In this episode, Mike and Sasha welcome Survivor 45's J. Maya on to discuss escapism through reading, her thoughts on adaptations, and the great American epic.[00:00:15] Hi, everybody, and welcome back to TV for Real, where reality and scripted TV collide.
[00:00:21] My name is Mike Bloom.
[00:00:22] I am joined as always by Sasha Joseph.
[00:00:24] Sasha, how you doing?
[00:00:26] So, so excited today.
[00:00:28] I can't wait.
[00:00:29] Listen, it's not my Achilles heel to love this person.
[00:00:32] So I'm so ready.
[00:00:34] I'm so ready for this one.
[00:00:36] Absolutely.
[00:00:37] We've hit maybe the golden age of TV for real as we're about to hear a lot of stories
[00:00:44] today.
[00:00:45] And we've got our library card as we are joined by the one, the only from Survivor 45, J.
[00:00:50] Maya.
[00:00:52] What an honor to be here.
[00:00:54] I am such a fan of both of you.
[00:00:56] And the research is impeccable.
[00:00:59] You got deep into the discography.
[00:01:01] Oh, I'm honored.
[00:01:02] I'm honored.
[00:01:04] Oh my goodness.
[00:01:05] Well, yeah, I mean, what's so interesting is that obviously this is a podcast that gets
[00:01:09] into pop culture, into media.
[00:01:11] And like, you have said that your genre is nerd pop.
[00:01:15] And so I would imagine that you are someone who has taken in so much of these pop culture.
[00:01:20] And I think maybe differently than a lot of the people that we've talked to on here has
[00:01:24] also kind of digested it and regurgitated it in a manner of speaking into this beautiful
[00:01:29] music.
[00:01:29] I love the word regurgitation because that is 100% what the music is.
[00:01:35] It is just my formative childhood experiences with media being regurgitated into a microphone
[00:01:41] and then being presented to the world for consumption.
[00:01:45] Um, because a hundred percent, I feel like I, I will, and we'll get into all of this, but
[00:01:52] media was my Achilles heel growing up.
[00:01:55] I was like super nerdy.
[00:01:57] I didn't have a ton of friends.
[00:01:58] And that just like formed the perfect breeding ground for like obsessions with escapist fiction
[00:02:05] and like music.
[00:02:07] I'm just like throwing myself head first into all of it.
[00:02:10] Um, and so I love it.
[00:02:11] And I've like kept that love through my whole life, which is why I'm just ecstatic to be
[00:02:16] talking about it with you guys today.
[00:02:19] Oh, this, this feels really exciting.
[00:02:21] Yeah.
[00:02:21] We're, we're ready to go on this journey with you and you know, talk, yeah.
[00:02:26] Talk us through this a little bit where, you know, what, what were you into growing up?
[00:02:32] You know, what, what were you watching?
[00:02:34] Was there anything like comfort show related?
[00:02:36] You know, tell us, tell us everything.
[00:02:38] Absolutely.
[00:02:39] First thing I'm going to say is journeys tend to not end great for me, but I feel like
[00:02:44] today.
[00:02:45] We're all, we're all sharing things much like an amulet or a sandwich.
[00:02:49] Exactly.
[00:02:50] And if the three of us come across the sign that says take an amulet or take the sandwich,
[00:02:55] we're leaving not hungry because we're going to be taking the sandwich.
[00:02:59] We're going to be eating today.
[00:03:00] No matter what.
[00:03:03] Yeah, no, it's a wonderful question.
[00:03:06] Um, so basically like, like I mentioned, I grew up, I was super nerdy just the, oh my
[00:03:12] gosh, I wish I could show you pictures of what I looked like from that age.
[00:03:16] Like I just did not understand so much about like how to present yourself as a normal person
[00:03:21] to the world.
[00:03:23] I was like, okay, this is, this is actually kind of, I don't know how much I talk about
[00:03:26] this.
[00:03:27] My, my mom was so worried about like my social development growing up that she, she would
[00:03:33] try to bribe me with ice cream to like talk to the other kids in my class.
[00:03:37] She would be like, if you have one conversation today with somebody, like I will take you to
[00:03:42] ice cream after school.
[00:03:43] She was trying so hard.
[00:03:45] Obviously things have like shifted in my life.
[00:03:48] And now I feel like funnily enough, I'm more of an extrovert than anything.
[00:03:51] But at that time, my head was just always in a book.
[00:03:55] I was escaping into fiction.
[00:03:56] I was escaping mostly honestly into reading because, um, I grew up, my parents kind of
[00:04:02] didn't want my sister and I to be super exposed to like Western media beyond what was on the
[00:04:09] Disney channel.
[00:04:10] So I grew up actually reading, uh, watching a lot of Bollywood films and shows and, uh,
[00:04:17] and then watching whatever was on the Disney channel.
[00:04:19] So as a result, I very much imprinted on like the Disney channel.
[00:04:24] So I was like watching wizards of Waverly plays, um, the Hannah Montana, uh, Victoria,
[00:04:32] like this was my, to me, this was what Western media was.
[00:04:36] I was like, this is the pinnacle of television.
[00:04:39] Why, why isn't the Emmys recognizing these shows?
[00:04:42] You know, like are they not recognizing iCarly?
[00:04:46] I got exactly to me.
[00:04:47] I currently deserved a golden globe and I couldn't understand how television got better than
[00:04:51] that.
[00:04:52] Um, and honestly, beyond that, it was just books for me.
[00:04:54] I was like reading voraciously.
[00:04:56] And I think, um, that like desire and hunger for long form storytelling is like very much
[00:05:03] influenced how my media tastes have shifted as I've grown up because so much of my formative
[00:05:09] experience was just reading.
[00:05:11] Um, and I was reading anything that was young adult fantasy, you know, whimsical, just anything,
[00:05:18] anything you could get dystopian.
[00:05:20] Like I loved the hunger games, divergent maze runner.
[00:05:24] Um, obviously the Percy Jackson series.
[00:05:26] Um, just yeah.
[00:05:28] Anything in that realm, no pun intended.
[00:05:30] I was, I was all in on.
[00:05:32] Well, yeah, it's interesting that you say like you mentioned whimsical and then you said
[00:05:36] dystopian.
[00:05:36] Cause yeah, that's the thing with like young adult fiction is that especially nowadays,
[00:05:40] it really has run the gamut where I think a lot of the days of your have been typified
[00:05:46] as like, Oh yeah, these are like little larks that are not the best written, but you know,
[00:05:51] they're fun too.
[00:05:53] Oh my God, this is like dark, depressing, real shit.
[00:05:57] So it seems like you got a full scope and that escapism meant a real breath to you that
[00:06:03] it wasn't just, I'm only going to pursue like stuff that takes me away into this beautiful,
[00:06:08] imaginative flights.
[00:06:09] Like, no, I want to go into this post-apocalyptic world.
[00:06:13] That's so, I think that's so accurate because I think that's so like representative of as
[00:06:19] a young person, this irony, like, I feel like after a certain age, you spend all of your
[00:06:23] time feeling like you want to be a kid again, but then when you're a kid, all you want to
[00:06:29] do is feel grown up and like you're delving in and understanding real issues.
[00:06:33] And I think smart YA authors understand that desire for their audience.
[00:06:37] And so they like balance their stories with this, like, like you said, like really gritty
[00:06:42] realism.
[00:06:43] So I actually feel, and I have this like belief about the hunger games that it is one of the,
[00:06:48] I think it's one of the greatest pieces of fiction to like come out of the last hundred
[00:06:52] years.
[00:06:53] Um, and like not YA fiction.
[00:06:56] It is the greatest piece of fiction.
[00:06:58] It is so to me, I haven't found a series that better, like that is a better foil or mirror
[00:07:04] to society and, and the way that, um, specifically like war plays out in, in this era.
[00:07:13] Um, and I just, I think it's so, there's so many, there's so many layers to it.
[00:07:17] It's so profound.
[00:07:18] And what I've always really appreciated about authors like Suzanne Collins is that they don't
[00:07:22] play down to their audience.
[00:07:23] They treat their audience.
[00:07:24] Like they're the smart, you know, the, the smart readers that they are.
[00:07:28] And I think that's why that series has been so successful.
[00:07:32] And it obviously spawned this like entire genre, like divergent maze runner, all of these
[00:07:37] books that we're trying to like tackle these big issues in ways that felt digestible for kids.
[00:07:42] Um, so yeah, I definitely like became obsessed with that as a kid.
[00:07:45] And I thought that you're, you're so right.
[00:07:47] Like, I thought that I was like the most sophisticated reader on the planet.
[00:07:51] I was like Harvard university.
[00:07:53] I'm knocking down your door.
[00:07:55] Like I'm reading Suzanne Collins.
[00:07:57] You know what I mean?
[00:07:58] And you did knock down Harvard store.
[00:08:01] And then you probably close.
[00:08:03] You're like, no, let me put this door up.
[00:08:04] I'm good.
[00:08:05] Sorry.
[00:08:05] I banged it down.
[00:08:07] Exactly.
[00:08:07] I was lightly tapping on it and then sorry, sorry, sorry.
[00:08:11] Wrong number, wrong number.
[00:08:13] You're just like, I could.
[00:08:15] So I did, but I actually don't want to.
[00:08:18] Never in my life have I ever knocked down a door figuratively or literally.
[00:08:24] It's always been a very polite asking to like go through the gate.
[00:08:30] So let me ask them because as long as like these things have been popular, there's also
[00:08:34] been adaptations of it.
[00:08:36] Yeah.
[00:08:36] Are you somebody who is like able to compartmentalize and separate the, the work that you fell in
[00:08:43] love with from like what you're seeing on the screen?
[00:08:45] Or do you always walk into these types of films with like the book was better?
[00:08:50] Is that just a mood you typically fall into?
[00:08:53] I have a shirt that says the book was better that I've had since I was literally 13 or 14
[00:08:58] years old.
[00:08:59] I'm not even kidding.
[00:08:59] I would wear it to school.
[00:09:00] It, I was so snobby as a kid and I'm going to give myself grace for this, but I, for
[00:09:07] me, the book was everything like specifically.
[00:09:11] So Percy Jackson was my greatest obsession until I was like 17, 18.
[00:09:15] It was depressing how late that obsession.
[00:09:17] And to this day it is like, I reread it every year.
[00:09:21] It is every thought series means the world to me.
[00:09:24] Um, and I remember there's the, I have these like vivid memories of, um, two, two events
[00:09:30] when I was growing up.
[00:09:31] The first is the first time that Rick Riordan came to San Francisco, which is where I grew
[00:09:36] up.
[00:09:36] I begged my parents to let me attend the book tour and I went with my, my friends.
[00:09:43] I got totally dressed up in costume and I got to hear him read from the series and it
[00:09:50] was so meaningful to me.
[00:09:51] And I think that's one of the moments where it just like really cemented how much like writing
[00:09:57] meant to me over other forms of media.
[00:09:59] Um, because I just, I will always remember that specific experience of hearing him read
[00:10:04] from the book.
[00:10:04] It felt so real.
[00:10:06] It felt so meaningful.
[00:10:08] Um, and then juxtapose against when the Percy Jackson movie came out and I walked in
[00:10:13] and I literally walked out of the theater after 30 minutes, because to me, I couldn't accept
[00:10:19] that this was the adaptation of the book that I had read.
[00:10:22] Percy Jackson fans will tell you the movie is horrible.
[00:10:24] It is, it has no, they cast the teenagers as like 18 year olds.
[00:10:30] Like, you know what, what is her name?
[00:10:32] Alexandria.
[00:10:33] Yeah.
[00:10:34] Most beautiful woman on the planet had no business playing 13 year old nerdy Anabas.
[00:10:39] It was like, just so many kids.
[00:10:42] And she did a great job.
[00:10:43] Like I love her as an actress, but it was just for the kids that went into the theater.
[00:10:48] It was such a mismatch.
[00:10:49] Like what we were expecting that it was actually like I and I'm so dramatic, but like it was,
[00:10:53] it made me so sad and I just rejected it.
[00:10:56] And I was like, this is not part of the world that I feel for myself.
[00:11:00] Um, and a lot of kids did too.
[00:11:02] And Rick Riordan famously hated it and like went very openly on talk shows and stuff and
[00:11:08] was like, I hate the movie.
[00:11:09] Now there's an adaptation.
[00:11:11] Right.
[00:11:11] On TV.
[00:11:12] Plus that he is like in the home for, which is why it's so much better.
[00:11:17] It's so much more authentic to the books, but long story short.
[00:11:21] No, I was like book all the way.
[00:11:24] The exception, however, was divergent because I had the biggest crush on the guy who played
[00:11:30] four.
[00:11:31] Oh yeah.
[00:11:32] Yeah.
[00:11:34] James.
[00:11:35] I loved him so much.
[00:11:37] I used to like watch the clip of him talking about his tattoos on like repeat when I was
[00:11:42] like 14 or 15.
[00:11:43] I would just like press the button over and over and over again.
[00:11:47] So your best girl is what you're saying.
[00:11:51] Yes.
[00:11:53] What about you Sasha?
[00:11:54] Are you someone that like tries to separate the adaptation from the original work or is
[00:11:58] that impossible to do?
[00:12:00] Um, yes.
[00:12:01] No, it really depends on how the adaptation is done.
[00:12:05] I don't know how you, how y'all feel, but right.
[00:12:08] Like Lord of the Rings.
[00:12:09] Right.
[00:12:09] I, I, I read it all.
[00:12:11] Um, and I talked about this last time that I'm rewatching it.
[00:12:14] Um, this last two weeks and, uh, two towers, right?
[00:12:18] I'm sorry.
[00:12:18] Vibes only definitely not close to the book and, or like a little bit close.
[00:12:24] And then the drama that comes with all of that, but, but it's still well made, you know,
[00:12:29] the movie, like, it's still like an exciting movie.
[00:12:31] So that works.
[00:12:33] But then I think about Bridgerton and, uh, Kate and Anthony story and how the book was
[00:12:40] just so much smarter.
[00:12:42] Um, which sure folks can have their own issues, but, but it just felt like, okay.
[00:12:47] And Anthony were just smarter in the books and they are here.
[00:12:50] Um, so yeah, I just, I really feel like it depends on how it's presented to us.
[00:12:54] I don't know.
[00:12:55] What about you, Mike?
[00:12:56] Yeah.
[00:12:56] I mean, I think for me, I've done a better job as the years have gone on of like really
[00:13:01] taking the word adaptation, literally of like, this is one person looking at something
[00:13:08] and being like, this is the way I want to do it.
[00:13:11] Uh, and so maybe you do get instances like the Percy Jackson series.
[00:13:15] And I'm glad that this has become a better thing of like actually bringing the creators
[00:13:19] in to be like, okay, we want to do this.
[00:13:22] Like, let us know about your vision because otherwise it really does become like for me,
[00:13:28] it's less so about adaptations of books, but more so like adaptations of stage musicals,
[00:13:33] big theater person.
[00:13:34] I was just talking on a podcast this week about, uh, the Disney version of into the woods,
[00:13:38] uh, which is my favorite musical.
[00:13:40] And so it's tough for me.
[00:13:41] Cause like on the one hand, obviously a lot of, a lot of things will not play on stage the
[00:13:47] way they do on film.
[00:13:48] On the other hand, stage in and of itself is a medium of adaptation where you are going
[00:13:53] to different directors, different performers are going to mount it in very different ways.
[00:13:58] And it's going to look very different.
[00:14:00] So like, just because it's on a different medium, why should I, you know, uh, discern
[00:14:05] things from it more than just watching a different version of it?
[00:14:08] Much like reading a book.
[00:14:09] Like if someone else reads the book and has a different opinion about it, that's their quite
[00:14:13] literal adaptation of it.
[00:14:16] I love that take specifically what you were saying about taking the word adaptation quite
[00:14:21] literally.
[00:14:22] Um, and it reminds me a lot of the discourse in the classics community about translators
[00:14:26] and what the role of a translator should be when it comes to ancient languages.
[00:14:31] And there's been this movement in the last like 20 or so years where the art of translation
[00:14:37] has become more and more of an art form in and of itself.
[00:14:40] And translators are given a lot more room to be creative.
[00:14:43] Um, and there's like a really wonderful translator named Emily Wilson, who, uh, just recently
[00:14:50] translated versions of the Odyssey and the Iliad.
[00:14:53] And her translations are being held up by scholars as like literal, just poet it's poetry in and
[00:14:58] of itself.
[00:14:59] Wow.
[00:15:00] And to me, I think when somebody who's going into their adaptation takes that mindset of like,
[00:15:06] exactly like you said, like I'm, it's not realism, it's modernism.
[00:15:09] It's not, I'm trying to a hundred percent show, you know, take this adaptation and bring it
[00:15:14] to life.
[00:15:16] They understand that that's not ever really going to happen unless you are the creator,
[00:15:20] right?
[00:15:20] Unless it was your original vision all along.
[00:15:22] So they're going to take some creative liberties, poetic license, if you will, with
[00:15:26] what, how they're bringing it to life.
[00:15:28] Like, I think I respect adaptations and enjoy them so much more when I feel like that's
[00:15:33] being, that's happened.
[00:15:34] You know what I mean?
[00:15:34] Yeah.
[00:15:35] When it feels like there is like love and attention and clear care for the source material
[00:15:40] being put in, as opposed to like, well, this thing sold a lot of books.
[00:15:44] So we're just going to kind of put a veneer on it and put it on film.
[00:15:48] A hundred percent.
[00:15:49] And also like, um, they're that there's this straddling between love and clear and attention
[00:15:55] for the book.
[00:15:55] And also like they're intentionally putting their own spin on it because they understand
[00:16:01] that they're never going to bring it to life the way that everyone wants it to be brought
[00:16:05] to life.
[00:16:06] Like you said, with the stage adaptation, there's like, it, it's just inherently different because
[00:16:11] it's always going to be different.
[00:16:12] And the creator understands that and then treats that as the art form.
[00:16:15] How can I make this now its own separate piece of art that is inspired and has these important
[00:16:21] roots from the original piece, but becomes its own thing in the process.
[00:16:25] Um, yeah.
[00:16:26] From an adaptation perspective, are you usually when bringing a book over to the screen, are
[00:16:32] you usually a TV series above a book person?
[00:16:35] Because I think that a large argument that a lot of people have made maybe up until like
[00:16:39] five years ago when really like we have just been busting all over with TV shows is like,
[00:16:43] well, when it's a movie, they cut more stuff out.
[00:16:46] And so with a TV show, you're able to stretch it out.
[00:16:49] Is that always the case in your opinion?
[00:16:51] I love TV shows.
[00:16:53] I think that's part of the reason I really fell in love with, um, survivor honestly, is
[00:16:58] because of the story and the, like how enjoyable it is to see us to see episode after episode,
[00:17:05] how the story continues to play out that, um, suspense that happens like when this episode
[00:17:11] ends and you're like, what's going to happen in the next episode?
[00:17:13] To me, that is so much more representative of what like chapters are doing and like the
[00:17:18] chasing of a book, which is part of the experience of enjoying it.
[00:17:23] Um, and I just feel like you can, there's so much more room to play with, with the TV series
[00:17:27] than a movie.
[00:17:27] So, um, I'm sure that there are film adaptations that I've enjoyed more than television adaptations,
[00:17:33] but as a medium, I think if, if I ever wrote a book and I was choosing a medium for it to
[00:17:39] be, um, to be adapted, adapted, I would say TV for me.
[00:17:44] Yeah. I, I love that.
[00:17:46] Thank you.
[00:17:47] And also you, you talked a lot about language and, uh, and writing, right.
[00:17:53] And, um, I personally did because this is my like IRL job, uh, is I am a Jewish educator.
[00:18:00] So we, we talk a lot about, right. Like what does language mean and translating like Hebrew
[00:18:05] and Aramaic to English and you know how things change.
[00:18:09] So thank you for bringing that up.
[00:18:11] Yeah. And also I want to know, uh, from you, like, where did your, then this adventure,
[00:18:16] right. Of like reading and talking through everything, then like translated to now where
[00:18:22] you are, where you are now doing the writing, right. And bringing all of this stuff up, um, on stage.
[00:18:28] Cause I was listening to a lot of your songs, uh, before too, just cause I love you, but, uh, in, in preparation for this podcast and, and the lyrics, right.
[00:18:37] It's just the certain word do you use, um, make so much more sense, right.
[00:18:41] With Greek mythology versus Roman, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:18:43] So I just would love to hear yet. Like when, um, you know, this confidence came to you, right.
[00:18:50] That like, Hey, this is something I can do maybe under J Maya and not Jenna, but still right.
[00:18:55] Like what, what, where, where did that adventure start?
[00:18:58] Oh, that's such a thoughtful question, Sasha. Thank you.
[00:19:01] Also, I am obsessed with the fact that you were a Jewish educator.
[00:19:06] Um, I actually, I don't think I knew that that's phenomenal.
[00:19:11] Um, and I want to like learn more about that.
[00:19:13] Um, and I also love talking about language and the power of language.
[00:19:19] I, I always say, say when I talk about like what I get to do now is my job, which every morning I wake up and I genuinely, genuinely cannot believe that it is my job to write songs and then put them out and then interact with the people that are listening to those songs.
[00:19:34] Um, basically. So I, when I grew up, I, I felt so I didn't have access to social media growing up.
[00:19:43] Um, even when like Instagram, Facebook were becoming popular, that was just like our household.
[00:19:48] And I really loved how we grew up. I feel like my sister and I had really real childhoods.
[00:19:54] Um, and I wouldn't like trade anything for that.
[00:19:56] I think the one downside to it was I was engaging with all of this media and I had no outlet for it.
[00:20:04] I, it was just, there was no one I could talk to about it.
[00:20:09] Nobody that I knew in real life was really engaging with the same media that I was engaging with.
[00:20:14] There were a couple of friends that I went to school with who would be reading the Percy Jackson books, but that was really the extent of it.
[00:20:20] And I just grew up with this intense desire to not only engage with the media, but, um, but be able to talk about it and to be able to really understand it and, uh, talk about it with people who are also really passionate about it.
[00:20:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:36] So I think like when I started to begin this journey as being an artist myself, everything that I was doing at a very early age was very attuned to the fan experience of, and the, the people who, I was trying to put myself in the shoes of people who were engaging with this.
[00:20:50] And I'm like, how can I make this experience the best possible experience for the people who are engaging with it?
[00:20:58] And that meant like, you know, creating discord channels, creating like opportunities for community, for people to be able to talk about it.
[00:21:04] And then I was just thinking about like the things that I really got excited about when I was younger and it was narrative.
[00:21:10] It was stories.
[00:21:11] It was, you know, telling a cohesive story.
[00:21:14] And I think that's really informed everything that I've tried to do as an artist.
[00:21:19] Um, this, I think I've, I've already kind of like share this on social media, but, um, my debut album, which is, will come out, I think quite soon at this point, which isn't fair to say.
[00:21:30] I know, crazy. I think that's announcing the date next week, which is insane.
[00:21:36] Um, but it's like a concept driven project and there will be like a story that accompanies it.
[00:21:41] And I've been scattering these Easter eggs for the last year and a half in all my songs, um, that kind of go toward this bigger picture.
[00:21:50] So it's been like incubating and in the works for years at this point, because I think that's just how important story is to me.
[00:21:57] Um, and so I think, yeah, that the, the short answer is like, I really strongly feel like everything, my entire childhood was so crucial and important because I didn't know it at the time.
[00:22:10] I thought there was no way that I would grow up and be an artist or a creative myself, um, which is so funny.
[00:22:15] And obviously I'm so grateful to be here now.
[00:22:18] Um, but I was almost like going through the motions of like, okay, when I have the opportunity to be an artist, when I grow up, like, this is the kind of artist I want to be.
[00:22:27] And I was like taking those building blocks.
[00:22:29] Um, and yeah, and I've been grateful that like, it took me a little bit of time when I first started making music and coming out here to like, get my feet wet with all of it.
[00:22:39] But now I'm just so stoked.
[00:22:41] Like, I feel like, um, everything that I dreamed about as a kid that I would one day get to do is, is happening.
[00:22:47] Um, knock on wood.
[00:22:48] So yeah, that's amazing.
[00:22:50] It is.
[00:22:50] It is happening.
[00:22:52] It is happening.
[00:22:53] It's, it's fantastic.
[00:23:06] So I, you mentioned the classics beforehand.
[00:23:08] Cause like, even from outside of like a, a, an immediate pop culture perspective, you know, things that came out when, when you were a kid, obviously a lot of throwbacks to Greek anthology as referenced, uh, in your videos, in your, your music.
[00:23:21] Was that always something that you were a fan of as well?
[00:23:25] And what do you think it is about like those types of stories that still ring through thousands upon thousands of years to this day?
[00:23:36] Oh, of course.
[00:23:37] Come on.
[00:23:38] This is your podcast.
[00:23:39] How could we not be leaving money on the table if we didn't?
[00:23:42] Seriously.
[00:23:43] I'm so excited.
[00:23:44] Um, oh my gosh.
[00:23:46] And please let me know if I'm like over talking at any point just because I get so passionate about Greek mythology.
[00:23:51] Um, so I've been obsessed with Greek mythology really my whole life.
[00:23:56] It started with the Percy Jackson series as I think so many, you know, classicists today that are in my generation have the same origin story.
[00:24:06] We were all nerds who were obsessed with, I'm not a classicist, but I'm friends with a lot of people who are, and we, you know, we genuinely all have the origin story of like being nerds who are obsessed with Percy Jackson and then becoming obsessed with any Greek mythology piece of media that we could get our hands on.
[00:24:23] Um, and it like followed me all the way into college.
[00:24:26] So I took classics courses in college.
[00:24:29] Um, my, the professor that I developed the deepest possible relationship with when I was in college was a classics professor.
[00:24:36] She specialized actually in modern adaptations of classical mythology music, which is so funny.
[00:24:46] And in fact, um, because through that relationship last year, I had the greatest honor of my career.
[00:24:54] And I developed a relationship with the Harvard classics department where I come back to Harvard and I actually get to like guest lecture to students about.
[00:25:03] Whoa.
[00:25:04] Oh my God.
[00:25:05] In contemporary music.
[00:25:06] Um, you get the chance to bang down the door again.
[00:25:09] Bang down.
[00:25:10] Yeah.
[00:25:10] This time I am banging down the door.
[00:25:12] Um, and I remember to, to that question that you asked Mike, because I think it, I found myself thinking about this a lot.
[00:25:18] Like, what is it about Greek mythology that is so sticky, both for kids, but then I think also for like, for, for everyone, everyone has some Greek myth that I feel like they weirdly imprint themselves onto.
[00:25:33] They feel resonant with.
[00:25:34] Um, and this was actually the topic of this, the, the talk that I gave last year.
[00:25:40] And I remember, um, the, the first, the kind of like crux of it was, um, it's about founding epics.
[00:25:49] So I saw this tweet, uh, this was like a trend about like a year or so ago, which was like, you know, the Babylonians had this epic.
[00:25:59] The Greeks had the Iliad, uh, the Mesopotamians had the epic of Gilgamesh.
[00:26:04] The Hindus had the Ramayana.
[00:26:05] And it, what is America's founding epic?
[00:26:08] And then the, the mean part of it is like the by sister James Charles video.
[00:26:12] Like you input some piece of media that is like the founding epic of whatever, like American media is very funny meme format.
[00:26:19] Um, as somebody who has never, you know, not overthought about anything in their entire life, it got me thinking.
[00:26:25] And I was like, wait, this is actually weirdly quite poignant because what is America's founding epic?
[00:26:31] Yeah.
[00:26:32] And, you know, there, we have, we have mythology in the sense of, we have the founding fathers, we have, you know, the Declaration of Independence, we have the Constitution.
[00:26:41] But these are not stories.
[00:26:43] They're not fictional stories the way that, you know, in Odysseus, besting the Cyclops is a story that King Rama vanquishing, um, you know, King, uh, evil, the evil king of Lanka is a story in the way that Gilgamesh and, and his brother Enkidu, um, and the relationship that develops between the two of them is a story.
[00:27:04] And it got me thinking just about how important story is to the fabric of civilization and society.
[00:27:12] And I started doing like a lot of research on what these founding epics, like what is the purpose of a founding epic?
[00:27:18] A founding epic, like a, it's a story that tells the world what values are so important to that civilization.
[00:27:27] The Iliad, arguably a more famous, more well-known story at the time that it became the founding epic of ancient Greece.
[00:27:36] But the Odyssey, which is, the Iliad is a war epic.
[00:27:39] The Odyssey is the story of a man who was trying to go home to his son and wife.
[00:27:44] And that became the founding epic of ancient Greece, not the glory, not the guts of the Trojan War.
[00:27:51] Um, it was a story about a man.
[00:27:54] It's so human.
[00:27:55] It's so character driven.
[00:27:57] And in that way, it says, what, what does it say about ancient Greece?
[00:28:00] It says that this is, you know, these are people who are deeply connected to their family.
[00:28:05] They're loyal people at the above all, all else.
[00:28:09] The Ramayana, what does the Ramayana say?
[00:28:12] It's obviously like the victory of good over evil, but it's also about loyalty to your country.
[00:28:16] It's about duty, which is dharma, which is so important to what like the Hindus believe about life.
[00:28:23] And so it's funny that, and then I started thinking about like how important Greek mythology is in American society.
[00:28:30] Because Americans, we don't have this.
[00:28:32] So we have to borrow it from other people.
[00:28:34] When you go to Washington, D.C., what statues do you see all around the city?
[00:28:38] You see statues of Athena.
[00:28:40] You see statues of Zeus.
[00:28:41] Everything is built as an homage to ancient Greece because we are hungry as a society for something that unites us as a community.
[00:28:51] And that tells us how we're supposed to live our lives, what is important to us.
[00:28:56] And that is why so much of us, I think from a young age, fall weirdly, deeply in love with Greek mythology.
[00:29:01] Because A, it's so human.
[00:29:03] It's so accessible.
[00:29:04] But B, it's something that feels bigger than us that connects us to a shared history.
[00:29:09] It doesn't matter if it's our shared history because we're a newer country.
[00:29:13] But it feels resonant in that way.
[00:29:16] Anyway, that was a long...
[00:29:21] I am in awe.
[00:29:23] This is one of my favorite conversations I've had in quite a while.
[00:29:26] Like, on or off, Mike.
[00:29:27] Like, God, my fingers are falling off from the amount of metaphoric snaps I was giving you to that.
[00:29:33] I mean, it's a good question, though.
[00:29:35] I was racking my brain.
[00:29:37] Me too.
[00:29:38] But like, Sasha, are there any...
[00:29:39] Like, if we could pick an American epic, do you...
[00:29:42] I have a couple in mind, but I'm intrigued to see if you have any.
[00:29:45] I don't know that...
[00:29:46] Yeah, there's an epic, right?
[00:29:48] Because I'm even thinking of fantasy.
[00:29:50] Like, you know, maybe that took over.
[00:29:52] And then I was like, oh, that's British.
[00:29:53] Oh, right.
[00:29:54] That's also British.
[00:29:55] And then this and that.
[00:29:57] I always think of our unfortunate, maybe, but our war stories seem to be our epics, right?
[00:30:05] Like, you think about, oh, well, the Civil War was a big deal.
[00:30:08] And here...
[00:30:08] And right, the Confederacy versus whatever else.
[00:30:12] That felt...
[00:30:13] That feels, rather.
[00:30:14] And I say this because I think I'm from the South,
[00:30:16] where that is still such a big identity marker.
[00:30:22] And taking away that identity marker, for whatever reason, right?
[00:30:26] Is dividing us, actually.
[00:30:29] So that's really interesting.
[00:30:31] Yeah, I have so many more thoughts.
[00:30:33] But yeah, this is fascinating.
[00:30:35] I mean, to me, maybe it's just because I'm a big freaking nerd.
[00:30:39] But the more, J-Mai, you were talking about, like, you know,
[00:30:42] what are some of the values that are taken from other pieces
[00:30:45] and that represent that culture.
[00:30:48] Like, it sounds so weird, but it sounds so American.
[00:30:51] I think the great American epic is Star Wars.
[00:30:57] Like, I think it represents so much, both in the moment and everything following.
[00:31:04] We're like, yes, big movie franchises existed before,
[00:31:07] but it spawned quite literally an entire universe.
[00:31:10] The themes in there, right, of, like,
[00:31:12] America was founded as a country of,
[00:31:14] oh, there is this evil empire that we have to overthrow
[00:31:17] and we are the good ones and we are going to do it.
[00:31:19] To the point that certain people from certain, you know,
[00:31:23] communities might take the wrong messages from Star Wars
[00:31:27] in terms of, like, who might the evil empire might be.
[00:31:31] You know, it also speaks to, like, the commercialism aspects as well,
[00:31:34] if you talk about it from a more meta perspective and maybe what it has become
[00:31:37] and this idea of, like, a ragtag group coming together,
[00:31:41] unified by quite literally a central force to do extraordinary things,
[00:31:46] like founded or unfounded.
[00:31:47] It sounds incredibly American to me.
[00:31:50] And it's odd because, again, we're talking about, like,
[00:31:52] tomes that were etched in stone thousands of years ago
[00:31:55] versus, like, a movie that George Lucas made in 1977.
[00:31:59] But it does feel wholly American to me for a country
[00:32:02] that was celebrating its bicentennial around the time that Star Wars was released.
[00:32:06] No, I love that.
[00:32:08] I love that.
[00:32:08] And I think it's interesting what actually the both of you are now saying, right?
[00:32:14] We're in this vacuum, right, of having this one thing,
[00:32:19] the foundational, rather, I should say, epic instead, right?
[00:32:23] What does that mean then?
[00:32:25] And I think a survivor in that way.
[00:32:28] Survivor's been around for, right?
[00:32:31] Y'all tell me.
[00:32:32] Nearly 25 years.
[00:32:33] Thank you.
[00:32:35] You know, I'm not a math girly or a survivor girly.
[00:32:38] But anyway, it's just, you know, it's been around for this long.
[00:32:41] And I always like to make a joke, right?
[00:32:43] Like, oh, it takes itself so serious.
[00:32:46] Like, it's like people basically naked starving on a beach.
[00:32:49] It's like enough.
[00:32:50] But I think about this, the sense of belonging that has created over these 25 years.
[00:32:57] And you're right that one person gets to be, right?
[00:33:00] The winner and like comes through, you know, in whatever version of the war that we go through.
[00:33:06] And how many in America have these like little pockets of their own epics?
[00:33:13] Like, that's fascinating.
[00:33:14] And as an immigrant, I think coming, moving to this country, that's what I was holding a lot as well.
[00:33:21] It's like, I, you know, like I said, I'm Jewish.
[00:33:25] But I grew up in India where nothing felt like siloed, right?
[00:33:29] Like, I read the Ramayana.
[00:33:31] I read the Mahabharata.
[00:33:32] Like, that was normal.
[00:33:33] Like, it wasn't like necessarily this religious experience.
[00:33:37] You're right that it was this like story that, you know, yeah, good versus evil.
[00:33:41] Or, you know, in Mahabharata, right?
[00:33:43] Like family and why it's important for families to maybe be together and not fight and kill each other.
[00:33:49] But anyway, it's just really interesting.
[00:33:52] And then I moved to America.
[00:33:55] And granted, I moved to Oklahoma.
[00:33:57] So a lot to say there.
[00:33:58] But everything felt so siloed.
[00:34:00] Like, oh, this is our religion.
[00:34:02] And this is what we do.
[00:34:04] And that's it, right?
[00:34:05] And then maybe your neighbor does something.
[00:34:06] And maybe you get invited to things.
[00:34:09] Versus in India when something's happening.
[00:34:11] Everyone's invited to everything.
[00:34:13] And you're just like, oh, it's this holiday.
[00:34:15] So then I know that this neighbor is going to be inviting me and making all this food.
[00:34:19] Then, oh, it's my holiday.
[00:34:20] So now I am that communal aspect of getting everyone and bringing everyone together.
[00:34:26] But you're right.
[00:34:27] It's built on that foundation.
[00:34:28] And I wonder this, like, isolationism that happens in America, right?
[00:34:34] Is that because there isn't this, like, huge founding value necessarily that's built in a story?
[00:34:40] And instead over real human.
[00:34:43] Again, not to, like, drag anyone.
[00:34:45] Or, you know, for people, like, the wrong mind is real.
[00:34:48] Yes, fair.
[00:34:49] Okay.
[00:34:50] I get it.
[00:34:51] But you know what I mean.
[00:34:53] Like, it's just we can, like, historically trace it back to these people.
[00:34:58] So that equals us saying, oh, well, here's why I don't believe in it.
[00:35:03] Versus what, Mike, you're saying, like Star Wars.
[00:35:06] It's not.
[00:35:06] It's a story.
[00:35:07] And that's why folks can get attached to it.
[00:35:10] So that's so fascinating.
[00:35:11] And I can't wait to now lead a session on this.
[00:35:15] Yes.
[00:35:15] Well, you'd be more, honestly, Sasha.
[00:35:18] No.
[00:35:19] Than anyone.
[00:35:20] You're, as an educator, and then someone with this, like, super interesting background.
[00:35:24] I'm just fascinated by it.
[00:35:26] And this question of identity and how identity relates to value and stories.
[00:35:31] And identity formation when you're young, specifically, which is, I think, when we,
[00:35:34] it's an age when we all kind of find the pieces of media that we're interested in.
[00:35:39] And we start to use those to define what our identity is to our peers.
[00:35:44] And it makes me think about this idea of a monoculture.
[00:35:49] And I was, like, nodding vigorously with you, Mike, when you were talking about Star Wars,
[00:35:54] because I genuinely couldn't agree more with you that America creates its founding epics
[00:36:01] in real time.
[00:36:03] We are hungry.
[00:36:04] We are hungry for it.
[00:36:06] And so Star Wars, I was snapping vigorously because I couldn't agree more with you.
[00:36:10] It was monoculture.
[00:36:11] Every single person in the country knew what it was.
[00:36:13] They knew the characters.
[00:36:15] They knew the values.
[00:36:16] And I think that we have many epics that come about in real time.
[00:36:20] And it comes back to this idea, and this is very dramatic, but the Greeks had gods.
[00:36:26] They had 12 gods.
[00:36:27] A lot of these cultures have had gods.
[00:36:29] And we as Americans, we're looking for gods.
[00:36:33] We're looking for moments in monoculture that create characters that we can see ourselves in.
[00:36:39] And Sasha, what you were saying about Survivor, I think the big sweep of Survivor that happened
[00:36:44] when it first came out, when it became firmly a part of the American monoculture and became
[00:36:49] this cultural talking point, that was Americans being like, we found it.
[00:36:54] We found it.
[00:36:54] This is the epic.
[00:36:55] This is an American thing.
[00:36:57] Like, this is our thing.
[00:36:59] You know what I mean?
[00:37:00] Like, and it so ties to these values of meritocracy, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, being
[00:37:06] the last one standing.
[00:37:09] And I think that's why it felt so, when it happened, like, oh my God, like, this is so
[00:37:14] exciting.
[00:37:14] This is us.
[00:37:16] This is who we are.
[00:37:16] This is our identity.
[00:37:18] And I think moments in culture happen like this.
[00:37:21] Like, I think with Game of Thrones, oddly, that like sweeping epic story of it, like really
[00:37:27] cemented it as like firmly in the monoculture.
[00:37:30] And I feel that the attitude with these things in society, it's not just, oh, you haven't seen
[00:37:34] Game of Thrones.
[00:37:35] You haven't seen Survivor.
[00:37:36] It's like, you haven't seen Survivor.
[00:37:38] You haven't seen Game of Thrones.
[00:37:40] It almost feels like a personal offense if someone hasn't seen it, if you're invested
[00:37:45] in it, because you know how formative it is to like, it's the thing that everyone at
[00:37:49] work is talking about on Tuesday.
[00:37:51] And you don't want to be a part of that.
[00:37:52] You know what I mean?
[00:37:53] Anyway, so I couldn't agree more.
[00:37:56] And I think Survivor 100% has been in epic for America.
[00:38:02] Not to like, I love Survivor.
[00:38:05] All right, Jeff, come on in.
[00:38:07] Now you heard it.
[00:38:08] You heard the magic part.
[00:38:09] Put it on 50.
[00:38:10] Hey, Jeff Probst, aka Homer, I guess.
[00:38:15] You know?
[00:38:15] I'm dead.
[00:38:17] You're a Homer for Homer.
[00:38:19] Yes.
[00:38:20] Same thing about The Simpsons.
[00:38:22] So that's funny.
[00:38:23] Yeah, exactly.
[00:38:23] Do you have like a favorite mythological adaptation?
[00:38:28] Oh my God.
[00:38:29] Yes.
[00:38:30] Book-wise, Circe by Madeline Miller.
[00:38:32] It's because it's so human.
[00:38:34] It feels like Madeline Miller in general as an author, I feel like is writing modern day
[00:38:38] epics.
[00:38:39] But like that resonate with our generation and like the millennials and Gen Z and feel so
[00:38:46] distinctly human and complex.
[00:38:48] So yeah, I can't speak highly enough of her.
[00:38:51] I gotta be so honest.
[00:38:53] The Percy Jackson TV show, 10 out of freaking 10.
[00:38:58] I think that show is so well done.
[00:39:01] Yeah.
[00:39:02] Yeah, I'm obsessed with it.
[00:39:03] I actually, this is, I go on so many Percy Jackson TV show podcasts just to talk about how much
[00:39:10] I love the show.
[00:39:12] It's so fun.
[00:39:14] I watched a little bit of it.
[00:39:15] I definitely enjoyed it.
[00:39:16] So I, my own like origin story with this was that when my son was like one or two years
[00:39:22] old, we like read books to him, even though he had no comprehension.
[00:39:26] And like, my wife is a huge Percy Jackson fan.
[00:39:28] And so she just had the series lying around.
[00:39:30] And so I was like, okay, like I never read it before.
[00:39:33] I'm like, okay, I guess I'll read.
[00:39:34] And so I read it aloud and I did all the voices.
[00:39:35] You know, I did my best, my best, like, what's his name from the Harry Potter series, Jim
[00:39:42] something.
[00:39:44] That guy.
[00:39:46] That guy.
[00:39:47] Exactly.
[00:39:47] I was that guy.
[00:39:49] But I, I did a whole read through of that Jim Dale, Jim Dale and Stephen Fry.
[00:39:56] But then I was like, oh, actually, I mean, I was very much into Greek mythology.
[00:40:01] I had that little like big book that everybody has that we ended up buying for my son.
[00:40:05] So I just didn't have time to check out the rest of it.
[00:40:07] But I, especially compared to the movie, I really enjoyed it.
[00:40:11] One that blows me out of the water, though, especially as of late, I am a massive Hadestown
[00:40:17] fan.
[00:40:18] Oh, me too.
[00:40:20] I was gonna say, J.M.
[00:40:21] I, if you have not checked it out, like, it's so in your wheelhouse.
[00:40:23] It is about the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.
[00:40:26] And it's like folk, soul, jazz music like that just feels like a recipe for success, in
[00:40:33] your opinion.
[00:40:34] I'm obsessed with it.
[00:40:35] I've been obsessed with it for so freaking long.
[00:40:39] I, I think I like first became a fan of it in college because my professor, Dr. Weiss,
[00:40:45] that I was talking about earlier, she was like, when Hadestown was first being like developed
[00:40:51] regionally, she was the biggest freaking advocate for it.
[00:40:54] She was telling all of her students about it.
[00:40:56] And so I remember being like, okay, well, I'll check out, I'll check this out.
[00:40:59] And I think the Anais Mitchell original concept album was the first thing I listened to.
[00:41:04] And it was so freaking good.
[00:41:06] Like, the music is, it's just very special to me, actually.
[00:41:10] Like, so I'm a huge theater fan.
[00:41:12] And like, I love musicals specifically that like, I just feel like have their own musical ethos.
[00:41:22] They're building a world.
[00:41:23] And Hadestown, of all the shows that are currently on Broadway to me, does that so freaking well,
[00:41:29] where the music, you're not getting the music that you're hearing at Hadestown anywhere else.
[00:41:34] And so like, it's building a world from scratch that like immerses the audience into something new and exciting.
[00:41:41] And not to like, I technically am a part of it, but I, from a very nuanced perspective,
[00:41:47] I do think that this new musical called Epic the Musical, which is huge on TikTok.
[00:41:53] Yes, I've heard about this.
[00:41:54] I was like, I have two, yeah.
[00:41:57] One of my, so I, I do play Aphrodite in the musical.
[00:42:02] So I, this is going to sound insanely biased.
[00:42:04] And I am very grateful for all the love that's on the way of the musical, obviously.
[00:42:10] And I've actually known the creator of the musical.
[00:42:13] We're very, very, very close friends.
[00:42:14] And we've known each other for three and a half years, which is insane at this point.
[00:42:18] And it's been such a blessing to see.
[00:42:20] I just love when my friends win.
[00:42:23] It is my, it is my love language.
[00:42:25] Language is my favorite thing in the world.
[00:42:27] So seeing this musical get the acclaim that it very much deserves over the last year has
[00:42:33] been very special to witness.
[00:42:36] And I think that that musical does something.
[00:42:39] And the funny thing is like, Hadestown and Epic couldn't be more disparate as sounds,
[00:42:44] as storytelling mechanisms.
[00:42:46] Like it is so free.
[00:42:47] Epic is a 40 song sung through Epic.
[00:42:50] It is meant to, I feel like Hadestown strips the Epic down to its most human moments.
[00:42:58] And Epic is trying to make it as big as possible.
[00:43:02] And the music is more inspired by video game scores than it is by like traditional musical theater.
[00:43:10] But what these two stories are doing is showing how different adaptations can be.
[00:43:16] There you go.
[00:43:17] Exactly.
[00:43:18] Exactly.
[00:43:18] The source material, when it's so well known and people like know the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice,
[00:43:24] like the back of their hand, no pun intended.
[00:43:26] And like they know the story of the Odyssey.
[00:43:28] Like they, you can play with it.
[00:43:31] You can, you can.
[00:43:32] And that's where adaptation and translation becomes its own art form.
[00:43:36] And you're making something distinct with it.
[00:43:38] And I just really appreciate adaptations that can do that really well, you know.
[00:43:43] Yeah.
[00:43:43] You say that everyone knows Orpheus and Eurydice,
[00:43:45] but I think one of my favorite Loki things to do on the internet is track people who are
[00:43:49] talking about whenever, spoiler alert for a, you know, millennia year old myth.
[00:43:56] But every time Orpheus turns around and looks at Eurydice when doubt comes in and like people
[00:44:03] tell stories about how shocked audience members are by when it happens, whether it's like them
[00:44:08] gasping and them going like, damn, or like something like that for whatever reason, whether
[00:44:11] it's a lack of education about the story or just getting caught up in the mood, or maybe
[00:44:16] it's to your point, it's that ability to make old stories feel new again with a fresh coat
[00:44:20] of paint.
[00:44:21] It's able to make you like sort of relive getting to experience that story all over again.
[00:44:26] Oh my gosh.
[00:44:27] I mean, that's, that's how good the musical is, right?
[00:44:30] Like they, that moment is such a big moment because of all of the storytelling that goes
[00:44:36] into it, the rising action.
[00:44:37] And I'm sure that even as an audience goer who knows what's about to happen, like you
[00:44:41] see that moment unfold and you're like, I don't know, maybe, maybe they make it through.
[00:44:45] Yeah.
[00:44:45] Maybe, maybe this time, despite the fact that again, spoiler alert in the very beginning
[00:44:49] of the show, they say like, it's a sad song and we're going to sing it again.
[00:44:54] And spoiler alert, watch out.
[00:44:56] It's not a good ending, but they're like, we're having such a great time.
[00:44:59] What were they saying back then?
[00:45:00] It doesn't matter anymore.
[00:45:02] Listen, everyone wants a happy ending.
[00:45:05] And sometimes in your adaptation, in your mind, you're like, surely they adapt it positive.
[00:45:11] It's delusion.
[00:45:12] It's delusion.
[00:45:13] Oh my God.
[00:45:14] Oh my God.
[00:45:16] You want to be calliope and get excited.
[00:45:18] Okay.
[00:45:19] It is what it is.
[00:45:21] We have.
[00:45:23] Um, also have either of you seen Hadestown on Broadway?
[00:45:27] No.
[00:45:28] Yeah.
[00:45:28] So I've seen it.
[00:45:28] I've seen it twice on Broadway.
[00:45:31] Oh my gosh.
[00:45:32] Were you, were you, did you see it with even Oblizata and Reeve Carney?
[00:45:35] I did.
[00:45:37] I saw it literally, uh, about a month before COVID hit.
[00:45:42] And I'm fairly sure I actually got COVID, uh, from the performance, but yeah, we ended up
[00:45:46] going for Valentine's day.
[00:45:47] And so I saw everyone in the original cast, but Patrick Page.
[00:45:51] So I ended up very much lucking out in that regard, but yeah, it was so wild time because
[00:45:56] we walked into that pretty blind.
[00:45:58] Um, I had not really, I, I caught like a couple of songs that kind of broken through on social
[00:46:03] media, but I purposely wanted to go in as unknowing as possible.
[00:46:06] And I was just like, like, I cannot speak highly.
[00:46:09] This is, this is the show that I personally like to tout for anyone who's coming into town
[00:46:14] or is like looking for something new to check out.
[00:46:16] Um, it's not everyone's cup of tea.
[00:46:17] You know, I may have talked with a couple of reality alum who were here the past couple
[00:46:21] of weeks who said that it wasn't their thing surprisingly, but like for me between
[00:46:24] the music, the staging, the aesthetics, like absolute 10 out of 10 would get COVID again.
[00:46:30] And I'm pretty sure I did the second time that I saw it as well.
[00:46:35] I'm pretty, I got very sick again, right after I saw it, uh, for my wife's birthday last
[00:46:40] year.
[00:46:40] So it's like, you know what?
[00:46:42] Fine.
[00:46:42] It doesn't matter.
[00:46:43] I'll keep rolling the dice on this.
[00:46:45] Is there some spell that's going on that we didn't know?
[00:46:48] I don't know.
[00:46:49] I mean, my, my health gets dragged on the road to hell every time I go in that theater,
[00:46:53] but I'm not going to complain too much about it.
[00:46:56] Wait, that's so funny.
[00:46:59] Um, they like give you, they intentionally infect you so that you were left to be at home,
[00:47:05] just replaying the song.
[00:47:06] That's exactly it.
[00:47:06] Like I can't, I can't move on.
[00:47:08] I can't move on.
[00:47:10] They want you to like sit there and write fan fiction and really get into, you know,
[00:47:14] all the Reddit communities.
[00:47:16] Why not?
[00:47:17] Cause you're sick.
[00:47:17] What else you got going?
[00:47:18] Exactly.
[00:47:19] Like I got to, I'll, I'll start up that AO3 account and start writing slash fan fiction.
[00:47:23] I love this.
[00:47:25] I love this.
[00:47:27] I would get sick to see Hades count on Broadway.
[00:47:31] Do you have any like big mythological adaptations that hang in your heart that you know of?
[00:47:38] Yeah, because I'm Indian yet.
[00:47:40] Right.
[00:47:40] Like every, every year you have to, yeah.
[00:47:44] It's like the adaptation happened.
[00:47:46] You go see the Ramayana.
[00:47:48] Cause Zivali's coming up right next week.
[00:47:51] So it's just, and that's when the story gets told.
[00:47:54] Listen, your girl was in the play or two for the Ramayana adaptation.
[00:47:59] Don't worry about Sasha.
[00:48:00] Sasha.
[00:48:01] Listen, I was Zita sometimes.
[00:48:04] With like very dimir, very mindful things.
[00:48:07] I'm not.
[00:48:09] Right.
[00:48:10] Like, no, be serious.
[00:48:12] The amount of time the teacher had to be like, you know, you're like, you need to be like,
[00:48:16] oh, shy and whatever.
[00:48:18] Didn't happen.
[00:48:20] That was also my fair lady.
[00:48:22] So like, you know, I could do it guys.
[00:48:25] But yeah, so there were my, like, again, for me, that was a big thing.
[00:48:28] And this is like really silly and funny.
[00:48:31] But when I first met my mother-in-law, who, again, I'm not South Indian.
[00:48:37] They are.
[00:48:37] They're pretty like, I don't know the right word, but like they're conservative in that way.
[00:48:44] And they met me and they were asking me all these questions.
[00:48:46] And I was like, well, you know, I lived in India, like longer than my husband, number one.
[00:48:51] And she's like, right, but we're Hindu.
[00:48:53] And I was like, right.
[00:48:54] I have read all of these epics.
[00:48:57] Like, my husband has not.
[00:48:59] So it's a very just funny thinking about all of this.
[00:49:03] Because, yeah, to me, like, those are the stories that I always think of.
[00:49:08] I was just watching.
[00:49:09] Yeah, I was just watching a show.
[00:49:12] Oh, the Pradeeps of Pittsburgh.
[00:49:16] Everyone, please watch it.
[00:49:18] It's Comedy Mystery.
[00:49:20] It's on Amazon.
[00:49:21] Very easy watch.
[00:49:23] It's billed as just a comedy show, but it's actually a mystery.
[00:49:26] I loved it.
[00:49:27] A mystery?
[00:49:28] Yeah.
[00:49:28] It's like a whodunit comedy.
[00:49:31] So would recommend Pradeeps of Pittsburgh.
[00:49:34] Anyway, so they talk about Donataria in the show.
[00:49:40] And it's like a normal thing.
[00:49:41] And he's talking about these two, talking to these two, like, country-ass white people.
[00:49:47] And he's like, I'll be your, like, you know, teacher.
[00:49:50] And here's why this is important.
[00:49:52] And you can be, like, because he's teaching them how to shoot bow and arrows.
[00:49:57] So to me, like, these stories have always been part of my life.
[00:50:00] So it's very weird.
[00:50:02] Like, I don't want to personally forget them living in America.
[00:50:07] So I always seek out, like, adaptations.
[00:50:09] Yeah.
[00:50:09] That was so long-winded.
[00:50:11] Sorry.
[00:50:11] No.
[00:50:12] Listen.
[00:50:12] The Windsor have been blowing this.
[00:50:13] This is a whole gale force hurricane, this podcast.
[00:50:16] But yeah, Pradeeps of Pittsburgh.
[00:50:18] Shout out.
[00:50:19] Pradeeps of Pittsburgh.
[00:50:21] Well, I just saw, like, the picture is just, like, of a family with a young child.
[00:50:24] And I'm like, this is a mystery?
[00:50:26] No, it's like an immigrant family that moves to America.
[00:50:30] And the dad gets a contract from SpaceX.
[00:50:37] Y'all, it's so funny.
[00:50:39] And I'm not spoiling too much.
[00:50:41] They just, like, come in.
[00:50:42] And again, it's this, like, play on how Pittsburgh, unfortunately, right?
[00:50:46] Or, like, these places in America aren't ready to, like, accept.
[00:50:52] Yeah, I think that's a fair way to say it.
[00:50:54] I'm ready to accept immigrants.
[00:50:56] So the immigration officer, like, says each person's name.
[00:50:59] But he, like, butchers each person.
[00:51:01] But it's so funny.
[00:51:02] Because it's a camel.
[00:51:03] He calls him camel.
[00:51:05] So he calls him camel and this and this and this and this.
[00:51:08] And then without missing a beat, the dad is like, yes.
[00:51:10] So I'm Pradeep.
[00:51:12] Like, they'll just, they do the translation.
[00:51:14] I don't know.
[00:51:15] It's very clever.
[00:51:16] Yeah, I just, I really enjoyed it.
[00:51:18] I watched it last week.
[00:51:20] Amazing.
[00:51:20] I love that.
[00:51:22] And I still hear you on the Ramayana plays that you do growing up.
[00:51:26] The amount of times that, like, we would get into squabbles about who got to play Sita.
[00:51:31] And then, like, one of us would play Kaike.
[00:51:33] And we'd be like, so you hate me.
[00:51:35] So you think I'm ugly and annoying.
[00:51:37] Oh, yeah.
[00:51:37] You're trying to, like, infer what they think about you based on what you were cast as.
[00:51:42] I was also a little bit of a bully growing up.
[00:51:46] Oops.
[00:51:46] So, but only to the boys.
[00:51:48] So I would, like, I would be the, like, the person casting a lot of these plays.
[00:51:54] And you would cast yourself as Sita.
[00:51:55] I love it.
[00:51:57] Oh, my God.
[00:51:58] Well, speaking of casting, I would love to bring this up for you, Jay.
[00:52:02] So let's say that they do, like, a scripted version of Survivor 45.
[00:52:07] They get to talk about adaptations.
[00:52:09] If you get the chance to cast someone to play yourself, who would it be?
[00:52:14] Oh, my God.
[00:52:15] Does it have to be race conscious?
[00:52:17] No, you know what?
[00:52:18] Well, our minds are open here.
[00:52:20] Okay, beautiful.
[00:52:21] Beautiful.
[00:52:22] I appreciate you saying that so much.
[00:52:25] And I was about to pick from, like, three actresses.
[00:52:29] That people know of, yeah.
[00:52:32] I was like, okay.
[00:52:35] My three, obviously.
[00:52:37] Yeah.
[00:52:37] I would go and say my three, no, I'm just kidding.
[00:52:41] I think it did really well.
[00:52:44] Okay.
[00:52:45] Oh, my God.
[00:52:45] Let me say, oh, my God.
[00:52:47] Okay, so let's dissect this.
[00:52:48] So in Survivor 45, the person would have to get, would have to convey the reaction when
[00:52:54] the shot in the dark hits very well, because that is the emotional climax of my arc.
[00:53:02] And so I'm going to go ahead.
[00:53:04] Oh, my gosh.
[00:53:05] Can I say, am I allowed to say Ayo Ediviri is my name?
[00:53:11] Because she's so good at the race.
[00:53:14] She's so funny.
[00:53:15] I would love to be played by someone funny because she would be so much funnier than I
[00:53:19] am, which I would love to see.
[00:53:20] And then I think she also, but she has the range to do the emotion because I love the
[00:53:26] bear and I think she, like, crushes it in the bear.
[00:53:29] So she's my dream.
[00:53:30] And then I'm going to give a backup because I think I have.
[00:53:33] An understudy.
[00:53:34] An understudy.
[00:53:35] She's booked and busy.
[00:53:36] And, you know, that's like, I know she would do this.
[00:53:39] She's so funny.
[00:53:40] Like, Ayo's, have you seen all her Letterboxd reviews, right, that went viral?
[00:53:45] Oh, yes.
[00:53:45] So it's just, you know, she's a writer too.
[00:53:47] So it's just, I think it works.
[00:53:50] I'm kind of obsessed.
[00:53:51] I mean, I know I'm obsessed with her.
[00:53:53] I'm actually going to pick an actress.
[00:53:55] No, no, she's so young.
[00:53:56] Okay.
[00:53:56] I'm not going to pick her.
[00:53:56] I was going to pick someone from Percy Jackson and the Olympians, but I'm like, she's like
[00:53:59] 18.
[00:53:59] I mean, we just like put her in a world where we age her up a little bit.
[00:54:02] Yeah.
[00:54:02] Okay.
[00:54:03] Okay.
[00:54:03] Um, I love the actress who plays Clarice in Percy Jackson and the Olympians, Dior Goodjohn.
[00:54:09] Um, I just, I think she's a phenomenal actress and is lovely and also makes amazing music that
[00:54:15] we should all go and check out.
[00:54:16] Oh, and it's also just like a really lovely person.
[00:54:20] Um, so I'm going to go say my girl, Dior.
[00:54:23] She's lovely.
[00:54:24] All right.
[00:54:25] And also she's like, she's, she plays like a really badass character on Percy Jackson and
[00:54:29] the Olympians.
[00:54:30] And it's like wishful thinking, but it'd be amazing to have someone who can play that
[00:54:36] play me.
[00:54:36] I'm exclusively playing actresses, picking actresses who are like, you know, they're like, I just
[00:54:42] love this.
[00:54:42] No, you're the Jesse Tannenbaum.
[00:54:44] You're the ones that are like putting these people forward.
[00:54:46] Do you wish cast however you want to?
[00:54:49] All I've ever wanted is to cosplay the lovely Jesse Tannenbaum.
[00:54:55] I think he's the best.
[00:54:56] Oh my gosh.
[00:54:57] I love this.
[00:54:58] Also, uh, unrelated, but related.
[00:55:01] What is your favorite Bollywood movie?
[00:55:02] Oh my God, Sasha.
[00:55:04] I know.
[00:55:06] The soundtrack to Yejavani Hazel.
[00:55:09] Oh yes.
[00:55:09] Yes.
[00:55:10] Very much your, um, your epic, your generation.
[00:55:14] That is my epic.
[00:55:15] That if I could pick an epic that has been foundational to my life and has impacted every
[00:55:21] decision.
[00:55:21] So basically this movie, it's called Yejavani Hazelani.
[00:55:23] It's about this girl.
[00:55:24] And, and I'm going to say the plot and you're going to be like, you're going to roll your
[00:55:27] eyes because.
[00:55:28] This is something I really want to do on one of these podcasts.
[00:55:30] Just say the plot to Bollywood movies.
[00:55:32] And folks are like, this is not real.
[00:55:33] Yeah.
[00:55:34] I want to hear all about this.
[00:55:36] Um, so this movie is about a girl who was like unbelievably nerdy head in a book.
[00:55:42] And she runs into this friend group from her high school and they like are acquaintances,
[00:55:48] but they don't know each other really well of three.
[00:55:50] Like they're like, they were like the bad kids in high school and they're about to leave
[00:55:54] on a mountaineering trip the next day.
[00:55:57] And they like jokingly invite her.
[00:55:59] And she's like, you know what?
[00:56:01] Screw this.
[00:56:01] I'm going to leave my medical exams and go on this mountain trip.
[00:56:05] Leave my Harvard delinquents.
[00:56:06] Yeah.
[00:56:08] And go on this mountain trip to the wilderness where I am away for a certain amount of time
[00:56:15] and learn to, and that's, that's the first part of the movie.
[00:56:19] Then she falls in love.
[00:56:21] Spoiler alert.
[00:56:21] Sorry.
[00:56:22] To anyone who wanted to watch this with one of the guys from this crew.
[00:56:25] And, but like he, it just is like faded.
[00:56:29] You know, they're not meant to be together at that time.
[00:56:31] They're, they're going their separate ways.
[00:56:33] She goes back.
[00:56:34] Um, and then if the second part of the movie is it's the wedding of one of the other people
[00:56:39] in the trio.
[00:56:40] So everyone gets back together like 10 years in the future.
[00:56:43] And, um, it's like just exploring all the dynamics after it's one of my favorite movies
[00:56:48] I've ever watched.
[00:56:49] It literally inspired me.
[00:56:50] I took, I watched this in high school and the summer before I went to college, I went
[00:56:55] on a mountaineering trip and I climbed the three sisters mountain range in Oregon, literally
[00:57:01] a hundred percent exclusively inspired by this movie.
[00:57:05] Oh my God.
[00:57:07] I'm a girl.
[00:57:09] I am dramatic.
[00:57:10] And I was seeking my main character moment.
[00:57:12] And yeah, it was phenomenal.
[00:57:14] Did you have the fake glasses to make you seem nerdy, even though you're incredibly hot?
[00:57:18] Like girl.
[00:57:19] Bollywood is so funny because they are like, I always joke that Bollywood is like 10 years
[00:57:24] behind the cliches of American movies.
[00:57:26] A hundred percent.
[00:57:26] So like the trend where like the girl, the nerdy girl takes off her glasses.
[00:57:31] The she's all that.
[00:57:32] Yeah.
[00:57:32] Yeah.
[00:57:32] Exactly.
[00:57:33] It's so that.
[00:57:37] It's so funny.
[00:57:38] And, you know, backup pop culture, Mess Magnets time.
[00:57:43] But the actor and actors were dating and she gets his letter of his name R tattooed on her
[00:57:51] neck, back of her neck.
[00:57:54] And then she, she marries someone else with a very similar name.
[00:58:00] Just one letter removed.
[00:58:03] Ranveer Kapoor versus Ranveer Kapoor.
[00:58:06] Two of the biggest Bollywood actors.
[00:58:09] But Sasha the lore, which I recently discovered about this movie.
[00:58:12] So Deepika and Ranveer had dated prior to Yisuke.
[00:58:17] Yeah.
[00:58:18] They talked about her in coffee.
[00:58:18] But he cheated on her.
[00:58:20] And then she had to film the movie anyway.
[00:58:22] Where they were in love interest.
[00:58:24] I didn't know that.
[00:58:26] Yeah.
[00:58:27] I feel like freshly, they were freshly broken up.
[00:58:29] Mm-hmm.
[00:58:30] Yeah.
[00:58:30] He's like a dog.
[00:58:34] Wow.
[00:58:35] Wow.
[00:58:36] He was saying, like, perpetually, I don't want to grow up character.
[00:58:40] Like, that's in every movie.
[00:58:42] Like, Wake Up Kid, right?
[00:58:43] Like, every movie.
[00:58:44] Man, children.
[00:58:45] Yeah.
[00:58:45] And you could, low-key, that'd be his life.
[00:58:49] You can't tell me otherwise.
[00:58:50] Let's say he married now to a much younger woman.
[00:58:53] Alia Butt.
[00:58:54] Yep.
[00:58:55] And a much younger woman.
[00:58:58] And they have a baby.
[00:59:00] So, you know, shout out to him.
[00:59:02] Well, as much as I am willing to just listen to a huge deep dive about all the drama that is involved within the world of Indian film.
[00:59:10] Unfortunately, we are starting to bid adieu.
[00:59:13] We've reached the final verse of this podcast.
[00:59:16] But, J. Maya, to say this was a pleasure would be an understatement.
[00:59:18] You are so beautiful with your words.
[00:59:21] I mean, it shows why you're such, like, a fantastic lyricist.
[00:59:24] It's just, like, when you are so passionate about something from a story to an epic to any piece of media that you talked about that is so foundational to you.
[00:59:32] Like, you could just feel the energy behind it.
[00:59:35] It is as electric as one of Zeus's bowls.
[00:59:37] So, thank you so much for taking the time today to talk with us about all of your interests and your passions and beyond.
[00:59:45] And for people who want to check out all the great stuff you're doing, what do you have to plug?
[00:59:50] Oh, my gosh.
[00:59:51] From such a wordsmith himself, Mike Bloom, I appreciate you so much, Mike.
[00:59:57] I really felt like this conversation was a garden.
[01:00:00] We were planting seeds, watching them grow, and everything was in bloom.
[01:00:06] Boom.
[01:00:06] And, um...
[01:00:08] Right behind you.
[01:00:10] Yeah.
[01:00:10] No pun intended.
[01:00:11] And, um, I just wanted to thank you both for this lovely conversation.
[01:00:15] Um, I'm gonna...
[01:00:18] Oh, my gosh.
[01:00:18] I think by the time that this comes out, I will have announced that my debut album is forthcoming and will come before the end of this year.
[01:00:27] And you can pre-save it on all platforms.
[01:00:30] It is a story from top to bottom, and each of the songs on the album corresponds to a chapter of the story.
[01:00:37] I'm extraordinarily excited.
[01:00:38] It is inspired, to no one's surprise, by Greek mythology.
[01:00:43] Um, so if you're a fan of Greek mythology, hopefully you'll be a fan of the project.
[01:00:48] Um, and I'm just so excited for that.
[01:00:51] And I have some live shows coming also before the end of the year if you live anywhere on the East Coast.
[01:00:57] Um, so I'm really excited about that as well.
[01:01:00] And that's kind of, that's kind of it for me.
[01:01:03] Um, and to both of you, thank you again for just such a wonderful, meaningful conversation.
[01:01:07] Thank you for letting me rant about the classics and Percy Jackson and Wizards of Bravely plays for an hour.
[01:01:15] I really appreciate it.
[01:01:17] Well, so I wish we could go on for like 100 hours.
[01:01:19] The pleasure was all ours.
[01:01:21] Sasha, what would you like to plug?
[01:01:23] You mentioned a couple of your previous works earlier on this podcast.
[01:01:27] Yes, um, of course.
[01:01:28] Like I said, you can always check out Mess Magnets,
[01:01:31] where Kirsten McInnes and I are talking everything pop culture, everything trending.
[01:01:35] You need to check out messmagnets.com to keep updated on what's going on in the world, all right?
[01:01:41] And, uh, of course, uh, Matt Liguori and I are talking Dancing with the Stars.
[01:01:47] And it's been so much fun.
[01:01:49] We just had Aman come on to talk Disney night.
[01:01:53] And it was truly, and I still haven't changed my background.
[01:01:57] Oops.
[01:01:57] But listen, Disney night was so much fun.
[01:02:02] And just, I'm, I'm really enjoying the show, even though they're playing me with the scores,
[01:02:08] but it's fine.
[01:02:09] And it was really fun though.
[01:02:11] And for everything else, of course, just check out my Twitter at funsize underscore 04.
[01:02:15] And what about you, Mike?
[01:02:17] You and my usual Survivor-ish.
[01:02:19] Uh, we have reached the point where J Maia was taken from us in, uh, Survivor 47.
[01:02:24] Uh, went out in a very different explosiveness, I would say, than, than you did, but still
[01:02:28] going to be, uh, a lot of fun to talk about all of that on the B&B this week.
[01:02:33] I'm covering the Penguin and Battlestar Galacto.
[01:02:36] We're on the scripted side of things.
[01:02:37] I'm, I'm doing, I'm around.
[01:02:38] I'm doing stuff.
[01:02:39] You can check out everything I'm doing at a Mike Bloom type.
[01:02:42] And of course, check out everything going on here on TV for real on We Know Scripted TV.
[01:02:47] As next week, Sasha and I will be back with another reality star talking their taste in
[01:02:52] all things scripted.
[01:02:54] Thank you all so much for listening.
[01:02:56] This was such a great conversation.
[01:02:57] J Maia, thank you so much.
[01:03:00] Truly such a pleasure.
[01:03:01] We'll be back next week for another edition of TV for real.
[01:03:04] Until then, everybody, it's been real.