Brennan Lee Mulligan Talks Survivor 50 Ep 12

[00:00:08] Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back here and we have such a fun podcast for you here. I hope, I hope it's a fun podcast here today as we are careening into the Survivor 50 finale on Wednesday, but we've got a good one here today with a guest.

[00:00:26] I got so much feedback from fellow Survivors about, oh my God, I can't believe you're having Brennan Lee Mulligan on the podcast. Of course, he is of Dimension 20, dropout TV, critical role. He is a dungeon master. He is a comedian, an improviser and a Survivor super fan. Please welcome Brennan. Brennan, how are you?

[00:00:53] I'm doing great, man. It is an honor, a privilege and a pleasure to be here. I could not be more psyched. Wait, who on Survivor was talking about me to you? I want to know. Do I have other people that follow? Steven Fishback texted me. Yeah, I know. I love Fishback. Fish, what's up, man? Yes. All right. Well, I hope your DMs are open. Who else? Jake O'Kane, Franny Marin. Like, listen. Wow.

[00:01:20] The new era especially is very like D&D coded. Let's go, man. Well, I love it, man. And I've been, my, I have been watching Survivor since I was a kid. I was watching earlier. I mean, I think I was watching the first season with my family when it came out.

[00:01:36] And, but then I got to rediscover and re-fall in love with it with my wife, the amazing Isabella Roland, who is also a Survivor super fan and an incredible comedian. And it became this bonding thing. We got a gift from Sam Reich over at Dropout, which was a like immunity idol he had crafted that he gave to us as like a wedding gift. It was really sweet. We, it's, it's awesome, man. So that's very cool to hear. Shout out to all the survivors who have been kind enough to support the, the, the shows that I work on.

[00:02:05] So, Brennan, to do an interview such as this, where you come into this world, I'd love to just start with some background in terms of who you are and everything you've done in your career. For anybody who's uninitiated, who may just be meeting you for the first time, can you tell us a little bit of your background and how people know you so well?

[00:02:28] I would be delighted to. So for, for folks watching who might, who, who are Survivor's fans that have not encountered any of my work, I'm a comedian. I've, I work at Dropout.tv, which makes Game Changer and makes some noise and Dimension 20, very important people.

[00:02:43] I work at Critical Role, which is a D&D actual play show. I work at a podcast company called Worlds Beyond Number, which is also actual play, which is comedians, voice actors, storytellers, doing storytelling narrative by playing tabletop role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. And I got my start in kind of both worlds. My mom was a comic book writer that wrote science fiction. Oh, wow.

[00:03:06] My dad was a standup, my dad was a standup comedian. I do fantasy sci-fi comedy for us. So it's very much, we're opening, we're opening the family store every morning. And I got my start working at a summer camp called the Wayfinder Experience, which is now Wayfinder Adventures, which was a LARP camp.

[00:03:25] So I was the head writer for a live action role-playing camp. And then I got started doing comedy. I went to school for screenwriting in New York, where I'm from. And I got my start comedically at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater. Wow. So it's a lot of fantasy, a lot of comedy, all kind of blurring together.

[00:03:42] In all of your role-playing, have you ever done any either online Survivor or in-person Survivor games? I know you've played Survivor on dropout TV, but have you ever played in any more traditional Survivor live action or online games?

[00:04:02] I have not, I have not played in any like, like friend games or like groups of games like that. I have dreamed of, of, you know, like I definitely have been that person when Jeff is going like, it's you, sign up, get off the couch. And I look and I'm like, maybe one day I could do it. But now, of course, I feel like I would show up if I ever got lucky enough to play Survivor, I would show up day one and people would be like, wait a minute, you're the D&D guy.

[00:04:29] And I'd go, yeah. And they'd go, get him out of here. And then I'd be off the island immediately. Wow. You think that D&D, that would be a very threatening, you know, because Kane back in Survivor 44, big, big D&D guy, that people were not necessarily threatened by his Dungeons and Dragons background?

[00:04:48] No, I don't think so. But I think that there is, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like early in the game, anything from outside the game that can identify you even a little bit. Yes. Like, I don't think I would land on the beach by any imagination and have everybody know who I was. That would be so gauche to be like, I assume everyone's watching my incredible content here.

[00:05:11] But I think the odds of one person knowing, getting on the beach, one person knows. They go, Brennan Lee Mulligan. And then I go, hi. And people go, do you guys know each other? And he goes, no, he's from the internet. He's a dungeon master. He's enough to be a reason. He must be rich. He's on the internet. This guy performed at Madison Square Garden? Get him out of here! You know, that would be it, right? Like, yeah. So I think that that's my secret fear.

[00:05:38] But I did play in a version of Survivor on Dropout, where we did a version of Game Changer that played an homage parody of Survivor. And if anyone wants to see a really poor imitation of the goat, the myth, the legend, Rick Devins, they can see my feeble attempt to mimic Rick Devins' game. Did Rick Devins not appear in this game also?

[00:06:06] He appeared on a different episode of Game Changer, which was filled with celebrity cameos. And Rick was kind enough to lend his time and come show up with us. And it was awesome. It was totally awesome. Yes. Okay. Well, I guess that brings us to the current day where we just saw Rick Devins end up going out in this. Really, you said you were excited. This was your favorite episode of Survivor ever before we came on.

[00:06:33] He said you loved it. This was the episode you were waiting for, you said. Rob, you're the historian here. How many double tribal, not like two tribals happening back to bed, but literally like they put two episodes in one episode. How many times has that happened before? You know, it does happen on occasion. And in this spot before the finale, it has happened.

[00:06:58] And I do believe that in Survivor Game Changers, I know that we've been talking about this a lot, not just because of Dropout Game Changer. But they would do a lot of times like 6-7 or 7-8. Sometimes they do double up that episode. I don't think that's happened in the new era. But in the 30s, I think that that would happen a bit.

[00:07:25] It caught me extraordinarily off guard. And there's no way for me to read it with the two people who went home other than there is no joy in Mudville. It really, it really, truly felt like, well, I don't know who your favorite was, but they're going home this episode.

[00:07:46] But it truly to me felt like the Devon's Saree double feature was just like, we should combine these episodes because if we have to do each its own episode, people will be pushed over the edge into a depression from a spiral from which there can be no escape. If my feelings about this episode are not clear, I, oh, it'll fucking heartbreak, man. Can we curse? Can I curse? You can curse. I'll you curse. Great. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll minimize the cursing.

[00:08:17] But yeah, I was, I should make, people should know where I stand. They're encountering me for the first time here. Should know where I stand. Rick Devins is my North Star. He's my hero. I love Rick with a burning passion that can, can ne'er be quenched. Um, I think that he plays the game in a unique way and I, I could expound and elaborate on what I learned about his game. Please do. And, and, and we'll continue to.

[00:08:47] Uh, Rick Devins is a gambler and a showman. He's a raconteur. He's a mischief maker. He is the closest human being to Bugs Bunny we have in real life. He is a, he is a live action Bugs Bunny. He's PT Barnum. He's Professor Harold Hill. And, and what's wild about someone like Rick Devins. Cause you watch him and it's like, it's fireworks. It's, let's put on a show.

[00:09:18] Who's more human on that, that moment he had with Ozzy this season where they connected and his, his real genuineness. Like, and also it's so funny. The game is filled with players that talk about honor and integrity and talk about playing honorable game. Did the man write down Emily's name when, when he knew she was a goner? Did he write down Christian's name when he knew that he was a goner? No, he did not.

[00:09:43] And that is a, like, it's so funny because you can let his incredible charisma and charm and the fact that he is having a ball playing the game. You can let that distract you from the fact that he is one of the most archetypal heroes in terms of his loyalty, the integrity of which he plays the game. Like his tricks are in the world of the game. They are not ruptured relationships.

[00:10:11] It's all the, his trick, like, like any heat that he got. It's so funny. People were like sloppy gameplay. And it's like the man cruise through two tribals on one fake idol. I hope we're all that sloppy. I hope we're all that sloppy. The man's a legend. And he, he, uh, uh, the, the Mr. Beast coin flip the whole, like this dude. And this is why I love him. Right. He's I'm, I know I'm taking up so much time. I'm like, I just, I have to get off my chest because I just watched the episode last night.

[00:10:40] He, he, this dude is the patron saint of having your back against the wall. There are survivors who have won seasons where everything was lined up in their favor. And that's incredible. Some people like to see what a poker player does with a Royal flush. That's great. I love that. The cards hit. Now you have to play this, right?

[00:11:03] Rick Devins does more with a two seven off suit than most human beings could do with the Royal flush. And that's why he's the greatest. He, he, to me, it's, and I'll say, okay. I had this all this. I've been thinking about it. I've been really excited to come on your podcast. So I apologize for the, for the barrage. I don't mean to overwhelm. Hey, thank you, man. I appreciate it. Here's the deal. There have been what? Like almost 800 survivor players. 751.

[00:11:33] 751 survivor players. Been 47 winners. Right. I do not think I could name all those winners right now off the top of my head. I don't know that I get, maybe get halfway to two thirds or something like that. The game has produced a very small number of legends. It's, it's the, that's the space that Sari Fields occupies. Absolutely. And deservedly. So people who have. That the way they play, like you look at Rick Devins, flip that coin.

[00:12:03] You look at him, pull that hidden idol. You look at his original run in edge of extinction. You look at Sari Fields coming back from her challenge and the whole island is agreed on what's going to happen. And she goes, I don't think that should happen. And something else happens. And you're telling me that, that that's a different category. These people, the fact that they have not won a season is immaterial to me. What they have done to the game. I think that moment was Rick and the stars was so beautiful because his star is in the cosmos.

[00:12:33] Sari's star is in the cosmos. It is fixed. It is immutable. It is there forever. And the part of reality TV that is pure literature, that contributes actually to the beauty of our culture, right? You know, reality TVs sometimes had this back in the day, had this feeling around it of like being tawdry. I remember seeing Rick's original run in edge of extinction. This is my last anecdote.

[00:12:59] And then I'll stop talking his, his, his moment in edge of extinction where he comes back. And as someone who was bullied really badly in school, he's going to be playing D and D. You're kind of a dork and a nerd. I saw the, the tea leaves where I go, Oh, Rick, they it's nothing you've done. You just have a target on your back, right? The target that has lived perpetually on Rick Devins back kind of defies explanation.

[00:13:27] Like he's a charming, gregarious guy. Like in other words, a lot of his antics come after this mysterious, unshakable target appears on his back. He, he's like, he didn't do, you didn't do nothing. It just got there. And as a kid who was badly bullied, as a kid who has often, because of my nerdy interests felt like I, as an adult that has felt like I might be a strong cup of tea for people. I don't think I might rub people the wrong way.

[00:13:55] I watched Rick and in his first season and in season 50 had that moment of going, Rick, you're toast. The, they, you've, they, they've, they've all decided that you're the target. They've all decided you're the next thing and there's nothing you can do. And watching Rick go, you want to bet? You want to bet I'm going home? I don't think so. And episode after episode after episode playing from the edge of the arena, the tenacity,

[00:14:23] the determination is literally real world inspiring. It's like in, in literature and TV shows and movies, Rick Devin's play in Survivor is one of my favorite contributions to the story of determination and of grace and class and a beautiful heart under the most extreme pressure that you can imagine. Yeah. That was really one of the most beautiful testimonials for a Survivor player.

[00:14:53] And, uh, I mean, this was so perfect, uh, to have you on at this moment when Rick has, uh, so recently been voted out of the game. Uh, that was really just, you have done such a great job of defining his character in a way that I, unlike anything I've ever heard before, uh, specifically about Rick. Uh, it's well, I, I know that he is a very beloved player, but to me, like, you know, Survivor has this Olympic pantheon.

[00:15:21] And by the way, I'm actually borrowing your language here, Rob. Like I heard, like, I love, I was so excited to come on this show. Like you saying how the image of a hero has changed over the course of Survivor. It's an, it's a perfect insight. The earliest eras of Survivor, a hero was a kind of stoic. Like it was, it had this kind of like, like you said, it was, it was embodied by like

[00:15:49] the firefighter or the nurse, or there's something about it that's like a very, that kind of boy. Or the cowboy. It's kind of, I kind of had like a machismo around it. I would, by the way, I would say as Rick Devins, our amazing newscaster, I would actually say journalist is, especially in this current moment of the world, a pretty heroic profession. I think journalism is a really important, important and beautiful thing, but like, I loved, uh, uh, like Ben's winning game, the hard worker as, as embodied by the idle scourer, the person

[00:16:18] who turns over every rock and leaf, the, the determination, the grit person, right? It's so great to me. And it was really funny like watching, I didn't watch Joe's original season. So all I knew, and I loved Devins with the burning fire of a thousand suns. So I was like, who's this grump? Who's this guy who doesn't like my boy? I get, you know, like, I'm sure he's a lovely guy, but it was really interesting to watch, you know, Joe's seeming to have an issue with like Rick's integrity, which I, like, I don't

[00:16:47] know if we're seeing the same, his integrity is sterling. Well, who did he betray? So I wanted to ask you this because I actually, I, uh, brought this up in my exit interview with Rick Devins where, and Joe is a, is a great dad and, uh, and you know, uh, a great guy by all accounts. Uh, but that Joe is the way he looks at the world, uh, is very cut and dry, but he is lawful good. And Rick Devins, not evil, chaotic good.

[00:17:17] Uh, and there's such a clash between these two of Rick Devins in his world of chaos and Joe in his world of just, uh, just be a straight shooter with me. No, no funny business. But like, how do you, is that, I hear you. And then because we're using the alignment chart from Dungeons and Dragons, we have lawful good versus chaotic good. There's like an interesting analog there because the, listen, Rick brings the chaos and he'd be the first to tell you.

[00:17:45] I'll also say, I mean, from my point of view, I'll just, just to expand again, whoever, I think Rick made a funny joke on his way out, like whoever wins the 2 million, maybe take me out for a nice dinner, which is absolutely true. And I hope someone takes him up on that. But also Applebee's at Ned, the Applebee's, the big part of that for me too, is like, I

[00:18:08] think Rick's to, to have a big sourpuss about Rick's antics as someone who works in entertainment, I look at it as a producer and go, Rick's antics are absolutely essential to the health and longevity of the show. There are seasons of the new era filled with new era threat obsessed under the radar players

[00:18:35] where I literally go like, I think you guys are all making the right moves. These are smart games. And if everybody plays this way, I don't know how good the TV show is gang. I don't know how good the TV show. So I'm, I'll just say, give Rick Devins his damn flowers because he's keeping the lights on in this place in terms of putting on a show for people. It's essential. I've said the same thing myself in the last couple of days about Rick, where I really

[00:19:04] think that Rick is going to inspire a new style of survivor gameplay from people who play in the fifties where the survivor players are so smart. They put so many super fans on the show. Everybody who plays has seen 42 seasons of the show, at least to get on there. And everybody's playing the most optimal version of the game. And they're going to stay safe and keep their powder dry and wait to make the big move and take out the big target at exactly the right moment.

[00:19:32] And everybody's doing it the same way, except for Rick. Rick sees the world a little bit differently where it's like, but, but what if I did what was the most fun? And I do think that the show is right to celebrate that because I do think it is vital to keeping this being the type of programming that people want to watch. Yeah. I think that's exactly, I mean, it's an essential part. I mean, like I truly there, you know, I can think about recent seasons where, you know, big players get sent home.

[00:20:00] I feel like there've been a season recently where it is like we get to the episode or two before the finale. And I think it might've been like Jesse going out or Carla going out and, you know, their season. And I go like, Oh brother. I just, you know, you have that sigh of like, yeah, man, I get it. They were. And again, you look at it too. I want to give Sari love as well.

[00:20:24] Like Sari is not only the, obviously the greatest social player of all time, but like she, she knew right when that extra vote was needed, man. She knew right when that extra vote was needed. She knows how to play an advantage. But the issue is Sari and Devens and these other players, they're not playing a level game of survivor, right?

[00:20:49] Sari Fields comes onto that beach with weights tied around her ankles. And each of them says Sari Fields on it in big block letters because her disadvantage is her legend, right? And I think that's the same is true for probably a lot of like returning players where if all those people had never heard of each other and Sari was still Sari Fields, man, I don't see her going home. I just don't see it, right? I don't see it. Yeah.

[00:21:18] She really, this season solidified herself as just the best manipulator of people. I don't mean that in a negative way, but she is able to, you know, in her own way, do her, you know, Jedi mind tricks onto people in a way that no other survivor player is even capable of. I don't know if it's close. Uh, it's really, it's something to behold, right? And it's just one of those things where they go home.

[00:21:47] And I think that there is absolutely, I understand the logic and how people go. Like there's almost a mantra of like the winner of each season. What is the winner? And they were supposed to be the winner. And the winner is the, that's a philosophy you see a lot, but it's hard to not look at the season and the moves and go, nobody else could do what Sari did. That moment when she comes home from that beach full of coconuts and goes different target.

[00:22:16] And the whole beach goes that moment where Rick goes and pulls the idol up. And I don't like this rewriting history. Everyone's like, I knew it was fake. Oh yeah. Did you, did you want to vote? Like you thought it was fake? No, I don't, I don't buy this rewriting history stuff. I don't buy it one bit. Okay. Uh, uh, I think, I think that like those moves are singular and you can't art like that's impossible to argue.

[00:22:43] Um, there was this, like you said, it feels like we're in an era of extremely optimized play. So optimized. It's why actually the huge elbows from production and all the twists, I actually am. I love it. And I say, bring it on because it feels like without twists, the dominant meta people's

[00:23:06] mindset in the game is so squeaky clean and no rough edges that it would be even more of like a bummer to watch the season. It's like, I see Jeff throwing elbows in to be like, I need there to be so many boulder traps flying around this thing that we get less of this optimal play style. And the, the, the thing about the, the optimized play style and the constant thinking about threats.

[00:23:35] I think that you're talking about a new play style based on Devon's and coming back. And I think that would be great. And I think there's actually a different voice in the lore of survivor that we need to heed. There's a master from the past that we're not heeding. And it's my favorite winner of all time, which is Jeremy Collins. I loved Jeremy's winning game.

[00:23:58] And I think that the, this obsession with targets has the, has erased the fact that has erased the fact that every target is a shield. And we've forgotten because Jeremy's whole game was shields. His whole thing was setting up shields and the importance of shields. Right? I, I think if you were running season 50 in a computer spitting out different results, like in some of them, like, like Sari wins, Rick wins.

[00:24:28] But I think, I think overwhelmingly, if you run it a million times, every time Rick goes out, Sari goes out the next, Sari goes out the next episode. I think that people that I think that's so funny on season 50 to talk about threats, like you're not all legends. Like Aubrey's been to the finale. How many times? Like this idea of being like, there's threats in this game. And you're like, you better hope there's threats in this game. You're terrifying. Like these are your shields.

[00:24:56] The minute Devins goes home, Sari's cloaking device dies. Yeah. I think it's really twofold. It was a double whammy for Sari. I think that really Ozzy was the ultimate shield. And I think that she had that right. I think that Ozzy was the right person who wanted to take it to the end. She had the perfect person as a wingman to take with her. And she was going to drag Ozzy with her as far as she could.

[00:25:21] And then Ozzy gets separated from Sari and then ultimately ends up hoisted by his own petard of trying to like give his jury pitch to Aubrey. But then I was with you 100% on the last thing Sari can do is get rid of Rick Devins. And then I couldn't believe when she was pushing for Rick Devins. But I asked her about this. I said, didn't you need Rick in front of you?

[00:25:49] And before I even finished the question, she was shaking her head. She said that Rick was trying to get her. He had voted for her on the Emily vote. And she said that Rick was, I think that that was what he was trying to do to stay was like, hey, what are we doing? We got to get out Sari. But I do wish that she would have like grabbed him by the collars. And you listen to me, Rick Devins. You want to stick around for another day? Pick another name. We need each other.

[00:26:17] And hey, I'm an internet dungeon master. What the hell? I've never been on that beach. I don't know nothing about nothing. Take every, what do I know? I don't know anything. But what I feel like is Rick throwing Sari's name out. What other move does that guy have at that point with Jonathan on him? That's Rick's best play.

[00:26:43] And I think looking at that as a threat, rather than everyone has a mania. Like everyone on this beach is possessed by a vengeful spirit. That is like, don't work with this utterly charming, very loyal man. Rick has never double crossed anyone in his alliances.

[00:27:05] And like, I think, I think approaching Rick, even late in the game, after he's written your name to like Rick wrote Rizzo's, Rick told Rizzo at tribal council. Like I, another legendary Rick Devins move. The blowing up that tribal and turning it live by just saying the truth. And it was so funny to watch everybody on the old school to honor and integrity alliance who, by the way, can't stop writing each other's names down.

[00:27:29] And which is how I feel at least, is like Rick comes into that. And I think that, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I have to imagine Rick wanted an ally in that moment more than he wanted to drive a vote. Right. Like if, if he had been throwing out Tiff, if he'd been throwing out Serif, he'd been throwing out Aubrey, whatever.

[00:27:54] If any of those people had come to him and been like, Hey man, you've like you, you once again are at the edge of the sumo ring, throwing haymaker after haymaker saying this game, come inside. Let's get out this other person. I think it's a yes. Right. I mean, I imagine so. And then you've got the Rick Devins fireworks show in front of you. I mean, that's my, that's how I feel. Yeah. I was thinking the same way.

[00:28:23] Unfortunately, that is not how Sari saw it. And I, I, cause I had said, well, I don't think that Rick and Joe were ever going to work, get on the same page. And Sari said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That they would have, they would have worked together to try to get Sari out. So I mean, I can't argue with Sari. No. And again, this is just, this is, this is my observation colored by the fact that I would do anything to watch a finale with Rick and Sari in it, who also is a legend, a legend of legends forever.

[00:28:55] So when you had Rick on dropout, uh, was that because that, that was he there because you were such a big fan of Rick or did you become a fan of Rick after having met him? Totally unrelated. He re I think, I think Sam Reich is also a huge survivor fan and, uh, was, uh, reached out to Rick to come on game changer himself.

[00:29:19] I got like texted about, uh, that he was there and I got alerted to it and I couldn't believe it because again, he like in, in all these different seasons of survivor with so many, there's so many players that I love and adore, but there was just something about Rick season where it wasn't just that I liked him. And I liked his season.

[00:29:43] There was something truly inspirational in it to me and a type of story that I hadn't seen before about that just resonated with my life. It just resonated with some part of me to, to, you know, so getting to meet Rick through that was a total surprise to me. It didn't, I didn't make that happen and it was just such a joy because he's such a sweet, good man. It's very cool.

[00:30:05] Well, I was thinking as you were talking about Rick and obviously with your background as an improviser is Rick not the ultimate improviser on survivor? Dude, he's unreal, man. He's unreal. He like, you know, I feel like this season we got to see a lot of like great performers in survivors history.

[00:30:32] Like, I think it's fair to say that Christian Hubicki is the ultimate thespian of the confessional, right? And that, and that Rick Devens was born for tribal council. He, he has a command of language. That is his canvas. His work is stunning. Uh, you know, he, it's, it's, he really is an incredible improviser and incredible, you know, his little dun dun duns, his, his newscaster vibe.

[00:31:00] His like, he, I, I think that he is a, uh, excellent comedian. And again, really does bring that joy and positivity, which is great. I love to see him cutting it up on the beach. It's great. Yeah. And it's something that I, I really do try to work on in my own life of trying to, you know, ask myself the question, what, what, what, what if this thing that I was doing, what if it was fun? And I really do feel like that Rick does a great job of that.

[00:31:27] When he's having fun, you're having fun watching him. And the more that we can try to bring that into all of our activities in our lives, just asking ourselves that question. Well, what if this thing that I'm about to, you know, this thing I don't want to do, but what if it was fun? And I think that that's just such a, a hack. And I try to ask myself that question all the time to try to really turn things.

[00:31:55] It doesn't always work, but that's, that's what I try. Sure. Yeah. I think it, yeah. And Rick does a great job. Yeah. He's a, he's, it's a real, a real North star. It's very inspirational and it's very, I think, I don't know. I think it's so touching. It's really wild.

[00:32:15] I will say, you know, this last episode felt like, felt like falling down a staircase with someone chasing you down the staircase, kicking you while you fall down the staircase to me. That's what it felt like to me. That being said, how telling in terms of their character that Sari and Devin's leaving the game were all gratitude, all gratitude, all joy.

[00:32:45] I don't think I've ever seen more graceful, wholehearted, like complete exits from tribal council. So the fact that I, has, has Jeff ever let anyone else say the tribe has spoken before? I believe that he let Sari do it. Maybe this is their thing in Game Changers. I believe that was the same, the same thing that he said to Sari, do you want to say it? Yeah. I love that.

[00:33:14] I think that's completely, I think that's beautiful. And I think it was very like, yeah, it's just such a, that's, the, the grace of that is truly inspirational. It was, it was, you know, Devin's speech about the stars. It was very funny too, because, because, you know, Devin's whole philosophy, right? It's like, I'm not out. I'm not out. And you could see that speech about the stars and how moved and emotional he was because he hadn't found the idol.

[00:33:45] And maybe there wasn't an idol. I don't know what the, what the situation was. Maybe Jonathan crushed it and stepped on it. We don't know. Anything could have happened. But he gives that speech and you see that grace and that moment. And then he gets up with the shot in the dark. And I love that. I loved that moment of here's the full human.

[00:34:09] Like, I'm like, I'm like, there's a depth of soul there that you saw in the conversation with Ozzy and the fact that he never, ever loses touch with this humanity. And then still goes, but you think I'm going to give up? I'm going to throw one last haymaker, baby. Let's go. Let's see if it says safe. So it made me, I hooted and hollered. Rick, I hooted and hollered when you got up with your shot in the dark. It was beautiful to see that amount of humanity and grace.

[00:34:35] And then also say, but, and throw one last haymaker. Beautiful. The one thing that does give me some comfort is that the shot in the dark is not rigged because it would have been, um, that we know when Rick Evans gets not safe. I said the same thing when coach got not safe when he played it. But yeah, like we, now we know. Who is? Well, that's also the funny thing too, is that I feel like the shot in the dark. Have we ever seen a shot in the dark? I know that we've seen safes before.

[00:35:04] We have seen safes, but I'm trying to think, it feels like a lot of those safes, that person's gone the next episode. I'm trying to think if anyone has ever clawed back from a safe. So, so I would say, so it was in season, uh, 48, Mary, there was a player, Mary at the tribal council where Justin went home. Uh, she got safe and then there was a tribe swap, uh, right after that.

[00:35:33] And then she ends up getting swapped to another tribe. Uh, and so she, she made it out, but yet Caleb was the famous one. He gets safe and then he gets voted out at the next tribal council. Yeah. It's tough, man. The people like, they want you to go home. If they, if you, if they told you to go home and you didn't go home, they don't forget about it. The world needs to change for you to be able to be safe at the next tribal council. Like it was for Mary. Let me ask you, okay, now, okay. Rick is gone. Sari is gone.

[00:36:03] We're left with this final five. Is there anybody in particular that has a whole held your rooting interest in the final five? I think you gotta give it up to Aubrey for just the, her extraordinary, I mean her CV, which is sort of like, that's really, it's like, if you care, I feel like the way in which I think there are legendary players who are not themselves the winners of a season.

[00:36:32] Rick, Sari, I think Aubrey, you, you have to look at what's the performance over time, right? Cause to win the season, there has to be things that line up, right? I'd like, you know, it wouldn't be a game if there wasn't some component of luck to it, right? Luck is what creates a game, right? It's strategy and a little bit of luck to create that chaos. And I think that the fact that Aubrey has gone so deep in the game so many times makes her very rootable for her.

[00:37:01] And I heard the fact that, you know, she's talked about her sweet little toddler with mac and cheese and, you know, I loved that moment. And I think I'm hugely rooting for Tiff as well. I would be really happy with Aubrey, be really happy with Tiff. Tiff watched her whole alliance go and, and also determined. And you know what, like those immunity challenges are there for a reason, man. She, she has won the times that she needed to win.

[00:37:31] And I, I really, and I love that she could see the writing on the wall and she did not write Sari's name, man. I love that. I just love, I love, I love a person who goes. Loyal. Loyal. I don't like someone, someone gets to the end. I mean, in the fantasy world where I'm on a jury somewhere, but you know, someone goes like, I was on the right side of every vote. I go, that doesn't make sense. You're on the right side of every vote. So none of your, none of your allies ended up on the jury. That's tough. It's tough for you. You know what I mean?

[00:38:01] Like the idea of like, you should be on the wrong side of some votes. It's funny that we're recording this on Thursday. So I just talked to Rick Devins this morning and he said the same exact thing. He said that he thinks the most overrated thing on Survivor is people who say, well, I have a unanimous record for voting. I voted for the right person every single time. And he's like, uh, as a juror, like what? I don't care. He said, you didn't vote. You didn't keep, have any friends that you kept in the game? Yeah.

[00:38:29] Well, that's the thing too, is there's a certain amount of like, you can get on the right side of every vote by being a number. Right? Like you can get on the right side of every vote by just going where the winds blow. I don't like that. You know what I'm saying? Like that's actually my voting record. Yeah. It's like, so what, what do you look? I even thought it was very funny. There's been some elements in the edit. And again, I don't want to, everyone playing is doing something so goddamn hard and respect to everybody who's doing it.

[00:38:58] But there's interesting things in the edit, like, like that whole reward of the power broker that Jonathan got. That was very interesting because he was like, I'm running up and down this beach. But like looking at the two votes, that vote where Emily went home was being driven by Saree and Devens and Emily. Like, you know, that was, Emily was doing the driving there.

[00:39:20] And then the, and then the other one was being driven by Aubrey making the killer play to expose Ozzy and then was made by Rizzo, who we should talk about, by not alerting Ozzy saying, nah, man, I'm not going to tell you to play your thing. So it's very funny to be like the power broker. And it's like, you know, as you talk about it, I'm thinking back to it and we say like, wow, what an overpowered twist.

[00:39:43] He gets to go and be in two different tribal councils, but you know, you point out that there is a little bit of a hole in that where we would say on Survivor, okay, you never want to like walk away from the conversation when the things are happening. And by the nature of being the power broker, he has to leave both of those conversations. So he can, okay, put his thumb on the scale, but then he has to go leave for an hour and go check in on what the other thing is going on.

[00:40:10] And while he's gone, he now has no, no control over what's happening. And then he comes back and I compared it to sort of like, you know, Mrs. Doubtfire being on a, you know, two different dates that he has to go back and forth. But things are like going like, like, hey, why? Okay, let me try to put out this fire and let me go back over here. It's like, oh my God, now what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, man. It really, it was very funny because I think in both of those, the edit was cutting back to Jonathan, who obviously John's playing the best game.

[00:40:40] He can play. I don't like, he's, he's making choices, but in both of the interactions that Jonathan has on those beaches, he walks up and someone says, here's what's going on. We're going for Ozzy. And he goes, he obviously, Jonathan is delighted. He wanted that to be what was happening, but he very much walked into that already happening. You know what I'm saying? Like in both situations, it was like the power broker time to make some moves. Oh, you guys are doing the thing. I'm going to head to the other beach. You know, like, it's like, thumbs up. Okay, cool.

[00:41:10] Yeah. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Like it, it definitely, yeah, the optimized voting record, it doesn't indicate that you're a driver. It indicates that you maybe were a driver or maybe were a number, right? Maybe you just took orders well. I don't know. Yeah. And I, you know. I want to go back to something that you said earlier about Aubrey and the CV. And I thought you were talking at first about the survivor resume.

[00:41:35] And that's something that I think maybe is a little overblown of the resume to the jurors. But the interesting thing to me about that is that Aubrey of the five people left is the only person that has a real survivor body of work. Aubrey talked about how this is 136 days for me of survivor.

[00:41:58] The other people that are left are all new era, two-time players that they all played somewhere in between, you know, 18 to 26 days. And they're back for time number two. Of those final five, Aubrey is the only person that could stand in front of the jury and talk about how I've given my life to survivor over these last 10 plus years. Do you think that that's a big factor for the jury?

[00:42:28] I do. It has to be. Because you're looking for something deserved. And everybody there, like, there's been so much talk this season about, like, Zoom alliances and previous relationships and all that stuff going on. Baby, I love this show. Okay? I love it. I'm in it. Me and Iz. You got to get Iz on the show. She would love to be. Because she's just, she's like me. She is, like, in the weeds looking for tasty morsels of what's going on.

[00:42:56] So we're like, you know, but within that, it's understood. There's no avoiding it. You do a returning players season. There's baggage. There's baggage. It has to be. People are human. And it would be crazy to imagine that Aubrey does not. If you have to play with the baggage of your record, you better damn well be able to brag on it when you get to that final tribal. Right? Like, hey, I had the albatross around my neck of all the previous seasons that everybody here watched and saw what I did and was using that to talk to people about other stuff.

[00:43:25] So if I make it to this jury, yeah, I'm bringing it up. You were all thinking about it. And because you can see the reverse of that logic as well, which is people trying to take Rizzo to the end, which I, by the way, I think people that are assuming Rizzo doesn't stand a chance. I, that's a really cocky bet.

[00:43:43] I think that's, like, I think the idea, now, like, Rizzo versus a Ceri, Rizzo versus someone who is, like, so beloved and, like, has been going to survivor events for 20 years. And, like, might be someone's, you know, it might have been at someone's wedding on the jury. You know, like, that's a different thing.

[00:44:03] But this idea that, like, people are going to pick Joe or Jonathan that also just have one more recent season and not pick Rizzo because they, like, didn't watch his season on TV. I don't buy that. That's a really cocky bet to me to assume that Rizzo's a goat in the non-capitalized sense of the word. I don't know about that, man. I don't buy that.

[00:44:29] You know, I don't want to take anything away from Rizzo's game because I think it comes across as I'm being anti-Rizzo. I just don't see it. I'm not sure in terms of the jury and interviewing the jurors that the way that they've talked about him, that I think that they like him. I don't think that they think that he's, like, that they are, you know, anti-Rizzo. But I just, I don't see the jury. Aubrey said it herself.

[00:44:56] I don't see these people awarding him their vote for $2 million, especially when it's a final three. If this was a final two and he could sit there next to Joe, yeah, I think he's got a real good shot to win. And I think that maybe, again, Rizzo versus Jonathan, like, maybe he could out-talk Jonathan in a final two. But in a final three, I just think there's always going to be one other person that's there that's going to get the votes. I totally agree.

[00:45:24] I want to be clear, like, you're 100% on the money. But what I think I'm imagining in my head is Aubrey should feel confident with Rizzo around. Jonathan and Joe should not feel confident with Rizzo around. I think a final three, and also those guys are crazy if they don't see Aubrey as the threat. Now that we're in threat land where everyone's just getting rid of threats rather than seeing the shield potential of having the other people around. But now that Seri and Devins are gone, yeah, Aubrey, of course, is the person on the beach.

[00:45:53] And Tiff for having gone to this dominant. Tiff's got a great underdog story. So I see Tiff and Aubrey as being in a lot of trouble from Joe, Rizzo, and Jonathan who've been on the same side of some votes. But I think this idea that Jonathan and Joe might feel safe with Rizzo, I don't know. I mean, like, Joe's story going in was like, you know, compared to Rizzo. Because Rizzo can go, I took Ozzy out. It was ultimately my play to take Ozzy out because I could have warned him and I didn't, right?

[00:46:22] Like, especially if Aubrey's not around in that final three, I think he can take full credit for that. And whereas for someone like Joe being like, every day I woke up and I hit that beach and I hated Rick Devins as hard as I could. And that way I was, I, nobody here put in the work I put in frowning at Rick Devins, okay? I was making fun of him. I was just talking about, you know, like, I don't know. I literally don't know. Like, people should be, I think they should be worried about Rizzo.

[00:46:49] Because I don't know what the other, I don't know what the case is otherwise. Yeah. And Rizzo, the thing about him, I think that he could really talk a good game in the final three. This is a guy who played in like a million like online survivor games and is just like really is born to do this stuff. He is not a survivalist.

[00:47:15] He is not somebody who I think has really endeared himself to some of the old school players who really value his being a hard worker around camp. He doesn't play the game that way. I think that he's set up really well for the third time he plays survivor. I just don't see it as much in this group. I fully defer to your knowledge, wisdom, and judgment here. I think that, look, I'm wrong all the time. I just, I'd be surprised.

[00:47:45] I don't see it. It's very, I think that it's the, maybe what's, maybe what's rubbed me the wrong way about it is the certainty. It's, you know what I mean? Like, I've, I feel like I've been surprised at jury selections a lot, you know, and like, and also individual jurors, like what they care about or don't care about. Like, I would say, I think that, that Rizzo's winning path is Jonathan and Joe. He's going to like, okay, it's going to be, we're going to bro down.

[00:48:13] And I think then Joe, I think could be the zero vote finalist there. And then I think it's between Rizzo and Jonathan. And I think that Jonathan is going to have obviously coach and Chrissy and Stephanie. And, you know, but also Joe's there now, Joe's stealing votes from Jonathan. And so, you know, does, does Sari and D and, and Christian and Rick, do they, do they vote for Rizzo? Yeah. But well, here's my thing with that, right? Am I misremembering?

[00:48:42] Jonathan and Joe wrote down all their names. Joe said, I'm not going to write coach's name down on principle. He wrote coach's name down. They made him, he wrote down Chrissy's name and they made him go back and write down coach's name too. Well, I don't know, man. Protest, threaten to walk. Say I'll medevac myself. I'll go get bitten by a snake in the jungle. You'll have to pull me. You know, it's like, but you know what I'm saying?

[00:49:06] That it's a, it's a, I think that there's a funny, like, maybe I don't understand how the old school alliance works. Because it is a, there is a classic trend in Survivor of people talking about honor and integrity and snaking each other super hard. And then trying to talk more about honor and integrity later.

[00:49:26] But like, like, do you think Chrissy and coach and Steph look at Jonathan and Joe and go, even though you wrote our names down, it's all in the game. But then don't look at Rizzo or Tiff or Aubrey on a different alliance and go, yeah, but for you, it's not all in the game because you weren't my alliance member. Listen, jury members are fickle and they are going to bend the rules for whatever they want to do.

[00:49:55] And it's like, okay, well, those guys are my friends. I understand they had to do what they had to do. They weren't the deciding vote. They just wanted to go with the numbers. We get it. You know, they'll look the other way for those guys. We're not going to blame them for what happened. But is there, is there, how transparent is that on the island? Like, in other words, it's just so funny to me because the idea of the move to be like, dude, I love you like a brother.

[00:50:24] This is where the numbers are going and I got to do right by me. Does that convince the person? And more importantly, does it convince anyone back at the beach? Like, I'm trying to think of if I have a winning coalition, we go out. I know that these other three people are tight and two of them peel off to vote with me. Do I get back in the dark at the beach and go, hey, what you guys did was awesome. I love that you snaked your friend and I love that you did it opportunistically most of all. Like, does that work?

[00:50:53] Do people like that? I don't know. For me, I'm very much in Devons' camp as I am in all things. Yeah. It's a really fair point. I don't know how much it buys you, but I do think that it sort of gives you a little bit of a head start of not being the person who wrote the other person's name down. So you are not on the record of casting a vote against somebody who stayed. Right. That's a great point. That's a great point in that it's not that you are staying.

[00:51:23] It's not about the fact that you're writing their name down. You're like, I really don't want to write a name down of someone I will be seeing later tonight. Like Rick. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. We applaud him for not voting out Emily, but it also gets Sari is hot with Rick Devons when they come back to camp of like, so Rick, you write my name down? You're trying to get me out? Yeah.

[00:51:46] So it's more about not pissing off the next person as opposed to that, you know, you're just like going to like, hey, this is my perfect record. I'm voting out the person who's going home. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. I get that. Yeah. Not pissing that. Yeah. You can't avoid pissing off whoever you actually choose to write their name down. Because you're the next to go. Yeah. Brennan, I'd love to get your take on there's been a lot of reactions to some of the twists that we've done here.

[00:52:15] What has been your reaction to seeing the celebrity innovations in season 50? I'm really hoping we get to see more of Zach Brown in the finale. I think they should bring him back. I feel like I didn't get enough. I didn't get enough. I didn't get enough. I honestly, the consummate showman, they left us wanting more. I was like, there's still more to learn about Zach. There's still more to learn about Zach here.

[00:52:46] No, I think that the, well, the only thing that I would say is you should either back off or push forward. The amount of times people were like, my Billie Eilish boomerang idol. I either want them, just like let them call it an idol after the first time they say, like after the first time they say Billie Eilish boomerang idol. Be like, my idol bounces back to someone.

[00:53:11] But, or include the producer correcting the cast away. I want to see a person being like, so I got this idol, Billie Eilish boomerang idol. Sorry, my Billie Eilish boomerang idol. I would, because then you have to have a bit of a sense of humor about the product placement of it all. Sari had a confessional during the season and you really, you got from Sari that they had gone over it with her like four or five times that she is like,

[00:53:40] so they told me about the Billie Eilish boomerang idol. Boomerang idol. Yeah. Now, did you, yeah, the weird, did you see when Billie Eilish talked about the Billie Eilish boomerang idol with Amy Poehler? Did you see that clip? I did. What was that? Was Billie, was Billie trying to be like, you got to chill. Was, I forget what the, what the content, I didn't see the full clip, but I saw her talking to Amy Poehler. Yeah. She was talking to Amy Poehler.

[00:54:08] She was kind of giving the impression that she didn't, she didn't really know a lot about it. Scandalous. Yeah. Absolutely scandalous. I'll tell you what, man, I would have, if it was the, if it was the, the, the dropout.tv boomerang idol, we would have, we would, you'd find us on Amy Poehler's podcast really singing its praises. Really singing its praises. So that's all I can say. Yeah. Uh, so what would the Brennan Lee Mulligan idol do? Well, God, what did we see? We saw Zac Brown. We saw the Billie Eilish.

[00:54:37] We saw the Jimmy Fallon. Yes. Ooh, boy. Poor Christian. Um, uh, we, uh, and then the Mr. Beast. The Jimmy Fallon one in the urn advantage. The one in the urn advantage. Yes. Or disadvantage, depending. Um, what would my, what would my advantage be? It's really interesting. Uh, of the ones this season that I've really enjoyed. I think as a dungeon master, right?

[00:55:06] I love to give players agency, right? So I think things that, that just happen or occur to players are always a little bit less fun than me. I love the elements of the bear advantage where you take a risk and there's either a tremendous sort of reward or not. So I actually think that the coin flip really worked because I think that a lot of people were like, agree that it would have been catastrophic if it had come up. Oh, for sure.

[00:56:02] Everybody go home. That's it. Good night, everybody. Yeah. Good night. I bet we would have seen it unfold after that. Yeah, it could have been some good drama that would have come out of that. But it would have been, I think, unsatisfying. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And then it coming up heads. I was, I was, uh, away for work watching that episode in, uh, an Italian villa at some crazy hour of night because of the time zone differences. And what a flex. Uh, yeah.

[00:56:30] Hey, I try, I have to travel for work sometimes. Um, and, uh, that coin flip hit and I, I leapt out of my bed and I think awakened some of my fellow hotel guests. And I do apologize for that. I was amped to a level. I can't, when Rick, you could see it in his eyes right away. He's like, I'm born. I was born for this. I was born for this. How many players in the history of the show would have flipped that coin? You know what I mean? Like, I guess Aubrey thought about it, but to watch him be like, and I think like, yeah, he thought he was at risk.

[00:56:59] Rick could have been captaining a full alliance with a totally secure place in the game. And I believe he would have gotten up to flip that coin. I really do. I think that's who he is, man. Um, I, I would love to make an advantage that was something like that, that, that really is, you don't have to do this. And doing this will either like eject you from the game in some way, or it will, uh, give you some other huge advantage.

[00:57:28] Like I love the idea of, um, I've, I've really enjoyed the advantages where someone has the pros and cons of, skipping a tribal council where it's like, it's an immunity at the expense of participating in the vote. Those kinds of trade-off advantages I really love because they're highly strategic. You have to really go taking a vote away from my allies and friends versus seeing tomorrow.

[00:57:55] And that to me is, I love those kinds of crunchy advantages where you go, it's not a surefire thing either way. Brennan, as someone who is a dungeon master and, uh, very familiar with the dragons, uh, are you a fan of Coach? I, here's the thing, man. Me and Coach have some things in common. I believe that we both own several swords and that's, I'm pretty sure.

[00:58:24] But it is, you know, there's like a legendary moment of like Tyson talking to Coach about like how he's perceived at tribal council.

[00:58:36] And I think that there is a, you know, in terms of the dragon slayer of it all, I think there's something in Coach going back to these like ancient wisdoms from like Marcus Aurelius or Lao Tzu or other things like that. I'm a philosophy major.

[00:58:56] Like I love these individuals and I can see it and, and admire how much Coach loves them, which is why it's so deeply frustrating when it's like Marcus Aurelius, the stoic, let our emotions not conquer us. Who told, who told the plan? And you go like you, you, it's, there's a line in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where Mac is talking to Charlie.

[00:59:19] And I don't know if you watch the show, but, but it's, it's a great, it's Max talking to Charlie and Mac goes, I'm going to roundhouse kick this mirror off this car. And he goes to round kick and he can't at all. He can't get up there to do it at all. And then Charlie goes, if you like karate so much, take one class. You got to take a class. If you like, you talk about karate all the time. You cannot kick this mirror off this thing. I think that my, my experience as a viewer, and again, I don't know these people for me to speak out in this way.

[00:59:48] But the thing I always come back to watching coach is I go like, you love these quotes and they don't seem to be hitting the, they don't, the impact of the quote. I'm hearing the quotes, the impact of the quotes doesn't appear to be manifesting behaviorally in any way that I can see.

[01:00:10] And that's, that's, you know, you know, we all fall short of our aspirations from time to time, but that's my take on, on the dragon of it all. Yeah. There's a Seinfeld episode where Jerry's trying to rent a car and they tell him that they have the reservation, but they don't have the car. And he said, anybody could just take the reservations. It's, you gotta hold the reservation is really, that's the key part. Hold, yeah. Hold the reservation. Yeah, totally. That's my, that's my take on that.

[01:00:39] Anybody could just take them. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I would love, as someone who tries to draw a lot of wisdom from stories of slaying dragons, it's a bummer when someone's really into the stories and not the wisdom contained in the stories.

[01:00:55] And so as someone who writes stories about dragons and tells stories about dragons, I'm always really hoping that the underlying message is communicated would be a true bummer to be like, and that is the tale of conquering the dragon of insecurity in ourselves. And for someone to go, got it, kill any dragons. Thanks boss. And I go, no, no, the metaphor, we've lost it. The deeper wisdom, it's gone.

[01:01:19] You know, coach seemed to have so much goodwill from the contestants coming back and starting this season, where when you listen to any of the preseason interviews, people are like, oh my God, I'm so excited. Coach is here. We're going to play with him. And it seemed like that people love the idea of him being sort of like this sage, wise master coming along with them on this journey. But then in practice, they didn't love the experience so much.

[01:01:47] Based off of the show, I'm sure that individually, they all had a great time. Being in tight quarters with people requires a lot of humility and a lot of self-awareness. And that's when you're not starving and unshowered, right?

[01:02:08] Like any close quarters with people requires a lot of humility, a lot of self-awareness, and really putting serious thought into other people's experience of you as a person. And I think that that quality is not possessed by everybody in equal share.

[01:02:27] And Survivor as a microcosm of the country and the world shows that, shows that there are very differing levels and that self-awareness is a really useful skill to have in a highly social game. Brennan, would you ever consider applying for Survivor? If they do one where they, if they move from Fiji to like the, to like the north coast of Ireland. Yes.

[01:02:55] If it's a boggy, misty, I can't be in the sun. Yeah. I'm an Irish, I'm an Irish fella with fair skin. And I know they got the SPF out there, but I get toasty. And so I don't. Well, how about the traders? Is that something that would be interesting to you? I, you know what? It's really funny. Potentially. But can I ask the, I watched a very early season of the traders and I was left.

[01:03:25] It might've changed intervening seasons. And I know that you've done it and a bunch of my friends at Bob, the drag queen, who's an amazing, incredible performer. Bob has been a player on dimension 20. Bob is one of the greatest performers of all time. And, and I did a tremendous job there. And, um, but I haven't watched it in a, in a minute. When I watched the earlier season, I've sort of felt like there wasn't, I don't know how much game there was there. I, where I wanted to be like, how do you like discover stuff and the challenges?

[01:03:55] It made it feel very much like, oh, this is very, like the voting felt to me in a frightening way, like a popularity contest. It felt very like, oh, it's, you know, like, it's pretty much like this. Yeah. Maybe one person has like, uh, like some like social deduction of this person did this, but usually they're wrong. It's like, so I saw this person took two eggs at breakfast and only a trader would take two eggs. It's like, okay, that's it. Yeah.

[01:04:24] That's sort of my vibe with it as well. And as someone, I used to run mafia all the time. The classic vote someone out one at a time kind of game. And the, the, the, the fun parts of that, of those games, those, those like elimination games is when the game interfaces with the voting, where there are mechanics that lets you know things about people or see when someone's coming or have that secret role or certain abilities.

[01:04:51] And I mean, in survivor, it really comes down to like alliance building and the immunity, like the idols, immunity challenges, right? It's not that people, there's not secret murderers in survivor, but there are still every single mechanic, every game element ties back to tribal council and the vote. And I think that that's like, uh, I would be very bashful walking into something where Dorinda Medley just doesn't like the cut of my jib and I go home. You know, that would be tough for me.

[01:05:17] Yeah. Uh, you know, you mentioned Bob the drag queen and I'm reminded of Monet exchange who played in the traders, uh, with me, who I believe is also a D and D player, uh, dimension 20, uh, veteran. But I, I bring up Monet because I watched how you recently played in jeopardy against Monet exchange. I did. I've recently played jeopardy.

[01:05:43] It was tough. I, the, the, I won't lie. It was pop culture, which was a surprise to me. I was ready for some like regular jeopardy. I was, I was like, give me a question about, about Rousseau. Give me a question about the, the amphispano or the basilisk, you know, like I'm ready. Uh, but it was, it was such a joy. It was a real hoot to play those buzzers, man. If you ever go and do it, I'm telling you the, I don't know. Have you done it? Maybe you have done it. I have not played jeopardy. I would love to, but I have not.

[01:06:11] You, you'd be great at it. And it's that buzzer dude. They tell you to buzz when the lights go on. Malarkey. Yeah. Malarkey buzz as soon as he's done talking. Yes. Okay. How did your jeopardy match go? I won. I got, I got, thank you very much. Plaque jeopardy plaque up there on the upper shelf. Very small.

[01:06:34] Small. Um, uh, but yes, we have the, um, it was a, it was a hoot, man. It was really fun. And my whole, I don't know if you know this about me, but my, my entire career only happens because I won some money. I want a bunch of money on who wants to be a millionaire. You know, I, so I have to say that in, um, in, in trying to brush up for this interview, I think I saw something about who wants to be a millionaire. I did not go down that rabbit hole, but tell me about that.

[01:07:03] When I, when I was young, struggling comedian, I went on who wants to be a millionaire. I won $50,000 utterly and completely life changing beyond, beyond measure. What year was this? 2015. Okay. So post Regis, who was the host? Meredith Vieira? Chris Harrison. Oh, I didn't even know that that was in on his, on his CV.

[01:07:28] Yes. Chris Harrison was the host. He really kept hitting that I was single. Like, you know how they, in those game shows, they take one part of like what's going on with your life. So they're like, so you have two poodles. What's that? What's it like to have two poodles? And for me, it was that I was single. Yeah. And I kept being like, we're really hitting this. I don't think it's that unusual. You can take the guy out of The Bachelor, but you can't take The Bachelor host out of the guy. You know what I mean?

[01:07:54] It never really felt that way. I was like, God damn, we're ringing this gong a lot. It was great. And it totally changed my life. I would not have been able to move to California and I would not have gotten the job at College Humor or Dropout without that money. It totally changed my life. I paid, I paid back my boss who had loaned me some money. I paid back my student loan debts. I paid back medical debt. It was, it was huge. That's really incredible.

[01:08:19] Thanks, man. These, these game shows, they're really helpful, man. It's a, it's sort of the only safety net America has. And so that's really nice too. That's really, yeah. Forget GoFundMe. Forget GoFundMe. Who wants to be a millionaire? You know, who wants to be a millionaire in, in my personal story was the, when I was in college in 2000, I was looking for, I had to write a senior thesis paper and I had put it off for about a year.

[01:08:47] And I ended up, I was a communications major at Oswego and I ended up writing my paper on the impact of reality television about how, who wants to be a millionaire and survivor? We're going to change broadcast television. And so that was really about how, who wants to be a millionaire really paved the way for survivor to come along.

[01:09:10] Yeah. That's, that's wild. It's, it's a, it's really, it's really exceptional. And I mean, like, I don't know, it's very funny to think about that, that connection and correlation of like how important that show was to me personally.

[01:09:25] Yeah. And you know, it's, it's, they're all, it's such a funny thing about all of the ways in which participating in, in these shows like leads to this version of life. That's such a, the way it's impacted all of us. Dude, it's very, the, the, even thinking about like how much joy this show has brought to like me and my wife and the, the moments of triumph. And it's just very, I don't know, it's very human, man. It's a beautiful thing.

[01:09:54] I think it's like, I've had such a ball talking with you about this stuff because you realize it's so human, man. It's like, were you, how ahead of the curve did you feel at the time writing that in 2000 and we said 2002? It was, it was 2000 flat out. It was the fall of 2000.

[01:10:15] Um, because I feel like at that time period, there were people that were trying, that were still people trying to like poo poo the, the entire genre of like reality or whatever you want to call it. Games has been around for a long time, but like something about reality television. There was something that the people and my, my wife is a huge Bravo, like real housewives fan. We love survivor. We, you know, we watch alone. I don't know if you've, if you've watched alone at all. Like it's, it's like. Usually watch it with people. What's that?

[01:10:48] Watch parties. I can't. I get too into it. Um, uh, I, I turn people off. I get too into it. Um, but yeah, it's an, I think in 2001, that's an incredible call to make, to see the impact that these shows are going to have. Like it, it's incredibly impactful. Yeah. So I want to know some of your other favorites. Uh, I've only been limited to season 50, but I'm sure that you must have some other, uh, all time favorite survivor players.

[01:11:16] Uh, well, I'll give, so Jeremy Collins, Kim Spradlin, Yul Kwan, uh, uh, we're lucky. You must have loved winners at war.

[01:11:28] I did. Well, it was, you know, like it was a, there were parts of that that I really loved. We have a framed portrait that we, I hired an illustrator to make for my wife that has Sandra Diaz twine saying queen stays queen adios. It's in our home. And queen does stay queen. Shout out. Parve, obviously the, uh, uh, and I'll be honest. Hear more about this portrait. So what is Sandra doing in the portrait?

[01:11:58] Looking beautifully at the horizon. Sorry. It, on the top, it's a speech bubble with her saying, as long as it ain't me. And then underneath on a banner held aloft by tropical birds, it says queen stays queen adios. Um, uh, beautiful. We're very, it's beautiful. Much like Sandra Diaz twine. Belongs in a museum. Uh, if, if Sandra wants it, I'll get a copy to her. Um, uh, Jonathan Penner, who's also actually a friend of the family, a friend of Izzy's family.

[01:12:28] And, uh, is a John Penner. Yes, dude. Penner. One of the best of all time, man. I love Penner. It's crazy. You look at, by the way, I, every once in a while, you look at a season and you go like cook islands, man.

[01:12:45] What? What? Like Penner, Parv, Ozzy, Yule. It's crazy, man. I mean, I, too, talky. It's legendary. Um, and I'll be honest, man. And I promise I'm not doing this because I'm on your show. My number one hero when I was a kid, Rob Sesternino. Amazon. No kids should listen to me.

[01:13:05] Uh, dude, I'm telling you, man, because I had, uh, like the way I've talked about Devin's on this show and my identification with him when I was a kid, like you're, you're playing in Amazon when I felt like my wits were all I had and were also a liability.

[01:13:26] And I saw, you know, like you see sometimes people achieve social advantage effortlessly. And, you know, like in a certain way, like, like, I think Parv and Sarit are some of the best TV ever. It's legendary. It's legendary. But also when I look at Parv and Sarit and how they play the game, I go, I wouldn't have the first clue about how to do that. Yeah.

[01:13:51] That, Sarit getting on that beach and going, here's the play. I will never, ever get close to that. That's as close to you being a wizard as is possible for me to imagine. And it's why Rick's game spoke to me so much because I see that his place in the Pantheon. It's like, yeah, there's all these Olympic gods, but I am a sailor and that's Poseidon.

[01:14:15] And for me, it's like, there's all these, these survivor players in the Pantheon, but I'm me and that's Rick Devins. That's the game that I adore. And that's the type of player I would aspire to be. And if anyone wants to watch dropout.tv, you can see a very poor imitation of Rick Devins, brilliant play. And that for me, that was you, man. When I was a kid, I went, that's, if I was suddenly on a beach, I'd play like Rob. Yeah.

[01:14:42] That's how I'd want to play. And it's, it's the fucking best, man. It's, it's the, uh, uh, it's your, your game. I was obvious like, like, like, I, I think I told my mom, we can never watch survivor again when your season, when, when, at, at the end, when you were not in the final two, I was like, well, this is bullshit. Turn it all off. I was like, oh, you're so right. But if it's, it's, it's, it's.

[01:15:10] And look at us now, 44 seasons later, people say the same thing. It's like nothing that comes after this is, is I have, I have zero interest in it. And, uh, but it's very funny though, because I will say, I think I did like take a, take a break for a long time afterwards. Cause I was, I identified with you so much and I was like, that's my, I was like, that's me. That's my guy.

[01:15:32] Yeah. Um, and it was, I think it was a hugely influential game as well, because I feel like that the, it was so, it's so cool to go back to those older era seasons and watch the development of like ideas and vocabulary that, that get established.

[01:15:49] And now they get inherited by new players where you almost hope that's like, there should be like a survivor history class on the plane to Fiji where it's like, okay, you use the term shields. You use the term threat. You're talking about playing the middle. You're talking about Alliance. You're talking about this and that. Here's the originate. Here's the, the inventors. Like go back and find it. Open the schools. Open the schools, folks. That's right. Yeah. I, yeah, I could go on, but there's, I, there's a ton of, I, there are so many legendary players who I really,

[01:16:19] I really, I really do appreciate all of the kind words and you know, uh, you know, my personal history is, uh, one of not having a lot of friends as somebody, uh, growing up through most of my life. So I, I really, uh, when I got to survivor and was, you know, doing okay socially, uh, nobody was having more fun than me.

[01:16:43] I love that, man. And you could tell that's what it was like. There was a, there was a, when you were playing in Amazon, there was a glee about the game itself. Yeah.

[01:16:56] And there are some players, even some very notable players where as the game is happening around them, they look like pissed off. They're like the hell are people playing survivor out here? And that was never you man. Like whether, whether the move happened or it didn't, or whether someone who was, we didn't want to get immunity, got it or didn't get it or whatever else.

[01:17:15] It was like the love of the game was fucking pure, man. It was always right there. And that's, uh, it's great storytelling, man. It's great TV to the part of this, which is showing humanity to other humans for their appreciation and enrichment and enjoyment. Uh, I think that's a huge part of it. I do see the connective tissue between you and Rick in that regard.

[01:17:38] Yeah. I never thought of it that way. Uh, but it's, uh, so cool to have you frame all of this and it's been such a joy to hear you talk about survivor. Dude, uh, it's, this conversation is happening 24 seven in my house. Me and is are comparing notes. We're going back and forth again, Isabella Roland. You should have her on. She's, she's so delightful and amazing. I love it. I love it. And, uh, she, you know, we, we just love this so much.

[01:18:07] And maybe one day when my career torpedoes and hits the mountainside, I'll spend a few years getting a little bit less, uh, notorious in nerd circles. And I'll finally send in my application. I'll head out to the beach. Maybe that'll happen. Okay. Keep your fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Or Jeff do an all nerd celebrity season in the playing fields. Even, um, Monet will play.

[01:18:36] Dude. Oh, Monet, Monet, Zoom Alliance. Monet, hit me up. We'll do a Zoom Alliance. But you and me, Bob will hit the beach with their feet running already. You're the odd person out with you and Monet and Bob. I think they have a pretty interesting relationship. Why? Because I'm not a beautiful drag queen, Rob. You never see me done up. I'll get the lipstick on, man. I'll hit the beach. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll get in shape. I think they do argue. I think they do get into some arguments.

[01:19:00] Their podcast sibling rivalry is so funny. Bob and Monet have like the best, their, their comedic chemistry is off the charts. They're so good. See, anytime they're incredible as individual performers and I love their chemistry together. Brennan, can I ask you for, if somebody has listened to this conversation and wants to know more about what you do, do you have any sort of like gateway type podcasts or videos that people could check out to acclimate to the D&D world?

[01:19:27] Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll say if people are interested in the D&D world, the entire first season of Dimension 20 is available on YouTube. It's called Fantasy High is the first season we did. It's a John Hughes high school with fantasy adventurers.

[01:19:45] So it's like the, the jock is a half elven fencer, the nerd, like the nerdy prep girl is a wizard. And that's on YouTube. It's called Fantasy High. The very first episode is called The Beginning Begins. You can see me with looking a little bit more youthful with longer sideburns in that one.

[01:20:03] And, uh, we also talked, we've been talking about Bob and Monet. Uh, if you go to dropout.tv and sign up for a free trial, you can watch Dungeons and Drag Queens, which we play with Bob and Monet, who you might know from the traders. Uh, you watch, uh, Bob and Monet along with Alaska and Jujubee as an incredible four person drag queen team learning to play D&D in a D&D adventure live on camera. And that one's a real hoot too.

[01:20:31] Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, Brennan, anything else you want people to check out? You can find me at Brennan Lee Mulligan on Instagram, uh, Brennan Lee Mulligan on Blue Sky, uh, dropout.tv, uh, is where you can find a bunch of amazing comedy. Uh, you can also see me. I do, I do improv stuff there. Can you explain what dropout.tv is? Because, uh, that, you know, dropout.tv is different than, uh, what you do with Dimension 20 because it's, it's improv, right?

[01:21:00] So dropout is the platform we're on. You can find dropout on all your social media channels. You can find it on YouTube, but all our best stuff is on dropout.tv, which you can go to it in your browser. It's also available like as an app on like your Roku or smart TV. You can go get the dropout app. Um, and what it is, is it's like, uh, our CEO, who's an incredible comedian himself, Sam Reich, in our announcement video said,

[01:21:26] it's Netflix, but worse and cheaper. And we stand by that promise. Dropout is awesome improv comedy. And it's got a show called game changer where it's a game show where the rules of the game change every single episode. It's got a show called make some noise. Like, like season 50 of survivor. Exactly. Uh, dropout.tv is a home to my favorite comedy on the planet. My, my coworkers are, I think the funniest living people.

[01:21:56] Um, and you can head over there to, to find that, uh, uh, there's a free trial. I really recommend it. I stand by all our work. We do amazing. I also have very important people hosted by Vic Michaelis. That's incredible, which is incredible makeup artists put comedians in insane makeup and roll you into a chair. You look at yourself in a mirror and you start improvising, not knowing what you looked like. And you just have to make a character and go.

[01:22:24] So it's so fun. Everything we do there is such a blast and a joy. Uh, you can find that there. Um, you can also head over to critical role, uh, where I am running campaign for over there. And that is a more classic high fantasy adventure. That's like epic stakes and heroes. There's a bunch of amazing voice actors over there that do an absolutely incredible job. We're having such a joy with this heroic adventure in the world of Aramon with magic and sorcery and sword play.

[01:22:53] Uh, and you can also check out if you're more of a podcast person. Uh, we do a podcast called worlds beyond number, which is also incredible sci-fi and fantasy adventure storytelling in audio format with I, which I do with a Bria Iyengar, Lou Wilson and Erica Ishii. Yeah. All right. Well, congratulations on everything you're doing and really appreciate you making time to talk about this season 50 ride with us as we get ready for the finale real quick. Nick, who's your winner prediction? Who's crowned the winner of survivor 50?

[01:23:25] Um, Tiff. Tiffany. I think it's gonna be Tiff. Okay. That was my winner pick going into the season. Oh, nobody will be more excited than me. That was your pick going into the season was Tiff? The only downside of Tiffany winning is that that was my winner pick, but also my wife's winner pick. So I won't even get credits. I'll, I'll be like, finally, I picked the first winner since Denise Stapley. But my wife would be like, but I also picked her.

[01:23:50] I think Tiff has a chance to get immunity as a better, as the best chance she's gotten the most immunities this season, I believe. And I think that Aubrey's gonna scan as a bigger threat or should Aubrey should scan as a bigger threat. And I think the, I, the likelihood of Aubrey going out at five or four is quite high.

[01:24:12] Okay. All right. We'll see what happens. We'll have interviews from the red carpet for the survivor 50 finale and a full recap here on RHAP. Thank you for joining us. Take care of a good one. Bye.