Jonathan Penner Rewatches The Mutiny | Survivor Time Trip

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[00:02:32] Hear that? That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce. Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino. We're back for the Survivor time trip where we are going through the annals of Survivor history to watch classic

[00:03:01] Survivor episodes with the icons who starred in them. And of course, I'm back with my co-host for this experience. It's Mike Bloom. Mike, how are you? Thrilled to be here, Rob. Excited to, as a wise man once said, sit here and chop it up like poop. Yes. Okay. And there's nobody that we'd like to chop it up with more than a great friend, one of my Survivor heroes. Here he is. It's the great Jonathan Penner. Penner, how are you? Like poop.

[00:03:34] I'm great, man, to chop it up like poop in the words of the great Nate Gonzalez. Here I am. Yes. Got to get the chop. How are you doing? I last saw you that we were together, all three of us actually, at the Tribeca Film Festival back in the beginning of June. What have you been up to the last couple of weeks? I had an extraordinary trip in Europe. I had the trip of a lifetime. Truly, I could spend an hour talking about this.

[00:04:01] We were in France. I got to go see Sardinia for the first time, Corsica, and England. It was an amazing, amazing trip with some really, really, really cool people. And then I did a sort of a retreat to work on myself a little bit, which was also very powerful and effective, something called the Hoffman Process.

[00:04:28] And I enjoyed that very much. We could talk about that. Yeah. And that's what I've been doing, hanging out. Happy great summer. I'm interested. Is that Hoffman as in Dustin or Hoffman? Yes. It's Dustin Hoffman's process. It's an acting workshop. It's the name Hoffman, like Dustin Hoffman, but Dustin is not getting any money from this process. Yeah.

[00:04:56] Okay. All right. Well, I'd love to hear more about it at any time, but we also, yes. But not this time, because we have to chop it up like poop. Yes. We'll talk about a very different type of voyage you took, Penner. Not across the pond, but I guess across the ocean all the way over to the Cook Islands. Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about- Across that loin in the sand that said mutiny or no mutiny.

[00:05:26] Mm-hmm. One step that determined my fate as a survivor, honestly. Yeah. Okay. So this is back from Survivor Cook Islands, episode number nine. Sam, make sure we include that in the episode description. What episode this is, because I did get that feedback from the last one. And so from November 9th, 2006, we'll be celebrating the 20-year anniversary of Survivor Cook Islands this fall. Can you believe it, Penner?

[00:05:57] Yeah. I mean, look, it's hard to believe it's been 20 years, right? Because it feels like yesterday I was dreading watching this thing again. Yeah. I hadn't watched it in a long time. But yeah, 20 years is like a lifetime ago. It's amazing. Ozzy is now the age that I was when we played together the first time. Oh, a real Colby Rizzo situation. Yeah. Yes.

[00:06:22] So are you one of these alumni, Penner? Do you watch the season after it ends up coming out the first time? Are you sort of like a, I saw it once, I'm not going to watch it again? You know, I can't tell you the last time I watched Cook Islands. I know I've seen it since then. It's been 20 years. Um, 10 years ago, eight years ago, something like that. Maybe, you know, my, can you guys, I'm going to let my dog out and I'm going to yell while I'm talking. Wow. This is a first.

[00:06:52] Go on. Bye bye. Multi-hyphenate, multi-tasker. Okay. I hope you had, didn't have to cut that out. Um, um, what, I don't watch it. I mean, it's fascinating to watch, but it's not like, oh, it's been six months. I got to watch myself on TV. I mean, you know, it's, it's not, it's not that important to me, but it, and I was dreading it because it was, it was kind of mortifying.

[00:07:22] Um, the experience. I mean, I, you know, I could just monologue now or you guys can ask me. No, please monologue away. The, thank you. The, um, the moment after I did it, the moment I did it and after were some of the most nauseating. I don't know what the word is. You know, I, I felt so sick.

[00:07:48] Of what I had done and what I knew that I had blown up my game. I could not win the game. I had acted impulsively. I had, I had done exactly what I had sworn I was not going to do, which was to be that impulsive and to just let myself in one second. I blew up my game. And I just was like, now what am I going to do? I'm going home tonight or tomorrow night. I will be voted out. Obviously. Why the hell would they keep me?

[00:08:18] Yeah. What was I thinking? I wasn't thinking. I was following Candace, you know, whatever degree you guys want to get into the nitty. Yeah. Well, I'd love to just start a big picture. Is that the reason why you didn't want to go back and look at this again was because that you have regret about that decision or was there any other part of watching yourself from this season that you don't enjoy?

[00:08:43] Well, I mean, again, I haven't, I haven't watched the full season in years. So it was fascinating to see, you know, I was a lot younger, you know, 20 years. I mean, that's the third of my life ago, basically. Right. I looked different. I, I was quite different. And so in some ways it was wonderfully nostalgic. And I'm like, well, damn, you look pretty good, son. You know?

[00:09:08] Yeah. And in some ways it was like, what an asshole. This is just cringeworthy watching you do your thing. You know, what, what, what was going on? But, but that was really the main reason was I didn't want to relive that even though I can unpack and say, oh, well, that's why I got to play two more times.

[00:09:29] I mean, it was making a big move like that. It was doing blah, blah, blah. That made me feel more alive than I had ever felt before. In some ways it was the most extraordinary experience because I was able to say like, okay, well now you've done it. Now you're literally at the bottom of the ocean in a cage, you know, about to die. How do you get out of this buddy? You know, what are you going to do?

[00:09:54] And so I was really, really, really alive after that, you know, until I got the chop finally. Anyway, I mean, we, you know, whatever, ask me questions or whatever you want to do. Tanner, as you've said, you're like a storyteller. That's what you do. So when you watch this episode back, do you feel like it represents the mentality you were having that caused you to step over that line?

[00:10:22] Well, just in watching the episode and I didn't watch the previous eight episodes. It's hard to believe. I mean, this is day 19 already and we're only halfway through the epic season. You know, it was clear to me that a couple of things that in hindsight made it look, you know, different, but I think, and you guys are the experts. This was the first season with the final three, right?

[00:10:45] We were playing at that point, believing we were playing towards the final two. It was clear to me that Yule was going to take Becky to the end if he could. Everybody was teamed up and I had, Candace was the closest person that I could really relate to. I mean, if I'd been smart, smarter, I could have said, oh, me and Sundra could work together.

[00:11:08] Certainly, probably Ozzy and I could have worked together if we were in different places in our lives then, in our minds. So it was me and Candace. I thought that we kind of had the potential of working together. And in the course of the episode, she says, like, I don't like Jonathan. I don't know why the hell he stepped off. I want to get rid of him.

[00:11:29] And I'm like, oh, my God, asshole, idiot. You totally misread the room. You know, you heard what you wanted to hear and not what was actually being said to you. But, um, yeah. Did that answer your question? Well, I'm curious that you feel like that partners were such a big part of everything. But, I mean, didn't Candace already have a partner? Why did you want to hitch your wagon to Candace so much? I guess I didn't know that she did.

[00:12:00] And I don't remember how much Adam and Candace were a thing prior to any of this. It wasn't clear to me that she wanted to get back to the two of them. You know, although we say that in the course of the thing, I'm sort of going along with her saying, yeah, I mean, this is so mortifying. It's like, yeah, the four Caucasians could go to the end. It wasn't a race thing. It was just like, that seems to me what she wanted to do. Right. I didn't care. And I thought I could beat all three of those. Yeah.

[00:12:29] You know, in a fair fight, I probably could have if I hadn't stepped off the mat and pissed everybody off and then step back and pissed everybody off again. You know, that was just me having at that point fun and sort of staying alive and handing the win to the person, you know, that I that I thought most deserved it. But we were playing towards a final two.

[00:12:51] And, you know, now 37 seasons after this, going back and forth and not having an allegiance and all that seems de rigueur. You know, at that point, it was like crazy. What an idiot. What an ass. How could he you know, he can't go back to them. They literally say in the course of the of this, you know, he he's he could never go back there. Whereas now it's like, yeah, he did what he had to do for one vote. He went back and that.

[00:13:21] Um, I don't know. It was a different time. And, you know, I was playing in a lot of ways, not into the future, but just staying alive and what I understood the game to be, which was you pick a loyal person. You know, you're going to have to betray somebody down the line at some point. But you try to pick your person and you work with them and move to the final final two.

[00:13:45] Um, the truth is, I could have been a great final two player or even final three player because I was a goat. Nobody would have voted for me. I could have made a hell of an argument at the end of the day for why they should have voted for me. But, you know, you'll say I've taken this guy any further. You know, he's dangerous as hell or stupid as hell. I think I think the unsung hero of the episode actually is Nate Gonzalez. I appreciate you quoting him. He's the one who comes across as being like right on.

[00:14:12] He made the mistake, not not for me, but, you know, he made the mistake of not getting rid of me immediately, which is what he said he was going to do. He's funny. I never gave him that kind of credit. He was like, you know, is this guy stupid? What's he smoking? And, you know, he's he's he had a lot of great lines in the episode. Yeah. So when you come over, he's like, yeah, what is what is this guy smoking if he thinks that we're going to work with him? But then it seems like that he kind of ends up being your savior by the end of the episode,

[00:14:41] where kind of feels like that Candace is sort of like leading Adam to want to get rid of you, which he does seem to take the bait. And he's like, oh, that's it. We and Adam calls you. I think he calls you a kid. He's like, we got to get rid of this kid. And then Nate's like, no, no, no, we can't change the plan. Stop it. We're not doing that. I mean, you know, look, they it was unclear to me watching the episode and honestly, it was unclear to me on the beach because nobody was really being straight with me.

[00:15:11] Right. About why they were going to why they kept me around. I mean, I hate to even put it in those subjugated terms. But but, you know, whether whether Adam and Candace knew that nobody could, you know, they could use me to get to the end. Whether Adam and Candace knew that, in fact, they wanted to work with me and and I was a good ally. I was stuck. So they might as well, you know, work with me. And the truth was, I was going to do whatever I had to do to stay alive.

[00:15:41] And what I thought I had to do at that point was provide. And they were so fucking lazy. I don't know if I can't swear, but I'm going to swear that that it was like, hey, wait a minute. Why are we going to get rid of this guy? He can't go anywhere anyway. Nobody's going to vote for him, you know, and he's a workhorse. Let's let's let's strap the oxen. So the thing on him and just and just whip him for a while. And which was OK, because I was willing to do it.

[00:16:07] I didn't have to talk to them if I was out fishing and providing. I didn't have to talk to anybody. And, you know, honestly. Right. And I would come back and feed them and they'd be like, you know, maybe we'll keep this guy around for a little while. Then I got very resentful that they treated me like a like a slave, like a like a workhorse. And, you know, when I had a little power, I got a little cocky, very cocky.

[00:16:32] You know, it's not my finest set of hours, but it made pretty good TV. I was I was I was enjoying watching it like how the hell is this guy going to get out of here? Yeah. Does he not get voted out? What I think is so interesting is you talk about this mutiny being sort of like a legacy making move for you. But I also think about the sliding doors where if I, too, sticks together or if the mutiny doesn't happen. I mean, it's talked about in the beginning of this episode. Ozzy was primed to go next.

[00:17:01] And it seemed like it was the five of you with him on the outs. There is a universe better where Ozzy is a 12th place finisher in his original. You know, I just think for people who are listening, I don't know how many of our listeners have gone back and rewatched the episode. I just think it helps to add some context to. So you're you're on that original your or you're with the new version of I, too. And it's you and Becky and then you and Candace. And then there's Ozzy and Sundra.

[00:17:30] And Ozzy is sort of the odd man out out of that you're talking about at the start of the episode. You have a five and that Ozzy most likely you keep him around for a vote or two. And then you get rid of Ozzy pretty soon after the merge. That's where the episode starts. Can you hear this, dog? We hear the dog. Yeah, whatever you need to do. Yeah. So that's the that's the backstory set up for where this episode starts.

[00:17:57] And the episode starts that it's actually six versus six. There's sorry. The two tribes are even at the point where the where the mutiny is offered. Mike, you were talking about how Ozzy could have been the 12th place finisher in the season, which is wild. We just saw him come back for a fifth time and obviously would have stopped. You know, he did some fun stuff in the first eight episodes, but I feel like the mutiny, you really light a fire under his ass, Penner, and are able to really have him form the sort

[00:18:27] of challenge God persona that we'll see for the rest of his career. So talk a bit about those dynamics on I2 2.0. Who were you closest with out of that group of six? You'll really, you know, you'll and I got along great. And, you know, Flicka, not so much. You know, she was I thought that I might be able to work with her for a while. It became clear that I could not. You know, she and Cowboy were going to work together again.

[00:18:55] This was back in the days when there were people on the show who had never watched Survivor, had barely heard of Survivor. They'd been found. They put on and that made for some great TV because they had no idea. Cowboy is no fool. I mean, he played he played a great game. He wasn't sophisticated enough, you know, in the politics of it. Neither was she. So they were gone. But Ozzy was clearly the next one to go because, you know, he was hard to get not hard to get along with, but he did his own thing.

[00:19:24] It was clear that once we got to an individual game, he was going to be, if not unstoppable, if not unstoppable, nearly unstoppable. And if I hadn't stepped off the mat, yeah, he probably would have would have gone next or Sundra would have, you know, we would have figured out it would have been. You got to remember in that moment, you don't have to remember, but I'm asking you to remember that in that moment, it was six to six.

[00:19:54] Candice steps off and suddenly it's seven to five. And it looks like, oh, shit, the numbers are running away from me. I went on to the team and we should have been able to dominate on as an eight to four team who was going to be able to rest every episode. You know, we'd be able to rest in between the challenges. It did seem a fate of complete that all we had to do was beat them one, two times and it was going to be a run. The fact that we couldn't get our shit together at all.

[00:20:25] And they were like the four musketeers and beat us every single time. Yeah. Was impossible. We were like, what do we, you know, what's happening? August is one of those months where it's the summer and you're still in it, but you find yourself thinking ahead to the plans for the fall. And in the fall, you got to think about the clothes that are around the corner. And that's what I keep coming back to Quince for. Their whole thing is fewer, better pieces.

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[00:21:52] That's quince.com slash rawpod. August is one of those months where it's the summer and you're still in it, but you find yourself thinking ahead to the plans for the fall. And in the fall, you got to think about the clothes that are around the corner. And that's what I keep coming back to Quince for. Their whole thing is fewer, better pieces. Premium materials built to last. Designed to be the things you reach for every day.

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[00:24:44] Hear that? That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce. Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. I'd love to just talk through just how this all plays out because it's really interesting at this point in the game. It's day 19 when this happens. The tribes are 6-6 even. The producers allow this opportunity for people to switch.

[00:25:13] I don't know if they expected anybody to do it. And it's not even a situation where it's like a swap where it's like, okay, we need two people now to go over to the other team. We just sort of like completely upset the power balance where now one tribe is 8 and one tribe is 4. And then that tribe of 4, that in my mind, when I think back to the season, I think back like, oh, that they were probably together for like a bunch of episodes in a row.

[00:25:41] I think it's only two episodes that that group of 4 is together. And then you end up having a very late merge also where it seems like that you must have merged on like day 25, which is like the next to last day of the season in new era Survivor. So it's really crazy the way this all unfolds. Yeah, it was crazy. And watching the episode, I mean, you know, we can go in any number of places.

[00:26:09] One of the things is watching the episode, how few confessionals there are. I mean, this mutiny, they were like, okay, you've got 10 seconds to mutiny and we're all looking at each other. Five, four, he steps off. Three, two, I step off. Okay, what do you think? I'm shocked. Ozzy, what do you think? I'm not shocked. Okay, let's keep going. And that was that. That was the extent of the confessionals. And then play the effing challenge. And I'm like, today you'd have five minutes of people talking about why, what, you know. You're a storyteller. What's better?

[00:26:39] Oh, well, I miss actually watching it now. I miss the confessionals. I wanted to hear from folks and say, well, what are we going to do? And what were they thinking? And me, what the hell was I thinking? You know, I don't even know if they went back and said, so why'd you step off the mat? You know, why did you do it? What was going on in your mind or Candace's mind? It was all played on the beach as Candace is talking to Adams, talking to Parvati. It's, you know, awful footage of me just blabbering away. Candace is off on Exile.

[00:27:09] And I'm trying to justify why I did it. Like, I don't know. I want that you guys were more fun. I mean, it was, you know, moronic. And they're like, okay, well, this guy's going to go. We're going to get rid of this guy. And that'll be easy. I'm sorry. We have to listen to him as he's desperate to stay alive. You know, it was kind of horrible. Did you get the sense at the time Jeff is counting down that anybody else was contemplating doing this based on body language or eye contact or anything?

[00:27:39] No, I didn't. I wasn't planning on doing it. It didn't dawn on me to do it until Candace, with whom I had just had a conversation the night before or that morning. I don't even remember. Like, you know, I want to work with you and we are good together. And, you know, and then she stepped off the mat. And I'm like, oh, shit. Now what am I going to do? Because, again, you know, at that point, Ozzy was the odd man out. But I could easily have been the odd man out.

[00:28:08] Remember, if we'd lost that challenge, if we'd lost immunity, you're going to have then and this it all happened so much faster than my brain process now. But, you know, I was 20 years older than everybody else on that on that on that truck on any tribe at that point. You know, I think Sekou Bunch was my age or a year older and Cowboy was basically my age. They were all gone.

[00:28:32] You know, I was by 15 years at least older than anybody else that was playing the game at that point. I think they were all in their 20s still. Maybe Sundar was 30 years old at that point. Yeah. Anyway, it seemed clear to me that going with the numbers was the way to go. I felt badly about it. But since you asked that question, it's about 10 times more time than we had to actually, you know, think about it. Yeah.

[00:28:59] I'm curious, what was your relationship like with Candace in the years that followed Survivor Cook Islands? Did you keep in contact? Yeah, we did a bit. We did a bit. Always fondly, you know, I mean, I woke up on Ponderosa, right, the day after I got voted out. And she's literally standing over me.

[00:29:26] She must have woken me up because I woke up like Jesus. And she's standing over me because it's like, well, it's almost light out. And I need to talk to you. I need to clear the air and I need to talk with you because, you know, Mike, I don't know if you know, Rob, you do. But you get to Ponderosa and nobody can talk to you. Right. You get one night where they don't come at you with their fucking hatchets and knives of like, you cost me my game and I hate you. Which all comes out later. If you know a chance to sit there for 12 hours.

[00:29:56] But that first night to the first morning she was at me and we were OK. You know, she was hanging out with Adam. They were canoodling. They were both, you know. When the episode was going to air where he's wiped his ass with my shirt, which is a little bit later. I don't know what episode that is. And I'm just remembering this now. She called me at home. Yeah. Like that day.

[00:30:23] And I'm like, hey, Candace, you know, big episode. I don't know what was happening. I mean, I was in trouble and she was in trouble. And, you know, the episode was going to be. And she was like weeping on the phone telling me because she was in a totally different relationship at that point with Adam. And I have to tell you that Adam did this and I was laughing and we both were so mad at you. And and I was like, you let me put that shirt back on my body.

[00:30:51] I mean, I was really I mean, honestly, you know, just didn't quite know what to do with that information. But but I guess I appreciate that she tried. Maybe she wouldn't have called me if she didn't think it was going to be on TV. I don't know. She and I have had a nice, fine relationship. I haven't talked to her in many, many, many years. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense, given.

[00:31:12] I mean, listen, the words that were also being hurled in your direction during Candace's boot episode is perhaps akin to the stain that Adam was left on on that shirt. So, you know, I think that even just leaving things cordial was a nice way considering that the two of you, again, were so tied together. Right. You play every day of the game together until she goes. Yeah. I mean, look, Candace is obviously a very bright, capable person.

[00:31:42] I pegged her at the Doubletree when we were together. She was obviously gorgeous. She was, you know, not some slouchy person. She clearly had her shit together and was if she made it out onto the island, was there to play. Yeah. That was very clear to me. I don't think I really saw anybody else who wound up playing at the Doubletree, but I remember her very, very clearly. Yeah.

[00:32:09] Penner, a big part of this episode, and you mentioned it yourself about how you were seen as a workhorse and you do seem to have this background of being able to provide for people out there. And so I'm just curious to know, how did that come to be a part of your repertoire going out on Survivor?

[00:32:33] Because from what I know of you and your career, that I don't remember you really having this survivalist experience prior to Survivor. No, none of that. It's an interesting question, I think. I got to learn a little bit about how to fish from Ozzy, right? I went out with him and watched what he did. I could not obviously do what he did, but I could at least work the sling, you know, so there was that.

[00:33:02] I knew you had to, you know, you never came back to camp empty-handed. You always had to bring either water or wood, I felt. I like to provide. I was, you know, am a father, was a father, and it's fun to work. You know, I wasn't there to, like, have a vacation, you know. I wanted to stay warm and I wanted to eat. They certainly weren't doing it at that point. And as I said earlier, it got me out of camp.

[00:33:32] I didn't have to talk to them or listen to them. They're nonsense, you know. Most of the conversation, you can attest this is hard. Stupid. You know, uninteresting conversation to me. So I'd much rather go off, be alone, think my thoughts. And look, Cook Islands was an extraordinary, is an extraordinary place. It's literally like the Blue Lagoon, you know.

[00:33:56] And we were there, for the folks who don't know and you must know, you know, now in Fiji, they own Fiji, this island or this beach. Or essentially, they control it most of the time. But in the Cook Islands, they literally bought the rights to use these parks. They took the snack shacks and things like that out of there. They bought the air rights and the ocean rights. And there were no fishermen. There were no airplanes or helicopters.

[00:34:22] And they said, here's a national park, state park, I don't know, that has never really been fished. Go to it. You know, so there were these fish who were like fish in a barrel for somebody like me. I'm not a great fisherman. But I could go out there and float, you know, for five hours. I was fat enough that I didn't, you know, freeze. And in five hours, if you can't catch a bunch of fish that are this size, you know, go home. So I just had fun.

[00:34:52] I don't know. It was a great opportunity to be on the Blue Lagoon, you know, to be Robinson Crusoe. Well, you talk about Ozzy, the, you know, fisherman you learned so much from. Let's talk about the reactions from him and the other ITUs when you make this mutiny. What was your perspective? You know, as you mentioned, Ewell says he's shocked. Ozzy says he's not. But like, what was the atmosphere from the four of them in the room at the time the two of you step over to the other side?

[00:35:22] Oh, I mean, everyone was stunned. But I got to be honest. I had like an out-of-body experience, you know. I totally dissociated. You know, I stepped off the mat and immediately was like, I ended my game. I just killed myself, you know. I just, you know, so I was like totally up in my head. And then they, and then, okay, now we're going to play the challenge. And they were like, well, you're not doing this challenge. You're going to sit out. And I'm sitting out like, what am I doing?

[00:35:52] What just happened? So I wasn't really paying attention too much to them. I was just shitting myself basically out of fear and stupidity. I mean, this is the truth. And then later, I don't know if this made it on film. I vaguely remember it. Maybe it was in another episode where Ozzy like jumps in the water and yells, you know, traitors die first or something. You know, he was furious. When they win the reward challenge, Ozzy like goes over to the bench on which you're sitting

[00:36:21] and says, mutineers are the first to die. Oh, is that on the episode? Yeah. Oh, I must have been drinking. That's very dramatic. Yeah. I wouldn't have wanted to be in that challenge anywhere where they were rolling people in a barrel across the logs. You can miss me with that. No, I'm glad I didn't get rolled in a barrel. But again, you know, so where's Nate Gonzalez?

[00:36:50] Can we just talk about Nate Gonzalez? Sure. Because I agree in rewatching Cook Islands. Obviously, you know, this is the origin point for a lot of massive people on Survivor, yourself, Ozzy, Candice Parvati, who we really haven't mentioned in this episode. This is going to be obviously her first season. But I do feel like, yeah, yeah, you will, of course. Nate is this person that we don't necessarily remember because he didn't return on any other season.

[00:37:16] But he is the shoe salesman that is like the master of one liners. We mentioned chop him up like poop. You know, Penner, I believe he refers to you as Lord knows what he thinks he's doing. Knucklehead. So he was. What is he smoking? Stupid. Stupid. Yeah. And he literally says, like, what is he, stupid? And I sat there saying, yes, I was. Well, what was your impression? Because this is, I guess, you know, outside of him getting kidnapped over to your tribe, this is the first time you really have a meaningful interaction with him. Yeah, that's true.

[00:37:48] Well, he was giving me the side eye. I mean, he didn't give me almost the time of day. I mean, this was part of the problem, which turned. It's an interesting dynamic. I never really thought about it. You know, me from being this workhorse to being really resentful, you know, because I did work my ass off and they just would not give me the time of day. It was just kind of horrible. And poor little poor little me. But, you know, I didn't have much interaction with us, with Nate.

[00:38:17] I really didn't, which is why I was pleasantly surprised watching the episode saying, well, this guy's genuinely funny. You know, now I see why he's out there. I mean, he's great looking guy and he's funny as hell. And his reactions were, he was in some ways the narrator of the episode in a way that neither Candace or I or any of the big returning players were. You know, it's interesting. Parvati, I don't even remember a time when she spoke in this episode. I don't know that she did. Yeah.

[00:38:47] Or Rebecca, is that her name? There was also a, is that her name? Yeah, Rebecca Borman, yeah. Jenny Guzon Bay? Yeah, Jenny Guzon, Guzon Bay, Guzon Bay gets one, like, little thing. I need a tribal council. And she's saying, like, she says that they're going to pop the other tribe like zits. Pick them off like zits. Pick them off like zits. I could not resist putting him in the show. But she says, oh, I guess I'm hanging out with Nate too much. That's like, he even gets credit for her jokes.

[00:39:17] It was Nate's episode. Fascinating, you know? Yeah. So that's why I'm asking, where's Nate Gonzalez today? He's got to be 50, 45, 50-year-old guy. I mean, does he, what's he? Hello, Nate. If you're watching, or if anybody knows where Nate is, put us in touch. Yeah, he's 46. Fuck you, old man. No, I don't think so. Well, yeah, I think he calls you, I believe in his final words, he calls you like a whack stank-ass fruitcake or something, if I'm remembering correctly.

[00:39:47] Well, that's a triple, that's a triple mixed metaphor. A whack, stink-ass fruitcake? I believe that's not the direct quote, the sentiment. He just had been there when Adam wiped his ass with my shirt. I don't know. Well, so I guess from that perspective, obviously you had a very unique POV in that you automatically feel like you're kind of on the outs when you arrive at this camp. But did you get a sense as to the power dynamics on this Rero tribe? Did you feel like certain people were running the show

[00:40:16] and certain people were on the outs beside yourself? They told me that Brad was going to go, right? They had decided that Brad was going to go. There was some questionable candle or something. I don't remember. I don't know if it ever made it onto the show, but this is what I remember. And Parvati was like, no, you guys are good. Don't worry. We've got your back. Brad's going to be the one to go. So, you know, that didn't make it into the show. Maybe it didn't make it onto film.

[00:40:46] They might've put it on there. I'm sorry, Penner, did you say a candle? Yeah. So again, you know, like Brad had taken, did they win a candle in the season? What did he do with it? That's my memory. So, you know, again, I'm, you know, it may be totally skewed, but I really was listening like a hawk. Yeah. Because she was like, I see, you know, it's going to be good. I think she was very happy to have Candace there. She had no idea. You know, Parvati's really smart.

[00:41:15] She had no idea what I was doing there, why I followed. And that's why she asked Candace on the episode, were you guys close? Because he says you guys are close. And Candace is like, I ain't close to this. I don't know what the hell he was doing. Yeah. But again, they realized like, I was a good guy to work with at least for a while. I don't know. Like, did Brad? They weren't giving me the time of day. Did Brad have a confessional here in his boot episode?

[00:41:44] Uh, he, oh, I, that's a great question. I don't believe. It looks like I'm looking at, I pulled up the confessional chart. It looks like Brad went over his boot episode. You know what I do? Yeah. I do remember that, uh, one of those stats of like the, the rare handful of 750 plus survivor contestants who did not speak in their boot episode. Brad Verrata is part of that, uh, you know, the best of the best in that category. Yeah. But that's weird. Right. I mean, by today's standards to think about like, well, what were they thinking? Why wouldn't they?

[00:42:14] Because they made it very clear. It was going to be either him or me. Yeah. I think. Right. So maybe they just didn't want you to think it was going to be anybody but me. I don't know. Well, it should be, it should be noted that this is, there's a lot of firsts in this season and Palau did have a 20 person cast, but they get rid of two people on day two. This really was a bit of an unorthodox ship, uh, much like the schooner that dropped you guys off at the cook islands where there were 20 of you to start off. Again, you're thinking the merge may come at 12. You don't know.

[00:42:42] The jury is going to start at 12. So I also think the editors didn't know in this season, how to edit a 20 person cast. I mean, we just experienced survivor 50 where there were 24 people, 90 minute episodes. And even still there were people that were getting the short script of airtime. Yeah. But the editors knew he was going home that day. Yeah. I think the audience wasn't that sophisticated. I don't think they, they thought about these things at the time. It's like, Hey, we got 42 minutes, put the best stuff in. Who cares if he gets a confessional or not? Well,

[00:43:12] I guess that's true. So is that better? I mean, is that so old it would be new to do that today? Is it so codified at this point that everybody has some sense of what's going on? I really do think that it's one of those things that I think that the show sort of has like gotten, uh, like, I want to pick the right word pressured into of like, Hey, everybody needs to have their story told. But I think that for the viewers at home,

[00:43:42] I do think that it is a more satisfying product to, I really want to get to know the stars of the show. And then if some of the other people are sort of like the background characters or the extras, if you're a viewer at home, I don't think you really care. I think it's more that it's not really fair to the other people who are like, I mean, we don't need to tell you as somebody who has had your experience. It's like, okay, there's the, there's the principal stars of the show.

[00:44:10] And then there's some people in the ensemble and you don't really know a lot about them. And that's fine, but it's not unfair to those actors that they're not getting shown a lot, or they don't have any lines in the episode, but people get upset about this for reality. No, I think that, I mean, of course what you're saying makes complete sense. And I think, you know, from my editing brain, if you're only going to show five people, the final five, well, then the audience knows who the final five are. Yes. You want to follow the, your hero all the way through,

[00:44:40] but you also don't want to say, well, listen, you know, these 15 people don't talk at all. So I know they're inconsequential. Yeah. You know, you've got to give some sense of suspense. Don't you? Who the hell is going to be? But I wonder if in 2006, the audience was not that sophisticated yet. Now we've like, you know, spent, you know, 25 years watching these shows. Okay. It's like, all right, I know that person's not going to win. They're not talking, but maybe in, you know, 2005, 2006, you know, the audience, I don't think was all getting together and talking about how, okay,

[00:45:09] well now I know what's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I mean, there was edgic. Yeah. I remember that. Still exists. Oh yeah. It's a thrumming along. Yeah. I mean, edgic at that time. I mean, what's interesting though is in this case, even one of the more lopsided edits we've experienced in a survivor season, especially back in the day, I would say half of the final four is still very under edited, you know? So it's not even like necessarily you got a big edit. You make it. It doesn't say a word, a word in this episode, as far as I could tell,

[00:45:39] Sundra might've said something. Oh no. They talk a little about their, their, the, the letters that they get from home. That was very, yeah. Right. Yeah. The big three in this season, uh, you, you, and Ozzy, uh, all have over 50, uh, confessionals in the season. And then, then, and then the next person after that is Nate, who has 31. And he goes, and he goes out of the merge. First star poverty,

[00:46:09] who of that, of the entire panoply with Ozzy, and she's the only one who's won and came in second or whatever, you know, I mean, she's obviously the, the, the Mount Rushmore player of the, yeah. She, well, she has like a big stretch in the middle of the stretch that we're in right now. Is she, this is her fourth episode in a row with no confessionals here in cook islands. So not really a big part of the middle of the season. She has a big last episode. Yeah. Because that's when she's,

[00:46:36] it's just her and Adam left and she's on the ropes. I'm curious, Penner, what was your relationship with poverty? Because obviously I think the bigger to do is between, I mean, you and Candace, but obviously you and poverty will play together in your next season, maybe not together necessarily, but what was your relationship during your first season? I, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I didn't, I didn't get along very well with poverty. You know, you know, and, and I, I'm sure I, there's footage of me in the, in the season saying like, you know,

[00:47:06] I don't want my kid to grow up to be like poverty or something. I found her, which is of course, extremely unfair. And she and I have, you know, have no problem now. This is 20 years ago, but I found it very hard to take that she seemed. And again, she was a sophisticated survivor player. Okay. I was looking at survivor, like a society that of shipwrecked people. She was looking at survivor as a game that she was there to win. So I'm maybe, maybe I was looking at it the same way in that I kept myself alive by

[00:47:36] providing, but I'm like, how can these people do nothing? How can they literally do nothing except, except sit in front of the fire that I'm providing and eat the food that I'm providing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you know, she came across to me and this is very unfair. I'm realizing as lazy, as entitled, you know, I was, I was sitting there going, you know, about, about poverty unkindly. And, and she was playing the shit out of the game. She was playing her ass off, you know,

[00:48:06] and, and, and I saw that I did get to realize that so that when we came back, I said, we got to get rid of this girl. First, I knew she was going to try to get rid of me, but I'm like, she is really dangerous. And there's fair play. That's a whole other episode. We can talk about fair play, you know, blows that thing up and she goes on to win the game. Yeah. But, um, poverty and I didn't get along so good. Okay. August is one of those months where it's the summer and you're still in it,

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[00:52:45] Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. You and Jeff Probst had an interesting relationship throughout your survivor career. And I really was tickled that when we got to the immunity challenge in this episode, that it was one that I was like, okay, oh, that's in this episode also? Yeah. This was the challenge where both tribes have this glass bottom boat,

[00:53:14] and you have to drop cannonballs into using some sort of a, like, compass, which, to my mind, it looks like it did not work particularly well. And really... Hey, I mean, Rayro got two cannonballs using it for what it's worth. Yeah. It did. Yeah. But it looked like that Yule ultimately hacks the challenge of, like, okay,

[00:53:36] actually to look through the periscope down and then goes into Winds It. But you and Jeff, you know, you have this interesting relationship. And I actually have a clip from this, a moment of back and forth for the two of you. Holy bro. Just wasted a cannonball. They weren't paying attention. Dropped it right through the ship. What's that? No, please. Jonathan getting frustrated by me. Ha ha ha.

[00:54:06] I did. Well, because I couldn't say, look, I was the one captaining the ship or whatever it was. I couldn't figure out what they were doing because we were paying attention to this. It didn't dawn on me, dummy, to look over and say, how are they coming from behind? What are they doing? They've hacked the hack. Of course, we could do the same thing. All Yule did was look over the side and, you know, measure it by eyeball. So, you know, when I get frustrated, which is apparently often, certainly back then it was often,

[00:54:35] and I wasn't eating and I was on the ropes and bah, bah, bah. I bitched at him, you know, because he was bitching at me. Hey, you know, Raro, acting stupid or messing it up. Oh, shut up. You know, I wasn't mean about it. And he's like, well, I'm like, shut up. I'm trying to work out here. You know, I don't need you in my ear. At some point in one of the later seasons, he's like, this was off camera, but he was like, you know, you're not yelling at me the way that you used to.

[00:55:05] Maybe they were looking forward to that or something, you know, or how come we're not bitching at each other anymore? And then he said, oh, yeah, you're not losing. I mean, it literally dawned on him in the moment that, oh, yeah, you know, I wasn't, didn't have my backup against the ropes and was looking for any outlet to vent my frustration on. And he was a safe one. You know, at one point in the, in the, when does the auction happen? Is it soon? Probably it's in the episode where Candace goes.

[00:55:36] There was a, can I tell this? I mean, I, whatever you want. I'm just remembering this because I, you know, I've done enough TV and for those of you at home who may not, I mean, I'm sure at this point, everybody knows, but it shot like a, like a sitcom almost, you know, there's, there's wide open space, but then there's

[00:55:59] one wall, the fourth wall that's filled with cameras, 10, 15, 20, 30 cameras shooting in every direction. And there was some question that I had in my mind, stupidly. I turned to the producers. Like, can I do this? Okay. And Probst was like, what are you doing? I said, Oh, I'm sorry, Jeff. I had a, and he's like, there's nobody here, but me.

[00:56:30] They don't exist. You're starting to really piss me off. You know, he was getting frustrated by you. Right. I wish I'd said Jeff getting frustrated by me, but again, this stuff didn't exist. It's not on camera. It doesn't exist. You went over his helmet. Producers for whatever wise ass reason or, or, or rational reason. I knew they'd have the answer. You know, I don't know what it was. I don't know why I thought I needed to ask them a question, but yeah. I said, you're starting to really piss me off.

[00:56:59] There's nobody here, but me maybe. So I, you know, I hadn't thought of that in a long time and I'm like, Hey, you know, sorry, Jeff may culpa apologize. Did you, did you find your relationship with Jeff changed over the course of the three seasons you played relationship with Jeff? I'd like to think, you know, look, it's hard. I got very close on 50 Rob. I don't know if you were in that mix. I was, I was one of the last 20 to get cut, which was great.

[00:57:27] I mean, we had a talk in here and it was just a fantastic. Conversation with him. And, you know, the other producers were there. I don't know if they asked any, they weren't here. They weren't there. I'm the only one here. So I talked to Jeff, but we had a really, really fun, funny conversation. And I, and, you know, I actually wrote to the casting person afterwards. And I was like, if they don't want that, then I don't know what to do. Cause that couldn't have gone better, you know, and it couldn't have. Um, and for whatever reason, and, and, you know, we understand they had Mike White and

[00:57:57] they got coach at Colby and they got Ozzy and they had a fantastic cast of guys. Returning guys. And I can't argue. And I think Rick Devins maybe might've been in your spot. Great story. Great run. Yeah. And so I was disappointed of course, because I couldn't have, you know, I mean, I was really right on it and he, he and I have a great relationship, you know, I mean, as we're not close friends, but I'm not as, you know, I, I consider you my friend, Jeff Probst. I consider like, yeah, we're cool.

[00:58:27] Yeah. Yeah. The, your relationship with Jeff though was so fun. And am I, I can't think of anybody else that has had the type of relationship that Penner has with Jeff, where it's almost like that. It feels like you're such a fun foil for Jeff. And I don't, I feel like that Jeff has had unique relationships with so many players, but I feel like that you have a truly unique relationship with Jeff. Well, part of it is we're the same age. Yeah. We have the same initials. Yes.

[00:58:56] We, I'm not afraid of Jeff. You know what I mean? I mean, Jeff comes across as like fucking God out there. And most of the folks out there to their credit, whatever, we're like, I'm, I'm on TV. I'm on survivor. I made it. This is incredible. You know, when Jeff, Jeff Probst is talking to me, this isn't, and I'm like, he's just a fucking guy who's does a great job. I mean, he's, he makes it look easy. It is not easy what he does, but I had some understanding of who he was. And I, you know, I didn't care.

[00:59:26] He didn't threaten me. You know, what's, what's he going to do? You know, throw me off the show for, for being a wise ass. I didn't care, you know? So maybe that was part of it. You know, he, he and I got along great and nobody treats him like that. I mean, and he swears like a seller. I swear, I swear a bit, but he's like, you fucking God fuck you guys. You know, I mean, he's really, well, you know. Do you think more people should talk back to Jeff in these challenges, especially when he's doing the ongoing commentary?

[00:59:56] Do I think they should? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, do I think they could? If they're trying to do it to get screen time, it seems, you know, I don't know. I mean, to me, it was totally natural. You know, he's talking to you. He's talking. It would be like us doing what we're doing. And somebody's over here going, oh, Rob is doing a thing. Mike's doing a thing. It's like, shut the fuck up. We're working here. So just shut up.

[01:00:21] I think that Jeff in the show is in a very different place right now where that this was sort of like very much in like the spicy Jeff era where he's really like giving it to the contestants. And you were one of the few people that ever pushed back against that. Now in the newer era and Jeff's in a different station in his life that he's very encouraging to the contestants of like, come on, pick it up. I know you can do it. Like, he's not like, you're a disaster.

[01:00:50] You're an embarrassment in this show. I'm blowing it. Yeah. I believe Micronesia, I think when he says, he's like, you better stop bitching and start throwing. Mm-hmm. Now in Micronesia, that was days before I was medevaced out because their idiot doctor had stitched garbage into my leg and I was like, you know, just trying to win a million bucks. You know, it's like my ass, right? That's when I said, oh, my ass. Stop bitching. And I'm like, you stop bitching, man.

[01:01:20] You know, and that was the thing. He went out there. We talked about this a little bit in Survivor 50. He comes out. I'm going to do it. I'm going to hold this. This is hard. He was like shocked that it was that it was difficult after watching 800 challenges or something in the course of his his career. You know, I'm like, you come out here and do this while sleeping in the dirt and eating shit in the rain. OK, you try it, buddy. And that's, you know, so I just said that to him. I don't know. It wasn't planned, obviously. Mm-hmm.

[01:01:50] I'm curious, Penner, you were told by Parvati going to the Tribal Council, like, don't worry, you're fine. It's going to be Brad. Brad, but how confident were you that that was actually going to be the case? Like, did you think it was going to be you? Honestly, I was I guess I was pretty confident, you know, and they all voted for Brad. Yeah. You got to realize, you know, in the boat, he voted for me and we all voted for him. Believe me, I didn't have a chance to go to Rebecca and say, like, we're good. Right. It's Brad.

[01:02:18] And, you know, go to Adam and Nate. I was told it's Brad. Vote for Brad. I'm like, thank you. Let's hope it works out. And they were right. They had decided that it was going to be Brad. And we all know that the editing is for the audience to not know how it's going to go. And often the folks voting know how it's going to go, you know, which is I mean, I honestly don't remember being totally confident.

[01:02:43] But I'd like to think I'm not such a fool that I that I did not have. As I said on the episode, you know, I'd be stupid not to think there's a chance that I could go home tonight. It'd be crazy not to. Yeah. So we've talked about a lot of the people that you had the issues with in the game. But we haven't talked too much about the person that you had this great relationship and really this extensive friendship with over the years in Yule.

[01:03:10] Could you just talk a little bit about how you and Yule came together and how you knew he was going to be your type of guy on the season or after? No, on the season when you when you first get together. Well, it's interesting, you know, as you know, there's days before the game starts, right? You starting starting in the airport, then on a flight, then from the airport.

[01:03:39] And that took hours and hours and hours to get to whatever camp we're at. And then you're at Ponderosa. OK, so you start to get a real sense of folks and and who you like and who you don't like. And, you know, Ozzy, I thought, oh, this kid is too much, you know, already. He you know, he reacted like his shit just didn't stink. I like Cecilia. I thought she was cool and spicy and solid person. You know, I said, oh, I can work with her.

[01:04:06] But obviously, Yule was the creme de la creme for me. He was, you know, it's like you can't talk to each other. Right. But you can say. And they pass the salt. Holding a door for somebody. You know, simple things, politesse that that you are taught somewhere along the line.

[01:04:33] And, you know, he and I move through the world in a similar way. You know, we try to be polite. We try to look people in the eye and say thank you if they are kind to you. And so I said, oh, this guy's got it going on. Clearly, you know, I would love to work with this guy. And that's what we got to do. As it turned out, we had not similar backgrounds.

[01:05:01] But, you know, we're we you know, he's a total family guy. You must know him. You know, he's dedicated to his family. I was lucky enough to go to his wedding. And I've been good friends with him for 20 years. Hmm. What was the first sit down the two of you had at the merge after you had mutinied? Did he say he was feeling a certain way after you had jumped to the other tribe and left him behind?

[01:05:29] Yeah, he was really hurt, you know, or at least he played the hurt card. Right. And I don't know. Soon thereafter that he presents me with that. He shows me he's got this idol. And you got to remember, this is the super idol. This is a different idol. Yeah, this is the idol. And you guys tell me I was thinking about this. If well, let me answer your question. Then we'll go back to what this had decided to work. You know, he was really hurt. I was hurt by these folks that I was now working with.

[01:06:00] And he said, you know, you're my you're my only hope. And I'm hoping that you would work together with me. I could have driven a harder bargain and said, yeah, take me to the final five. It didn't really dawn on me because I was anxious to help him out. And I was so impressed with what they had done. There was no reason for the four of them to have survived the onslaught of the eight of us, seven of us, six of us as we move forward. You know. So I like the audience was like, oh, my God, these guys have so much heart.

[01:06:29] These guys are fantastic. You know, I love these guys. I want you all to win. I really did. You know. So, yeah, he said, I don't know. He said, if I had the idol, would you consider or I've got something I want to talk to you about. I don't remember the exact timing because it was long as 39 days. You know, 19 was I mutinied. There was still 11 days left. No, I had 14 days. Two more weeks to live out there.

[01:06:59] You know, and I was like seventh place. There was people that were there for seven years. It felt like it's what did you want to ask us about the God Idol? Now, if he has this idol and he's the one voted out. I mean, I remember thinking like, OK, so what am I going to do now?

[01:07:16] Even if I even if I get them to vote for him or Becky, if they had voted for Becky, could he have used the idol to save Becky? And it would have bounced off. And the next most votes, me, for instance, would have gone home. Yes, I believe that because Jeff had said that, like, the idol has to be played after the votes are read. But I think he would have had to, like, give it to Becky to play, technically speaking.

[01:07:44] But yeah, I mean, we see this in Panama, right? Where I think Sally was like, Terry, use the idol on me because you're immune. So I think it was easily transferable. Yeah. So there was sort of no way to to even stay with them. I mean, I really was between a rock and a hard place. I saw no way out. And so given. Am I going to watch these four go home or am I going to watch these four go home? Yeah. I think I chose the right four.

[01:08:12] But I knew that, you know, I mean, look, my game had been ended days and days earlier than that. Anyway. Yeah. Didn't matter. Penner, when you went back and watched this episode, was there anything else that you noticed that was interesting or that you forgot about? I made a couple of notes. I looked great. You know what? I'm saying not to say you don't look great now, but I was like, wow, look at this six pack on Penner. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, who the hell is this guy?

[01:08:42] I was 44. I looked great. You know, now, listen, I've put on obviously a lot of weight, but I, you know, I mean, a lot of stuff has happened in my life, but I would love to get back to I would love to get back to that. Maybe 26 days in Fiji could do the trick. Hey, you hear that, Jeff? 26 days in Fiji. I don't know. I'd have to wheel myself out there. But, you know, I wrote this.

[01:09:08] I wrote, I was never more alive, seriously playing for my life, making myself indispensable. And, oh, and I talked to myself in a hero's terms. Not that I was a hero, but I was the hero of this story. Right? Yeah.

[01:09:25] And I was able to, I knew that 39 days where the, where the first act ended after nine or 10 days, where there was going to be a plot point, which was the switch up. The halfway point was on that day, day 19, which is halfway through 39 days. So I knew there was going to be something. And then we're halfway through the story. And as I said, I was like, you know, in a hero's journey. The second, there's four acts.

[01:09:55] There's the first act. The second act is twice as long as the first act. It's the first act and the last act added together. Right? It's the middle. And then there's the last act. So in a two hour movie, you've got 30 minutes, you've got 60 minutes, and you've got 30 minutes. Okay. So halfway point of a two hour movie, 60 minutes. Halfway point of a 39 day story is day 19. And that's when they had the mutiny.

[01:10:20] The second half of the second act, that is from day 19 to day 30, 10 days in there, is when the hero is at his lowest. When everything goes wrong. When you're locked up in a cage and everybody's against you and you realize you're not going to be able to survive. And of course, in a happy story, you get out and then you save the day and you save the girl and you become the prince or whatever it is.

[01:10:48] My story, I got blown up. But I literally said to myself, okay, now you're in the cage or at the bottom of the ocean. You've been locked away. What are you going to do? How are you going to be the hero? How are you going to get your ass out of this situation? And the only way to do it was to put my nose to the grindstone and literally shovel my way, fish by fish, piece of wood by piece of wood, out of the situation. And I did it.

[01:11:15] So I felt really like the hero of my own story. I had forgotten that, but it was true. I really did think in those terms. I think that's so beautifully expressed. I mean, again, it's something you bring up to Lisa Welch almost like as a cudgel in Philippines, right? Of who are the good guys, who are the bad guys. But I think it's a really good point that narrative can also be used as a motivator as well, especially when you do feel like, especially at that moment, you had screwed everything up.

[01:11:42] But I think it also must have been nice to kind of place yourself in a story and be able to figure, OK, how can I write a happier ending for myself if not a happy one altogether? Well, thank you. And that's right. And I knew I was the hero of my own story. I was not going to win this game. It was not possible. I can talk myself into if I got on the final two, I would have made an argument. It wasn't going to happen. I had blown that game up.

[01:12:06] But I had put myself in a position of the decider, the flipper, whatever you want to call it. I got to pick which of these sides was going to go to the end. And in that way, I, you know, in story terms, in hero terms, I threw myself on a sword. I threw myself on the grenade, blew myself up and handed either Yul or Ozzy the win, you know, and did.

[01:12:34] And that was great. You know, in those terms, it was great. Did everybody hate my guts for a while there? Yeah. I mean, not everybody. You liked me. I liked you. I sure you liked you. You liked me, but not enough to not enough to keep me around. He gave me your hat back, though. You know that he he may have liked you personally.

[01:13:00] I think that ultimately, though, he, you know, leveraged you to get the jury votes. Yeah. I harbor no ill will towards you. You're right, of course. No, but he was hurt. I had hurt Yul. You know, I betrayed Yul and he felt justified. I was hurt in cutting me off, even though though it was never stated I would go to the final five or even the final three. That certainly was in my mind. The implication was that we were going to get rid of all of them.

[01:13:27] And then it was going to be fair game when the five of us were left. Yeah. Well, this has been so cool to go through all of this with you. Was there anything else that was on your mind from this that you wanted to say? Well, it was so much fun. You know, I mean, this was so much fun. Yes. And playing the game was so much fun, you know, and it was. I did. I honestly had sort of trepidation about watching it again because I didn't want to bring that up.

[01:13:56] And it is it's interesting, you know, 20 years later that a move that in some ways, you know, allowed me to come back and turn, you know, did made me a bigger character or something. Still filled me with a little bit of dread to see it and to feel that horrible, horrible feeling that I felt. Yeah. But I loved what you said about how in your notes you recalled that you never felt so alive.

[01:14:24] And it's something that, you know, Stephen has really captured in his book that he wrote about a fictional reality television show about how the characters. You get intoxicated by it. And it's why you see so many of us, you know, year after year are still like, OK, I want to I'm still chasing that high of that really is. I think that you captured it so well, that thought of like, I never felt so alive.

[01:14:51] Yes, you are literally playing a life and death situation. It's the virtual life or, you know, but the emotionality, I mean, the emotion, what it does to your body, the adrenaline and the cortisol and all the things that are rushing through you. Yeah. And this high impact, high stakes, high pressure and low comfort situation really is like a life or death situation.

[01:15:16] And I'm not going to equate it to being a medical crisis or a war or something like that. But your body does go through that. And so, yes, wanting to find that high. It's not that everything else in life is kind of boring. My life is extraordinary. I've had I have the most beautiful experiences and have had a very, very blessed life. And at 64, if they called me up and said, would you do it again?

[01:15:44] I'd get back in the gym and I would try to do it again. I would. I mean, that's just the truth because it was a lot of fun, you know, even knowing I'm probably certainly going to get the chop or break something anyway. Oh, we got to keep him around, though, right? He's catching fish. So workhorse catching colds. Yeah. All right. Well, Penner, is there anything that you want to tell people to check out that you're working on?

[01:16:11] Well, there's nothing per se that they can. I mean, I'm working on a play. Oh, I'm actually very excited about that. I've been working on for a while, but it's really coming together now to play about myself and Stacey and our experience towards the end of her life. And we're using horror movies as a context to talk about what we went through. So it's very funny and touching and scary and going to be a wild night in the theater.

[01:16:40] So I'm doing a workshop of that in November. And hopefully if it moves forward, then people will get to come in and see that. I'm really, really hopeful. Yeah, that sounds really like an incredible idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's very exciting and lets me spend a lot of time in the visualizing and working with Stacey, who's still very much with me. Yeah.

[01:17:09] We appreciate you so much. And I cherish any time that we get to have a chat about anything, but especially hearing your survivor stories. And I'm sure the listeners do, too. So thank you so much for being here with us today. You're welcome. And thank you for not imitating me. I don't need to. There's so much restraint, Rob. We have the genuine article. We need some imitation. Yeah. I look forward to talking with you some more during the next season. I hope we get a chance.

[01:17:39] I was going to say, are you all in on the open era, Penner? I'm sorry. Are you all in on the open era? You're going to keep watching 51 and beyond? Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, if I have an obligation, if I know that somebody wants me, you know, I need to talk intelligently about it, then I'll watch it. If it's just, you know, am I free on Wednesday night or, you know, to find an hour during the week to watch it? Yeah, maybe I'll watch it. I had a good time this year. I was watching 50 in them in a bar in New York City.

[01:18:07] You know, that was a riot. We loved hearing your comments on everything with Ozzy, and it was great. Yeah, we had a great time, you know, and I love watching those guys play. Yeah. They're just blown up. That was great. All right. Mike Bloom, what's coming up for you? Well, it's all about the summer reality happening now with Big Brother. But also, this week, I got to release the cast of The Amazing Race 39. Probably did not take as splendid of a European voyage as Jonathan Penner did, but perhaps close.

[01:18:35] So if you want to hear about that group of people, there's a World Cup champion, an Olympian, who's going to be competing. This year, there's a grandfather and grandson who are 54 years apart in age. That's cool. They're going to be racing around the world together. So check that out. It won't be coming for a little bit. It'll be coming the week after Survivor. But you can check that out, as well as all the other stuff we've got going out there on the internet. Oh, and also, come to RHAPCon. I guess that's the last thing I want to plug. Yeah, if you believe this, RehapCon. Milwaukee, Wisconsin coming up, Penner. Wow.

[01:19:04] When is that? August 26th. So right around the corner. We're doing it. The heartland. August 26th. August 26th. Yeah, I can't make it. I'm invited to Paranormal Activity. My friend, Oren Peli, Paranormal Activity, is opening. Paranormal Activity on Broadway. And I'm going to get to go see that. I think one time you had me over. We had a viewing party, I think, at his house. During Survivor, Kara Moen. You have a great memory.

[01:19:34] And he certainly cherished doing that. He's truly an extraordinarily sweet, wonderful guy. And it was a great experience, Mike, that we watched. It's a $15,000 movie. He made the original Paranormal Activity. He spent $15,000. And it's now, I think, a billion-dollar franchise. He is, talk about, you know, manifesting. He's an amazing guy. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye.

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