Andy Rueda Post-Season Interview | Survivor 47

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back here and we've got an amazing interview here today to talk with a guy who went from somebody who we thought maybe was gonna be out early to maybe then was gonna win. He's all that. Our own baby Andy, Andy Reyna. Andy, how are you?

[00:00:24] Rob, it is so good to talk to you and like I think people know that we've known each other for a few years but just for me the idea when I got cast on Survivor a huge part of the dream is that you go far enough and do enough things that you get a deep dive so yeah this is one of these more you know full circle moments. Here we are wish fulfilled for me as well so happy to get the chance to talk some more after the season everything's good? Everything is great I'm having an amazing.

[00:00:52] Rob Cesternino Okay, we got so much to get to so I guess let's let's just go back to your early days and of course you're the such a big focus of everything going on in the first couple days leading to the emotional moment. What do you want to tell us about that time? Rob Cesternino Yeah, I think we could just skip right to that moment itself which it's not something I talk about too often but there's like kind of a lot to get to now that I sort of have thought about it. I mean first of all, I do think that what might be lost a little bit is just kind of the physical component.

[00:01:50] Rob Cesternino Rob Cesternino That was like a whole 24 hour lead up to that panic but I think in my head what I was experiencing was a huge amount of like kind of like relief almost where I was like I just if I do nothing right now I'm in my head I'm definitely gonna be the first one out. Rob Cesternino So like I just need to kind of shake things up and I just want to like externalize everything that I have been feeling these past 24 hours.

[00:02:16] Rob Cesternino And if I can explain why I'm being sketchy or explain my behavior maybe that gives enough context to the decision makers Sam, Sierra, Rachel, and Annika that you know he's just he was oh he was experiencing that he's not trying to be over strategized or anything like that.

[00:02:33] Rob Cesternino So that was like what I was going for it obviously it was not great you know what I mean like it wasn't kind of what I thought it was but and then the only other thing is that I said I was gonna throw jump over the bus.

[00:02:48] Rob Cesternino I would not recommend that move that was kind of the worst thing I said but I think what I was going for there was I knew that those four others were making the decision and I knew I was kind of dropping a bomb and I was kind of like in the moment I was like well if I kind of make it seem like this bomb is targeted toward John then it kind of neutralizes my threat to them and so that was what was going on but like I said on a deeper level just like I don't know fuck it Rob like it happened it happened you know it happened like

[00:03:18] there's nothing much more to say about it like it wasn't one of my better days but like you know. Rob Cesternino It was the inciting incident of your whole journey and you come back and then were you really feeling a lot of threat in terms of that you were going to be going home at that first tribal council when you got back? Rob Cestern Of course I was feeling the heat because I had by the time I was back at camp I was more back to my senses and I'm like yikes that was like whatever I did there was like it

[00:03:47] made it worse for me not better but at the same time what was good was I kind of did feel back to normal and kind of that was a sort of a something I kind of needed to do just to get all that out and so I was like back to having the ability to strategize to just protect myself from the first vote. I mean long story short I don't know I really just pitched myself to Sam and Sierra I said I'll be a number for you going forward and they're like thumbs up and so John went.

[00:04:13] Rob Cestern Okay so this is the beginning of a long story so we now see you having to sort of like find a spot at GATA in terms of you know for people that are you know clearly or maybe not so clearly aligned in ways that don't include you. So let us know a little bit more about your thought process during this time.

[00:04:36] Rob Cestern Yeah well it became very clear to me especially coming out of that vote that I survived which was first of all a huge relief and really just reset me as a player right. But I knew that they were in an alliance that there was like a four person alliance that started immediately in the game for sure. But I also felt like I had enough knowledge about where Sam and Sierra's heads were really at particularly Sam's that I felt like I had I was a player kind of on the bottom for sure with almost zero options.

[00:05:02] But I had one game plan that really lasted that entire week. And so I was just putting all my eggs in one basket which is basically it was like keep Sam and Sierra on side and make sure Rachel and Annika just believe I have no game going on. That was it was just operation get out of GATA. And so it was one game plan which definitely helped narrow my thinking and clarify and like helps me come like you know make the decisions in the moment.

[00:05:27] And so while while people in other positions maybe this wouldn't be a good move for me the simple it was very simple like whenever I got any information I would just feed it to Sam. And like whenever I got something I would feed it to Sam whether it's the beware advantage whether it was some other bits of information. I felt like if I just put all my invest all my energy into that three I can survive the next vote because it was clear to me that there were cracks among the four of them.

[00:05:54] What did you think happened to the beware advantage you you find it and then you then go back to it and then you let Sam know I think that one of the girls have it. Yeah. So first of all I was really at that early stage that was day four but even by then I was feeling pretty confident that I tentatively did have Sam and Sierra's votes. So it was important for me to just not risk that position and the worst thing I could do is lose my vote and now they can't save me and I'm going to go home for like having to do you know.

[00:06:24] And then if I were to grab it and keep it a secret I would do all the missions by myself. I just it made more sense for me to leave it in the hours between I did have a strategic combo with Sierra which was like give me like maybe feel a lot worse about where her head was at. So that made me go look for the beware advantage. But now I knew once it was gone one of the good things was like baked into my initial decision was at the very least it's information.

[00:06:47] So if I want it and it's not there at least I know that someone has it and I can just go run tell that to Sam. And I think it worked out pretty much how I did envision it where he that really kind of was currency that sort of that built it with Sam. So I didn't really know I initially did think it was that Annika had it or Rachel may have had it.

[00:07:14] But it wasn't until right before the merge where I started kind of like opening up my mind as to who could have had this thing. But it was like all the advantage in this game pretty much kind of like a running mystery that I was never able to find out who had what. Well you did know where one advantage was where you end up going on a journey and getting your hands on the three way shared amulet.

[00:07:40] But it's not something that ended up being a big part of the game and seemed like something that you maybe wanted to get rid of as soon as possible. I mean yeah like especially with the three of us now I was chosen to go on that journey through random draw. But once I was put in that position I wanted to pick the right people to go with me and so I handpicked Caroline and Tini to go with me on the journey. I was kind of just feeling best about them.

[00:08:08] I had this like inkling that they were fans as well. And so when we talked and we were on the journey and the amulet presented itself to us I felt very confident that we would be aligned philosophically with like how these amulets like should be used. Which is basically not gun for each other and find out find a way to use it like as a way to build trust. And I think that really that did work out. Now it got a little bit messier once we get to Mergentory than what was shown.

[00:08:37] But for the most part I think like we were honest in the sense that like we should just kind of punt on this and not be greedy and like and gun for each other. But when we if we just want to skip to like the Mergentory so. Sure I mean is there anything else from the pre-merge and Annika and how you ended up surviving that? Well the Annika vote was a culmination of what I was saying like a week-long game plan which is one goal in mind.

[00:09:04] It's just so like build the trust with Sam and Sierra and bury Annika. So on that journey what the one thing I got that was more valuable than the amulet was like this rumor that Caroline came to me. She said Andy we've heard that Sam and Sierra are running GATA. Is that true? And that was like I played it off in the moment. But I mean what I was thinking more is like this is gold. Like I'm just going to run this back to Sam and Sierra. And they're going to hate it.

[00:09:30] They're going to hate it because Caroline got that apparently from Annika on the journey that she went. So now that like I know how everything went down I think it was a bit of an almost a miscommunication. So on that first journey Kyle had it in his mind through like maybe body language or something that Sam was definitely running GATA. Which is like true to a large extent. But he had that in his mind and then he asked Annika about the other gossip about whether or not they were in a showman. Annika like shut that down immediately.

[00:09:59] Annika just said no they're not dating but they're you know strategically tight. And then Kyle took that to mean that Sam and Sierra were running GATA and he ran that back to Tuku. And so Caroline went to me and told me. And so basically that was a really valuable piece of information that I ran to Sam and Sierra that kind of clinched me staying and Annika leaving. Even though Annika didn't like really say that. That's just how that all occurred.

[00:10:28] But then yeah Annika left and what I was going for over that week worked. And I was feeling really good going into Mergatory because I feel like. Again it was like Operation Get Out of GATA Alive because I was on the bottom I had no options. In my head if I go to Mergatory I'm going to have all these options unlocked for me. Because I have this like very large perception from the other people. But I think what wasn't really shown was.

[00:10:57] A big crucial moment was when we go to the second immunity challenge and they see that I'm still like in the game and I'm waving. There was a big pop like everyone was like loving it. They were really really happy. And so in my head I was just going to be this like real rootable underdog folk hero to the people on Lavo and Tuku. And they're really going to race to scoop me up. That was my vision for Mergatory. It did not work out that way. And so when we first get to Mergatory. And the entire Rome vote was honestly my worst round of gameplay.

[00:11:28] It was like tactically speaking it was like worse than the first one. Why? What happened? There was just a lot of little mistakes that accumulated for me. Just in terms of like knowledge of the game board and like what people were thinking. First of all I overestimated how safe I would be going into Mergatory. Because of all this stuff. I was like oh I'm a free agent. People are going to want to scoop me. But even if you look at the new era. Those are the people who are kind of in danger of Mergatory. Right? But I just felt that if I sold that I was a free agent.

[00:11:57] Which was kind of the game plan that we had agreed to going from Gada to the Mergatory. If I like pitched myself as a free agent. People would take to that. And that was kind of true. But it also made me a loose piece. And like an easy name to throw out. Especially when you go to that Merge Feast. And so I was blind to some of the danger I was in. Based off of my position. And I was a little bit too feeling too safe. And so when it came to the amulets.

[00:12:26] We had agreed that we were going to play them. My plan was to do a sort of a rock paper scissors. Like Haley League type thing. Just like a rock paper scissors. Whoever won that tournament was going to have the amulet played on them. But what I do. Did you do that at tribal or before you went to tribal? Yeah. We were going to say that before tribal. And we're going to do it at tribal. And it would implicitly protect all three of us. What I didn't realize was this whole side plot going on. I had no idea about. Where from the Merge Feast. My name came out.

[00:12:54] Team went to tell Saul that I was the other. That was the backup name. That was like accepted by this tribe. And then Saul was convinced that Rome had an idol. And he was going to play it. And he was going to write Saul's name down. So Saul was feeling very, very antsy. And he just spent all day parading my name around camp. Like will someone else vote Andy with me? Will someone else vote Andy with me? And I was just blind to all of this. And people were content to keep that for me.

[00:13:24] And I was very lax. And so that's why I was like so jaw. My jaw dropped when I got the two votes. Because I was just blind to all this. And then even when it came to the amulets. Teeny at the last second comes to me. And they're like, well, I don't want to do rock, paper, scissors. That's too overbaked. Can we just play on me? Because I sacrificed my boat. Played on me. And then I agreed to it really easily. When in reality, they did that to make me unprotected. So that I could be a backup option. So yeah, that was a...

[00:13:52] I started Mergent Ori on really the back foot. Wow. And I spent a couple rounds recovering. I think I recovered well. That was a good move. Teeny left that out. That was a great move. Teeny got one over on me that time. Yeah. I paid them back a couple times. Okay. All right. So you see your name come up at the tribal council. And you very quickly realized I'm the decoy vote. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was the first thing that came through my mind.

[00:14:17] Because backing up a little bit, when Anika left, I had one conversation with Rachel on the beach. And we were just talking. And I was like, oh, why were there four votes at this Anika tribal council? And Rachel's like, oh, Anika lost her vote on the journey. Sam and Sarah have known that the entire time. You didn't know that, Andy. And that really was the first thing that eroded my trust with Sam and Sarah. Because coming out of the vote, I was like feeling like this was a real alliance. That information was so benign. And it's like Anika's gone.

[00:14:47] And I tested them on the next day and they lied to me again. So it just felt like maybe that was the tip of the iceberg with what they were keeping from me. And then again, like who knows? Maybe they have the idol. I don't even know anymore. So I felt my trust was eroding with them. And then once Saul told me that they were throwing my name out, I felt very compelled to believe him. And so with that, that definitely woke me up. And I realized right away that the best decision I could make was to flip on Gada.

[00:15:17] Now, I did flip, but the word flip is very interesting, especially as it pertains to me. But I did feel like that was going to be the right move because I was building a lot of relationships with people in the other tribes. Sam and Sarah had basically stopped speaking with me the first couple days of Mergatory. And they know that like they were, it was kind of like they thought that was sort of the game plan. But at the same time, it's Survivor. And, you know, if you don't check in with people, then, you know, you just feel left to your own devices.

[00:15:44] But in any case, I what I envisioned and I was staying up all night, you know, I was like writing stuff in the sand that night. So what that was, was I was trying to envision and calculate like what the right majority alliance could be in this merge under the premise that I went away from Gada. And I and I'm throwing the other goddess to the minority position. What could that could look like? Who exactly would come together based off of the early relationships that had formed?

[00:16:11] So basically, and this goes right to the Sierra vote, like I feel like when we get to episode eight, like I think they show rightfully, they show kind of like the emotional catharsis of that vote for me from an emotional standpoint and rising from being, you know, the outcast to having my he's all that moment. And that was very true. But I think what I when I think about that move, I think about it from a positional standpoint.

[00:16:39] That's like what I was going for, where like, basically, if I go away from Gada and like I was saying I was not a Gada since I got there. So if I prove that I flip away from them, I am putting myself in a position where I'm in the middle of the Lavo faction, the Tuku faction and the rest of the Gada faction. And they all have their cracks. And I like I'm not part of any of these tribes. So I would become sort of like a big brother floater or something. And I like I really liked that idea for me.

[00:17:09] And I think there was some that was basically how it like shook out. Like and so with that move, it did give me safety for a really long time. And that was a huge improvement from where I was at the Rome vote. But that feeds into, you know, the the battle I was dealing with for the rest of the game, which was my perception. I mean, that was the same thing I've been battling.

[00:17:32] I was battling since day one, but like it really sort of my game and my path crystallized after the Sierra vote where it was like I'm here at the final 10 and I'm not a threat like in anyone's head. And I'm very, very safe. But that's a pro and con like as safe as you are. If you just ride rest on your laurels, like you are not going to have the perception of a winner if you get to the end.

[00:18:01] So from final 10 all the way to like what I envisioned of getting to the final three, it was just a matter of finding the right timing to develop on this perception that I had. And when we think about the or talk about the perception I had, it obviously has to start with day three. But I think things just kept happening to me or I kept doing things that were like so publicly like goofy and like flubbing.

[00:18:29] And almost all of it was not premeditated. It really wasn't. But what was intentional was whenever it happened, I kind of knew it fed into a perception about me and I would always play it off in such a way where I just it just felt like I was very unserious out there. And like, OK, well, OK, at this point in the game, maybe one of those examples is the money at the auction. Was that one of those things? A hundred percent. And that was of all the things that occurred, all of which were silly.

[00:18:58] That was kind of had the most intentionality behind it, because I mean, I'm a super fan. I love the auction. I was super excited to just go get some some tubes and some money and just like take part like everyone else. I'm like, all right, great. And then pretty soon, like I realized that like I sucked at this, too. Like I couldn't find tubes and I was struggling. And when I first looked at that table and Sierra had a bunch and I was the only one with zero, I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happening.

[00:19:25] I knew it was like perpetuating the perception. But at that point, I'm just like, well, it's because this perception is like partly true. Like this is kind of a joke. But but it was good. Like I realized the benefits of that. And then halfway through the search, I also realized that if the rules stay the same from 45, that it will be so much better to have zero tubes than one tube. So that was in my head.

[00:19:51] And so halfway through the search, I just started tanking it and just kind of like running around haphazardly. And I didn't want one tube. If I was if I was going to have a lot, I didn't want one. And that being said, I want to be fair. Like, I think everything that they did show on screen was me trying. They never showed me that really that really ridiculous one where it was like right here. I don't remember that at all. So, like, I definitely didn't see it.

[00:20:16] But it was it's like when it comes to those type of things, it's always like this like middle ground where I was like aware of it. But I didn't pre calculate any of those moments. So coming out of the Sierra vote is this big round of the game where Saul ends up going home and Genevieve ends up throwing Saul's name out there.

[00:20:38] And that really changes the whole post merge in a lot of different ways where it's really like an accelerant on in terms of, you know, Genevieve's threat level. And so where are you in all of this? Yeah, I think kind of like the inverse of the Rome vote where that was like low key, one of my worst rounds. This is like probably my second best round of gameplay, if I would have to say so. There's a lot that went on because it was a big vote and was a very critical vote.

[00:21:04] And so it starts with, I think, my relationship with Genevieve, which we saw in episode seven. And it had Genevieve and I had like a really good start to our relationship. Every that conversation that they showed in those confessionals were very real. And I definitely put stock in this potential of Genevieve being like my number one ally. That's stuff we were telling each other. But it was pretty short lived because the Saul vote was just a couple of rounds after that. And the vote really kicked off when in the middle of the day when Genevieve pitched Saul.

[00:21:35] And it was a weird sort of moment because it was exciting. I was like glad that she was bringing this to me. It felt like I was inside of a bigger move. But I felt like the logic never really added up with like why I get out Saul that day. And so like I told her maybe. And then when I thought about it, I think I came to the conclusion that like more than anything, this is just going to be a really big mistake for Genevieve and like her game. Because like it's just she is in an amazing position. She has the ability to whip up these votes and this is just going to expose that.

[00:22:05] And it's got Genevieve's name written all over it. And so this was like a turning point for me. So like, OK, am I going to like really solidify that Genevieve is my ride or die and either talk her out of this or like help her out? Or if I see her walking toward like a little trap door, like am I going to am I just going to let it happen and sort of exploit that? And I chose the latter, which was sort of the breakup between me and Genevieve.

[00:22:30] But I mean, the way I saw it was that it was just going to be a move that had Genevieve's name written all over it. And I was going to just set her up to be a big target, especially because Genevieve is very adamant that a very critical part of the move was to leave Teenie out of it. Genevieve was like, you know, I know Lava more than anyone. Like at the end of the day, Teenie and Saul are number ones. Like we can't tell Teenie.

[00:22:55] And so that was like not my favorite part of the plan because I had been working on Teenie. I think everyone is working on Teenie because Teenie is so awesome and popular. Right. So like everyone like felt close. Like that was like a really good lead. I felt the same way. I did not want to leave Teenie out on a vote. And so I was thinking about back to like my main dilemma. I'm like, OK, this is a vote that doesn't have my name on it. That's actually a good thing. But like, how can I wriggle out any agency from this move? How can I make it good for me in at least a subtle way that I can maybe talk about at a hypothetical final tribal council?

[00:23:26] And so then, you know, Sam blew up the plan and I kind of got really chaotic. And there was just like a lot of chaos and a lot of noise. But I think when the dust settled, even throughout the live tribal council, but all when the dust settled, it turned out that Rachel and I were the swing boats on that vote. And that kind of makes sense because, again, Rachel, someone that like they showed early in that said that we had patched things up. So that kind of made sense. We were in the middle. We had the ability to go this way or that way to like at the end of the day, vote out Saul or vote out Atuku.

[00:23:55] And we were openly talking about it. Sue, right? So that was kind of the problem that they were pitching Sue. It didn't make much sense. Like I was like, it should be Kyle of anyone. And like, I think that was a big issue with Saul and Sam's like collective pitch. I was just, you know, it's like Sue. That didn't feel like the right time. Hey, they were right. Nobody was talking about her. She made the final three. I know. I have a lot to say about my early sheep with Sue as well. But we'll circle back. But so Rachel and I were kind of low key to swing boats on that.

[00:24:25] So that's good in and of itself, because that's something that not everyone really clocked that that was the case. But that's something I could put in the back of my mind. If I could say that at a final trouble council. But in terms of the decision to actually make, I think Rachel and I agreed ultimately, although we considered both. We agreed that our names are already kind of our hands already dirty, like agreeing to vote out Saul and blindside him and stuff. It would be a half measure to backtrack on that. We just have to follow through and we have to vote out Saul. So we decided on that.

[00:24:54] But then I again, I was thinking about how can I make this good for me? And that definitely came down to Tini. So Tini is what can make this really good for me because Tini was about to get the wool pulled over their eyes by Genevieve for like the second time or whatever. So I made it a concerted effort to I was the one that was going to spill the beans to Tini at the tribal council. And that was going to build a special amount of trust with them. And Saul was definitely going to go.

[00:25:20] And Genevieve is going to be exposed and set up to be probably the next target. And Tini was going to be close to me. And the way it took out pretty much is exactly what went down. And so I came out of that pretty flying pretty high. You know, when my confessional start getting cocky, it was after this. So, yeah. So you said you worked with Rachel. Basically, you were the swing votes. I feel like that there's sort of like, you know, three, you know, Andy, Rachel moments in the season.

[00:25:48] You know, there is the first night of, hey, Rachel, will you talk to me? She doesn't want to talk to you. She's like, why is he waking me up? There's this one in the middle. And then there's the one at the end of your game. And so was did this feel like a turning point for you, your relationship with Rachel when you were talking about like, hey, let's let's get back on the same page? Which I was going to be possible to like kind of know what the point in the narrative that was going to be.

[00:26:15] But the way I looked at Rachel from the start, from before the game started, I and this speaks to Rachel's aura. You know what I mean? I was just like, this is my person. Like, this is like my sister. Like, I feel so such a strong pull to this woman. Like, she is going to play a huge part of my game. And it kind of like, I mean, obviously, that's what occurred. But whenever I would work against her, I was never I like until the very end.

[00:26:44] I didn't want to actually get her out of the game. I felt like because she's so rational, I felt like I could always make an argument to like rebuild trust or say why that was just a circumstance of why we couldn't be on the same page. I felt a real sort of pull toward her. And that was at its most authentic during that point period of time. So, like, again, that combo on the beach where we come back together was like 90 percent real. The 10 percent, it wasn't real.

[00:27:14] It's just the fact that I had basically committed to being like a snake. I know, like real number ones by that point in time. But it felt like a really good like I felt really good that we could come together. And it shows that, you know, Rachel bought into that as well. So I didn't. So along those lines, I didn't know at any point in the game, like who I wanted to sit next to or like who was going to be the real. I was playing like number one or number two.

[00:27:45] I was playing the kind of feel the feel at all periods of time. But Rachel just felt like very valuable to me the entire time. And then, yeah, we did come together coming out of the solve vote. I think we had a lot of trust and that, you know, that goes into the forming of the underdog five, because, again, so I had one teeny over at the solve vote and I was like really big. And so especially in Teenie's mind, I think and kind of in reality, they were the closest thing to a number one to me because I really wanted to sit next to Teenie.

[00:28:14] Not in a dismissive way or disrespectful. I just felt like my relationship with Teenie was different than my relationship with Sam or Genevieve, where it felt like they were definitely the alpha and the bigger person in front of me or whatever. So I felt like I had a really strong thing that I built with Teenie and Rachel. And so what I had in my mind was having that be a final three deal. And that really came together. And I felt good about it.

[00:28:43] I didn't feel so committed to it that I was definitely going to be loyal to it. But I felt good about it, especially because with the solve vote, I basically traded in a good alliance with Genevieve and I won with Teenie. So now Genevieve is kind of like an adversary because she knew that I was the one who spilled the beans on the plan and everything like that. So I was thinking of a final three with Teenie and Rachel, of course, is before Rachel won all the. But she was never looked at as a non threat or like someone who would like lose at a final trouble council.

[00:29:12] But anyway, I felt like a useful final three. And so all of a sudden now this is during the Kyle vote like it just seemed like all of a sudden I walked to the well with my three person alliance and it turns into a five person alliance because like Sue and Caroline were there. And it felt like this kind of like almost like a premeditated like union. Like this is going to be the alliance. We're calling ourselves the underdogs. And I think right away it just smelled like something that was like amazing for Rachel,

[00:29:42] because I think at that point I had tried to especially going off the amulets. I tried to like build a relationship with Caroline and we had kind of a working relationship, not a tight like line of communication. And then with Sue. So I felt great about Sue at the beginning because Sue and Saul in particular were the people who showed me like a lot of warmth and love after I had my panic attack and talked about my things on the mat.

[00:30:07] And like they were like really giving me amazing vibes and I felt like I would be able to work with both of them. As it turns out in the Mergentory, they were the two people who ran my name down immediately. But with Sue, I always I have to say I just always underestimated Sue. I really did. I underestimated the influence that she was able to exert on the game. And I have to give her a lot of credit. You know what I mean? Like she played on her own terms and she was able to like have her agenda work out when she needed to.

[00:30:36] And it was and it was great. But anyway, that being said, going back to the formation of Underdog 5, I didn't feel good about it. I felt like I was taking away all of these options I was trying to like build because I felt like this was a perfect endgame configuration for Rachel. I felt like I didn't have much say in this Underdog 5. I felt like I didn't have short term security because look, it was to an extent out there.

[00:31:02] I don't remember how, but it was out there that, you know, kind of women might be looking out for women. You know what I mean? So that kind of felt like I was out just on those lines. And if I were just to ride the Underdog 5 and, you know, but then survive and get to the final three, I don't feel like that was going to be a winning path for me because my whole strategy was to downplay my threat level and be this really like non-threatening sort of non-factor in people's eyes.

[00:31:31] But then use that safety to pop out at the right time and then just exert a bunch of agency that became more and more obvious, building up to like a really active endgame with a lot I could say out of Final Tribal Council. If I rode with the Underdog 5, I felt like that wasn't going to turn out good at all. And so the Kyle vote was like the real round where the Underdog 5 were kind of working together.

[00:31:56] It was kind of a test drive and it kind of didn't work out great because they weren't listening to what I was saying about getting out Genevieve instead of Kyle, right? Yeah, and you voted for Genevieve in this round. Was this just like a jury management with Kyle? It was, yeah. So my voting confessional on that vote was, I put the parchment, I was like, this is one third to protect Teenie, one third to throw Kyle a bone, and one third because I'm bored.

[00:32:22] And so it was a split vote, like, because Teenie was really worried because it was obvious that Kyle was going to vote for Teenie and be the only vote. But like, you know, what if Kyle has an idol? So that was one thing. But I think more importantly, I did have a relationship with Kyle out there that was pretty specific where I felt like he was the kind of person where I wanted to like really promise him things and then not break them on his way out the door. You know what I mean? Like, I felt like that mattered a lot to him.

[00:32:51] And I had already, like on the Gabe vote, I had promised him that we were going to get out Gabe and we're going to get out Genevieve next. So it was important for me to not only uphold that promise just for jury management purposes, but also to kind of like show him that I'm not a sheep. I think that's kind of what his thought process were, was that there were the threats and then there were the sheep. I wanted to show him that I was doing my own thing, that I was kind of true to my word and I was going to be true to him.

[00:33:20] And I had the thought that that would like earn me his respect on the door. So during planning season, jury management were obviously like on my mind as I was making it. But it was, but it was also served as a split. I obviously knew that I was going out. You mentioned your voting confessional on the Kyle vote and you had such memorable voting confessionals. And really, it's something that we don't have a lot of in the new era. I don't know if you've answered this question.

[00:33:48] The Rome voting confessional. When you spoke in German, can you give us the backstory? Well, I love the theories online. I am obsessed with them. They're so cool. In particular, there's a theory that I was speaking German of reference to the fall of Rome because of the Germanic tribes that contributed to the fall of Rome. The only thing I could say to that is as awesome as that sounds. Unfortunately, the Germanic tribes of old, like the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, they didn't speak German. They spoke Gothic.

[00:34:18] So that was like an extinct Germanic language related, but not quite German. So that kind of would have been an incoherent reference if it was that. In reality, I love languages. So my master's degree is in part in machine learning, part in linguistics, the science of language. And so I love learning language as well. I've been learning German. I have a really good friend. She's from Germany. And so I've been learning German. And I just felt like that was something.

[00:34:43] The things I wanted to express to Rome were things I couldn't be able to say in my simple, like low level knowledge of that I have of German. So I just had fun with it. I don't know. OK. OK. What about the phonetic spelling of Carolyn's name? So that's a great question. So with the Carolyn's name. So it was basically more than anything, a calling card. I wanted it to be like, this is Andy's vote and it's for Caroline. And the reason is my calling card is because I would talk a lot about linguistics out there.

[00:35:10] And on our tribe flag, the Becca flag, you could see that I didn't the IPA of my own name. The very first conversation I had with Caroline, we were just like playing in the sand. And like I was like showing her what her name was like in IPA. And so it was a calling card. So when she saw it, she knows this last vote is Andy's vote. OK.

[00:35:30] And on the subject of linguistics at the Survivor After Show, you told Jeff that you wanted to make sure that your game was orthogonal. And there were a lot of theories about why you use that particular word. There are theories. Oh, yeah. OK. Here. I have a couple of thoughts. The idea that in that moment, I would have the wherewithal to reference Sylvia Kwan is you're giving me way too much credit.

[00:35:59] I was not referencing Sylvia Kwan. I don't remember that she said orthogonal. That theory is a scoot. Yeah. But I do have as a funny story, I've had the chance to talk with a lot of like nice people online who like a lot of, you know, the people who decide to say nice things about me online. One of whom is this really cool guy. His name is Kevin Kwan. He's the author of Crazy Rich Asians. And we're like pen pals now. We're talking. I hope he's doing well. He lives in L.A. But he's a huge Survivor fan.

[00:36:28] And he's cousins with Sylvia Kwan. I was going to say, any relation? Yes. Related. Cousins with Sylvia Kwan. So that was that was really cool when Orthogonal came out. But anyway, Orthogonal in reality is just kind of I think if you work in math, it's a very common term. So I don't know. She was an architect. Yeah. My head. OK. OK. Another story, though. Yes. We're talking about linguistics. The last linguistics story. We're going to circle back to the merge tribe name, which is Becca. It's Fijian for bat.

[00:36:55] But it wasn't originally going to be Becca when we were deciding on a merge tribe name. You know, I know about the long tradition of kind of like troll merge tribe names. So I propose that we call our tribe via Vecca, which is a Fijian word. I said it meant the will to survive. And everyone loved it. And everyone wanted our merge tribe to be via Vecca. As it turned out, we found out a day later we were not able to use that merge tribe name. And that is probably because in reality, it doesn't mean the will to survive.

[00:37:24] It means needs to poop. Oh. And something I read in a Fijian grammar, which is like a book that describes a language, before I flew out. And I was just like, if I make the merge, I have a chance. I'm going to try to name our merge tribe via Vecca. And it... Did you know what it actually meant? Yeah. I try to sneak it in, you know, kind of like email a Dom and whatnot and Roloneo. But it works with my tribe, but it was not meant to be.

[00:37:54] And we just had to scramble to come up with Vecca, which is more boring in my opinion. So now let's get to the big one. Okay. Operation, don't call it Project Italy, right? Yeah. Operation Italy. There you go. Okay. Yeah. So Operation Italy, it's really interesting in the entire way, how it started, how it went down.

[00:38:23] I have to say, as I tell the story, like, especially when it comes to like future players or whatever, if I could describe Operation Italy in one word, it's organic. It was so organic in how it came out. And it just so happened to be epic and make for amazing TV. It really did. But if people want to be inspired by that, I love that because it is a big move. But like everything has to line up perfectly. You know what I mean? Like everything has to line up perfectly for it to succeed.

[00:38:52] So it's really just amazing how it all came together because I woke up the day after the Kyle vote, I was feeling very frustrated and kind of stymied. And I felt like the high I rode after the Saul vote was kind of like I was being more frustrated because I felt locked in. I felt constrained by the position I was in, locked into like this underdog alliance, which is not a winning configuration for me, and very few opportunities left to change it up.

[00:39:15] And so I knew like waking up that day, that morning, that really, if I wanted to go for a win, I needed to shake it up. And I needed to utilize relationships I had with Sam and Genevieve. Like I had worked closely with them, more closely with them than like almost anyone else. But then both of those relationships had gone sour. But if I were to go over to them, obviously, this is the final seven. A 3-2-2 is theoretically on the table.

[00:39:42] Now, just because it's on the table doesn't mean it's going to be like, you know, even like plausible to pull off. And that was kind of what made me feel a little bit pessimistic was basically I had this idea in the morning that this is what I should do. How is this going to even come together? Because there's so many moving pieces. I know about a block of vote. There are two idles I don't know about. But yeah, like I knew about how hard it was going to be.

[00:40:06] And then I had this conversation with Genevieve on the hammocks, which is so interesting because I think from both of our perspectives, we were both trying to lay the groundwork for working together without admitting it to each other. Because I had already known that this is what I would want to do. And Sam and Genevieve also had this idea in their heads because, you know, especially Sam, like, you know, we're super fans enough to kind of know that you could do a 3-2-2. And so it occurred to both of us, right?

[00:40:35] But there was not a strong line of communication between myself and Sam and Genevieve at that period of time. So it was a lot of independent. It was like independently arriving at this. But it was a really nice combo I had with Genevieve to like clear the air because there was, to be honest, there was kind of like we had split apart. Genevieve and I, it kind of felt like there was almost like our version of beef there too. It just kind of felt like, I don't know, but we cleared that. And so that was good. And then we go straight to the reward.

[00:41:03] And then as soon as I'm picked for the reward, which I was not expecting, it just clicked in my head. I was like, this is the opportunity. Like, you know, I had a, I was thinking of myself this morning, this is what I would want to do, but how is it going to happen? And now we're picked. This is exactly how it's going to happen because we have, this is an overnight reward and we're going to have all the time and space to work out all the difficulties of how this, why this is a difficult move. And so as I was on the way to the sanctuary, I was like a hundred percent, I'm going to go for it.

[00:41:32] And it was a very freeing, like this is a very, very freeing moment in a survivor game where you realize like, I know the path ahead of me. I'm just going to like, this is the time and I'm going to go for broke. And it's either going to, everything's going to work out and I could actually win this game sitting on pretty low win equity right now. I can go take, go from here to winning or it will not work and I'm just going to lose, but I, at least I went for it.

[00:41:58] And so then, you know, we see how it kind of comes together from there on the sanctuary. Like we do our loved ones stuff and we gave time and space for that. Just like talking personally. Then when it's time to talk game, you know, I just laid it out like immediately. I was like, you know, this is what I want to do. Like here's what's working against us. Here's what's working in our favor. And I think it was like Sam and Genevieve from their perspective, it just like, it worked out so perfectly because this is what they wanted to convince me to do.

[00:42:28] But as it turned out, like I already kind of wanted to do it. So, or I did definitely want to do it. And so that's just kind of how it worked out. So that night was really, really great. That night was that night. And then the next night were like my favorite days out there. They're like so amazing. And that night was really cool because we had like eight hours, three people with aligned interests and nothing to impede them talking about a plan that they were going to do. Like it was very open. It was very cool.

[00:42:58] And we really, really like left no stone unturned. When people think about Operation Italy, like whether it's, oh, you know, Sam Genevieve can't win the challenge. It was like we knew that. We thought about like all these different contingencies. You could write a 15-page dossier of like everything that went on with Operation Italy. We had like a set of code words. We had a lot of contingencies. And it was really, really cool. And yeah, it was just like a, it was an awesome. What were you most worried about? Where did you think that was maybe the hole in the plan?

[00:43:27] What was maybe not the hole, but obviously like the, you know, the hard part when it comes to destroying the Death Star, you know, like the hard part was getting the vote split to work out exactly to fall how we needed it to fall. I was calling it the top split and the bottom split when you think of it 3-2. Yeah, there's like a 3-2-2. Sure. I need to be on the top split. I have to be. And you can argue until you're blue in the face as to why you should split a vote.

[00:43:56] And that's plausible because, you know, you're just trying to, you know, have a plan come together. But you have no room or opportunity to argue as to why you should be on the top split. You know? So if it didn't fall that way, it was going to be really, really, really mission impossible. But we really spent hours trying to come up with wild ideas of how to like try to like do that if it wasn't going to fall that way organically. One of them was, I don't know, we had a lot of plans. One was like just begging Sue to trade votes with her. I don't think that would have worked out. But we had a lot of plans.

[00:44:27] So we get to the next day and Operation Italy is implemented. I started actually getting more and more confident because as things developed, more avenues were opening up than avenues were closing from my perspective. So this, a lot of it had to do with Teenie. And so when we're doing Operation Italy and like I'm talking with Teenie at the well, Teenie says something really interesting. They say, we got to get out Sam. Sam's got to go. Sam's got to go. But if Sam wins immunity today, we should get out Rachel.

[00:44:56] And that kind of blew my mind. That was a pretty big surprise. I had presented it to Sam and Genevieve that no one was flippable. And so now I realize that Teenie is like half flippable. Like they're, I don't think that they were going to flip unless the power structure of the underdog five got upended. But like that isn't out. You know, Teenie wants to target Rachel in the near future. So that was really good.

[00:45:20] And that made me not worried if Sam were to win immunity, which would like, you know, in the original plan, that would be, that would ruin the plan. But if Sam went immunity, I think we could have just flipped Teenie. So that was, that would have been good. It wouldn't have been operationally, but it would have been a successful flip on Rachel. So that would, that made me feel really confident. And then when Rachel won immunity, that was obviously at least felt like a setback at the time for sure. But we had already baked into this, that we definitely knew we were going to target Caroline if Rachel had won immunity.

[00:45:50] But it would have been hard, you know, like Rachel going would have been a lot better for a lot of reasons, especially because we would have flushed the, the block of it, obviously, and would have made the final six scenario easier. But even that, like this felt like something Caroline, Caroline going felt like very crucial if Rachel was going to win immunity. So like we were locked in on that. And then everything was like working out. Like the, I was put on the top split pretty much right away.

[00:46:16] It was like immediate when we were talking about splitting the votes, when it came time for us to agree that we were going to split the votes. It was like this split second thing. Like Rachel's like, okay, I'll put my vote on Genevieve. And I'll just as casually as possible. I was like, yeah, I'll do that too. I'll put my vote on Genevieve. And then that's just how it worked out. And then because Teenie was kind of, all right, there's like kind of, all right. So Teenie was kind of the wild card in this whole scenario.

[00:46:44] A lot of that had to do with, I think Sam talked about it with you. Teenie had a different understanding of what was going on. From Teenie's point of view, they were kind of the spy. They were like, had a really strong lead with Sam and Genevieve. And like they were playing them and putting back everything to the underdog five. But what we convinced Rachel and Caroline and Sue was that we had, Teenie and I had convinced Sam and Genevieve that the four of us were going to vote together.

[00:47:14] But in reality, we were going to vote with the underdog five. So anyway, I kind of lost my train of thought with that. But basically at the 11th hour, Teenie came to us. Oh, sorry. I remember what I was going to say. If anyone was suspicious, like Caroline was suspicious that Teenie was going to flip over to them. And so Caroline came up to me and said, Andy, this split is a little risky because Teenie could flip. So we have to keep Teenie on the bottom split.

[00:47:44] And I was like, yes, that's right. That worked out really well. Perfect. Everything was going. It felt to me like it comes like rightfully in the edit it comes across as like, really, this could all go wrong. It could come toppling. The way I experienced Operation Italy was like, I was like, I took Felix Felicius from Harry Potter, like the luck potion and everything was getting better and better. And so at the 11th hour, actually, Teenie comes up to me and they're like, well, what if we vote out Caroline? Or not.

[00:48:13] They're like, they floated that idea. Like, yeah, better to vote out Caroline because Sam will definitely go and gun for Rachel at the final six. Caroline, we don't know. And so all of a sudden there was another like at the drop of a hat, Teenie could be have been a vote for us, even if the split got wonky or whatever. But so we kind of had an excessive outs for this to work.

[00:48:35] I felt like since everything was so perfectly in place, I wanted to keep Teenie out of it because I had that plan set up to kind of keep lying to Teenie after the vote. Pretend it was all an accident so that they would not look at it as some grand Operation Italy conspiracy. And they would come over to us to get our Rachel. And that really is exactly how it came out. So basically, when I look back at Operation Italy, so it works and then we go back to camp and then that happens and we flip Teenie. I, of course, didn't know that Rachel was eavesdropping, didn't know she had an idol, didn't know Sue had an idol.

[00:49:04] So there's a lot of dark clouds on the horizon. But in that moment, I was like, this worked out definitely absolutely. Like it worked out perfectly. It really, really did. This was absolutely the right move. And in my head, doing like, you know, my kind of back of the envelope calculations in my head that night, I was like, I think I took my win equity from like. Like. 3% to 14% or something. 14. Yeah.

[00:49:34] That's like a lot because I never felt like I was like the front order to win the game because I knew how narrow of a path it was to like. I mean, it influences my decision. Yeah. To me, that felt like an incredible victory. I was like, I have like a. Yeah, I have like a 14% chance of winning this game right now at the final six. That felt great. And so even like in hindsight, appreciatively, like. I mean, the move like justifies itself.

[00:49:59] Like, I don't think when I think of like anyone criticizing that move, that particular move, someone would have to paint a picture for me of how I at the final seven could have possibly won the game without doing it. Did a lot of people criticize the move? I don't remember seeing anybody. I don't remember. I don't remember. Well, here the beauty of my experience, Rob, is I really have read almost nothing about this. Yeah. Well, I'll be the first tell you everybody loved it. No, no. I know. I did. Like I listen to the podcast. I listen to your podcast.

[00:50:27] I didn't read like any comment section or whatever. Yes. Throughout the Moses, I've gathered, you know, maybe like 0.5% of the discourse about my moves or whatever. I know that it was a special episode and I know a lot of people loved it. And I know a lot of people. Yeah. It's the best move. Okay. Made. But I mean, I just agree. All right. Well, let me then. I'll let you then if you would like to address anything.

[00:50:53] If people say like, okay, well, Andy's in a five person alliance and he makes this move at seven and he gets voted out at six. Yeah. Was that the right move ultimately to make, even if it was exciting? Right. Well, so I think conventionally that that looks on paper like big move itis. If the move tanks your position and rockets your threat level and makes it untenable for you to get to the end. That's just not how it went down. Like Dini, Rachel, Sue did not look at it as an operation. It's a master stroke by me.

[00:51:23] Like it looked like a kind of a weaker move. If anything, my threat level did not even go up in the aftermath of Operation Italy. But what did go up is I had a lot more to say about how I paved my own path to the end to get there. I destroyed an endgame configuration that was going to lead to my loss. I mean, we see in the episode that they came up with the four personal lines the moment I was gone.

[00:51:47] And I really feel like so like it improved my position and improved my jury stock all in one. And again, my my my main thing to say is like, I don't think there was any other path I could have won other than doing that right there, which kind of. And then. The final six, I was eliminated the final six because of my gameplay at the final six, not because of like. Aftermath of Operation Italy at all. You know, we didn't get a chance to talk after the finale.

[00:52:16] And, you know, you had your final tribal council question and you brought up Ben and and Mike Holloway that. Do you feel like that that got construed the way you wanted it to by people and maybe where that it was like a little bit of a slight towards Rachel's game and the way she got there? Well, I think in the episode, it came off how I envisioned it. And Rachel took it in the exact way I was communicating it, which was the most important thing to me when I was thinking of that question.

[00:52:45] I was like, I don't want her to take it any type of way other than how it's meant. And the reason I'm using Mike and Ben, it's because it's a shared vernacular that I have with Rachel, who's a super fan, who has a winner ranking list on some Google sheet. But basically, the reason I brought it up and the way I meant it was just for her to reconcile how she actually got to the end versus how she might have thought she got to the end.

[00:53:11] Or like maybe like if she were to talk more about influence that she had or or what have you without giving due focus to the idea that she needed probably the immunities all the way from seven to three to win the game. And I do want to say, I mean, if you look at the way I word it, I don't say anything about Mike or Ben.

[00:53:34] I don't, my opinion about Mike or Ben was, was not, I did not imply that I don't think that they're good winners. You were referencing Rachel's tears. Yes. Rachel, like I know you enough to know that these are not the winners that you thought you would play. Like, obviously not even the winners that you rank highly, but this is your game. And so it was really important for me to hear her kind of like acknowledge that.

[00:54:02] And I don't think it was very hard for her to successfully acknowledge that. She basically had to say what she said, which was like, yeah, I thought I was going to play a certain way. I had to adapt. And, you know, all the pressure was on me and like I had to, you know, win these challenges. I had to do all these things to pave my way to the end. Were you on the fence at all between Rachel and Sam? I will say that it is very true that the seven one of it all is misleading. It was up in the air. It was a toss up and it was close.

[00:54:32] And I think just for me, like, I think it probably got as close as it ever got right after that fire making challenge. Now, I think we're a jury that like are cognizant not to like overrate just someone winning a fire making challenge in front of us.

[00:54:48] Just for me, it really I really, really wanted to truly evaluate both of these players games and like start from scratch and just think about like really who played the stronger game overall. And I gave weight to both of their games. And I really when I, you know, as a fan, I would I always thought it was BS when people said that their minds were not made up. Speaking for myself, it was not made up until.

[00:55:18] So. Toward the end of the final tribal council, and I will say just speaking of what was on the episode and us on the jury bench, a lot of people felt that same way. There was a lot of whispering as final tribal council was going on. I was hearing all kinds of things. It was kind of like it was like this. There were some very strong advocates for Rachel and Sam never had that like strong champion. So maybe that was like one of the issues. But I was hearing people say they were going to vote one way that just like blew my mind as they were like considering it on the bench.

[00:55:47] But as it shook out, it was seven to one. Rachel and you know, like I'm definitely happy with. OK, very happy. Did you update your winner rankings with Rachel yet? I discussed it. Yeah. Yeah, she's. I think I have her somewhere, but there's just no point in there's no point in being. Tell us one other person on the tier with her. What can you tell us one other person that's on the tier with her in your rankings?

[00:56:18] Rachel is a really, really great winner. She's a really great winner. And she is up there with the strong new era winners. OK, she did a lot. And so like thinking about I'm really glad to have this experience on the jury because it really just like. It informs how juries work and like jury psychology and just like for me, like the way I looked at it. But I was always anti like, oh, let's look at the resume and nothing else. You know, that type of thing.

[00:56:45] What you know, like the person who like the biggest moves or whatever should win. And I always thought it was much more nuanced than that. Like and this was such an amazing experiment with that because Sam and Rachel played very different games and both played really good games. But I think for me, the downside to Rachel's game that we tried to like interrogate her on was that, no, she had a bad voting record.

[00:57:09] She was not on the right side of a lot of votes and she didn't have like the control that we associate with like the strong strategic winners the entire time. But I think really that type of thing, being on the right side of all the votes and chart leading the charge on votes. They're like KPIs of like a good game, but they're not like on first principles like necessary to show that you played a good game. Like really, when it all comes down to it is like, you know, three people got to the end.

[00:57:38] Like, did you get to the end and I don't know, like the most worthy way or like the most like did you author your path to the final three? And Rachel, obviously, one of the amenities, which is one of the three pillars of the game. People don't even fully acknowledge that. But also she demonstrated in through her own path. Like think of the final six round.

[00:58:00] She demonstrated like awareness of where people were, like knowledge of the game, savviness and manipulating people using it like her idol to the utmost advantage. She in that round alone, but throughout the game, she demonstrated really, really strong qualities of a player that made it so that like you could say she played a great game, even if she were left out of the vote like three times. And I blindsided her three times. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Andy, as the sand is running out of the hourglass.

[00:58:29] Is there anything else that you want to make sure we know? Let's see. I think a lot of this stuff I might have said in like previous exit interviews. So I'm really just I'm super happy with how this all turned out. Like this was a great. You should be. So such an awesome ride. I've enjoyed it. You know, virtually every single part of this.

[00:58:57] And I think that, you know, a lot of this is leaked on social media, but it's true. Like this is such a close cast. Like I think a lot. And it's it's cool when you watch the season and you see that a lot of people, myself first and foremost, talked about difficulties forming relationships with like with these people. Or like, have I made friends out here? Like, you know. And it's so awesome. Ponderosa was like a really big part of this.

[00:59:26] But just after the season, like we've come together in a really, really close way. And I just probably that's not the case for every season. And so I'm just really, really happy with, you know, I got all the really valuable parts out of this Survivor experience except for, you know, the million dollars. So I'm just really happy. All right. Andy, so great to catch up with you that this guy's killing it on Cameo, killing it on Survivor. Andy. Yeah, that's if I have to plug something. I hit up my Cameo.

[00:59:55] It's so fun and awesome and rewarding to do these Cameos. I was worried about going on Cameo. I was very coming into this. I was like, I'm not the person to ever sell merch or do the Cameos or like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But with Cameo in particular, I am just hearing stories from these fans, like just through like the prompts and stuff that are just so touching and so awesome. And just it makes me feel so good to do my small part. So I think my Cameo is easy to find.

[01:00:25] I don't even know the link or whatever right now. But hit me up. I love doing them. Okay. Andy, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening. We love to read your comments. And for more, check out WeKnowSurvivor.com. Take care of a good one. Bye.