Why ___ Lost Finale | Survivor 46

[00:00:00] This is Amy Poehler. My new movie, Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2, is coming to theaters June 14th.

[00:00:05] And it's making me feel joy and sadness and anger.

[00:00:09] Definitely some disgust. Gross!

[00:00:10] And I think a little fear.

[00:00:12] But I'm also feeling these new emotions like anxiety, embarrassment, envy and ennui.

[00:00:18] It's what you call the boredom.

[00:00:20] Okay, that one was weird.

[00:00:21] It's gonna be the feel-everything movie of the summer.

[00:00:24] Disney and Pixar's Inside Out 2.

[00:00:26] Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested.

[00:00:27] Only in theaters June 14th.

[00:00:29] Get tickets now.

[00:00:31] We took it all.

[00:00:32] We brought them to our land.

[00:00:36] An endless night.

[00:00:37] Ember hot and icy cold.

[00:00:40] The rage of the earth.

[00:00:43] We made this curse.

[00:00:46] Carved it in the blood on our backs.

[00:00:48] We did not see.

[00:00:50] We could not, but she did.

[00:00:52] And in the end...

[00:00:53] What will I become?

[00:00:55] Senua's Saga.

[00:00:56] Hellblade 2.

[00:00:58] Play it now with Game Pass.

[00:01:00] If you lost Survivor and you're feeling down,

[00:01:04] David and Jessica will turn it around.

[00:01:07] They'll break down the rules and they'll show you how.

[00:01:11] You played yourself and got voted out.

[00:01:15] This is why Blank lost.

[00:01:18] This is why Blank lost.

[00:01:22] Baby, this is why Blank lost.

[00:01:25] Welcome back to Why Blank Lost,

[00:01:35] or as we call it every time this season,

[00:01:37] Why Blank Won.

[00:01:39] That's right.

[00:01:40] I'm David Bloomberg and joining me as always is my co-host

[00:01:43] Jessica Lewis, who now has 30 seconds to introduce herself

[00:01:47] and I will stop her when that time is over.

[00:01:49] Go!

[00:01:50] Oh my God.

[00:01:50] So I assume people listening already know who I am.

[00:01:53] I'm Jessica Lewis.

[00:01:53] I was on season 33 of Survivor and here I am with David

[00:01:56] Bloomberg and we do this podcast every week during the seasons

[00:01:58] of Survivor and I hope you return next.

[00:02:01] Damn it.

[00:02:03] Okay, continue.

[00:02:03] I wasn't really timing.

[00:02:06] Well, this is the big one, right?

[00:02:08] This is it.

[00:02:10] This is why Kenzie won and everybody else lost.

[00:02:13] Yes.

[00:02:14] Yes, and it's also a big one because for the first time

[00:02:19] in over a month, we don't have to discuss someone getting

[00:02:21] voted out with an idol in their pocket.

[00:02:23] Oh my gosh.

[00:02:24] I know, right?

[00:02:25] And I don't have to come up with predictions anymore.

[00:02:29] Yes.

[00:02:30] No, I'm sorry.

[00:02:30] Now you have to predict season 47 based on the preview

[00:02:34] clips that...

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:36] No, I'm just not going to.

[00:02:38] I'm just not going to.

[00:02:39] Everybody's going to predict Asia.

[00:02:41] So...

[00:02:42] I know and so awesome.

[00:02:44] I'm so like that totally unexpected when I saw that and

[00:02:48] then everyone was talking about it and the RHAP community

[00:02:51] and all over Twitter.

[00:02:52] So congrats to her.

[00:02:54] Really incredible.

[00:02:55] And the fact that you've already done a podcast with her

[00:02:58] is really quite awesome.

[00:02:59] Yep.

[00:03:00] Yeah.

[00:03:00] Yep.

[00:03:01] And I mean, I don't know her nearly as well.

[00:03:04] I mean really other than podcasts, you know, and some people

[00:03:07] are good friends with her and then there's also a patron,

[00:03:12] Andy, who a well-known patron who is on the cast as well.

[00:03:17] And then of course, just other people but of course that's

[00:03:19] next season and people are wondering, come on guys, you have

[00:03:22] like a really long podcast to do.

[00:03:24] Why are you talking about that?

[00:03:25] We have so many things to get through.

[00:03:26] So let's focus.

[00:03:28] Now, I know that I had predicted Charlie would win but I

[00:03:32] also said...

[00:03:33] Oh wait, time out.

[00:03:34] Yes.

[00:03:34] You predicted he would win when we were down to five.

[00:03:37] Oh yeah, last week.

[00:03:38] Last week.

[00:03:39] Okay.

[00:03:39] So just, I just want to remind the listeners.

[00:03:42] Yeah.

[00:03:43] All right.

[00:03:43] Yeah.

[00:03:45] But I also said I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being

[00:03:48] Kenzie and...

[00:03:50] And if we're going to give credit...

[00:03:52] Yes, you picked Kenzie.

[00:03:53] I might have said Kenzie is going to be the one that wins.

[00:03:57] Yeah.

[00:03:57] Now, you know, to be fully honest with myself, I had a feeling

[00:04:01] based on the edit that Kenzie was probably going to win but

[00:04:03] I stuck with my prediction that it would be Charlie because

[00:04:06] I couldn't put together how Kenzie would make her case in

[00:04:10] final tribal council based on some of the things jurors had

[00:04:14] said earlier in the game.

[00:04:16] Like with all the resume, resume, my move, my move talk.

[00:04:20] Sure, sure.

[00:04:21] As the week continued, I became more and more convinced it

[00:04:24] would indeed be a Kenzie win, even if I didn't know how.

[00:04:28] And we'll obviously talk a lot more about the all-important

[00:04:32] whys and hows of all of that.

[00:04:35] Yes.

[00:04:35] Yes, we will.

[00:04:37] And of course, we'll figure it out by following our usual path.

[00:04:41] While Maria said in some of her interviews that for her, it

[00:04:45] was about why Kenzie won, not why Charlie lost. And you know,

[00:04:49] shout out to Maria.

[00:04:50] Thanks for, you know, probably accidentally, you know,

[00:04:55] giving us those plugs. But for us, it's about both of those

[00:04:59] things and more.

[00:05:02] We will compare the games of all of the final five to my rules

[00:05:06] for winning that I originally wrote way back after season

[00:05:09] one and have been updating ever since, including all the

[00:05:12] non-spoiler information available to us.

[00:05:15] Although at this point, there's really no such thing as spoiler

[00:05:17] information because... That's fair.

[00:05:20] You know, it's over.

[00:05:21] Also, of course, what we saw on TV interviews, social media,

[00:05:27] social media, and secret scenes.

[00:05:31] The newest version of the rules can be found on the website

[00:05:33] by going to robhazerwebsite.com slash yxlostfeed and clicking

[00:05:37] on the link bubble for Survivor Rules.

[00:05:40] Now, one thing I want to remind everyone about before we get

[00:05:44] started is that because we have to talk about five players,

[00:05:48] we unfortunately can't give all of them the time they deserve

[00:05:54] or else we'd be here for like six hours, which is not ideal.

[00:05:59] On the plus side, for four of them, they didn't get a whole

[00:06:03] podcast devoted to them because they lost, you know, earlier.

[00:06:07] So, you know, you got to take the pluses and the minuses there.

[00:06:11] We do what we can with what we've got, right?

[00:06:13] Right.

[00:06:15] But before we address how each of the final five did in terms

[00:06:18] of the rules, we always have some other things to discuss.

[00:06:21] Though, you know, in this episode, not that much because

[00:06:24] I mean, most of it was focused on the ending and we have five

[00:06:27] players to talk about.

[00:06:28] Yes.

[00:06:29] Now, one topic I know you wanted to cover and which was also

[00:06:33] a big discussion on Twitter and on Facebook and everywhere

[00:06:39] during and after the finale was Liz helping Kenzie in the

[00:06:43] final five immunity challenge so they could knock out Maria.

[00:06:46] Now, we'll talk about why they chose to do that later in

[00:06:49] rule seven.

[00:06:51] I mean people already know why and rule seven kind of gives

[00:06:54] it away even further, but we will.

[00:06:57] But I've heard from a lot of people that they're upset about

[00:07:01] this. Some even went so far as to call it cheating.

[00:07:04] So let me start by addressing that.

[00:07:07] As someone who spent the better part of three decades writing

[00:07:10] and interpreting rules and laws in my job, not just, you know,

[00:07:14] these survivor rules.

[00:07:17] I could say pretty clearly it's not cheating if the rules

[00:07:21] don't prohibit it.

[00:07:23] Exactly.

[00:07:24] It's kind of definitionally the situation.

[00:07:27] Right.

[00:07:28] And so while people may not like it, that's an opinion.

[00:07:33] While calling it cheating is making it an accusation of fact.

[00:07:37] Yes, which it was not definitely not cheating.

[00:07:39] Right not cheating because as we've discussed on previous

[00:07:42] podcasts.

[00:07:45] Survivor has a fairness judge type of person out there.

[00:07:49] I believe vote a you know pointed that out on podcast and

[00:07:52] we've heard about it even more since then.

[00:07:55] If this had been against the rules, they would have stopped

[00:07:59] it.

[00:07:59] I know people like to say well Jeff just likes to do whatever

[00:08:02] is best for the drama and to an extent that's true but not if

[00:08:06] it's against the rules.

[00:08:08] Right and Jeff will lay everything out prior to each challenge

[00:08:14] and that's something that we've discussed a little bit but

[00:08:18] the players are literally brought through the entire challenge

[00:08:21] start to finish what is going to happen at each phase what

[00:08:26] they have to do so that way they've seen it prior to actually

[00:08:30] getting to it.

[00:08:30] And if there is a certain component about what you can and

[00:08:33] can't do that's when you're going to be told by Jeff what

[00:08:36] you can and can't do.

[00:08:37] So those things are laid out ahead of time and I believe it

[00:08:40] was Kenzie that even specified the next challenge.

[00:08:42] He made sure to tell them beforehand.

[00:08:44] You can't help each other.

[00:08:46] So if that is going to be a rule that's going to be addressed

[00:08:49] prior to 100% yeah now, you know, I mean, I think that Survivor

[00:08:56] probably enjoyed this Survivor production probably enjoyed this

[00:08:59] because it showed I mean what is Survivor Survivor has challenges

[00:09:04] but it is not a game of challenges.

[00:09:05] It is a game of strategic and social interaction.

[00:09:08] This was a strategic and social move.

[00:09:11] Yes, and you know, so like you said it wasn't prohibited.

[00:09:18] Liz didn't do anything with Kenzie's puzzle.

[00:09:22] It's not like she put pieces in her puzzle.

[00:09:24] She didn't move the combination lock.

[00:09:26] She helped her with the clues.

[00:09:28] Yes, she grabbed her plank to count the holes.

[00:09:32] But again, that was to get a clue not perform the workings

[00:09:37] of the challenge itself.

[00:09:39] Yes, and you know, we've seen people helping others out pointing

[00:09:46] at puzzles put the piece there put the piece there and telling

[00:09:51] someone where the ball was about to drop.

[00:09:53] I believe Adam did that.

[00:09:55] Yes.

[00:09:56] He did and so I know some people have said well grabbing

[00:10:00] the plank was different because it could lead to someone grabbing

[00:10:03] a plank to interfere with another player in the future.

[00:10:06] No, because those are two different things like you said.

[00:10:09] Yes.

[00:10:09] No, you and that and I will say that that is another component

[00:10:14] of Survivor rules that does exist that you actually cannot

[00:10:18] like touch another player in a way that's going like these

[00:10:21] they you would be shocked at how many things are spelled out

[00:10:25] in the contract prior to the things that you were agreeing

[00:10:28] to and what you can and can't do.

[00:10:29] And you Jeff would never allow someone to get in like to affect

[00:10:35] someone in that way.

[00:10:36] Now, we have seen group challenges where people might cut people

[00:10:39] off or get away.

[00:10:40] Well, that's a different thing, right?

[00:10:42] And I just want to say to one of the things that I heard on

[00:10:45] Twitter and people saying that they just thought it was unfair.

[00:10:49] I think it's unfair.

[00:10:50] So some people call that cheating.

[00:10:51] Some people called it lame.

[00:10:52] Some people called it unfair.

[00:10:54] I just want to put it out there.

[00:10:56] Survivor is not fair.

[00:10:58] Okay.

[00:10:59] It's not.

[00:11:00] Hi, I'm someone who knows.

[00:11:02] Okay.

[00:11:03] I was I was removed from the game because I picked a rock

[00:11:08] when I was not someone who's being voted for and the two

[00:11:11] people who had been being voted for got to stay in the game,

[00:11:15] even though they were the targets of that particular vote.

[00:11:17] That's not fair.

[00:11:18] However, I also want to say that was a decision I made that

[00:11:21] was a choice I made and that's what distinguishes this from

[00:11:25] those moments that you and I complain about in relationship

[00:11:28] to the survivor world.

[00:11:30] When it's production that's coming in and introducing something

[00:11:33] that affects the players ability to play the game.

[00:11:36] I take issue with that.

[00:11:37] The hourglass, you know, that was a huge thing that I take

[00:11:41] issue with introducing the fire making it for I have an issue

[00:11:45] with that.

[00:11:46] However, when it is a decision that a player is making based

[00:11:50] upon a strategic game reason Liz obviously didn't want Maria

[00:11:56] to win that immunity challenge.

[00:11:58] So this was helping her as well and she knew she wasn't going

[00:12:00] to win.

[00:12:01] She's not good at puzzles.

[00:12:02] So Kenzie is I'm going to help Kenzie.

[00:12:05] That's just strategic game move that was Liz was making so

[00:12:10] Liz should be allowed to make that move.

[00:12:11] It has nothing to do with being unfair cheating nothing because

[00:12:16] survivor is a game about it is unfair.

[00:12:19] You can give someone your immunity necklace if you want someone

[00:12:23] who didn't earn it, you can hand it over.

[00:12:26] You can save someone with an immunity Idol and send somebody

[00:12:29] home with two votes when the other person has five, but now

[00:12:32] they're immune.

[00:12:33] This is what happens in survivor and it is all about strategic

[00:12:37] game moves.

[00:12:38] People might not like it.

[00:12:39] People might think well that cheapens it a bit that she won

[00:12:43] she won with help.

[00:12:44] Yes, and she's acknowledged that she has but it was a decision

[00:12:48] that Liz made and it was one that Kenzie said great.

[00:12:51] She's going to help you.

[00:12:52] This is awesome.

[00:12:53] So overall, I think it was a fantastic decision for Liz to

[00:12:58] make because it was helping her game and that's why she was

[00:13:02] doing it.

[00:13:03] It wasn't out of spite.

[00:13:05] It wasn't out of ill will she knew I can't let Maria win.

[00:13:09] We can't let Maria win done.

[00:13:11] So I don't see any issue with I was actually like floored.

[00:13:14] I thought it was great.

[00:13:16] It was like she just saw it happening and she did it and it

[00:13:20] kept I thought it was fantastic.

[00:13:22] So I don't take any issue with it at all because I know

[00:13:26] Survivor is not fair.

[00:13:28] It's not fair and it shouldn't be fair.

[00:13:30] It should be a game that allows the players to make decisions

[00:13:34] for their own end game.

[00:13:36] Yeah, I mean there were people in the beginning who said

[00:13:39] alliances weren't fair.

[00:13:41] Yeah, go back to season one, you know, well alliances aren't

[00:13:44] fair each person should vote how they want to vote.

[00:13:47] Yeah, that's not the game, you know, and for people who say

[00:13:51] well, this is a slippery slope and it could start that.

[00:13:54] No, I'm not worried about the slippery slope because it's

[00:13:56] not you know, there are clear demarcations of what you can

[00:14:00] do and can't do Liz could help her.

[00:14:04] She could not have taken the plank and run away to another

[00:14:07] island on Fiji to hide it from her so she could write right,

[00:14:10] you know, they're two different things.

[00:14:13] So all right now besides that was there anything else you

[00:14:17] wanted to mention before we move on?

[00:14:18] I'm sure there was but we have so much to talk about like

[00:14:22] my brain is swirling and spinning with things.

[00:14:24] That was the one that I was the most interested in speaking

[00:14:28] about because I really felt it when people were complaining

[00:14:31] about it.

[00:14:32] So we'll move on and I'm sure I'll address everything else

[00:14:34] that I need to talk about now.

[00:14:37] There were obviously other things going on and I'll be you

[00:14:40] know, and have already been putting some of them into

[00:14:42] tic-tacs at David Bloomberg TV before we get into the

[00:14:48] We get to how the final five did we do of course need to

[00:14:53] mention that the rules were about to discuss come in a shorter

[00:14:56] and much more colorful version in poster form.

[00:15:00] So go to rob has website.com slash yx lost feed scroll down

[00:15:04] to the poster click on it and order it.

[00:15:07] Yes, in addition to the poster you can get the rules in

[00:15:11] poster t-shirt form and you can get them in checklist form

[00:15:17] like I'm wearing although it normally has Y blank lost

[00:15:21] on the front.

[00:15:22] So this is my special way of wearing it in honor of Kenzie.

[00:15:29] So again, that's Rob has website.com slash yx lost feed

[00:15:36] for all your poster and shirt needs.

[00:15:41] I love that.

[00:15:42] Yes.

[00:15:42] And to the individual who wanted the sign poster.

[00:15:45] I also sent that individual assigned photograph of myself

[00:15:48] and my marker.

[00:15:49] Well, my marker wasn't as dark as I wanted it to be on the

[00:15:52] poster.

[00:15:52] So I thought well this way.

[00:15:54] How come you didn't send them a signed photo of me?

[00:15:58] Well, send me some and I will gladly do so that would be

[00:16:03] fun people can have the two of us hanging on their wall.

[00:16:07] It'll just be like the podcast when they watch it.

[00:16:08] Right.

[00:16:09] That's right.

[00:16:12] It's a great idea.

[00:16:14] Although mine's like a dirty picture of me holding corn,

[00:16:17] you know, when you said a dirty picture of you that's not

[00:16:20] right.

[00:16:20] No, no, no.

[00:16:21] All right.

[00:16:23] Whoa, wait a minute here.

[00:16:24] This podcast just took a turn physically filthy.

[00:16:28] I don't know that you're helping yourself.

[00:16:32] Okay.

[00:16:32] It's when I was on the island in muddy muddy.

[00:16:35] It was a muddy muddy muddy and you know production thought

[00:16:38] it was a great idea because this is fair and we're talking

[00:16:41] about fair.

[00:16:42] Yeah, I were you know,

[00:16:44] here's everyone who's going to be on survivor.

[00:16:46] We're going to release their pictures and we were just dirty

[00:16:50] pictures.

[00:16:50] Yes.

[00:16:50] Oh, it's the worst.

[00:16:53] So thanks for that.

[00:16:54] Thanks.

[00:16:54] I appreciate it.

[00:16:55] So that's my that's my my yeah, what are those called?

[00:16:59] I even forgot like not the cast photo but like I mean basically

[00:17:04] your official cast photo.

[00:17:05] Yeah, it's like it's terrible.

[00:17:06] We all media photo.

[00:17:08] What?

[00:17:08] Oh my God.

[00:17:09] We all look terrible just gross anyway.

[00:17:15] We took it all we brought them to our land an endless night

[00:17:21] Ember hot and icy cold the rage of the earth.

[00:17:27] We made this curse.

[00:17:30] Carved it in the blood on our backs.

[00:17:32] We did not see we could not but she did and in the end what

[00:17:38] will I become Senua saga Hellblade to play it now with game

[00:17:43] pass.

[00:17:45] Well as we approached the finale, we had an interesting mix

[00:17:49] remaining in the final five Maria was clearly the biggest

[00:17:54] threat and the question was whether she could somehow make

[00:17:57] it through Charlie was her longtime partner in crime.

[00:18:01] And the question was whether he could be seen as the next

[00:18:04] threat or indeed not get enough credit.

[00:18:07] Kenzie had been shown as being great socially, but would that

[00:18:10] be enough to get her to win?

[00:18:12] Liz had a plan so secret that production even hit it from

[00:18:16] us.

[00:18:18] And Ben despite being a really nice guy was pretty well presumed

[00:18:23] to be out of the running.

[00:18:25] Some of these things came true as expected while other surprises

[00:18:28] arose.

[00:18:29] It's time to figure out why Kenzie one and Charlie Ben Liz

[00:18:33] and Maria lost.

[00:18:37] So guess what?

[00:18:40] We could we don't have to start with rule 7.

[00:18:41] Yes, exactly.

[00:18:43] We can finally start with rule one the first and most important

[00:18:46] rule which is credible and plot.

[00:18:49] Now, let me start by addressing the elephant in the room right

[00:18:55] from the start because I know there's already been a lot of

[00:18:58] talk about how the jury didn't necessarily reward the biggest

[00:19:02] schemer and we'll of course discuss that as we continue through

[00:19:06] but that relates more to dealing with the jury which will come

[00:19:11] up mostly in appendix B.

[00:19:14] But the thing is you don't have to worry about figuring out

[00:19:18] the jury if you don't make it to final three, right and you

[00:19:22] make it to final three in large part by scheming and plotting.

[00:19:27] Yes.

[00:19:28] So no matter what we eventually land on in terms of the most

[00:19:31] important aspect for the jury this rule still reigns supreme

[00:19:37] overall.

[00:19:39] And one way we can see this is how all of the final four were

[00:19:43] actually in an alliance so secret that production didn't even

[00:19:48] show it to us.

[00:19:49] Yeah, right.

[00:19:51] I mean it was it was interesting and informative that just a

[00:19:56] couple Tribal Councils ago Jeff was like, oh, so you're voting

[00:20:00] this way not on alliances and everyone's like nope.

[00:20:03] We don't think alliances come into play.

[00:20:05] Meanwhile, there was this secret four-person Alliance controlling

[00:20:10] everything.

[00:20:11] Yeah, it's almost like they schemed and plotted their way to

[00:20:14] the end.

[00:20:15] Isn't that crazy?

[00:20:16] And I feel someone called it was the gathering of the goats,

[00:20:19] right?

[00:20:19] That was gathering of the goats, which I think Ben came up

[00:20:21] with that name.

[00:20:22] Yes.

[00:20:23] And so I was and I might have even referenced it on the this

[00:20:26] podcast.

[00:20:27] I was calling it the island of the misfit toys like that's what

[00:20:29] we were kind of being left with and so I love that they were

[00:20:33] mindful of this as well that they came together because all

[00:20:37] of the like jocks and and people were like kind of taking each

[00:20:41] other out and collecting over here.

[00:20:42] So like, okay.

[00:20:43] Well, we're just going to gather over in this corner and no

[00:20:46] one's going to pay any attention to us.

[00:20:47] So I think it's great that they saw what was happening just

[00:20:51] as we really did as viewers because we saw your everyone's

[00:20:54] taking out the bigger threat and then they're becoming the

[00:20:57] next bigger threat and they're being taken out and so they

[00:21:00] were mindful enough of this and the only one who really said

[00:21:04] this is what's happening and I have to make sure to maintain

[00:21:07] where I fall in that line is Charlie.

[00:21:09] Yeah, Charlie was he was looking at the levels and he was

[00:21:13] reminding others like who's got to go first who's got to go

[00:21:17] next and who's got to go after that?

[00:21:19] So I think it's great that they were able to structure in

[00:21:21] that way.

[00:21:22] Yeah, and you know, Kenzie talked in her interviews about

[00:21:25] the formation of this group.

[00:21:28] Like you said, they considered themselves at the bottom.

[00:21:30] They got along well and they wanted to change their

[00:21:33] circumstances.

[00:21:34] So as she told Mike Bloom we were able to fly under the

[00:21:36] radar work together very closely and have a good time.

[00:21:39] We had been together from 7 and on that's kind of a long

[00:21:42] time for an Alliance to go undetected which yeah,

[00:21:47] Ben told Mike you get to the merge and there's all these

[00:21:51] people playing super hard only amongst themselves.

[00:21:54] I was at the bottom.

[00:21:55] I had Liz from the journey.

[00:21:56] I knew how people perceived Liz.

[00:21:58] I loved Liz.

[00:21:59] I had Charlie from day one and Kenzie and I just clicked

[00:22:02] nobody took us seriously.

[00:22:04] So then that group controlled the vote outcomes and the

[00:22:08] other people just didn't notice it because each time, you

[00:22:12] know, like Maria thought, oh, I'll get them to vote with

[00:22:15] me and Q or you know things moving back and forth and

[00:22:18] each time someone else thought they were the decider when

[00:22:22] really it was this quote-unquote swing votes who were really

[00:22:26] the deciders.

[00:22:27] Right and you know Ben added in his interview.

[00:22:30] I'm so baffled that at final six Q and Maria couldn't see

[00:22:34] all the people they never talked gameplay with how could

[00:22:37] they not realize we were all hanging out the whole time.

[00:22:39] You don't think we were talking and this is really insightful

[00:22:43] when it comes to Maria because she knew she was a threat

[00:22:47] as we'll discuss later.

[00:22:49] She just thought she had people moving through the votes

[00:22:52] with her when she really didn't and I think you can really

[00:22:57] see that when she was talking to Charlie and Charlie came

[00:23:00] to her and said hey, I want to let you know the votes going

[00:23:03] against Q and she questioned him.

[00:23:08] And I now understand that questioning even more than I

[00:23:12] did at the time where she was like you think you can get

[00:23:15] Kenzie and Liz to vote that way.

[00:23:18] And at the time it was because we said oh well Kenzie and

[00:23:20] Liz have convinced her but I think it's more than that.

[00:23:24] I think like Ben said Maria and Q were so convinced that

[00:23:27] they had everyone else in their Q skirt pockets that they

[00:23:32] just didn't even realize what was going on.

[00:23:36] And then on top of that we heard in some interviews that

[00:23:39] like before the Q vote they kept Maria and Q distracted

[00:23:43] by putting on a fashion show.

[00:23:45] Yes, and this we actually talked about this when they when

[00:23:49] Ben and Kenzie mentioned it to Jeff when they walked in

[00:23:54] because they were all like dressed up and and he said something

[00:23:57] to them and Kenzie was like, oh just wait for this show.

[00:24:00] And I thought it was interesting that they were all coming

[00:24:03] in dressed up and what was that all about?

[00:24:06] That was part of the plan which I thought was incredible

[00:24:09] that we now know the backstory as to how we got to that

[00:24:14] tribal council and and that that feeling that they were

[00:24:17] both showing and emanating.

[00:24:19] Yeah.

[00:24:21] I also will say that I'm just want to throw in here too

[00:24:23] as far as that whole group of four.

[00:24:27] I think what also made this work is that it wasn't just

[00:24:31] a group of four they had the four but they had their connections

[00:24:35] to the people who thought that they were in charge and thought

[00:24:38] that they were leading the charge.

[00:24:39] And so that's what made it work.

[00:24:42] Yeah, and that's what made it convincing because they were

[00:24:44] like, oh, yeah, sure.

[00:24:45] We're going to let these people think that they're making

[00:24:48] the call but then we're really going to push and sway things

[00:24:52] the way we want because that's exactly what again we saw

[00:24:54] and I'm going to just say it again Charlie doing when it

[00:24:57] came to particular votes and Kenzie was talking about how

[00:25:00] you just had to say yes Q.

[00:25:02] Yes, that's exactly what we're going to do Q.

[00:25:04] You're right Q.

[00:25:05] So they knew how to placate and they knew how to play up

[00:25:09] the the people who thought that they were in charge in order

[00:25:12] to make the votes go the way they wanted.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:15] Yeah now moving to get more specific from the gathering

[00:25:19] of the goats Kenzie said in final tribal council that her

[00:25:25] strategic game was mostly her social game.

[00:25:27] So we'll be talking a lot more about that when we get to rule

[00:25:30] five, but even in terms of straight strategy, she was in

[00:25:34] the early solid three on yonu and even more solid with Tiffany.

[00:25:39] She was after all the mermaid dragon.

[00:25:48] You need to make that a mermaid though.

[00:25:50] Well, my son made it.

[00:25:53] I know it's awesome and I'll give people a link later

[00:25:57] if they want one but it's yeah, I told him he has to make

[00:26:04] it into a mermaid.

[00:26:04] He hasn't figured that out yet.

[00:26:08] So but you know people can buy one from him and then, you

[00:26:11] know, add a mermaid tail or something like that.

[00:26:14] Is that it's Etsy is that where he has it's on Etsy.

[00:26:17] Yeah, it's it's on his fiance's Etsy shop at crazy girl

[00:26:24] art design.

[00:26:25] So you go to that's great and find it on the 3d thing.

[00:26:31] But anyway, that you know wasn't wasn't my intention to turn

[00:26:34] it into a commercial but anyway, we saw the mermaid dragon

[00:26:45] mixing things up by telling Jess and Banu to flip with her

[00:26:49] even when she had no intention of actually doing that.

[00:26:52] You know, that was just one example that you could think

[00:26:54] about going all the way back to then.

[00:26:57] But of course most of the early yonu days were as you said

[00:27:01] dominated by Q and the best strategic thing she could do

[00:27:04] was stay out of his way.

[00:27:07] And I think that that is a great understanding of how you're

[00:27:11] being perceived in the game as well because she's recognizing

[00:27:15] how Q is and she's also understanding how that can be perceived.

[00:27:20] So she doesn't want to necessarily get in his way because

[00:27:24] it's not going to be to her benefit.

[00:27:25] And I do think that there is a lot to be said about someone

[00:27:28] who's who realizes I need to sit in the back seat and I need

[00:27:31] to let someone else feel like they're in charge, but that

[00:27:34] doesn't mean you can't still sway the vote and that doesn't

[00:27:36] mean you can't still have an effect on how the game turns

[00:27:40] out because you're recognizing what's going to work to your

[00:27:44] benefit. And then also how long can you let this person

[00:27:47] kind of be front and center which then we see what happens

[00:27:49] with the people who are front and center.

[00:27:51] They're getting voted out once you get to the merge and

[00:27:54] people are realizing that they're in charge.

[00:27:55] So it's it's a it's a balancing act, but I think Kenzie

[00:27:59] did it very very well.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] Yeah, and then you know speaking of balancing, you know

[00:28:05] at the merge.

[00:28:07] She had to lie low, you know, Bhanu had told people she

[00:28:11] controlled the game.

[00:28:11] But then she started picking up allies and then you know,

[00:28:16] she was blindsided when Tiffany was voted out and that takes

[00:28:19] us what we already talked about in terms of a four-person

[00:28:22] alliance.

[00:28:23] I wouldn't say she had a lot of specific strategic moves

[00:28:28] that she could point to in part because most of what she

[00:28:31] did were little things that keep you going forward, which

[00:28:35] is the right way to play.

[00:28:36] But also because that type of gameplay just wasn't her.

[00:28:40] It was however Charlie and he played that type of game from

[00:28:46] the very beginning when he aligned with Maria as the Malcolm

[00:28:50] and Denise duo, you know, they work together on SIGA at first

[00:28:55] and took that into the merge.

[00:28:56] But even as Charlie stayed close with Maria, he also recognized

[00:29:01] he had to separate himself.

[00:29:02] He told Mike Bloom that he realized they saw this game differently

[00:29:06] in terms of who to work with and the best way to get to the

[00:29:09] end. As one example, he said Maria was hyped about the six and

[00:29:14] he thought it kind of sucked and it turned out he was right.

[00:29:17] That was a hysterical scene in final Tribal Council when like

[00:29:22] all the members of the six sitting on the jury are like,

[00:29:25] yeah, this was a terrible alliance.

[00:29:26] We don't want to talk about that.

[00:29:28] Let's just move on from there.

[00:29:30] It was like the thing that happened at the party that no one

[00:29:32] wants. No, no, no, no.

[00:29:33] What's that?

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:34] What happened in Vegas stays in Vegas, right?

[00:29:37] Like we're not talking about that.

[00:29:38] Yeah.

[00:29:39] And plus he realized even if the six had been a good alliance,

[00:29:44] he was on the bottom of it because he was brought in as the

[00:29:46] Tim replacement.

[00:29:47] He was like 6B.

[00:29:49] You know, and that's something to be mindful of too.

[00:29:51] Like where do you fall within this Alliance?

[00:29:53] Yes, it's a group of six, but if you're the sixth one, well

[00:29:57] then congratulations on being number six.

[00:29:59] Yeah, right.

[00:30:00] As Ben told Rob, the other players discounted Charlie and said

[00:30:04] he wouldn't be able to really do anything to the six, but

[00:30:08] Charlie knew exactly how to play the top and bottom and swing

[00:30:11] the power dynamics.

[00:30:12] Now, of course, Maria was not Charlie's only rival.

[00:30:16] Now, of course, Maria was not Charlie's only tight Alliance.

[00:30:19] He was in the Dumb and Dumber Alliance with Ben from day

[00:30:22] one and talked in interviews about how they weren't just

[00:30:26] friends but strategized together quite a bit, especially after

[00:30:29] Maria kind of went in on Ben in the secret scene and as she

[00:30:33] accused him of lying about pretty much everything.

[00:30:37] You know, after that, Charlie said Ben was essentially his

[00:30:41] other number one.

[00:30:42] You know, we joked about earlier about how last season there

[00:30:48] were multiple number ones and then here we are at the end talking

[00:30:52] about Charlie had two number ones.

[00:30:55] Maria had two number ones.

[00:30:57] Yeah, and I do think that it's interesting that we had Charlie

[00:31:02] and Maria who were so close and playing the game essentially

[00:31:07] the same way.

[00:31:08] Yes, but and then also both having that other, you know,

[00:31:11] number one on the side in their pocket.

[00:31:14] And I think that that probably helped Charlie understand much

[00:31:18] more of the relationship that Maria and Q actually had because

[00:31:23] that's what he was doing too.

[00:31:25] And so I just kind of feel like it was just this like understood

[00:31:29] thing. Like we both got a side piece over here.

[00:31:32] We're just not going to talk about it.

[00:31:33] I just think it's fascinating that they were doing that.

[00:31:38] Studio open relationship.

[00:31:40] Okay.

[00:31:40] I won't say anything if you don't say anything.

[00:31:46] Sounds like a whole different type of reality show.

[00:31:48] I know it really was but that's not what it was.

[00:31:50] But you know, that's what it is.

[00:31:51] Survivor Temptation Island.

[00:31:53] Look at you.

[00:31:55] Oh, I think you just introduced a new show.

[00:31:58] Might have to change the name to protect me.

[00:32:04] Now within the first rule, there is a special corollary warning

[00:32:09] players not to keep their scheming so secret that they can't

[00:32:12] claim it for credit at the end of the game.

[00:32:13] I worried for a while right up to the finale based on the scenes

[00:32:19] that we were being shown that this would be the case for Charlie.

[00:32:22] Yeah, and it's still probably played a role in terms of jurors

[00:32:26] coming in with that perception and therefore being harder to

[00:32:29] convince.

[00:32:30] Yeah, but he said in his interviews that as much as we saw him

[00:32:34] explain the game in final tribal council, he gave even more

[00:32:37] details than we were shown.

[00:32:38] Indeed, he told Dalton Ross that while Soda's question did start

[00:32:42] with what we saw with her saying, you know, these are my impressions

[00:32:46] of you.

[00:32:46] The part we didn't show was her saying, well, actually you've already

[00:32:50] proven, you know me wrong.

[00:32:54] So just go ahead.

[00:32:55] Yeah, in terms of being Maria sidekick.

[00:32:58] So at least, you know, that was one person, you know, he clearly

[00:33:04] convinced three people.

[00:33:05] Yeah, and he did say that his he he realized that he needed to

[00:33:09] separate his game from Maria and that he needed to show the jury

[00:33:14] that he was making these moves.

[00:33:16] Now, I will say it would have been nice if Maria had been helping

[00:33:20] him do this and having you know, the jury like see that and understand

[00:33:25] that because this is always an issue that we see when you have a

[00:33:28] tight duo is how do you separate yourself from that person in the

[00:33:32] final tribal council?

[00:33:33] He knew we couldn't sit next to Maria, but putting her on the jury

[00:33:37] might have been to his benefit because then there could be a wreck

[00:33:40] like someone could recognize the game will be a guess.

[00:33:43] We were playing the game together, but we were both doing he was

[00:33:46] doing this.

[00:33:46] I was doing that kind of relationship, but unfortunately he didn't

[00:33:51] have that cheerleader that he needed who was going to help.

[00:33:54] We might just have some things to say about that in a pen.

[00:33:57] I know.

[00:33:57] I think so.

[00:33:59] I think so, but I mentioned this because yeah, there's a few things

[00:34:03] to be said.

[00:34:03] I mentioned this because this is again if you are going to have a

[00:34:08] tight do all you need to be mindful of that always when you are in

[00:34:12] front of a jury, you don't want to be seen as someone who's riding

[00:34:15] someone's coattails.

[00:34:16] I don't think that that's what they thought with Charlie at all.

[00:34:19] It wasn't he was riding Maria's coattails.

[00:34:21] It was how much credit is he being given for what the two of them were

[00:34:27] doing together and because it was so kind of under the radar the

[00:34:33] things he was doing aside from Maria.

[00:34:35] I don't I don't know that I'd go that far but I agree it wasn't

[00:34:39] coattails.

[00:34:39] It was more like I think they thought he was like Maria's intern.

[00:34:42] Well, but that's what he's like.

[00:34:44] He wasn't able to show other side of me because there's that side

[00:34:48] piece we were talking about right?

[00:34:50] He's you know, he's got this other relationship.

[00:34:52] He has this big gathering of the goats like he has these other

[00:34:55] Things that people didn't see all they saw was the relationship with

[00:34:59] Maria.

[00:34:59] And so this is why it becomes a difficult game to play because you

[00:35:05] don't want to have to be in the final tribal going.

[00:35:07] Hey, guess what else I did but I feel like he needed to push that a

[00:35:11] little bit more because he didn't have anybody pushing it for him.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Now it's probably, you know too bad that the jury forbade him from

[00:35:23] Using Taylor Swift lyrics because if he had been allowed to I think

[00:35:28] he would have said what if I told you none of it was accidental and

[00:35:33] the first night that you saw me nothing was going to stop me.

[00:35:36] I laid the groundwork and then just like clockwork the dominoes

[00:35:40] cascaded in the line.

[00:35:42] What if I told you I'm a mastermind?

[00:35:44] It was all by design because I'm a master.

[00:35:49] Taylor Swift lyrics.

[00:35:53] I know at least you know to Taylor Swift songs and that's one of them

[00:35:57] so you know, he might have been able to spend it without them even

[00:36:03] knowing that that's what he was doing.

[00:36:04] Oh, they'd have known that if I know the song they know the song.

[00:36:09] Yes, it would have been funny.

[00:36:13] Well, I mean there's no way they would have gotten permission to use

[00:36:17] the song but if he had just like one one line from it, maybe but yeah,

[00:36:24] I mean we should you know mention some of the details of what his

[00:36:29] plan was and you've already gone into these and we even discussed

[00:36:33] a lot of it in our why Venus lost podcast because we noted that for

[00:36:38] most of the last few seasons.

[00:36:39] We've discussed how players need to precisely time when to take out

[00:36:42] the big threats.

[00:36:43] Charlie was doing that.

[00:36:46] He was going through that exact process.

[00:36:47] He set things up so he had both the lieutenant and the shield and

[00:36:52] knew when one would go when the other would go and it gave him the

[00:36:55] best path to the end and even managed to switch votes.

[00:36:59] So the people would go in the order that was best for him without those

[00:37:03] people recognizing that that's what needed to be done for Charlie.

[00:37:07] So I very impressive game move all around in the way that he was able

[00:37:12] to structure things without coming across as a cue where he was telling

[00:37:17] people what to do right?

[00:37:18] He was making it a beneficial move for everyone when in actuality, it

[00:37:22] was benefiting him the most.

[00:37:24] Yes.

[00:37:24] So the dominoes cascaded in a line.

[00:37:29] Crazy.

[00:37:30] Yeah, so so like I said, he did convey his game at final Tribal Council

[00:37:37] enough to swing over at least well three votes.

[00:37:40] I won't say at least he did three votes of probably the most analytical

[00:37:45] people on the jury.

[00:37:46] He also said to Dalton, I really I felt really good about having shown

[00:37:51] my strategy really well and I thought if they were voting off strategy

[00:37:54] and you can vote off whatever reason you want if they were voting off

[00:37:58] strategy, they would probably be voting for me.

[00:38:01] And from what we saw and heard I I would agree with that statement.

[00:38:05] Yes, I would too.

[00:38:08] So, all right, well we can move on to Ben totally different music

[00:38:12] genre there and I don't worry.

[00:38:16] I won't be citing any lyrics.

[00:38:17] Come on.

[00:38:18] I was ready for some Metallica.

[00:38:19] Let's go.

[00:38:24] We have a bit of an opposite situation in the game too.

[00:38:27] We already mentioned how Ben was a second number one to Charlie and

[00:38:32] they discussed strategy in the later game.

[00:38:34] But we also heard from various sources that in the early game Ben

[00:38:38] frustrated some people by not wanting to talk strategy like ever.

[00:38:42] We saw it way back in an episode three secret scene.

[00:38:48] We heard it from Maria and her interviews is one reason she didn't

[00:38:51] trust Ben from early on.

[00:38:53] He rectified it later as part of the gathering of the goats, but I do

[00:38:58] think his early game avoidance of strategy discussions really hurt

[00:39:02] his image with other players.

[00:39:04] Yeah, and this is one of those issues to with a 26 day game where you

[00:39:09] do have to do things much quicker and much sooner because you don't

[00:39:13] have as much time to continue to build on that.

[00:39:15] And so if you're not jumping in immediately, I mean we've talked about

[00:39:20] this before always say yes, if someone is proposing something to you

[00:39:23] don't shut something down immediately because you will lose traction

[00:39:27] immediately if you do it there's there's really no coming back from it

[00:39:30] When you're losing 13 days of the game when you're down to 26 and so I

[00:39:35] do think his idea of I'm going to kind of lay back and take my time

[00:39:40] certainly did not benefit him.

[00:39:42] Yes, he had Charlie and that was great but you need to continue to

[00:39:47] develop and you need to continue to work with and and as Charlie did

[00:39:52] with like I was keeping all my options open and Ben just wasn't doing

[00:39:56] From the start and it's very hard to then get that momentum later on

[00:40:01] in the game.

[00:40:02] If you haven't done that at the beginning, yeah, yeah for Ben's part

[00:40:05] he said in interviews that he did more and it just wasn't shown and

[00:40:09] that he knew the power of the swing vote and use that perception of

[00:40:12] him as a goat to his own advantage.

[00:40:14] He also discussed how many of the times we saw him and Q kind of going

[00:40:18] at it.

[00:40:18] Those were planned as part of their smoke screen that led to so many

[00:40:22] going home with their idols.

[00:40:24] Yeah, and I thought that was fascinating because we really thought

[00:40:27] the two of them did not like each other and so if there really was

[00:40:30] this secret Q Ben Alliance happening which that's how it was in the

[00:40:36] Lions.

[00:40:37] I think it was a love-hate relationship or a strategy hate rule.

[00:40:43] I don't know what to call it but I I do think that there were issues

[00:40:48] between them but they played I think they probably got past those but

[00:40:53] continued to play it up to make it look like you know to keep Q as

[00:40:58] our cues definitely going this time.

[00:41:00] No need to play your idol.

[00:41:01] I think that definitely would they work together.

[00:41:05] I don't think they were in an Alliance per se.

[00:41:08] Yeah, it was it was at least a thing that they were that they were

[00:41:13] utilizing in order to affect the votes that were that were coming out

[00:41:17] so good for Ben for recognizing that and formulating and continuing

[00:41:23] that type of relationship and recognizing again perception becomes

[00:41:27] reality right so that's what people are seeing and that's what they're

[00:41:29] going to believe right now moving to Liz we have an interesting story

[00:41:34] arc to discuss and obviously have to talk about her overarching season

[00:41:39] long plan.

[00:41:40] Now I'll admit some of this goes into rule 6 territory because the plan

[00:41:44] involved ensuring she wasn't seen as a threat but since it was all

[00:41:48] scheming and strategy to accomplish that goal.

[00:41:50] I think this is the more appropriate place to discuss it.

[00:41:54] So Liz came in with the idea of creating an exaggerated persona of

[00:41:58] herself.

[00:41:59] She said in interviews that she knew she couldn't hide big chunks of

[00:42:03] her life, which is something we've talked about previously with you

[00:42:06] know, those who've tried and failed like Josh and 44 and if you come

[00:42:11] in saying you own a business and you sold others people are going to

[00:42:16] assume that you have money.

[00:42:18] So she played that up and made it sound like she had more money than

[00:42:25] she actually does and thus the legend of millionaire Liz was born which

[00:42:30] turned into the legend of rumored billionaire.

[00:42:37] All the way back to love this for her all the way back at episode 1 I

[00:42:42] was cringing because she was saying things about having so much money

[00:42:47] and I think this was also when I posted a tic-tac about it and when I

[00:42:52] first realized Liz followed me on Instagram, of course, I didn't know

[00:42:57] it was part of a big overall strategy and she certainly didn't reveal

[00:43:01] it right but she did remember and when she did her interview with

[00:43:04] Gordon Holmes.

[00:43:05] She shouted out that tick-tock that I made way at the beginning of

[00:43:09] the season.

[00:43:10] See those tic-tacs of yours they get so much traction.

[00:43:13] Well, it is funny because like when I met all the players or however

[00:43:18] many players in Chicago some of them many of them obviously, you know

[00:43:23] knew me from here.

[00:43:25] Some of them were like, oh yeah, I love your videos that you put out and

[00:43:29] I don't think they had any idea that

[00:43:33] we do a podcast.

[00:43:34] And then there were a couple of them who had no clue who I was but

[00:43:39] it's fine.

[00:43:41] Yeah, which was particularly funny because one of them had interacted

[00:43:45] with me on Instagram with some of the videos, but you know, there's

[00:43:48] a lot of names.

[00:43:49] I know that I believe me.

[00:43:51] I know that when I meet people and they're like, oh yeah, we we met

[00:43:55] and I'm like

[00:43:57] I'll have a word for it.

[00:43:59] I mean, all right when I knew so if I could meet someone there and

[00:44:03] you said hello to me, I probably remembered you sometimes it just

[00:44:06] takes a little kick in the you know to jolt my memory.

[00:44:09] But anyway,

[00:44:13] as getting back to Liz as the days went by

[00:44:17] she she, you know, just kept on going with her whole story after

[00:44:25] being medevacked.

[00:44:26] Randon told Rob that Liz was playing a very smart game and with her

[00:44:30] lifestyles of the rich and famous comments.

[00:44:32] Nobody viewed her as a threat and that people were sleeping on

[00:44:36] Liz and she's a very intelligent and strategic player.

[00:44:40] Yeah, and I think it's interesting because I think it was Stephen

[00:44:43] Fischbach that was talking about how he's kind of dreamed of this

[00:44:47] moment for someone in a final three to be to reveal that like hey

[00:44:53] by the way, like everything I told you wasn't true.

[00:44:55] Haha.

[00:44:56] This is what it really is.

[00:44:57] Yes, I'm curious to see like what their reaction would have been

[00:45:02] would they have been as impressed as Liz thought that they were

[00:45:05] all going to be that this wasn't actually who she was that she

[00:45:10] was this person and that she utilized this to have her threat

[00:45:14] level be minimized and allow her to stay in the game longer.

[00:45:17] It would have been a really incredible thing to see in a travel

[00:45:20] council.

[00:45:20] I have thoughts but I want to finish first because pretending to

[00:45:25] be rich wasn't the only part of her plan.

[00:45:29] We saw her avoid looking for idols not overtly being scheming

[00:45:34] when they were all and that she told Mike Blum everything I did

[00:45:40] was really intentional.

[00:45:42] I intentionally was bragging so you would think I was a little

[00:45:44] strange.

[00:45:45] I intentionally got rid of Tevin very early.

[00:45:48] You know, she added to Dalton Ross that was similar to Gabler

[00:45:51] making a move really quick and then kind of going under the radar

[00:45:54] Liz Gator.

[00:45:55] There we go.

[00:46:01] The Alice Gator and you know, she continued to Mike Blum that she

[00:46:08] noticed in addition to wanting to make a move early.

[00:46:11] She noticed Tevin and Hunter were the ones, you know acting as the

[00:46:15] main communicators to other players which somewhat cut her out of

[00:46:18] the loop.

[00:46:18] So she also wanted that to end which was also a contributing factor

[00:46:22] to her move.

[00:46:23] Now the final piece to our plan was as you said getting to final

[00:46:28] tribal Council and being like, ha ha.

[00:46:33] And so she was going to explain how she used that fake story to

[00:46:36] get them to take her to that point without her name ever being

[00:46:40] written down and then she would have told them the truth which

[00:46:43] is she's a single mom supporting three households.

[00:46:46] A lot of her family is still in poverty.

[00:46:49] And then you ask the question would it have worked?

[00:46:52] Obviously, it's impossible to say we don't have a choose your own

[00:46:55] adventure book to see you know, which we often wish we did.

[00:47:03] We know that Q and Maria said they voted for Kenzie in large part

[00:47:08] or fully because of her answer to the question about what she do

[00:47:11] with the money and yeah, we'll get to that in appendix B.

[00:47:13] But so Liz could have stepped into that role if that decision wasn't

[00:47:20] also influenced by other factors consciously or subconsciously.

[00:47:23] And while a couple jurors told her when she got to Ponderosa that

[00:47:28] they weren't planning to listen to anything she had to say if she

[00:47:32] had made it to the end.

[00:47:32] Well, that still left six others who might have.

[00:47:36] It's really and to say you're not going to listen.

[00:47:39] You can't really say that either because you don't know I mean

[00:47:44] based on what Ben said in his interviews.

[00:47:46] I think there were some who weren't interested in listening and

[00:47:50] oh, and I'm not saying that they're not but it is one of like you

[00:47:53] have an opportunity to talk and all right people would be swayed

[00:47:57] or not.

[00:47:58] Yeah.

[00:47:58] I mean, they're not going to literally plug their ears and go

[00:48:00] la la la la la.

[00:48:01] I didn't think that that's what they meant, but yeah, it is I

[00:48:06] I can understand not wanting to hear someone when they come in to

[00:48:11] Tribal Council, but also you don't have to completely just say

[00:48:18] well, we weren't going to listen anything you're going to say

[00:48:20] anyway.

[00:48:20] I mean, it's like that's just anyway.

[00:48:23] I'll move on.

[00:48:24] Yes.

[00:48:24] Yes.

[00:48:25] We know now the whole thing about this move is it's a huge risk

[00:48:32] because so many players have their minds made up before final

[00:48:36] Tribal Council.

[00:48:37] Yes.

[00:48:37] Someone saying we're not going to listen to you.

[00:48:39] Yeah, but we did see at least some of this jury who seemed willing

[00:48:44] to change their minds.

[00:48:46] Again, five of them say that they changed their minds, right?

[00:48:49] Right.

[00:48:49] Yeah.

[00:48:51] Again, we'll never know and to make matters worse while she was

[00:48:55] doing confessionals throughout the season about her plan production

[00:48:59] chose not to show any of that to us.

[00:49:02] I guess they must have figured since she didn't make it to the end

[00:49:06] to get to give that big reveal.

[00:49:08] They didn't have to show the strategy side of things and I really

[00:49:12] feel like we lost out on a lot of entertainment because of that

[00:49:14] decision.

[00:49:15] I you know, people were saying before release the band edit.

[00:49:18] I want release the Liz at it.

[00:49:20] Yes, and I agree because I do think that a lot of decisions that

[00:49:25] production makes some of it makes sense as far as the narrative

[00:49:30] that they want to tell the story but then other parts of it leave

[00:49:34] people questioning and wondering and I feel like this is one of

[00:49:37] those things that people are left questioning and wondering about

[00:49:41] Liz because they were missing a huge part of why she was playing

[00:49:46] the game.

[00:49:46] She was playing and I'm someone who understands when a huge chunk

[00:49:50] of your like gameplay is not included at all and leaves people

[00:49:54] questioning.

[00:49:55] Why did she do what she did?

[00:49:57] Well, you didn't see half of what I was doing because they decided

[00:50:00] to leave out a whole relationship that I had with someone and so

[00:50:03] I I think it would have been great for them to include it just so

[00:50:08] there would be some understanding as to why Liz's game is being

[00:50:13] perceived the way that is being perceived by the people playing

[00:50:16] the game with her but also like haha.

[00:50:19] This is this is why I'm doing it.

[00:50:21] You know, there's an explanation for it as well.

[00:50:23] Yeah, that was that would have been very nice instead and the

[00:50:26] worst part is I don't think it left people questioning.

[00:50:29] I think it left a certain segment of viewers hating.

[00:50:32] Oh, that entitled Liz.

[00:50:37] Yeah, she's rich and she thinks that she should get all the rewards

[00:50:41] and she thinks that she would have won even though all she did was

[00:50:46] lie around and talk about how she was rich and you know, it leaves

[00:50:52] the people who are not listening to this podcast.

[00:50:56] The people who don't look for interviews the you know, the vast

[00:50:59] majority of the viewing audience who watches the show and then

[00:51:03] moves on now the vast majority of them are just going to be huh.

[00:51:05] Okay and move on but of course there are right so the haters and

[00:51:10] they're the ones who have been jumping on Liz all season without

[00:51:14] realizing this was an entire plan.

[00:51:16] Yeah.

[00:51:17] Yeah, and I think that she should get credit for that plan for sure.

[00:51:23] Now if she's brought back she's not gonna be able to do that

[00:51:25] plan.

[00:51:25] She's going to have to you know, right and this is why it is this

[00:51:29] is why Survivor is very tricky because if you come in to play a

[00:51:33] particular way like you want to hide something about yourself like

[00:51:37] oh, I you know, I mean I was someone who did the same thing.

[00:51:39] You can't do it when you go if you're going to go back and play

[00:51:41] again because everybody knows everyone.

[00:51:43] I mean now they've seen it.

[00:51:46] Yeah, we'll have to see.

[00:51:47] I mean first she has to get invited back so we can only we can only

[00:51:51] hope and then she'll come in and say well since I was on Survivor,

[00:51:54] I grew my company five times and then sold it for three million

[00:51:57] dollars.

[00:51:58] So now I really am a millionaire.

[00:52:04] We'll see.

[00:52:05] So, all right.

[00:52:06] Well, finally we move on to Maria.

[00:52:09] We already talked about how many players thought Charlie was an

[00:52:13] extension of Maria.

[00:52:15] So that's a good indication that Maria herself was doing a good job

[00:52:18] of scheming as we said she was in the middle of Siga with Charlie

[00:52:23] and this was actually very close to something she planned before the

[00:52:27] game because

[00:52:29] She said in her pregame interviews that she wanted to pair up with

[00:52:32] another woman and run the game like Wendell and Dom or Jesse and

[00:52:36] Cody.

[00:52:37] It was Charlie instead of a woman, but it had the same effect.

[00:52:40] They were guiding the votes for a good chunk of the game and she

[00:52:43] was getting the credit for

[00:52:45] Yeah, and this is again what we what I've already mentioned about

[00:52:49] working as a duo who's going to get the credit for it and Wendell

[00:52:52] and Dom.

[00:52:52] That's a perfect perfect analogy and thing that we saw when they were

[00:52:56] in the final Tribal Council together and who's going to get credit for

[00:52:59] all of these moves because they're working so closely together and

[00:53:03] and I think that it was good that both Maria and Charlie recognize

[00:53:07] that at some point they're going to have to go their separate ways

[00:53:09] and at some point they're going to have to turn on each other and

[00:53:12] it's a matter of who's going to do that first and who's going to

[00:53:15] get to remove the other one from the game because they knew that they

[00:53:18] couldn't sit next to each other because of the game they were playing

[00:53:21] together. Right, right.

[00:53:23] Now Maria in addition to that did even more as she reached out and

[00:53:28] lifted Q from the survivor gutter making him essentially as we

[00:53:32] mentioned here her second number one.

[00:53:35] This was a huge move for her game.

[00:53:37] It gave her even more control

[00:53:40] at least for a while.

[00:53:42] The problem was something that we talked about earlier with you know,

[00:53:45] for hearing from Ben and the gathering of the goats, which was that

[00:53:49] Maria and Q

[00:53:51] kind of missed the forest for the trees.

[00:53:52] They missed the strategizing of the others around them because they

[00:53:56] were so sure that they were in control.

[00:53:59] Yeah, and I find it

[00:54:01] interesting that Maria was so blind to this.

[00:54:05] I can see Q being blind to it because that had been his entire game

[00:54:09] really was the idea that he was in charge and people doing what he

[00:54:13] wanted when in actuality they were making him feel as if he was but

[00:54:18] I find it interesting that Maria did not pick up on this at all and

[00:54:21] that she thought somehow that she was the one who is controlling

[00:54:26] things and in charge.

[00:54:27] So I don't know how she missed it.

[00:54:29] But but again, then that means gathering of the goats are doing

[00:54:33] very well right and how they were acting with her and saying thanks

[00:54:38] to her and convincing.

[00:54:44] They were all taking some lessons from Tevin apparently.

[00:54:47] Yes.

[00:54:49] Well, that's actually a good segue into the second rule which says

[00:54:52] not to scheme and plot too much and to keep your scheming secret

[00:54:55] because Maria and Charlie did a great job of hiding how close they

[00:54:59] were early on as she told Mike Bloom every morning.

[00:55:02] We would meet on the beach and we would connect no one would ever

[00:55:05] see us and that continued in the merge as well.

[00:55:09] Mariah even told Rob she could tell the two of them were close, but

[00:55:12] not how close right?

[00:55:15] The thing is as secret as her partnership with Charlie was the

[00:55:21] one she later created with Q was anything but yes, everyone knew

[00:55:27] they were working together closely.

[00:55:28] And of course Charlie helped by stoking the fire making it burn

[00:55:32] brightly her scheming with Q was definitely not kept secret.

[00:55:37] And this is where we have to give Charlie so much credit because

[00:55:41] and this is why I have to give him the credit as to why the

[00:55:46] relationship between Maria and Charlie was so well contained because

[00:55:51] we saw the exact opposite with Maria and Q.

[00:55:53] And so I do think that there is a lot to be said about Charlie

[00:55:58] managing that relationship the way that he did and you also mentioned

[00:56:02] stoking the flames, you know with the Q and Maria because he recognized

[00:56:06] what was happening.

[00:56:07] So of course he wants to highlight that and so this

[00:56:11] goes back towards his ability to play this game differently than

[00:56:15] Maria was playing it because he understood how to maintain the

[00:56:19] secrecy of this dynamic duo that had been created but then also

[00:56:23] how to burn this dynamic duo over here and throw them under the

[00:56:27] bus. So that's that's just more credit to Charlie.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:31] Now working or moving backwards from Maria.

[00:56:35] We already talked about Liz's strategy to avoid being seen as a

[00:56:38] threat and that certainly included not scheming and plotting too

[00:56:41] much as Hunter told Dalton Ross in his midseason interview Liz laid

[00:56:45] low for the first few days and then joined in with the fun at NAMI

[00:56:48] while making it seem like she wasn't rushing to strategize.

[00:56:52] Yes, but this also could have worked against her too.

[00:56:54] I mean she's not scheming and plotting too much but she wasn't

[00:56:59] appearing to do.

[00:57:00] She wasn't appearing to but again that was part of her, you know.

[00:57:04] Right.

[00:57:04] Here I am!

[00:57:05] Look at me! Exactly.

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:06] I have been scheming secretly while you have thought that I wasn't.

[00:57:09] Yes, again huge risk.

[00:57:12] Huge risk.

[00:57:13] Possibly major rewards possibly not if she had made.

[00:57:17] Right.

[00:57:18] Came so close.

[00:57:21] Now we already talked about Charlie in relationship to Maria, but

[00:57:24] he and Ben also kept a lid on how close they were as Ben told Dalton

[00:57:28] Ross, we downplayed our friendship to a lot of people.

[00:57:31] I don't think Maria knew how close Charlie and I were.

[00:57:34] I don't think Q knew and that ended up, you know, really helping

[00:57:37] both of them and again, it goes back to what Ben was saying and

[00:57:42] we've talked about a couple times now that Q and Maria just thought

[00:57:45] that they had everything on lock and they just they didn't see

[00:57:50] the relationships of the other people.

[00:57:52] Yes, agreed.

[00:57:55] So finally we get back to Kenzie.

[00:57:58] At the Merge, she took some specific actions to avoid being seen

[00:58:03] as a schemer.

[00:58:04] Thanks to Banu spreading that story earlier.

[00:58:07] Mermaid, dragon.

[00:58:09] After that, I don't think it was even a concern because people just

[00:58:14] didn't see her that way and she wasn't playing the type of game

[00:58:18] where it would look that way to anyone but Banu apparently.

[00:58:22] Yeah, right.

[00:58:25] Yes.

[00:58:25] Great.

[00:58:26] I agree.

[00:58:26] Yeah.

[00:58:27] All right, then we can move to the third rule which tells players

[00:58:29] to be flexible.

[00:58:30] I want to start with Charlie here because his whole game plan

[00:58:36] revolved around what he called the Kim Spradling strategy.

[00:58:41] Yes of having options all over the place.

[00:58:44] And of course you could see on our poster right there, you know,

[00:58:48] in rule three.

[00:58:50] There's the picture of Kim Spradling.

[00:58:54] So we saw it right away with him as he was in between alliances

[00:58:59] on Sega.

[00:59:00] The women pulled him into Charlie's Angels which they needed to

[00:59:04] because otherwise they would have just been Angels.

[00:59:07] Tim and Ben thought he was with them and indeed we already discussed

[00:59:11] how tight he actually was with them.

[00:59:13] And of course he had his number one in Maria then throughout the

[00:59:17] season.

[00:59:17] He talked about options so many times that I literally could have

[00:59:21] made a tick tock about him and this rule almost every single week.

[00:59:26] Yeah, like I did make a couple of them and then I have one in my

[00:59:30] draft still and I never made it because I'm like, oh, it's you

[00:59:33] know, the same as last week, you know, and that's not a criticism

[00:59:38] of him.

[00:59:38] That's emphasizing he knew what he was doing here.

[00:59:41] Yes, you know, he said in episode 11.

[00:59:44] This game is all about working with people adapting to what's

[00:59:47] in front of you and keeping your options open.

[00:59:50] He also talked about how his game was about options.

[00:59:54] He even gave himself two paths to the end all the way.

[00:59:58] We are working with Maria all the way till the moment she was

[01:00:02] voted out because he pretended to at least be considering her

[01:00:07] in case you found an idol in that last second.

[01:00:09] Yes, I think he is the epitome of what being flexible means

[01:00:15] because the word options.

[01:00:17] I do think.

[01:00:18] We need to replace someone on the poster.

[01:00:19] No, we're not replacing.

[01:00:22] I think he emulated her very, very well.

[01:00:25] Yes, and I mean, I do think that you were spot on with the word

[01:00:29] options.

[01:00:30] I think came out of his mouth every week because that's what he

[01:00:33] was always interested in having is multiple options and he did

[01:00:37] it in such a way that nobody knew that this is what he was

[01:00:40] doing, which makes it even better.

[01:00:42] So he's got all of these options.

[01:00:44] He has all of these paths.

[01:00:45] He can take and he's doing it in a way that isn't shining a

[01:00:49] light on himself and isn't calling attention to himself.

[01:00:52] So overall, I mean his flexibility in this game is what allowed

[01:00:56] him to make it to the final three because he had so many options

[01:00:59] to get there.

[01:01:00] Right, exactly.

[01:01:03] All right.

[01:01:03] Well, while Kenzie wasn't as specific in planning her game

[01:01:07] in that way, she did show a great deal of flexibility in her

[01:01:11] play. For example, when Rob asked her about handling situation

[01:01:15] where she was stifled by someone like you, she said she found

[01:01:19] a new place to fit in and a lot of her game was adapting, learning

[01:01:24] or leading to how she got in with the goats as we discussed.

[01:01:29] As she told Mike Bloom after Tiffany was voted out, I was pretty

[01:01:33] much attached myself to the goats, but I was still overhauling.

[01:01:37] I knew I could go with Q and Maria too if I wanted to go that

[01:01:41] way. I just didn't.

[01:01:42] I was like, I will lose.

[01:01:43] I have a shot the other way.

[01:01:45] Yeah, and she did the same thing with Hunter too.

[01:01:47] She considered working with Hunter and had conversations with

[01:01:51] him about using his idol, but then she also recognized if I

[01:01:55] attach myself to Hunter, then it's just he and I and we're alone.

[01:01:59] So she was certainly doing a very similar thing to Charlie, just

[01:02:03] not as not as clean as what Charlie was doing with keeping

[01:02:08] options open, but she was very aware of those options and how

[01:02:11] she needed to maneuver through them.

[01:02:14] But I also do think that part of her ability to be flexible

[01:02:19] came from her having to be flexible with some of the people

[01:02:22] that she was playing with.

[01:02:24] She didn't really have a choice, but to, you know, Q being one

[01:02:28] of the biggest examples here was she needed to recognize how

[01:02:32] she needed to be with Q in order to continue moving forward

[01:02:36] in the game.

[01:02:36] So, but again, that's a great, great thing for her to determine

[01:02:41] and play the game recognizing who she's playing this game

[01:02:44] with. Yeah.

[01:02:46] All right.

[01:02:46] Well, I don't have much to say about Ben's flexibility, maybe

[01:02:50] in part because he was kind of pushed to the bottom and therefore

[01:02:53] he didn't have much he could do differently.

[01:02:55] What do you think?

[01:02:57] Yeah, I mean, I don't feel like Ben necessarily had to be

[01:03:01] flexible because he was going along with Charlie, right?

[01:03:04] And Charlie was the one who was I think maneuvering so much

[01:03:08] of how this gathering of goats was going to be and his relationship

[01:03:12] with Ben was part of that.

[01:03:14] And so I think he just really was in a situation where flexibility

[01:03:17] wasn't necessary because he had found himself tied to people

[01:03:22] who are going to help maneuver him through the game.

[01:03:24] Yeah.

[01:03:26] Okay, so I think Liz had to show a lot of flexibility to enact

[01:03:30] her master plan and once she was left out of the hunter vote,

[01:03:35] she saw that she had to make a change and she did.

[01:03:40] Yeah, and I think that I think this was for Liz living this

[01:03:46] persona that she had created really because it became such

[01:03:51] a significant part of her game that we kind of missed out

[01:03:54] on until it was all explained to us.

[01:03:56] I do think doesn't allow us to appreciate the things that she

[01:03:59] was doing because of it because we didn't see that this is

[01:04:02] why she was doing a lot of the things she was doing.

[01:04:04] Right, right.

[01:04:07] All right.

[01:04:07] Well, ending with production.

[01:04:09] Yeah.

[01:04:10] Yeah, ending with Maria.

[01:04:13] I'm not sure about her in this room.

[01:04:15] She was pushing so much of the action and we already mentioned

[01:04:18] that those in the gathering of the goats lines didn't feel

[01:04:22] like she was really considering them as serious opposition.

[01:04:26] Yep, something that was emphasized when she said in the

[01:04:28] finale that you know, they came back after the Q vote and she

[01:04:32] was like, oh, you're actually playing or words to that effect.

[01:04:36] I don't remember the exact.

[01:04:37] Yeah.

[01:04:37] Yeah, but but Liz was so stunned.

[01:04:39] She said I have no words just a face, you know, like yeah,

[01:04:43] you know, like they had been controlling everything the goats

[01:04:47] had and here here's Maria coming in and saying, oh, you're

[01:04:51] actually playing and they're like, no, we've been playing you

[01:04:53] for a while.

[01:04:55] Yes, and so she didn't think she had to be flexible because

[01:04:58] she was in a position where again, I feel like I just have

[01:05:02] to keep giving credit to Charlie because Charlie was the one

[01:05:05] kind of maneuvering through all of these things and she thought

[01:05:09] that they were just leading the charge.

[01:05:11] But in actuality, he was the one that was making all of these

[01:05:13] things possible based upon the other relationships that he

[01:05:17] had created and the other options that he had provided to

[01:05:20] them.

[01:05:21] And so I don't think that she felt that she needed to be flexible

[01:05:25] even though at the beginning they really were the swing boats,

[01:05:29] right?

[01:05:29] They were at before the merge.

[01:05:31] They were making these decisions, right?

[01:05:33] So I guess you could determine that or see that as flexible

[01:05:37] because they had to make the decision.

[01:05:38] What's the best path for them to take?

[01:05:40] So there was some flexibility at the beginning of her game,

[01:05:42] but I think more towards the end.

[01:05:43] She didn't feel it was necessary.

[01:05:45] Yes.

[01:05:46] Yes.

[01:05:47] All right.

[01:05:47] Well, we could go to the fourth rule which tells players not

[01:05:49] to let their emotions control them.

[01:05:51] How do you think Kenzie did here?

[01:05:54] I think Kenzie was great honestly because I feel like a broken

[01:05:59] record, but I'm going to say Q again, you know, right?

[01:06:01] Like because she was she was she and Tiffany both we saw so

[01:06:06] many scenes with them discussing Q and how they were going

[01:06:10] to continue to work with Q and and the issues that they were

[01:06:13] having but understanding we're going to just like QBQ until

[01:06:18] we don't have to deal with Q anymore.

[01:06:20] And so she really could have been in a situation where she

[01:06:26] said something that would have blown up the relationship.

[01:06:30] She had created and I know she did say that they were getting

[01:06:32] along but she really had to keep those that part of her in

[01:06:36] check and when it got after you know into after the merge,

[01:06:40] it was even that much more necessary that she did not allow

[01:06:44] her feelings in relationship to Q and things he was doing get

[01:06:48] in the way of the game that she was playing.

[01:06:50] And so I do think that she managed to keep her emotions in

[01:06:53] check and really dealt with people the way that they needed

[01:06:58] to be dealt with on their emotional level as opposed to her

[01:07:02] emotional level.

[01:07:03] And so I think that that was a that speaks volumes.

[01:07:06] I think to the work that she does because she's interacting

[01:07:08] with people so often that she's understanding how she needs

[01:07:11] to interact with each person individually.

[01:07:13] Yeah, that's that's a really good point.

[01:07:15] I hadn't thought of it that way.

[01:07:18] Yeah going back to you know dealing with Q, you know, she

[01:07:21] even used that as her as an example in responding to Tevin's

[01:07:25] question and you know, she talked about how mad she was and

[01:07:28] wanted Q out but she had to put aside her emotions and get

[01:07:31] back in his good graces.

[01:07:32] And as I think back over the season, I could not come up

[01:07:36] with a time when she got visibly mad or did something.

[01:07:39] She shouldn't have because of her emotions.

[01:07:41] I mean sure she was upset when Tiffany was blindsided and

[01:07:44] nobody told her but she didn't really show that to the other

[01:07:47] players and she recovered from it quickly.

[01:07:51] And then like you said, you know, it came to dealing with

[01:07:54] other people.

[01:07:54] She was a rock for everyone else, you know, we'll talk about

[01:07:58] her her overall social game in the next rule, but we heard

[01:08:02] that, you know, we saw that she helped Ben and we heard she

[01:08:05] helped other people through rough times which of course meant

[01:08:08] being emotionally steady herself.

[01:08:10] Yeah.

[01:08:12] All right.

[01:08:12] So moving along.

[01:08:13] How do you think Charlie did here?

[01:08:15] Charlie, I think also did a great job because he was interacting

[01:08:19] with so many people and having to maintain relationships

[01:08:22] between so many people that I don't think he ever was playing

[01:08:27] an emotional game.

[01:08:27] I think his game was strategic options.

[01:08:30] I need to determine what's my best course of action to get

[01:08:34] where I need to go.

[01:08:35] And so I really don't think he had any any problems at all.

[01:08:38] And I mean, I'm going to jump ahead a little bit but he could

[01:08:43] have gotten really emotional towards the end there if you really

[01:08:46] wanted to but he also maintained his composure in that lovely

[01:08:52] aftershow.

[01:08:53] So give him a lot of a lot of credit for maintaining his composure

[01:08:58] the way that he did.

[01:09:00] Yeah, I agree.

[01:09:01] I think much like Kenzie.

[01:09:02] He kept his emotions very controlled probably more so, you know

[01:09:06] Ben told Mike Bloom Charlie such a diplomatic person.

[01:09:10] He never lost his cool.

[01:09:11] Yeah, I've seen some people saying Charlie controlled himself

[01:09:16] too much and wasn't as warm as Kenzie and from the TV show.

[01:09:20] I get that but everything we've heard from other players indicate

[01:09:25] he was warm funny, you know all those different things and again,

[01:09:30] we'll get to that more in the next rule, but it addresses the

[01:09:32] question of whether he controlled his emotions too much.

[01:09:36] Now that said I do think there was one important time where that

[01:09:39] might have been the case, but we'll get to that in Appendix B

[01:09:42] which is kind of a hint as to when I think that might have been.

[01:09:46] Okay.

[01:09:48] So until then let's move to Ben and what are your thoughts on

[01:09:51] him here?

[01:09:53] Oh my gosh, Ben said he cried more than anyone has probably ever

[01:09:57] cried when they played Survivor and I think that he was someone

[01:10:01] who came into this game not realizing the emotional toll that

[01:10:05] it was going to take on him now do I think that that necessarily

[01:10:09] affected the way that he played the game?

[01:10:12] I don't think that it did.

[01:10:14] I think it affected how other people needed to play with him

[01:10:17] because he was having so many emotional responses to parts of

[01:10:22] this game.

[01:10:23] And so he was kind of like an interesting mix where he was

[01:10:27] overcome with emotion and being aided by other people to kind

[01:10:31] of keep him in check.

[01:10:32] So he was lucky to have people around him that were so willing

[01:10:35] to do that and then bring him back to the space that he needed

[01:10:38] to be in but I don't think that the emotional component took

[01:10:42] over his game plays necessarily.

[01:10:45] Yeah, I mean that's the same thing I was going to say and again,

[01:10:47] you know, we can use as an example him secretly working with

[01:10:50] Q when so many of the others thought they hated each other

[01:10:54] and you know, even amping up that appearance so the target

[01:10:57] would buy it even more.

[01:10:59] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:00] Yeah.

[01:11:01] So as we move to Liz, I want to refer back to our discussion

[01:11:05] of her in the first rule where she said she did everything

[01:11:08] in the game with intention.

[01:11:11] Except she added the moment that will live on in infamy from

[01:11:16] this season her getting pissed about Q's Applebee's reward

[01:11:23] decision.

[01:11:24] Yeah, as we discussed when it happened and as she then later

[01:11:28] told Mike if you watch it back you can see I lost it and then

[01:11:32] I got it back very quickly.

[01:11:34] Hmm.

[01:11:35] I think it actually garnered me some respect maybe not with

[01:11:37] everyone but especially with the final four I think with Venus

[01:11:41] and maybe even a little of Tiff because she blew up on Q2.

[01:11:45] And so people said, you know what Liz I've been wanting to

[01:11:48] do that to Q for days.

[01:11:50] I've been suppressing my anger around him and you just let

[01:11:53] her rip and isn't that remarkable in a game for a million

[01:11:56] dollars that you are not afraid to express yourself.

[01:11:59] And then she's like because I'm a billionaire so right, right

[01:12:03] and then she continued and I think because I was willing to

[01:12:06] talk about it and say, oh my gosh, I've never done that

[01:12:08] before.

[01:12:09] I think it helped me gain some respect.

[01:12:12] Now, I want to add I wouldn't exactly recommend this in

[01:12:16] general to players, you know, no not a David Bloomberg rules

[01:12:20] approved, you know thing here but showing some emotional

[01:12:25] and emotion in a very stressful situation can help humanize

[01:12:29] yourself.

[01:12:31] Yeah.

[01:12:31] I also wonder if it ended up helping the others bond more

[01:12:35] in openly discussing the targeting of Maria because after

[01:12:38] Maria did a poor job of handling her pizza reward decision

[01:12:42] the others, you know talk about that without you know, hiding

[01:12:47] it or keeping it inside.

[01:12:49] If Liz hadn't kind of broken the ice on letting emotions out

[01:12:52] previously, maybe they would have held it inside instead.

[01:12:57] But again, like I said, I'm not adding it to the rule and

[01:13:00] advising others to do it.

[01:13:02] This was very situation specific.

[01:13:04] Yeah, these food reward things they can make people do crazy

[01:13:08] crazy things.

[01:13:09] So you just never know with those I caution future survivor

[01:13:15] players make those decisions wisely.

[01:13:18] Yeah.

[01:13:19] Yeah.

[01:13:19] Yeah.

[01:13:20] Now, of course I do want to add that moment did not Define

[01:13:23] Liz in this rule at other points in the game.

[01:13:25] She recognized it was a battle between her mind and her heart

[01:13:28] and she was another person running theme here who really

[01:13:32] wanted Q gone but realized that they needed to put that aside

[01:13:36] and keep him around.

[01:13:38] Q is like the test for everybody in this rule like he really

[01:13:41] was like deal with Q.

[01:13:43] Yes plus minus, you know, and I think it's fascinating and

[01:13:47] I know I'm just going to mention this could probably has

[01:13:49] nothing to do with this particular rule.

[01:13:50] But like the amount of people in the exit press that we're

[01:13:54] talking about Q winning in the end.

[01:13:56] I was like, this is the question that I think so many of us

[01:13:59] had like could he have pulled it off knowing what he had done

[01:14:03] and the world in which he had created but it was almost like

[01:14:07] this is Q's world and we're all living in it.

[01:14:09] And so if he had made it to the final three, it would have

[01:14:12] been a really interesting argument for him to make.

[01:14:15] Yeah.

[01:14:15] Yeah.

[01:14:17] Now one other thing that I want to mention for Liz in this

[01:14:21] rule is that on the show and on Twitter and even in Chicago

[01:14:25] when she was talking to fans Liz mentioned her own ego numerous

[01:14:29] times.

[01:14:30] She recognizes it.

[01:14:32] She uses it humorously, which I think as someone who has a

[01:14:37] sign that says David you're right in the background of every

[01:14:40] podcast.

[01:14:41] So I may know a little bit about this.

[01:14:43] Yeah, you might.

[01:14:44] Um, so but the thing is in the game someone who knows that

[01:14:49] about themselves they can adjust accordingly in the game.

[01:14:53] Yeah, and I think that that's always good to recognize about

[01:14:57] yourself knowing who you are and what you're bringing into

[01:15:00] the game and then knowing how it will be perceived and knowing

[01:15:03] how to present it to people.

[01:15:04] So it's good for her that she came in mindful of that and

[01:15:08] then that was how she presented herself to the individuals

[01:15:12] that were playing the game with her.

[01:15:13] Yeah.

[01:15:15] All right.

[01:15:15] Well moving to Maria, we know at the end when she knew her

[01:15:19] game was over.

[01:15:19] She got choked up talking in Tribal Council about her kids

[01:15:23] and their impressions of her and everything.

[01:15:25] But other than that, what did you think of her in terms

[01:15:27] of this rule?

[01:15:29] I don't think that she really had any issues here either.

[01:15:31] I mean, I and I it again it all depends on your place in

[01:15:36] the game and she found herself in a great place because

[01:15:39] she had Charlie at the beginning and she still had Charlie

[01:15:41] at the end and she felt like she was in control and making

[01:15:44] the decisions.

[01:15:45] And so I don't think that she was ever in a position where

[01:15:48] this became an issue for her at all.

[01:15:50] Yeah, I think Jeff said it well on his podcast that Maria

[01:15:54] kept her emotions very contained.

[01:15:57] Yes.

[01:15:58] I feel that's a good word because sometimes it seemed like

[01:16:00] they would come bursting out but she she locked them down.

[01:16:05] Yeah, even when Liz teamed up with Kenzie against her in

[01:16:08] what would be the last her last immunity challenge.

[01:16:11] She had a moment where she walked a few feet away and you

[01:16:13] could see by the look on her face face.

[01:16:17] She was like seething.

[01:16:19] Yes, but she recovered so quickly.

[01:16:22] Yeah way faster than I would have.

[01:16:25] Oh, yeah.

[01:16:27] How did just been like

[01:16:32] this was a situation where she knew they just did something

[01:16:35] out of the ordinary to essentially end her game.

[01:16:40] It would have been perfectly understandable if she had her

[01:16:42] own I'm pissed moment, right?

[01:16:46] You know instead she calmly responded to Jeff's question

[01:16:49] about the situation because she knew that while her game was

[01:16:53] probably over there was still that sliver of a chance and

[01:16:57] she had to kind of keep hope alive.

[01:17:00] Yeah, and that's what you have to do.

[01:17:01] You just always have to hope that there's something else

[01:17:04] more for you and you can't you can't lose it and then

[01:17:08] moment. You just can't

[01:17:10] now more generally speaking.

[01:17:12] I think it's worth noting that the others called Maria the

[01:17:15] survivor assassin because she pick a target and go after

[01:17:18] them and she kept her emotions out of it and focused on the

[01:17:22] job at hand like any good assassin.

[01:17:25] I mean, there's really a quote-unquote good assassin, but

[01:17:29] you know what I mean,

[01:17:32] just like the dirty pictures that I was talking about.

[01:17:35] There's always another you know, another meaning.

[01:17:38] Yes.

[01:17:41] All right.

[01:17:42] Well, we can move on to the fifth rule which reminds players

[01:17:44] they need to pretend to be nice and play the social game.

[01:17:47] And of course this is where Kenzie's light was the brightest.

[01:17:50] Yeah, and you know, she expected it to be the major part

[01:17:54] of her game going in as she noted that to be a hairstylist

[01:17:57] and business owner you have to be socially savvy.

[01:18:01] I mentioned in our pregame podcast that we could look at

[01:18:03] Jam Jam for that.

[01:18:05] And here we are with another hairstylist business owner

[01:18:09] winner.

[01:18:09] I know and we talked about that if that was going to be like

[01:18:12] a thing if that was going to be like something people considered

[01:18:15] well, it wasn't before it certainly should be now.

[01:18:19] I mean people should go in and say I'm not a hairstylist.

[01:18:22] I'm a lawyer.

[01:18:24] I know turn yourself into a lawyer now instead.

[01:18:26] That'll be great.

[01:18:28] Yeah, crazy.

[01:18:30] I do.

[01:18:30] I mean, I do think that Kenzie really I mean as you said,

[01:18:33] she really did shine in this in this regard and I thought

[01:18:36] Charlie had an interesting way of referencing this because

[01:18:41] he said that like her social game was her strategy.

[01:18:44] And so we do separate the two as we should but at the same

[01:18:49] time she recognized that that is really going to be her

[01:18:52] biggest strategic ability is her social ability.

[01:18:55] And so the fact that she knew that coming in and that's

[01:18:58] what she leaned in heavy on is just to her credit to

[01:19:03] recognize how people would perceive her and she did say in

[01:19:07] her pregame press that she wanted to like play up being

[01:19:11] dumb and just be very social and she used those opportunities

[01:19:15] to learn as much about everybody that she was with so then

[01:19:19] she would formulate some type of a bond or create some type

[01:19:22] of relationship with them no matter who it was no matter

[01:19:25] what the connection might be.

[01:19:28] But again because of her job she understands how she has

[01:19:31] to do that every day when she's meeting with people and

[01:19:33] she's sitting with them doing their hair.

[01:19:35] And so I think that she just really came into it understanding

[01:19:39] what she was really really good at and that's what she just

[01:19:42] she just did fantastic in this regard.

[01:19:45] Yeah.

[01:19:46] Yeah.

[01:19:46] I mean the key part this key part of Kenzie was evident from

[01:19:50] the start, you know way back in episode 2 Tiffany and Q twice

[01:19:54] discussed that Kenzie has a vibrant personality and brings

[01:19:58] people in and it certainly continued throughout the game

[01:20:02] a social game like that is the most difficult thing for

[01:20:05] production to show we have talked about this before.

[01:20:09] You know, Kenzie told Rob so much of her game wasn't flashy.

[01:20:12] It was just sitting at camp and talking to people and of

[01:20:15] course, we couldn't see every aspect of it right?

[01:20:19] They dropped in plenty of scenes to highlight it and I think

[01:20:23] they did a much better job this season than they have in

[01:20:25] the past probably because of 90 minute episodes and they

[01:20:30] showed us scenes of Kenzie with different people that seemed

[01:20:35] like they were just nice scenes of camp life, you know, they

[01:20:39] weren't part of the overall storyline.

[01:20:42] Now, of course this upset some viewers because they felt

[01:20:45] it made it obvious that Kenzie would win because why else

[01:20:47] would they show this and I thought some of the same things.

[01:20:50] I just thought oh, well, it's a distraction.

[01:20:52] They're not really doing that or at least I convinced myself

[01:20:54] that but it's really the only way to showcase this type of

[01:20:59] game and I'm glad they did so we didn't get to the end and

[01:21:03] have the same questions people ask of what did she do like

[01:21:06] we've had for some previous social game players, right?

[01:21:10] Yeah, and I think that it's it is she's right and it is the

[01:21:14] hardest part to actually show on TV because it's not flashy

[01:21:17] and it's not like big game moves, but it is so important

[01:21:21] Because what does it turn into in the final Tribal Council?

[01:21:25] Sometimes people may vote to who they like more as opposed

[01:21:30] to the game that this person was necessarily playing and so

[01:21:33] that's why those relationships become so significant because

[01:21:37] if there is a bond that you've created with someone the person

[01:21:40] sitting there that's looking across at these three individuals

[01:21:43] might say well, I think they all played a great game.

[01:21:45] However, I connected with Kenzie the most she was someone

[01:21:49] that I had a connection with and I want to reward that as

[01:21:54] opposed to just the game of this person was playing and so

[01:21:58] that it really it plays a huge role when someone is sitting

[01:22:01] there having to choose between two people or three people

[01:22:04] who is it they like more that that's literally what it can

[01:22:07] boil down to right?

[01:22:09] Yeah, in addition to what we saw Kenzie further explained

[01:22:11] her game in final Tribal Council and then in interviews, for

[01:22:14] example in responding to show his question.

[01:22:16] She said she was a social player.

[01:22:18] She was not the driving voice, but she was a number, you know

[01:22:22] quote my social game is my strategic game.

[01:22:24] She noted that she knows they're supposed to be separate,

[01:22:28] but she's a people person and that got her brought along on

[01:22:31] the votes now personally I've said before here and elsewhere

[01:22:35] that saying you got brought along on votes or you were a number

[01:22:40] isn't a convincing argument to me and it clearly wasn't what

[01:22:45] it was looking for but for Kenzie, it was more of a descriptive

[01:22:50] part of her overall game and she further talked about having

[01:22:54] the one-on-one moments with all of the jurors and expanded

[01:22:57] on that more in postgame interviews.

[01:22:59] For example, she told Mike Bloom.

[01:23:00] I really am just a people person and there's so much time out

[01:23:04] there that all there is to do is talk sometimes and I really

[01:23:08] do build bonds so quickly some, you know, sometimes I'm just

[01:23:11] doing someone's hair for 30 minutes and I have to make them

[01:23:14] feel special and included and I love getting to know people.

[01:23:17] She added to Dalton Ross.

[01:23:19] I really did work hard at connecting with everyone as hard

[01:23:22] as I could especially post merge.

[01:23:24] I wanted to build bridges with everybody.

[01:23:26] I think my strategy was just to be authentically myself and

[01:23:29] hope that that showed through to the jury.

[01:23:32] Now in that interview, she also specifically mentioned how

[01:23:35] she spent a lot of time getting to know Maria and while it

[01:23:38] certainly wasn't as much time or as well as Charlie quote at

[01:23:41] the end of the day, you never know what people are going to

[01:23:44] vote for or what speaks to them.

[01:23:47] Yes.

[01:23:47] Yes.

[01:23:50] I think that's key not only for Maria but for some others

[01:23:53] too. The more time you spend with someone the better you get

[01:23:56] to know them the more likely you are to form those connections

[01:23:59] you were talking about, you know, presuming of course that

[01:24:01] you enjoy their company which was obviously the queue.

[01:24:04] There are some people the more time you spend with them the

[01:24:06] more you want to vote them out, but that you know, that's

[01:24:08] that's fair whole different thing.

[01:24:10] Yeah, and I will say that her argument about being brought

[01:24:13] along on the vote.

[01:24:15] I feel like it that can be perceived badly but it can also

[01:24:19] be done in a different way, right?

[01:24:21] You can be brought along on a vote just because people are

[01:24:23] like, oh, well, they'll do whatever we tell them to do.

[01:24:25] It doesn't matter.

[01:24:26] So that's kind of being brought along but I feel like she

[01:24:29] was also actively engaged in discussions about those votes.

[01:24:33] And so while she wasn't the person forefront saying this

[01:24:37] is what we need to do.

[01:24:38] She was part of the discussion people weren't just

[01:24:40] coming to her and going.

[01:24:41] This is what we're doing.

[01:24:42] She was talking it through with these people and she was

[01:24:45] able to do that because of the relationships that she had

[01:24:48] created and because she had had those conversations with

[01:24:51] individuals.

[01:24:52] So I feel like it's a different type of being brought along

[01:24:54] because you are part of the decision as opposed to just

[01:24:57] being told what to do.

[01:24:59] Yeah, that's a very good point moving to Charlie.

[01:25:03] I mentioned in rule for that some viewers didn't think he

[01:25:06] was as warm as Kenzie, but I want to again emphasize that

[01:25:08] this is an edited show.

[01:25:10] Production focus their prime the primary strategy aspect

[01:25:13] of Charlie, but everything we've heard indicate.

[01:25:16] He's a great guy as well and was fun to talk to and fun

[01:25:19] to hang out with and all that and you know with that said

[01:25:23] I don't think he has quite the same light, you know coming

[01:25:26] out of him as Kenzie does he comes from a different world,

[01:25:30] you know, he was in law school which by the way congratulations

[01:25:33] to Charlie for graduating like a day after the finale.

[01:25:36] Yeah Congrats, you know, he didn't get the million but he

[01:25:40] still got a pretty nice gift for his graduation day whole

[01:25:44] lot of bills.

[01:25:45] Yes, well and a big big deposit in his account to to hopefully

[01:25:51] oh, well, that's true too.

[01:25:52] Yes.

[01:25:52] Yeah, but you know, but that was his world law school and

[01:25:57] the legal world and he said in pregame also that he enjoyed

[01:26:01] debate and these are not areas where you have.

[01:26:10] The types of relationships like Kenzie or jam jam do with

[01:26:13] people.

[01:26:14] I mean, yeah, if you're a trial attorney you want jurors

[01:26:17] and the judge to like you.

[01:26:20] Well, okay, you can speak better than this than me.

[01:26:22] So, you know, go ahead.

[01:26:24] Tell people how you let your personality show well, and

[01:26:27] I will say as a trial attorney it is difficult to show your

[01:26:32] personality and continue that analytical type of perception

[01:26:38] or the way that you want people to see the evidence in

[01:26:40] the case.

[01:26:41] It's a very hard balance to find and I do think that there

[01:26:44] are attorneys that I have seen that are much better at it

[01:26:47] than other attorneys jurors don't love it when someone stands

[01:26:50] in front of them and just kind of talks at them and tells

[01:26:54] them in a way that makes I am smarter and better than you

[01:26:58] and because I am a lawyer nobody likes that right, but I do

[01:27:02] think that there is something to be said about the person

[01:27:05] that finds that balance and I feel like Charlie probably

[01:27:08] just hasn't found that balance yet because when you're in

[01:27:10] law school, they're very much teaching you to be analytical

[01:27:13] and to be like you have to be very regimented in your thinking

[01:27:16] and your thought process and your planning and then that

[01:27:18] can come across as your I know some lawyers who must have

[01:27:20] failed those classes, but it's but it is an interesting thing

[01:27:26] that when you're in law school, you are taught to be a little

[01:27:29] more and I hate to say the term robotic but it is because

[01:27:34] you have to be very like and it's partly emotion.

[01:27:37] It's partly it's all of these things where you're like you

[01:27:40] have to you have to look at something very analytically

[01:27:43] and it has to fit within this box and these are the points

[01:27:46] and this is how you got to get there and so that can affect

[01:27:49] your ability to express yourself because some attorneys feel

[01:27:52] like they shouldn't be able to I think Charlie is going

[01:27:55] to end up doing a phenomenal job in the attorney world in

[01:28:00] which he will exist because I think he's going to recognize

[01:28:03] that he's that he needs to do a little bit more of that

[01:28:06] warm and fuzzy like that's okay.

[01:28:08] Like you can be that way but you have to give yourself

[01:28:11] permission to be that way when you're a lawyer because

[01:28:13] you sometimes feel like you can't be that way, but I think

[01:28:16] Charlie is I mean, he's very new.

[01:28:18] He just graduated.

[01:28:19] I think he's going to do great.

[01:28:21] He's been the most difficult jury setting possible.

[01:28:28] So I think he's got a lot of a lot of ability now to understand

[01:28:32] what it feels like to be in front of a jury.

[01:28:34] But yeah, I mean it is just one of those things that they're

[01:28:38] where they come from Kenzie versus Charlie.

[01:28:41] I think it has a huge effect on how you are around the people

[01:28:46] that you are around because of what you're doing with your

[01:28:49] with your career with your life where you're at so I can

[01:28:53] understand how he didn't exude that part of himself the same

[01:28:57] way because he's been kind of in this structured environment

[01:29:00] going to law school for so many years at that point.

[01:29:03] Yeah.

[01:29:03] Yeah, I agree.

[01:29:04] I'll have one more thing to think to say about that related

[01:29:08] once we get to appendix B but speaking of different types

[01:29:11] of personalities we go to Ben next early in the season.

[01:29:15] I wondered if he was playing a social game or just being

[01:29:18] socially great as we got to know him better.

[01:29:21] It was clearly the latter.

[01:29:24] Yeah, there was game to it.

[01:29:26] But most of it was been being Ben.

[01:29:29] Mariah said back in episode 5 Ben is the most charismatic

[01:29:32] likable enjoyable guy I've ever met in my life.

[01:29:34] Ben can charm anyone.

[01:29:37] Yes, and I think that this is kind of a difference that we

[01:29:39] see with he and Kenzie where they both have that same ability

[01:29:44] but Kenzie was utilizing it in her game right more so than

[01:29:48] Ben Ben was just kind of shredding and living his best

[01:29:52] life out there and enjoying himself which is great but you

[01:29:56] have to be able to develop that into the game that you want

[01:29:58] to play in addition to shredding and just having a great time.

[01:30:03] Yeah.

[01:30:03] Yeah, and I mean that's perfect.

[01:30:05] You know, that's that that sums it up.

[01:30:08] You know that we've said it before the social game isn't

[01:30:11] just being nice.

[01:30:12] It's using that to further what you want in the game and

[01:30:15] you know, Ben had unfortunately gotten on the wrong side

[01:30:17] of Maria and Q from from misreads and that led to them

[01:30:21] spreading misinformation about him and that's why he's

[01:30:25] information about him that I think really impacted on his

[01:30:28] ability to game for a while.

[01:30:31] Yeah, plus I think that there may have been an impression

[01:30:34] that Ben needed support while Kenzie was the one who supported

[01:30:38] others and you know, the second part was certainly true and

[01:30:40] Ben did get support throughout the game.

[01:30:43] It was outside of his control and certainly in life should

[01:30:46] not be viewed as a negative but I do think it may have

[01:30:48] impacted what others thought of him in the game.

[01:30:51] Yeah.

[01:30:52] Now switching over to Liz we have another situation where

[01:30:55] what we saw of her social game wasn't really equivalent

[01:30:58] to what she was actually doing.

[01:31:00] We saw glimpses of her being funny like her Mimos get coming

[01:31:04] into the challenge in the finale and from everything we've

[01:31:07] heard.

[01:31:08] She really did connect with people out there, but instead

[01:31:11] of seeing her bonding at camp more often.

[01:31:13] We saw her lying in the shelter because she was weak from

[01:31:16] lack of food or seeming like she was a bit nuts or something,

[01:31:20] you know, Kenzie even said in interviews that she wished

[01:31:23] Liz would have been shown looking less crazy.

[01:31:26] Yeah.

[01:31:27] I mean and she did say that there was something to be said

[01:31:30] about the way Liz was playing the game and that we really

[01:31:33] didn't get to see it as much and this is why it would have

[01:31:36] been nice if production had let us in on Liz's little secret

[01:31:39] because then maybe we would have understood it a little

[01:31:41] bit more but they didn't.

[01:31:43] Yeah.

[01:31:44] Yeah going back to when she yelled a cue.

[01:31:46] She said in interviews that it actually could be exact used

[01:31:49] as an example of what a good social game.

[01:31:51] She was playing.

[01:31:52] She told Mike Bloom people despite me losing it were like,

[01:31:56] oh, yeah, we're going to hear this out and that actually

[01:31:59] makes sense.

[01:32:00] So it actually solidified a lot of relationships with me

[01:32:04] and then even after the fact she and Q talked and they talked

[01:32:08] through it.

[01:32:09] Right?

[01:32:09] And I think that that speaks volumes of her willingness

[01:32:13] and desire to form a bond if she can understanding that's

[01:32:18] not going to work.

[01:32:18] I can't work with Q but still willing to have those

[01:32:21] conversations not shut it off completely and talk through

[01:32:25] that with him.

[01:32:26] I think that's really really great that we were able to

[01:32:28] at least do that one time.

[01:32:30] Yeah.

[01:32:31] Now I met and talked to Liz in Chicago and I saw how she

[01:32:35] interacted with people you ate a burger with her.

[01:32:38] Well, she ate the burger.

[01:32:39] I had chicken.

[01:32:42] It's very important that everyone knows.

[01:32:44] Yes.

[01:32:46] Now it was amazing how she made everybody feel important

[01:32:51] that everybody she met now and I'm not saying she was

[01:32:54] faking it.

[01:32:54] They really were important to her.

[01:32:57] She tweeted after the event that she wished she could

[01:32:59] personally thank every person she met and it was a blessing

[01:33:02] to be a small part of something that brings so much joy

[01:33:05] and she further thanked everyone for their kind words

[01:33:07] and said it meant so much to her.

[01:33:09] Now, I noted in a response to this that this was a perfect

[01:33:13] example of the Liz I saw in person as she interacted

[01:33:16] with so many people with gratitude and kindness to everyone

[01:33:20] she met.

[01:33:22] That's so nice.

[01:33:23] Yeah, and she has a burger buff.

[01:33:24] I'm just gonna say does she does that's awesome.

[01:33:29] She is a burger buff and she has a burger buff.

[01:33:34] That's a nice little play.

[01:33:35] I like that.

[01:33:37] Very nice.

[01:33:38] So now moving on to Maria now, I also met Marie in Chicago.

[01:33:42] It was for a much briefer time.

[01:33:44] She had her family there and so I didn't see her interacting

[01:33:49] with the fans or anything like that.

[01:33:51] So I can't add anything here from that perspective, but

[01:33:55] on the show itself, we already discussed her being the assassin

[01:33:58] and that meant sometimes making game decisions that weren't

[01:34:02] very popular like the pizza reward.

[01:34:05] She talked in interviews about how she had to decide between

[01:34:08] her head and her heart and she went with her head for the

[01:34:11] sake of her game.

[01:34:12] Did it get people mad at her?

[01:34:14] Yeah.

[01:34:15] Yeah, very much.

[01:34:16] So yeah, did it possibly bring them together to focus on

[01:34:20] her more as I mentioned earlier?

[01:34:22] Yes.

[01:34:23] But I do think that all the other reasons for her being

[01:34:27] a threat that we're about to discuss would have done that

[01:34:31] anyway, you know, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

[01:34:35] I wouldn't say at all.

[01:34:37] She had a problem in the social game and I think she used

[01:34:40] her social game to help bring Q on board with her like no

[01:34:43] one was willing to go talk to him except for her.

[01:34:46] Yeah, that's fair.

[01:34:49] But she didn't seem to be overall in the same League as

[01:34:53] the other four people were discussing today.

[01:34:55] Yeah, and I just want to make note of something here that

[01:34:58] I thought was fascinating pregame before they even went out

[01:35:02] there.

[01:35:03] One of the things that Kenzie said was the woman who is

[01:35:07] older with the dark hair has not smiled at me once not

[01:35:10] once and I've tried I've tried so I'm hoping she's missing

[01:35:14] her kids or something and I just thought that was interesting

[01:35:16] because going back and and remembering what people were

[01:35:19] saying about Kenzie pregame they and they were very much

[01:35:23] like, oh, I want to meet her.

[01:35:25] She's like seems like the life of the party and then to

[01:35:29] hear Kenzie say this about Maria is this it's like what

[01:35:33] type of vibe are you giving off even pregame right and

[01:35:37] that's going to be carried into the game itself.

[01:35:39] So I thought that that was an interesting little tidbit of

[01:35:42] information about what Kenzie knew of Maria even going

[01:35:46] into the game.

[01:35:47] Yeah, and perhaps how Maria ended up presenting herself

[01:35:50] to people during the game.

[01:35:51] Yeah.

[01:35:51] I mean some people just the way they look, you know, I mean

[01:35:56] I look I generally am a smiler, you know, but there have

[01:36:02] been times when I was at work where I'd be walking down

[01:36:04] the hall and I'd be thinking about something and apparently

[01:36:07] I had a look on my face where someone would say something

[01:36:10] like oh smile.

[01:36:11] It's not that bad.

[01:36:12] I mean right first of all, you don't know that maybe I just

[01:36:16] got a horrible phone call and I'm rushing right my car.

[01:36:18] Right?

[01:36:19] Yeah, you have no idea.

[01:36:20] So no don't say that to people but beyond that it wasn't

[01:36:25] that I was just thinking and my face naturally went to

[01:36:28] a specific, you know, you know way of looking and so yeah,

[01:36:33] some people are naturally just you know, they have resting

[01:36:38] happy face and other people don't.

[01:36:40] Yeah, you can say it.

[01:36:41] They have resting bitch face.

[01:36:42] It's okay.

[01:36:42] I didn't want to say that because I don't know that that's

[01:36:46] the case here.

[01:36:46] So, you know, I'm not saying that it is but I have had those

[01:36:51] same exact moments when I'm at work where people are like

[01:36:54] boy, what's wrong with you?

[01:36:55] And it's like do you have any idea like what's swirling

[01:36:57] around here?

[01:36:58] Like I'm okay.

[01:36:58] Just I have 20 things that I have to think about right now.

[01:37:01] Right.

[01:37:02] My daughter has the same type of it where it's just like

[01:37:04] you're you're just well, your daughter is a clone of you.

[01:37:07] Your daughter is a clone.

[01:37:10] She is so I which is awesome.

[01:37:12] I love it.

[01:37:13] Yeah, so I but I do think that this is something that you

[01:37:16] have to think about when you're playing survivor is that

[01:37:18] when you know, the facial expressions carry a lot and people

[01:37:22] can read into that especially when you're not talking to

[01:37:24] people when you're doing pregame because you're not allowed

[01:37:27] to and if people are noticing Kenzie because she seems

[01:37:31] smiling exuberant and very bubbly and Maria is not then

[01:37:36] that's something that Maria might have to overcome when

[01:37:38] she's been playing the game where as opposed to Kenzie

[01:37:42] might they people might help.

[01:37:44] Gravitate toward her right?

[01:37:46] Right.

[01:37:48] All right.

[01:37:49] Well, the sixth rule warns against being too much of a

[01:37:51] threat.

[01:37:52] Who should we start with on this one?

[01:37:54] Oh, yeah Maria.

[01:37:57] She was acknowledged by everyone to be the biggest threat

[01:38:00] in the game.

[01:38:02] We could go through some quotes and thoughts from other

[01:38:04] players over the past few weeks much like I've done with

[01:38:07] the past couple episodes.

[01:38:09] Kenzie told Liz Maria is the kingpin Kenzie also said Maria

[01:38:13] has the best story the best moves Liz it rewards said Maria

[01:38:16] is the biggest threat Kenzie added.

[01:38:18] She's so good at everything.

[01:38:20] She could even make fire too.

[01:38:21] She's unstoppable then Maria one immunity again leading

[01:38:25] Kenzie to say Maria is the biggest threat out here.

[01:38:28] Ben said that the reward Maria is the whole package multiple

[01:38:31] immunities decimated people's gameplay played an epic game

[01:38:35] of deception and so on and the thing is while the players

[01:38:41] could see this for themselves.

[01:38:43] We talked earlier about how Charlie was helping to boost

[01:38:45] it in episode 11.

[01:38:48] He kind of fed Maria's ego by congratulating her on the

[01:38:51] Tiffany move both making her feel good, but also noting

[01:38:56] to us that it's good.

[01:38:59] For the double-edged part of the sword making her more

[01:39:03] of a target and he said he wanted Maria to have sole credit

[01:39:06] for the Tiffany vote because he wanted someone he could

[01:39:09] sell as the biggest threat and you know, then he added to

[01:39:13] Kenzie and Venus just to make doubly sure that Maria and

[01:39:17] Q are the tightest pair.

[01:39:19] Yeah, and I mean, I think all of these these things focus

[01:39:24] on not only your game but again also how other people interpret

[01:39:28] your game and sell your game to others because we've talked

[01:39:31] to the narrative that that becomes connected and if you have

[01:39:35] someone like Charlie who's recognizing game recognizes game

[01:39:40] right and so he wants everyone else to be very aware of what's

[01:39:43] happening.

[01:39:44] She's not just good in challenges.

[01:39:45] She's good at all of these other things too.

[01:39:47] And so we need to be very mindful of the entire package

[01:39:50] that Maria is presenting and I think that also this goes

[01:39:55] back to you know, Ken who is it that said she had a really

[01:39:59] great backstory was it Kenzie?

[01:40:02] I mean probably all of them but I don't remember who it

[01:40:06] was exactly that said that but yeah, this is why it's beneficial

[01:40:09] to have those conversations.

[01:40:11] Yeah, Kenzie, but she had the best story not backstory just

[01:40:14] story just best story.

[01:40:15] I think yeah, so I'm curious if it's is that just game is

[01:40:18] that her whole existence is it where she is in life?

[01:40:22] And so all of those things you put them all together and

[01:40:25] yeah, I mean Maria was definitely someone who was a huge

[01:40:28] threat to win this game and everyone recognized it which

[01:40:32] is why Liz decided she was going to help in that immunity

[01:40:36] challenge right as everyone knew that she couldn't win that

[01:40:39] final immunity because she was a threat to everyone in that

[01:40:43] final three.

[01:40:43] Yeah, I mean she just her presence like loomed over everyone

[01:40:49] else like a giant, you know, and yes, it is a credit.

[01:40:54] I when the first things I heard was it's such a credit to

[01:40:56] Kenzie social game that Liz helped her win the challenge,

[01:41:00] but I think even more than that.

[01:41:02] It was a credit to them all recognizing what a huge threat

[01:41:05] Maria was because I think if Liz had seen Charlie or Ben

[01:41:10] pulling ahead she'd have done the same thing for them.

[01:41:13] It wasn't about Kenzie winning.

[01:41:15] It was about Maria losing exactly.

[01:41:19] Yes.

[01:41:19] Yes, and how that was a benefit to all of them right because

[01:41:23] they knew that she could not stay in the game because she

[01:41:26] would beat them all in the end, right?

[01:41:27] Right now on the flip side Maria told Q that Charlie is

[01:41:32] so lovable.

[01:41:33] He could beat any of us.

[01:41:34] He gets to final three he wins and she also told us he's

[01:41:39] a threat.

[01:41:40] Of course, even she didn't end up voting for him at the

[01:41:44] end, but that's something we'll discuss later.

[01:41:46] The important thing was that everyone agreed with Charlie

[01:41:51] in terms of Maria being a threat, but they didn't see it

[01:41:54] the way she was saying in reverse.

[01:41:58] Yes, and I think that this is that finding that balance

[01:42:01] right?

[01:42:02] And this is where Charlie was playing a very dangerous game.

[01:42:06] He wanted to make it appear as if Maria was the one doing

[01:42:09] these things and that was potentially to his own detriment

[01:42:12] because he's taking credit away from himself by saying, oh

[01:42:15] this was all Maria doing it because I want you all to focus

[01:42:19] on her and not me but then you're not focusing on me.

[01:42:22] You're not seeing what I'm doing.

[01:42:24] And so it is a very very difficult way to play this game

[01:42:27] trying to manage your own threat level and highlight someone

[01:42:31] else's at the same time, even though you're playing the

[01:42:33] game with that person.

[01:42:35] Yeah.

[01:42:35] Yeah.

[01:42:36] Now as for Kenzie, she came into the merge with a target

[01:42:39] painted on her by Banu as the mastermind mermaid dragon.

[01:42:47] Liz even...

[01:42:48] You need to get one of these things.

[01:42:49] They're great.

[01:42:50] Liz even said she didn't work with Kenzie early because

[01:42:54] of that.

[01:42:54] So she knew she had to lower her threat level right away

[01:42:58] at the merge and since she had options beside just Q and

[01:43:03] Tiffany whom she described as always playing hard, she could

[01:43:08] kind of soften her image and it clearly worked.

[01:43:12] She went from mermaid dragon to somebody who nobody really

[01:43:19] pegged as a big threat to win it all at the end.

[01:43:22] Right, right.

[01:43:23] Yeah, she definitely managed her threat level in a way that

[01:43:27] was very impressive because she did have this persona that

[01:43:32] had been created about her when she walked into the merge,

[01:43:34] but she saw it, recognized it and said, okay, I really need

[01:43:37] to take a step back here and not have people look at me

[01:43:41] in that way anymore.

[01:43:43] So it did really work out.

[01:43:47] It's like what is he doing over there?

[01:43:49] Now I see what you're doing.

[01:43:51] That's a good look.

[01:43:52] I like it.

[01:43:53] That's great.

[01:43:54] I've always wanted a dragon on my shoulder.

[01:43:56] Yes.

[01:43:56] There you go.

[01:43:57] Yes.

[01:43:58] I love it.

[01:43:59] Now we've already mentioned how Ben was kind of stuck at

[01:44:02] the bottom and I think this applied to his threat level

[01:44:04] too. Other players didn't see moves he was making or attributed

[01:44:08] them to different people.

[01:44:09] He wasn't seen as a threat, but unlike Kenzie in his case,

[01:44:13] it turned out to be true.

[01:44:15] Yeah, no, Ben was not.

[01:44:18] I mean, he's a great guy, very likable, fun, I think individual

[01:44:23] but yeah, as far as the game itself, he was not a threat

[01:44:27] in anyone's eyes and I think he recognized that at the end

[01:44:31] too, that he knew he wasn't going to be a threat to win

[01:44:34] this game, but yeah, he saw that himself.

[01:44:37] Yeah, and this brings us to Liz.

[01:44:39] Obviously a lot of what we discussed for Liz's plan in

[01:44:42] rule one was as I mentioned then a strategy to keep her

[01:44:45] threat level lower and as she said it worked until it didn't.

[01:44:50] I know there are many out there who say Liz was never a threat

[01:44:54] and would have been a zero vote finalist.

[01:44:56] But we have to remember what we've been talking about and

[01:44:58] that's the edit of it all.

[01:44:59] Kenzie discussed in many of her interviews that Liz was doing

[01:45:03] much more than we saw.

[01:45:04] Plus, they thought she could win over the jury filled with

[01:45:10] former NAMI tribe mates.

[01:45:13] As she told Dalton Ross, to me and to Charlie and Ben, she

[01:45:17] was the biggest threat.

[01:45:18] She being Kenzie.

[01:45:20] She was the, sorry, Kenzie told Dalton Ross that she was the

[01:45:25] Kenzie told Dalton Ross that she was the biggest threat going

[01:45:28] into final three.

[01:45:30] It might not look that way now, but Liz was playing a good

[01:45:32] game too and I really think she could have sold.

[01:45:35] So Kenzie had confidence in Liz's abilities.

[01:45:39] Yeah, and I thought that it was fascinating because I didn't

[01:45:41] even think about the NAMI part of this until I was reading

[01:45:46] and I saw that and went, oh, well, that's four people then.

[01:45:49] And so if you really, if Liz really did have, you know, a

[01:45:53] good relationship with all of them, and if they were all going

[01:45:57] to lean heavily towards Liz just based upon the NAMI relationship

[01:46:02] and then on top of it you throw in, hey, here's my big grand

[01:46:06] reveal by the way.

[01:46:07] Ah, ha ha.

[01:46:09] I mean, it would have been very fascinating to watch for sure

[01:46:13] to see how that would have all come together because as viewers

[01:46:17] we were all very confused when she said I would have wiped

[01:46:19] the floor with all of you, but I, we don't know.

[01:46:22] We just don't know how that would have affected everyone sitting

[01:46:26] there and would the NAMI have been leaning towards her?

[01:46:29] Would that additional moment send them over the top?

[01:46:35] I don't know, but it would have been, it would have been a fascinating

[01:46:37] thing to watch.

[01:46:38] Right.

[01:46:39] All right.

[01:46:40] Well, we could go to rule seven which covers idols, advantages

[01:46:43] and game mechanics and hallelujah.

[01:46:45] We didn't have to worry about idols.

[01:46:47] But as far as advantages, if we remember all the way back to

[01:46:51] the pre-merge, Maria had an extra vote and she burned it apparently

[01:46:56] unnecessarily by voting twice in when you know by vote count

[01:47:01] that wasn't needed.

[01:47:02] Right.

[01:47:03] Except that the point of doing so was not about the vote count.

[01:47:08] It was about getting rid of something that might put a target

[01:47:11] on her and considering the way the game went post-merge with

[01:47:15] everybody who had an idol getting targeted.

[01:47:17] Yeah, getting rid of your extra vote sure seems like a smart

[01:47:20] move.

[01:47:21] Yeah, I don't disagree.

[01:47:22] I mean, this is one of those things we've seen throughout so

[01:47:25] many seasons now.

[01:47:27] Excuse me, but when you have something and people know that

[01:47:29] you have it, you're better off to just not have it get rid of

[01:47:31] it.

[01:47:32] So yes kudos to her for deciding that and doing that.

[01:47:35] Yeah.

[01:47:36] Now the other topic we need to talk about in this rule is the

[01:47:40] game mechanic of fire making.

[01:47:43] Oh, yeah back in the preview podcast.

[01:47:46] I mentioned that Liz had one of the worst hot takes possible

[01:47:49] as she said she loved Final Four fire making.

[01:47:52] She did and I added it would be ironic if she got knocked out

[01:47:57] that way.

[01:47:58] Yeah, so here we are having watched the irony and of course

[01:48:03] I predicted that outcome back in the why Venus lost podcast

[01:48:07] where I noted that the week prior we saw twice that she

[01:48:10] couldn't get a fire started and twice over the previous two

[01:48:13] weeks.

[01:48:13] We'd seen fire reflected in her glasses much like we saw with

[01:48:16] Carson when people had to do this a reason he would go out

[01:48:19] and fire now.

[01:48:20] I do find it somewhat hard to believe that the editors use

[01:48:22] the same trick again after so many people caught on the first

[01:48:25] time but one I guess they got attached to it and to when I

[01:48:29] think what I think of as so many people and what they think

[01:48:32] of as so many people are probably two very different things.

[01:48:35] Yeah, you know, they do like to repeat stuff.

[01:48:38] Yeah.

[01:48:40] So now an interesting thing about Liz going in fire making

[01:48:44] is that she has said she likes it because a big threat still

[01:48:48] has a chance to make fire and get to the end instead of just

[01:48:51] being voted out.

[01:48:53] Now this sounds good in theory, but like so many other changes

[01:48:56] Jeff has made to the game.

[01:48:58] It just ends up pushing back the vote to get the big breath

[01:49:00] out sooner and we saw yeah, we saw it when they switched from

[01:49:05] a final two to a final three.

[01:49:06] Oh, okay.

[01:49:07] You vote people out one time sooner right then adding

[01:49:10] firemaking and Liz did the exact thing.

[01:49:14] Yeah, she went out of her way as we've already discussed to

[01:49:17] ensure Maria the biggest threat in the game didn't win final

[01:49:21] five immunity so they could knock her out before that point.

[01:49:25] So yeah, Liz likes it because someone like Maria could save

[01:49:29] herself but she made sure Maria couldn't get there.

[01:49:32] Yeah.

[01:49:33] Yeah.

[01:49:34] No, I it is this and I'm not going to kvetch about the

[01:49:38] fire making as much as I normally do because I already have

[01:49:41] but I really do feel like this is one of those situations

[01:49:45] where you are the production is affecting the players ability

[01:49:50] to just play the game.

[01:49:51] I know that the player who wins has to make the decision who's

[01:49:55] going to make fire who they're taking with them.

[01:49:57] And so there's there is still a component of the decision-making

[01:50:00] process for the player.

[01:50:01] However, this game is about social relationships and and what

[01:50:07] we have seen prior to fire making come into play was how significant

[01:50:12] and important those social relationships are in order to get

[01:50:16] to a final two or a final three and you still have a player

[01:50:19] having to make a decision who they're going to take with them

[01:50:22] and those decisions are based on social abilities that the

[01:50:26] relationship they've created the game that they played with

[01:50:29] them whether or not they could beat them in a final two or

[01:50:32] a final three and now it's what can this person make fire and

[01:50:35] that becomes an extra layer and it does take away all of the

[01:50:40] work that has potentially been done by this person to get to

[01:50:44] this point by then adding the fire to it to allow that threat

[01:50:50] a chance to get to the final three even though people would

[01:50:53] might come together and vote them out.

[01:50:56] Otherwise, yeah, and I suppose if we if we look at Liz's logic

[01:51:00] for liking fire making it might well have been that the other

[01:51:04] three could have just voted her out at that point.

[01:51:07] They're forced fire making didn't exist.

[01:51:09] So this did give her a chance, you know from that standpoint,

[01:51:13] we can't say for sure but it seems like at least two of the

[01:51:16] three would have wanted to and I don't think the other one

[01:51:19] would have, you know, pushed it enough to force a tie.

[01:51:21] But right so from that standpoint it gave her a chance.

[01:51:26] It's just you know, still it's fire making and you know, it's

[01:51:32] we don't like it.

[01:51:32] Yeah now continuing with fire making it has been suggested

[01:51:38] that Charlie should have gone to Ben and said put me in fire

[01:51:41] instead of putting Kensington.

[01:51:44] And I disagree with this on multiple levels the most important

[01:51:47] of which is that Charlie already had a very solid strategic

[01:51:50] game.

[01:51:51] It was no reason for him to believe he needed a flashy move

[01:51:55] not to mention fire making should never be considered a flashy

[01:51:58] move anyway, but I digress Charlie even said in the show he

[01:52:03] didn't need or want it.

[01:52:05] He made all these carefully planned moves and it would have

[01:52:08] been devastating to go out in fire.

[01:52:10] If he said put me in coach and something went wrong, you know,

[01:52:15] and finally as Rob said on the postgame show, I don't know

[01:52:19] that it would have changed anything.

[01:52:21] Anyway, would this have really changed anyone's mind like

[01:52:25] who he made fire against, you know, I guess Liz who hasn't

[01:52:32] been able to start a fire the whole game.

[01:52:35] Yeah, and I and I think that this goes back to it shouldn't

[01:52:40] be considered a big game move if you're making fire and if

[01:52:44] Charlie really truly does believe that he has made enough moves

[01:52:47] in the game, right?

[01:52:49] Then that is not going to be a determining factor in anything.

[01:52:52] I mean we we've talked about a very particular circumstance

[01:52:56] and situation where you have to put yourself in fire because

[01:52:59] oh, I don't know you were on some Island elsewhere and came

[01:53:03] back into the game.

[01:53:05] Like, you know, we've we've discussed how it might become

[01:53:08] a necessity there, but overall it shouldn't be a deciding

[01:53:12] factor as far as if you think that you've done enough in

[01:53:16] the game itself.

[01:53:17] It shouldn't come down to a fire, right?

[01:53:20] All right.

[01:53:20] Well, we could go to appendix a which is going to be short

[01:53:23] this time.

[01:53:24] It's about the players keeping their end goals in mind when

[01:53:26] voting and we talked about voting out the weak than the

[01:53:27] strong than the weak than the strong.

[01:53:29] And of course, this is the end game the remaining players

[01:53:32] need to take out the strong and we've spent almost two

[01:53:37] hours talking about how they did, you know first the strongest

[01:53:41] in Maria then Liz and so there really isn't much more to

[01:53:45] talk about in appendix a.

[01:53:47] I agree.

[01:53:48] But there's plenty to talk about in appendix B.

[01:53:51] Yes, there is.

[01:53:52] Like a lot and it's it's the jury phase and final tribal

[01:53:56] council.

[01:53:58] Now Charlie had been thinking about it for a while saying

[01:54:00] at one point a week or two ago, you're thinking about who

[01:54:03] are you putting in the jury?

[01:54:05] Who are you leaving in the game to work with you?

[01:54:07] And at this point in the game, who am I going to sit next

[01:54:09] to at the end and have the jury judge me against everything

[01:54:13] has consequences.

[01:54:15] He was certainly right.

[01:54:17] Ideally, you want to sit next to two people who won't get

[01:54:19] any votes.

[01:54:21] The problem is finding a way to do that.

[01:54:23] He and Kenzie were able to get there with one person who

[01:54:28] fit the bill as we've mentioned that you know, Ben said

[01:54:30] in interviews.

[01:54:31] He came in knowing he couldn't win and just wanted to explain

[01:54:34] his game.

[01:54:36] But then the question was how to get the jury votes against

[01:54:39] the excuse me other person.

[01:54:42] A big part of that is figuring out what the jury wants

[01:54:45] and giving it to them.

[01:54:47] I think the problem here was it was so difficult to tell

[01:54:51] what this jury wanted.

[01:54:53] The game is over.

[01:54:54] I'm still not sure what some of the people on this jury

[01:54:58] wanted.

[01:54:59] Yeah, I mean, I feel like this group in particular was

[01:55:05] full of a lot of very big personalities, which is understandable.

[01:55:09] You're going to be on a TV show.

[01:55:11] I mean other than you know, he's not a big person, right?

[01:55:14] Yeah, that there's a lot of big personality sitting there

[01:55:18] and I am curious if there was a lot of people who were

[01:55:26] not bitter.

[01:55:27] I don't want to call them bitter because I don't think they

[01:55:29] were bitter, but I think a lot of other jurors called some

[01:55:32] of the people some of the jurors bitter and I can understand

[01:55:37] but that term feels a little aggressive.

[01:55:40] I don't like that term either.

[01:55:42] Yeah, but there's something to be said about well, we'll

[01:55:47] get to that.

[01:55:48] We'll get there.

[01:55:49] Yeah, we'll get there.

[01:55:50] But I feel like when someone is sitting in that position,

[01:55:54] they are looking at the other person's game and there is

[01:55:57] something that's happening inside of you going well, but I

[01:56:00] played this game too.

[01:56:01] And and I would love an opportunity to explain what I did

[01:56:05] and I've seen what you've been doing your entire game and

[01:56:08] it can be a little frustrating when there's that competing

[01:56:11] narrative where like, oh, you want to be able to say well,

[01:56:13] this is what I know to be and this is what I've seen and

[01:56:16] then that person over there is trying to tell you no, no,

[01:56:19] this is what it really was and I feel like there was too

[01:56:22] much of the like prove me wrong kind of thing happening and

[01:56:27] I and I don't I don't necessarily appreciate that approach

[01:56:31] just because you you come from different places like you

[01:56:35] you haven't played the whole game together.

[01:56:38] You haven't done everything together as far as the game

[01:56:42] is concerned.

[01:56:43] And so it shouldn't necessarily be like a you need to prove

[01:56:47] it as opposed to let's talk through it and let's go through

[01:56:50] the mechanics of it.

[01:56:52] And so that's what it felt a little more like that.

[01:56:54] It was I don't like the 30-second thing.

[01:56:56] Like don't don't limit how long someone has to justify

[01:57:00] something to you.

[01:57:01] I feel like that's this is a game for a million dollars.

[01:57:04] You want all of the information.

[01:57:06] You don't want to say give it to me in 30 seconds go.

[01:57:09] Yeah, as someone who is an attorney and has done a lot of

[01:57:12] has done summations that have gone over two hours, you know,

[01:57:15] like there are times you need a little bit more opportunity

[01:57:18] and moments and things that need to be said.

[01:57:21] And so I don't think anyone and I again, it's a gate.

[01:57:25] They're the ones running the show, right?

[01:57:26] So it's their final Tribal Council and if that's what they

[01:57:29] want to do.

[01:57:30] I just feel like that's an unfair but again, survivors

[01:57:33] unfair.

[01:57:33] So right, but you know, but it's just one of those things

[01:57:36] that I didn't really love that approach being taken.

[01:57:39] Yeah, and you know, we saw it being used once at the beginning

[01:57:42] and then Jeff using it for the conclusion, but Ben indicated

[01:57:46] in his interviews.

[01:57:47] It applied to other questions throughout.

[01:57:50] It's not clear if it applied to everything but apparently,

[01:57:52] you know, Tiffany was saying time more than more than once

[01:57:57] if you play a complicated game, you can't so easily explain

[01:58:02] it in 30 seconds.

[01:58:03] It really hurts the players.

[01:58:05] I think who had the long-term plans like sure I could say

[01:58:09] I blindsided you.

[01:58:10] Okay, that took less than 30 seconds, but it can hinder a

[01:58:13] player trying to describe a complex game of making small moves

[01:58:17] throughout the entire season to put themselves in the right

[01:58:19] position and I'm glad you used your own example of a summation

[01:58:24] because I was thinking the same thing of you know, when I

[01:58:28] used to testify in cases and no one said to me David.

[01:58:34] Here's a question answer it in 30 seconds or you're done.

[01:58:37] No, these are complex matters and so is someone 26 day game.

[01:58:41] Yeah.

[01:58:42] Yeah, and there are times that that you need to have those

[01:58:46] moments to really get I got to start over here to get over

[01:58:50] here.

[01:58:50] Right?

[01:58:50] So trust me like I'm going to and and the only do it on the

[01:58:54] podcast right?

[01:58:56] And the other thing too that can always happen in a final

[01:58:59] tribal is that someone could ask a question and the player

[01:59:02] could say well, I want to start over here, but there could

[01:59:05] be a discussion where the person who asked the question

[01:59:07] go.

[01:59:07] Well, that's not what I asked you right?

[01:59:09] I'm asking you this and the and it's more of a conversation

[01:59:13] and a narrative that is explained as opposed to if you're

[01:59:17] telling someone you have to disprove something right now

[01:59:21] and you give them 30 seconds to do it how I mean that's so

[01:59:25] limiting that's so limiting because you have to change

[01:59:28] someone's mindset in 30 seconds.

[01:59:31] That's a lot.

[01:59:32] That's a huge ask and that's a lot of pressure.

[01:59:35] And so I just feel like it would have been better if they

[01:59:38] had been just kind of float a little bit more and been more

[01:59:41] of a conversation as opposed to that type of approach.

[01:59:44] Yeah, and this jury questioning was definitely handled different

[01:59:48] from the recent ones we've seen on social media.

[01:59:51] It's been laid out that each player got a question and there

[01:59:54] could also be follow-ups from other people's questions.

[01:59:57] So it was not the open forum like we've seen recently but

[02:00:01] also not as strict as it was in the early days where one

[02:00:05] person gets a question stands up, you know sits down.

[02:00:08] Yes, and I will say that I that was what we ended up doing

[02:00:13] and I didn't love that so much because you it's better to be

[02:00:16] able to like kind of I'd like to I'd like to follow up with

[02:00:19] that person just said right like I have a question about the

[02:00:21] answer that you just gave I like that kind of discussion

[02:00:25] more so than then what we saw on this particular season.

[02:00:31] I do like what they did in some way here because and I suspect

[02:00:36] they did it because there have been people saying over the

[02:00:40] past couple of seasons that like a few personalities dominated

[02:00:44] the conversation and no one else said anything.

[02:00:47] And so this at least gives even though we didn't see them

[02:00:50] all it at least gives every juror a chance to say this is

[02:00:53] my question.

[02:00:55] Yes, and I appreciate that and I so I like the combination

[02:00:59] where it should be.

[02:00:59] Here's my question and then other people can say they can

[02:01:04] respond to it.

[02:01:05] They can respond to the answer right without the clock.

[02:01:10] Now going back to what I was saying before about not

[02:01:13] understanding what a lot of the jurors wanted sometimes we'll

[02:01:18] get a clue out of what used to be the full jury speaks videos

[02:01:22] online, but they turned into mini clips on the show.

[02:01:26] They were not terribly helpful this time some were about

[02:01:30] Ben and well, we talked about how he wasn't going to win.

[02:01:33] So those didn't matter others were too generic and then

[02:01:37] there were those like Venus saying Kenzie was liked by everyone

[02:01:41] but Venus wanted to hear what moves she made quote you have

[02:01:44] to have played the game to earn my vote.

[02:01:47] But then we never get the follow-up of what specifically

[02:01:50] convinced Venus that right that took place.

[02:01:54] We have to kind of guess.

[02:01:55] Okay, what did that mean?

[02:01:59] Now I mentioned that some of the you know, jury speaks were

[02:02:05] about Ben and it didn't really matter and going on top of

[02:02:08] that Ben said in his interviews that and I think I mentioned

[02:02:13] this earlier that some of the jury didn't even give him a

[02:02:15] real opportunity to explain his game, you know, he tried to

[02:02:18] tell them but they weren't willing to listen right and again,

[02:02:21] this is a real risk when it comes to waiting until final

[02:02:24] Tribal Council to explain everything and it could have been

[02:02:26] a problem for Liz if her plan had worked.

[02:02:30] Unfortunately, since we know it came down to a choice of

[02:02:33] Kenzie or Charlie.

[02:02:35] We're going to spend the rest of our time in this appendix

[02:02:38] talking about those two as well.

[02:02:40] So sorry to pour salt on the wound there Ben.

[02:02:44] Sorry Ben.

[02:02:46] We still like you we do and Rolling Stone tweeted it did

[02:02:50] like Rolling Stone do an article.

[02:02:51] Oh, yeah, there was a huge article.

[02:02:52] So like a huge article on listen Ben you're living your best

[02:02:55] life. Okay, you were in Rolling Stone like he's a winner either

[02:02:59] way. Yeah.

[02:03:00] Yeah, that's like and I'm like Ben's dream.

[02:03:03] So yes, and he loved the poster t-shirt, you know, he told

[02:03:07] me that so now getting into the actual questions.

[02:03:16] I did not like the one Tiffany opened with asking them to

[02:03:19] articulate one move that they made on their own that changed

[02:03:22] the course of the game because as we've talked about a good

[02:03:25] survivor game is made up of small moves every day often by

[02:03:28] working with other people right and this question plays into

[02:03:31] the whole big moves idea and you know, those who tried to

[02:03:35] make big moves ended up asking the questions instead of

[02:03:39] answering them.

[02:03:40] So that should tell you all you need to know right there.

[02:03:44] Well, and this is why I feel like the the structure in which

[02:03:48] the jury was even created speaks volumes right because all

[02:03:53] of the threats were taking each other out in an order and

[02:03:57] then put themselves all in the jury.

[02:03:59] And this is why you know, Charlie was so good at laying out

[02:04:03] the order in which people need to be sent to the jury.

[02:04:06] So those threats continue to shield him so he can make it

[02:04:10] to the final three.

[02:04:11] And so people lost sight of the group that ended up making

[02:04:15] it to the final four because they were so focused on I have

[02:04:19] to take out my I have to take out my number one because they're

[02:04:22] more of a threat than I am.

[02:04:23] And so again, it comes down to those like those big personality

[02:04:27] sitting on that jury all thinking I should be sitting in that

[02:04:29] seat and I should be in the final three because I was playing

[02:04:32] a great game and I got taken out because I was a threat and

[02:04:35] that's probably all very true in their minds.

[02:04:38] But this is survivor and you have to get to the final three

[02:04:42] and I think it was interesting in one of the interviews.

[02:04:46] I think Venus was the one when she was asked who in the jury

[02:04:50] do you think would have won and she's like none of us that's

[02:04:52] why we're on the jury.

[02:04:53] Yeah, so like so I like that acknowledgement that like, you

[02:04:56] know what it trust me.

[02:04:58] It sucks when you're you're sitting in that jury because you're

[02:05:01] like gosh, I really would have loved to win this game, but

[02:05:04] you need to shift your focus and it needs to be on the people

[02:05:07] sitting there as opposed to you feeling something about yourself

[02:05:11] and your own game and then it affecting the ability to ask

[02:05:14] a question to the people sitting there right now as the jury

[02:05:18] moved through the other questions and answers.

[02:05:20] I thought Charlie did a good job explaining how people wanted

[02:05:23] Q out but a big part of his game was using Q and Maria Shields

[02:05:27] keeping them around till the time was right.

[02:05:29] Meanwhile, I also liked how Kenzie used Q's arguing on the jury

[02:05:33] as a point in her favor by talking about look, this is what

[02:05:36] I had to deal with.

[02:05:38] He doesn't remember what he says to me.

[02:05:40] Yeah, you know she had to play in a way that he thought it

[02:05:44] was his idea and whisper into his ear last to make it happen,

[02:05:49] which is funny because it actually goes back to something

[02:05:51] I said last week on why Q lost.

[02:05:54] I think a lot of his issue was that he often didn't have

[02:05:57] conversations.

[02:05:58] He seemed to give instructions intentional or not.

[02:06:00] That's how he came across and it sometimes felt like whoever

[02:06:04] talked to him last sent him in a different direction.

[02:06:07] Mm-hmm.

[02:06:08] She knew she had to be the one that talked to him last.

[02:06:11] Yeah.

[02:06:12] Now in terms of their overall points, it seemed pretty clear

[02:06:17] that Charlie was scoring in all the strategic areas and Kenzie

[02:06:22] got points in the social aspects.

[02:06:24] Charlie said before final tribal council that he had the

[02:06:28] strategic elements to win.

[02:06:29] He built alliances constantly.

[02:06:31] He never closed a door to anyone and he always made sure

[02:06:34] he was in a position where he was safe but also had power.

[02:06:38] But a lot of what he did was in the shadows.

[02:06:40] So he wanted to pull back the curtain on what he'd done.

[02:06:44] I do think he did that at least enough for three jurors.

[02:06:48] Kenzie even said on Jeff's podcast that Charlie killed it.

[02:06:52] But this is where we get to some sticky issues.

[02:06:55] Mm-hmm.

[02:06:57] First, I want to say there has been a lot of focus on Maria's

[02:07:02] vote because she was his number one through the whole game

[02:07:04] and had previously promised to vote for him.

[02:07:07] But remember, she was only one of five jurors who voted

[02:07:10] for Kenzie.

[02:07:12] Now, it's pretty obvious why Tiffany voted for Kenzie, but

[02:07:16] we don't really know the reasons why Tevin or Venus voted

[02:07:20] that way.

[02:07:21] We know Tevin was going back and forth like right up till

[02:07:24] the last second.

[02:07:26] Mm-hmm.

[02:07:26] Either of them could have changed the outcome too.

[02:07:30] But we do know why Maria and Q voted the way they did.

[02:07:35] At least the reasons they gave, which is about all we can

[02:07:38] go on and trying to analyze the things going on around it.

[02:07:43] And those things become more difficult now because, look,

[02:07:48] I want to make it clear.

[02:07:48] I like Maria and as Charlie himself has said both in the

[02:07:52] reunion and on social media and in interviews, nobody should

[02:07:56] be attacking Maria personally or directing hate at her.

[02:08:00] Like she posted something on Instagram, like people are

[02:08:03] calling her, emailing her work, that sort of stuff.

[02:08:06] Like stop it people.

[02:08:07] Geez.

[02:08:08] Don't.

[02:08:09] Don't do that.

[02:08:11] But we have a job to do in terms of determining why Kenzie

[02:08:15] won, why Charlie lost, and her vote is a key factor in that

[02:08:19] analysis.

[02:08:20] Yeah.

[02:08:22] Maria gave her reason for changing her mind as being that

[02:08:26] she saw a spark in Kenzie during firemaking and then saw

[02:08:29] herself in Kenzie, especially after her answer to Q's question

[02:08:34] and all of this meant her heart outweighed her head in the

[02:08:36] decision.

[02:08:38] Now, I'm not going to argue with Maria's feelings.

[02:08:40] You can't argue with someone's feelings.

[02:08:43] But probably everyone listening knows my thoughts on using

[02:08:46] firemaking as a criteria.

[02:08:48] Yeah, we don't love that.

[02:08:50] Yeah, in case you don't already, it should not be a reason

[02:08:54] to vote or not vote for someone.

[02:08:56] And also it sounds like it took them a long time.

[02:08:59] A real long time.

[02:09:00] Yeah.

[02:09:02] Now based on how Maria worded it, I guess we could say it

[02:09:05] wasn't the firemaking itself, but Maria saw something in

[02:09:08] how Kenzie handled the situation.

[02:09:11] That's splitting hairs a bit, you know, plus Omer tweeted

[02:09:16] out that the jury should not care about firemaking and Liz

[02:09:21] replied each jury is different and this one cares a lot about

[02:09:25] it.

[02:09:25] I mean, not me, but you know them.

[02:09:29] So clearly some other people in that jury did care about

[02:09:35] fire.

[02:09:35] And I, oh, I'm sorry.

[02:09:38] I know I've already complained about it, but like that it's

[02:09:42] you're on Survivor.

[02:09:43] Guess what?

[02:09:43] You're going to be doing.

[02:09:44] You're going to be making fire in like trying to survive

[02:09:47] and live.

[02:09:48] And if you don't plan for that going out there, well, then

[02:09:51] you're not you're not prepping well enough to go out and

[02:09:55] do it.

[02:09:55] And so I just it should not come down to that.

[02:09:59] It just shouldn't but I'm already said that.

[02:10:02] So I'm just going to.

[02:10:02] Right.

[02:10:03] Out wit, outlast, or outwit, outplay, outlast, not outfire.

[02:10:08] Right.

[02:10:10] So there's really no good way to evaluate Maria's answer

[02:10:16] as it stands.

[02:10:18] The problem, further problem, is that I'm not sure it really

[02:10:22] stands that way for a few reasons.

[02:10:24] First, and some of this goes into some things that you've

[02:10:27] said to.

[02:10:29] Omer had a great point on the post-finale podcast with Rob

[02:10:32] on Thursday saying when a player is blindsided, it basically

[02:10:35] throws into question everything they thought they knew.

[02:10:37] So their brain has to accept responsibility or their brain

[02:10:40] has to re-evaluate and it can go in one of two directions.

[02:10:43] They can accept responsibility or they can put it on other

[02:10:46] people.

[02:10:48] I think this is mostly a subconscious thing and a person

[02:10:52] would have to make a specific effort to step back and recognize

[02:10:57] who is really to blame or credit.

[02:10:59] And it's difficult for someone to kind of step outside themselves

[02:11:02] to more objectively evaluate.

[02:11:05] And the truth is most people don't do that even in regular

[02:11:07] life, let alone on Survivor.

[02:11:11] Like I remember when someone got a job that by all rights,

[02:11:19] everyone believed should have been mine.

[02:11:21] Okay.

[02:11:22] I was like the only one known to be the person to get this

[02:11:26] promotion, but then someone came in from outside the agency.

[02:11:33] And was I mad at the person doing the hiring?

[02:11:37] Yes.

[02:11:38] Was I mad at the person who got the job?

[02:11:40] No, and I went out to lunch with him before he actually came

[02:11:45] to start to work there to give him some tips about because

[02:11:48] I still worked in that area and I was going to be working

[02:11:50] under him.

[02:11:51] And he was surprised.

[02:11:53] He was like, I thought you'd be pissed at me.

[02:11:56] I said, why would I be pissed at you?

[02:11:57] You were just applying for a job, right?

[02:12:00] You know, but it still stands a lot of people and I'm not

[02:12:04] trying to pat myself on the back for this or anything, but

[02:12:07] a lot of people would have been pissed at him in that situation

[02:12:10] and he was surprised that I not I was not because I stepped

[02:12:14] back looked at the situation and said, well, he's not to blame.

[02:12:18] But a lot of people focus their anger on whoever the closest

[02:12:22] target is and you know, so did that happen here?

[02:12:28] Could this have been going on inside Maria's head without

[02:12:32] her even realizing it possibly?

[02:12:34] Yeah, it could have we don't know.

[02:12:36] Hmm.

[02:12:37] Yeah, beyond that Rob has mentioned and we've discussed

[02:12:41] previously and you mentioned just a little while ago.

[02:12:43] Some jurors don't like it when you claim credit for what

[02:12:46] they consider to be their moves.

[02:12:49] Yeah, and so like you said, I have to wonder if Charlie

[02:12:53] standing up for his own game while it was something he needed

[02:12:56] to do also hurt him with Maria.

[02:12:59] Well, and I just want to say as far as this decision, I think

[02:13:05] what Maria has done is also discredited herself and the

[02:13:11] herself and the game.

[02:13:12] She was playing by not voting for Charlie because what she

[02:13:16] could have done is she could have said Charlie, I know exactly

[02:13:22] everything that you're talking about and I know exactly the

[02:13:24] game that you played because we were playing this game together

[02:13:28] and by your winning you are crediting the game that I played

[02:13:33] you are going to be the representation of why Maria could

[02:13:38] have won this game and Maria got voted out because she was

[02:13:42] the biggest threat and because she wasn't sitting in the final

[02:13:45] three her second ends up winning right?

[02:13:49] And so the narrative that could have been attached to Maria

[02:13:52] is credit for the game.

[02:13:54] She played right?

[02:13:56] And so you can utilize that person who is sitting there as

[02:14:01] confirmation for yourself.

[02:14:04] Like I had been sitting there if I'm saying if Maria had

[02:14:07] been sitting there Maria could feel like I'm going to win but

[02:14:11] she's not sitting there.

[02:14:12] And so Charlie is and so I'm going to credit the game that

[02:14:16] I was playing by giving him a million dollars.

[02:14:18] And so you end up you end up minimizing what you've done

[02:14:22] in the game by rewarding someone who you didn't play the

[02:14:26] same game with you didn't play the same game like and you

[02:14:30] credited two very strange things where you saw some fire in

[02:14:35] their eye and you felt like wow, the what they want to do

[02:14:39] with the money is great.

[02:14:41] I mean, what about the game?

[02:14:43] You know that you feel so proud of playing where Maria understands

[02:14:48] that she even said in her exit press.

[02:14:50] I could have beat anyone.

[02:14:51] I didn't care who I was sitting next to because I know what

[02:14:53] kind of game I played.

[02:14:55] Well, then why did you not vote for Charlie?

[02:14:57] Right if you if you yourself are like I would have beat anyone

[02:15:02] I would have won.

[02:15:04] Well, what let's talk about Charlie then, you know, let's

[02:15:07] talk about why you didn't vote for Charlie because you're

[02:15:09] now just minimizing your own game.

[02:15:12] Yeah, and that's why I think you know, I really think a lot

[02:15:14] of it is subconscious.

[02:15:15] I don't think she saw thought through everything that you

[02:15:18] just mentioned, you know, everything that you said are it's

[02:15:21] on point, but I don't think she thought about it that way,

[02:15:27] you know, like as an example, Charlie answered Venus's question

[02:15:31] about flipping a mistake into his favor by talking about

[02:15:33] how first Q chastised him for admitted that admitting that

[02:15:36] he voted Venus and then Charlie played good student and got

[02:15:40] invited into the six by by Q.

[02:15:43] But then Maria on the jury spoke up.

[02:15:45] It was like, you know making it clear.

[02:15:47] No, I was the one who invited you into the six.

[02:15:50] I did it.

[02:15:50] Yeah.

[02:15:51] Yeah, and I think that was an early indication that she wanted

[02:15:55] to be seen as being responsible for things that he was saying

[02:15:58] he did.

[02:16:00] Yeah, and I think that this is something that we've seen some

[02:16:04] people on the final three do very well where they give credit

[02:16:08] to the people who are sitting in the jury and that's always

[02:16:11] a great thing to do because you make that person feel validated.

[02:16:14] And so in that moment, it might have been beneficial for Charlie

[02:16:18] to remind Maria like Maria you and I were playing this game

[02:16:22] together.

[02:16:22] I needed to differentiate myself from you because we were

[02:16:25] playing this game.

[02:16:25] So close Maria if you were sitting here, you'd be

[02:16:29] winning this game because if you do that, then you tell the

[02:16:32] jurors Maria and I were playing the same game.

[02:16:35] She would have been remind them all we voted her out because

[02:16:38] she was the biggest threat because if she's sitting here,

[02:16:40] she's winning.

[02:16:41] So if Maria and I played the same game and Maria is winning

[02:16:44] sitting here, then I'm winning sitting here, right?

[02:16:46] Right.

[02:16:47] Yeah, absolutely.

[02:16:50] Now another thing that may have been going on in the background

[02:16:53] was that soda posted an Instagram story saying there was

[02:16:56] strong lobbying for Kenzie going on at Ponderosa.

[02:17:00] Someone asked Liz on Twitter if Maria was the one trying to

[02:17:03] turn people against Charlie and Liz said that is not true

[02:17:06] from my experience.

[02:17:09] So it wasn't Maria apparently doing the lobbying which I wouldn't

[02:17:14] have expected her to like I said, I think a lot of it was

[02:17:17] sub subconscious but presuming that lobbying, you know was

[02:17:22] indeed occurring.

[02:17:23] I don't think soda was lying about that.

[02:17:27] It's quite possible that that also got into Maria's head

[02:17:30] as well.

[02:17:32] And it is possible and this is one of those things we've

[02:17:34] discussed too and and how Ponderosa can affect people's

[02:17:39] view of the game and view of the players because whenever

[02:17:43] someone gets voted out and they go into Ponderosa, the first

[02:17:46] thing they start doing is they're being peppered with questions

[02:17:49] by people who are already there like oh what's happening and

[02:17:52] what's going on and and then you end up getting their version

[02:17:56] of the story which you then have to compare and contrast

[02:17:59] to other versions that you've heard and things and this is

[02:18:02] why if there was lobbying going on you've got Tiffany who's

[02:18:06] there who's Kenzie's number one, right?

[02:18:09] Which is why Charlie was probably hoping well, I've got Maria

[02:18:13] there. So Maria would be my number one.

[02:18:15] Yes, right.

[02:18:16] That's my number one.

[02:18:17] And so she'll be lobbying for me.

[02:18:18] And if you don't have someone who is going to say but wait,

[02:18:23] what about this and oh wait, what about that in response

[02:18:27] to somebody lobbying for a Kenzie then you are definitely

[02:18:32] going to be in a difficult position walking in there when

[02:18:35] you when they've already got these ideas built up in their

[02:18:37] head because someone else is telling them a version of this

[02:18:41] person's game and no one is coming to anyone else's defense.

[02:18:45] So I feel like that's that's a sad thing to have to fight

[02:18:49] against because the final three don't know that that's going

[02:18:52] on. They have no idea what what stories have been said about

[02:18:55] them in Ponderosa.

[02:18:56] Yeah.

[02:18:58] Now, there's one more thing we have to discuss about all I

[02:19:02] mean, there's a couple more things but about Maria's vote

[02:19:05] and it's the hardest part because there's still confusion

[02:19:07] about Maria's reasons.

[02:19:09] Yes, she gave answers at the time and then again in interviews,

[02:19:13] but Charlie said in his interviews and to my knowledge,

[02:19:16] she has not disputed this some of the interviewers asked

[02:19:19] her and she kind of just said I want to work it out with

[02:19:23] Charlie type of thing which is you know good of her to say

[02:19:26] it that way.

[02:19:28] But you know what Charlie said was the answer she gave directly

[02:19:31] to him have changed over the time since filming which was

[02:19:34] almost a year ago.

[02:19:36] He said a couple days before the end, you know the finale

[02:19:41] Maria sent him before the finale aired obviously Maria sent

[02:19:45] him a text of different things.

[02:19:46] She intended to say in interviews, which he said was inconsistent

[02:19:49] with everything else.

[02:19:50] He'd heard from her and others to that point.

[02:19:53] Plus he said at one point she told him she regretted her

[02:19:56] vote and then she said that no she didn't.

[02:19:59] He said she should just stick to the reason she gave it the

[02:20:02] finale and that does seem to be what she did whether because

[02:20:06] you know, he said that or not, but we're left with a big

[02:20:10] question mark.

[02:20:11] Yeah, because usually we would say that well generally if

[02:20:16] a juror is mad at you, you should have done something different.

[02:20:21] But there are exceptions and I really feel like this is one

[02:20:24] of them because I have no idea what Charlie could have done

[02:20:27] to earn her vote.

[02:20:28] Neither does he you know, he told Jeff in the reunion for

[02:20:32] her part as I mentioned in the intro to the rules earlier.

[02:20:36] Maria said in interviews that it wasn't about why Charlie

[02:20:41] lost but about why Kenzie won which in other words means he

[02:20:45] didn't do anything wrong and there was literally nothing

[02:20:49] he could have done differently to hold on to her promised

[02:20:51] vote.

[02:20:52] Yeah, I don't it doesn't make any sense to me.

[02:20:56] It really doesn't and and I and I understand the struggle,

[02:21:01] you know head versus heart kind of thing.

[02:21:03] I know that that is something that you struggle with when

[02:21:07] you're playing this game and you know, I hate to keep talking

[02:21:10] about myself, but it's the only thing I really can do because

[02:21:12] I've experienced this when you're looking at people in a

[02:21:15] final tribal and yeah, you know, there was a player who

[02:21:19] had to choose to make their own vote right and I had to pick.

[02:21:23] Yes, and I had to pick between two people who I was very

[02:21:26] close with in the game that I had a great relationship with

[02:21:29] both but one who was a more strategic player and one that

[02:21:34] was more tugging on my heartstrings.

[02:21:36] And so you definitely have to look at well, who do I want

[02:21:40] to credit right winning this game?

[02:21:43] Like what's going to what wins this game?

[02:21:45] Is it someone who you can feel for or is it someone who

[02:21:48] you can say that's a strategic player who has earned the

[02:21:53] right to win this game based upon the gameplay.

[02:21:56] And so in my worldview, that's the person who gets my vote

[02:22:00] and I again you can base it on whatever you want to base

[02:22:03] it on and we've talked about people based on who do they

[02:22:06] like more and that you know can be something that you can

[02:22:09] waffle with and determine as well.

[02:22:11] But I really do think that in Maria's world those reasons

[02:22:16] that she gave it ends up discrediting the game that she played

[02:22:21] and so you so you can't expect people to look at you and

[02:22:25] say well Maria would have won if she'd been sitting there

[02:22:28] if Maria herself didn't even.

[02:22:31] Right gives the winning vote to the person that she played

[02:22:33] the game.

[02:22:34] Yeah, and what you just said takes us to Q's question when

[02:22:38] it comes to you know basing your decision because he said

[02:22:42] he based his vote entirely on the answers to his single

[02:22:46] question and Maria also you mentioned it earlier referenced

[02:22:50] it as the key in my opinion.

[02:22:53] It is one of the worst questions that can be asked at Final

[02:22:56] Tribal Council because it's completely about what happens

[02:22:59] outside the game.

[02:23:02] In Jeff's introduction to Final Tribal Council.

[02:23:04] He mentioned that the jury awards the money based on who

[02:23:07] they think played the best game note that he didn't say

[02:23:10] it was based on who would make the best use of the money

[02:23:12] or who had the best backstory.

[02:23:15] And yes, obviously those things could be used by players

[02:23:18] within the game.

[02:23:19] If if in the game you want to try to make your case.

[02:23:23] I really need the money.

[02:23:24] I have a good bat whatever then fine do it in the game.

[02:23:29] But I simply don't think it should be part of the consideration

[02:23:33] for a winning vote.

[02:23:36] You know, don't get me wrong and you've said this already

[02:23:39] but I want to as well as a juror.

[02:23:41] He can of course make his decision.

[02:23:43] However, he wants he could flip a damn coin.

[02:23:46] But as a commentator I can say that's a terrible way to do

[02:23:51] it and I am and I and and listen and I'll agree with that

[02:23:56] as as a player as someone who's actually been involved in

[02:24:00] this process one of the again just to go back to the experience

[02:24:04] that I've had people thought that our decision to vote Adam

[02:24:09] was also based on his personal story with his mother and

[02:24:14] what was going on and that though that all we heard that

[02:24:18] and we all felt that that wasn't why we decided that Adam

[02:24:21] needed to win that game.

[02:24:22] Right?

[02:24:23] We all based it on his strategic gameplay comparatively

[02:24:29] to the people who he was sitting next to that's what we did.

[02:24:31] And these were the conversations that we had at Ponderosa

[02:24:35] and this is what we were discussing is how does their game

[02:24:39] match up with each other and how they were in the game and

[02:24:41] and who played the best game and while that story can tug

[02:24:46] on your heartstrings and can make you feel a certain way

[02:24:49] that wasn't what it was based on and how you're going to spend

[02:24:52] the money.

[02:24:54] People could say whatever they want when they're sitting

[02:24:56] there, right?

[02:24:57] And yeah, that could change later and and unfortunately,

[02:25:01] you don't know if what the person is telling you is true.

[02:25:04] You don't know if what the person is saying is how they're

[02:25:06] actually going to spend the money.

[02:25:08] Whereas you can actually say well, I watched the game that

[02:25:12] you played.

[02:25:12] I was here.

[02:25:13] I experienced it.

[02:25:14] We've all talked about it.

[02:25:16] So you can fact check that and you can determine whether

[02:25:19] or not what they're telling you is true and you can look

[02:25:21] back for examples and well, you're saying this but tell us

[02:25:24] give us an example.

[02:25:25] Whereas someone just going well, this is how I'm going to

[02:25:28] spend the money and that's what you're basing your decision

[02:25:30] on it doesn't it doesn't jive with the whole point of what

[02:25:35] survivor is again.

[02:25:36] We've already said it outwit outplay outlast not outspend

[02:25:39] out save out, you know, I mean like that's not what it's

[02:25:43] at a million dollars.

[02:25:44] There's a lot of things you can do with it.

[02:25:46] And I'm glad that Kenzie wants to be selfish good for her.

[02:25:49] That's great.

[02:25:50] Yeah, but that should not be the decision what is yeah,

[02:25:53] I loved her answer.

[02:25:54] It's the same thing I did in life.

[02:25:56] It's the same thing.

[02:25:56] I taught my own kids invest now so you can set yourself

[02:26:00] up for the future.

[02:26:01] Yeah, but that doesn't mean I think people should have

[02:26:04] voted for her to win the game of survivor because of that

[02:26:08] answer.

[02:26:08] Yeah, you know Maria in the reunion said Kenzie deserves

[02:26:13] to have this money to start her life to start her family.

[02:26:16] And this is part of the problem with using things outside

[02:26:19] the game to influence who wins first like you just said

[02:26:22] who knows if it's true.

[02:26:23] I mean, I think it is with Kenzie.

[02:26:25] I you know, she's sure, you know, she's not going to Vegas

[02:26:28] and betting it all on red but but who is someone on the

[02:26:35] jury to say whose life is more important when it comes

[02:26:38] to getting the money based on knowing them for a month

[02:26:41] and one or two answers in final Tribal Council.

[02:26:44] Why is the struggling musician not as important right?

[02:26:48] Why is the guy who wants to go to law school because

[02:26:50] they didn't know he already was there.

[02:26:52] Why why is that not as important?

[02:26:55] I wouldn't want to have to make a decision based on

[02:26:58] that responsibility, right?

[02:27:00] That's why it should be based on the game that you see

[02:27:02] this person playing and and how you interacted with that

[02:27:07] person during the game and how you feel about that person

[02:27:11] based upon the relationship that you've created with

[02:27:13] them not something that is outside of the game that

[02:27:16] has no direct effect on the game itself.

[02:27:20] I just don't think that that should be where the decision

[02:27:23] comes from and on top of it.

[02:27:25] It highlights even more that there was nothing Charlie

[02:27:28] could do to counter Kenzie's life story.

[02:27:33] Oh, yeah when he had no idea how Q or Maria would react

[02:27:36] to what they said, you know if Maria saying well Kenzie

[02:27:40] reminds me of myself at that age and that's why I'm

[02:27:42] doing it.

[02:27:42] Well, Charlie can't change himself into a younger version

[02:27:46] of Maria.

[02:27:47] No, you could just play the game in front of him, you

[02:27:50] know, well and I actually I don't want to cut you off

[02:27:53] but somebody I'm just thinking of a tweet that I saw

[02:27:55] where someone actually was commenting on if it's going

[02:27:58] to be based upon who needs the money more than why do

[02:28:00] we even have a game at all?

[02:28:01] Well, that was dr.

[02:28:02] Jeremy Faust who was my next step because he was our

[02:28:06] guest earlier and he said on Twitter.

[02:28:09] My question is whether you could decide the winner on

[02:28:12] day one.

[02:28:13] If so, what role does the game itself play?

[02:28:16] And yeah, that's a good question.

[02:28:17] If if two of the jurors and possibly more, you know, but

[02:28:22] however many of the jurors are just going to vote for

[02:28:24] someone based on their backstory.

[02:28:26] Why play the game?

[02:28:27] Are you playing just to figure out who the final three

[02:28:30] are so you can pick the best story from them?

[02:28:33] I you know, and again, let me make it clear.

[02:28:36] I love Kenzie.

[02:28:37] Yeah, I played a great game, but I still disagree with

[02:28:41] the stated reasons for you know, those two of her jury

[02:28:45] votes.

[02:28:45] Yes, and I would say the same sentiment like I think

[02:28:49] Kenzie's great.

[02:28:50] I understand why people did vote for her based upon her

[02:28:53] social gameplay and the relationships that she had

[02:28:56] created but that wasn't what either of these people gave

[02:28:59] us their reasons for voting for her.

[02:29:01] They didn't say well, I loved her answer to how she was

[02:29:03] going to spend the money and also she and I created this

[02:29:06] great bond and relationship and that was part of her

[02:29:09] strategy.

[02:29:09] It was solely like I liked her answer for how she's going

[02:29:14] to spend the money and also she reminded me of myself.

[02:29:16] Yeah, so you're not you're not giving the game related

[02:29:21] reasons for why you voted for her at all, right?

[02:29:24] Right.

[02:29:25] All right with all of this said and even having those

[02:29:28] questions linger.

[02:29:29] I still have other thoughts about final Tribal Council

[02:29:32] people were like, oh he's going to move to the conclusion.

[02:29:34] No, not yet.

[02:29:36] Almost you were worried about three hours.

[02:29:38] You said this to me so way back in episode two Charlie

[02:29:43] said strategy wise he knew he'd be good but a weakness

[02:29:46] could be social game.

[02:29:48] Now we already talked about those things but this is

[02:29:50] where I was saying a couple times.

[02:29:52] I don't know something's going to come up in appendix

[02:29:53] B as I was watching.

[02:29:58] I just didn't feel like Charlie connected as well to the

[02:30:01] jury in the moment.

[02:30:03] Yeah, I agree, you know, and he said in interview he was

[02:30:06] basically trying to stay calm and in my opinion, he may

[02:30:10] have overdone it.

[02:30:11] I think he controlled his emotions in front of the jury

[02:30:13] so well that even when he was making emotional statements

[02:30:17] they didn't seem that way.

[02:30:18] So like Hunter said something to him like oh your goal

[02:30:22] was just to get to final three not to win and he told

[02:30:25] Hunter in about this tone.

[02:30:27] You better believe it.

[02:30:29] My goal was to win this freaking game.

[02:30:32] It wasn't an oomph behind those words.

[02:30:35] If that had been me I'd have been like hey, you better

[02:30:38] believe that I was here to win.

[02:30:40] Yeah, my goal was to win this freaking game.

[02:30:42] Mm-hmm.

[02:30:43] I would like to think that didn't matter but it's possible

[02:30:48] you mentioned earlier that some people described him as

[02:30:51] a little robotic and while we didn't think that was true

[02:30:53] through most of the game.

[02:30:54] I do think a little of that came out in this final Tribal

[02:30:57] Council.

[02:30:58] I think he over controlled himself.

[02:31:01] Yeah, I agree and I do think that this is one of those

[02:31:05] situations where life experiences really do come into

[02:31:10] play and things that you've been through can allow you

[02:31:14] to be a better storyteller at this point in the game.

[02:31:19] And those are the people who throughout the game can

[02:31:22] become the scariest ones to sit next to because like

[02:31:25] a Tevin sitting in the final tribal and the way that

[02:31:29] he's able to just put together a narration of anything.

[02:31:34] I mean, it's just incredible.

[02:31:36] So I think someone like Charlie just doesn't have it whipped

[02:31:39] out the phone book and starts reading it.

[02:31:40] The jury's like yes, you win.

[02:31:42] That's what I'm saying.

[02:31:43] Like Tevin just has this ability to make it interesting

[02:31:47] and I think someone was talking about I don't remember

[02:31:50] who all was involved but there was a checkers match at

[02:31:52] Ponderosa that they then started like narrate it.

[02:31:56] Yeah narrating right announcing like sports.

[02:31:59] Yes.

[02:31:59] Yes.

[02:32:00] So like I would have loved to have seen that because I'm

[02:32:02] Sure that it was very very fascinating and just the language

[02:32:06] that was being used and so there's an art to that and granted

[02:32:11] they're 26 days in their exhausted.

[02:32:13] Yeah, their brains are a little foggy.

[02:32:14] They're not working as great as they want to but Charlie

[02:32:18] did say that he purposefully was trying to maintain his

[02:32:23] emotions and not get emotional where I think when you're

[02:32:27] in the final tribal Council, you need to just throw it

[02:32:30] all at the wall at that point and not and not keep it contained

[02:32:34] because they want to see someone.

[02:32:36] I don't know that's got fire in their eyes, right?

[02:32:38] Like maybe that's going to be maybe that's going to be the

[02:32:41] deciding factor.

[02:32:42] So, you know, I do think that Charlie if he has had if he

[02:32:47] had had a little more like experience, he might have known

[02:32:50] enough to really like put that part of him aside and just

[02:32:55] be the Charlie that we saw occasionally come out on the

[02:32:57] island when he was dancing and when he was like doing those

[02:33:00] fun things one-on-one with Ben that he had described.

[02:33:03] That's what the jury probably needed to see in that moment

[02:33:05] too. But again, you just don't know that because you're trying

[02:33:08] to manage all of these things at the same time remember everything

[02:33:11] that you did but he's being very analytical about it and

[02:33:15] sometimes the analytical side can overshadow the emotional

[02:33:19] component that you need to provide in that moment.

[02:33:22] Yeah.

[02:33:23] Yeah.

[02:33:23] I thought he explained things very well, but he was already

[02:33:26] fighting an uphill battle and you know, he did convince three

[02:33:29] people to vote for him because of his strategic gameplay.

[02:33:32] I just you know, I wonder if there were some who simply weren't

[02:33:36] ready to accept it.

[02:33:38] We talked earlier about some players who had lower opinions

[02:33:41] of his strategy and coming in and we also talked about some

[02:33:46] jurors who weren't willing to listen to certain things that

[02:33:48] might contradict what they believe they knew if there was an

[02:33:52] overlap of just one juror consciously or subconsciously that

[02:33:58] could have been the difference.

[02:33:59] Yeah, this was such a I mean such a close vote.

[02:34:02] Yeah.

[02:34:03] Now meanwhile, I think Kenzie avoided some of these problems

[02:34:06] for a couple reasons one she noted that her social game was

[02:34:10] her strategic game and when you put it that way and this goes

[02:34:13] back to what we were discussing, you know, 15 minutes ago or

[02:34:17] so.

[02:34:19] You can't really be seen as taking away from anyone else's

[02:34:22] gameplay because while Maria can say no that wasn't your move

[02:34:26] that was my move.

[02:34:28] Nobody can say no.

[02:34:29] I was the one who was nice to people and made real relationships

[02:34:32] to you with them.

[02:34:34] That was my move, right?

[02:34:36] You know, no one can claim being nice.

[02:34:38] Yeah.

[02:34:39] I was the only one who was nice, you know, right?

[02:34:42] Yeah, and that's especially true in a situation like we had here

[02:34:45] where as you know, we discussed way back in the first rule and

[02:34:49] Alliance of four came together and nobody could specifically

[02:34:52] say I was the one who did that right?

[02:34:56] Yeah.

[02:34:57] Yeah, and I so I do think that there is a big difference there

[02:35:00] for what Kenzie had to speak through as opposed to what Charlie

[02:35:04] had to speak through and I think that when you are talking about

[02:35:09] Social strategic game.

[02:35:11] It is more individualized and it is more one-on-one and you don't

[02:35:17] have to fight against someone else who's going to try to claim

[02:35:21] this move because it's not considered a big move.

[02:35:24] And you know, so I do I do feel like yes, that's a very great

[02:35:28] point to make in the difference and how they could present

[02:35:31] themselves to the jury because yeah, no one can take that away

[02:35:35] from Kenzie because those were individualized experiences

[02:35:38] that they all had with her.

[02:35:39] Yeah.

[02:35:40] Now Rob mentioned another plus for Kenzie on his Thursday

[02:35:44] podcast with Omer which was Tiffany getting taken out without

[02:35:49] Kenzie's knowledge and we've mentioned this a little bit, but

[02:35:53] I would go further.

[02:35:54] I would say this was especially good that Kenzie wasn't the

[02:35:58] one who made the move because it goes back to what you were

[02:36:02] saying a little while ago.

[02:36:03] She still had Tiffany advocating for her in the jury.

[02:36:06] Yes.

[02:36:07] If she had been like so many of the other number ones and

[02:36:09] actually taken Tiffany out.

[02:36:10] I'm not sure that would have happened.

[02:36:13] And you know, if what we saw in final Tribal Council was any

[02:36:17] indication plus what we heard in some interviews about Tiffany

[02:36:21] being so charismatic.

[02:36:24] It seems like she was one of the most important voices in

[02:36:27] the room.

[02:36:28] Yes, I would wholeheartedly agree with that for sure.

[02:36:31] Okay.

[02:36:33] All right.

[02:36:33] So now it is time to wrap things up.

[02:36:37] So what are your final thoughts on Kenzie and the others in

[02:36:42] the final five?

[02:36:43] Well, I'm probably going to go quick because I'm sure you

[02:36:45] have a whole lot of things to say and I always love your

[02:36:48] final words, but overall I just want to thank this entire

[02:36:52] cast not just the final five but all of you for putting

[02:36:56] forth a great season.

[02:36:57] It was really quite entertaining and opening yourselves

[02:37:02] up like this is a difficult thing to do.

[02:37:04] I know I've been there and I know that you've been through

[02:37:06] some stuff online can always be scary.

[02:37:10] Hang in there know that you have a great support system

[02:37:13] with other people who have been through it and understand

[02:37:15] it. So just thank you so much for providing us the entertainment

[02:37:19] that you did as far as the final individuals who were in

[02:37:24] this game.

[02:37:25] I just want to say, you know, Maria and Liz even though you

[02:37:29] didn't make it to the final three.

[02:37:31] It would have been amazing to see you both sitting there

[02:37:33] and putting forth your arguments because I do think you

[02:37:36] both would have had very interesting and incredible things

[02:37:39] to say for very different reasons.

[02:37:42] We've talked about all of them.

[02:37:43] And so I think it would have been really great to see you

[02:37:46] both fighting those battles.

[02:37:48] You're both incredible women.

[02:37:49] You're very strong and I respect you both and I have a lot

[02:37:52] of just you're impressive.

[02:37:54] You're both very impressive.

[02:37:56] I don't necessarily agree with everything you've all done,

[02:37:58] but that doesn't mean that I can't be impressed with you

[02:38:01] as you know, the people that you are and your willingness

[02:38:04] to put yourselves out there.

[02:38:05] So thank you for that.

[02:38:06] To Ben keep shredding.

[02:38:10] I think you're great.

[02:38:11] And I think that you're definitely going to take that Rolling

[02:38:15] Stone article and I hope you put it into a big frame and

[02:38:18] you hang that on your wall because that's a great achievement

[02:38:20] for you.

[02:38:20] And also I wish you had had more of an opportunity to explain

[02:38:23] your game and I'm sure that you'll have more opportunities

[02:38:27] to do so.

[02:38:27] So thank you so much for shredding through this season 46

[02:38:31] with us.

[02:38:33] To Charlie, I think you played a hell of a game.

[02:38:36] I think you did an awesome job.

[02:38:38] I really really hope that your law career takes off and

[02:38:42] you do great things.

[02:38:43] I think you will.

[02:38:44] You're going to be a great storyteller because you've been

[02:38:46] in a situation where you've learned how difficult juries

[02:38:50] can be.

[02:38:52] I think the experience that you will take from that is

[02:38:55] going to bring you leaps and bounds beyond Survivor.

[02:38:59] So great job, and I really enjoyed watching you as well.

[02:39:03] Kenzie, congrats on winning and good luck with the family

[02:39:08] the new baby that's due in September.

[02:39:10] You've got a lot of things happening all at once.

[02:39:12] You've won Survivor.

[02:39:13] You got married.

[02:39:15] You're having a baby.

[02:39:16] That's a lot but I do hope that you take some time and

[02:39:19] just really enjoy it.

[02:39:19] It sounds like you're going to thank you for entertaining

[02:39:22] us as well.

[02:39:23] All of you just are a great group of people.

[02:39:25] I know I've said a lot of things about why I think you

[02:39:27] all lost and versus winning but I'm going to let David Bloomberg

[02:39:31] wrap it all up because he always does such a great job,

[02:39:33] but I just want to thank you again for allowing us the opportunity

[02:39:36] to speak about all of you putting yourselves out there allowing

[02:39:39] us to do so.

[02:39:40] So thank you so much.

[02:39:41] It was a pleasure and a joy and David Bloomberg take it away.

[02:39:47] Well, we've had a lot to say over the last two and a half

[02:39:49] hours about these final five players and it's hard to distill

[02:39:53] everything down.

[02:39:55] But there have been a few factors woven into much of the discussion.

[02:39:59] A lot of the strategy of the finalists was hidden from the

[02:40:01] jurors mostly on purpose.

[02:40:04] That means the jury came into final Tribal Council with some

[02:40:06] preconceived ideas that were based on what they did know or

[02:40:09] thought they knew and one thing that was clear to everyone was

[02:40:13] Kenzie's social game and exuberance as every player felt like

[02:40:17] she was their close friend and most had worked with her at one

[02:40:20] point or another.

[02:40:22] In her pregame interview, Kenzie said everything I've ever wanted

[02:40:25] in life.

[02:40:26] I've succeeded.

[02:40:28] Now this made me worry for her in the game because obviously

[02:40:32] everything doesn't go your way on Survivor.

[02:40:34] But one thing Kenzie showed was that it's not about immediate

[02:40:38] success.

[02:40:38] It's about resilience.

[02:40:40] We saw that in her early Yanu days when nobody had any success

[02:40:45] there, but she pushed through it.

[02:40:47] Then she knew she had to change up her game at the merge and

[02:40:51] when she hit possibly the biggest bump in the road with the

[02:40:53] Tiffany blindside, she found a way to turn that to her advantage.

[02:40:57] She was not the most purely strategic in terms of planning

[02:41:00] out moves, but she was at the heart of the group who controlled

[02:41:04] the later part of the game and was able to explain enough of

[02:41:07] the moves she did make.

[02:41:08] Not to mention that her personal bonds made at least two jurors

[02:41:12] just really want to reward her for who she was and what she

[02:41:15] could be.

[02:41:17] Charlie was certainly no slouch in the social department

[02:41:20] either. And as we discussed, he was a pretty clear number one

[02:41:24] when it came to purely strategic moves to the point that he

[02:41:27] flipped three jurors in his favor pretty much on that point

[02:41:30] alone. But he faced two issues in that regard. One, it's clear

[02:41:34] that whether I like it or you like it or anyone else likes it,

[02:41:38] not every juror is going to vote for specifically those reasons,

[02:41:42] even if they've been talking about building a resume and

[02:41:44] claiming moves all season long.

[02:41:47] And two, he only had a relatively short time to convince jurors

[02:41:51] of all his moves when they came in believing he had just been

[02:41:54] Maria's intern. And that's always an uphill battle. As I mentioned

[02:42:00] earlier, Ben came into final tribal council knowing he wasn't

[02:42:03] going to win. Beforehand, he told us his game was a game of

[02:42:06] honesty built around being himself and playing his social cards.

[02:42:10] But he also wanted to show he played a hard game from day one

[02:42:13] despite people thinking he was just vibes and chilling.

[02:42:18] Now, I like Ben a lot. I do have to question his statement about

[02:42:21] playing hard from day one based on what we saw and heard from

[02:42:24] others. Maybe he was in his own mind, but what he showed others

[02:42:28] was someone who didn't want to get involved in strategy discussions

[02:42:31] until they were absolutely necessary. And that turned off some

[02:42:34] other players like Maria. Even when he later worked with the Goat

[02:42:38] Alliance and Q, he just wasn't given credit for gaming. If Charlie

[02:42:43] had an uphill battle to explain his game, Ben had a cliff to

[02:42:47] scale with no equipment. Liz lost in the most appropriate and

[02:42:52] ironic way at the same time. She championed fire making as a

[02:42:57] game aspect, but couldn't overcome it within her own game. But

[02:43:00] it served the purpose that she's given for supporting the concept

[02:43:03] that otherwise she probably would have just been voted out anyway

[02:43:06] for being more of a threat in at least two of the other three's

[02:43:08] minds. And of course, speaking of getting rid of threats, there

[02:43:12] was Maria, who was so much of a threat that other players focused

[02:43:15] all their attention on getting her out. With good reason. If she

[02:43:19] had made it to the end, I really do think she would have won easily.

[02:43:23] But threat level is probably the most difficult aspect of the game

[02:43:27] as Maria and Charlie showed together. He heaped all the credit

[02:43:31] and blame on to put a target on her, but it also hurt his own

[02:43:35] chances later. In the end, it came down to a difference of essentially

[02:43:40] one vote because we know from interviews that Ben would have

[02:43:42] broken the tie in Charlie's favor. We went through those votes

[02:43:46] in detail. I was not there. I haven't lived through either the

[02:43:50] lives or the game that Q and Maria have. But I believe I personally

[02:43:55] would have voted based on the things I regularly advocate for

[02:43:59] the most. Objective strategy, and certainly not things outside

[02:44:03] the game. Mackenzie was essentially able to bring those aspects

[02:44:08] of her life into the game because of her personality and her

[02:44:12] relationships. She truly put the social in social game. I may

[02:44:17] disagree with some of the stated reasons given by a couple of jurors

[02:44:20] for their votes, but I want to again make it crystal clear that

[02:44:23] I love Kenzie and she did a great job and is a deserving winner.

[02:44:27] And that is why Kenzie won and Charlie, Ben, Liz, and Maria lost.

[02:44:33] There we are.

[02:44:38] And we don't have to do predictions. We don't have to do predictions,

[02:44:41] but we do have to do a few more things. So people should not leave just yet.

[02:44:43] I know, but like, oh my God, that's amazing.

[02:44:46] Yes. I love this feeling.

[02:44:48] So I want to remind everyone first of all that the rules we just

[02:44:51] discussed are available in poster form and poster on a t-shirt form

[02:44:58] and checklist on a t-shirt form.

[02:45:00] So again, go to robhezawebsite.com slash yxlostfeed and order away.

[02:45:07] Be prepared for next season.

[02:45:09] Yes, that's right.

[02:45:10] Be prepared for next season because there is a season 47, Louis.

[02:45:15] Yes, there is.

[02:45:17] And you know, also remember if you want a, you know, since the

[02:45:20] Mermaid Dragon just won, if you want one, go to Etsy and look

[02:45:26] up Crazy Girl Art Design.

[02:45:29] But beyond that, you know, since we're going to be off people's

[02:45:34] screens for a little while, especially you.

[02:45:37] Yes, we will be.

[02:45:38] How can people get a hold of us?

[02:45:39] Will be.

[02:45:40] So I'll still have my Twitter account, JessicaLouis89.

[02:45:45] Unlike Kenzie, I'm not deleting it.

[02:45:47] Yeah, but I do have to say I love that about Kenzie.

[02:45:51] Kenzie's like, people asked her, are you going to play again?

[02:45:54] She's like, nah, I'm good.

[02:45:55] I had the highs, the lows.

[02:45:57] I won.

[02:45:58] I deleted Twitter.

[02:45:59] I'm good.

[02:45:59] Bye.

[02:46:00] Yeah, like bye.

[02:46:01] Peace out.

[02:46:01] It's been great.

[02:46:02] So yes, great for her to do that.

[02:46:06] I will be maintaining my Twitter account.

[02:46:07] I may be a little silent for a bit.

[02:46:09] I've got a very, very busy summer coming up with a lot of

[02:46:13] work related activities.

[02:46:16] But so I'm at JessicaLouis89.

[02:46:18] I'm also at JessicaLouis6789 on Instagram.

[02:46:22] But David Bloomberg, who is a social media guru, is going to

[02:46:27] maintain his presence, I'm sure, with lots of TikToks and

[02:46:31] lots of posts on all of his social media platforms, which

[02:46:34] if you are watching this podcast, you can see he's just

[02:46:37] put up his Linktree.

[02:46:39] I always say it wrong.

[02:46:42] But it has all of his various locations you can find him.

[02:46:45] So where can they find you?

[02:46:47] So it's at Linktree slash David Bloomberg with a dot before

[02:46:50] the EE in Linktree on in that URL.

[02:46:54] Or you can find me directly.

[02:46:56] I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky as at David Bloomberg.

[02:46:59] I'm on Threads as at David Bloomberg TV.

[02:47:01] And that's also the name you could find me on for TikTok,

[02:47:05] YouTube and Instagram.

[02:47:07] I've still been posting two or three videos a day.

[02:47:11] Right now, I will of course finish off posting clips from

[02:47:14] the Survivor finale.

[02:47:17] There's other shows that have been ongoing or recently started

[02:47:20] like The Goat, which has Wendell in it, and Race to Survive

[02:47:26] New Zealand, and whatever else comes our way.

[02:47:30] I know there's a few other shows on the horizon here.

[02:47:33] Plus, once I run out of Survivor 46 clips, I'll be going

[02:47:37] back in time to post some flashbacks to earlier seasons.

[02:47:41] And so as a matter of fact, I've had in my drafts since

[02:47:46] before this season, some people who were referred to in

[02:47:49] this season.

[02:47:50] So that's kind of funny too.

[02:47:51] Oh, okay.

[02:47:52] Very nice.

[02:47:53] Yeah, like that.

[02:47:56] So yeah, you know, follow me in all those different places.

[02:48:00] Also, I want to make sure to encourage people to check out

[02:48:04] the RHAP patron program at robhezwebsite.com slash patron.

[02:48:08] You know, even though Survivor is over, there will still be

[02:48:11] plenty of special podcasts put out just for patrons.

[02:48:15] There's even a special t-shirt just for patrons.

[02:48:19] Plus Facebook groups, Discord.

[02:48:22] So, you know, support shows like ours and everything on the

[02:48:25] network by becoming a patron at robhezwebsite.com slash patron.

[02:48:29] And of course, make sure you're prepared for anything that

[02:48:33] comes your way by subscribing to Reality TV RHAP Ups.

[02:48:37] Go to robhezwebsite.com slash rhapupsfeed, select your podcast

[02:48:41] service of choice and get everything, you know, that comes

[02:48:45] your way for all the different hosts that aren't named Rob

[02:48:49] Sesternino.

[02:48:50] And so yeah, it's just filled with all sorts of different

[02:48:54] shows and everything that could be possibly interesting to

[02:48:57] you.

[02:48:59] Yes, and thank you to everyone at Rob Hezab Podcast for all

[02:49:03] of the incredible work that you do.

[02:49:05] Rob, you've been such a great just creator of all of the

[02:49:10] greatness that this has become.

[02:49:11] So thank you for that.

[02:49:12] Thank you to Scott St.

[02:49:13] Pierre for all of the editing and his team that they all do

[02:49:16] not only for the Why Blank Loss podcast, but all of the

[02:49:19] podcasts and all of the content that is included on the

[02:49:22] RHAP feeds.

[02:49:24] So thank you so much for everything that you all do.

[02:49:26] We really appreciate it.

[02:49:27] Thank you to Will from America for the theme song that was

[02:49:29] created and thank you to all of the listeners because this

[02:49:34] is it for us for season 46.

[02:49:38] So I really appreciate everyone who takes time out every

[02:49:40] week to listen to us, especially this one which is almost

[02:49:44] three hours here at this point.

[02:49:46] Thank you so much for sitting through that with us.

[02:49:48] We truly, truly love to have you all returning every week

[02:49:52] and thank you David Bloomberg for allowing me to join you

[02:49:55] yet again on another podcast.

[02:49:58] And I guess I have to, you know, wait to do a podcast with

[02:50:01] you for a bit.

[02:50:03] Probably we surprise people.

[02:50:05] I don't know.

[02:50:06] Yes.

[02:50:07] Thank you Jessica for another great season.

[02:50:09] This has been a lot of fun.

[02:50:11] You get a summer break now.

[02:50:13] I will be back in a couple months with Why Blank Lost for

[02:50:17] Big Brother with Ovi Kabir, of course.

[02:50:20] And people will see me sooner as part of a larger RHAP

[02:50:24] Survivor project.

[02:50:27] And so you'll have to wait.

[02:50:29] It may not be too long that you have to wait.

[02:50:30] We'll have to see.

[02:50:32] But of course as we discussed, you know, you can find me

[02:50:36] online anytime by any of those places that we mentioned.

[02:50:41] But until we're on your screens or in your earbuds again,

[02:50:47] bye everyone and thanks.

[02:50:48] Bye.

[02:50:49] Thank you.