Kellyn Bechtold: Do It Scared | Pod Friends

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, Rob here getting you ready with a special presentation of Pod Friends. Brand new season kicks off. Matt Scott is back to be talking with different voices from the RHAP community. In this series, Matt does a really great job of giving you a little bit of a different look at some of the people that you may know very well from our RHAP community, whether they're survivor players, podcasters, people that work on RHAP.

[00:00:29] They're all different people that play an important part in what we do here at RHAP. Matt Scott is letting you hear from them, maybe in a different way than you've heard from them before. It's a really great show. I'm very proud of the work that Matt does here on Pod Friends. Make sure you don't miss any of the great interviews that Matt is doing this season. We have a link to subscribe. It's BeAPodFriend.com.

[00:00:57] That's BeAPodFriend.com to get everything Matt Scott is doing here on Pod Friends. And I'm very excited for you to hear the premiere of the new season of Pod Friends where Matt talks with my great friend from Survivor Ghost Island, Kellyn Bechtold. Enjoy.

[00:01:16] All right, Kellyn. Why should people listen to this episode of Pod Friends featuring you?

[00:01:23] Hey, everybody. This is Kellyn. Everyone should. Who is interested? No one should do anything. Anyone who wants to listen could listen to the idea that Matt is an incredible container creator and space holder for the people that Matt interviews.

[00:01:39] So this is every conversation is a listen because of that.

[00:01:43] This one in particular is for people who just have an inkling that saying yes to adventure and saying yes to something sight unseen that is exciting and wonders what it's like to take steps to get there.

[00:01:57] Might enjoy this conversation.

[00:02:51] Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new season of Pod Friends.

[00:02:56] Happy New Year.

[00:02:57] My name is Matt Scott, and I'm so thrilled to be here with you to be joined by you really for a new season of Pod Friends.

[00:03:05] While there's so much that I want to tell you about in this intro, including how you could leave a voicemail, including a cameo in this episode, including some of the upcoming episodes of Pod Friends, and including a patron exclusive called 15 Minutes with Friends, which you should check out.

[00:03:22] If you do want to skip ahead to the interview directly, just skip ahead about seven minutes.

[00:03:27] I'm just so thankful for all of you and for being part of the evolution of Pod Friends.

[00:03:33] I started this a few years ago at this point, which is so hard to believe.

[00:03:37] And so many conversations later, not only on the podcast, but at RHAP live shows to date.

[00:03:45] This show means so much to me.

[00:03:47] You all mean so much to me.

[00:03:49] And as we start out the year, I want to ask you, how are you doing?

[00:03:57] I'm listening.

[00:03:58] I'm here.

[00:04:00] I'm sure I'll learn more about it at some of the RHAP live shows coming up this year.

[00:04:06] And we're doing only, you know, a few things differently.

[00:04:10] Same old Pod Friends, different life, new guests this season.

[00:04:13] Going to be really thrilling.

[00:04:15] And I could share already.

[00:04:16] We have like a couple of really exciting guests lined up, even more coming, more interviews that I need to record.

[00:04:22] But I'll tell you about two of them.

[00:04:24] One of them, speaking of RHAP live shows behind the scenes, getting people to getting to know the people behind the mic.

[00:04:32] Easy for me to say is the one and only Sam Moore, executive producer of RHAP is going to be on the show.

[00:04:43] Listen to that.

[00:04:44] And just to keep going a bit, another person.

[00:04:49] And you'll also see her this season, this winter on The Traitors, season three.

[00:04:57] The one and only Carolyn Weeger of Survivor 44.

[00:05:01] So I'm really excited for the conversations coming up.

[00:05:05] So many more that I think you'll be really thrilled to hear.

[00:05:07] And they go deep.

[00:05:08] They go places.

[00:05:09] But I want to talk about Kellen for a second because Kellen is such a great person to start this year off with, to start Pod Friends off with.

[00:05:17] Because there's this idea, this theme of doing it scared that comes up time and time and time again in this conversation.

[00:05:25] So you not only learn about Kellen's story, of course, beyond Survivor Goes to Islands, but you hear so much about her journey.

[00:05:33] You hear me gasp a number of times.

[00:05:35] You hear about her starting the Road to Reality podcast here on RHAP, which I hope you'll check out.

[00:05:40] And that was one reason I wanted Kellen to be the season premiere, interviewer to interviewer.

[00:05:45] Because a few years ago, I interviewed Taryn Armstrong with The Taryn Show, interviewing people here on the RHAP network before I was doing it.

[00:05:53] And it's so cool to talk with Kellen and to dive in with her and just to hear about ways that she's done it scared to live her journey, you know, to hear everything that she's been through in life, the ups and the downs.

[00:06:08] And her evolution, which I think is so phenomenal.

[00:06:11] We all evolve.

[00:06:12] I want to thank you all for being part of my evolution.

[00:06:15] And it's amazing that we get to hear Kellen's evolution a bit.

[00:06:20] So, it's a new year.

[00:06:21] And we're also doing new things on the podcast.

[00:06:24] One thing I want to encourage you to do is to check out the Patreon for RHAP, RobHisWebsite.com, slash Patreon.

[00:06:31] Because for the first time, we're premiering a new segment on PodFriends for PodFriends called 15 Minutes with Friends.

[00:06:39] And it's an opportunity for you to listen to just an extended 15-minute conversation rapid fire with me and the guest.

[00:06:51] Trying this out with a few guests.

[00:06:53] Curious to hear your thoughts.

[00:06:54] And you can check it out over on Patreon for RobHisPodcast.

[00:06:58] Again, RobHisWebsite.com, slash Patreon.

[00:07:02] Or I believe you can go to Patreon.com, slash RHAP, and subscribe.

[00:07:06] This should be available even on the free tier Patreon.

[00:07:11] So, you don't even need to pay.

[00:07:12] But hopefully you do pay and support the folks on this network, including me and Kellen.

[00:07:18] So, so much to get to in this conversation.

[00:07:21] But I mentioned the Patreon already.

[00:07:23] Join that.

[00:07:24] Become a patron.

[00:07:26] You get exclusive content from RHAP.

[00:07:28] You get early access to live shows and tickets for those.

[00:07:31] Which I've been to most of the live shows that have happened in the last few years.

[00:07:36] Actually, I think I've been to all of them except for one in the last few years.

[00:07:40] And it's such a great opportunity to meet you all, connect with you all.

[00:07:43] And so I hope that you'll become a patron to get early access to those tickets when those live shows are announced for 2025.

[00:07:52] And I also want to just encourage you, beginning with this episode, even before you listen to the episode if you want, to leave a voicemail.

[00:08:02] I love your voicemails.

[00:08:03] They warm my heart.

[00:08:04] They make me cry.

[00:08:05] It's really special to hear from you and to turn this into a two-way conversation, which is part of why I love the live events and meeting you all there.

[00:08:14] But you could submit a voicemail at speakpipe.com slash podfriends.

[00:08:20] That's speakpipe.com slash podfriends.

[00:08:22] And that's one way that you could let me know what you're thinking, what podfriends means to you, your reflections on it, any episodes or conversations or talking points that have jumped out for you.

[00:08:33] You could leave that about Kellen's episode or a future episode or a past episode, whatever it is.

[00:08:38] And never hesitate to go back and listen to past episodes of Podfriends because there are so many that you could check out.

[00:08:44] Before we get into it, I just want to mention that there is a very special cameo by the one and only HGTV host, Extreme Makeover, Home Edition co-host,

[00:08:58] Bryce and Wen present co-creator and Survivor Ghost Island winner, Wendell Holland, making an appearance and asking a question to Kellen.

[00:09:06] I just love integrating something fun like that.

[00:09:10] I know you'll hear that type of thing in a couple of episodes coming up.

[00:09:13] And so hope that you enjoy also hearing from Wendell here.

[00:09:17] But without further ado, here is my conversation with Kellen.

[00:09:28] Making her way to the podcast.

[00:09:32] She's tailing from Indiana by way of Chicago and Denver and Spain and Fiji and so many more places on her journey.

[00:09:39] She is empathetic.

[00:09:42] She is effervescent.

[00:09:43] She is exciting.

[00:09:45] And empathy is her superpower.

[00:09:47] You know her as being Navidi Strong.

[00:09:49] But she's also a career counselor turned founder of the Career Coven.

[00:09:55] And the host of the Road to Reality podcast here on RHAP.

[00:10:00] Please welcome the one, the only, Kellen Bechtel.

[00:10:11] We're here.

[00:10:12] We're doing it.

[00:10:13] You have your coffee.

[00:10:13] Do you have your coffee?

[00:10:14] I have my coffee.

[00:10:16] I have my water.

[00:10:17] We have my drinks.

[00:10:19] I'm all set.

[00:10:19] Cheers.

[00:10:20] Cheers.

[00:10:20] We are ready.

[00:10:21] Ready for a good conversation today.

[00:10:23] I was going to say, I know this is mostly an audio medium, but I appreciate your like sweater mug combination.

[00:10:30] We have the sweater mug thing going on.

[00:10:32] Oh, look at us.

[00:10:32] I'm in the green colors today and you're in the yellow matchy.

[00:10:37] Yeah.

[00:10:37] On brand.

[00:10:38] Definitely.

[00:10:39] So it goes together.

[00:10:41] It works.

[00:10:41] But I am like, actually before I even get into anything else, are you a coffee, like normally a coffee person?

[00:10:48] I try not to drink coffee, but since it's Friday and I'm doing a podcast, I get to have one.

[00:10:54] The people will appreciate it.

[00:10:56] It's for the people.

[00:10:57] It's for the RHAP community.

[00:10:59] You're taking this out.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:02] Just keep it up a notch.

[00:11:03] I love it.

[00:11:04] I have to say though, and I don't like to, I don't like to date the podcast at all.

[00:11:09] Just like Road to Reality.

[00:11:10] I love for it to be evergreen, but I have to say it is for a Friday the 13th.

[00:11:16] I'm not even going to name the month.

[00:11:17] Just keep it that evergreen.

[00:11:19] But Kellan, are you like a superstitious or I've heard you refer to yourself on Road to Reality as witchy.

[00:11:28] And so I feel like I have to acknowledge that it's Friday the 13th.

[00:11:32] I don't know if this means anything to you.

[00:11:34] Like you're not stepping on cracks or anything like that.

[00:11:36] It's so fun.

[00:11:39] I can go in and out of those, like not stepping in on cracks thing.

[00:11:44] I would say oddly, and maybe this is in my witchiness, like Friday the 13th seems like good luck to me.

[00:11:50] When you just reminded me it is Friday the 13th.

[00:11:53] I was like, oh yeah, the Powerball is really high right now.

[00:11:57] It is Friday the 13th.

[00:11:58] I need to go buy that lottery ticket.

[00:12:00] It feels more like good luck day instead of bad luck day.

[00:12:03] Yeah.

[00:12:04] Like it's a world in which, you know, if other people are running scared, then I can actually be in front.

[00:12:10] You know, that's how I feel a little bit on days like Friday the 13th.

[00:12:14] Not to like make that into something that's way deeper than it is.

[00:12:17] But I feel like that is like a deep life philosophy thing.

[00:12:21] When everyone else is terrified, hiding under their covers.

[00:12:24] It sounds like you're just going for it.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] I mean, that tends to be a theme that you're pointing out to me that is happening right now.

[00:12:35] I'm actually posting an event in a week called Doing It Scared about like leaving corporate and starting your own thing,

[00:12:43] even though you're scared because like the right moment.

[00:12:46] It's I'm child free by choice.

[00:12:49] But, you know, when people say to other people, oh, you'll never be ready to have kids.

[00:12:53] But, you know, you'll just become a parent that that for me is like you'll never be ready to think that you're like the CEO of your own life.

[00:13:01] But you already are.

[00:13:02] So just go for it.

[00:13:03] So that like kind of being scared and doing it anyway does seem to be a bit of what's going on.

[00:13:10] And Friday the 13th, what better day is there to host this conversation?

[00:13:14] I mean, I feel like Friday the 13th is good.

[00:13:17] I feel like New Year's Day would be a good day.

[00:13:19] I'm just going to say and I'm calling my shot right now, Kellen.

[00:13:23] Like if this conversation were a disaster, this is going to be the season premiere of Pod Friends.

[00:13:29] Like the first episode coming out within a week of the new year.

[00:13:33] No pressure.

[00:13:33] I know it's a lot of weight to it.

[00:13:36] But I feel like with that in mind, that's also a good time just to have that conversation because, yeah, new beginnings could be scary.

[00:13:47] Starting things, taking leaps can be scary and yet less scary when there are people walking you through that process.

[00:13:55] Right.

[00:13:55] Right.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:56] And just other people who are on the journey with you.

[00:14:00] Like here we are two podcast hosts together, like on either side of the screen.

[00:14:05] And there's a sense of camaraderie and like we know each other.

[00:14:10] And it just when you find the people who are doing the things that you want to be doing at the same stage you're doing them.

[00:14:17] I think that might just be the key to have things go a little more smoothly and to like just hoist up your bravery a little bit with the people around you.

[00:14:28] I love that.

[00:14:29] And I want to ask before like getting into just more of who you are, because I'm hoping everyone like already knows who you are.

[00:14:37] I'm sure there will be some people who are just getting to know you, of course.

[00:14:40] You know what?

[00:14:40] I can go anonymously to like Bryce and Wynnevins.

[00:14:44] Like people don't know who I am.

[00:14:46] I'm older now.

[00:14:46] I'm eight years older.

[00:14:49] You know, since I played, well, 2017.

[00:14:52] Is that the right math?

[00:14:53] Seven years?

[00:14:54] 2017 to 20, 25.

[00:14:55] Well, depending on when they listen to it.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:58] Sure.

[00:14:58] That works too.

[00:14:59] Yeah.

[00:15:00] So I was on the show eight years ago.

[00:15:02] So I don't look the same as I did eight years ago.

[00:15:05] I have different hair, different.

[00:15:06] I mean, my whole entire life looks different.

[00:15:08] My soul looks different, I think, than it did eight years ago.

[00:15:11] So yeah, I'm Kellen Bechdold.

[00:15:13] I was on season 36, Ghost Island of Survivor.

[00:15:21] I am originally, is that what you're hoping for?

[00:15:23] You want to go into like where I am?

[00:15:26] Yeah.

[00:15:26] So I'm originally from a chicken farm in Indiana.

[00:15:29] Oh my gosh.

[00:15:30] I grew up in the middle of this tiny, tiny town in Northern Indiana, out on the farm.

[00:15:38] And like at the time, 300,000 chickens.

[00:15:42] There's a lot more now.

[00:15:44] Not on your farm.

[00:15:46] Yeah.

[00:15:46] What?

[00:15:47] On our farm.

[00:15:48] What?

[00:15:48] Wait.

[00:15:50] Hold on.

[00:15:52] As a, I am from the Garden State of New Jersey, initially living in the beautiful city of

[00:15:57] Washington, D.C.

[00:15:59] I didn't realize.

[00:16:01] What?

[00:16:01] Hold on.

[00:16:02] My, I think my brain broke or my mic is, my headphones aren't working.

[00:16:06] I think everyone's with 300,000 chickens on your chicken farm.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:12] Yes.

[00:16:12] That's, that is correct.

[00:16:13] Your ears were working.

[00:16:14] How do you?

[00:16:17] I don't even understand anything anymore.

[00:16:20] Well, okay.

[00:16:22] So what part was, is it, is the brain breaking because just like in general that, that are

[00:16:27] that many chickens in one place?

[00:16:29] Yes.

[00:16:30] Yeah.

[00:16:30] Yeah.

[00:16:31] Actually, there's about two or three times that now on our farm.

[00:16:34] It's grown a lot since I was a little kid.

[00:16:36] My dad and my mom and now my brother have worked to build a very successful business.

[00:16:43] Good for them.

[00:16:45] Um, and yeah, it is.

[00:16:48] So they are, it's like they're in industrial, they are in a big long barn.

[00:16:54] That's like the length of a football field.

[00:16:55] We have quite a few of those.

[00:16:56] So it is an industrial business.

[00:16:59] It's not like we were like going out to the backyard and.

[00:17:02] Yeah.

[00:17:03] We were like running around our yard.

[00:17:05] It's not like you, I'm guessing you didn't name all of them.

[00:17:08] No, I tried when I was first a little kid, you know, there would be like one, one group

[00:17:12] of them that I would really want to name, but yeah, you kind of grow out of that.

[00:17:16] So yes, industrial farming and is where I came from.

[00:17:20] Um, I mean, I feel like Indiana is just like, I'm living here now actually back to Indiana.

[00:17:26] I never thought I would ever be.

[00:17:29] Um, but yeah, that's where I came from.

[00:17:31] Small town girl, small town world at the beginning.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:36] I mean, I guess like what's been at least from the journey in terms of where you've lived,

[00:17:42] you start in Indiana and then where were the different like stops on the journey back

[00:17:47] to Indiana now?

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:48] Okay.

[00:17:48] So I went to Indiana university in Bloomington.

[00:17:52] So I stayed in Bloomington, but I mean, or in Indiana, but that was,

[00:17:56] the town I grew up in was about five, 6,000 people.

[00:17:59] And then Indiana university, the college itself has like 40,000 students or something.

[00:18:04] So I went to a school that had do the math that many times more people in it than my whole

[00:18:10] town growing up.

[00:18:11] Um, I was there for three and a half years.

[00:18:14] I graduated early, which is like the silliest thing I ever did was cut myself short of an

[00:18:19] extra semester of being in college.

[00:18:22] Cause I loved being there.

[00:18:23] It seems like a good idea at the, at the time I'm, I'm sure, especially because like

[00:18:28] college is often expensive depending on where you go and all the other, but you know, I,

[00:18:35] I mean, it sounds like you wish you could have spent a little bit more time there.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:39] I think, well, I think it's just, I ended up actually getting an, um, internship on Sanibel

[00:18:45] Island in Florida and I went and lived on the ding darling wildlife refuge.

[00:18:50] And I worked for the Sanibel Captiva conservation foundation.

[00:18:53] And I was essentially a landscaper.

[00:18:56] Um, I was an environmental management major in undergrad and I thought I wanted to be an

[00:19:00] environmental lawyer like Aaron Brockovich without tits is what I always said was my dream.

[00:19:05] Um, cause I still don't have those.

[00:19:07] Um, and I went, so it was kind of like the only like environmental type thing I could,

[00:19:17] I could really find at the time internship.

[00:19:19] I graduated in December of 2008, which young folks like you don't even remember that.

[00:19:24] That was the, how old do you think I am?

[00:19:27] Um, I remember I, uh, I remember I was, I was, uh, I think a junior in seven 32.

[00:19:34] I think I was like a junior in high school.

[00:19:37] And that happened.

[00:19:37] I didn't have to deal with like the, as not, I actually, I'm not going to split.

[00:19:42] I'm going to let you continue your story, but for the even younger folks, watch me,

[00:19:47] watch me distancing myself from them.

[00:19:50] Uh, but yeah, there were some things that happened in our economy.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:56] Yeah.

[00:19:56] That meant that I can remember the people a year older than me were getting like flown

[00:20:02] to Texas and flown to California for interviews.

[00:20:05] Like this is what the world was like when I was a sophomore in college, the juniors ahead

[00:20:10] of me were getting flown out for interviews to all these places, banks and all this stuff.

[00:20:15] And then by the time I graduated in 2008, everything was shutting down.

[00:20:19] The, the crash had happened and, um, places were not hiring.

[00:20:25] And so I just was like, I'm going to go get experience.

[00:20:29] I went to Sanibel Island.

[00:20:31] I'm like, what else is there to do other than go live on an Island for a while?

[00:20:35] It was like in a, um, a raised, um, trailer, like an old kind of like what you would see

[00:20:42] at a construction site, you know, they have like this temporary, but it was raised in the

[00:20:47] jungle.

[00:20:49] I mean, there were snakes in my kitchen when I came home for lunch.

[00:20:53] There were my roommate, Jackie at the time we got woken up in the middle of the night.

[00:20:58] She was screaming because a rat had crawled into her bed and up her shirt.

[00:21:02] Um, these, this is my first, this is my first adventure in living on an Island.

[00:21:09] I actually talked about this experience in my audition video saying I had an Island living

[00:21:13] experience.

[00:21:14] What else could we possibly need?

[00:21:16] So I went and did that landscaping.

[00:21:19] I worked at a grocery store in the evening and it was so fun.

[00:21:22] I was making no money and having an absolute blast.

[00:21:26] Um, I went to Europe for the first time.

[00:21:29] I saved up all of that money while I was there for those six months, my internship and working

[00:21:34] 80 hours a week.

[00:21:35] I got paid $200 a week for my internship.

[00:21:38] Um, and then I was making whatever, you know, $8 an hour at the grocery store.

[00:21:43] I loved looking at the grocery store.

[00:21:45] One of my favorite jobs ever.

[00:21:47] Um, and this is crazy.

[00:21:50] I don't even know why I'm telling this part, but I, there was a local bank, like the Sanibel

[00:21:55] Island bank.

[00:21:56] I won't say which one.

[00:21:57] And the CEO of the bank was like, um, obviously I'm sure he donated money to the, the foundation

[00:22:06] that I was volunteering for.

[00:22:08] And so he was around and like, I was telling him, I guess, uh, I wanted to save up money.

[00:22:13] I was going to go to Europe.

[00:22:15] This is what I was doing.

[00:22:17] He called me into his office one day and was like, I have a, I know, I know.

[00:22:21] Oh, right.

[00:22:22] And so I look back on it and I'm like, was this an uh-oh moment?

[00:22:26] He was like, I will loan you.

[00:22:28] I believe in you.

[00:22:29] I know how hard you're working.

[00:22:31] You are working 40 hours a week, landscaping all day in the hot Florida sun.

[00:22:35] And then going and working, I was working 32 hours a week on top of it at the grocery

[00:22:38] store.

[00:22:39] Right.

[00:22:39] And I was just like, I don't know.

[00:22:41] This is, I think I've saved like $3,800 to go to Europe.

[00:22:44] He's like, you're going to need, you're gonna need more money than that.

[00:22:46] I will loan you $5,000 from the bank with a 0% interest loan as long as you pay it back

[00:22:55] within a year.

[00:22:57] Wow.

[00:22:58] And I was like, what?

[00:23:02] Okay.

[00:23:04] And so I took it.

[00:23:05] I took the loan.

[00:23:06] I went to Europe.

[00:23:07] I moved back home with my parents back in Northern Indiana because I had then spent every

[00:23:11] single dollar.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:14] And I got a job at my local bar and grill, which I always worked at over the summers

[00:23:18] and still, you know, it's closed down now, but loved it all growing up.

[00:23:22] What was the name of that place?

[00:23:25] It was called, it was called the main view.

[00:23:29] Ooh.

[00:23:29] I mean, on main street.

[00:23:31] I feel like there will be people listening who have been to the main view on main street

[00:23:37] where you grew up.

[00:23:38] So I'm just, just asking.

[00:23:40] Yeah.

[00:23:40] I don't know.

[00:23:41] I don't know if anyone around in my like human world, I think they might all be tired

[00:23:45] of, tired of hearing all this stuff.

[00:23:48] But if any of you are listening, I love you all.

[00:23:52] So I will speed up the, I don't know why I went down that rabbit hole, but I'm just saying

[00:23:56] like, there will be angels in, in the world that like see something in you.

[00:24:03] And, um, sometimes it's okay to ask for help or to take the help when it is presented to you.

[00:24:10] And this is one of those times, uh, where this guy, which like you said, uh, oh, and sometimes I think

[00:24:17] like, what was the motivation there?

[00:24:19] But it really set me off on this path.

[00:24:20] And maybe he did just see something in me that was like, this girl will take an adventure and I trust

[00:24:26] her to pay me back.

[00:24:28] And I did, I, I paid it all back.

[00:24:30] I didn't pay $1 of interest on that money.

[00:24:32] And I had the time of my life in Europe.

[00:24:35] I had totally still a great time, even though I had to move back in with my parents.

[00:24:39] And then I went to Chicago.

[00:24:41] I was in Chicago for seven years, got on survivor at the end of that.

[00:24:46] Um, when I got back from survivor, I had, I had, I had this inkling before I went, I should just

[00:24:51] get rid of my apartment.

[00:24:53] Um, but I kept it.

[00:24:55] And then when I got back from Fiji and I like walked into that apartment, I was like, I don't,

[00:25:00] I can't live here anymore, but I don't know where I want to live.

[00:25:03] Wow.

[00:25:04] Long story.

[00:25:05] We will skip.

[00:25:06] I ended up in Denver for five years.

[00:25:08] Um, went to Europe or well, actually I went to East Asia in January of 2020 COVID broke

[00:25:17] out.

[00:25:17] I took a flight to Madrid, met my husband there.

[00:25:21] Right.

[00:25:21] And, um, now he's my husband.

[00:25:25] He wasn't my husband at the time.

[00:25:26] I met him on Bumble.

[00:25:27] And, uh, eventually it was just too much to have Denver.

[00:25:31] My parents are in Northern Indiana.

[00:25:33] His dad is in Atlanta, Georgia.

[00:25:35] His mom is in Spain.

[00:25:37] He has a place in Spain.

[00:25:38] So it was just like Denver, Indiana, Atlanta, and Spain.

[00:25:41] It was four spots.

[00:25:42] We couldn't keep up with that.

[00:25:44] Um, and so I ended up just buying a house back in my small town.

[00:25:48] So then back to Indiana and Spain back and forth.

[00:25:52] And now my husband is in a pilot school in Indianapolis.

[00:25:57] And so we are parked here while he's learning to be a commercial pilot for the next few

[00:26:02] years.

[00:26:02] So after all of that, I counted the other day, if I live in a spot for more than 30 days,

[00:26:08] I counted it as a move.

[00:26:10] And, uh, I had moved 38 times from the time I was 18.

[00:26:15] Um, so I've been around.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:21] That's a lot.

[00:26:22] That's a lot.

[00:26:22] And I, it, it's interesting.

[00:26:25] Like all this is interesting to me on a lot of levels.

[00:26:28] I feel like I have some follow-up questions within what you mentioned, but even just the,

[00:26:33] like, not everyone moves that often.

[00:26:36] Not everyone.

[00:26:37] And I'm assuming that means you have to be adaptable to different places and environments

[00:26:42] and homes and circumstances.

[00:26:44] But then also like, I don't know when you move that often, like, aren't you just ready

[00:26:49] for the next, like your, your, when do you even unpack if you're, have you started to

[00:26:54] unpack by now?

[00:26:55] Like hopefully you're able to settle in a little bit more.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] So I, I, um, yeah, so many things, right.

[00:27:05] So many times you don't unpack.

[00:27:06] So a lot of the times I was like in an Airbnb, like for a four week stint or a six week stint

[00:27:12] where you're just living out of suitcase.

[00:27:15] Um, it has been yet for here.

[00:27:20] So in our apartment here, I kind of really quickly was craving for the first time.

[00:27:26] Like I want to have a place where my toothbrush goes that's on the sink as opposed to like

[00:27:32] just in my makeup traveling bags.

[00:27:35] Um, and not that I haven't had that over the years somewhat, but a lot of moving.

[00:27:41] And so I have entered into this, I think new stage of my life where I'm 38.

[00:27:47] I just turned 38.

[00:27:48] Um, Adrian, my husband is in school and we know we're going to be here for three years.

[00:27:54] And it really has provided me a ton of relief to like return to myself.

[00:27:59] I've started writing.

[00:28:00] I've just landed.

[00:28:04] It's, which is funny since my husband's like literally taking flight.

[00:28:07] And then now I'm the one that's landing.

[00:28:09] Um, but for now, and it's a nice little break.

[00:28:12] And I think why I can do that is because he's going to be a pilot and then we get to fly all

[00:28:17] over as a family member and stuff.

[00:28:19] So it feels like I'm in the eye of this where my life will probably go back to swirling all

[00:28:25] over the place and movement is really, really nice to unpack.

[00:28:30] As you say, I still have any art on the walls yet.

[00:28:33] I'm not sure about that.

[00:28:34] I've never done that part before, but we are fully unpacked.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:38] I will say to that point about art on the walls.

[00:28:41] Like I very specifically in my apartment, like I, I want more pictures on the walls or in

[00:28:51] places.

[00:28:51] I don't know, like the right configuration.

[00:28:54] And then I also think about how there are so many different pictures.

[00:28:58] And then when it comes to art, so many different pieces of art you could have, like, it's almost

[00:29:02] overwhelming to think about, but you have time.

[00:29:05] You have time to like settle in and do that and figure that out, which is nice.

[00:29:10] Right.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:11] How long have you lived where you live?

[00:29:13] Oh my gosh.

[00:29:13] I have been here for, I think it's been so since 2018, May, 2018, I moved here and it's

[00:29:20] been great.

[00:29:21] Like I'm settling obviously, but I just, I realized like I am so, I travel, I travel a good amount

[00:29:29] for work and in life and I'm just places.

[00:29:32] But I think that the thing I realized is that I just want like more faces immediately there,

[00:29:38] like around me and people I admire and love, but also it feels like there's so many different

[00:29:44] pictures and people and things.

[00:29:45] And I kind of don't, I don't know, like it feels weird to me to have like pictures of

[00:29:50] myself on my walls to be like, yeah, that's, that's me.

[00:29:53] Cause it's just like me looking at it for the most part.

[00:29:55] Right.

[00:29:56] That's me looking really cool in that picture.

[00:29:59] So I don't know.

[00:29:59] That's, I don't, are you a picture?

[00:30:01] This is, I love this conversation by the way.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:04] Are you like a picture person as you settle in?

[00:30:12] So it's so, I just love that you're calling this specific thing out because there are,

[00:30:19] you know, everything's so digital now as we sound like old, old grannies to actually go

[00:30:27] through your pictures and just pick like three from each year that just make you feel whatever

[00:30:32] you want your house to be like, feel relaxed, feel joy, feel happiness, feel connected, whatever.

[00:30:40] And to actually go to, this is how I do it.

[00:30:43] This is my lady way, like send it to CVS online and go pick it up at CVS.

[00:30:48] I'm sure there's another way to do it now.

[00:30:51] And have those actual, it's like open it up and feel it in your hands and look at it and put it in

[00:30:58] a frame and have it sitting there.

[00:31:00] It really is an honoring, I think, of moments in your life.

[00:31:05] And it, it does help to have pictures.

[00:31:08] I have, um, actually Rob's this.

[00:31:11] Oh my gosh.

[00:31:12] What?

[00:31:12] You have a pic like Rob's headshot?

[00:31:14] No, I have, I have Rob's, you know, staring at me at all times.

[00:31:20] Um, no, he got, I'm sure from one of his sponsors got this, um, which looks so beautiful.

[00:31:25] Like with the light shining through the window in the back.

[00:31:27] Is that a canvas print?

[00:31:29] Yeah.

[00:31:29] It's a canvas thing.

[00:31:31] Uh, it's a, for the people who are just listening, it's a picture of the original Navidi tribe

[00:31:37] minus a couple of people sitting on the beach.

[00:31:39] I'm going to make you full screen for the viewers for a second.

[00:31:43] Oh, here we are.

[00:31:45] Um, I note that Chris Noble is missing one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

[00:31:51] two people.

[00:31:54] And so Rob sent this to me.

[00:31:55] I have this sitting up above my desk and it just brings me so much joy.

[00:32:00] So I do love having pictures around and I do love having pictures around and you,

[00:32:05] that is reminding me that's a great way to get some art on the walls.

[00:32:09] Um, also I love having pictures of myself.

[00:32:12] Huh?

[00:32:13] I know.

[00:32:14] I feel like I would, I feel like I would enjoy it, but it would change my personality completely.

[00:32:19] Like me looking at myself on the walls would just be like, Oh yeah, look at that moment.

[00:32:24] But I do think it's important because especially when it comes to, I like the idea of like doing

[00:32:30] it scared and just like being brave and embracing it.

[00:32:33] And I have a little tattoo on my wrist that says courage as one, as a reminder.

[00:32:37] Um, and it's, it's so interesting because, you know, I do think we have to be reminded

[00:32:43] of our, like, I, I know someone who used to call those or who does call those like bad-ass

[00:32:48] moments, like bad-ass moments of ourselves.

[00:32:50] And we've shined the most.

[00:32:51] And because it's so easy to forget all of the amazing things that we've done and who we

[00:32:57] are.

[00:32:58] And yeah, just to like get caught up in the day-to-day and social media and the news and

[00:33:04] everything that's happening out here when like, yeah, we were out here doing things.

[00:33:10] Um, which is, I think it's good to have the reminders.

[00:33:12] And I especially love, and maybe, you know, honestly, I like what you're talking about with

[00:33:17] the physical images, but I also, and I really want that like for wall sake, but there are

[00:33:23] also those really cool digital frames, which are not sponsors of this podcast.

[00:33:28] So I won't mention any names unless they want to call us up, right, Matt?

[00:33:34] Yeah.

[00:33:34] Yeah.

[00:33:34] Call us up.

[00:33:35] We could do a double, double sponsorship for anyone.

[00:33:39] Yeah.

[00:33:40] We're, we're open to that.

[00:33:41] Yeah, we are.

[00:33:42] No, this is so cool, but I actually, I want to go back to something.

[00:33:46] Did you, you mentioned like looking for, um, environmental positions and I work at a climate

[00:33:51] change solutions, nonprofit leading the storytelling program, which is really exciting.

[00:33:56] But where is, was that like a thing that was calling you up slash to ask that as a different

[00:34:03] question?

[00:34:03] Like, what did you want to be growing up?

[00:34:07] Like, did you have an idea of that?

[00:34:09] And was, was the environmental stuff part of that?

[00:34:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:13] Um, thank you for your work.

[00:34:15] It is so important.

[00:34:17] I just read a short story by Pam Houston last night.

[00:34:21] Um, about why it is literally the short story.

[00:34:26] I mean, this is what I mean by magic and witchy and the things that happen in the world when

[00:34:32] we slow down and have connections with people.

[00:34:34] So the, the short story I read last night by Pam Houston, I will give it to you to put

[00:34:38] it in the, in the show notes is about why it is important as the, as we're essentially

[00:34:44] burning the world down to still stop and write poetry and to tell stories about this beautiful

[00:34:50] earth.

[00:34:51] Oh my gosh.

[00:34:51] Which is like.

[00:34:53] Just lastly.

[00:34:54] Yeah.

[00:34:54] It's, I do feel like some people really attract that energy a lot more that like witchy,

[00:35:03] some might say coven like energy to, to their lives, but no, that's, that's awesome.

[00:35:10] Um, and yeah, I'll definitely link that in the show notes for people.

[00:35:14] It's so beautiful.

[00:35:15] I mean, trigger warning at the beginning, it is about her, uh, aging dog.

[00:35:20] Um, and so that is really, that is really hard.

[00:35:24] I was just, it's just so interesting.

[00:35:26] I was up until I always could.

[00:35:28] I liked being in bed by like nine 30, 10.

[00:35:29] I couldn't sleep last night.

[00:35:31] I was looking at this stack of books that I got and I was like, I just really feel like

[00:35:36] reading one of these short stories.

[00:35:37] I opened the book.

[00:35:38] It was to this, this was, I don't even know if it's the first one in the book.

[00:35:42] I just opened to it and read that one.

[00:35:45] Um, and it's your job in the world.

[00:35:49] It's your, it's, it's what you're, it's what you're doing on the planet right now is storytelling

[00:35:54] around our beautiful earth.

[00:35:56] Right.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:57] And it's, and I think what's so cool too, and it sounds like this, this story might be

[00:36:01] a piece of that, which is just like, for me, it's a lot of interviewing people and especially

[00:36:07] like my work focuses on, as I always say, like passing the mic to voices that often go unheard.

[00:36:12] So it's primarily black communities, indigenous communities, communities of color, queer people,

[00:36:17] and like all these other voices, primarily women and non-binary people like featured in the

[00:36:22] work.

[00:36:22] And it's, yeah, it's always, we always learn a lot when we like share people's stories

[00:36:28] and highlight them, uh, which is one reason I love doing pod friends just as an excuse

[00:36:34] to keep asking questions.

[00:36:37] One, well, actually really, honestly, first and foremost, I think it's an excuse for me

[00:36:41] to have really great conversations with people and have like that dedicated time that we

[00:36:46] don't often have in our lives to just like sit and talk with people, but especially people

[00:36:52] who are all over the place, just as busy as, as we are.

[00:36:57] Right.

[00:36:57] Um, so I don't know.

[00:36:59] I love that.

[00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:36:59] When we take a moment and just follow our instinct to like ask the curious questions that we have

[00:37:06] about another human being, it takes just a moment to find how we are really, really,

[00:37:18] really all connected.

[00:37:20] So much so that my, whatever it was within me that drew, I'm in the middle of like four

[00:37:25] really good books right now.

[00:37:27] Wow.

[00:37:27] For some reason it drew to me to pick up this new push cart prize.

[00:37:32] I think because Steven Fishback talks about the push cart stories.

[00:37:36] I was at a library book sale and there were two of these, uh, push cart anthologies of

[00:37:41] short stories.

[00:37:41] So that's why I picked it up at the book sale was because of Steven Fishback.

[00:37:46] And then now I was feeling drawn to that last night to read that story and, or to read a

[00:37:52] story in there.

[00:37:52] That's the one I turned to.

[00:37:54] And it ties to what your work is in the world right now.

[00:37:58] It's storytelling, it's connection, it's all of these things.

[00:38:01] And I really, in a, in a world where there's so many things that are just fall on the floor,

[00:38:12] give up, disconnected.

[00:38:14] Why even keep going?

[00:38:16] I get that.

[00:38:16] And then there can be moments of connection.

[00:38:22] Yeah.

[00:38:22] Feeling like there is love, whatever you want to call it.

[00:38:26] God.

[00:38:26] Yeah.

[00:38:27] Universe, like tying us all together.

[00:38:29] And in those moments where we all get closer to remembering, we are one thing with the earth,

[00:38:36] with each other, with nature, then we can continue to move towards more love and movement

[00:38:43] and less divisiveness and less fear.

[00:38:45] And we can do things that we're a little nervous about because we know we have community supporting

[00:38:50] us.

[00:38:50] So I love that this story that I was pushed to read was, was in this way.

[00:38:57] And then I wonder the ripple effect of like, if someone else is going to pick it up, like

[00:39:01] pick up the story, what short story do they read?

[00:39:03] And who does that connect with the next human being?

[00:39:05] I just love these ideas of moments of ripples of connection.

[00:39:08] And I think one of the best things we could also do in those moments is to let people know

[00:39:14] that we're having them or communicate them because those, I feel like those things happen.

[00:39:19] Like I'm that if I didn't bring up what I do in my work, for instance, like that would

[00:39:25] have still happened, except we wouldn't have known.

[00:39:27] And that's just one of those weird things to me about, I've been using the word, the phrase,

[00:39:34] really the universe, like often lately.

[00:39:36] And I'm not really that person, but I think I kind of, maybe I am where I'm like, oh,

[00:39:41] like a lot of things are just happen.

[00:39:43] They happen in the universe.

[00:39:44] The universe works, the world works, you know, as you were saying, like whatever, whatever

[00:39:49] it is to you, it works in mysterious ways.

[00:39:51] So I think that's really fascinating.

[00:39:53] And I will say, because I was just spending time going back, listening to more road to

[00:40:00] reality that I was one of the interviews that I went back to was Chrissy Hoffbeck, who is

[00:40:07] phenomenal.

[00:40:08] And by the way, I just added like literally just today added her on LinkedIn.

[00:40:12] Cause I was like, you said to add you on LinkedIn, like I'm adding you.

[00:40:15] And I'm sure that we've messaged a little bit before about like winning conditions and

[00:40:20] all, but I love winning conditions.

[00:40:22] It's on my, I'm not going to go, I'm not going to turn around, try to find it within

[00:40:26] my shelf, but it's here somewhere.

[00:40:28] And she talks about how just this idea of luck and how we create more luck for ourselves

[00:40:36] and winning conditions by the book, um, by connecting with people, the more we connect, the more we

[00:40:42] put ourselves out there.

[00:40:43] Like it does create really great opportunities for us in the world.

[00:40:47] And I think about even my career where I graduated college here in DC, like 10 and a half years

[00:40:54] ago now.

[00:40:55] And a bunch of the different opportunities that have come up for me in life and work-wise

[00:41:01] even, you know, while they've been a lot of hard work and there's been a lot of that going

[00:41:05] in and a lot of connecting has been because of just some of putting myself out there and

[00:41:10] you never know like what life and the world will really have in store.

[00:41:15] Right.

[00:41:16] Yeah.

[00:41:16] It's funny where now I feel like I'm like drifting to career perspective, which is like, yeah,

[00:41:22] there's a lot of stuff.

[00:41:24] That's very, a lot of synchronicity in this.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:27] If you look for it, it's always there, right there.

[00:41:30] It's, it's always there.

[00:41:31] And like you said, and I love that, like maybe on a different day on the same, a different

[00:41:36] aligned universe, everything everywhere all at once where I didn't bring up that I read

[00:41:40] the short story or you didn't bring up your, but it still would have happened.

[00:41:42] Like I still would have read this story that touched my heart and you still would be doing

[00:41:47] that world's work and it's connecting us, but it is really fun to see those moments.

[00:41:55] So it's a new year.

[00:41:56] You know what that means?

[00:41:57] Setting big goals.

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[00:43:41] I did not answer your question, which was, what did I want to be when I grow up?

[00:43:45] Oh, did I really?

[00:43:46] Yeah, I guess I did ask that question about 20 minutes ago or so.

[00:43:50] But yeah, like, did you have an idea?

[00:43:52] I mean, just because, just so we touched on it.

[00:43:54] Yeah, so, I mean, as long as I can remember, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer.

[00:44:00] By the time I was in high school, I thought I wanted to be an environmental lawyer.

[00:44:03] Um, I remember watching Aaron Brockovich and just being like, that is what I want to do.

[00:44:09] Like, go and represent communities that are being screwed over by the system.

[00:44:16] Um, all of us are part of communities that are being screwed over by the system in one

[00:44:21] way or the other.

[00:44:23] And, um, I went to see a career counselor when I was like 15.

[00:44:27] I was like, I visited all the colleges I wanted to go to.

[00:44:30] I thought my sophomore year spring break, you know, what most 15 year old kids want to do

[00:44:35] on spring break is go visit universities.

[00:44:40] Um, and, um, I saw like a career counselor.

[00:44:44] I forget my mom, like drove me to the big city to like meet this, this career counselor.

[00:44:49] And I took this huge, long placement quiz thing.

[00:44:53] And he was like, oh, you're not meant to be the lawyer.

[00:44:56] You're meant to be the judge.

[00:44:58] Uh, which is so funny now that like, it did set me on this path to go environmental management.

[00:45:03] Sure.

[00:45:03] Um, to see me in like a courtroom and being a judge is quite funny to me.

[00:45:09] Uh, maybe he just saw me on the jury of survivor is what his, maybe he was mixed.

[00:45:15] It's that it's something witchy there, but he was seeing something, but he, he, he's not

[00:45:20] a survivor fan.

[00:45:21] So he didn't really know.

[00:45:22] Didn't really know how to bring that, bring that out in words.

[00:45:25] Um, so I did that and then, yeah, I got out of college, went to go do this island thing.

[00:45:30] And then in the, in those summers, I, I, um, just like asked every person who I knew who

[00:45:36] was a lawyer, you know, if I could shadow them and really quickly, the pattern I picked

[00:45:41] up on was all of the people who I interned or shadowed were really tired and miserable.

[00:45:48] Yeah.

[00:45:49] And none of them said, oh my gosh, it's so fun that you want to be a lawyer.

[00:45:55] This is the greatest work of my life.

[00:45:57] I love doing this every day.

[00:45:59] Like, let me show you my craft.

[00:46:01] That is not what anyone said.

[00:46:02] Anyone.

[00:46:03] I mean, some people were like proud of what they were doing and deeply committed to their

[00:46:07] hard work, but no one was having fun.

[00:46:11] And I was like, this can't be for me.

[00:46:14] I'm not going to law school.

[00:46:15] I'm not, I'm not going to go spend more money, get into more debt so I can live that

[00:46:18] life.

[00:46:19] Right.

[00:46:20] I don't know what, I don't know what.

[00:46:22] Instead.

[00:46:23] And I would say this is probably becoming as in my writing, the theme of my life.

[00:46:27] I don't know what it is, but it's not this.

[00:46:30] Yeah.

[00:46:30] And I think with my career, when I was shadowing those lawyers, that was the first time where

[00:46:34] I was like, I don't know what it is, but it ain't, it is not this.

[00:46:39] So that's what I wanted to be when I grew up.

[00:46:41] I thought.

[00:46:43] Wow.

[00:46:43] I love that though.

[00:46:44] And it's, it's interesting.

[00:46:46] Like when we back to connection, like when we go out and connect, we find things that

[00:46:54] we want to move toward, but we also could find things that we move away from.

[00:46:58] And I was just reflecting on the fact that, you know, in like over the last, I'll say eight

[00:47:05] years, like I've interviewed like hundreds of people in different ways, a lot of change makers,

[00:47:11] folks in the climate world, folks in the podcasting world and otherwise.

[00:47:15] And I think the beauty of that, or the secret of that is that you really learn from other people's

[00:47:22] experiences, mistakes, successes, opportunities, all of that.

[00:47:26] And that, like, I think I've, I've probably been able to avoid a lot of pitfalls just from

[00:47:33] like asking people questions or observing how are they talking about the work that they

[00:47:39] do?

[00:47:39] How do they feel in the work that they do?

[00:47:41] So I actually, there's so many directions that we could go in, but I, I want to come back

[00:47:49] to road to reality.

[00:47:50] I, right now I'm so curious about like your career coven journey and what exactly, I don't

[00:47:59] want to say part of it's what led you to that, but there's also this idea of like taking the

[00:48:05] leap or getting started or whatever you want to call it.

[00:48:07] And obviously there's a difference from having an inkling or an idea to actually making it

[00:48:13] a reality.

[00:48:15] Some might say a road to reality.

[00:48:17] Um, that wasn't good.

[00:48:19] Oh my God, I love that so much.

[00:48:21] Edit it out, edit it out.

[00:48:23] It's going to be in here.

[00:48:24] Um, no, but I love it.

[00:48:28] I literally love it.

[00:48:29] Do not take that out.

[00:48:30] Yes.

[00:48:31] What was your path?

[00:48:32] What was your path to the career coven work?

[00:48:36] What inspired that?

[00:48:37] And, and then how did you actually do it?

[00:48:42] And I'll say, I say that as someone who's definitely been in that mode of, you know, having

[00:48:47] full-time jobs at different points, but also even with the storytelling and interviewing

[00:48:53] folks thinking, okay, well, how could I build, you know, build my own thing doing this and

[00:48:59] doing it in a way that I want to do it.

[00:49:01] And so I, yeah, I admire, that's one of the things I admire about you, but I'm, I'm just

[00:49:05] take me on the journey.

[00:49:06] Thank you.

[00:49:09] Those were, that was such a kind intro to your, to your curiosity, which I'm going to,

[00:49:18] I'm going to skip to the part that I think is the theme.

[00:49:21] And then I'll talk you through it, which is that is the key, right?

[00:49:24] Is what is, what perks your interest and who do you feel drawn to what they're doing and

[00:49:34] what is it about someone else's life that you think you cannot have?

[00:49:40] Ask yourself, why not you?

[00:49:43] And there is your next work to do towards it.

[00:49:46] Right.

[00:49:47] So anyway, yeah, that's kind of the end.

[00:49:51] And then we'll go back to the beginning.

[00:49:52] How did I get here?

[00:49:53] I got lucky and worked hard when I first moved to Chicago after I paid back my wonderful

[00:50:05] island man's loan and I had enough money to get started.

[00:50:09] My parents wrote me, they, I, and I am a, I have to, my parents paid for my undergrad.

[00:50:14] I, I did for my, for almost all of my graduate school.

[00:50:18] Um, but my parents paid for my undergrad.

[00:50:20] I am very, very lucky that my parents have helped me.

[00:50:24] Um, they wrote me, they wrote my first month's check when I moved to Chicago for $667 was

[00:50:33] my like third of the better.

[00:50:34] I moved into essentially the closet of a, where two of my other friends were living.

[00:50:38] It was this tiny, tiny room.

[00:50:40] We're just a twin bed fit in Chicago and Wicker park.

[00:50:43] And my parents wrote that first check for me.

[00:50:46] And so I want to say thank you and acknowledge that that puts me in a position that a lot

[00:50:51] of people do not ever get.

[00:50:53] Right.

[00:50:53] Blink and I at.

[00:50:54] So my parents did write that first check for my first month in Chicago.

[00:50:59] I got in touch with, I was like interviewing for like nannying jobs, which is so funny.

[00:51:04] Cause my choice and I love kids, but that would probably not have been the fit.

[00:51:09] So none of those things worked out.

[00:51:11] I interviewed for like three or four nannying jobs and didn't get any of them.

[00:51:15] Surprise, surprise.

[00:51:15] Surprise, not surprising at all.

[00:51:18] So I got into a temp agency that was just like temping for administrative professionals.

[00:51:27] Yeah.

[00:51:27] And I worked for two weeks, one at one place and one at the second.

[00:51:33] And both of them, one offered me a job right away.

[00:51:37] And then to become an office manager of a proprietary hedge fund.

[00:51:43] And the other one stayed in contact with me in a year later, they called me up and said,

[00:51:49] Hey, how's that job going?

[00:51:51] We loved meeting you.

[00:51:52] Would you come work for us now?

[00:51:54] And that second firm was called Shields Manili Partners.

[00:51:57] And they were an executive career transition firm.

[00:52:00] So they were working with all CEOs, CMOs, CFOs, some SVP levels, but big time folks who were paying

[00:52:07] like a lot of money for like a premier career transition service.

[00:52:14] And I just got so lucky to work for the founders of this company.

[00:52:22] And they took me under their wing.

[00:52:24] I started out just as the office manager answering the phone, but it was a small firm.

[00:52:28] So I was doing client service and helping.

[00:52:30] And they let me be a sponge.

[00:52:33] And in the time I was there for three years, I think there were 72 executives that went through

[00:52:37] their program.

[00:52:40] I don't know if that's picking up the sirens.

[00:52:43] And there is, yeah, just rushing to, no, it's barely picking up.

[00:52:48] Okay.

[00:52:50] So I got to witness like 70 plus super on paper, rich people.

[00:52:57] I remember this one guy who'd gotten an $8 million severance, meaning he got fired from

[00:53:03] his job and got $8 million and was like having to work with the financial advisor to like get

[00:53:12] things sorted.

[00:53:14] And I was just like, my brain broke in that moment.

[00:53:19] Like my parents have done well for themselves, but we were chicken farmers.

[00:53:22] I got my one new pair of shoes growing, you know, go to Kohl's, pick out your one new pair

[00:53:26] of shoes, that sort of thing growing up.

[00:53:28] And I was just like, what?

[00:53:31] Like if somebody gave me $8 million, I would never have to work a day again in my life.

[00:53:37] And his problems and what happened pattern and pattern and pattern of these C-suite executives

[00:53:45] was they were worrying about the exact same things that my friends were worrying about who

[00:53:52] were coming out of college, which is what's my next job?

[00:53:56] Why won't anyone hire me?

[00:53:59] What do I actually like to do?

[00:54:02] Who is going to let me in?

[00:54:05] Who am I?

[00:54:07] Right.

[00:54:08] Wow.

[00:54:09] And in those three years, I really...

[00:54:13] It's human, just human questions, right?

[00:54:16] Yeah.

[00:54:16] It's human questions.

[00:54:17] It doesn't matter if you...

[00:54:18] I mean, I still don't know if I fully believe it.

[00:54:21] Like that if you could make $8 million getting fired from your job, your life wouldn't be

[00:54:25] different than what my life is.

[00:54:26] But really the questions on the inside happened to be the same.

[00:54:31] And in those moments, I learned that career and work can be a portal in which we explore

[00:54:38] what we're doing here on this planet.

[00:54:42] And career can be this thing that is imposed on us from the outside in or career can come

[00:54:49] from the inside out.

[00:54:51] And those aren't the words I would have used then, but those are the words I'm able to use

[00:54:55] now.

[00:54:55] That my passion on this planet and purpose on this planet, because I failed so many times

[00:55:02] and tried to force myself into being, quote unquote, successful on paper.

[00:55:08] I was.

[00:55:10] But I was miserable.

[00:55:14] Yeah.

[00:55:15] Yeah.

[00:55:16] I worked at startups.

[00:55:17] That's what I thought I wanted to do.

[00:55:19] I thought I wanted to be chief of staff, chief of staff, chief of staff.

[00:55:21] I became a chief of staff.

[00:55:22] Then I was head of operations and a financial firm and then in a private equity firm.

[00:55:27] And so I have all those words, right?

[00:55:29] Private equity, finance, startups, chief of staff, head of director, like all of these

[00:55:36] things that I thought I was supposed to be working for.

[00:55:40] But I kept feeling like I was just in the wrong place.

[00:55:46] And my instinct, and I think a lot of people's instinct is there's something wrong with me.

[00:55:53] Wow.

[00:55:54] I don't fit in here.

[00:55:57] There's something wrong with me.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:01] Yeah.

[00:56:02] And it's, and then you're, and you're looking around and everything you're seeing is saying,

[00:56:07] but everyone would want this.

[00:56:09] This is the dream.

[00:56:10] Like, why am, why am I not loving this?

[00:56:14] Why don't I feel like I'm at the top of the mountain and like I've accomplished everything.

[00:56:18] And I, it's funny because I feel very fortunate to have not had those markers of success in mind,

[00:56:27] but I've also been in places in my career where I have had something and had people see that.

[00:56:38] Like, I'll give it a specific example.

[00:56:41] For about five years before I was at my current job, which where I've been for four years now,

[00:56:45] I was working at this small organization, but my main client was NASA.

[00:56:50] And so everyone was like, oh my gosh, NASA, that's the dream.

[00:56:54] And that was, I never felt like that was the dream at all for me.

[00:56:58] But it was very fascinating to witness people, including working with people all over the world who,

[00:57:05] you know, I was living their dream.

[00:57:08] And one thing I wanted them to, to know, and I still want people to know whether it's us as,

[00:57:14] you know, podcasters on RHAP or you being on Survivor or whatever it is,

[00:57:19] is that like, yes, it's really cool, but there's all, but the grass is also greener on the other side.

[00:57:25] And you have to start from that place of like coming from, it has to start from within.

[00:57:31] Like you need to do what you love.

[00:57:32] You need to do what brings you joy.

[00:57:34] You need to do what you're good at and what makes you full and what is purposeful for you

[00:57:39] in order to be happy.

[00:57:41] I mean, happy or content or whatever you want to call it with your career,

[00:57:45] or else you're going to feel really disconnected because like a VP or chief of staff or whatever role it is,

[00:57:51] isn't going to make you happy at the end of the day.

[00:57:54] It's not, I don't think so.

[00:57:56] Now, I'm pretty sure it won't, but I also, I like that $8 million,

[00:58:02] the $8 million severance, I think could go a long way to me paying for some happiness,

[00:58:08] not even full happiness, but.

[00:58:09] Right.

[00:58:10] There's some things, there are some things that would contribute.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:16] So that was, I mean, crash and burn, by the way, in my, in my corporate career,

[00:58:22] it was not, it was not easy.

[00:58:27] And how did I do it?

[00:58:29] How did I turn it into where I am now?

[00:58:30] That is the career coven, which is actually going to be a, for lack of a better term,

[00:58:37] a portion of the bigger thing that I'm working on building right now,

[00:58:41] which we just don't have the name for it yet.

[00:58:43] But so my partner, Alex and I, we both came from holistic career coaching.

[00:58:48] And so we do have this, like, I'm talking about this career portal and career lens where

[00:58:51] we see a lot of opportunity for helping people transform their entire life,

[00:58:56] a holistic view through career.

[00:58:58] Because, and why is that?

[00:59:00] Because Martha Beck, who I trained under, says suffering never lies.

[00:59:05] Yes.

[00:59:06] Like suffering is going to tell you that if you are suffering somewhere, that is yourself

[00:59:13] and your integrity and your, she uses your essential self versus your social self.

[00:59:18] So the people pleasing, what does outside world think?

[00:59:21] Oh, you work for NASA.

[00:59:22] That's the dream.

[00:59:24] Right.

[00:59:24] Versus essential self is like, yeah, but I spend my days doing X, Y, Z.

[00:59:27] And that doesn't really, it's not out in the stars.

[00:59:30] Like you think.

[00:59:31] So Martha Beck talked about moving to your essential self and how, you know, you are out

[00:59:36] of integrity is because it feels like suffering.

[00:59:39] And I see a lot of people in the world who are suffering a little bit or a lot of it through

[00:59:47] their career because it's out of integrity with where their essential self wants to go.

[00:59:51] It's not just career, this aligning your limiting, like seeing your limiting beliefs

[00:59:57] and getting back into who you are, having trusting self-talk as opposed to negative self-talk

[01:00:07] and aligning with your essential self is bigger than the career portal.

[01:00:11] But here we are starting with the career coven because both Alex and I have been career

[01:00:15] coaches.

[01:00:16] I've done it full-time for two years, but I started my own, my first little like coaching

[01:00:21] business called the self coach years ago.

[01:00:24] I forget when it even what eight to 10 years ago, I started to learn with that executive

[01:00:30] career company I worked for and apply the actual steps, which is look inside first before

[01:00:37] you go searching outside, um, in various tools and exercises.

[01:00:42] And I started helping friends first for free.

[01:00:45] Then there was one week where I had to wake up like three days of my five day week to help

[01:00:50] other people prep for their career stuff.

[01:00:53] And I was doing it all for free.

[01:00:54] And I was like, huh, I don't think that I can energetically wake up at 630 in the morning

[01:01:02] to do extra career work for other people for free when I'm still just getting by.

[01:01:07] But I was doing that for a while.

[01:01:09] So it was in, in long, not short turtle step to turtle step to turtle step towards my curiosity

[01:01:18] about how the way other people were living their life that looks like it was working for them

[01:01:22] in the way that I wanted my life to work for me.

[01:01:25] Yeah.

[01:01:26] And I think that's how we do it.

[01:01:28] I think that's how the career coven has come to be, which is answering the call of my curiosity

[01:01:35] and trusting that it's all going to be okay.

[01:01:39] Wow.

[01:01:39] That's it's so powerful.

[01:01:41] And I, I especially love what we're talking about in the context of new year, new beginnings

[01:01:48] for people, but also really a good time for many people.

[01:01:52] And you could do this anytime of the year to like stop and reevaluate and check in with

[01:01:58] yourself and, and really be mindful about how am I feeling?

[01:02:03] Where am I?

[01:02:04] Where do I want to go?

[01:02:05] What do I want to move away from energetically?

[01:02:08] As you're saying, what suffering am I putting up with or leaning into?

[01:02:12] Because I feel like that is noble or that that's the way I should be living.

[01:02:18] Lots of questions there, but I, I guess like one thing I want to know is when did it feel

[01:02:25] real for you that you were doing the career coven?

[01:02:29] Because you mentioned this self-coach thing that you were doing before.

[01:02:35] And I also, I'll say this was 20, maybe 2017 is when I started this like project.

[01:02:43] I called it outside of work, which then I made into an LLC.

[01:02:46] So it was technically a business, even though I was not making any money, but it was me

[01:02:51] interviewing people, like making a film, interviewing people, all this stuff.

[01:02:55] And it was real, but it, I think where it really starts like fully feel real for me was

[01:03:02] then taking those skills.

[01:03:04] And now in these last few years or last four years of my work, like actually having budgets

[01:03:10] to make documentaries, interviewing people and like travel involved in putting on events

[01:03:16] and there are people who are actually consuming, like when did it, I don't even know if I'm

[01:03:22] just asking a specific to the career coven or just like the concept of, but when did it

[01:03:27] feel real for you?

[01:03:29] Was there any point where you just still had that imposter syndrome or was there any point

[01:03:34] where you had imposter syndrome period around it?

[01:03:36] Because maybe you didn't, you might've known.

[01:03:39] I still do.

[01:03:40] I still do to this day when you're asking the question, which I totally, I totally get,

[01:03:46] which is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're asking is, is I, Matt,

[01:03:55] see you, Kellen, on the other side.

[01:03:58] When did you get to the other side?

[01:04:02] I have a feeling I, oh yeah.

[01:04:04] Keep going.

[01:04:04] Keep going.

[01:04:05] I'm, I, I, I have a feeling I'm just picking up on where you're going with this.

[01:04:11] Yeah.

[01:04:12] Well, that is my, did I feel like you're on the, is there, is that kind of it?

[01:04:17] Like when were you on the other side?

[01:04:21] I am curious.

[01:04:22] My question for you is on the other side of what, where was I before?

[01:04:27] And where am I now on this bridge in which you see me walking?

[01:04:33] Hmm.

[01:04:35] Well, that's a good question.

[01:04:37] And maybe I'd put that back to you as a question.

[01:04:40] This is what happens when you have two interviewers.

[01:04:42] That's reliable.

[01:04:43] Question, question, question.

[01:04:45] Well, I guess it's also this question.

[01:04:47] Do you feel like you're on the other side of anything?

[01:04:49] Do you feel like there's something that you are still like striving toward or like a bridge

[01:04:55] you want to cross at this point?

[01:04:58] I'm, this is fascinating.

[01:05:00] Yeah, no, I'm, I, I am still, I just, I think this perceived inflection point that we are talking

[01:05:09] about, like, I just want to call it out for the audience.

[01:05:11] A, your perceived inflection point of what you were asking me.

[01:05:15] I actually don't know what that is.

[01:05:17] That is a reflection of your experience.

[01:05:19] Right.

[01:05:19] And then you're saying to me, did you get to the other side?

[01:05:23] And I'm like, well, I have my own story.

[01:05:26] Let me tell, I can tell you, I was, I was here and then I am there.

[01:05:30] But each of us, I think have our own inflection point of when we look out in front of us in

[01:05:39] our life or other people, we think they are over there.

[01:05:44] I am stuck here and I can't get myself over there because X, Y, Z.

[01:05:55] There we go.

[01:05:56] I love it.

[01:05:57] I love this stuff because it's so fascinating because all of it, and I think even what I'm

[01:06:02] asking about is if, if, uh, well, maybe this is, this is so fascinating because you are in

[01:06:10] a position where you're really focused on helping people navigate these like perceptions,

[01:06:17] these beliefs, sometimes misconceptions about what it means to, let's say for lack of a better

[01:06:24] term, like make it to a certain point or to feel like you are full and like you're at a certain

[01:06:30] point.

[01:06:30] But something I'm hearing from you, which is really powerful is that like, there's not a

[01:06:37] point.

[01:06:38] And this is kind of what we've been talking about in different ways with roles.

[01:06:42] Like there's not a point where you are, there's not a point, like there's just not a point

[01:06:48] that you have to get to for it to be real.

[01:06:53] I'll stop talking as I see you nodding and really.

[01:06:57] No, I'm just listening.

[01:06:58] I'm listening.

[01:06:59] No, I was learning.

[01:07:00] But it's interesting.

[01:07:02] It is interesting because I do think that so often the one, the world puts us in a place

[01:07:09] where we think, okay, I need to have certain, I have to have something, certain tools, certain

[01:07:15] experiences, whatever it might be to like, to be the thing that I want to be.

[01:07:21] So in order to be like the, I don't know if someone's be like the world's best podcaster,

[01:07:27] what does that look like?

[01:07:28] Does that mean making a podcast and doing an episode and doing what you love and feeling

[01:07:33] fulfilled?

[01:07:34] Does that mean doing a hundred hours, you know, a week of podcasts somehow on your podcast network?

[01:07:41] And it's, it's so fascinating to me because I feel like most of us have perceptions of where we would want to go from where we are, rather than like being present in the moment.

[01:07:54] And this brings me back to Chrissy Hoffbeck, who I keep mentioning because in your road to reality conversation with her, she's talking about being this person who is always playing this waiting game of like waiting for the next thing, waiting for the next thing, or even just looking forward to the next thing.

[01:08:11] But some, like, I think what's really important to recognize is that like, we're there, like you're there, you're in it, you're doing it.

[01:08:20] And it also feels like it didn't, from what I'm hearing from you, it didn't feel like there had to be like a leap that you took to get to doing the thing.

[01:08:32] Yeah. I mean, I, I, I hesitate to be like, so like airy fairy, but it's like, when you ask that question, it's like, there were a million leaps.

[01:08:44] Yeah. And then probably, and then there were none at the same time somehow. And yes, I'm, I can always point to some pretty big ones when I got divorced.

[01:08:55] Yeah. For my first marriage, that was pretty big one. When I look Jeff Probst in the face and was like, you cannot make me a series of stories of the men that I've dated that will not.

[01:09:12] Yes.

[01:09:13] One, I got one, this is in my interview portion.

[01:09:18] Yeah.

[01:09:19] And they take you into a room. This is how they did it back in the day. And Jeff is there and Matt is there, the executive producers room. I don't know, 10 to 20 people.

[01:09:27] I am not even sure you sort of black out for that stuff. I do. And I had gotten broken up with at my birthday. And so that was kind of the storyline going through my casting journey and, and, and they take you in, you have like, what felt like 30 seconds. It was probably somewhere between three and five minutes. And Lynn Spillman at the time was like, clap your hands. And she's like, okay, we're done.

[01:09:48] And I'm like yelling at Jeff on the way out the door. Like, I am not going to be the summation of the stories of the men that I've dated. There's so much more to me than that.

[01:09:57] But like, just trying to like say, I mean, I told good stories, but they were all about the men who had fucked me over. And I'm like, that's not who I am. And, and, and Jeff looked at me and he goes, Kellen, trust the process.

[01:10:11] Yes. And then Lynn yanked me out the door and they slammed it. And that was my five minutes. And then I had no, you know, so it is a series of moments where I did take the leap where that guy said, Hey, I'll loan you $5,000.

[01:10:26] Do you know what? $5,000. Yeah. I'll, yeah, I'll take your money and I'll pay you back. And I don't even really understand interest. I mean, you kind of do when you're 19, but it's like, you know, or I guess I was 21, but that guy took a chance. Jeff saying, trust the process, things that I did leaving my first marriage.

[01:10:44] I mean, all 38 times that I packed up my crap and went to the next place. I mean, there are millions of times where yes, I took the leap and yes, I was scared. And yes, I did it anyway. And I would argue that everyone is going through those. It's just a matter of noticing the moment when this phrase is all over the internet on my page, which is your brain will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

[01:11:14] Wow. That's surreal. I like that.

[01:11:19] So where is it in each day that familiar hell is winning out over an unfamiliar heaven? And it's just a, I think it's a matter of noticing and you're not going to quit your job. Maybe you will. If you are listening to this and you are going to quit your job tomorrow and you're like, this is what I needed. I'm going over. That's amazing.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:42] That happens to not be you. What is one thing that you are curious to know about a person who is doing something that you would like to do?

[01:11:54] Yeah.

[01:11:55] Martha Beck calls them turtle steps.

[01:11:57] And it's just like taking one turtle, curious turtle step at a time towards the life. You have an inkling that you deserve is what feeds back the energy into that life that you're creating.

[01:12:13] Wow.

[01:12:14] And you know what?

[01:12:15] No, it's powerful because we are taking, each of us are taking steps, even if we don't appreciate it.

[01:12:21] And I find myself having a lot of these conversations with people I meet at our HAP live events because of pod friends, because of the pride has spoken and the interviews and the conversations.

[01:12:34] And I find that people often admire something, whether it's about me or about a guest in a conversation we have.

[01:12:41] And I just like to hold up a mirror to them to say, no, you're awesome too. Like you are doing it. You're amazing. I am me, but you are you. And that's something that's valuable and valid and important and meaningful.

[01:12:58] And it's, it is honestly like really a gift through pod friends and the pride has spoken to have that ability to, in a very, in very unexpected ways, because like, this is like we're at survivor watch parties. Like we're in this, this is not, we're not here for like all the life conversations.

[01:13:16] We are because they come up and it's cool to be able to remind people like, Hey, you're awesome. You're probably doing better than you think you are. There are. And this is something I'll say to you, Kellen.

[01:13:29] And I feel like this is like a message that I want to share with more folks, which is that as, as much as we get like gratitude or appreciation from people, like I'm sure you've gotten, I know you've gotten so much love either from guests or from reviews or whatever it is for Rhodes Reality as one example, or for the career coven as one example, that there are so many more people who never reach out to share their appreciation or their gratitude or the ways that you, they impact.

[01:13:57] That you impact their lives. And so that's just one thing I want to pass on to you, but also anyone listening that they're like the ripple effects and the impact that you have is way bigger than you'll ever know.

[01:14:12] And that's like one cool thing for me about life, realizing that like for most of us, we feel really cringe, like, you know, fanboying or whatever it might be to, to let people know how much we, we love and appreciate them.

[01:14:26] But like, there's, there's a lot of that appreciation and gratitude and energy out there, which, you know, it's nice when we have conversations that surface that.

[01:14:36] And I will say in a smooth segue here that I feel like one of the things you do so well with Rhodes Reality is that you really do give people their flowers and show them appreciation and love.

[01:14:53] So we could definitely talk about all of that experience a bit, but I want, I'm a fan.

[01:15:00] I love what, I love what you're doing. I'm on board.

[01:15:02] And I think that it's, it's like all very tied in with this conversation when it comes to connection, when it comes to gratitude, when it comes to like how we perceive someone versus how they perceive themselves.

[01:15:16] So on and so forth. So I don't even want to ask a question right now, Kellen.

[01:15:21] I'm just like, I'm just thinking about road to reality. I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about how you're part of this community.

[01:15:27] I'm thinking about where that, where that began.

[01:15:30] Robby O.

[01:15:33] Hey, Robby O.

[01:15:34] So, so, you know, it's, it's, it's started, things started going away a long time back with you leaving voicemails.

[01:15:41] You're here, you're doing it. We're here.

[01:15:44] No. Can you even believe that? I mean,

[01:15:47] It's insane.

[01:15:48] I can remember my brother is who introduced me to RHAP and like,

[01:15:58] When I got that voicemail played, it was like the world, the heavens had opened up.

[01:16:06] Yeah.

[01:16:07] And shined down on me. And I, all of my dreams had come true.

[01:16:13] Like, genuinely, me and my brother were like, oh my God, like, I can't believe it.

[01:16:17] You were, he was doing chores in the chicken house. I couldn't believe it.

[01:16:20] It was your voice as he was listening to the recap of whatever show it was, you know?

[01:16:24] Yeah.

[01:16:24] It's just, look at that. I mean, it's like, and I think part of why I can sit here is because

[01:16:40] I'm always going to have the voices that tell me I can't. You asked about imposter syndrome.

[01:16:44] Like, I, every day still hear the voice that says, who the fuck do you think you are?

[01:16:51] Right. Relatable.

[01:16:54] Like, and people say that to me, right? I mean, and, and my, my time off,

[01:16:59] on the show was not, did not go swimmingly in the social media universe. And like, it's not that I

[01:17:09] don't have the negative self-talk that says there's something wrong with me, or am I doing this right?

[01:17:15] Am I imposter syndrome? Who am I to think that I could put on a podcast?

[01:17:19] Those voices are still there. I just sit and look at them and listen. And I think, whose voice are you?

[01:17:26] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:27] Who is saying that in my head? Who has gotten into my head and has made me believe that I don't deserve to be here?

[01:17:35] Because I look around the world and I think everyone deserves to.

[01:17:40] That's right.

[01:17:42] Everyone who wants to be on Survivor deserves to be on Survivor. Whether, whether you get on or not is another story.

[01:17:49] If you have the dream of wanting to be on Survivor, you deserve to have that dream and to be on Survivor and to go for it.

[01:17:57] And notice how it makes you feel to think about being on Survivor.

[01:18:03] And then think about other things in your life that you do have access to that give you little glimmers of doing that.

[01:18:10] For example, now I'm playing Blood on, getting to play Blood on the Clock Tower.

[01:18:13] It feels very much like the, you know, same energy I got when I played Mafia in high school on like our high school trip to Florida.

[01:18:23] Like, it's the connection.

[01:18:25] It is the connection of going and being with people.

[01:18:30] I think that's what a lot of us crave who want to be on Survivor is actually the connection.

[01:18:34] We think what we crave is a million dollars.

[01:18:36] We think what we crave is to go and manipulate and see if we can be good and all this stuff.

[01:18:41] But I wonder if underneath it all, we're all actually craving connection, community, signing out of the digital world, reconnecting with the earth,

[01:18:51] seeing what we have in us, seeing how far we can go versus I want to go on a game show and win a million dollars.

[01:18:58] I don't think it's divisiveness.

[01:18:59] I think it's community that we're all looking for.

[01:19:02] And being a part of RHAP, going to live events, going to Bitter Jurors podcast, all these other podcast communities and watching the show Survivor together,

[01:19:10] I'm telling you, feels like all the good parts of being on Survivor without the bad parts.

[01:19:17] Yeah.

[01:19:18] No, and I'll say...

[01:19:19] I didn't mean that, but it's true.

[01:19:21] No, and I think that's one thing I'm really thankful for, whether through PodFriends, but just generally through listening to people sharing their stories and their experiences,

[01:19:34] is that you really do come to understand.

[01:19:37] Again, it's that idea that the grass is always green on the other side, but there's just so much to...

[01:19:43] As it's probably really tough for us to grasp, or tough for people who haven't had that experience to grasp.

[01:19:50] Yeah.

[01:19:50] Being on TV for millions of people with an edited product that you have no control over is not a walk in the park.

[01:20:01] And I'm sure for some people, it changes their lives and has a massive impact for ways that are really amazing.

[01:20:09] I know it also hurts people in different ways, and it's really complicated.

[01:20:13] But I will say, I just had this moment, as someone who hasn't been on Survivor, where, you know, thanks to the Pride has spoken with Dr. Evie Jagoda.

[01:20:22] We just did this fundraiser for Point of Pride, an organization supporting, like, trans communities and lives with financial assistance.

[01:20:32] Check out Point of Pride.

[01:20:33] But this poster, and this is the most surreal thing, because it's, like, me, Grace Leader, and Josh Wiggler, also podcasters on the network.

[01:20:43] And then about 15 Survivor players.

[01:20:46] And I was texting Evie about this, that realistically, five years ago, when the only person who was part of that, who was on Survivor, was Jacob Derwin.

[01:20:57] Shout out to Jacob.

[01:20:58] But, like, none of us could have imagined being there, let alone, you know, me, where I'm like, hey, I'm having a great time.

[01:21:05] I just, the other day, saw, you know, Bryce and Wynn at Bryce and Wynn Present and had a great time.

[01:21:12] Week before was at RHAP with a bunch of folks and having that community.

[01:21:17] And it is really amazing how you can, to your point, get that community and connection without someone having to, like, cast you into that spot.

[01:21:31] Give you permission, too.

[01:21:32] Right?

[01:21:32] Give you permission.

[01:21:34] Yeah.

[01:21:34] And it's nice to not wait for people's permission for you to have the thing that you think might fulfill you or add to your life.

[01:21:44] I mean...

[01:21:45] Wait. Hold on. Hold on.

[01:21:47] I literally stole that from a podcast.

[01:21:51] Like, that's the first time I had a bell.

[01:21:53] I actually don't have a physical bell.

[01:21:55] Look at that.

[01:21:57] Yeah.

[01:21:58] You do not have to wait for a system to give you permission to participate in the joy you desire.

[01:22:08] Wow.

[01:22:09] That's so deep.

[01:22:11] That's what you just said.

[01:22:12] I was just repeating what you just said.

[01:22:13] No, well, no, I was...

[01:22:15] But it's hearing it from you that sounded deeper than what I said.

[01:22:20] So...

[01:22:20] Plus, most of the time, I don't know what I'm saying.

[01:22:22] Like, I just...

[01:22:23] I don't...

[01:22:23] You don't hear yourself in the same way.

[01:22:26] Yeah, you go into a bit of, like, an art flow a little bit, which is a sign that you're in your...

[01:22:29] What we call it, the coven.

[01:22:30] And many people do.

[01:22:31] Your zone of genius, right?

[01:22:32] I love that.

[01:22:33] When time stops, when things slow down, when it feels easy, when you're not having to fight a pill, it's one of the pretty good signs that you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing.

[01:22:45] Not supposed to be, like, follow the rules, but just, like, where you are, you know?

[01:23:20] I like that.

[01:23:21] I like that.

[01:23:22] I like that.

[01:23:22] I like that.

[01:23:23] I like that.

[01:23:23] I like that.

[01:23:25] Like, all of this stuff is changing because...

[01:23:30] I don't know if you know Alok.

[01:23:31] Do you know of Alok?

[01:23:33] No.

[01:23:33] Not survivor-related.

[01:23:35] No.

[01:23:35] They're, like, a premier voice in the trans community.

[01:23:40] And Alok is a poet and a fashionista and a speaker and all of these things.

[01:23:46] Their interview on We Can Do Hard Things is, like...

[01:23:50] Podcast has been life-changing for...

[01:23:53] I've listened to it, I think, like, three or four times.

[01:23:55] Also, they're on the We Are Man Enough podcast, which is a very interesting conversation because Alok is talking to two men hosts.

[01:24:04] Yeah.

[01:24:05] And Liz Plank, who is also a host on that show.

[01:24:10] Anyway, that Alok's...

[01:24:15] And I think, like, folks, one of many messages is that...

[01:24:19] Trans folks are showing us that we are all...

[01:24:27] We have all put ourselves in boxes that we don't want to be in.

[01:24:36] And I am relating so much to what they're saying and wanting to figure out how to work in the new paradigm.

[01:24:54] Yeah.

[01:24:57] Of no longer binary in any way.

[01:25:04] Yeah.

[01:25:04] Yeah.

[01:25:05] Yeah.

[01:25:06] Because that's just not helpful.

[01:25:08] You know, like gender, all these things.

[01:25:10] Like we are not one thing and we don't have to choose one thing.

[01:25:15] And I think it might be made up.

[01:25:17] Like Alok says that we are like having to choose whether we are in that box or this box.

[01:25:23] And I'm still thinking through how all of that works.

[01:25:26] And as a woman, a white woman with privilege.

[01:25:31] Right.

[01:25:32] Where do I make sure that I stay quiet when I need to?

[01:25:46] Right, right, right.

[01:25:48] And speak and fight like hell where I need to.

[01:25:53] Mm-hmm.

[01:25:54] And the fact that we are in PodFriends and the RHAP network, I just want to say and hold up props to all of the people who are doing the work.

[01:26:04] Mm-hmm.

[01:26:04] To be inclusive, to give voice, to call out, to say the hard things that some people think are hard and all that stuff.

[01:26:13] And you are in that group so much.

[01:26:16] Yeah.

[01:26:16] Thank you for the lift and the weight that you are doing to carry some of us who are still learning along the way.

[01:26:29] And first of all, as someone who's constantly working to accept compliments, thank you for that.

[01:26:37] Because there are a lot of people carrying weight and there are people carrying even more weight than me in a lot of cases too.

[01:26:45] But what's important is that people show up and carry the weight that they can.

[01:26:51] And recognizing that this is coming out, 2025 is beginning, new presidential administration.

[01:27:00] Gulp, literally.

[01:27:01] Yeah.

[01:27:02] And it's just like recognizing that it's more important than ever that we carry the weight where we can.

[01:27:09] And recognizing that every time we show up to show love and put in effort to support our communities, that means the world.

[01:27:19] Your neighbors, your communities of all kinds.

[01:27:22] One thousand percent.

[01:27:23] Your survivor community.

[01:27:24] Yeah.

[01:27:25] Whatever, you know.

[01:27:25] Yeah.

[01:27:26] Communities in all of this way to take care of each other and to say thank you to each other.

[01:27:32] And the fact that I've already experienced the RHAP community to be a place that does that, which we don't always see, especially like in the world of social media and the Reddits of it all.

[01:27:46] You don't always see that.

[01:27:48] Like, I'm so thankful for that.

[01:27:49] And just want to give you a shout out, an unsolicited shout out, because I see you speaking up and tweeting about and talking about and bringing up things.

[01:28:00] And vividly, and I don't remember what podcast it was on, but vividly remember you on a podcast, maybe in the last year on a recap podcast.

[01:28:10] But like talking about issues and calling it out.

[01:28:13] And like, that's what we need.

[01:28:15] Like, yeah, you are like a white woman with the privileges you have.

[01:28:22] I think there's a whole other conversation about privilege and how like different people have different levels of privilege in all sorts of ways.

[01:28:31] So that's a whole other podcast to get to, a much longer one.

[01:28:35] But like the fact that you speak up.

[01:28:39] And again, I'm going back to your conversation with Wendell on, I almost said pod friends, but on Road to Reality, where he's just like giving you the kudos of like, yeah, ask the questions.

[01:28:51] It's good that you can ask questions, not just you, Kellen, but like anyone.

[01:28:55] It's good when you ask questions if you don't know if you're doing or saying the right thing.

[01:28:59] And you can also use Google and chat GPT and ask the questions.

[01:29:07] You can ask the questions that you have.

[01:29:11] I will tell you that one, I am still learning and I'm not expecting anyone to answer this for me.

[01:29:15] When, when, when human beings have their pronouns in their bio and like, obviously for me, like she, her or he, him, they, them.

[01:29:29] And then if it says she, they, or he, they, I'm still working towards it.

[01:29:34] So what I'm doing is I have multiple times Googled it.

[01:29:37] I have asked chat GPT.

[01:29:39] I'm still learning and still figuring it out.

[01:29:43] And like, it is, I, I'm like, I think I'm just like, am I old now?

[01:29:47] Why am I not like just getting it right away?

[01:29:49] But there's no shame in like Googling questions, asking people in your safe circle, the questions you don't quite understand.

[01:29:57] Because what we don't understand, we often fear.

[01:30:02] And fear can create distance and fear can create defensiveness.

[01:30:06] And also like, I just don't want to look stupid.

[01:30:08] And I certainly as hell do not want to offend anybody, but we can do our own work and our own research to understand.

[01:30:15] And we can say out loud, I am in the middle of still sorting out that specific part of the pronoun thing.

[01:30:23] And so that's where I am.

[01:30:25] Okay.

[01:30:27] And it just, you know, Google it people.

[01:30:30] What is it?

[01:30:31] There's something that seems strange.

[01:30:32] No, one's going to look like you can cancel it, whatever, whatever your questions are.

[01:30:35] You can Google it first, look for resources and people who have written the books, who have done the work, who have been living out these experiences.

[01:30:45] Because there's a lot of research you can find on your own.

[01:30:48] Because we don't need to put the weight on the people who are in the communities.

[01:30:52] For example, as a woman, if you're a man who is confused about why women would like equal representation in boardrooms, maybe Google it.

[01:31:02] Yeah.

[01:31:03] Maybe think about what it might be like to be one man on a board of eight women.

[01:31:10] Yeah.

[01:31:10] Maybe think through those things yourself before you go to a woman and ask them why, what does this mean or whatever.

[01:31:16] So do your own work, do your own research first, find communities, support other people, and just tell the truth and be honest.

[01:31:23] Because I think honesty and being genuinely curious is the best way to go, at least for me.

[01:31:31] That's where I think I've found the most connection and freedom.

[01:31:34] Oh my gosh.

[01:31:35] I love all this.

[01:31:36] Like we've gone so many places.

[01:31:37] I want to ask, like, just as we wrap up this portion of the interview before the part where we have some questions for the RHP Patreon.

[01:31:52] Just with Road to Reality in general, I wonder, are there any learnings that you've had along the way with all of those conversations or any themes that you've seen?

[01:32:02] Because, I mean, you know, there were things that I'm sure you kind of knew or thought you knew from your experience or interactions otherwise.

[01:32:10] But what, like, I don't know, anything that you've learned from that to date?

[01:32:16] Because I'm sure there will be more conversations to come.

[01:32:19] Yeah, I think, oh my God, I had learned so much.

[01:32:25] So much from every single person I talked to.

[01:32:28] I mean, I just, I don't even want to give examples because I won't remember all 18 episodes or whatever off the top of my head.

[01:32:34] But every single episode, I learned something from the person that I spoke to.

[01:32:38] I learned a different way to look at my own experience.

[01:32:40] I learned a different way of looking at the world.

[01:32:43] I learned something about that person that I thought I knew that I didn't know.

[01:32:46] Even Damo is one of my closest friends, you know.

[01:32:51] And so there's always more to learn about people.

[01:32:55] And it's fun to find out.

[01:32:56] The other thing, I think, to kind of tie to the whole theme of the conversation, which is like doing it scared.

[01:33:05] I hadn't produced a podcast.

[01:33:07] I don't even know if I produced.

[01:33:08] I don't know if that's the word to use.

[01:33:09] Like, I had never been a guest on a podcast.

[01:33:11] Like, I didn't know.

[01:33:13] It's not like I had, like, practiced being a podcast host before I said I had this idea.

[01:33:19] Like, Rob took a chance on me.

[01:33:21] He said I could do it.

[01:33:21] And you know what I found out?

[01:33:23] I think I'm actually really freaking good at it.

[01:33:25] You are.

[01:33:26] You are.

[01:33:27] I actually think I'm really good at it.

[01:33:30] And the way I found that out is because I craved a space.

[01:33:38] Plot twist.

[01:33:40] I craved a podcast on the RIGP network that was first and foremost for survivors.

[01:33:48] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:50] And if fans listened and they got something out of it, cool.

[01:33:55] I love that so much.

[01:33:57] What I needed in my post-survivor experience was to have a place to go.

[01:34:03] Tell my real story.

[01:34:05] And I could see that all the people who played survivor, what they needed was a place to return to who they are as a person and to see how the chess piece of survivor played out in their life so far.

[01:34:18] Mm-hmm.

[01:34:19] I created Road to Reality for myself.

[01:34:23] That's what it's about.

[01:34:23] And for my survivor friends whom I love.

[01:34:27] And it is a byproduct, I think, that some of y'all have liked to listen and some of you all have learned things from it for your own life.

[01:34:35] And so that is the biggest lesson from Road to Reality that I have learned so far.

[01:34:39] Yeah.

[01:34:40] Do what you want to do at your heart.

[01:34:44] Ask someone for a little help.

[01:34:46] Be brave.

[01:34:47] Do it scared.

[01:34:48] Create the thing you love because I guarantee you that when you're truly creating something you love, someone else is going to love it too.

[01:34:59] Oh, my gosh.

[01:35:01] I...

[01:35:01] Ah, Kellen!

[01:35:03] That's the secret.

[01:35:04] That's the secret of interviewing people that I feel like I learned a long time ago that doesn't always occur to me, but when it does, it's in this moment of having the conversation that, number one, you have to do it for you.

[01:35:19] But also, once we're done recording today, I'll feel such a sense of accomplishment or wonder or whatever it is just in the conversation.

[01:35:34] And that's what it has to be about first and foremost.

[01:35:36] And then if other people engage and enjoy it, like, great.

[01:35:41] That's amazing.

[01:35:42] If they could take something away from it too, that's even more amazing, right?

[01:35:45] But it has to be something that really accomplishes something or scratches an itch for you.

[01:35:52] I love that.

[01:35:53] And I even just wrote down that idea of do it scared.

[01:35:57] And it's no wonder that you are great at this because, as we know, empathy is your superpower or one of them.

[01:36:02] So, which, side note, in a different pod friends conversation this season, somebody references you and references empathy as your superpower.

[01:36:15] So stay tuned for that.

[01:36:17] Yeah.

[01:36:18] I want to actually go to, as we, again, wrap up this piece of the conversation or wrap up this, like, public podcast interview, all of it.

[01:36:30] Again, subscribe to the Patreon, all that.

[01:36:32] You can subscribe for free because this next piece will be available for free on the Patreon.

[01:36:37] But I actually have something special that is a surprise for you, Kellen.

[01:36:42] A good surprise.

[01:36:43] A surprise I think you'll like.

[01:36:44] I love all surprises.

[01:36:45] I think you'll love.

[01:36:46] Okay, good.

[01:36:47] Bad one.

[01:36:47] It was fun.

[01:36:48] Yeah.

[01:36:48] Okay.

[01:36:49] So I actually have a video message and a question to you.

[01:36:55] And basically, as backstory, I reached out to somebody and I said, hey, I'm interviewing Kellen on PodFriends, former PodFriends guest.

[01:37:05] And I said, what question do you have?

[01:37:08] Make a video.

[01:37:09] Send it back.

[01:37:09] And it was literally, like, 30 minutes later that I got the video sent back to me.

[01:37:14] And so I have a video message from the one and only HGTV star, Extreme Home Makeover star, Wendell Holland.

[01:37:26] Let's see what Wendell wants to know and what he has to say.

[01:37:30] It is your boy, Wendell Holland, your fellow cast away from Survivor 36, Ghost Island.

[01:37:37] First of all, I just want to say I'm so, so proud of you.

[01:37:39] All you've accomplished with the career coven, with Roach Reality Podcast, you're killing it.

[01:37:47] You're doing so great.

[01:37:48] So I'm so proud of you.

[01:37:49] I love and appreciate you and appreciate our friendship.

[01:37:52] We've talked about goals that you've set for yourself and things that I wanted to accomplish in my life.

[01:37:58] And we both watched a lot of things happen and come to fruition.

[01:38:02] One thing that sometimes people ask me is what's next or what's your next goal?

[01:38:06] When you accomplish like a lot of things, sometimes you forget to set a new goal.

[01:38:11] So my question to you is what's your next goal?

[01:38:13] And to my good friend, Matt Scott, I love you, brother.

[01:38:17] I appreciate you, brother.

[01:38:18] Congrats on pod friends to you.

[01:38:20] And I hope to see you both soon.

[01:38:22] Matt, I saw you recently.

[01:38:24] I'm going to see you again soon.

[01:38:26] Love you guys.

[01:38:27] Aww.

[01:38:29] All right.

[01:38:29] Yeah.

[01:38:29] And I, look, I love this question because so much of what we've been talking about is just like, I think about healthy relationships with goals.

[01:38:37] Shout out to Wendell, by the way.

[01:38:39] Huge shout out to Wendell.

[01:38:41] Ugh.

[01:38:42] It's just like, Wendell is one of those people on the planet that we don't always have time.

[01:38:46] I mean, he's a busy man.

[01:38:48] He's a busy man.

[01:38:48] And then every time that our paths get to cross again, it's just like a warm, like cozy hug.

[01:38:57] And I'm just so thankful that my path has crossed with him.

[01:39:01] I'm so, so thankful for my friendship with Wendell.

[01:39:03] And he believed in me.

[01:39:05] I mean, I told him, if not first, like very, one of the first people I told about my idea for Road to Reality.

[01:39:11] And he was like, you've got to talk to Rob about it.

[01:39:14] I was like, what?

[01:39:14] I'm supposed to just like go talk to Rob about it.

[01:39:16] So he really is the...

[01:39:18] One of those people who helped me believe in myself at the beginning of the Road to Reality journey.

[01:39:24] So thank you to Wendell.

[01:39:26] Yeah.

[01:39:27] And he asked a good question.

[01:39:28] Like, do you have a goal?

[01:39:30] Like any goals you want to shout out for Wendell?

[01:39:32] He asked.

[01:39:33] I can't...

[01:39:34] I know, putting me on the spot.

[01:39:35] Like, hey girl, I see you got this new business going.

[01:39:38] I see you got you moved.

[01:39:39] I see you have all this stuff.

[01:39:40] What's next?

[01:39:40] Mm-hmm.

[01:39:42] Um...

[01:39:42] So I think...

[01:39:48] In a feeling, um...

[01:39:53] I'm working on...

[01:39:58] Like...

[01:39:58] The word I can only think of is like embodiment and getting...

[01:40:02] Returning and getting back into my body.

[01:40:06] I feel like I've done a ton of thought work.

[01:40:09] I just completed a nine-month training program under Martha Beck, which was a journey in and

[01:40:14] of itself.

[01:40:16] Therapy, somatic, you know, talk therapy, all these different CBT, DBT, all this stuff,

[01:40:21] which I've always been in off and on in my life.

[01:40:23] But I'm feeling this recognition that I've not kept a super close appreciation for my body,

[01:40:37] like my skin suit here on this planet.

[01:40:39] And I'm really...

[01:40:41] This next thing is embodiment and grounding and feeling and kind of returning back into my body.

[01:40:48] Um...

[01:40:48] I think what that translates to actually is writing.

[01:40:51] My biggest...

[01:40:52] My next kind of big, hairy, wild, big, hairy goal that Martha calls them is...

[01:40:57] Is actually...

[01:40:59] I think I'm writing...

[01:41:00] I think...

[01:41:00] I think I'm writing two books, actually.

[01:41:03] Woo!

[01:41:04] Wait!

[01:41:06] I think that's what's happening.

[01:41:08] I'm...

[01:41:09] I mean, like words are coming out.

[01:41:11] And it seems to be in two different places.

[01:41:13] So my next big goal is to be writing.

[01:41:18] I don't know if it's to write a book.

[01:41:21] But my next big goal is to be writing and to be embodied and to get back into my body over the next year.

[01:41:28] I'm...

[01:41:28] I'm in...

[01:41:29] In like kind of more commercial words, I'm going from diet and exercise to nourishment and movement.

[01:41:37] Right.

[01:41:38] Big difference.

[01:41:39] And it sounds like so...

[01:41:42] Like a freaking...

[01:41:43] I don't know, like cover of a 17 magazine, like all the way back.

[01:41:47] But it's like I'm creating a new relationship with food and my body and movement and what that really means to take care of myself.

[01:41:56] As opposed to like, I should eat more...

[01:41:58] I should eat more salads and less french fries.

[01:42:01] Like I'm tired of that conversation.

[01:42:03] And I want to return to myself and go to nourishment and movement.

[01:42:08] So nourishment, movement, writing.

[01:42:10] And really...

[01:42:13] I'm starting...

[01:42:14] I think I can announce it.

[01:42:16] The Coven is starting a talk show.

[01:42:23] And by that, I mean, no one knows about it and no one's producing it for us.

[01:42:27] We are going to go on YouTube Live and we are going to start the Alex and Kellen talk show.

[01:42:35] And we are going to start like a Dear Sugar of sorts as well, where people can send in their questions about their career if they want to.

[01:42:46] Really anything but career lens.

[01:42:48] So we're going to have these new ways to interact with people to have people come in and sit with us.

[01:42:56] That's what our desire is to do, is to invite people in to come sit with us with their suffering and see where we can find some liberation instead.

[01:43:04] So I think that's it.

[01:43:05] Is that big enough, Wendell?

[01:43:07] Is that big enough?

[01:43:08] Big enough for what's next?

[01:43:10] Yeah, Wendell, let us know if that's big enough.

[01:43:13] No, I love that.

[01:43:14] And I love that, like all that we've talked about with the themes of connection, with the themes of getting out there.

[01:43:19] And also just a reminder for folks, like tune in.

[01:43:22] Tune in once it's happening.

[01:43:25] Ask questions.

[01:43:26] If you're wondering, like, oh, I don't know if I need this.

[01:43:29] I think I'm okay in where I am in life or career.

[01:43:32] Like just do it.

[01:43:33] You have nothing to lose.

[01:43:35] You have nothing to lose.

[01:43:36] So I just have one more question for you right now, which is a question I love to ask everybody.

[01:43:43] And you did just mention books and announcing them.

[01:43:46] So I have to ask you, Kellen, a big one.

[01:43:50] If your life were a book or documentary, what would the title be and why?

[01:43:58] I see themes in our conversation.

[01:44:02] There were different things that came up, but I want to ask you, what would the title be and why?

[01:44:07] And maybe the why might be obvious based on our conversation, but I figured I'd ask.

[01:44:14] It's coming to you.

[01:44:15] I believe in it.

[01:44:17] Yeah.

[01:44:18] What would my what would the name of my current if it was written now, what would the documentary name be?

[01:44:26] It's not leaving me.

[01:44:27] So I'm just going to say it return to self.

[01:44:29] Oh, I like that.

[01:44:31] I love that.

[01:44:37] It's like the first portion of my life, maybe the first 30 years we're trying to figure out what was wrong with me that I didn't fit into the system.

[01:44:52] And I've turned this page that's like, wait, what is it about the surf, the system that isn't serving me?

[01:45:00] And in that quest, I think it is a return to myself, trusting myself, trusting my inner voice and trusting what feels good and is exciting to me versus shoulds.

[01:45:16] So it's going from like it's it's still kind of like trusting my gut, I guess, to be honest, as cheesy as it is when people say that about my and they did make me say it too many times.

[01:45:26] I must have been blurting that out all over the place.

[01:45:28] It was annoying to me too, everybody.

[01:45:31] But it really is this combination of head, heart and gut or sacral response and returning to myself and trusting myself instead of the outside.

[01:45:45] Maybe inside out instead of outside in, but I think it's return to self.

[01:45:49] I love that.

[01:45:51] And just thank you for all this.

[01:45:52] Any words for the people who are tuning in at this point still?

[01:45:57] Like anything you just want to say in closing to them.

[01:46:06] I love how thoughtful you are, by the way.

[01:46:08] And I also love watching you think.

[01:46:11] Yeah, I'm sorry.

[01:46:12] You might have to chop those pauses.

[01:46:13] No, no, no, no.

[01:46:14] I think it's good.

[01:46:15] I think that's good because it's just it's real.

[01:46:18] This is a conversation.

[01:46:20] And it's a conversation with the people who are listening to this, right?

[01:46:23] It's like I'm waiting.

[01:46:25] In some ways, I believe that when you say, what do you want to say to them?

[01:46:28] I'm like, well, I need to hear what their question is.

[01:46:43] I have yet to meet a human being in a real conversation.

[01:46:51] That wasn't a little bit deprived of rest.

[01:47:03] Lie down, breathe, not get on your yoga mat and meditate and do and just breathe.

[01:47:20] Breathe and rest.

[01:47:24] There are new things coming your way and they will find you in your rest and after your rest.

[01:47:35] That is when ready comes.

[01:47:37] So, yeah, I think that's what I would say to everybody.

[01:47:40] Have a nap.

[01:47:42] Take a rest.

[01:47:45] You're not doing anything wrong.

[01:47:51] There's nothing wrong with you.

[01:47:56] I'm so glad you're here.

[01:48:07] Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning into this week's episode of Pod Friends.

[01:48:11] We're back.

[01:48:12] More conversations to come this season.

[01:48:15] It's going to be really exciting.

[01:48:16] Keep an eye out for conversations with Sam Moore, with Carolyn Wieger, with so many others coming up in this Survivor Off Season.

[01:48:23] And again, if you want to be tuned into it, just go to BeAPodFriend.com or subscribe to Pod Friends wherever you get your podcasts, wherever you listen to them.

[01:48:34] Also, if you want more of Kellen and me in conversation or just want to support what we're doing, there are a few ways you could do that.

[01:48:40] One is by going to Patreon, where you could listen to the exclusive first ever edition of 15 Minutes with Friends with me and Kellen talking, diving in, having some patron-only conversations.

[01:48:52] Go to RobBizWebsite.com slash Patreon and make sure to subscribe to check that out.

[01:48:57] You could even subscribe on the free tier and listen to 15 Minutes with Friends.

[01:49:02] Also, leave a voicemail.

[01:49:04] Go to SpeakPipe.com slash Pod Friends.

[01:49:07] Drop a voicemail about this episode, about Pod Friends overall, about the conversations we've had anytime over the last three years of this show.

[01:49:16] I'm so thankful for this show.

[01:49:18] So thankful for all of you.

[01:49:19] So thankful that we could be in this, be in this together.

[01:49:23] And I just want to thank RHAP's team, including Scott St. Pierre, so many others behind the scenes for your help making these episodes happen, bringing this to life.

[01:49:33] And, of course, one thing I want to say before we wrap up is that if you want to connect with me, catch up with me, I am Matt Scott GW on all social media platforms, especially loving Blue Sky these days.

[01:49:47] So make sure to follow me over there.

[01:49:49] Send me a skeet.

[01:49:51] I think that's what we're calling them.

[01:49:53] It's questionable.

[01:49:54] I'm sorry.

[01:49:56] But also, make sure to reach out on any platform.

[01:50:00] I'm on Instagram.

[01:50:01] I'm still on X somehow.

[01:50:02] Heck, this is a career conversation.

[01:50:05] Hit me up on LinkedIn.

[01:50:07] Anyway, without further ado, finally, I want to thank all of you listeners.

[01:50:13] Thank you for being a Pod Friend.