Kelley Wentworth Rewatches Her Iconic Idol Play | Survivor Time Trip

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[00:00:23] Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back with you to start a new Survivor adventure where we are going to be traveling through time to watch iconic episodes of Survivor. with incredible Survivor guests. And we came up with this idea with this man right here. Give it up for Mike Bloom!

[00:00:48] So elated, Rob. No matter how this ends, we can always say, at least we made the podcast! That's right! And we have such a icon to be with us here for the first premiere episode of the Survivor Time Trip to go back to November 11th, 2015 to watch her incredible idol play. It's Kelley Wentworth! Kelley, how are you? I'm good, how are you?

[00:01:17] Well, we're thrilled. We're doing better than Andrew Savage right now. We're so excited to be here with you to go back to a really great episode, a classic. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was a good one. It was great on the island. It was great watching it play out on TV because I didn't know how they were going to edit it. So yeah, this will be fun.

[00:01:39] Yes. Okay. And we're going to get into all the lore. We're going to debunk some myths here today. So we're so excited to go back and to talk about this really great episode from Survivor Cambodia. It's called You Call Will Hall. What is it? Is this episode number eight? Eight, I believe. Yes. I think it's eight.

[00:02:02] Episode eight of season 31. We've all rewatched it and we're here to talk about it here. And that's our plan this summer to bring you some more of these conversations with incredible guests about these classic Survivor episodes. Kelley, how are you? I'm good. This is such a fun idea given Big Brother, you know, is a time trip. So obviously we got to make it about Survivor and they're replaying Survivor 50 right now.

[00:02:31] I was going to say, for those who do not know, on the day we're recording this, Monday, July 20th, they are re-airing Survivor 50. Oh my God. Is it bad that this was not on my... I knew that they were doing it. I did not know it was tonight. I did not know it was starting. Well, to be fair, the marketing rollout for Survivor 50 proper absolutely overwhelms the idea of marketing for this, which was basically slim to none.

[00:02:55] It's like, hey, if you happen to have CBS on at any point in time in the next three days, you might catch reruns of the first three episodes of Survivor 50. Yeah, I thought they were going to be on after Big Brother, but I guess they can't do a three-hour episode after Big Brother. That's basically it. So not to dive into a schedule of an entirely different historical deep dive, but basically it's premiering on Monday, July 20th. It'll be on Tuesday, July 21st. And then basically it'll be on Wednesdays after Big Brother, as you mentioned, Rob.

[00:03:21] I think the exception is the two-hour episodes, which is the Blood Moon and Mr. Beast, which is if you did not watch Survivor 50 and you hear those terms, you are probably incredibly disquieted right now. But those will be happening on Tuesdays, but otherwise, yeah, they're pretty much going to be airing on Wednesdays. Kelly, we're not keeping you from re-watching the premiere of Survivor 50 tonight, right? No. It's good. It was good. Did you make a cameo in the 50th premiere? I can't remember if you were part of that big super montage at the beginning.

[00:03:51] Probably not. I don't know. I want to say I feel like it was a notable snub. I feel like that was when we went back and like, hey, what are the things that are not in there? I feel like that's... Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I feel like it was like, hey, why isn't that there? They missed on that. It's okay. I have to go back and check my notes on that. But we didn't miss it this time because we're talking about it. A special night for me, it's mentioned in the Tribe and I have spoken.

[00:04:21] This episode aired the night before my son Anthony was born. Oh my gosh, that is special. Yes, who's now 10. So amazing how time flies. When Anthony came out of Nicole's womb, did he flip everyone off like Cass did when she entered from the jury? So many middle fingers in this episode. Andrew Savage has not one, but two blurred middle fingers in this episode.

[00:04:48] One on his way out of tribal council and the other at the challenge. Like literally at the... He gives the middle finger to the challenge when he drops. John Keir Hopper's like, give that man the villain edit right now. Yes. All these months later. Yes. But Kelly, this is such a huge episode in your personal survivor history. Anything big that comes to mind when you go back and watch an episode like this?

[00:05:18] Oh my gosh. There's just so much because it's not just the episode. It's everything that led up to the episode. I mean, I don't even know how far back we want to go. But the reason that no one suspected I had an idol is because I didn't let on at any point that I had one. Even from the very beginning in that challenge when I grabbed it, I wore jean shorts that day. And I told everyone that it was my time of the month so that no one would question I'm wearing jean shorts. Because why would I be doing a water challenge in shorts?

[00:05:47] But I knew if I wore underwear, where would I put the idol? So there was so much that was leading up to it. And I think that's why they didn't split the vote. Because they thought there was no way that Kelly Wentworth would have an idol, which is what made it even sweeter. So we'll get into it. But that's kind of the big thing. All the little steps along the way that led to the moment that we saw. Yeah, I mean, this episode is...

[00:06:12] I know, Rob, you and I said before this that you've been firmly ensconced in the 2015-2016 period of time, considering you just did the Korong rewatch. But this really was a step back in time, despite it being a little over 10 years ago. One of it being that, you know, nowadays, I feel like it has just become commonplace knowledge that if you have an inkling of an idol out there, you tell everyone you can. You essentially publish a newsletter about it. And Kelly, I feel like you were...

[00:06:41] This is a key example, right, of how you can keep this select information to yourself, and you can really weaponize it in a moment where you need it. Yes, that's such an interesting talking point because you have some people that do believe you as the idol to your advantage with your alliance. Tell them to bring them closer or to make moves together. I sit in the opposite camp. Keep it to yourself. Because knowledge is power in Survivor. We all know this. So the more stuff you know that other people don't know, it just helps you more. So that's kind of what happened here.

[00:07:10] But to be fair, in the new era, it is very difficult to keep idols a secret because of the way you find them. Right. They've almost made it impossible to keep it to yourself at this point because you have to have a partner to even get the idol in the first place, which is kind of annoying watching as a past player because you're taking away options for people, and I don't like that.

[00:07:35] Well, I want to set the stage a little bit for what's going on in this episode because there is a lot that happens here beyond just what's going on with you playing the idol because that there is this big power struggle within the big alliance where Steven really wants to go after Joe. Then there are people in that alliance that they want to go after Steven for talking about Joe.

[00:08:00] That there is the fallout from the previous vote where Cass went home and there are a few people like yourself who are very firmly at the bottom of where things are. And then, of course, a very memorable reward challenge, including Keith Nail on the Tuk Tuk famously. Yes. RIP. That was amazing. This is my favorite episode of the season just because start to finish. I wonder why.

[00:08:29] Well, not just the idol play, but start to finish. That reward challenge was one of the best I've ever been on. We had so much fun. It truly was a moment where we just escaped from the game, and Keith was a massive part of that. It just – I had never done anything like that on Survivor. It was such a blast to get on that little Tuk Tuk, and he was – literally, they loved it. Production loved it. They're like, bring in the chopper! Get the drone! Like, we need all the shots! You know? And he was not supposed to do that. No. At first they told him. They said, Keith, no, no. And then Nick kind of just said, oh, it's Keith Nail.

[00:08:58] This could be a TV moment. Let's do it. And so we did it. Were you worried about any sort of liability of you getting into his Tuk Tuk? Like, technically speaking, like, if he had decided to have a little bit of an oopsie on the course, like – Yeah, is he ensured – That could have been a nice way to wipe out half the competition. The boat rides were worse. There's – yeah. We almost died on those multiple times. So, no, I was not concerned. So, there's a reward challenge.

[00:09:26] We can talk about the actual challenge itself because I think that's interesting as well. But you end up going on a reward. So, it's you, Kelly Wigglesworth, Kimmy, Sierra, Keith, and Joe. That's the six that end up winning reward. And you go for – Jeff talked about coffee, but it seemed like we're watching a lot of, like – this was like the Cambodian bagel shop that you went to?

[00:09:54] There were a lot of carbs, indeed. There was iced coffee, which is kind of a mistake when you have not eaten for a while. I don't think they should be offering coffee to people. But that – see, that we all had issues going home, but that's okay. Obviously, Stephen didn't go on the reward, but he certainly had a little bit of a – usually what happens after you have coffee soon after that. It was not good. But, yeah, there were a lot of bagels. There was lox. There were croissants. Yes, there was all sorts of –

[00:10:24] Traditional Cambodian fare. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes, but it was very good. Yeah. But no alcohol, correct? No alcohol. Okay. But in my mind, in my memory from this, I feel like – I imagine Keith was like, okay, you guys got beers, and then he said, let's hijack the tuk-tuk. But he's just hopped up on caffeine here. The thing with Keith, he would get very bored.

[00:10:51] So even when we were all sitting around and we were eating our croissants and bagels and talking and pretending that we were forming an alliance, he was standing in the background. He wasn't sitting – he was kind of fidgety. He always had to be moving and looking at stuff and checking under plates. He just was always moving. So then by the end of it, in classic Keith Nail fashion, he was over the talking and the eating, and that's when he went to explore this other little vehicle in front of him. Yeah.

[00:11:19] I love that he's like, all right, I'm a little bored. Can I give it Grand Theft Auto right now? That's it. Yeah. I think – you seem concerned that he was going to break the tuk-tuk. Well, he was really giving it a good kick. He was really – Yeah, he was digging his heel in today's like, I got a hog in the backyard. Don't you worry about it. He was really making sure it started. That's why I was concerned. I don't know why now, but it didn't matter.

[00:11:46] Did it take convincing to get everybody from the six into the tuk-tuk where Joe's like just hanging on in the back? Yeah. No, it didn't take much convincing. I think when we saw the production said it was okay, we were like, oh, yeah, let's go. We were thrilled. How far did you go? Because we get like the final like establishing shot of you just going down the beach. It seems like it's a one-way trip for the longest time. It was a pretty long beach. Yeah.

[00:12:12] I don't know what beach it is that they – I wonder if that's where the sanctuary is now. No, because we were in Cambodia. Yeah, we were in Cambodia. Yeah, it was a long beach. It was clear. There was nothing there. We went down and then we rode back. And then, like I said, they brought in the helicopter to get the filming and they made us do it a couple times. So we were having a blast. But there were like some like dips in the beach. Oh, yeah. Like had some big bumps. We were flying. Yeah. We were going. Yeah.

[00:12:41] Probably 30 minutes we were doing that back and forth. It was great. Yeah. Well, that was also – I think that was the first post-merge reward, obviously, you had ever gone on, too. And like I think it's tough to top that, I would imagine. It was really fun. And it was a good group. And we were all just lying to each other and eating carbs. And then it lightened the mood with Keith doing that because we all just kind of forgot that we were in this game for a short time. So you mentioned a couple times now that everybody was lying to each other.

[00:13:10] But you're there with Sierra, who's your ally. And it does seem like that Joe wants to do something with you all. Maybe he doesn't know quite yet that Steven is coming for him. So what were all the lies about? Well, Kimmy and Wigglesworth were pretty firmly with the Bayon group. Yes.

[00:13:36] It was an interesting situation for me because we swapped three times. And on the second swap, I had made that five-person alliance with Sierra, Cass, Keith, and Joe. So I was kind of in an interesting spot with them because when we came back together with the merge, I thought we were still all working together. So it was just more of the Kimmy and Wigglesworth of it because the four of us, Keith, Joe, Sierra, Keith, Joe, Sierra, and myself, we kind of had this other side thing going on.

[00:14:06] But then we're telling them, like, oh, we all want to be a group and we need to go against the strong guys and Jeremy and Savage. But then Joe's with the guy. So it was just a lot of agreeing, but not really knowing where anyone stood, I suppose. Yeah. Can you talk about that cast vote? I mean, what is interesting that people might not remember, because obviously the story right is you, Abby, and Sierra on the bottom, is that you actually voted for Cass. I did. Was this part of just for you, like, hop on the ship before it leaves the port or I guess hop off the sinking ship at this point?

[00:14:36] Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to buy you much goodwill in the immediate future. But what caused you to vote for Cass at that tribal council? So I knew at that previous tribal council that the majority was voting for Cass. And I did want to keep my relationship with Keith and with Joe. So I had kind of made a deal with them. Hey, if I go against Cass, who I am working with, and I go against the other girls in Sierra and Abby, it's showing you that I'm still willing to work with you.

[00:15:02] I understand that you're with the Bayon group, but I don't want to shut that off. Because I felt like if I didn't vote with them to get out Cass, then they would see that I had kind of made my decision to be on the bottom and not willing to work with them. So it was almost a sacrifice in some ways of, like, I'll vote for Cass. And then that does actually end up helping me later on, which we can get to as we get further in the episode. But that's why I did it.

[00:15:29] So how locked in did things feel after that Cass vote? They weren't. And I have to tell you something funny. It was so chaotic at the merge. I was losing my mind. At one point, a producer pulled me and said, we need to go have a chat. And they asked me if I had snuck in some sort of medication. Because they thought that I was taking something. Because I had changed so much, my personality. And I was just, I was actually losing it. They're like, well, you need to calm down because you're scaring people.

[00:15:59] Like the production. It's like, oh, okay. What do you mean by hyper-rabid gaming squirrel? What's the bad part? Yes, I don't, I was just running, I was just being like neurotic. And I was just, I was just being kind of acting crazy, like out of my mind. Not how I had been acting the previous 18 days. Was there a reason behind it? Like, was it just the number of people? The fact that you had made the merge? It was the number of people. It was all the conversations.

[00:16:26] It's just keeping track of 13 people and all these different swaps and the different alliances. And trying to keep track of conversations. And then you'd have a conversation with Spencer. And then Spencer would be off on the beach talking to Savage and Jeremy. And you're like, wait, I thought we were working together. But now you're talking to them. And then you'd wake up in the morning and people will be out of camp. And it just was a lot of bodies and conversations to keep track of. And you just started to feel like, I don't even know what's real or not real.

[00:16:51] I feel like I'm living in a fantasy land because I don't, my mind cannot even keep up with everything that's happening. Yeah. You know, I want to ask about something from Tribal Council where my great friend Stephen Fishback is here. He's a big part of the episode. And so there's conversation at Tribal Council about how, and I think that Sierra starts as that there's four people who are running the game. And it's four or five. Classic move out of the Sierra Easton playbook. Yes. Rerunning the hits. Yes.

[00:17:21] And she talks about how there's people that are on the bottom and Stephen pushes back at the Tribal Council. And he says that, I really don't think that there is a bottom here. He says this season is different. This isn't like the previous 30 seasons. It's not hierarchical. And I feel like I normally can tell, like my first thought is like, okay, Stephen is obviously lying here.

[00:17:46] But it wasn't necessarily like, I've talked to Stephen enough that I didn't, it doesn't sound to me like he's lying. So what do you, was this season actually different? There was a hierarchy before this idol play, in my opinion. And this did break things up quite a bit. But there definitely was, and it was the Bayon group was together.

[00:18:15] But within that Bayon group, there were people on the bottom that you can't all be on the top. It just does not work like that. So there definitely were, it was the strong men. It was Jeremy and Savage. Savage would just sit on the hammock all day and people would literally come to him. Like he didn't even have to move. He was just the king of the beach. And if people wanted to talk to him, they had to go to him. And so he was definitely in a top dog spot. Jeremy was in a top spot.

[00:18:43] It really was just the fact that the Bayons, they had the numbers. Takeo, we had gotten each other out. There was nobody left. And so that's what it was. But for Fishback to say there wasn't a top, that's a lie. But okay, that's fine. Which is pretty well considering that y'all stuck in those first tribes for like five or six days. And this has been several weeks later and there's still the Bayon strong prospect of it all. Yeah, the Bayon strong. Okay.

[00:19:13] So I guess from your vantage point, I mean, how privy are you to the issues that are going on? Because there is this big group, but there are issues in the big group, but you're not in the big group. So how aware are you of like the infighting that's happening with the Stevens and the Joes? Oh, gosh. Well, before or after they asked me if I was taking drugs.

[00:19:43] So people do sneak things into Survivor though. So I guess it's a valid question. That's probably the question they also asked Joe before he buried himself in dirt in the year like 2018. Oh, God. Oh, boy. Wow. We try to forget these things, Mike. So I knew that- We can't do the full where are they now for- Yeah. Rob, when are we doing the Mana time trip episode with Kelly Wigglesworth and Joe? Hey, they're both here in this episode. Yes, yes.

[00:20:13] Are they? I think that's the show where I say, are you on drugs? Mm-hmm. Oh, they had some moments for sure. So I knew there was stuff going on because, okay, I'm trying to remember exactly how this came together. Savage heard that Fishback was talking about Joe. Joe and then wanted to get out Joe. But then we saw in the episode that Jeremy convinced him otherwise.

[00:20:39] So I knew there was stuff going on because Joe had come to me with this plan that, hey, this side, which he had the connection to, they are willing to vote out Steven. And at that point, I didn't care who went as long as it wasn't myself, Sarah, Abby, because we don't have the number. So wherever you want me to vote, I'm fine with it. So that was the plan. That truly was the plan for what I thought was most of the day. And then when it flipped, Joe is not very good at lying.

[00:21:09] So when his demeanor completely changed, I knew that he was back with them and that the plan had changed. But I did not know exactly what was said or who said it. I just knew that it was going to be one of the girls. And that's why there's this moment on the beach where I'm looking at him and I'm like, it's me, right? And he just looks at me and says, I don't know. And I'm like, OK, yeah, then I know that I'm getting some votes. I just want to set the stage for people who did not rewatch the episode.

[00:21:36] So that we see a lot from Steven's perspective in the start of the episode where Steven is feeling like, hey, if we don't stop Joe, Joe's going to win. And this is also this is just like what happened to me in Survivor Token Chains with JT. So if we don't stop Joe now, he's going to run away with this thing. And he's looking for allies to help make the case. We see him talking with Sierra who's like, great, big move. I love it.

[00:22:04] And so he's really excited about this. And I think that he feels like that he can get some traction on this. Did Steven talk to you directly about going after Joe? I'm trying to remember. I don't. Had you even met Steven Fishback before the merge? I don't think you were. Were you on a tribe with him when you got swapped? You were on the last. I was on the third buy on, which was only a day or two. Yeah, those that third swap tribe. We were not together very long, which is why we were all very surprised.

[00:22:34] When we received the note that it was going to be the merge. I really had not talked to Steven that much at that time. Not because I didn't want to, but I just didn't know where he sat. Like it really did feel like that buy on group was firmly together. So it was difficult to even tap into or find cracks in there. But Sierra had been with buy on. So she knew Steven better. So I believe that she was talking to Steven and working with him and then bringing that back to me.

[00:23:02] But I don't know that I had a conversation prior to that with Steven. After that, we talked. But I don't think that he approached me with the plan because I really hadn't built trust. It was just, you know, no one had really played with me that much. And at the reward challenge, Steven is especially upset because he feels like, OK, he's been talking to Sierra about this move to vote out Joe.

[00:23:26] And then Joe ends up being part of the group that goes on the reward challenge with you all and Sierra. And he feels as though that this opportunity to, you know, build this wedge against Joe has been lost. And now Joe is going to make all these allies and he'll never be able to get Joe out. That was his feeling. Yes. Yeah. He really vocalizes this.

[00:23:56] He really expresses this. But I don't know how much truth was really in that. I think that Steven maybe was letting past trauma infiltrate his thinking. I mean, I'm not in Joe's brain, so I don't know. But I don't remember before that it really being this idea that we would go after Steven Fishback. That kind of just popped up. Yeah.

[00:24:19] But it's interesting because when we just watched in season 50 where it was really such a theme for season 50 of players dealing with their past experiences and things that were reminding them of things that happened to them before. Like we're really watching Steven go through this. He was really going through it. He was. Abby Maria is mocking him and calls him Debbie Downer. Yeah, exactly. Get over it. Get over it.

[00:24:47] Abby, you missed a career as a doctor. Your bedside manner is second to none. I love it. As much as Steven felt like his parade was rained on, here comes Hurricane Abby coming through. Like, OK, stop complaining. And Abby had so many good moments. That's the reason that Andrew Savage gave the bird as he was leaving. It's like, at least you made the jury. She is just so real. She was so real.

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[00:27:29] Kelly, I want to ask you about the actual reward challenge because we see a thing where if this was Survivor 50, we would have definitely gotten a flashback, but we really try to make a meal out of, hey, you're about to do a rowing challenge. And Kelly Wigglesworth, do you remember when you had a rowing challenge and you didn't win it in Survivor Borneo? And they're really trying to call back to that.

[00:27:56] But it's nothing like that challenge that she did, which was... That part was an individual challenge. It was pre-merge, but she had to do a one-on-one rowing against Jervis. Right. But you know what's funny? I believe the first challenge of Cambodia was also a callback to Kelly Wigglesworth rowing challenge. So they were reheating the nachos on their own season. I don't know what was going on there. At least they acknowledged it.

[00:28:25] You know, that was nice to have it feel like it was a purposeful historical throwback to be like, hey, this is a callback. Hey, you'd think that this might be the umpteenth balancing a ball on something challenge. But we did this all the way back in season 29. So technically, we're just using Survivor history to our advantage. Yeah. No one cared, by the way. Yeah. They couldn't even get her to seem like she was that worked up about it. Well, she wasn't worked up about much. Yeah. Did she seem excited in the moment?

[00:28:55] No. No. We didn't get much emotion from Kelly Wigglesworth. Yeah. Throughout the season. I really feel like it was a disappointing return for her where I think everybody's just so excited where it was season 31 and we were going to have, okay, we're going to bring back Kelly from the first season. But yeah, she was just so like, I'm sure she's lovely, but she just seems so flat across the season. Well, yeah.

[00:29:23] And she got in trouble, the first tribal council, for that exact thing. Jeff Probst said, if you only give yes or no answers at tribal council, I'll just stop talking to you. I mean, to be fair, it was the Wild West during those Borneo tribal councils, right? Where Jeff's like, is there an alliance? They're like, I don't know what you're talking about, Jeff. Give me the conch. That's how I can talk. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:42] I think the vibe I got from Wigglesworth is that she came on and really wanted to do the physical thing, wanted to do the survival thing, but the scheming and the strategizing didn't appeal to her as much. That's the vibe that I got. Yeah. That tracks. That tracks. I'm just surprised that they talked to her to get ready for the season, right?

[00:30:11] Like, there were extensive interviews, right? Like, I guess they were so excited to have her. They were excited to have her. There was no chance that Kelly Wigglesworth was not making that cast, by the way. The fans voted her in. Voted her in. Yeah. Was there any talk about that during the season, especially at this point? Was there a larger meta conversation of like, listen, the fans voted for this. We better make it an exciting season.

[00:30:40] There can't be a big alliance. Fans will be disappointed. No. It didn't really come up that I can remember. No. Okay. We just wanted to break it up because, well, I wanted to break it up because it was pissing me off, to be honest. All right. Well, let's talk about then where things go after everybody comes back from the reward challenge.

[00:31:04] Because you start to get that Savage has gotten wind that Steven has been talking about Joe. And he calls him diabolical. And disgusting. Yes. It's just disgusting. And I think that in fairness to Andrew, that he's walked back a lot of this. I think he has reversed course on his allegiances here of how he should have handled this.

[00:31:31] But he's very down on Steven for doing this. He's very down on Steven. But I think this is where this hierarchy comes in. Right? Like, you can clearly see that Savage feels closer to Joe, wants to protect Joe. So the second that Steven even suggests it, it's like, oh, Steven's out. So Steven was never in the larger group, at least not when it came to Savage. Yeah. So.

[00:31:58] So I feel like there was a lot of talking about at the time how, like, Savage was this big villain. You know, the asshole of Survivor Cambodia. Having interacted with him as long as you did during the season and, you know, when you were on the jury for that short portion of time. Do you feel like the edit embellished any of that? Is this a case where we saw some of those worst moments? Or is this a bit true to life as to how Savage was actually out there? I think this is how he was out there.

[00:32:23] But I didn't I didn't see it coming across as that much of a villain. I think he just like I said, he was in this power position. Yeah. And so that power to me is what was coming out. Almost that I'm untouchable type mentality. That's how I felt when I was out there. I mean, I feel like he's sort of like bringing in the honor and integrity alliance of season 50 of like, OK. He's even sitting on the hammock, much like Coach does. Right. Very similar.

[00:32:53] And then the people who are doing any sort of backbiting, like it's very easy to villainize those people. They're not playing with integrity. And so these are the people we need to get rid of. Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's a great call out. Yeah. OK. In the immunity challenge, Joe says it's a it's a must win for Joe. And he does face off against Keith Nail, who was a master of any challenge that involved balls.

[00:33:21] And he does end up going to the end against Joe. But Joe ends up winning this immunity challenge. Not a shock. Not a shock. No. The end was a little climactic, though, because I thought it was like Joe's kind of jerking his balls around. He's steady as a rock, like carved marble. But it turns out that the true way to prevail with your balls intact is to jostle him a little bit, you know, get things exciting.

[00:33:51] I don't know. Was it just shocking there in the moment? I mean, he's also had won the challenge a couple of seasons ago as well. So we did not get a repeat winner here. I'm trying to remember my feeling. I think I went into every individual immunity challenge assuming that Joe would win because he was really good at everything. So I I'm trying to recall. I mean, it was more surprising that Keith was at the end. Yeah. The fact that Keith did so well in all these immunities was incredible.

[00:34:17] And so I did not go into that challenge thinking, oh, the end will be Keith and Joe. And it was. But Joe winning was not surprising. I guess there must have been a thinking that Joe was kind of unstoppable because I feel like he does win what the first four or five immunity challenges of his season, which is only the season before that you just watched. And then you're out there with him. And now he's won what the first two individual immunities.

[00:34:44] So he's like he's at this point, he's six out of seven, I guess, in individual immunity challenges right now. And so I think that that must have like he can't win all of them, right? We thought he might. Yeah, I thought he might. That definitely started to come up.

[00:35:03] And that was a talking point around Joe is that, well, when he does lose, maybe we should take the shot because he if anyone has the ability to win every immunity challenge to the end, it is actually Joe. Yeah, because, yeah, I mean, well, he's he's an interesting like type as a well in a lot of ways. But as as an athlete, you know, he's he's strong, but he's also like very flexible and limber and able to do endurance challenges, too.

[00:35:32] So he's like actually like really talented at carnival games. Like he's he's really good at anything that survivor throws at you. It's not like he's just like Jonathan where he's just like big, like he's good at all of these things. Well, dare I say he might be one of the most like underrated challenge beasts. Like I know that he's his name certainly gets thrown around in the Aussie equation, more so of like the survivalist good old boy type of trope.

[00:35:58] But like, yeah, he wins six immunity challenges in his first two seasons, which is wild. Some people haven't won six immunity challenges across six seasons of Survivor. Yeah, I think the fact that he did a lot of yoga and meditation also helped because to your point, he had that just the natural physical piece. Right. Like he's a very fit person. He's tall. He's he's got like strong legs, arms, everything. But because he had that mental piece as well, he could balance for a long periods of time.

[00:36:28] He could focus where I think that's where a lot of people lose on those kind of balancing ball challenges or other things where you have something on your head. Yeah. Is you just lose focus in a second and it's over. And Joe just was always so locked in. Not only that, the dude was good at puzzles. He's good at puzzles. Like I didn't even say that. Yeah. Like how is it? How are you good at it made no sense? It was crazy. I don't I it was what? Yeah. Yeah. There's not a lot of people.

[00:36:55] I don't know if there's anybody else that I could think of that can just do all of it. Like, you know, Parvati is, you know, master at doing these like endurance challenges. But it's not like necessarily like if there's, you know, the tree puzzle that she's going to be able to ace that. And like he could do all of those things. Yes, he could. He was sort of like the skeleton key of that era of Survivor.

[00:37:17] I'm curious, though, do you think if Keith's balls had prevailed here and Joe is vulnerable, do you think the votes would have come together to get him out? Or like how much do you think Joe winning immunity really threw a wrench into the plans that Steven was making? I don't think Joe was going home here. I don't think that the Bayon group was ready to make a move against one another. They had three people on the bottom. That is the right move, in my opinion. Like you take somebody else out, then you can start going against each other.

[00:37:44] I do understand where Savage was coming from and why are we going, you know, against our own at this point in time or Jeremy, you know, both of them. So I don't think it actually would have happened. Yeah. Okay. So Joe wins the immunity. Steven is upset. He calls him the white whale. And Savage, we see him. This is when he's in the hammock mode.

[00:38:10] He's going to start telling Kelly and Tasha, Kelly Wigglesworth, hey, Steven has to go. And they bring in Jeremy. And he's like, what? What are we doing? I don't like this. Don't like this. Doesn't want Steven going anywhere. He's got Steven in his back pocket. Savage says, he says that Steven wants to be the guy. The greatest strategist in the history of survival.

[00:38:36] No, I think he said that Steven says he's the greatest strategist in the history of survival. Which is wild. I don't know. You just spent a lot of time with him, Kelly. But I can't imagine Steven Fishback, Mr. like self-defacing man himself, would have ever said that publicly, especially in mixed companies. I never heard it. He said it to me. Not on a podcast, though. Okay. As a joke? No, offline. He said it. No.

[00:39:05] You just exposed him, though. He said that in private. Now everyone knows. He says he's the greatest strategist in the history of the show. I love this next part because Joe comes to you red hat in hand to tell you, like, hey, just so you know, the plan's not working. And you have a very feisty confessional where you say that you couldn't do it because it's like the spiritual sequel to Katie Gallagher's We Can't Have a Woman's Alliance because Karen sucks.

[00:39:34] You say Joe doesn't have any balls. And now he's dead to you. Yeah, I had to take a little page out of the Abby Maria playbook there with the he's dead to me. I was spending too much time with Abby. She was rubbing off on me, which is not a bad thing. But the thing that was frustrating for me is that I had I the vote before I voted with Joe and Keith to prove that I would work with them. We did have this plan. But Joe folds very quickly from my experience with him when everyone else doesn't want to do it.

[00:40:01] Like he's not the person that's going to stand out and say, let's make a new group. He's going to go with whatever the larger group is saying. And this bleeds into the next. I mean, I played another season with him and he was voted out. I said not to get into that season, but I literally looked at him. I was like, you're doing the same thing you did in Cambodia. You are going to get voted out. These people are lying to you. And he was like, I'm going to I'm just going to prove my loyalty. And I'm like, I can't. And so that is what I was feeling is that Joe, like you have this other group that's willing to work with you.

[00:40:32] These people at some point are going to go against you because they're already saying your name. So why don't you want to see what we have here? And he just kind of went with them. So that is where my frustration came from, because we had a plan all day. And then it switched at the last minute. And I was mad. Yeah. So could you just talk through.

[00:40:55] So in the episode, after Savage talks to Joe, we see him go talk to you and Kelly Wigglesworth. And he says, hey, Savage wants Steven gone. And you all are like, OK, bet. Let's go. And then he has to come back and walk it back. They actually plans not on. Is that how it went down from your perspective? Yes.

[00:41:19] So I think when he was talking to Wigglesworth and myself, I believe that was a conversation in the morning. So it's difficult. So before the before the immunity challenge. Yes. To my from my recollection, from my memory, which many years ago. But I'm pretty sure that was in the morning because we went into that thinking we just need fish back to not win. That's why it was also like, Joe, you know, I don't think you need to win.

[00:41:49] Am I confusing myself now? But I'm pretty sure that was in the morning. And then after we came back is when all this hammock talk started and all these things started changing. And obviously, we're going to tribal council. So there's not a lot of time if you're changing the plan. Now, I don't have a lot of time to figure out what I'm doing because you guys have already decided. And Joe, you didn't even consult with me. So which, again, just tells me where I am. Within your hierarchy. And that was what had me very frustrated.

[00:42:19] So he has to walk it back. And then I'm not sure if it was you or Sierra that said, OK, so it's one of us then. I said, OK, so it's me tonight. I think in that afternoon, we're cleaning the pots. Joe is there. Wigglesworth is there. And then I think that Sierra and I were both there also asking what's going on after all this scrambling around camp. Obviously, we knew something had changed. It was very obvious that something had changed. And that's when I said, OK, so is it me?

[00:42:49] And he replied, I don't know yet. Which is a lie. Yes. Yes. Let's get into this because actually the thing that surprised me the most rewatching this episode is that they actually don't set up that you're the target. They really make it incredibly enigmatic to us as well. Like, could be Wentworth. Could be Sierra. And Sierra, for what it's worth, I think, has had the bigger edit of the past couple episodes.

[00:43:14] Last episode was the one where she was just assigned to throw a little like, you know, little bomb into the middle of camp by bringing like, oh, Savage lied about this. And then he completely rebuts it and she becomes public enemy number one. So what was the sign for you that it was you? Was it that conversation with Joe or were there other warning signs?

[00:43:32] And can I just add that if this was to speak to the editing and the stylistic differences, that if this was the new era, I don't think we would get to this tribal council without a confessional like, hey, I have my idol. If anything happens tonight, I might play it, but we'll have to see how it goes. Yeah, they definitely would let us know that that's happening. Yes. So this was all in that scramble before tribal.

[00:44:00] So I, I went to Keith and I said, because I already felt like, okay, if Joe is, he's not being direct with me and telling me that it's me, but I know that there's a new plan. So is it me or is it Sierra? It wasn't going to be Abby at that point. It was definitely going to be one of us. He wouldn't tell me, but I felt that it might be me just because of how he was acting.

[00:44:22] So then I went to Keith because I still had Keith from this past, you know, alliance, whatever it was, this voting with him for the cast vote. And I said, Keith, I said, who are you voting for? And he started to write a K in the sand. So I knew that Keith was voting for me. So now I have two people that I believe are voting for me that I thought I may be working with, or there was a chance I was working with.

[00:44:47] So then at that point I realized, okay, well, they're probably going to do a split vote on me and Sierra because why wouldn't you do a split vote? And that's really how I knew. Now Savage tells the story that apparently he says at one point, Joe told him later in the season that Joe told me getting on the boat, going to tribal council. I don't recall that happening.

[00:45:16] If it did, I just don't remember it. But for me, it was the Keith communication, nonverbal communication. Yeah. So Keith Nail, you asked him who are you voting for tonight? And he started to spell your name to you? Yes. Do you think he was checking to make sure how you spelled it? He didn't want to be rude? I'm going to write this out. You let me know if I got too many L's in it. I don't know. I don't know what he was doing. So Kelly, you didn't know that night that it was going to be for you.

[00:45:45] You thought it was a 50-50 and it's now or never. Yeah. I knew that I was getting votes. I definitely knew that I was getting votes. But going back to that previous tribal council, I feel that the only reason that Keith said that to me is because I had still kept a relationship with him. Yeah. And so that was the whole reason that I voted out cast was to kind of try and continue to prove to them that I'm still working with you. So had I not done that, I don't know if Keith would have given me the heads up. I'm not. I don't know.

[00:46:14] Did you have much of a relationship with Keith from San Juan del Sur? Not really. No. I know we started out on the same tribe, but Keith was always really quiet. He was never mixed up in the conversations. Keith was the guy, just tell me who we're voting for and that's who I'll vote for if I'm with the numbers. He was not scheming or trying to come up with plans. And maybe that's the way to play Survivor, honestly. Because he would just be out there in his cowboy boots just walking down the beach chilling.

[00:46:43] He'd be like, okay, yep, that sounds good. It's like, okay. There's a really, I honestly feel like in retrospect, not to take all the way things back to reverse this entire Toto back around to the very first thing we talked about. But like, I kind of feel like in retrospect that that Tuck Tuck scene is like kind of the quintessential Keith Nail scene. Where obviously I think he has this whole deep run in San Juan del Sur.

[00:47:07] But like, I feel like that's kind of his bottled essence where, yes, he famously said Survivor is not fun and going on a cruise is fun. But it seemed like he was having a lot of fun there. And I think like his effervescence and the very unique spirit he presented, especially in that era and especially in that very hyper gamey season. It's so like nicely. I know he didn't have the biggest edit in that season because again, he wasn't involved heavily in the gameplay. But like, that's a nice little nugget. I think in the midst that helps us remember even all these years later, just how special he was. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:47:37] And the thing with Keith that's cool is that because he's not that lying, manipulative person. When Keith Nail writes a K in the sand, you know, he's not lying to you. So I mean, to be fair, there were like three other Ks on the tribe, though, too. So you're very lucky it was that you had that interpretation correctly. Well, who else would he have been voting for? Yeah. But to go back to Keith. Yeah.

[00:48:03] I think that some of the most iconic Keith moments, of course, you know, we all remember Stick to the Plan. But, you know, he had a lot of moments on rewards that you remember where that he I remember him in the at the massage table in San Juan del Sur where his face was down. He went on the taco overload reward where he's like telling he's like, you know, Wes, he's a good boy. And he had all of that.

[00:48:31] So I think these moments of Keith Nail like outside of the game really do resonate when you think about him. Yeah, absolutely. And Keith Nail and I got drunk at a reward with Spencer. That's right. At the end of Cambodia. So if you if you if anyone rewatches that episode and you wonder why we were all like was trying to pay attention to the lovely dance, we had a lot of red wine. Yeah. So I'm surprised you can get up and dance at that point.

[00:49:00] I was trying to be respectful. Well, it's also interesting not to again go back to the scene too much, but I feel like an example a lot of people looked at, especially at the time as to like survivor editing and how game body it was is the air is confession. Or again, it's this wonderfully, you know, character focused moment towards the end of the Keith and the tuck tuck. But it does get preceded by Sarah being like, I love rewards because this is when we make alliances and talk game.

[00:49:27] And I certainly remember at the time a lot of discussion about like, this is what reward should be. You know, reward should be enjoying the culture and having fun moments. It doesn't need to be about trying to form alliances of six. But that's what we did. We did form an alliance of six that was not real. But but it's Stephen saying the same thing at camp. He's saying that I'm sad, not because I didn't get the food, because I didn't get the chance to go make alliances. It was a very gamey season.

[00:49:56] And I know that that has been the complaint by some people who watched it, that it did feel like it was just game at all times. And that's because it was. But some people gamed harder than others. And then you had Keith Nail, who was just hanging out, enjoying the rain and doing his thing. He was like the dad of the camp. Yeah. Can we talk about that for a second, actually?

[00:50:20] Because, yeah, I think, listen, we are we are firmly between eras right now in Survivor. But do you feel like in retrospect, especially Kimbo, it was one of the most monumental shifts we've seen in the show? Because it doesn't get talked about here. It gets talked about in the merge episode. But the entire idea of voting blocks, I feel like is a at least advertised as a completely new facet to the show.

[00:50:46] And nowadays, I think we just purely blanket the idea and treat it as just a normal facet of the game. I don't know enough history off the top of my head to think about seasons prior, but it did feel like it was new because every vote you would maybe bring somebody else in just to get the next target out. And when you're working with today, you may not be working with tomorrow, but there was a clear understanding that this was just for this vote.

[00:51:14] And it does seem like that happens more often now, but no one was taking stuff personally. It wasn't like, oh, my alliance member went against me. Well, I know that I think that happened with Tasha and Jeremy at one point. But for the most part, the people that were within the voting blocks on any given vote, you understood that when you got back to camp, that could change tomorrow. At Zoc Talk, we know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game. Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry, birthdays.

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[00:52:34] So I have recently, after Aubrey won season 50, we watched Survivor co-wrong. And it's filmed before this season airs, but it's aired after. And I have to say, from watching that and watching this, I do feel like that co-wrong fits more in, if there was a dividing line, I feel like that co-wrong fits more in what happens before this.

[00:53:03] And I feel like that this is a better setup for what's going to come after this. And really, then the next season that will be shot is going to be Millennials vs. Gen X, which is going to kick off the forever Fiji era of Survivor. But I do feel like- And we rebranded trust clusters instead of voting blocks. Yeah, I think that this season feels more akin to that and everything that comes after that

[00:53:29] than co-wrong, which is really just a much more like, the votes are more emotional than this season where we are really getting into the weeds strategically. It was more emotional season 32? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, season co-wrong, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it didn't feel like, I don't remember that season off the top of my head, but it didn't feel

[00:53:58] that in Cambodia, if you were voted out, there was not a lot of, well, there was some emotion. Yes. Ask Andrew Savage. But I just think a lot of the time, you were just trying to be a part of the group, the largest group of the night. And it was just kind of that understanding, which is also what made it so crazy, because everyone was scrambling at all times. There was never a time at camp on really any day where we just said, oh, the top group's going to have the votes.

[00:54:28] And that's it. It wasn't. It changed all the time. And so you were just scrambling to be in the group that had the numbers. Yeah. Well, what's also so interesting is that I feel like this was an incredibly meta shift for the show as well. I mean, we talked about it before. It even gets talked about on the previously on that. The real ace in the hole in terms of editing Second Chance was having everyone talk about what their redemption was. Yeah. Because nobody who came into the season had won the game previously.

[00:54:57] And so obviously there was something that they needed to improve on. And I feel like this was like the first returning player season where we got a lot of talk about previous seasons. I mean, Rob, you were out there for the first one. And I'm sure there was plenty of talk about how like, oh, well, last time this happened for me, so I can't do it again. I'm sure that happened as well in Micronesia and in Heroes vs. Villains. But Cambodia really kind of centered the narrative around that. And I feel like we've seen that carry forward in Game Changers and Winners of War and especially, as you were mentioning, in Survivor 50.

[00:55:26] Yeah, that's very true. I think it was also such a special season and set that stage because it was a fan vote. Yeah. So, I mean, you really, from the very beginning of the season, are setting this stage of you need to play and it needs to be fun and unique and you need to give the audience something good. And you asked earlier, Mike, do we talk about it?

[00:55:50] We didn't really talk about it in game, but I remember at the final Tribal Council when we got the pizza and the champagne, they loved Cambodia. Like they, at the end of it, they loved it. I remember Jeff saying, this is one of the best seasons we believe we've ever done. Obviously, it's not been edited yet, but they loved it. So. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about going into that Tribal Council.

[00:56:12] The only setup we get for this Tribal Council is that Sierra wants everybody, hey, they need to wake up and play the game. We need a miracle tonight. And little does Sierra know, a miracle is coming. And we get the Tribal Council and Sierra opens it up and she says, you know, there are four people that are running this game and she's going to name them. The four people are Jeremy, Savage, Tasha, Steven, or Joe.

[00:56:45] Well, it was confusing. Yeah. Where, where, what, talk about the Tasha because of all this, because Tasha, her, and it sort of disappears in the second half of the game. What was your perception of the position she had? Tasha and Jeremy were very close. So they were always talking strategy. There would be a lot of times at night when we would all go to sleep and I would wake up and they would be gone from the shelter talking. Obviously, we know now that, or I knew that Spencer was involved in that as well at some points, but they were very close.

[00:57:15] They were working as a duo. And so we felt that she was included in that larger group because she was also close to Savage. They spoke a lot. I would say that Jeremy, Savage, and Tasha, from what I remember, had a lot of conversations. They would sit on the beach a lot and talk. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, we haven't talked a lot about Spencer in this episode. Where did you see him in all of this? Oh, Spencer. Spencer was so confusing.

[00:57:46] Spencer was such a wild card at that time, in my opinion. I started on a tribe with Spencer. We were working together. We went through that rocky start where he and Shireen were on the bottom, and then I had to kind of separate myself from them. And then we came back together at the merge, and I wanted to revisit that relationship that we had. But I don't know that he ever fully trusted me after the beginning stages of the game and what happened over on the original Takeo.

[00:58:13] So I tried to rebuild that, but I don't know that it ever truly got back to the place it was in the first couple of days. And I thought that maybe he would work with myself, Joe, Keith, and then the girls, but he never really seemed firm in that. So that was always a wild card for me as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not really clear where he is in this episode either. Yeah.

[00:58:44] Do you get the feeling, because Sierra, as Rob mentioned, is going to make for the umpteen time the argument of, like, people need to wake up and start playing, which Jeff sort of brings up as, like, it's all well and good for you to say as someone who needs numbers to flip over. Do you believe that, like, Sierra authentically felt that argument, or do you think it was just an easy, like, she's got to say something to try to convince people to flip? I think it was both.

[00:59:06] I think she was speaking to Kimmy, Kelly Wigglesworth, those kind of, maybe the Spencer, you know, you're kind of in the middle. Where do you land? If I've named these four or five people who are at the top, what does that mean for you as we get further in this game? If you're losing us as numbers, you are not going to have anyone else to kind of pull in to get rid of these top dogs. They're just going to walk their way to the end. So that is the argument that she was trying to make.

[00:59:33] Obviously, Kimmy felt close to Jeremy, felt close to Fishback. So she didn't, they didn't feel that they were on the bottom. But for us who are on the bottom, we felt like we could see it quite clearly because of the conversations and the way that people would break off into groups. It seemed quite obvious to us. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about Sierra, who is here really trying to shake things up.

[00:59:56] Mike, I feel like when you did the season 50, and I forget at the moment what you called it. The wish list, yeah. The wish list, right? She came up, she came up a lot, right? As somebody who would have been a potential 50 person. Yeah, I mean, there was a, people forget about how Survivor contracted Sierra Fever over the course of like that brief two to three year window. We forget because she was sort of like unceremoniously voted off first in Survivor Game Changers.

[01:00:24] But she is like the breakout star of a Survivor blood versus water. Arguably, she voted out her own, her own mom. I'm not sure if you remember. And then she comes on here and obviously the appearance is going to be less memorable, though it's difficult. You know, it's always going to pale in comparison to that. But I think that like it's, I remember being very clear at the moment, like production loved Sierra. Yeah. Because I feel like she was the megaphone to put forward the propaganda that was big moves. Yeah.

[01:00:52] And this idea of like, you got to do this stuff if you want to win the game. I don't still think even to this day it's true necessarily. And we often talk even nowadays about how like people make unnecessary resume moves just to make resume moves. But I feel like Sierra not only had this narrative and this game changing thing that quite literally put her on Game Changers. But I feel like she got a lot of stuff. And also, as we see in this episode, she's also like not afraid to raise a little hell either. This is the I did not realize this was the tribal council where we got the iconic gif of her rolling her eyes at Angry Savage.

[01:01:23] And then the whole Internet came after her. Oh, my God. She's rolling her eyes. Like, oh, my goodness. The thing with Sierra is that she isn't afraid to be loud. Yeah. She's not really afraid to be voted out. She doesn't want to be voted out. But she's willing to say what other people maybe won't say. And she is a great survivor player. She's a great strategist. She's I loved working with her. I would rather have her on my side. Yeah. And Mike, did you get the sense after this vote that she thought she was going or did she think you were going?

[01:01:52] I don't know that we knew. We haven't really talked about we kind of jump forward to tribal council, but we didn't talk about how we came to the decision at camp for it to be savage. So when we realized that Joe was not with us and Keith was not with us and Spencer, we don't know what Spencer is doing. We realize, OK, we really are the three on the bottom.

[01:02:14] So there's a scene that they show in the episode where we're talking on the hammock and we're saying we should all vote the same just just to make a mark or leave a message. Give them a message. I before that scene had pitched Jeremy because I did think that Jeremy was the bigger threat, maybe because I play with him before. I just feel that his social game was better. I felt that people at some point were going to get tired of Savage because he just did sit in the hammock because he kind of had this attitude around camp.

[01:02:43] I thought Jeremy is the one who's holding this all together. They did not go for that. And I obviously couldn't push it any harder because if I push it harder, they would say, why are you pushing for Jeremy? And then I have to tell them I have an idol and I just didn't want to tell anyone I had an idol. So I did want it to be Jeremy because people ask me that all the time. Like, why do you want to be Jeremy? I'm like, I did. But the other girls didn't understand necessarily where I was coming from.

[01:03:07] And Sierra had all of this history with Savage the past three or four days prior to that because of their third swap tribe, because they were kind of going at each other. And so she really wanted to write Savage's name down. The girls obviously didn't know that I was playing an idol. So they thought we were just doing it to tell Savage, like, we haven't forgotten about you and we're still going to make sure that they come after you.

[01:03:32] And so that was the conversation leading into tribal council from our group after we had decided that we didn't have everyone. And that's why we voted for Savage. Yeah. So we can go back to tribal council now. No, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Were there any other names that had come up? Was there any other consideration for anybody else in that alliance? No, it was Savage or Jeremy. But Sierra really wanted Savage. So I had to let her have that one.

[01:04:01] It's still like Savage and Jeremy were working together. They were the two strongest. They were the ones that were holding everything together. So I was OK with Savage. It wasn't a situation where I wanted Jeremy bad enough to give up the information that I had because we needed to get both of them out eventually. But I had to had to let her had to let her win that one. Yeah.

[01:04:22] It is fascinating to think about how the game unfolds without Jeremy there if he ends up getting taken out because that now here is Savage. And now that Jeremy is sort of like the cooler head keeping the Stephen and Joe sides together. And so how does this splinter where now, OK, Joe is still going to be with Savage. But does Stephen have anybody?

[01:04:50] Is he able to keep Spencer closer? Stephen doesn't get an idol played on him. That's for sure. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of a lot of questions. But I just didn't feel. I love Abby. I think she's great. But she will spill secrets sometimes unintentionally. And I just didn't feel. I feel comfortable going into that tribal council with Sierra or Abby knowing about the idol.

[01:05:15] I suppose now looking back, eating, sleeping, years removed from it, I could have told Sierra and then we could have together pushed Jeremy. But I still think she wanted Savage because they did have such a distrust there. They just didn't like each other. And so I don't I didn't feel that anything I did was really going to convince her to go after anyone but him. But yeah, the game game would have been completely different. I don't know what would have happened.

[01:05:43] But, you know, in my defense, Jeremy did work with me on a couple of votes in some voting block situations. So, yeah, as soon as as soon as the next vote. So as you're sitting there at tribal council, like you said, you you had a feeling you knew votes were coming to you, even if it wasn't the majority. Did that change at all as tribal council was going along? Like were people saying things or giving you looks or not giving you looks that made you feel like, OK, I might be getting the majority tonight?

[01:06:08] No, I didn't get any indication that that they were all voting for me. No, I knew I was getting some, but I really did assume that they were going to split votes. Yeah, many people. They said the previous episode, they just split the votes. I'm like, we only have three. So you all have however many you have on your side. You can easily decide on a split who you want either way. Mm hmm. So, no, I didn't know it was going to be.

[01:06:36] That's why I was so animated and kind of upset because I felt like even Keith or Joe, maybe they would still vote Sierra with me trying to prove my loyalty to them. And because they still voted for me, I thought, oh, interesting. OK. Yeah. So in this tribal council conversation, you end up mentioning that people are coming to you and talking about things. And Jeff says, hey, why don't you just tell us?

[01:07:06] Why don't you just tell us the person who's coming to you said, well, I might be on the bottom, but I'm not ready to go home yet. And of course, you know, you're not ready to go home yet. Was there any concern that people might not be voting for you then? Do you know what I actually said, Rob? What did you say? I said, I may be on the bottom. No, that was at the end. I said, what if I'm here tomorrow and I have to work with these people? Yes. Yes. That's what I said.

[01:07:36] And then at the end is when I said, I'm not ready to go home yet. And I said that, well, first of all, I said that people were coming to me because I wanted the people who were in the middle that we kept trying to talk about. You're not in the top. I wanted them to realize other things are going on. And I wanted the people on the top to realize there are other conversations. Like it's not all butterflies and rainbows within your group. There definitely are discussions that are happening. So I wanted to plant that seed.

[01:08:05] And then my comment when Jeff really did try to get me to say something, he really wanted me to call the people. I knew that if I called out those people, I might be burning a bridge. And I really meant, what if I'm here tomorrow and I have to play with them? Yeah. And I was. And I apologize for getting two lines of my notes. I ended up merging into one. It's okay. No, it's important. Yeah. This is an important moment. No, it's fine.

[01:08:35] Well, we have to talk about this important moment here. So you knew you were going to play this idol. No matter what. Do you remember the reactions of everyone else when you stood up? Because again, you didn't realize that everyone had voted against you. They certainly did. Yeah, I didn't. So that idol sat in my bag, wrapped in a sock for 19, 20, however many days. Yeah.

[01:09:05] No one checked my bag. So it was wrapped up because I had these big socks. So I kind of wrapped both of them up. So if you would feel it, it just felt like it was two athletic socks packed together. So I was just busy unwrapping the idol from the socks. Hold on a sec, Jeff. Yeah. It's like, hold on, hold on. And I did hear people kind of whispering and saying something. They obviously were surprised. I knew that no one knew that I had it.

[01:09:30] But no, I didn't know until I watched the episode that they all had that crazy reaction. And then obviously I play it and I come back and Sierra has her hand out. And, you know, Cass is like from the jury being very vocal, which you're not supposed to be vocal from the jury. But yeah, it was great. Yeah. Cass was a good juror. She was a good juror. She doesn't get talked about. And we talk about Eliza and talk about Courtney. But Cass was a very expressive juror. She was great. Yes.

[01:09:58] And she and Andrew together, like the mother and father of Ponderosa coming in as the first two jury members. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. If you need reason number 563 why it's a devastation, we no longer have Ponderosa videos. Everyone watch this Ponderosa because it is so delightfully awkward. Because if you don't remember, like Savage gives Cass the cold shoulder for the better part of a day. And then once they reconcile, Cass decides to really just warm over the relationship by

[01:10:25] talking about how when she was in law school, she had a crush on Andrew Savage to try to mend all offenses. Yeah. Oh, they were funny together. But in that moment, I still didn't know what the votes were going to be. And we still only had three votes. So if they split the votes, I think, what was it? 12 at that time. So five, four. We still didn't have the number. So it really wasn't until that sixth or seventh vote flipped over. And I think I said something like, oh, interesting. I was like, oh, okay.

[01:10:54] And that's why we had such a massive reaction when it was Savage. Because it was like, oh, my God, like they all they all voted for me. We're actually going to get. Oh, my God. We're actually going to get Savage out of here. That's why we were so shocked. It wasn't just the idol play. It was the fact that like, oh, my God, I played the idol and they voted for me. So now I can't even believe that with three votes, we're getting Andrew Savage out of here. That's crazy. Yeah. And it is wild that they don't split the votes. I know that they had a hard time with splitting the votes at the previous one.

[01:11:24] And Stephen has talked about this. And he said that, you know, there's just that many people. It was hard to wrangle everybody to be able to get the vote split to happen. I mean, sounds like an excuse to me. First world problem. Yeah. What were we doing all day? We were doing nothing. They were too busy fighting about voting out Stephen or voting out Joe. They were. They were. And I remember there was a secret scene. It's been deleted now.

[01:11:51] But there was a secret scene on YouTube that it was everyone talking, saying there's no way that Kelly Wentworth has an idol. So they truly believe that I didn't have an idol. And I think that also led them to feeling comfortable enough to putting all the votes. Also, because Cass didn't have an idol, the tribal council before. So you're thinking, OK, well, Cass didn't have one. We kind of gambled with that. It's like, Kelly, when would she have found it? Because I was never. That's another thing.

[01:12:18] I was never caught looking for it because of the way that I did it in the beginning. Yeah. They had no idea. Yeah, because they've never been hit into challenges before that season. No, but even when I found the clue, I did it on day one and two. And I would go out and I was the person. I said, oh, I'll go out and get the palm fronds. I'll go out and get the coconuts. And so when I would go out, I would look for it. And people were going out with me to begin with. But then they didn't want to they didn't want to go further. So the further you have to go out to get the palm fronds and the coconuts, people are like, oh, I'm tired. I'm just going to stay around camp.

[01:12:46] So by the second hour, I was still getting stuff because we needed it. But no one was out there with me. So when I found it, no, no one suspected that I had it. So like what? They were shelter people. They had to start building shelter. They had to build a shelter. So, yeah, that's why it just all worked out perfectly. To that point, do you feel like how are people looking at you differently after that? But obviously we'll get into like the aftermath of this.

[01:13:11] But like once you return camp, considering how much people underestimated the fact that you had had an idol, how much do you feel like that permanently affected your perception in the game? I think people realize that I was definitely gaming more than they thought I was. I think they saw me as someone that they could potentially work with if they wanted to make a move. I know that was a big thing for Steven. You know, I'm not going to just sit back.

[01:13:37] Like if you guys want to do something, I'm absolutely willing to do it and shake up the game. And I do think that removing Andrew Savage from that situation helped a lot because you had people that were now feeling like, oh, are. Our hammock leader is gone. And now we've I really do feel like maybe they felt free.

[01:13:58] From the Andrew Savage reign in a way, and I'm not saying that in a mean way, but he really did run that beach like the military at times, whereas as. Jeremy was a little more open and welcoming and fun and Savage wasn't. So I think that helped a lot, too. Yeah. Steven still talks about this in the podcast.

[01:14:21] When somebody makes a big move, he talks about how after you your idol play that people just now want to work with the person who did the cool thing. It's like you're the star player who made the winning shot and really buys you a lot when you pull off a move like that. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I wonder, too, if it makes people a little worried. You don't want to be the next Andrew Savage. So do you start working with that person and stay on their good side?

[01:14:50] Or do you take the chance that there's something else up their sleeve? I don't know, because I didn't tell anybody. Nobody knew. So who knows what else may be coming? Yeah. Well, let's speak about the current Andrew Savage here. What did you gauge his reaction was? Like, how much of it was a balance of anger versus surprise versus devastation? Oh, he seemed pissed. He seemed really, really mad. Yeah.

[01:15:18] I was just living in my own excited bubble. So I just felt so happy that it worked out. And then I do remember Abby saying the line about, oh, at least you made the jury, which was the thing he had been saying around camp. Yeah. That he just wanted to make the jury because of his previous season. And so it's just like salt in the wound. You know, I was like, oh, God, Abby. But yeah, I knew he wasn't happy. Yeah.

[01:15:45] Now, did you think about what you were going to say when you played the idol? I don't think so. I was just caught up in the moment. I don't even remember. I've locked out. Rob has a note. Yes. Yes. Which is then when you said, I may be on the bottom, but I'm not ready to go home yet. Yes, that's right. Right. Yeah, that's right. And Sierra said, obviously, this is my favorite moment before they even counted the votes.

[01:16:14] Yeah, well, because we had we had nothing. We were sitting ducks against that group. We had nothing. So this was a shining light. And if they had split the vote, she probably would have gone home. But it was she was asking people to make a move, was asking for something fun to have in a tribal council for it to not be a steamroll. And this was something, an exciting moment. Hope.

[01:16:38] Did anyone point out to you at the time that you had made Survivor history by the most votes nullified by an idol? No, I don't remember it coming up. Not even Spencer or Steven brought it up as a little factoid. I don't think so. I don't recall. No, I don't think so. Maybe they thought it. But because I would argue, honestly, Kelly, that I think this is like a career making Survivor move for you.

[01:17:03] Like, I think that the legacy, the wonderful legacy you've had throughout the entire ecosystem of Survivor. Like, it was amazing, especially having seen, you know, your potential after getting voted up on Samuel Dostoe and obviously like the care you put into the campaign to getting on. Like, it was great watching you in that first half of the season find that idol in the challenge. But I feel like when people talk now about like the badass that is Kelly Wentworth, I feel like this is when it kind of coalesces, you know? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I do.

[01:17:32] And I'm very grateful. It is very fun. It is. I remember watching it and I had a big party and everyone thought that I was getting voted out because I said, oh, let's have a big party. And and then even when we were watching and it was like Wentworth, Wentworth, Wentworth, they're like, what? And then it was like, savage. It was just it was it was just so fun all around. So I do agree with you.

[01:17:57] So obviously didn't didn't do the same thing in season 38, but another idol play later on in 31, which was also awesome. So I think just overall two really cool idol moments and tribal councils that I was a part of. And it is it is fun to hear from fans and to be part of it.

[01:18:16] Yeah. And I do think that this is going to change the way that future players are going to think about the idol, at least all through the 30s, where I think that the survivor players are going to come to survivor and they all want to have their Wentworth moment. They want to find the idol. They want to keep it a secret. You're going to see, you know, a person like Ben go on to win the game, doing a lot of things that when he's everybody's against him and playing the idol.

[01:18:47] Certainly, you know, Rick eventually is going to be playing the idols the same way. And it does. It's not really the same in the new era, but I think it really like define the 30s. I love that. That's so fun. I don't really think about it that way because it's just it's just me. It was just a moment and just trying to save myself. But that's cool. I like that. Yeah. I mean, how do you look on that?

[01:19:10] Because last year we did, you know, a fan vote, something you're familiar with, of like the most iconic moments in Survivor history. And I believe Wentworth Will Not Count came in at number five. Wow. How do you feel about that? That's pretty cool. I do remember that night when I watched it. I had so many messages of people being like, what the heck? This is crazy. I was like screaming on my couch. I was like, I was screaming, too. And I knew what happened. So this was this was amazing.

[01:19:38] I think it was just it was the perfect storm of them not splitting the vote of it being this large alliance. And then we went against them and it was Savage who had kind of had, like you said earlier, this villain episode or he was leading up to this. It was just the perfect storm of a perfect moment. And I love it. It was great. And I love the fans love it. That's all you want is a good moment. Fun TV.

[01:20:04] Yeah, I think it's a good representation of like, again, you think you're down and out, but then you're able to pull something out of your pocket and be able to completely topple the hierarchy. And yeah, as much as we talk about like, well, in Cambodia, any vote can go any which way. It is interesting to think about, like, let's say you don't have that in your your jean shorts and you end up getting voted out here.

[01:20:26] Like, does it turn into a bit of a buy on steamroll, you know, and the fact that this came at a necessary time that as much as Stephen and others had been talking about, like, this is a brand new evolution to the game where everyone's working with everyone. It does seem like looking at the rest of the season. This was the crack to really split the damn wide open. I definitely think it was. I think had I gone that night, it does seem like Sierra or Abby would go maybe Sierra next and then maybe they go after each other and it completely changes the season.

[01:20:54] I do think that that is the case. Yeah. Yeah. This is just a super fun episode to go back and watch from a super fun part of Survivor's history where it just feels so different than what we're used to in the new era. Just even like the things like the reward challenge and even like going on the reward that you went on where it just is different than what we're used to now. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:23] That's why it's one of my favorite episodes. It just, because the reward was so fun. You had the Keith moment and then we go into this tribal council and there's this blindside. It's just, I personally love the episode so much, not just because I'm a part of the whole thing. I just think to your point, it just, it's, it does give a different energy than a lot of the Survivor that we're used to now. And we just, we just don't get, I talk all the time in seasons where the rewards, they all feel the same.

[01:21:53] Like the seasons all blend together. All the rewards are the same. They go to the sanctuary. They're sitting at camp. Like they've just cut back the budget so much that you don't get these super memorable moments, even on a reward. You just, you don't get it anymore. It makes me sad. Can I say one more thing too? Please. That I, I think we talked about earlier. So after the conversation with Joe, where I said, is it going to be me? And then I talked to the girls about who we're going to vote.

[01:22:23] I think the rest of the day I acted really sad. Yes. Like I knew that it was going to, it was going to be me. Abby Downer. Yes. I acted. I was like, okay, Kelly, you, because I didn't want to give any indication that I was safe. So I wanted them to think Kelly knows it's her, you know, let's just make her day the best that it can be.

[01:22:48] We had, I think the rice, something about the rice, it either fell in the dirt or we had ants or something. And so we had to sort the rice. And so I was just sitting there down, like helping everyone sort the rice. And I know that Steven says now that that should have been, he should have known at that point that I, I wasn't going anywhere because I was willing to help them with the rice. But I would have, I really would have done that anyway.

[01:23:18] I didn't just do it because I was going to be there tomorrow. Um, but I really was like the whole time, everything I did, there was a reason behind it. Everything I did leading up to that tribal, I really tried to sell that. I was just sad and it's okay guys. It's been fun. I get it. You guys are a big group. I'm, you know, like I really, really did try to sell that. So I think that helped. Maybe I'm delusional in that thought, but I think it all came together beautifully. Well, it's interesting though, cause you talked about that.

[01:23:48] This was a season again, this sort of put forward a bit of an Arab survivor of like the good sportsmanship quality of it, right? Of like, Hey, it's just a game. Good move. And so you kind of already subscribing to that mentality, maybe put people in more of a complacent mindset of like, okay, she's fine going. I think we could throw her vote onto her. It's totally fine. Yeah. I just didn't want to be gaming anymore. Cause I didn't, I felt like, okay, they've already kind of told me that it's that I'm going to get votes in a way. So like, if it is me, it's okay. Yeah. That, that kind of, that kind of thought.

[01:24:16] So I, I, maybe that helped. Maybe, I don't know. We'd have to ask everybody else that was out there, but I think that helps sell it too. So maybe that's also why they didn't feel they needed to split the votes because I was just a dead man walking. I'm just trying to think of the people that were still in the game at this point that we haven't really talked about. I don't think we've mentioned Kimmy at all. What was it like playing with Kimmy? Kimmy and I didn't really work together much until the end of the game when she finally wanted to make a move against Jeremy.

[01:24:45] And then we obviously get that other travel council with the zero votes, but Kimmy was very close to Steven, very close to Jeremy. So we were cordial, but we never really had that working relationship. I do think that taking her on the family reward and, and she talked about her father coming out and how she really wanted. That was kind of for like Andrew Savage wanted to make the merge. Kimmy wanted the family visit with her dad.

[01:25:09] And so I think that after that, when we had that reward together, we kind of turned a corner in terms of being closer and wanting to work together. That's why they should bring back the family visit. Oh, they should bring back a lot of stuff, Michael, to be honest. Well, it's so interesting. And I wonder now in retrospect, I'm also thinking about the role that Jeff plays in these episodes. And like, it's so interesting to look at the much more minimized role he played in this Cambodia episode where he really was like there for the challenge, but there was no Matt chat at tribal council.

[01:25:39] You know, he has, he has some questions, but no metaphors are anywhere to be seen. I'm wondering now, is this a product of the 90 minute episodes that of course it's wonderful, you know, that we have so much time dedicated back to camp stuff. But are we in a possible storytelling perspective where like they're kind of leaning more on Jeff to do some of the guiding, even with returning player seasons? That's a good question. I don't, maybe also because it's 26 days, you don't have as much time.

[01:26:08] So in a 39 day season, in a 60 minute or 90 minute episode, you usually have two or three days. So there is a lot of different strategizing and things changing and stuff happening. But when you only have 24 hours in a 90 minute episode, maybe that is, but if we change the rewards and we did things that were more interesting and we, I, yeah, I don't know what the, I don't know. I also think just love, like, I think he's just in his like entertainer era.

[01:26:36] He, he loves doing it. Yeah. Mike, I could tell you from, uh, we just recently rewatched Corong and it really is shocking of how, just how little Jeff there is, uh, especially to open up the season. It's like, okay, Hey, let's go jump off the boat. And then the players are talking to each other about themselves. Uh, we don't spend, you know, the first half hour of the episode with being on the mat and Jeff setting up what survivor is and then doing a challenge for supplies.

[01:27:06] We just get right into it. I think what also might help is the fact that like, we may not realize this, but I mean, Kelly, the next episode after this one is when they introduced a boat steal, which was a brand new game changing advantage at the time. And we had, we had Dan Foley's extra vote the previous season, but before that it was pretty, you know, just like never before seen in the game before. And so the storytelling is able to be focused around like, okay, what are these dynamics rather than, okay, well I have this.

[01:27:35] And I think this person might have this. So I have to be able to utilize that it's a lot less having to explain and remind people what they have. Again, you would like mention it in a blip that you have an idol and that's the only advantage that's in the game at that point. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like though, in the new era, we kind of miss some of the relationships between people? Because I feel that sometimes where I don't understand how people are now working together. And so I didn't always feel like that.

[01:28:04] Maybe they showed more camp life in, in the older seasons or something, but I do feel like we are so focused on the advantages and the journey and the, this, and oh, this person has five things that we, I, sometimes it's a little confusing to me about why certain people are working together or how that came about or an alliance or where it shifted. Or I'll hear players after the season say, I think I remember it was Rachel Lamont. Maybe there was someone after the season.

[01:28:33] She said she was really close to, and we never saw that relationship. Obviously it wasn't important to the entire story, but. But if I think about older era seasons, I just believe we had more camp life stuff. Just more of that, just everyday surviving. Well, I, this is something that I've talked about with the new era where so much of the motivation for why people go home is based on either,

[01:29:00] oh, I need a resume move or this is for that. This person is in a good position or I can't beat them. Or they had a thing where, you know, to stick with that season of like, oh, you know, we should all look at Saul today. Saul is going to win if we don't necessarily vote him out. So I think that it can be very much that we're more focused on like where people are in the game or what they have or that this person is going to win.

[01:29:29] And I think in classic survivor, it was a little bit more about, okay, I don't like this person or like this person is annoying everybody. And so we saw the relationships more that way. Well, and also not to, you know, impugn the modern day seasons too much, but I mean, what I will offer is that if I'm remembering this season correctly, it also has a low key confusing edit sometimes.

[01:29:52] I think because of just how many things are shifting, like, yeah, I mean, I mentioned Tasha, Kimmy, Keith, Abby, they all make deep runs into the game. But like, we don't really hear as much from them in the second half of the season. And so I remember going week to week being a little bit like, okay, there's a lot of really fun stuff going on. But like, I'm not entirely sure where half this cast lies, who they want to go to the end with, etc. That is a good point.

[01:30:18] I think that's a product of the 13 person merge and them trying to show the important stuff and Jeremy's story. And it's tough when you have that many people and you are trying to explain the alliances. And then there are multiple alliances or voting blocks. Now you're trying to tell the story of why those, these people are working together this episode and they weren't last episode.

[01:30:42] I can imagine that is probably difficult from an editing perspective to tell that, especially if some people aren't as important to the story. You know what? Abby, again, I love her, but I think never really driving a vote. Where's, where is she at within these different groups? Um, so yeah. Kelly, is there anything else that you noticed in your rewatch of the survivor second chances?

[01:31:11] I don't think so. It really was just madness out there that merging with that many people when we had that many tribe swaps and to KO taking themselves out because they were a hot mess, hot mess tribe. And it was, it really was just a little crazy out there, but it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Do you feel like you were watching a different version of yourself? I mean, we are a decade removed from this.

[01:31:40] Do you feel like, you know, I'm not saying you don't recognize the person that you're watching, but do you feel like you've changed demonstrably as a person or as even a social strategic player between now and then? I'm watching it. I definitely feel young. I do feel very young, but look at Rob. What do you, do you feel young when you watch your episodes? Oh, I don't really feel bad. I mean, not young now, young then.

[01:32:02] No, I smile because I like to think about like the different versions of ourselves as people. Like one of my favorite thoughts is the idea of, you know, all of the different versions of ourselves, like having a conversation and, you know, what would the 10-year-old version of me say to the 30-year-old version of me and say,

[01:32:31] and I like to also think about what is the 80-year-old version of me think about this? And I feel like that in my personal life, the times where I know a decision is the right one, it's the decision that the 10-year-old me and the 80-year-old me are both like, yes, that is the right decision. And so I just love this as a thought exercise of like, what would you say to yourself when you were younger? Oh, you're actually asking me that question? No, I'm just saying I like to think about that question. Okay, fair enough.

[01:33:00] This is why we made the time trip in the first place. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we do change along the way. The older you get, the more experiences you have, the more people you meet, just all these little things shape who you are and where you're going. So I was much younger at that time. I would probably, I would think I would play different now at the age I'm at, 40 years old versus whatever I was, 30. I first played when I was like 26 or 27.

[01:33:31] Yeah, so I do feel I was much younger, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But your younger self did a pretty damn good job. Yeah. And gave us a classic moment. And I really appreciate you making this time to go back and relive this with us and give us so much of the backstory. Thank you. I hope I gave backstory. I don't know. It's, you know, it's been so long. I'm trying to remember there was so much happening that you only have the version that you lived.

[01:33:59] And I'm sure you could talk to everyone else on that beach and they would have a different idea of what happened because of their conversations and, and their alliances and experiences. So it's, it's kind of funny that way. And Survivor that, you know, we don't get live feeds like Big Brother. We don't, we don't get to see every single thing. We only, even in an edited version of the show, there's stuff that comes out, but you never truly know all the stuff that was said or done or what people were doing because some stuff you just weren't a part of.

[01:34:25] Yes. Well, speaking of Big Brother, I know you keep a close eye on it and are always making incredible content around all of these shows. Yeah. The reenactment of the fight is coming. I just, I can't believe they're making us wait till Wednesday. It's like I was ready. I have my wigs. I have my, you know, but I can't, I can't do the live feed version because not everyone has seen the live feed version. So I have to wait now for the full fight. You're so nice to the unspoiled community out there. A lot of people are just like buyer beware. It's a jungle out there.

[01:34:55] It's a 24 hour show, but you're, you're so courteous to those who are episode only viewers. Well, if I do something about live feeds, I do say spoiler warning because otherwise everyone will yell at me. I'm spoiling the show for them. I'm so sorry. So I always say spoiler warning. Yes. I'll still get people that are pissed in the comments. What are you going to do? Yeah. What are you going to do? Okay. All right. Well, check out everything else that Kelly's doing. Anything else you want to tell people about Kelly? No, I don't think so. Same old thing. Just on social media.

[01:35:25] Summer's flying by. Yeah. Come hang out on social. TikTok or Instagram. That's where I am. All right. Mike, what about for you? What else is coming up that you're working on? Lots of Big Brother stuff over at Parade. Talking with the next person evicted. I've talked about Jerry O'Connell this week. I believe new Big Brother Unlocked. I'm going to try to get his Big Brother resume. I'm going to try to really pick into it. We love Big Brother Unlocked. Listen, I've been enjoying it personally. I think it's a very fun. I don't know.

[01:35:52] I don't know why they haven't gone that route for Survivor, but we haven't had a dedicated Survivor sideshow going on. Maybe they just should bring back Boston Rob and Sandra in the Island of the Idols-esque booth and have them do commentary the entire time. But regardless, I'll be talking with him. The thing I want to plug, though, I guess, Rob, is this podcast. Yes. This little, you know, masturbatory. But of course, this entire series, we are... Should I go back to Keith and the Balls? But we're going through history here, and we want to hear from you all what are some

[01:36:20] episodes that you want us to revisit, and especially who do you want us revisiting it with? And we talked about this before. You know, this is an example, I think, of a classic episode, but we're looking for everything from, you know, bonafide classics to what we call like B-side episodes, right? Where it's like, people don't really realize this, but this is a really good episode. You know, if there's a guest... For the hipsters out there. Exactly. If there's a guest that you want us to talk to, absolutely let us know. I mean, we have what, like 750 plus episodes of Survivor to choose from.

[01:36:48] So the world is your oyster or the giant clams that were in the ocean of Cambodia. Yeah. All right. And of course... Thank you. Yes, we have so much Big Brother stuff coming your way. So be sure to check that all out. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye. Bye.

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