Is Cirie the Survivor GOAT?

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[00:01:59] Hey, everybody. What's going on? Rob Cesternino, and we're back. And we're talking about the fifth and final discussion here in our series that we've been doing this month, Who is the Goat?

[00:02:23] And today, we're talking about somebody who I think, in my mind, has not traditionally been part of this conversation since we have had the more recently canonized Survivor Mount Rushmore. A fifth inclusion in this discussion. Sari Fields coming off of Survivor 50. I've been looking forward to this conversation throughout the whole series. And back with us to talk about it, give it up for our goat, Mike Bloom!

[00:02:53] Meh! Yes, Rob. Thrilled to be here, trying to prove that I may not always be able to beat him with this, but I can always beat him with this. Yes, and for the people listening to the podcast, their mind is racing. What did he point to? Let's just leave it enigmatic. Let's have people fill in the blanks.

[00:03:11] Yeah. Okay, so today we're talking about Sari. We have done an episode talking about Tony, Sandra, Rob, and Parvati over these last four weeks. But today, we round out our discussion with Sari. We'll give you a link at the end of the episode where you can vote for who you think is the goat, maybe persuaded by some of these conversations, but probably already locked in from the start. Much like a lot of jury votes, Rob. You can say what you want to a tribal council, but not much might be up in the air.

[00:03:41] We're going to do the podcast anyway, and I think that this is a really fun discussion to have today because you have Sari, who is not a survivor winner, but can we talk about if she is the survivor goat? At the end of the last podcast, we flipped a coin the whole way through, and for the fourth time in five weeks, Mike Bloom was tasked with making the case why Sari is the goat.

[00:04:04] But after a week of arm twisting and begging and pleading with Mike Bloom, he has graciously agreed to let me make the case for why Sari is the greatest player of all time. So this whole series isn't just Mike Bloom making the case over and over again why this person is the greatest person to me saying no. Well, yeah, let's pull back the curtain a little bit here, Rob.

[00:04:34] I did try to play your coin that you so graciously lent to me against you to argue on Sari's behalf, but then you had me read the text back on the back of the coin, which showed that it was non-transferable. And so unfortunately, I was not able to do so. So you were arguing pro-Sari. And also from a more realistic perspective, look, you have had to do the Lord. I mean, Jeff's work sometimes, especially when it comes to some of these people like Parvati, Tony, Boston, Rob,

[00:05:03] and making arguments that I know you yourself don't agree with for the sake of this exercise. So I figured it should be my turn a little bit. Sari is my favorite survivor player of all time. I think it makes sense that we try to even things up a little bit more and provide you an opportunity to truly bring us home and talk about somebody who, yeah, as you mentioned, look, when people have made their sort of metaphoric Mount Rushmore, Sari has been thrown in there sometimes even though she is not a winner.

[00:05:31] But I think, you know, one of the whole reasons for this entire exercise was canonized by one Aubry Bracco in the penultimate episode of Survivor 50, Sari's most recent and probably final appearance in Survivor proper when she called her the greatest player of all time, even better than some of the people we talked about in this series, in Sandra, in Tony. So Rob, you are here to really cement Aubrey's argument. In fairness, she did play with Tony in Game Changers, so maybe she doesn't have the full sample. So if you ask Sari, she doesn't remember that though.

[00:06:01] Yeah, okay. So I'm talking about for Aubrey. Aubrey was there on the beach with Game Changers Tony. So maybe she doesn't have the best sample size. All right. But anyway, I'm so excited to talk about Sari because I think that there is an interesting case to be made why Sari is the greatest player of all time. Because I think that almost every single person would say, okay, well, the person who wins the season deserves to win.

[00:06:31] But I think almost every Survivor fan would say, I bet that there are times when the best player of the season was not the winner. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that when it comes to the overall body of work, I think that there are certainly players who have more bullet points in their column, whether they be impressive moves they made, relationships they made.

[00:06:59] But for one reason or several, they are not able to make their way to the end and speak to those points. You know, I think oftentimes the person who wins deserves to win out of the group that is there in the end. But I think depending on who you ask, it may not be necessarily indicative of, okay, this means that by default, they are the best player of the season. And everything they did proved that their gameplay was supreme over others.

[00:07:26] So if there are certainly players who were the best players in their season, who weren't the winners of their season, isn't it also plausible that the best Survivor player could be somebody who just happens to not have won? You mentioned happens though, and we could certainly get into the number of circumstances. On paper, I could agree about this to a certain extent on a seasonal aspect.

[00:07:56] You know, we talked about Parvati last week, and I think that Sandra deserved the win that she did in Heroes vs. Villains, but that is certainly an argument as well of like, okay, Sandra is the winner. Was Parvati the best player that season? And I think certainly there are a number of seasons, something to Cerise's credit that we can say, yes, she was the best player that season in terms of day one to day 24, day 38, whatever time she unfortunately is taken out right before the jury.

[00:08:25] But I don't know, Rob, I'm just a simple man with a loud voice and a floral shirt on. And I believe personally, I'm a meat and potatoes guy, that I think the greatest player of all time, from someone who has played Survivor six times, you know, more than a fifth of Survivor's overall run, if we're counting Australia, should be somebody who maybe won. I would say, base level,

[00:08:54] made it to a final tribal council. I would love the greatest player of all time to be somebody whose jury experience is not being surrounded by seven, eight or nine other people voting alongside them for the winner of the season. Which she has voted for correctly in every single time that she has cast a jury vote, but I digress. I mean, does that speak more so towards the fact that people are able to utilize Cerise's talents and be able to push past her and succeed draft off of that goodwill?

[00:09:24] I think it speaks more to the fact then, way, way more often than not, and I don't have the exact percentages. Cerise is a Survivor player who gets what she wants. And I think that that is one of the most important metrics that we should look at, that there are lots of different ways to try to assert your influence on the vote. But no matter how you slice it, Sari has been exceedingly effective

[00:09:52] about how she goes about making her vote happen. And she does it with a very subtle influence that I don't think that anybody else in the history of the game has been able to do it in quite the same way. I think back to our conversation about Sandra and the things that I talked about with Sandra, about how she doesn't get voted out and she's able to adapt to whatever goes on. I think that Cerise has that to some degree,

[00:10:19] but she has an agency to which that Sandra, I think late stage Sandra, ultimately evolved to become more like a Cerise. She doesn't have the softer edges that Cerise has, and so it's kind of a weirder combination of that she has taken the original Sandra game and then evolved it to assert more agency. But Cerise has always been smooth as butter

[00:10:47] and has always been warm and bringing people in, but she uses that social game as currency to be able to get what she wants to have happen time and time again. You heard it from Jeff Probst himself on the stage at the Survivor 50 reunion about how the producers who have been there filming season after season, they would go back on the walkie like, I don't know how she's doing this, but she's doing it again.

[00:11:16] We don't even understand what's happening. These are the people that make Survivor. It's not even the edit. In the real time, people are mesmerized with what she's able to do as a player, and so we're not here to crown the greatest winner of all time. But in terms of the person who time in and time out, Tribal Council after Tribal Council, I believe 43 times, I believe, has gone to Tribal Council

[00:11:43] and voted out the person that she wanted to go home. Please tell me my facts are right on this. It is a number higher than anybody else and is an incredible feat. I think that speaks to the incredible effectiveness of her game. I mean, I definitely agree with you in terms of the skill set that she is able to utilize. I am in no way challenging. The Riz would be an understatement of what Sarie has been able to utilize

[00:12:12] from the very beginning of her Survivor career. The fact that obviously, you know, the sliding doors moment where Timbertina is a little less antisocial and Sarie gets voted out instead of her. Frankly, I wouldn't want to live in that world because Sarie being kept through that first Tribal Council opens up the door for Survivor history to be made in so many ways. I think butter is honestly a very good metaphor for Sarie because if you take a look

[00:12:41] at like a lot of different dishes in cooking, a lot of confectionaries. Exactly. Rice. Don't talk to Sarie about the rice. Butter is always like a very key ingredient, right? It's a binder. It feels like something that needs to be involved in everything. And I do think, indeed, there are very few times in Sarie's Survivor career where she has been truly blindsided. That she has been, there have been times where maybe she has disagreed with the person who has been voted out.

[00:13:10] But it's not like she comes back to camp being like, I am stunned. I did not necessarily think that was happening. And that speaks to the fact that she has these immaculate social skills. I think the Sandrick comparison is apt in that Sarie is probably the best social player we have ever seen. And just the way she's able to make people feel so good about her, even though for all intents and purposes, they should not. But still, they are able to bring her into the plans

[00:13:39] and at the end of the day, usually have her be able to get the name over the line that she wants to. And so the butter, it's fantastic to have in there. Some of the best dishes across Survivor history, Sarie has been an essential part, just like butter has been in any ingredient list. But, that butter, every single time Sarie gets to the end of a season, inevitably melts. And look, there are very different heat sources that we've seen across 20 years of Survivor.

[00:14:08] Not enough from her own fire, sadly. Exactly. That has caused that butter to melt. But, but, as much as we talk about the Murphy's Law that has been Sarie's on-island career so far, Rob, isn't there a certain point where we have to look at things and say, is this a coincidence? You know, maybe the Survivor Gods have rolled a bunch of snake eyes or rat eyes Sarie's way for the better part of six seasons. But if we go into

[00:14:38] each one of these, how many times can we point out, okay, were these ways that Sarie, yes, lost out due to some circumstances out of her control, but also may have boxed herself into a corner where the worst case scenario happened every single time? Well, do you want to point to an example where she boxed herself into a corner and then I can defend that because I feel like when we go back through everything and maybe I could say

[00:15:07] Australian Survivor versus the world might have been that scenario, but I think in her U.S. Survivor appearances, I really feel like that she was the victim of circumstance more so than she was the victim of her own bad planning. Well, let's go to her very first season here, which, look, was incredibly impressive, three to one, absolutely sensational, helped, you know, change the meta strategy, get the goat, we love it, but she is sitting in a final four

[00:15:36] where it is her, Aris, Terry, and Danielle. Danielle has, for all intents and purposes, flipped over to Terry because she knows how tight of a pair Aris and Sari were. Yes, Terry is the, you know, number one odds on target, but he has this super idol. Aris would be the next highest target, certainly the one that Terry wants to get out, but Aris is also the second best challenge performer out of this entire group. He's no captain of sports. And so,

[00:16:06] yes, the first of many tragic circumstances that Sari will go out is due to this fire making, not the last time that this will happen, but you also have to wonder, like, A, you know, being in this scenario where there's a good chance that Aris wins and then her name is on the chopping block, is that a situation that you ideally want to go to the end with? The other thing is, let's say that she wins this fire making against Danielle, right? Let's say she is able to prevail. If we look at how the final immunity challenge

[00:16:36] works out, Terry actually lasted longer than Aris is and maybe Sari wins this final immunity challenge, but if Terry wins that challenge, he wins the game. I think even if he goes to the final two with Sari, Terry just has this narrative. He has the La Mena people on the jury. He will have won six immunity challenges at that point. So I think that in maybe a couple cases where we talk about like if Sari had just made it one day further and made it to the end, she would have locked up the jury's votes. I think this was not

[00:17:05] necessarily an endgame that favored her in her first season. Yeah, I don't know what she was supposed to do differently in terms of how Panama ends up working out. It is going to be tough for her to be able to, you know, get to the final two with any of those people. We're going to see Survivor change it to a final three. I think that people have said that they want a Terry type to get to the end, but I think it also could be that for it improves Sari's chances

[00:17:35] to ultimately get to the final three. Look at her power in terms of being a person who's changing the game, although we'll talk about that more when we get to fans versus favorites. But I think she does the best she can with the circumstances that are there. Don't forget that Terry also has the Super Idol, which is an issue that Terry would not have even been at that point in the game if he didn't have the Tyler Perry Super Idol at that point.

[00:18:03] So for Sari, I don't know how she could get to the final two. If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration. Then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy-to-understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep

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[00:19:00] I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Just rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. Ouch. This knee is killing me. But I can't stop training. The marathon is in two weeks. Let's get on ZocDoc and find a doctor to take a look at that for you. Okay. Here's a review. Dr. Crowderick really takes his time. No, I don't have time. What about Dr. Charles? His patients say he can help find a quick fix.

[00:19:30] And he's in network. Great, now we're talking. Ah, book it. Booked. One mile down. 19 to go. Bring it on. You've got options. Download the ZocDoc app today. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try

[00:19:59] at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. All right, well, let's go to Survivor Game Changers then. And this is going to be a weird one, right? Because this is the flukiest way anyone has gone out of the game in Survivor history. This is Advantage Get In, Immunity Train, whatever you want to use from it. And I am by no means

[00:20:29] defending this. I am staunchly anti-Advantage Get In, but damn it, this is the role that I have chosen for myself and I'm going to play it with aplomb here. Because of course, as we know, horrifically, Sari ends up going home because she is the only person without Immunity, without a Trinket. Obviously, if these things existed differently or did not exist, maybe things go a different way. I think that the more I was kind of studying

[00:20:59] Sari's seasons, Game Changers might actually be her weakest game. Because I look at, again, she was able to wield some power, sure. She has a really nice move flipping Sarah Lucina at the final 11 to go after Debbie and helping break up this sort of new majority alliance. But I would say that there are a couple of moves that she makes that are maybe a little unnecessary in the post-merge. She has people like Zeke and Andrea who are very firmly

[00:21:29] in her corner who she chooses to cut bait on. The Andrea decision in particular is really interesting because that's one of the few times Brad Culpepper is vulnerable in that post-merge where he loses immunity. And I believe they had just sent Sierra, Dawn, Thomas, Anglum to the jury as well, which would have been a vote and was a vote, I think, in Brad's corner. And so you'd think this is a prime opportunity a la Ozzy, perhaps, not in Game Changers in Micronesia. Take a shot at him. Instead,

[00:21:59] she follows along with the flow, takes out Andrea here and the very next thing she does, which is audacious and we love it and it's why she's a Game Changer, but she gets this vote steal from Sarah which is incredibly admirable, shows again how the relationship she had brokered with Sarah paid off in the long run that Sarah says to trust you, here is my advantage. And she makes this big gambit and it's one of the few times it blows up in her face. It pisses Sarah off because she was trying to use

[00:22:29] her own advantage against her. It pisses Ty off because, remember, Ty, she had basically said like, you're in danger, don't worry, we're gonna try to get the votes away from you only for Sarah to still steal Ty's vote at the end of the day and it also results in Ceri's right-hand woman Michaela getting voted out. It was one of the most confusing votes in Survivor history. I still don't know if we remember the exact circumstances but I think what we sort of take away as a connotation is that

[00:22:58] sort of in retribution for Ceri trying to pull this stunt, Sarah helps sort of lead this ad hoc charge to take out Michaela and listen, again, I don't think her nor anyone could have foreseen what was going to happen the next day but there is a remote possibility that Ty, two idol Ty going on right now says I can protect myself who could I use this other idol on? What's to say that if he does not feel

[00:23:27] as burned by Ceri in that moment that he doesn't play the idol on her? There's a lot there and we're not even at Advantage Get-In we're at the vote prior to Advantage Get-In and we have a bit of a technicality here where that Sarah gives the advantage to Ceri to hold and then she goes to use it and then gets called out of it says this is non-transferable which is a stupid rule

[00:23:57] can we be real about that? That there was a stupid rule a stupid technicality they caught her on the fine print on that one but if it worked and it should have worked it was like a little bit of like a stupid thing in the fine print which is not good game design when you know you have to go back to actually there's a rule if you read on the top of the box and so we were robbed that night of it being like an all-time

[00:24:27] great move you say that okay well Sarah Luceno she stole Sierra Dawn Thomas' legacy advantage but for Ceri to and then she went did she try to vote out Ty who was going to be the ultimate she wanted to use I think initially use Sarah's vote steal to vote out Sarah where she I think she had like her Ty Aubrey and Michaela I think she believed on her side to take out Sarah okay well then now she goes on after that vote and she's probably going to win the season so I think

[00:24:56] it was a worthwhile gambit she was foiled by a technicality and then we go into the next round where then she pulled off a 3-2-1 vote split on I believe on Sarah right and she's going to take out Officer Sarah she's identified her as the person who is likely to win and we all know how advantage getting works out I mean she's doing

[00:25:26] incredible amazing things and she's getting beat by a bunch of rules Mike I mean listen all the best people have gotten beaten by a bunch of rules and it's really tragic circumstances absolutely but you do have to wonder you know the we look back to the the brief giving of the vote steal in a non-transferable way and that speaks

[00:25:56] to again the social cachet that she has we even look at Survivor 50 where Ozzy is able to do the same thing to flat out give an extra vote to Sari because he felt so good about her but could there have been a world where the cachet extended so far at the final six where it could have protected her as well you know where again Ty could have used an idol on her if he wanted to I also wonder in this world if you know advantage getting doesn't happen and she survives

[00:26:25] until the final five I'm not sure who would go out there like if Ty doesn't play one of his idols I guess Aubrey goes out is she really set for the final three the issue was at that final six that Sarah and Trojan and Brad were so locked in with one another if all three of them survive I don't see a world where she makes it to fourth place even so if Sarah goes out at six then you think that everybody just agrees to vote out Sari it could be the thing so it's

[00:26:54] I don't know if Ty and Aubrey are going to be they do vote with Sari here but I don't know Ty might I don't do you think Aubrey would have gone to the end with Sari she certainly did not this last time out but you know they have a connection they have a connection but I think everyone including Sari is fully aware that she will clean up in the end and I think that is unfortunately one of the very few flaws in Sari's game across the board is that I think

[00:27:24] a lot of the players we have spoken about have this this clutch gene in their survivor DNA Tony last last vote of winners at war wins fire making Boston Rob last vote of Redemption Island wins immunity poverty last vote in Australia versus the world wins immunity they have those abilities to say even if I feel comfortable about my game I have an opportunity through challenges or through an idol depending on the

[00:27:55] guarantee my safety first hand without necessarily needing to rely on other people Sari unfortunately does not have that the closest we got to it obviously is what happened in Micronesia but I feel like every other season this is what really shot her in the foot in Survivor 50 was she named what like two or three people in that final eight even who would have taken Sari to the end that's a lot less than the number of people who were in the game

[00:28:25] at that time and so I do think that something that does work against Sari time and time again is despite the myriad ways that she has gone out she doesn't have the ability to be able to back herself when inevitably people are like we can't go to the end with her yeah you brought up a couple interesting things I'll start with the clutch gene and this is not her forte this is not this is not her game so in the same

[00:28:54] way I can't chastise Sandra for not being a competition beast that's just not who she is and while I said it was a point in Sandra's favor that she's a little bit rough around the edges and that people feel like oh I could beat Sandra like she doesn't have that good of a social game I do think that it does work against Sari that she's so good that people recognize that they don't necessarily want to

[00:29:23] go to the end with her but nevertheless she has found people that would take her to the end that would go to the end with her and there have been circumstances that have conspired against her and I'm glad you brought up Survivor 50 where you said that there was only a couple of people who would have gone to the end with her but she found them Mike she had it all set up she was there and she was with Ozzy the one

[00:29:52] person who was just crazy enough to want to go to the end with Sari and because of very bad decision making on Ozzy's part which seems to be part of Sari's legacy as well mostly in her favor but in this case not so much yeah that they happened to be separated but he had the means to save himself it's a completely different endgame if Ozzy doesn't get voted out there at the final seven

[00:30:22] and nevertheless he chooses not to play his immunity idol and then ultimately sets up the circumstances where after Rick Devins goes then Sari is going to be taken out of the game but in the world where Ozzy plays his idol I think Sari goes on to win season 50 of Survivor that's interesting because that's only at the final eight or Isaac got voted out at nine so you think that the dominoes were set up

[00:30:52] so much because yes she found her people she said Ozzy she said Tiffany to a certain extent but to quote the aforementioned Brad Culpepper three does not go into eight off the game board and so you have this alliance that Sari has with Sari Ozzy Rizzo

[00:31:22] and Tiffany and they have four at the final seven and so I think that Rick Devins still goes they have four going into now the final seven right and so Rick Devins ends up going home next probably still and then all that's left is Joe and Jonathan and I don't see a scenario where once Rick Devins is gone are you know even if they pull Rizzo away who else is voting with

[00:31:52] Rizzo Joe and Jonathan to take out Sari Ozzy or Tiffany I mean it could be something yes Rob that gets her to the final four that maybe she's able to win out on votes there but again I go back to that scenario and let's say it is those four I don't know like maybe Ozzy wins that final challenge but is he breaking Sari if a Joe or Jonathan is able to weasel their way into the final four and win immunity they're throwing Sari into fire

[00:32:21] which we've seen multiple times she's not necessarily great at maybe she would beat Rizzo and who knows maybe without Ozzy in the game at that point because remember Rizzo turned on Ozzy he voted Ozzy out there's a good chance at that point that maybe Rizzo feels like even with Ozzy in the

[00:32:58] but I feel like and we don't know for sure the odds are I think exceedingly high that Sari has a path to get to the final three if she can get through that one round where Ozzy doesn't play his idol I her

[00:33:27] most impressive game not only because of what she was able to pull off in that early post merge but because especially at this

[00:33:57] some of these later games not later days is because people realize she's not likely to win a challenge she's not likely to win fire making so we just know if we get to a final four round she's kind of easy pickings right there right then I

[00:34:27] like Jonathan you know Joe wanted to work with Sari to a certain extent but I can imagine that if I

[00:34:57] think it's possible but I don't know if people are necessarily leaving her in the game on purpose because they're not as worried about her and then they reach a point where it's like okay well we can't take her any further I I don't see a lot of evidence that that's happening it certainly could be a factor I would say the thing I would give you is that in the pre-merge I think in season 50 I think that one of the things that helped her was that I think that the players are very aware at how beloved Sari

[00:35:27] is and I think that there was almost like a I'm trying to think of what the right word is of that nobody wanted to be a person that took Sari out of season 50 I don't think that people were necessarily big game hunting I think that other than Jenna Lewis I think that Jenna Lewis was specifically big game hunting I think that she was willing to do it but

[00:36:09] yeah I mean there is when Rizzo I think talked to both of us about this about why he wanted to kind of work with Sari in the first place he does point out this trend that you alluded to earlier of Sari notable success rate vote

[00:36:39] steal so it does almost seem like Sari again is an incredibly skilled player in her own right but you could see people want to utilize her you know be able to be like okay even outside of that meta reasoning like you're

[00:37:08] a tool to use in the game of like well listen I know Sari if I want to have something happen I can utilize Sari to help get that across because she's able to have those relationships and again if a scenario happens to pop up where she's left unimmune in a scenario like we saw with the time she was voted out in 50 where Tiffany was the

[00:37:38] victory myself yeah I think it's hard to parse if that is the thing but I don't believe that people are saying that they are working maybe Rizzo could be the exception of I am only working with

[00:38:10] I don't want to turn it into this yeah of course talking about Sari who was on the older women's tribe in her first season this is the perfect time to bring in this Gen Z talk we haven't talked about Micronesia in terms of how that ultimately played out where we had Sari goes to the final three with Amanda and Parvati and they're ready to go be the final three and so for the first time Sari's first season we say

[00:38:39] actually it's going to be a final two and look this was something that again was out of Sari's control I don't think production has corroborated this but I think the popular theory right is that because of the number of alarming medivacs and quits most recently James you know leaving due to his finger something that Sari pointed out out of a million dollars yep and so it's an unfortunate situation I think it's

[00:39:09] unclear whether or not Sari would have won in a final three vote we've been talking about this a few times with the Parvati episode and it's it's fair to debate it but I do think that you would have loved to have seen it right I mean absolutely and what Sari was able to pull off was great but I don't think I think that both Parvati and Amanda were able

[00:39:39] to make as well listen I know Eliza certainly had some fiery words to them in the moment about how antisocial the two of them were something that has continued in time in memoriam but I do think that you know Natalie and Alexis had a really tight bond with Parvati obviously Amanda had a really tight bond with Ozzy as well as James from a so up in the air right unlike maybe a couple of other series seasons that we can speculate

[00:40:09] about loosely the irony is Rob the best shot she had of getting to the final day is maybe the murkiest in terms of how she would actually do maybe versus Australia versus the world because I think that's a scenario where like I think she would have gotten some support from definitely Lisa and maybe Tommy and Cass but I do think that Parvati would win I won't even try to make the case that I think Sarri would have won the jury and that always seemed like that Parvati

[00:40:38] had the mist over these other players more so particularly with the Australian players that Sarri did not really possess and also the narrative as well right Parvati we talked about this last time the fact that she was able to say every single tribal council I went to someone was calling me out about how I needed to go and I never got a vote against me Parvati is able to also utilize I weaponized immunity idols I weaponized an advantage which again Sarri

[00:41:08] good on her for being able to be given these things given the very tight relationships that she's made but this is another sort of like clutch gene that she's not able to have right is like her ability to find these trinkets lord knows it would have protected her unfortunately a game changers yeah but largely she has not used or have has had to use idols and advantages throughout most of her game and she I believe had not possessed an idol or an advantage in any season prior to

[00:41:38] season 50 when she gets the extra vote from Ozzy and she's able to use it to save herself to her credit and I believe that she is hard and Shan using it on the Nasir vote to guarantee that he went home or you know Marianne using it to cement the Omer vote but certainly from a defensive position though maybe I

[00:42:08] thought I remembered Ceri saying that she had told other people that she had an extra vote so maybe it wasn't like she was so in danger that she had to play it I think it was more that particular vote I recently talked to Rizzo about his game in season 50 and he actually brought that vote up as one of the reasons why he didn't want to vote for

[00:42:37] Jonathan when it council night that he votes with Ceri to vote out Emily and here's Ceri who's vulnerable Rick

[00:43:07] and Emily probably would want to vote Ceri out he could have voted with them to take out Ceri instead he does Ceri's bidding yeah I mean the the optics of that do not look good it looks rather you do if you will but I do think that it showcases the power that Ceri was able to utilize in that moment it really it's it's really the opposite ends of the coin the Mr.

[00:43:37] Beast coin for Ceri right because on one side of Jonathan and Tiffany are on her side but on the other side of the beach the person who is the most vital to her game in Ozzy I think the singular path

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[00:45:06] companies like Mattel Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them with Shopify on your side turn your big business idea into sign up for your one dollar per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer Mike I bet you wouldn't think that I would want to bring up heroes versus villains okay interesting because Sari did last a grand total of four episodes on heroes versus villains it happens it happens to the greats Mike exactly and so for Sari

[00:45:36] I don't know if people make this case enough she was so screwed by being on the heroes tribe she was she should have been on the villains tribe she's on the tribe with people who are really preaching the honor and integrity and the loyalty she is able to work with those people in season 50 but she is I think clearly seen as the least trustful member of this heroes tribe

[00:46:07] interesting I don't necessarily agree and if she was on the villains tribe that perhaps she has a little more rope to work with well first off I think Parvati would have loved that because I think if we're trying to make comparisons here Parvati was much more screwed being a villain than Sari was as a hero because yes maybe there was a moral complicity that made people feel like this is what a hero

[00:46:37] is supposed to do but the fact of the matter is Sari is on a tribe with two people she had played with before one of whom despite her claiming like I don't know why people think me and Amanda are close Amanda voted me out at the final

[00:47:11] stretch of the imagination I mean I personally think that Candice was being looked at as maybe the sketchiest out of the heroes I

[00:47:41] kind of what Sari does to Yao man in Micronesia where it's like this person is I can see them as a personal threat you might think that other people are more so

[00:48:14] able to obscure her threat level in a way that she has so masterfully done in other seasons is the reason why she's the choice here instead of Rupert or Candice or Amanda or James so the body of work is just so incredible in that the body of work is T and she has played in six different seasons of Survivor counting Australian Survivor versus the world and

[00:48:44] she makes it to what sixth place or better five times it is incredibly consistent and I cannot deny that you know a factor that I've certainly talked about in these conversations that I like to pride a GOAT title upon is consistency and I would argue maybe besides like Parvati Sari is the most consistent Survivor player of all time in terms of

[00:49:14] get to sixth place at the very worst every single time except for one especially considering that again when we talk about the challenge weaknesses we look at a couple of these seasons much like Sandra like game changers and maybe this is the Meriden Sari's column if she goes to tribal council in any one of those pre-merged challenges she's gone look luck's a big part of the game you know it's nice that she gets lucky in something maybe

[00:49:44] that's karmic balance they got so lucky in the first half of game changer they're like okay a few for us and a few for you and a lot for us certainly on the original tribe that she was on but is that true post I know she doesn't the likely boot all right so the people post swap were it was her on the tabua tribe it was her and Sarah and so not with Sarah so it's her Ozzie Zeke

[00:50:13] Andrea Troy and and I think I'm forgetting one more person I mean yes but Troy has an idol and we could see another scenario here where if everyone voted for Troy Zan and Troy Zan plays the idol who's someone that he might want to gun for having single handed power over who goes there who's someone who did incredibly well

[00:51:00] so so I'd love to go back to the season 50 finale that we just saw where Mike we were there we saw Sari received a beautiful trophy an award glamorous she was the first ever recipient of the spirit of survivor award yes proving all the fruits of her labias I mean labor were manifested in this beautiful sculpture that

[00:51:30] she got to held aloft yeah but I do think that and I know we're talking about the greatest player of all time but the arc of Sari has been one that has resonated with the fans in a way that no other player I think has been able to have that type of trajectory of her story was one that she started as of course she famously got up off of the

[00:52:00] leaves hold up bro let me speak to that for a second because I did some re-watching of things some re-litigating and I actually think that Sari being afraid of leaves is a Mandela effect because I watched that first episode of Exile Island again and I believe what Sari says is that she's not afraid of leaves she hates leaves she's afraid of the things that exist underneath the leaves that she's afraid when she lifts up the leaves that

[00:52:30] things are to come out but the leaves themselves are and when I actually brought this up to Sari in an interview like oh yeah you're afraid of leaves I am not afraid of leaves I

[00:53:27] I and came out and became one of the biggest trailblazers that the game has ever seen. She changed the entire show in a few different ways. That she ends up being a, and I know I just argued for her to be on the Villains Tribe in Heroes vs. Villains, but that in season 12, we also have the first ever, I'm not sure if it was Sprint, or I think it was a car fan favorite award.

[00:53:55] It was, yeah. Both her and Ozzy got cars. Yes, yes. And so they had the fan favorite award, and you probably would not have envisioned a player like a Sari being the winner of such an award when you have a Terry who's out there winning challenges. And I think that she really did change the idea of what a fan favorite hero is. I've talked about it in The Tribe and I have spoken,

[00:54:23] but that's a big moment in the history of the show. Then, fast forward to season 34 of Survivor, and you have the moment where Sari is walking across the balance beam, and she doesn't, her group, it was an individual, it was a reward challenge, right? Her group doesn't end up winning. And Jeff says, hey, we're going to keep going until you get it right.

[00:54:53] And everybody waits, and we see Sari puts her mind to it and is able to overcome her issues with the balance beam, and she walks across the balance beam, and she has a moral victory. And I said in that moment that she actually soft-launched both the new era and what the show ultimately will become.

[00:55:18] Not a show about winning the game, because listen, Mike, that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is the growth, the experience. And it was Sari herself that changed the show. The game is the lore. The prize is the experience. Jeff Probst himself will tell you this.

[00:55:44] And so who has had the greatest and richest experience? Who could put a monetary value on that? But it was really, it was Sari that did all of this. And it was her arc that really did change what Survivor is. I think it certainly changed a lot of perspective into what Survivor is now. I think especially, you know, there were examples before her,

[00:56:11] I'm talking to one right now, of super fans going on to the show that they love and thriving in it, right? You have on the spectrum of things, the Rob Cessoninos to the Ryan Shoulders of, hey, sometimes, I mean, it's what Sari says in her first travel council, right? Like, my advice to people who are watching this from their homes is stay on the couch. Stay on the couch. But I think that her success certainly has encouraged other people to be able to firsthand feel like,

[00:56:38] you know what, I can go on there, even if I feel like I'm just someone, a layabout, normal person, quote unquote, watching from home. And I can make magic absolutely happen. I don't need to be this kooky character New Jersey cop, or, you know, this smoking hot charity boxer with, like, charisma on charisma, and the ability to, you know, bat my eyelashes and get people to do what I want to.

[00:57:04] I do think that, yes, she certainly has one of the most talked about arcs in Survivor history, but I don't think that should come at the cost of the other arcs that have existed across these people that we have been talking about. We talk about the Boston Rob arc as a great example as well of somebody who grew up over the course of Survivor that we got to see during various different phases of his life.

[00:57:29] We see somebody like Parvati, who was also able to check in with this show and was also able to come in as someone who didn't know anything about the game and hone and harness her skills to be able to, you know, become a finished diamond a couple of times over. Yes, Seri certainly has put forward an incredible narrative.

[00:57:54] But I will say, while some people are within their rights to vote on that as a juror, I don't think we should vote on that when it comes to the greatest player of all time. I just think that it adds to her impact. And if we're talking about the greatest player, she changed the show perhaps the most of anybody in terms of her impact. So I think it's not the only consideration, but I think it deserves at least a mention here.

[00:58:23] In terms of Seri, though, as the goat of Survivor, we're here to debate this. But I think there's actually little debate whether or not she is the greatest of all time when it comes to the traitors. Yeah, so this was going to be kind of my weird quasi hot take, Rob, that I was ready to come in with despite taking the anti-stance here, is that Seri is, I think, one of the greatest reality TV players of all time.

[00:58:53] I don't know if she's the greatest survivor player of all time. Hmm. Okay. Well, just to talk about, and I have been, this is something I had to consider of, you know, is Seri better than the winner of the season of the traitors that I actually played, where I played with Rob Roush. And he was, and I think it's actually very close.

[00:59:19] I do think that Seri is the person that I would give the edge to. I think that Rob had a little bit more of a strong ensemble at the start of the game. And I think that that worked to his benefit to not have to do as much of the heavy lifting in the early, you know, in the first half of the game. He ultimately goes and has to do it all by himself in the second half of the game.

[00:59:47] But I think that Seri coming in as a reality TV survivor player, I think probably had a little bit more of a target on her back and had more to overcome in terms of being somebody who was capable of that. And I think that the fact that she goes to the end with not one, but two people, but like completely snowed, don't even talk to her after the fact.

[01:00:15] It was just such a masterclass in the first season of the traitors. Has anyone drawn the comparison of Seri on the traitors to Boston Rob on Redemption Island? Hmm. Think about it, right? This is someone who comes in with an incredibly high profile, albeit this is a completely new show, that on paper you think, okay, if you're thinking about who has the potential to be a traitor, she would be number one with a bullet. But she's able to find these perhaps more gullible newbies

[01:00:43] or people who were fans of her in the past and utilize that reputation to go to the end with the people she wanted to and then makes a couple of brutal cutthroat moves at the end, which piss some people off. You know, maybe there's a bit of a Venn diagram between Grant Matos and Ari from The Bachelor. But it is interesting in that, much like we talked about with Boston Rob's game, like, I think certainly the argument between Rob Roush and Seri is like, well, Seri, you know, had to play with a bunch of newbies who weren't necessarily,

[01:01:11] you know, reality TV, you know, intelligence. You know, she was the only Survivor player, or I guess Stephanie was, but she was one of the only people from a competitive reality perspective in that group. To which I would say, like, I actually think that, while that did make her a big target on paper, I do think that, again, Traders is such a different game than any of these in that it is a team game. Granted, one team is much bigger than the other one, that I think that actually endeared her to a lot of people, where it's like,

[01:01:40] well, we know Seri is good at these games, so if we believe she's a faithful, which is a big if, but if we do, she's a perfect person to work with, because she can tell a lot of different things that are happening that maybe we can't. Yeah. But I just bring up the Traders, because we're, I think if it's a, it's a easier conversation to have, is Seri the goat of the Traders? And I think that, you know, certainly there are some people that would say, I know Rob was better, but so she's already in the top two. Oh yeah.

[01:02:11] In another show. And I think that to then bring those skill sets over to Survivor, I just think that the thing that she is so good at, she is better than anybody else is at the thing that she does. Could you argue that the other people we're talking about are as good in any one specific area that is anybody else so head and shoulders above the rest

[01:02:39] in terms of how they are in the challenges or what they do from a strategic standpoint? I'm not sure, but I do know that she's so much better at what she does than the next best person at that social manipulation that I think it outweighs the areas that she is not good at. Okay, interesting. Yeah, so this is going back to what I said before

[01:03:08] about how I think Seri might be one of the greatest reality TV players, maybe not one of the greatest Survivor players, is that I do agree that I think you talked with the Sandra podcast, right? Like if we run a season a hundred times, her positioning, her play style is going to be the one to win the most. Obviously it won't be the case with Seri because something will happen with the brand steal and might crash and prevent Seri from winning. But I do think that Seri's skill set is the most useful in any given social strategy show.

[01:03:38] We haven't even mentioned Big Brother yet, but this is a season that she comes into with on paper something that should be an advantage, but in reality it was much more of a disadvantage in her son, Jared, is still able to make a meal of that game and she's making a lot of these big decisions with Izzy and Felicia, even if she is going back and forth a hundred times. And so I do think that some of the most consistent skills

[01:04:06] involved in these social strategy games in general, which is charm, which is manipulation, and which is threat management and picking perfect targets and straight out of the Boston Rob Rulebrook, convincing people that your idea is their idea. She has that on lock. I think what I go to with that statement I mentioned before is that I do think there are elements of the Survivor game in particular. As I spoke about before with Sandra,

[01:04:35] I feel like the goat should embody this more well-rounded aspect. And look, that is never going to be Seri's wheelhouse. And it's unfortunate because I think it's just who she is. But I do think specifically there are aspects to Survivor. And again, we saw this a bit in Big Brother where she did all this fantastic stuff. But then when it comes down to a bunch of competitions, like it usually does in the Big Brother endgame, she couldn't really do anything. She had her back against the wall and was kind of feckless by the end of it.

[01:05:05] I think that Survivor is a game that possesses some of these certain aspects to it personally that she has unfortunately not been able to really get a grasp of, which I think puts her not only out of, you know, the running for a jury vote, but out of the running for goat. And she has been, I believe, exceedingly unlucky in some of these endgames that we've seen. But to go back to my idea of

[01:05:33] if you simulated this a thousand times, I think that there would be some regression to the mean where I think that she could have some normal endgame luck that would result in her winning a fair number of these seasons. I mean, that would be great. I'd like to see it happen because you'd think that'd be the thing six seasons of Survivor eventually roll the dice enough times. You know, you look at the chart, right? It almost always goes to seven.

[01:06:02] But she has been rolling quite low for the better part of 20 years when it comes to Survivor. Or that there is like a body of work that is completely impossible to ignore. So, and that's why it was so amazing that she was in position where Ozzy was going to take her to the end. It would be almost unfathomable to think in her seventh time playing Survivor that she will find another Mark who would want to say, I'm going to go to the end with three.

[01:06:32] It's almost like she's missed her window, but it's the body of work which is just so incredible. It's unimaginable that she found at least one person who was willing to do it this last time. Yes, though, to be fair, does that speak more to this, the meta aspect of Survivor 50, right? Where I do think that and not to relitigate the end game of 50 again because Lord knows we've done that enough times in the past couple of months, but was it also to a certain extent of like,

[01:07:02] Seri would be a good winner for Survivor 50. You know, obviously, I would like to win, but if I don't, like that's what Ozzy has literally said in his exit press, right? Like I would love to, of course, finally win and get $2 million, but if it's not me, I wish it was Seri. Yeah. What if she voices the animal that wins Survivor the cartoon movie? Do you think that that would be their make good that CBS finally does? I mean, maybe they felt like the award and the fan favorite prize were the start of that,

[01:07:32] but maybe that was the lore and the voice of the new animated Survivor movie is the experience or the prize. I think so. Get Kim Spradlin to cast who the animals should be and I think we've got this. All right, Mike, do you have anything else that you want to say on this subject? Listen, I have been pulling myself into not having to make arguments against my beloved Seri Field, so I will rest my case personally. Should she be a goat? I mean, I will say, Seri,

[01:08:01] I absolutely adore you. You are an absolutely incredible skilled player and I do honestly believe that I think she is one of the greatest reality TV contestants of all time. I do think if she is entering any sort of social strategy game and you're like, what do you think it's going to do at least well if not win? I think you put your money on her. Now, maybe to your point, the more we're building out this experience for her, the less she's going to be able to walk onto a show and walk out successful the way she did with the Traders. But then again, Big Brother,

[01:08:31] you had a couple of people know her whole Survivor and Traders resume up and down and she still got to fifth place in the end. So she has surprised time and time again and no matter where she goes from here, I'm sure she'll surprise on her inevitable return to reality TV. All right. Mike, we're going to turn it over to, it's going to be in the hands of the fans. We have a vote. That worked out well for Seri last time. Yes, she's the fan favorite and we'll see who you think is the fan favorite.

[01:09:00] We're going to put up a vote. Go to robinswebsite.com slash who is the goat? No question mark. And... There's no question who it is. We'll take your vote. Is it Tony, Sandra, Rob Parvati, or Seri? Yes, and we shall finally determine once and for all no arguments, no rebuttals, putting a period at the end of the sentence next week, Rob. Yeah, and we'll reveal the vote and tell you

[01:09:30] what you thought. But Mike, this has been such a fun ride to take with you. Yeah, I totally agree. Listen, I know that obviously, you know, we could have done any sort of like regular-deagular top 50 players or, you know, naming our own Mount Rushmore, but much like Australian Survivor, we're going to do things a little different. Rob, I will give complete kudos to you. This was all your idea. And I think the debate style was very fun to be able to, I think, again, everyone has played a flawed game at the end of the day depending on how you see it. And so,

[01:10:00] I do think there are arguments to be made in both corners for each and every one of these people. But, all that is to say, this has all been the definition of splitting hairs. That we are arguing about five incredible players, arguably five of the best players in the 50 season history of this show. No matter what, it's just an honor to be nominated. Yep. All right, Mike, great work. What's coming up for you? Oh, well, it's going to be a big week, right? I would say,

[01:10:29] speaking of Sari, her beloved big brother is upon us. Maybe she'll be back in the house. Things would have had to really go wrong. Like, they would have to time travel back to 2023 and say, Sari, you're doing it all again because I do not, I think there's a reason why she ran screaming to the island not once but twice after playing big brother is that she wanted to wash herself of that entire situation, much like that certain duvet

[01:10:58] that her son was using that one time. But I do think that we got a lot of stuff going on. Of course, if you missed it, the house and theme are revealed for big brother. There's been a lot of discussion as to what the season might entail. You can check out everything I'm doing over at Parade, including exclusive chats with Julie Chen Moonves, with some of the alumni who are at a certain media event around the season. I did a podcast with Taryn this past week as well about everything we know about the season so far and certainly a lot of speculation

[01:11:28] as to what we don't know and hopefully will know in due time because by the time we check back in here, Rob, we will know the cast. It's go time. Yep. We will know the premiere. We'll hopefully know a little bit about what the first couple of twists are involving. So a little bit of bleed from our Survivor talk into our Big Brother talk. But again, it's appropriate that we're ending on Sari. Yep. All right. Well, this has been such a fun series. Also coming to an end, my recap of Survivor Co. Wrong with Chappelle.

[01:11:57] We are going to be finishing that up as well this week. So still time to jump in before we get to Big Brother coming up very soon. July 9th is the premiere day for Big Brother. So thank you so much for joining us. Talk to you soon. Take care of a good one. Bye.