The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 16: Teeny Chirichillo

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[00:01:58] Hello everyone and welcome to The Pride Has Spoken. I'm Matt Scott, one of your hosts of The Pride Has Spoken. My pronouns are he, him. I am not alone.

[00:02:26] I am joined by the one and only Grace Leader. Grace. Hi, my name is Grace Leader. My pronouns are she, her. I'm so excited to be here, but of course we're not alone. It's three to tango, I believe is how the phrase works. Dr. Evie Jogoda is here too. Hi Evie. What's going on? This is Evie Jogoda. I use they them pronouns and I am so excited for this episode of The Pride Has Spoken

[00:02:51] because we have the one, the only, Teeny from Survivor 47 breaking the internet with how hot and cool and trans he is. And it's just so exciting. And I can't wait to talk to him. Really is. Really broke the internet. Really. Oh my gosh. Yeah, this is thrilling. And I feel like each year with Pride Has Spoken we're like, who are the queer people we'll have on? What are we going to do?

[00:03:16] And then Teeny graced our screens on Survivor 47 similar to Asia. And, but so, so many like such different stories. And I think it's so powerful that we could have this conversation with Teeny or really you two could have this conversation with Teeny behind the scenes. You're here in spirit. You're here in spirit. I am here. I am there in spirit in the conversation. Actually, Matt was there the whole time. He just never spoke, which I thought was rude.

[00:03:42] Yeah, I was just in awe in all of all three of you the whole time. I'm starstruck, actually, but you know, it happens. But here's the thing. You could check out the podcast. There's audio version. Of course, the video version. Check that out on RHAP's YouTube. And what else do we want to plug before we get into this conversation with Teeny? RHAP or Rob is a website.com slash store, I believe. Is that right? Yes.

[00:04:12] Is the place you can go to get the pride of spoken t-shirt or other merchandise that is available. There might still be some buffs left, a TBD, all the proceeds for those will go to a charity. We're still determining which one we should hopefully have an announcement about that soon. I'm still working away at our RHAP, the pride of spoken charity raffle that we'll do as well. And literally, but you know, in the week, there's more people who have agreed to do things. So I'm very excited.

[00:04:42] We have once we have more news about that should be probably by next week. Yeah. And please, if you want to talk about the show, tag us on Instagram and Twitter and blue sky and whatever you're on with the hashtag the pride has spoken. That's the hashtag you should use if you want to write something nice. And if you want to write something mean, don't do that. Get out. Yeah, that's right. Is there anything else we just say? We passing it off? Yeah, I think we should go to the interview.

[00:05:12] Let's get to it. Okay, you and I are back before we actually get to the interview because I do have exciting news about many different things related to the pride of spoken. Let's go. I can't wait. Okay. The first thing is that we have a bunch of new merch options, not just t shirts, but we have a plethora of things that you can buy that has the pride of spoken logo on it. There is an extremely cool bucket hat in the store. And I just want to say, as we all know, bucket hats are back and it's really cool.

[00:05:40] And there's also a dad hat I saw. So whichever kind of hat. There's multiple hats. There's a hoodie. There's a mug. And I believe a bag you can get as well. And then my favorite is that if you, you know, want to maybe already have it, do you have some or whatever you just would like to donate. There are these stickers you could buy. So first of all, cool that there are stickers, but they are also designed in a way that you can sort of like give a donation for the Trevor project or we're supporting me.

[00:06:05] And that's the other, that was the next piece of news I was going to share is that we're donating to the Trevor project this year. But you can buy stickers, I believe at five, 10, 25, 50, I believe are the options. You can buy stickers and you'll just get the stickers, but you'll be donating to the cost. So that's very exciting. And we're donating to the Trevor project, Debbie. Yes. Yes.

[00:06:26] And I know we talked about this on the, on the first one as well, but the Trevor project is an extremely important organization that supports, you know, queer folks in mental health crises and who need support. And it's just like, I can say for myself as someone who's like an adult who has the healthcare that I need is in an extremely queer friendly place. This has been one of the most turbulent mental health times for me this year. Like it's really scary to be trans in America right now.

[00:06:54] And queer people need all the support they can get. And the Trevor project literally is a lifeline for people. And so it means a lot to us that we're able to support this organization. And it means a lot to us. If you buy a hat, buy a sticker, buy a sweatshirt, buy a hoodie, we love to see you at the events and with all your swag. And also to know that every, every dollar that you buy towards that going to the Trevor project is life saving is life saving. Okay. A couple other things.

[00:07:20] If getting new merchandise was not incentive enough to, to, to do that. We also have planned a special auction this year. I guess it's a raffle. It is technically a raffle. Survivor auction is back. Okay. That's right. It's a raffle, but the survivor gay raffle is back. Okay. And what this means is if you buy any pride is spoken, uh, merch, anything, a shirt, a hoodie, a sticker, whatever you buy, each individual thing you buy, you'll be entered into a raffle.

[00:07:46] You're going to get a link to a form that is going to, uh, allow you to check off things that you want to be entered into the raffle for. I know it's a little confusing, but this is the easiest way we could do it. Um, and, uh, we have very cool items, including zoom calls. We're going to have one with you, Matt Scott and myself and a lovely listener who will be able to join. Um, and also I believe the confirmed lineup so far is Franny, Bryce, and Todd. You could win, uh, zoom calls with any of those people.

[00:08:14] And I'm sure we'll have more people that will confirm their availability to zoom call. There were some people who we were wanting and then they were like, I'm going, I'm actually going to go. I'm going to Fiji to play in survivor. And you know, right. Yeah. That's okay. It happens. But like literally Franny, Bryce, and did you say Todd? Those are like three of the best people on earth. I know. So that's really exciting and cool. Yeah. You can win a zoom call with them. If you buy a pride of spoken, uh, merch, you'll get that. Make sure that you check your email for the, uh, link.

[00:08:41] We will send it out like later in the month just to make sure we're getting everybody, uh, who buys an item. And it's all, you only have to buy an item in June that you have to buy it in June. And then all the proceeds go to the pride of spoken. So very, very exciting. I think you also do. You said that those are the three coolest people. The other three cool people are Matt's got you. And yeah, we're going to be on a zoom call as well. You'll basically get to be in your own personal episode of the pride of spoken. So that's true. Um, and I think you said grace.

[00:09:05] So, so that we'll, so basically, so first of all, to clarify, if you buy something in the pride of spoken store, you not only get the thing, but you got to donate money to an amazing organization, the Trevor projects. You got to like save people's lives. So you got a hat and you got to save someone's like three things. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want, you get entered into this, uh, raffle to win one of these zoom calls. And I think you said grace to me before this, that you'll get a form.

[00:09:32] So you can say which of those people, if any, you actually want to be in the raffle. So you don't want to, if that sounds awkward to you, you totally don't have to do it. Yeah. That's right. It's a special, awesome thing. Cause we just really want people to spend as much money as you can in the store. Really. This is such an important cause. Yes. Uh, you'll get a, it'd be the same email that you use to purchase your items. You'll get an email with the, with the form. You fill it out, uh, entered into anything you would like. And then, uh, we'll do the draw towards the end of, uh, at the, uh, probably in July. So that is if people buy it.

[00:10:02] So very, very exciting. And then the last bit of news I have is I'm so appreciative of this, uh, RHP patron named Alyssa who reached out and said, she wants to do something for, uh, both RHP and also was thinking about the pride of spoken and works for an organization that is going to double the donation of any donation that gets made. So Alyssa is making it possible that we are going to double the donation of everything we, uh, donate to the Trevor project this year.

[00:10:27] So I feel like we've like supersized the fundraising efforts in the most exciting way possible. And it, you know, is possible all because of, uh, first of all, everyone who purchases something from the store, these lovely survivor cousins who are, you know, offering up a zoom calls and other things. And then this lovely listener, Alyssa, who reached out to offer to help double the donation. Thank you, Alyssa. That is so cool. That's amazing. Thank you so much. We might just have to like automatically give Alyssa a free zoom call with, uh, with, I think that sounds right. The three of us.

[00:10:58] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So those, those are all the things we wanted to say, uh, before, uh, we get to the interview now, we're going to send it over to this lovely interview that we do with Debbie. So, uh, I keep mixing you up. You'll see it. I do it one time in there. That's hilarious. I'm there too. I'm there too. You are there. Okay. We'll send it over there. Hi, everybody. I so excited, honored, thrilled, ecstatic to welcome to the pride of spoken.

[00:11:26] The one, the only teeny from survivor 47 teeny. I'm so, so, so, so, so glad you're here. I couldn't be more. You are not more excited than me. I promise. I have been very much. So looking forward to this conversation. I am honored to be talking to you, Evie, who I watched my screen, who I got a cameo from when I graduated college. Oh my God. That is amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:11:54] And it's like, so special for me and Grace to get to talk to you teeny. Like, I mean, there've been only a very small number of trans and other gender queer people on survivor. And so it's really so exciting for us to get to have this conversation as three trans people. That's cool. Wow. Taking over the network. Taking over the network. Yeah. Before we dive in quick, quick pronouns check teeny. Last time we talked, you told me he and they are both feeling good. Is that still accurate?

[00:12:24] Okay, great. That's awesome. Okay, great. So everyone you're listening, you got that. Okay, great. So teeny, how are you? I'm doing so good. I moved to a new apartment almost three months ago at this point. I'm really close to the beach. I'm in Asbury Park, New Jersey. For those who know, it is a very queer beach walkable little city. I have these. Jersey Shore. Is that Jersey Shore?

[00:12:52] This falls under the Jersey Shore realm for sure. Nice. It's definitely the gayest branch of the Jersey Shore. So we just celebrated pride here this past weekend. I have, you know, quick access to New York City if I want to go there. Quick access to Philly. But life has been good. You know, I am kind of just like working around here. I've been writing. I wrote an essay for Cosmo. I have another one coming out soon. Wow. That's rad. I've been trying to just do more of that. So life's been good post show. Very relaxing.

[00:13:23] And wonderful. Wow. Okay. I am so excited to hear that you said it's very relaxing. Because what I was going to ask you is, you know, it seems like, you know, in case you've been living under a rock listening to this podcast since, was it maybe like less than a month

[00:13:48] of an amazing photo shoot where you look so cool in Asbury. It's in New Jersey, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was, yeah, I was like, that seemed like that could be a lot. But it seems like you're doing, you're doing good in the aftermath of that. Yeah, I think it's interesting. Like, that's a good point. Like, you would assume that like, coming out in that way would be incredibly overwhelming and you know, a lot. But I actually think like the experience of being on the show and having my publicity

[00:14:17] and my portrayal being like very outside of my hands and was a lot more overwhelming. Whereas this felt like an announcement that I was in complete control of. And also like, something I talked about within it is just that it was getting to be overwhelming to try and exist in a middle space that I didn't fully feel comfortable in. So coming out in this way has been like, just kind of like a homeostasis have been, has been reached. And it's, it's wonderful.

[00:14:47] Putting the homo and homeostasis. That's so amazing to hear and makes a lot of sense also. Um, so okay. Should we roll it back? Like, I think we all the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess like where we typically start is like, uh, people's coming out, which obviously you've just, I mean, as you know, we joke on this podcast all the time about like coming

[00:15:14] out multiple times, but, um, specifically like in terms of, I think the most interesting piece is like, you know, going on survivor, which you do touch upon this in your, in your essay a little bit about like that experience, but like, um, in terms of before going on survivor, like what was your, what was life like for teeny? I'd love to talk about that. Cause I really do feel like I've, I've, I've sort of beaten a dead horse a lot with the, like going on survivor and coming out stories. So we could take this back.

[00:15:40] Like, I mean, when I was a child, I was, I dressed in all boy clothes. I really like, I walked around asking people to call me Zach. Like I, and then not every trans man's experience is this way, but like for me, I think it was very clockable from an early age. And like, even like with my relationship to reality TV, like I really looked up to men on the show. I like really walked around my, my elementary school talking like Eric Stein from big brother.

[00:16:07] And so I think all the signs were there also, like in terms of my sexuality, I always, always just loved women. I had crushes on girls all growing up. So, but I was a very afraid to be othered in school. I didn't want to be seen as a lesbian. And so I kind of hid that part of myself throughout high school and just got very involved in things to try and distract from it. And then my process of coming out as gay was all throughout college.

[00:16:34] Um, and that was just, I don't know how to even explain it. It felt like a tour of just like drunk and telling one person here and there. And then as more people knew, I felt more comfortable in the identity. And I started, you know, embracing dressing the way I wanted to, because I don't know if you could relate to this, Evie, but like for many years when I wasn't presenting as masculine, I just stopped caring altogether about how I sort of looked and I didn't even perceive myself and my body at all.

[00:17:03] And so the process of me coming out and becoming comfortable being gay was helpful in me, like to change my appearance. And then there was a lot of things that happened. I think that like started to make me think about my gender more. Um, and I think one of those, again, it all comes back to reality TV in a big way. Watching RuPaul's Drag Race, which I discovered in COVID, um, exposed me to a lot of like fluidity of like the queens who go on that show and kind of talk about their journey with it.

[00:17:32] And I'm watching, you know, people come out as trans on that show. I'm also feeling like, why do I have a crush on Gigi Good? I thought, you know, I felt a lot of just like fluidity within my own self and my attraction. And, and also, um, I think TikTok was blowing up at this point. I'm seeing a lot of people get top surgery, um, and just getting top surgery and being non-binary, getting top surgery and still identifying as a girl. And it really loosened the reins on how I thought about all that stuff.

[00:18:01] And all these things kind of coming together made me feel like something was going on. But because Survivor was such a big part of my goals, um, I think it was worrisome to me to, to start any sort of process before wanting to get on. Cause I was like, I feel like my chance might be better of getting on if I like fit into this mold, which is kind of just like a lesbian, whatever.

[00:18:27] Um, and, uh, so that's kind of like the, not the long, not short, but yeah, that's kind of the story. I'm Charissa, and my advice to all entrepreneurs start with Shopify successfully. I use Shopify already since the first day. And the platform makes me no problem. I have many problems, but the platform is never one of them. I have the feeling that Shopify has their platform continuously optimised. Everything is super, just, integrated and linkable.

[00:18:57] And the time and the money that I spend with it, can I invest in other ways. Especially in Wachstum. Now, I'm Charissa and my advice to all entrepreneurs start with Shopify successfully. I use Shopify already since the first day. And the platform makes me no problem. I have many problems, but the platform is never one of them. I have the feeling that Shopify has their platform continuously optimised. Everything is super, just, integrated and linkable.

[00:19:25] And the time and the money that I spend with it, can I invest in other ways. Especially in Wachstum. Now, I'm Charissa and my advice to all entrepreneurs start with Shopify successfully. I use Shopify already since the first day. And the platform makes me no problem. I have many problems, but the platform is never one of them. I have the feeling that Shopify has their platform continuously optimised. Everything is super, integrated and linkable.

[00:19:54] And the time and the money that I spend with it, can I invest in other ways.

[00:20:27] In Wachstum. Now, test it free to be free on Shopify.de. There are so many things that you said that are like, oh yeah, for me, like me, it was like, I was like, as soon as I went to university, it was like, yep, okay, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be out as queer. Like, I'm just gonna, but high school was too scary for me to do that. Because like, there's such long connections to people. I was, I also like, you're near your hometown typically. So like being at, is not, so going and like, I moved away and then doing that.

[00:20:55] Um, RuPaul's Drag Race is so important to my like trans experience of like just seeing other people be more themselves. Finding like queerness being a gateway to like transness also. Like, so there's like a million things and I want to just like, you know, hone in. So, but yeah, and I, yeah. And okay. I'll just, I'll just say my, my resonance is as well. Like that. Yeah, there's, there's, and I'm so interested to talk to you. Cause I feel like our, our, our journeys are like similar and different, which I think is really special and cool.

[00:21:23] Um, and like, yeah, so for me, I also have drag race definitely a thing for me, but it was interesting to me is for what's what happens for me. I feel like there was a time period when, before I was really thinking about myself, I felt as, as like trans mass. Cause I feel like I, I definitely, and it sounds like you a bit had this period, but for me, I was, I really was like, I'm non-binary, but I didn't really, I just, but really what I meant was I know I'm not a woman. And I didn't really know what else, but I knew that was the case.

[00:21:52] And for me, that was like a realization that like happened on survivor or like a crystallization that happened on survivor, which I'm sure we can, we'll talk about your, your on Island piece of that. Can I add to is for both of you, was that, is that like, there's a such as, we've talked about over the years of the show. Of labels being so like very nervous about labeling yourself.

[00:22:15] Then they become super important and then become, then they become less important because you're like, Oh, I'm actually not, you know, like, I feel like that's the journey of like rejecting labels. Then like embracing them, then being like, actually, I don't need the labels because actually the labels aren't perfect. But was it such a specific, like something like survivor is so trying to put you in a box that that is then what the thing of you're like, Oh, like, no, like, no, thank you. Or is that it?

[00:22:40] I personally felt that way a bit with regards to like woman-ness where like, I just really found myself because, because I think the thing is like, yeah. When you're talking about labels, it's like survivor, you're literally trying to communicate who you are to like the world that doesn't know you and to the producers and to the casting people. And so you, you inherently do have to have some amount of like, what is my label? What is my box? Okay. I'm teeny. I'm the lesbian, you know, like whether or not that feels true.

[00:23:07] Um, and yeah, for, for me, certainly the, like, I remember really just in the, in like the, the, you film the opening confessionals, like the ones that are like, uh, like that are in the first couple minutes of the episode, you film that before the game starts. And I remember doing that day on like the media day, which they're, I think doing like right now, right now, probably for 50. Um, and being like, there's not been someone like me on survivor before, but I couldn't like articulate what that was.

[00:23:34] I was like, there's not been like a girl in a bow tie. That's what I said. And I was like, Hmm, like what's happening there? Like, I really couldn't like. I really so hard. Media day will forever go down as one of the most like stressful days of my life because of that. I was like, I've, I've waited so long for this and there's so much I do have to say. Um, but even then I felt like I was getting questions and, and, and yeah, it's like when you don't have this specific label, it's really, really, really hard.

[00:24:04] To give like a talk track or a sound bite of like what you are and answer the question more broadly. I think being on the show for me, it really pushed me to evaluate. Like, I think in my life before the show, I had people who I was comfortable who understood that I did not see myself as a girl. And I felt safe with those people and I felt seen by those people, but I still felt like, okay, to exist as a girl to others.

[00:24:32] Cause I had that as kind of a retreat, whereas being on the show and realizing I would be discussed so at large was like, yeah, I don't know if like that's enough anymore. I think I need everyone to kind of get on this page or to begin to understand what this is. Yes. I resonate with that so, so, so deeply because it's like, it's like, yeah, in my world in Boston, it's like everybody. Yeah. Like I'm a girl, but not like that. Like whatever, you know what I mean? Like, and everybody kind of gets it.

[00:24:59] And it's like when people mess up my pronouns, but like, I know they like really know who I am. That matters a lot less than like someone that I know doesn't see me at all and is like seeing me in this totally wrong way. You know? And so like you're saying, yeah. And then you're trying to, you know, that you're going to be discussed by like random people and you hear yourself being discussed and you see it written down and you're like, oh wait, that's not right. And that's very disorienting. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:25:28] And so, and you were, so, and you were kind of like consciously thinking of, of yourself as like, not necessarily as like genderqueer or something like this going into the show. Would you say? Yeah. I was in a relationship in the months that I was like going through casting, which was like very important and huge in just my personal life and like my journey where this, this woman like really, really helped me understand that I was not a cisgender person.

[00:25:58] And that was kind of a big reason why a lot of my relationships prior to that were failing. And this is something I'm, this is a, the essay that I wrote in Cosmo kind of talks about this, the one that's coming out soon. But like, yeah, it was in a relationship where I was really being validated and seen as like a trans man and having so many long conversations about that and having like being referred to in that way. And like in my personal life, that was such a retreat.

[00:26:27] But also like, I did have friends who were still calling me she, her. So it was confusing. I don't know. I went on the show and I was like, I didn't, I knew that I couldn't expect that level of validation from these people who weren't queer women dating a trans man. You know what I mean? Like, you can't, you can't expect that. And that was okay. But then of course the whole piece of like coming home and seeing that a lot of queer people on the internet clocked me before I said anything.

[00:26:54] It was like, wow, like there was a lot more people than just her who can see me in this way. Okay. So this is something I can ask for. This is something that people do already see within me. And that was really healing. And like all of that helped the pieces and the steps come together to be where I am now. There's so much, there's so much in like every single thing you're saying.

[00:27:18] If we could go back to what you said about like your relationships with women were challenging when they weren't seeing you or like when they didn't know that you were trans. Like, could you, could you speak a little more about that? Like what, what was it that kind of caused relationships to, to end? I think it was, I was, you know, in college, I was out as gay and I was very clearly gay. And I was, I went to a big state school. I went to Rutgers, go Rutgers.

[00:27:46] And I was a part of a lot of like the Greek scene. A lot of these girls are straight. A lot of these people are straight, but they knew me to be sort of like the, the token gay person. And so if there was a girl who was like bisexual or questioning or whatever, it's kind of like somebody who, you know, dated some of these girls. And for them, I felt like I was like, this is a trope that goes beyond transness. Like a lot of like lesbians feel like they're experimented with in college, people who are experimenting.

[00:28:14] There's a whole narrative of that happening. But for me, it was like, okay, you're experiencing, you're experimenting with me because I am a woman to you. This is new and you don't know if you actually like men. But I like can only, I feel invalidated because like, I don't actually feel like a girl at all. And so like, it just. And they're maybe saying things like, it's so crazy to be with a woman. Yes, exactly. Like it's so much better. And like part of me though, part of me though would be like, yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:43] It is like fuck men, which we know is my whole thing. But, but I think that was also like internalized transphobia. So there was a lot going on and like intimacy was difficult because I felt like there was a mismatch in like how I perceive myself or how they perceive me. And like, it was incredibly complicated. And it always ended up being becoming so emotionally overwhelming that I would just kind of like shut down and back, back out before I had to like get into it.

[00:29:09] And it also felt like, it also felt frustrating that to be able to really connect with these people, I would have to carry this big responsibility of explaining what dysphoria is and like what I'm thinking to, you know, people who weren't really exposed to that or didn't know what it was. And so when I finally started dating someone who kind of came to me first and was like, I see these things in you. Like that was such a relief to my soul. It's hard to explain. It's, it's a very vulnerable and not everybody gets it.

[00:29:37] And it's really just, it's nice to have somebody who really, really gets it. And that was for a long time. It just wasn't that way. And I don't blame any of those people, but it was just tough. Yeah. That is what it's so, that is, I'm like mind blown of like how, like, I find that like that, I've never thought about that of like the, the, these like people who are trying to explore their sexuality and then finding this in a situation with you or that, that experience is actually invalidating to your identity.

[00:30:07] That is, that is, I've never, I've never thought of that experience. It's like, I really appreciate you like sharing this. I think it's really important. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that response because I wrote an essay about it and I hope many people feel that way. Yeah. I know people will. I know people will. And just to say in general, it's just been like, I, I, like, I know that it's, that, uh, as you said, like, it's so empowering to be able to tell your own story. And just like, it obviously is like, you're putting in a lot of labor on that.

[00:30:35] And I just really know that it matters to so many people reading these things and seeing these things. And it matters to me. And like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's like, it's a total gift to the world. Well, thank you. Yeah. And on this topic of trans dating, I feel like I've, I've experienced both. I feel like I've experienced both some elements of the thing that you were saying of like the, the, like, oh my God, a woman. Like, I definitely like have, there's notes of that in back, in my back of my mind, but I wasn't as like conscious of what was happening with my gender. Maybe when those things were happening.

[00:31:05] But then I've also more recently had the experience where, um, yeah, where like, um, someone who is also in that sort of like self-discovery moment about her sexuality. I feel like because, because that person then is coming from straight dating culture then was like, okay, you're a man and I'm going to treat you like you're a straight man and I'm a straight woman. And we're going to do like straight toxic stuff. You know what I mean? And it's like, that also is really wrong.

[00:31:35] Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's something like validating about it in a way of like, yes, you see my masculinity, but then there's also something really invalidating of like, but I'm to me, at least I'm like, but I'm still like queer. Like, I'm still like, I'm not a man like that. Like I'm, you know what I mean? I'm like a trans mask, queer to me, lesbian dyke, something like all those words still float around that feel way more right than like, just, okay.

[00:31:59] Put on me, like all the things of masculinity as you've been used to experiencing them. But then also like, that's also complicated because also the more masculine I'm perceived by the world, the more I do get some elements of like masculine privilege. Like, it's just so complicated, you know? It really is. It's also like, it's, it's, I feel like I'm experiencing like being like newly kind of out as trans. It is easy to fall into the binary that like we want to work so hard to push against.

[00:32:27] It's like, I don't know, like because I have this newfound freedom and like my identity, I sometimes feel that I am susceptible to like pushing a binary on like a queer partner. And it's like, well, yeah, it's all. But the thing that's good about queer people is that we love to communicate. And so we, I think it's like beautiful to be able to like work through these things together and like talk about it and evolve and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I resonate with that. Go ahead.

[00:32:54] The thing about like binaries and like being, is like the, when you're, especially when you're trying to figure out your identity is this, the idea that, and I remember talking with my therapist once about this. And it was like, we were talking about all these things that sometimes externally people validate you with your identity and you're trying to figure out if then that is actually validating for yourself or it was validating because society is validating.

[00:33:22] Like some random, like your random coworker is being like, you know, that thing about you is what, and you're like, actually, I don't even know if I like this thing about me, but maybe I don't like it because it's, it's like making me stand. Like it's so complicated to figure out when you're exploring, when you're finally trying to figure out your idea, when you're, you're actively trying to explore it and like figure it out and figure out what is actually your identity because of the way in which like it's your own personal. Like you said earlier, like internal is, and then when you have a moment of like, Oh, I don't like this.

[00:33:52] You're like, well, maybe that's internalized transphobia. Like there's so many, it's so complicated to figure out. I don't, I don't know if like sometimes people will understand the amount of like mental, like just work it takes to like exist sometimes and figuring out for like, like, am I happy right now? Like, am I, am I happy with how this is right now? And like, you know, it's very complicated. I think. Well, same with, and just to shout out, I read a lot of, I read a lot of like queer and trans memoir in books.

[00:34:19] There is a book called, uh, on trans and feeling bad. And there's just like, just a brief tag for the book. It's like people, people always say that like, once you, you know, medically transition or once you get top surgery or once you like, you know, go on hormones or once you come out, like it's suddenly going to be like happy. And you've reached this point of euphoria. It's actually like, no, you still feel bad and there's still so many, you know, things to work out. So just to, that's a great book to read if you're figuring things out. No, 1000%.

[00:34:48] And I, I like, I'm like, great. My chest sick. Like, that's great. We figured that out. Now I have all this time to ruminate about other things. I don't like, yeah. Like, and that is just how it goes. I remember actually before I got top surgery thinking like, okay, but if I, yeah, like if I get top surgery, then I'll worry more about my thighs. And then it's like, okay, well, so what? You're not going to get top surgery because then you'll worry about your thighs. Like, okay, next, next you worry about your thighs. You know, that's just like, that's, that's bodies.

[00:35:18] My thing that I've been, I've been trying to figure, and I was thinking about this because I, you know, is, uh, my thing right now is that like, I feel like my trans identity is more of like a, it's not a complete feminine. Identity.

[00:35:31] Like, I don't want to look like super femme, but I, but I can't be like, I'll see sometimes like early, like people who have to, I'll see their like early, like before pictures, before they, and I'm like, that's what I want to look like before they transition is what I want to, is like, I want to look like, but I can't look like that because I'm like, you know, I'm because like, if I just wore the same outfit, people would just clock me as being male, you know? Like very, so complicated. Right. It really is. And I relate to that a lot. Right.

[00:35:59] Which is where it's like, obviously there are women wearing clothes like that, like, like all types of women wearing clothes like that. And people can recognize that, but society. Yeah. Yeah. Society, you know, I really do think that's the problem, you know? Yeah. I mean, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, go ahead. Okay. Okay. Well, I was gonna say, okay, so we got, we, we went all over and around, um, some of the, the pre survivor. And I know you, you have, um, we got all the way to media day, I guess.

[00:36:25] Um, and so like, and I know that you have talked about this in other platforms, but I think, you know, you, you did, it was, it was so. Okay. For me also, as someone that was wrestling with my gender identity privately during the game of survivor, I want to again say how meaningful it was to hear you talking about it publicly in your confessionals. Like literally like while you're doing it, like that is so, so cool. Were you like, how did that feel while that was happening?

[00:36:53] And you're like doing like, and, and like, I know there was like the one confessional when you're like bag was burned. Like I felt like, um, and was that like, was that the one time you really talked about that? How did that feel? Like kind of, did you make a choice at some point to be like, I'm going to talk about this? Yeah. Uh, I think like, so I think that was the one time I talked about it in confessional.

[00:37:15] But I was very open amongst my cast about talking about it, but it was never in such a super profound way. It was always very like them asking me about my pronouns and be kind of brushing it off and saying, I go by whatever. And me explaining top surgery in such a way that it wasn't really, I knew wouldn't be kind of clipped and put in the show. Because you already knew you were going to get it after. Yes.

[00:37:42] I had like an appointment and everything, um, which I'm really grateful for because it made a very, it was able to be something I kind of could just wrap up and tell people, um, to express a lot of what I wasn't able to find words for. Um, like there is just a transness in that. I think a lot of people only know about top surgery through the lens of like someone actively transitioning, but then, you know, everything else I was saying was kind of confusing. So it all kind of worked together.

[00:38:07] And I think, um, but that confessional, I was really upset in the game at that point. I had just lost Saul and it really was a moment where I felt all of the weight of like, what at that point, you know, also there weren't really many queer people left. Andy was there and he's bisexual, but like, it was, it was just this feeling of like, oh my God, I need a gay person so bad. And like, I don't feel good in the game and I feel betrayed.

[00:38:38] And honestly, like if there's ever going to be a time to be open about this, like now's the time. And I'm really glad they put it in the show. Cause like, from what I remember of giving that interview, like it was really fragmented. And I like, just like in media day struggled to get a really articulate point across, even like how I feel like I'm doing now, because I was so confused and I was so concerned about,

[00:39:03] I wanted to be representative for queer people, but I didn't want to do it wrong. I didn't want to be like halfway or half measured about it. Um, and so I remember just walking away from it and being like, I don't, I don't think I even explained that too well. Um, but then watching it back, I'm like, wow, that really was like exactly what I was thinking and feeling and exactly like forever for the rest of my life. When I watched that back, I'll be like, that sums it up.

[00:39:29] Like I was, I didn't know where I fit in and I, you know, it was very, very, very confusing. And it really did come into play in the game at many points. Um, even though overall, I do think being like trans in survivor was actually probably more helpful to me than anything. Um, but how come? Yeah. I think just like being, being trans and having funky gender stuff going on growing up really does just, it changes how you interact with the world and the people around you.

[00:39:59] And I knew like, I, I just always knew like I could get along with straight men incredibly well because some part of me identifies with that identity. I could get along with gay guys super well. I have a lot of gay male friends. Like I just feel a part and sense of myself in everybody. Um, and I also think that like being and appearing different can be a superpower. And like, I don't know, I think all those things together helped me, um, and made me relatable without.

[00:40:28] And I also think that like the stage I was at, um, it was beneficial. Who knows, honestly, like who, who knows how people really would interact with somebody coming on? We, we still have yet. Yes. I was the first openly non-binary person to play the game, but did I say that to my cast members? No. So who knows how that actually would play out? Someone asking to be called specifically they then pronouns without like being on hormones or something. Um, oh damn. I'm like forgetting the point I was making.

[00:40:56] Um, oh, the state you were, I think you were saying like the stage that you were at. Yeah. Yeah. Like the state I was at, like, I wasn't asking, I didn't feel I was asking too much of people where they felt like they were going to fuck up. And so all those things working in conjunction together, I think helped me become like a person embedded into a lot of these people's games and like their relationships and the season at large. I, I want to talk, I want to talk about that piece.

[00:41:21] Cause I, I, in your essay, you do talk about that, about like, if you, this idea that if you're, if you make things too complicated, it actually, it's not about, it was not about how you feel. It was about how other people would feel and then how they, that feeling might cause them to vote you out. But I first want to go back to the thing that I think it's like really interesting and like really powerful, which is the way you talk about, like we have talked on this podcast. I feel like I say it every single time. Creepy people are good at Survivor because what did I say last week?

[00:41:51] It's because we were hyper attuned to our social awareness, something like that. Like we're like walk into a room and like, is it safe? Can I be out? You know, whatever. And I feel like that is a highly transferable skill to Survivor. But I really liked the way in which you were talking about, like how, you know, queer people who have all these different experiences over up through their life and different experiences with gender or sexuality are like highly relatable people because there's a way in which like we are so often othered of people.

[00:42:20] And I love the kind of like the reframing of that to be like, no, I actually can relate to, you know, like I have times where I was like being a total bro with my high school bros because that's who I was trying to be and just trying to be comfortable at the time. So like I've, you know, broed out, you know, hundreds of times probably, you know, and that's not exactly the like the slot I want to fit. But if like you end up like I still have a lot of because of my circle of friends, I still have a lot of those friends. And sometimes, you know, we're like making stupid bro jokes.

[00:42:47] So I love, I like the way of like framing is like actually like there's like a hyper relatable, you know, way about queer and trans people. But yeah, I mean that that piece of not wanting to make other people uncomfortable and then, you know, being in a in a situation that is obviously an outlier in the sense of like, yeah, if you if they don't like if they're so uncomfortable with me, they'll vote me on. I won't be able to win a million dollars is obviously, you know, an extreme situation. But I mean, I and I relate to that so much like that.

[00:43:16] I mean, I can't believe I'm bringing this up because I never want to bring up come on in guys. I would love to never talk about that ever again in my life. But that is why I was like, come on in guys is fine with me because like I felt so much like I don't want to be the like queer person that people are afraid that they're going to get canceled because they like do the wrong thing. You know what I mean? And so I was like, I was like everyone comfortable. And it's like and the truth and also like I'm a guy. So like, obviously, it doesn't bother me.

[00:43:44] Like something that I had to like realize about after. But like I really was like, people are going to think like I only was seeing it through the lens of like, oh, my God, people are going to think that like I'm a scary like what like, you know, the scary, bad, woke, queer person that's going to like you for like saying the wrong thing. And I just want people to be like, Evie's chill, you know? And then you're like doing that in the car. What a cool non-binary person, Evie is. Yeah. Yeah. What a cool little funky little lesbian over there. We don't know what they're up to.

[00:44:16] And it also like did work, honestly. Like I like is the truth is like I do think that ended up being like a thing where people were like, OK, you're like that. You're cool because they did it. They weren't the one who said. Yeah. It's a crazy thing to put the other people at ease and like at the expense of what at the cost of what, you know? And like I think like when I think about I feel the same way of like if I go on the show,

[00:44:45] if I were to ever go back on the show and like I it would bother like I need people to use they them pronouns. Like I am not we're not settling for not. But like what am I going to do? Like I like I do. I do feel like that would make me someone that maybe people don't want to be like worried. You know, like it is stressful. I think, you know, I think because post show everyone on my cast has been nearly flawless in the execution of like adjusting pronouns and being super open minded.

[00:45:15] And so for our cases specifically, I think having it kind of out there would be very helpful from like a cast of production. Like we're in the community. People know at this point. But like I think it's like if you're going into play for the first time, I'm very curious. I don't think anyone is ill intentioned. I just think it's hard. It's it's it's new language. It's it's instinctual at times. And it's like it's a complicated situation.

[00:45:39] And it's one that obviously in a high pressure game where you're being televised, it's it's it feels like the stakes are really high. And for us who were very, you know, confused at that point and not super dead set on it and weren't super like right transition. It was so much easier to one get get ourselves there and to just exist there and kind of just be like, all right, call me she.

[00:46:05] But what I also hope you experience and I did, too, is that like so many queer people watching were like, what the hell? How could these people even have she come out of? I know. And like reference to you like it's it's it is hilarious to think about. It really is. It's. But yeah. Yeah. What I think is I think obviously like I feel like you could, you know, on one hand, you're acknowledging I think that like, yeah, you know, it's the way that it happened at the time and that's what it is.

[00:46:31] And I also think, though, and it feels like and I don't want to put words in your mouth a little bit of like, oh, what if I had have done it? So that like what if I had have been much more? And I think that, yes, I say sometimes like, oh, yeah, you're in this hyper pressure situation of a game where you might win a million dollars. But there are people who people in real in like in real life who make these same decisions all the time. Like this is yes, it's like we're like focused on it. But there's also people who at work who like have the coworker who keeps misgendering them

[00:46:59] and they for their own safety and not wanting to be that person who's creating conflict at work chooses always to let let it, you know, let it happen. Yeah, I mean, I think every single time someone misgenders me, which like happens all the time, it's and like as a people pleaser, you know, now you're stuck between. OK, do I do I feel like shit or do they feel like shit? You know, like or like or do I or do I feel still like shit because I had to say something uncomfortable to my boss, to my coworker? You know what I mean?

[00:47:29] Like that is a constant. It's so much. It's so much. And it's also just like it's also just like I like we aren't the woke police. Like I don't want to be the police. I don't really care that much. It's OK. But then people feel so bad about it. I mean, this is a whole thesis. But yeah, I don't know. It's a point, I think. But I mean, yeah. And I'll just say I if you have a if you have a friend in your life who's using pronouns

[00:47:57] that people are getting wrong, I feel like the coolest thing ever is if you as a friend do a little do a little correction, do a little pull someone aside. I love when people do that for me. So I don't know if that feels nice for you. For you, Tini. Yes. Yeah. You like that, Grace. Yeah. Be an ally. Be an ally of this pride, people. I'm sorry. What were you about to say, Grace? I don't even remember, really. So it's OK. I like leaving it on your point instead. OK, nice. Yeah.

[00:48:24] OK, so and I do want to go going back to some pieces in the game. I really want to I remember and you've talked in some of your essays more about some of this like gender envy stuff with Sam and like and those things. And I honestly don't know that I even heard the word. I think maybe you're the one that taught me the phrase gender envy envy through those things. And I really resonate with it. And like, see, that has been a thing in my life, too. And I just want to call out like specifically the thing I remember listening to.

[00:48:54] Maybe it was like the know-it-alls after the finale or something. And they were talking about how you said the thing of like, Sam was the guy that, you know, the teacher would ask to move the chairs. And I remember Rob being like, yeah, that's bogus. That's a bogus thing that they don't know that thing. Well, yeah, well, and I think I think it just never would occur to him that that's like, cool. You know, I mean, that that's something that you might like want to do. And I just want to like the other day, a special person to me was moving and needed help.

[00:49:24] And like all the trans boys were like, I want to help you move. And like, of course, because like that is a thing that even though that's an objectively bad task, like that's the kind of thing that like we've dreamed our whole lives of people being like, well, obviously you'll be the one to help me move the thing, which I know that there's like queer proms and stuff where people get to go back and like redo their prom as if they're queer.

[00:49:51] We need to do an event that's like just the weirdest little gender stuff from when you were like, you know, in high school that you get to do now in the gender that you actually, you know, would be affirmed by. Like, yeah, you get to move the desk. You get to move the desks. Yeah, exactly. You get to stack the chairs up and put them on the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so, so I don't know. That was a bunch of sentences about that, but I don't know. Is there anything maybe more about the gender envy with Sam or like things that you've been thinking about

[00:50:20] since the show on this topic? Or I just really will say thank you for articulating that because I just do think that is like, yeah, something that I really hadn't thought about so consciously. I think when it comes to this gender envy stuff and with Sam, it was so, it was so real at the time, but the time was literally the freak out, the tantrum where it all kind of came out was really an hour and a half of my life. Right.

[00:50:45] And like really, truly as, as time goes on, I realized how much of that was just such a like reactionary feeling to, to the elements and being, and being hungry. And like, uh, I do know that like the reason why it was Sam who I had the gender envy about versus, you know, like Andy or Saul or anyone is because me and Sam are very similar people and had very similar, like we did similar things growing up.

[00:51:13] And I also, I was like insecure about my place in the game and I had this complicated relate working relationship with Genevieve and I, you know, was seeing like his, his grow stronger with her throughout that. So there was, there was all these different working factors, but like, if anything, it just, it's, it makes me upset that so much of what will be remembered of me for, for so many people

[00:51:38] who watch the show is this rant, because I don't, I don't even believe it. Like, I don't even really feel that way. I don't feel that way with him now. Like, and gender envy is real, but like at this point in my life, it manifests in like, I'm not, my clothes aren't going to fit me. Like they do a six foot person, which to be fair, Sam is six foot. So like, uh, no, it's, it's, I don't know. I think it's what I said, I guess I'm ultimately thankful for because it gave me the vessel to

[00:52:07] own it and, and, and speak to it at the end, which was helpful. And I've received a lot of wonderful feedback from that. And it is very true and it is very true to me. Um, but it like, it frustrates me that like an impulsive reaction that I had to something got me to that place when like so much of the experience really wasn't about that at all. You know, you know, and that's one of those things. I do not think that is going to be the legacy of Teenie on Survivor. You know what I mean?

[00:52:36] Like, yes, maybe in the fight, was that, was that the finale episode or like the one before that or something like that? It was like, the last two episodes were all very bad. Yeah. And that's of course going to be the thing that's freshest on the mind and like whatever, but like, I promise you that is not the thing that people are like going to ultimately be like, Teenie, oh yeah, the one that hated Sam. Like, definitely not. Like your legacy is far beyond that. And your story, even in, even your season was far beyond that. So I, you know, anyone that thinks that doesn't matter, you know, but yeah.

[00:53:05] And I hear that. And like, that is also the other thing with like Survivor in general. Like it always frustrates me when Jeff will say something like, you know, we can have these real conversations here or whatever. And it's like, we're not having real conversations. We're in a game. We are having conversations like in the context of a game, in the context of starving, in the context of our brains, not working to their peak capacity because we're hungry and tired and haven't slept. And like, so like, there's like, if you're trying to like, you know, pin someone down to one

[00:53:34] moment of them on Survivor, like that's never going to, that's not your truest. Like, I think there's a fallacy that that's like your truest self. Like it's might be yourself stripped down in like a very bad moment. And I don't think that's most people's truest self, you know? Yes. And I actually remember there's other points on this. I want to make that I haven't made yet. Something that I was another thing. I feel as though I also can relate to you on not wanting to be considered the woke person,

[00:54:03] not wanting to be kind of like cringe to middle America because I already knew I was going in. And if I did anything wrong, if I slipped up in any way like that, they were going to hate me 20, they were looking for a reason. And so I was angry that I let it slip in that moment because that gave them all the reason that they needed. And I was also very angry because in what I said about him in the heat of the moment was like, you know, he was just like prom king, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:54:31] And it really gave the indication that I was like some weirdo in my life growing up. And I'm like, that's actually not the case at all. Somehow amidst this, like I have like really diminished what I feel proud of, which is that like I have been an incredibly social person despite the adversity of how I've looked and my queerness. And because I had this freak out and like my language wasn't catching up to my brain,

[00:54:55] I've now by myself projected this idea that I'm mad because I had such a like loserish high school experience. And I'm like, no, like that's not the case. I'm like, y'all can be mad at me for saying I hate my goodness and that, but you can't think that. So that is one thing I wanted to speak to as well. Right. Well, and just to say again, it's like, and your story on the show was that everyone loved you the whole time. You know what I mean? Like that. That's like, just like the story was never, there's this loser weirdo, like that step,

[00:55:22] like maybe, maybe, maybe you regret that specific language, but again, like the overall story was nothing like that. And I just really want you to know that. That's good. Thank you. A thousand million percent. Um, I wanted to, as I was thinking about you coming on and then you being here today, like I, and it's going to sound like I'm going to be, but I really don't want it to be like, in terms of like, uh, the type of representation we've had on the, on Survivor and what we could have, because I, you know, I would love for there to be obviously like

[00:55:49] a trans woman on at some point, but the show has, has, is I'm really sure. I want to make sure we've only had like a sort of trans masculine people on the show. And I think that that's just really interesting. And I think it's really, the one thing I really think is great about it is that like, that is not the predominant, uh, you know, trans representation. Um, I do feel like most, most representation, uh, when it comes to, uh, things are, are trans, uh, feminine.

[00:56:17] And so what do you think it is about sort of like Survivor that, that has like made that sort of that, that is the reality of, of trans representation on Survivor? I'm so happy. You, you read my mind to ask this question, because this is something I've been thinking about so, so much. And also I connected with Zeke Smith recently and we had a conversation about this and Zeke made it in a really wonderful and funny comparison in that like RuPaul's Drag Race is the show

[00:56:45] where a lot of, you know, gay men go on and that's the way I identify at the time. And then they kind of go through the experience. Um, and, and Survivor is oddly enough, like the trans man version of that. And I think like a point that we talked about was like drag race is like so high femininity. It's like, exactly. That's what it is. Hyper femininity and like getting dressed up and like what society views as like being

[00:57:10] a woman and Survivor is like rolling around in the mud and like being kind of jungle. I also think like, like, I don't know when I watch old Survivor so, so much of like Ozzy, Ozzy and like his camo shirt and like what he did, like, there's just something so transgender about that. There's something so transgender about like running around in jungle in your underwear and rolling around in the mud and tussling and like being a little scrappy.

[00:57:39] And I think like these themes of like masculinity in our society do play into that. And I also think that it does have to do with the representation that we've gotten. Like, you know, like there have been masculine presenting lesbians and trans Zeke. Like I've been able to see this model of like, oh, this is a type of person that they cast. When I saw Evie, I was like, that is very much how I look, how I present myself to the world.

[00:58:05] Like there is an efficacy model of like, oh, I know I could like go ahead and do this. I also think, I don't know, I think being someone who is socialized as a woman, as a girl, you have a lot of emotional intelligence. And then when you kind of come into your own and you gain this newfound confidence, those are like emotional skill sets and strengths and belief within yourself and overcoming things

[00:58:35] that just give you the oomph to be like, I can do this. This is nothing. So that is kind of my thoughts on that. I'm still reflecting on the parallels of like of drag race and survivor of like drag race is the show. You might come off and it turns out you're a trans woman and survivor is the show. You might come off and it turns out you're a trans man and or trans mask or trans femme in any way of those.

[00:59:04] Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense to me. And like, I think I think and I'll say like, I think a complicated thing for me is coming up also where I'm like, and like women, like fems can play in the dirt and like run around too. And like, I never want to also like invalid, like, like, that's just the thing that I constantly struggle with in myself, where I'm like, I feel this like, um, I feel such a draw towards masculinity. And then that does feel like I'm like, binarizing something. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's just so thank you for saying that.

[00:59:33] No, no, no, but that's, it's not, it's not like a contradiction of what you're saying is just like a impulse. I had that like to call that. We're all going to be like wanting to make sure the things we're saying are not like, because like my thing is like, I don't, I don't, as much as I would want like a trans, a trans woman to be on the show. I also really think it's, it's really good that like the, that it like, cause there is this, there is the, the trans masculine folks have had far less representation in media and on television than, um, trans feminine people. So I think it is also important to acknowledge that like,

[01:00:03] this is not a bad thing that more, um, trans masculine people have been on the show. So the one thing I was going to say is that I do think with like, uh, you know, trans feminine people, there would be a, probably a level of like, um, transition that someone would, would probably have in terms of like laser hair removal and things like that, that people like we might want to, but yeah, it is interesting to be like, otherwise why they have not passed. Or yeah. Or that could be like extremely dysphoric, like, uh, to not have access to, you know, yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:32] Um, but then, but then, you know, and I think, uh, plug for the first season of the pride is spoken where I think like the first guest was Bryce who was like, we need trans women on survivor. I want a beautiful black woman to be on the, like on the strong, like why aren't they on the brawn tribe for like how strong and powerful they are. And then like the next episode of Zeke was like, there should be no more trans people on survivor because it's horrible. And like, and so like, it's just one of those complicated things where it's like,

[01:01:00] yeah, it's amazing to be like representation. And that comes with everything that comes with a being a visible trans or queer or black or, you know, whatever identity you are representing there, you're putting yourself out there to this audience that may or may not be ready for you. Um, and like, I do think it would be like, I, I thought about, you know, like how cool it would be to go back on survivor with my new chest and like how so cool that would be.

[01:01:28] And of course, how absolutely terrifying that would be as well. And like, like in terms of the, you know, America. Um, and yeah, Tini, how has the reception been in general? Like you've been so public recently. Um, are you, are you receiving, uh, mostly love? Are there any stupid people that, you know, you need to. It's been mostly love. I think like, uh, I think, you know,

[01:01:57] it's mostly love on like my feeds and everything because these people are, you know, choosing to follow me anyways. And I think resonate to some degree and support me. Um, but the one place where I received the most hate throughout the season was of course, the Mecca of survivor Reddit. And when I came out, I was very pleasantly surprised to see quite a lot of love from them as well. I think, uh, like my transition, my coming out contextualized for them a lot of like my decisions in the game.

[01:02:24] And it was honestly healing for me to read some of them, uh, like, uh, apologize or own at least like how they jumped at conclusions. Um, I also think there's been a lot of like, yeah, we, we knew we're, we're glad that you, we're glad that you now know as well. Um, but everything has been, you know, lovely, obviously transphobic people exist in way too much in this country. And, but in my communities and the things that I'm seeing, it's been lovely.

[01:02:55] That's a, that is a very nice sentiment for when somebody who does like, when you know, that you're being like, oh, it's like, that's nice that you knew. Sometimes people are wrong. Like I've, I'm guilty of this as much. I'd be like, Oh, I wonder if that person is actually like trans. And then they're not, they're not. So that, you know, um, but, um, I, the one thing I want to, I think that, um, it's not just that I think I, I'm very, I love like you sharing these stories, but you're also, you're just extremely articulate and you're a very good writer.

[01:03:22] And so like your, your pieces are like the, especially the cosmopolitan piece. I'm very excited to see the next one. Cause like the first one is just so well, well written. Um, but, um, yeah, so that's exciting. That's so exciting. Yeah. And I'm so happy for you for, to be receiving that love. And I just also like, I do love the like survivor Reddit nuance. That's, that's like, I, I think it is like funny. Like, yeah, like, like, like I had a lot. So in, in my cast bio, like which, which everyone should know, like the, the words in

[01:03:51] your cast bio, that's part of your application. So you're like, obviously doing the most exaggerated version to get on the show. And I said in my pet peeves that my pet peeve was men, which I stand by. That's hilarious. And, um, but I obviously got so much hate from a lot of people on that. And then, but then as the show went on, I started getting like all these DMS, like, you know, I used to think you sucked and you were a stupid bitch for hating men, but now you're kind of good at survivor. And like, I love that.

[01:04:20] It's like, you could just skip the first part. You know, you just think that up and here, you know, you don't have to send that to me. You're so the same, Evie. Accused of like hating men by them. And it's like, it's also so funny. Cause it's like, I still stand by what I said to, and my rant in many ways, besides love and men are your pet peeve, but like, obviously we have great male friends, right? Obviously like we, it's just funny. Of course. And we're masculine.

[01:04:47] Like, it's like, yes, like, like, dude, I remember in one of my like 12 interviews on exit press day, I think it was with the New York post and, and the interviewer, like very sincerely earnestly was like, so like, do you hate all men? And this is like interview 12, this was interview 12. And I was like, no, like, I don't hate all men. And then the headline was like, Teenie Churchill clears about they do not hate all men. I'm like, this is fucking ridiculous. Oh my God.

[01:05:17] That is so crazy. That is so crazy. Wow. I didn't even realize how much that was a trope for about you. That's really, yes, yes. No, I got plenty of misandrist accusations. Nice. Well, and the truth is you don't even fricking know people cause he's a man. So shut up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Complicated, complicated. Um, okay. Wow.

[01:05:44] And so you've been doing like, how did all this, um, like cosmic, cosmopolitan stuff come out? Like, yeah. What was the, what was the journey towards that? Like, so with that, I literally, uh, I followed the editor in chief of cosmopolitan on Instagram. She is 30 years old. She's incredibly talented, like successful, accomplished writer. Um, and now like editor of Cosmo, which is crazy.

[01:06:10] Um, and it just so happened, like she, you know, had watched the show and we started to communicate and we started talking about like, you know, I was a, you know, a freelance writer. It was my little fucking, oops, sorry. It was my like, you can start laughing at me. You can start laughing at me. You can start laughing at me. You can start laughing at me. Yeah. It was like my, like, hyrox or whatever. Hyrox is not what it's called. Hyrox is that like a partner sport. I don't know what that, Chiron? Is that what it's called? Oh yeah. Chiron. Chiron. Profession? And her, and her girlfriend just did.

[01:06:40] Um, but yeah. Uh, I don't know. I think I like, I like presented myself as a writer on the show. So she knew that. And then she was talking about like, Hey, we should have you do something? And I was like, well, at this time, I'm like, I'm like really, really, really getting ready to like come out as trans. And I was like, well, this sounds like a great opportunity. Like if I can write an essay for them, um, they gave me the option of like, we can have a writer, like interview you, or you can write something.

[01:07:05] And I was like, I can't like turn down the opportunity to write something for Cosmo. Um, and then after that piece, like we've just kind of been in communication and they're doing like a trans, a series of trans writers coming out with essays. Um, it'll come out, I think not this week, but the next week. Uh, and it's like just trans writers writing about like their experiences, love, sex dating. Um, and so yeah, my topic is kind of about, uh, the process of realizing I was trans through,

[01:07:34] throughout dating, um, and throughout like college. Um, but I think there's going to be a lot of other really interesting stories in there. So yeah, I don't know. I have like, I have a lot of ideas of what I want to write in terms of like my transness and my queerness. And I want also like, you know, there's a lot of things that I feel very passionate about, but I don't know exactly the best way to like channel them. And I have a sub stack.

[01:08:01] So I'm thinking, and you know, I have a very good friend who helps me kind of process my ideas. And I'm thinking about like doing like a newsletter, like a weekly newsletter, something of like what I'm wearing, what I'm watching, what I'm reading, uh, what I'm thinking, um, and posting something like that. So that is kind of what's on my mind. And then ultimately the goal is to write a book, but I don't know anyone out there knows anything about that process and wants to help me. Steven Fishback. Where are you?

[01:08:30] It's five months. Where are you? Well, Steven Fishback is writing a novel. I want to write like a bunch of essays, but I'm yes. Steven Fishback hit, hit my line, not to play clock tower, but to talk books. That's hilarious. It's so exciting. It's so cool. I can't wait to see all the, all the stuff that you put out there. And like, I can already say it's been super impactful to me. Uh, the, the first essay. So can't, can't wait for the second one. Um, okay. So we're on the topic, sex and dating, et cetera. What's going on, teeny? Are the DMS open?

[01:09:00] Are they closed? The people need to know. Uh, the DMS are, I mean, the DMS are always open. You can always, yeah. DMS are always open. Um, right now I'm like, I, I don't want to say I'm super single, but like somewhere, somewhere in between, you know, that's a very queer thing. Anyone looks sure. Everyone, everyone's like, yeah. Yeah. And they're going to go on Reddit. The streamer are going to go to Reddit.

[01:09:29] And we're going to be like, we get it. We don't know what's up. Um, but yeah, I don't know. It's, I don't know how to answer that one. Okay. That's great. That's great. Okay. While you're blushing from that, I'll just say one thing related to, uh, to, uh, dating and stuff like that, where I, I feel like that maybe this is the kind of thing that you'll be timing your piece where like, I feel like the first time I kissed a girl, which was like the most exciting moment of my life. Like still probably still number one.

[01:09:57] I mean, life, life changing, life changing. And I just felt so clearly like the thing that like, I mean, a lot of things like, oh, that's what desire is. That's cool. Didn't realize I didn't know what that was. Um, but, but like, yeah, like, oh, that, yeah. You don't have to like, think about it. It just is happening. And you just feel that. Oh, that's cool. But then like, also like, I really had this feeling of like, I am playing a different role in this kiss than I normally play.

[01:10:26] And that, that feeling like, whoa, a huge shift that I didn't realize how much was gender and how much sexuality it was sexuality because I mean, they were both exploding. Um, but it makes, it's like, yeah, you learn about yourself through your interactions with other people and like through the way they relate to you and the way, you know, and it's just like, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's complicated. I, I can't, I can't wait to hear what you, what you have to say about it. Yeah.

[01:10:53] I mean, I think I definitely like at this point, like, I mean, it's very clear, like I am out as a trans man. So it's very clear. I couldn't date anyone who couldn't see me that way. But like, there was a kind of like, there was a period of time where like after the girl who I talked about earlier, who was like very instrumental in like helping me understand, I kind of dated somebody else who wasn't as with it. And I, and, and that was like a very defining experience. Cause I was like, okay, I literally physically cannot be with someone who like does not get this.

[01:11:23] And it is so crucial to being trans or non-binary, anything to have like a partner who is not only like understanding, but is like very down for it and about it. Um, and yeah, so that is very much what I look for and what I've really appreciated of like partners I've had in the past. And I'll say, I feel like a simple tip if you're trying, is like, if you're trying to date someone with that identity and are like maybe a little more unsure, like maybe ask

[01:11:51] them, like, how do you like to refer to your body in these ways? What are adjectives that feel good? Like does handsome feel good? Like these simple things were like, actually might not even occur to you to like, it might not even occur to you as the trans person to like ask for that, but to have someone be like, open it up of like, how do you like, what do you like to call that part of your body is like, Oh, there's options.

[01:12:17] Like, you know, like, and that can just be like, so, so, so, so, so affirming. That's such a, such a wonderful tip because it really is like, it's a lot to get back out there into dating. It's a lot to like, I don't know, like even, even thinking about like, if I were to go on a dating app at this point, it's like, well, I have only really been with queer women, but now I'm a trans man. So what do I classify under? Cause I don't want to be like deceit, like deceiving people. Norm's is just partner.

[01:12:47] I hate my roommate's home. What up, Julia? Hi, Julia. Julia. It's hard. It's hard. I feel like, yeah. Dating apps are very complicated because you, I mean, there's a thing about being trans that there's a vulnerableness to, and literally like a safety thing to it as well. But there's also just this thing of like, yeah, the, the, the apps are so binary. So then that like, you know, they only, they work the way they work.

[01:13:16] And it's like, that doesn't always work for me. Right. And it's also like, I want to like, you want to be able to have like flirty bench or small talk or whatever, but it's also like, I need to know that you're, you're actually down for like these important things. And like you said, like this language and like, that's kind of like a mood killer if you're throwing that out from the very beginning. So I don't know. It's, it's, it's complicated. Yeah. Well, it can, and it can't. I mean, I think it's, I think it's like that with like consent also, or like, if you're

[01:13:45] like, like, is this okay if I do this thing that can be like awkward, but if you're like, you're so hot, I want to do this to you. Can I do this to you? Like, you know what I mean? That's cool. So like, similarly being like, I need you to say this might not be as good as like, don't you think I'm so handsome? Like, you know what I mean? Like, or like whatever. And you start like modeling that stuff. So anyway, some people are turned on by the robot voice. Oh yeah. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to kink shame. Totally. I mean, it was working for me. Yeah.

[01:14:16] We typically have, sorry, team, we typically have a couple. See, I mixed you two up. Oh, we're all the same. We're monolithic. We typically, two of our last questions. So one is like, what are you going to do for pride? Do you have any pride plans for the month of June? Well, so pride in Asbury, where I live was just this past weekend on Sunday. So honestly, while the parade was passing by on the street, I was actually playing big mother, which is a virtual version of big brother.

[01:14:46] It was benefit for shut up queen who is a drag queen in Chicago. And I felt like that was still doing my part because I actually played, I played with Izzy from big brother. Willow pill from dry grace, who is legitimately one of my heroes and my favorite drag queen of all time. So that was incredible. But I did self evict at the final eight. So I could go celebrate. Yeah. And so, yeah, I celebrated that. I don't know.

[01:15:15] I think I'll be trying to, you know, I'll just be living my, I'll be revolting by living my trans life. I think I'll probably celebrate New York City pride. I have obviously a few things. I have the Cosmo article coming out soon. I have like a conversation me and Zeke did coming out soon. Oh, no way. That's so exciting. That's so good. And then hopefully I will kick myself into gear and start publishing this newsletter,

[01:15:43] which will be, you know, very queer as everything I do is. That's so exciting, Teenie. Such amazing stuff coming up. Obviously the main thing doing this podcast also. So, yeah. This is huge. Dude, it's so. It's my favorite podcast on the RHAB network. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm sure you tell that to all your podcasts. No, you don't. That's special. That's special, man. Thank you. Grace, what was the other question?

[01:16:13] We typically ask people to give like a shout out, like say something to queer LGBTQ fans of Survivor, of you. We just give you sort of the last word to say whatever you would want to say to those people. Well, first of all, to anyone queer and anyone who watches Survivor, I am you. I will always be you. Like you.

[01:16:37] One, are very lucky to have the reality TV sphere and this podcast, this like specific light on the queer people who go on the show. So, having reality TV and Survivor is like one of the most important things that literally ever happened to my life. So, one, appreciate however it is and whoever showed you it. Appreciate that.

[01:16:57] And two, I think my like practical advice for anyone queer is like, something that always really, really helped me is, like I said, watching and being exposed to more queer identities is the most helpful thing that ever happened to me. Whether that be through reading trans and queer memoirs and essays and their stories and seeing myself in bits and pieces of that. Or like watching Drag Race opening my eyes to so many different aspects of my own gender and sexuality.

[01:17:25] And like seeing people on Survivor, like just the more exposure you have to different queerness, the more comfortable and confident and like introspective you can be about yourself. And also, like if you're queer and you want to go on Survivor, it is possible. And also reach out to me and Evie too, if you relate to anything that we're saying. Because there is so much more that is like left to be desired from the queer representation on the show.

[01:17:52] Like be it trans women, be it somebody non-binary who really does go in and demand like, I want to be referred to by the pronouns that make me feel good. Like there's so much we have yet to see that I'm excited for. And that isn't, not to be like this, but that is in the hands of you. That is in the hands of you guys. So that is my piece, I'd say. That was really wonderful, Tini. And I just, I can't end it without saying like, I am a huge fan of yours.

[01:18:19] And like, I am just like, literally like you being on the show, everything you've done since the show has been so, so, so impactful for me and so wonderful to see. And I just feel a lot less alone that you exist. And like, I just, you've taught me so much. And I know that's, you know, I'm one of the millions of fans of yours. So. Well, it's very mutual, Evie. Like, clearly seeing you on the show was like a model for me to believe one that I could do it.

[01:18:47] And was like, also one of the first experiences I got to see myself on the show. And so it is very mutual. And you're, I'm so glad that you do this too. This is another thing, like, to be able to spearhead this podcast, which is like the dream of any queer survivor fan to get to this podcast. It really is. It really is. It's something that I aspired to be on before playing it. I was like, oh, if I go on the show, I get to be on this podcast. So this is like making a, you know, a part of my dream come true as well. Oh, well, thank you, Tini. It wouldn't be an episode of The Pride is Spoken if we didn't end.

[01:19:16] I was being like, we love you, we love you, we love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I could go on and on with you guys. So if you ever want to have me back, I'd love to talk more. Yeah. Yeah. This is a very gay trans episode. Thank you so much for listening. My name is Grace Leader. You can find me on social media at Hi From Grace or at Go From Grace. And I'm Evie Jigoda. You can find me on Instagram at Evie Jag and on TikTok with the account name Evie from Survivor.

[01:19:44] And I'm Matt Scott. You can find me at MattScottGW on all platforms. And this is The Pride has Spoken. This is The Pride has Spoken. That was pretty good. Yeah.

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