, it's interesting.

[01:37:09] Yes.

[01:37:10] I'm not going to go to Blue Sky.

[01:37:11] I'm going to, I'm going to ride out the ship.

[01:37:13] Ride out.

[01:37:13] You're going to go down with the ship.

[01:37:14] At least for a couple months.

[01:37:15] Yes.

[01:37:16] Well, Drew, uh, it's so fun for me when we get together.

[01:37:19] So thank you for making this time to, uh, talk with me.

[01:37:22] And I really, I, I told you before we came on, but I said to Sam Moore for weeks, he said,

[01:37:28] where is Drew Basile?

[01:37:32] Well, I, I really give him a list of names and I say, these are the people that I need

[01:37:36] to talk to.

[01:37:38] Uh, and he says, all right.

[01:37:40] All right.

[01:37:41] It's kind of like field of dreams.

[01:37:43] Like if you call, I will come, you know, if you, if you, if you guys have me, I'm honored

[01:37:47] to be here.

[01:37:47] I hope, I hope it's entertaining enough.

[01:37:49] I was thoroughly entertained and that's all that counts.

[01:37:52] Very good.

[01:37:52] Drew, where can people follow you on that Instagram?

[01:37:56] Not an only fans on Instagram.

[01:37:58] I don't know my username.

[01:37:59] It's if you put drew Basile, it's the one that's verified, you know, just go click that

[01:38:03] one.

[01:38:04] I'm verified now, Rob.

[01:38:05] It's very exciting.

[01:38:05] I wasn't.

[01:38:06] Do you think you gave anything that the New York post will pick up?

[01:38:10] Uh, I did have that thought.

[01:38:12] Um, but hopefully not.

[01:38:14] I don't know that you're considering an only fans.

[01:38:16] Could that be it?

[01:38:17] Oh yeah.

[01:38:18] That definitely could be a picked up.

[01:38:19] Yeah.

[01:38:20] Well, that's true though.

[01:38:21] That's true.

[01:38:21] You know, this is part of my promo.

[01:38:23] Would Jeopardy frown upon that if you started in only fans?

[01:38:26] Oh yes.

[01:38:27] I would never be invited back.

[01:38:28] But can you brand yourself as like the smartest guy on only fans?

[01:38:32] The smartest that, you know, I might actually be the smartest guy in only fans.

[01:38:35] That is not out of the, you know, that, that could be.

[01:38:37] Well, you're not on there yet.

[01:38:38] That's true.

[01:38:39] But if I were to get on there, which, which I'm not, but you know, just to, just to clarify

[01:38:43] for the viewers, um, that might actually be feasible.

[01:38:46] I don't think I'm the smartest person ever played Survivor though, Rob.

[01:38:48] I mean, how can I compete with people like you and Fishback and Cochran?

[01:38:51] And Spencer and, and, you know, the Kellen and Sophie.

[01:38:55] And I don't know.

[01:38:56] I think you have a good case to make.

[01:38:57] I think so.

[01:38:59] Um, that could you also have the most degrees on only fans?

[01:39:04] Oh, I, I mean, I'm about to, I have too many degrees.

[01:39:06] Like I've got like my undergrad, I've got, I, you know, did two one-year masters because

[01:39:10] I had scholarship funding.

[01:39:11] So I was like, okay, I'll do it in my second.

[01:39:13] This is my second year.

[01:39:14] Yeah.

[01:39:14] I mean, like what, why the hell do you have two masters?

[01:39:17] That's, that's stupid.

[01:39:18] Like if you could put two masters on your resume, they're kind of like, huh, I got to like

[01:39:21] knock one off.

[01:39:22] I got to choose my master.

[01:39:23] Listen, like that's, that's a little bizarre.

[01:39:25] I've got, I've got two masters.

[01:39:27] It writes itself.

[01:39:29] Okay.

[01:39:31] There's a lot that you could do with that.

[01:39:32] You're the creative writer.

[01:39:34] Oh yeah.

[01:39:35] Maybe, uh, you know, I can, I'll flex it, uh, and survivor 60 casting auditions.

[01:39:40] I'll be like, oh, I've got four masters.

[01:39:43] You've got like the, like the, already the photos of flexing.

[01:39:47] Yeah.

[01:39:48] Yeah.

[01:39:48] True.

[01:39:48] I just got to get some degrees in them.

[01:39:50] Yeah.

[01:39:50] All right.

[01:39:51] Well, Drew Basile, thank you so much for being here with us.

[01:39:53] We still got one more survivor podcast to go this week.

[01:39:57] Club condo.

[01:39:58] Mike Bloom is going to join Chappelle and I to talk about everything from this week of

[01:40:02] survivor heading into the finale.

[01:40:05] Check out everything else, uh, from this week, including, uh, I went almost three hours on

[01:40:09] the patron Q and a this week.

[01:40:11] So if you're interested in that sort of thing or want to be on one of the calls, uh, asking

[01:40:16] your survivor questions, you can do that at rob is website.com slash patron.

[01:40:20] Love to read your comments here on YouTube.

[01:40:22] Take care of a good one.

[01:40:23] Bye.

[01:40:24] Bye.

[01:40:24] Thank you.