How Survivor 41 Hard Launched the New Era

[00:00:01] Today on RHAP is a Podcast, patron Joey Ulverding is here to talk about how Survivor 41 Hard Launched the New Era. We all remember where we were September 2021. Survivor comes back after a over year plus layoff and this is how Jeff Probst introduces the new era.

[00:00:22] I've missed you. Well, I've missed the jungle and I've missed the ocean, but mostly I've missed our time together. Survivor started out as this tiny little social experiment and it has evolved into one of the most mentally draining, physically challenging and socially

[00:00:37] complicated games ever seen on television and you've been there every step of the way. Which is why we thought it would be fun this season to invite you inside the game a little more, make you co-conspirators so at times you'll know what's happening before the players

[00:00:52] know. You can play along, second guess like this. It's a new advantage, the beware advantage. This advantage comes with risk. So if you want this, you better be sure. What would you do if you found it? I'm going to hide this at the Yassit tribe camp. The other

[00:01:08] two tribes will have one as well. We just want to have fun this season. So we're going to lean into the best kind of survivor fun, the dangerous kind. Plus we're going to increase

[00:01:17] the pace. These players will go 26 days, which means they have to hit the ground running because there will be nowhere to hide and no time to hide. Plus small tribes, no rice, penalties for losing and you got to earn everything. And even then the unexpected dangerous twist

[00:01:36] can take it all away. What do you want from me? We're just trying to evolve the experiment a little more and see how it goes. And we'll do it together. Oh, and for you young future

[00:01:48] survivor players, there's a game within the game just for you. Been too long. Glad to be back. And that's how Survivor 41 came back after the pandemic and here to talk about the legacy of what stuck, what didn't from Survivor 41. Please welcome in a wonderful patron of Rob

[00:02:12] as a podcast. Here's Joey Alberding. Joey, how are you? I am so good, Rob. I'm doing fantastic. I'm really excited to have the opportunity to talk about Survivor 41 because I think there's a very unique sort of place in it. Obviously

[00:02:28] is the first season after COVID and obviously it has a bunch of changes, but I really feel like especially within the new era seasons, it's sort of distance itself as a very unique season and really a unique Survivor season in general because there are so many changes,

[00:02:45] but also just because of the sheer amount of, I don't know, confusion, chaos, I suppose. Dangerous fun as Jeff calls it. Dangerous fun. And that's what this is, I feel like, because we're taking Joey and Joey

[00:02:57] has had so many great calls during the Survivor Q&A. Joey is a guy who does his research, has looked back at this. You've gone back, you've watched all of Survivor 41 and you have a bunch of takeaways. And we're going to talk about what's really become a part

[00:03:20] of Survivor in the new era and what was sort of like a one and done. And I think it's an interesting re-examination. But Joey, before we get into all that, OK, tell people a little bit about yourself.

[00:03:33] Well, my name is Joey Overding. I'm a patron, huge Survivor fan, but I'm kind of a recent Survivor fan. So I watched a little bit growing up, but I only really got into Survivor over COVID, funnily enough. And so I re-watched all the seasons across COVID probably over

[00:03:50] a period of like two years. And I got so into it that it's kind of in some ways sort of taken over my life. But beyond that, I am currently a college student. I'm going into my senior

[00:04:03] year. I go to the University of Missouri for journalism with a minor in film. And currently I intern as a production person at a local news station. And I've been doing amateur podcasts since I was in high school.

[00:04:16] OK. All right. Well, Joey, what was it about this topic that was appealing to you to go back and look at Survivor 41? Well, I think there are a lot of parallels between Survivor 41 and 46. I think when you

[00:04:31] look at the wins of Kenzie and you look at the wins of Erica and the losses of Charlie and Xander, I feel like you can find a lot of comparisons. So after Kenzie won and there

[00:04:42] was a little bit of thought in the community of, well, I believe Kenzie should have won, but I also think that maybe Charlie shouldn't have lost. I think it maybe should have been flipped maybe, but I think there maybe should have been editing or whatever, whatever.

[00:04:57] But anyways, it made me think of my mind, you know, like if I go back and watch the finale of Survivor 41, how many similarities will I see? And I went back and I watched that episode and there were honestly very few similarities.

[00:05:11] I was kind of taken aback at how the editing really, you know, it tried to uplift Erica and we'll get to it all eventually. But for the most part, it was very pro Xander. And even when I initially watched 41, I was shocked that Erica won.

[00:05:27] I couldn't believe it. I really and my whole family thought that, oh, yeah, no, Xander, I don't think he'll win in a unanimous vote. But I do think he's going to win because we've seen so much of him. And that doesn't really happen anymore.

[00:05:40] And that didn't even happen in 42. It's not like Mary Ann got buried in the edit. And I think that also makes 41 have a very unique place as well. OK, all right. So I think it's a fun time to talk about Survivor 41 as we're sort of like halfway

[00:05:56] through these, like on the way to Survivor 50, you know, we have to survive for 46. We just saw, but we are also in the process of what Mike Bloom is doing on the Survivor wish list. He will get to talking about the cast of Survivor 41 later on this week.

[00:06:15] But we're really here looking at like Survivor tried so much stuff in Survivor 41. I think that it's also fascinating to think about. And I know Zach Wurtenberger did a video about trying to piece together the cast of

[00:06:31] the dawn of the new era and this sliding doors idea of what Survivor 41 might have been had COVID not hit at the moment that it did, where there were fire tokens and Rick Devins. And if Mike White had not said, yeah, but is it fun?

[00:06:50] And that really this idea really permeates everything that they try to do. And then they have this long layoff because of COVID. They tried to hard launch so much stuff in Survivor 41.

[00:07:04] Yes, I believe the way that Jeff described it is, you know, when you go a year with that Survivor, you realize what he loved about it and he realized what the producers loved about it. And that sort of created this dangerous fun element.

[00:07:19] And I sort of think it gets to the first like barrage of changes, which is the changes to the show itself, most of which that we still see in effect today. One of the biggest ones and probably the biggest one is the change to 26 days.

[00:07:35] And it's sort of funny how Jeff describes it at the time because he describes it as increasing the pace. We increase the pace. I rewatched the intro of this to prepare for the podcast.

[00:07:46] Yeah. And, you know, I don't know if we're going to talk about this separately, but can we just address Jeff talking to the audience to explain some of these creative decisions? Yeah. And I do think that ties a good amount to the editing.

[00:08:02] But I do think it's very interesting, especially if you want to get a good insight into literally what the producers and what Jeff are thinking at the start of 41. I mean, they tell you they try to be as transparent as possible.

[00:08:16] Like this is what we want to do. Are they super transparent about, hey, we're changing 26 days, parentheses, maybe forever? Not really. But I do think it's interesting when he says, I missed you. Here's what we're changing.

[00:08:31] And for every new major twist they add, like the hourglass twist, they're like, we're doing something different. Some of you might not like it, but we're trying it. I think it's interesting and it sort of speaks to the general thesis statement of

[00:08:44] experimentation, which I think is true of 41. It's an excessively experimental season by its very nature. All these changes. One of the things I thought was super interesting about that was, you know, Jeff comes back and he talks about like, we miss you.

[00:08:59] It's been, you know, it's been too long. OK, but then he's going through it and he's talking about the changes. He's like, what do you want? We're changing the show. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, it gets you a very accurate. We're evolving. That's mine. Yeah. So it's interesting.

[00:09:18] It's like, OK, here's what we're doing. But there's also a little bit of like, hey, look, this is where we got to change it. Yes. And yeah, I mean, the changes to Survivor don't stop there. Obviously, one of the biggest elements throughout the entire season is the Survivor

[00:09:33] diversity campaign, which ends up playing a huge role in the in the trajectory of the season. Which they actually don't address. You know, Jeff talks about we're doing this, we're doing this. And I don't believe that Jeff or production like verbally and maybe

[00:09:51] and maybe that was like a if if you did not know that that had happened, like I don't know, you know, you certainly see the diversity in the cast. But like you didn't you did not know they did not talk about it in the show,

[00:10:06] that this was something that we're that we're doing moving forward. That's true. And it's interesting because Jeff never mentions it. But the actual contestants do like that. That Black Alliance, they say like this is the time to do it.

[00:10:18] Black Alliance, they say like this is the first time we have, you know, the ability to really do something like this. So it's not like they're addressing it directly. But the whole thing, the entire thing is that it's always sort of there in the background of the season.

[00:10:33] And it sort of pops its head in and out sometimes in terms of, you know, direct impact on the story. But it's always there and it's definitely always in the mind of the contestants. And I think it's interesting. And that's a very important aspect of 41 as well.

[00:10:46] And 42, really. OK, Joey, I don't mean to take you off in different directions. I know you have a you know, you're very organized. So, OK, so what's the first thing that we're hitting? Yeah, so the changes to Survivor, there's a lot of things.

[00:11:01] I'm just going to go through the list very quickly. The dangerous fun, the change to 26 days, a big one. The come on in thing, which we address in episode one, the numbered seasons themselves, sort of the lack of an identity for a season.

[00:11:16] The no rice, which is now active in all new era seasons and the taking of the Flint after losing and the one pot, one machete that people get at the start of of the of the game. And that's the changes to Survivor itself.

[00:11:31] And by itself, that's like, wow, that's a lot of changes. But there are also tweaks to the format. There's the three tribe format, which we've seen in every new era season and doesn't seem any doesn't seem to slow down.

[00:11:45] The 18 people, which has been in every new era season and the last time before was on 41 was on here is versus healers versus hustlers. So that's six seasons. It's not not an insignificant amount of time. No swaths for the merge that was obviously rectified in 44, and especially 45.

[00:12:02] But I mean, still three seasons. You're taken to a new island during the finale, which is one that a lot of people forget about. But it is pretty wild. Really adding to the sort of this is the hardest season, everything, which we'll get to later.

[00:12:18] And also, of course, announcing the winner on the island and the immediate reunion show afterwards. OK. All right. So a lot of stuff that we're introducing here into Survivor 41. And it was such an interesting time to do it.

[00:12:34] I know that Survivor had had this layoff in between when we have Survivor 40 and the airing of Survivor 41. But so many people had found the show during the pandemic, people like yourself. And could you just describe a little bit about what was your reaction

[00:12:53] to somebody who watched a lot of Survivor during the pandemic? And then like, OK, great. I'm ready for more like the experience of watching this thing that I've fallen in love with live. And now it's so different. Yeah, I did not actually watch 41 live,

[00:13:12] but I did see it without knowing anything about it. So it was right after winners of war. And I had the group chat saved of me and my brothers talking about it. And I remember we were all like, wow, they sure are changing things.

[00:13:28] And your reaction to an episode one is like, wow, they're trying. They're really throwing a lot of things at the wall. They're going for it. What do you watch? The know it all's after the first episode. Yes. OK. Yeah. And so they threw this is very much.

[00:13:43] I don't know if this is everybody's thought, but certainly mine. And I believe yours was optimistic, Joey. Yes. It's sort of cautious confusion, but optimism. OK. But I think as the season goes on. Normally, that's like my vibe of confusion, but optimism.

[00:14:00] Yeah, that's a that's a good, good, good thought. But yeah, no, as the season went along, I was much more like, what are they doing? Like when the do or die twist happened? I was I was like, what? And that's a sort of forgotten twist, too.

[00:14:16] And yeah, there's a lot of things, a lot of things. Yeah. OK. So how do you want to go through all of these changes? Well, I think the changes to Survivor, honestly, there aren't a lot there's not a lot to say about it.

[00:14:30] I mean, sure, there are changes 26 days, but and up for the, you know, they say increasing the pace and whatever, you know, you could analyze that as much as possible. But the fact of the matter is it was all of these changes

[00:14:42] basically changed the way that the survivors, you know, survive the way that they live, the way that the game is played. And now creates the infinite, you know, question of which era is harder. What's the hardest era? You know, but in terms of actually changing the game,

[00:14:57] I think you have to look at the advantages themselves. And they added a lot of new advantages and a lot of new twists to the game, which also made it harder on the new contestants. Yes. Throwing a lot of things at the wall.

[00:15:09] Joey, do you think that Survivor had a branding problem with the new era in the way that they sort of like, OK, we're doing away with the themes? It's just going to be numbered. And this is going to be a new era.

[00:15:26] Nobody asked for a new era, but here it is. And it's starting and we're not really looking like, what do you want from us? It's the new era. And this is how we're doing things. And we, you know, introduced a lot of stuff.

[00:15:41] But I think that we also sort of unceremoniously dropped things that people really did like about Survivor, like 39 days, for instance. I think it's very interesting because I think that they had an angle. They wanted to approach the new era and Survivor 41 at,

[00:15:59] but they accidentally completely wiped away any identity that the seasons had, because, I mean, not only is it, you know, oh, well, they got rid of the title. It's just Survivor 41 now. That's that's not exciting.

[00:16:10] But also, if you look at the advertising for the time, it's very generic and it's the advertising you see today, too. It's like new season coming soon. Survivor. Yeah. Watch it. And if you look back at the ads from even just, I don't know, like

[00:16:26] Kageyan, it's very unique, very striking, you know, brains versus beauty, versus brawn. And now it's just like new Survivor. Yeah, Joey, the thing that I will say that from around this time was that Jeff also adopted the idea.

[00:16:41] And while it's not like on the page in the actual Survivor 41, is that somewhere in between Survivor 41 and 42 that Jeff really co-ops this idea of the monster, the monster is coming. And I do believe like in the like lead up to Survivor 41,

[00:16:59] Jeff talked a lot about the monster. And I think it first gets mentioned in Survivor 42 that the game is the monster coming to get the contestants. Yeah, they actually do start that in 41. And it's very interesting.

[00:17:15] I listened to a lot of the press that he was doing at the time, and he he was so adamant about this idea. He was like Survivor is like a horror movie when there's a monster on the other side and you just see it.

[00:17:28] And it makes no sense. But I kind of appreciate the fact that he is so much passion for this idea that doesn't really make sense. But I'm glad that he believes so strongly in it, even though it didn't add up to anything.

[00:17:42] Yeah. OK, so Survivor 41 is going to introduce a lot of these things. Well, I mean, what what do you feel like is working here from Survivor 41? Because I just that from a top level view that I think that my feelings on Survivor 41

[00:18:01] that I feel like I've been kind of down on Survivor 41 over the last couple of years. And I went back to like for this podcast, I was trying to review a bunch of things. And I watched Peridium's review of the season that he did like right after it.

[00:18:18] And like, I feel like that there was a lot of good in Survivor 41 that I feel like I kind of forgot. And I feel like that my lasting impression was sort of like the hourglass and like you didn't the winner didn't have an edit

[00:18:32] and it was confusing and there was a lot of twists. And I feel like that my like lasting impression of Survivor 41, what is that? It's kind of a mess and hard to follow. But but I feel like that if you go back and watch it,

[00:18:50] maybe that isn't actually the case. Um, that's that's an interesting thought. And I kind of am with you in the sense that when I was initially sitting down to rewatch this season and take all these notes, I was thinking in the back of my mind,

[00:19:04] you know, Survivor 41, I just don't think it's a good season. And the more I watch it and when I watch that season, I gradually like grew to appreciate it. I'm not necessarily saying it's a it's even a good season,

[00:19:16] but I do appreciate it way more now than I did. And I think the thing about it and the reason why it feels like a mess really does come down to they through they throw so much new stuff at the wall. It's like the naked gun of storytelling.

[00:19:29] They just throw as many things as possible, as many new advantages as they can. Yeah. And most of them don't really work. I mean, the beware advantage is sort of a new staple. And it's it's been in every new era season.

[00:19:44] And that's like that's like the tame one, honestly, losing your vote. And having to do that. But I mean, they had the infamous phrases you have to say. I truly believe butterflies are dead relatives saying hi.

[00:19:58] Joey is wearing the shirt, which I believe you said it was CBS merch. Yeah, I'm not sure if you can still find it there. I wouldn't be surprised if you can. So, you know, you can get a goat on AstroTurf one and a broccoli

[00:20:12] is just a bunch of small treats, I think. So, you know, I'm sure everybody really wants that. You know, I remember at the time I thought that people were high on that, that I feel like we have. Have we dropped these sort of like having to do something

[00:20:30] silly to activate the idol? I feel like that we had the beads in Survivor 43, knew the birdcage in Survivor 44. But has Survivor sort of like abandoned a you have to do some kind of like a silly errand to be able to activate your idol? That's a good question.

[00:20:53] I mean, certainly no silly errands as much as this one, which is probably the silliest errand. Like, for instance, by the time we get to Survivor 45 and 46. Now it's not you have to do some kind of task. Now it's like you have to almost like complete a challenge.

[00:21:12] We saw in Survivor 45 the beware advantage. Required, you know, we had Sabaya had to melt the candle, but we saw like that there there was like you needed to get people to basically complete some kind of like scavenger hunt. We saw in Survivor 46 people had to,

[00:21:32] you know, fill out some kind of puzzle. We saw the gem had to like measure and do some kind of equation. So I feel like that we've almost like completely gone away from the silly to now it's almost like you have to complete a challenge

[00:21:47] to activate the beware advantage. Yeah, and my thought on that is it's probably, you know, like they got I do think they got a good amount of blowback, especially by the end of 42 on on the the fun phrases thing.

[00:22:00] And I don't think the bead thing, I think that's basically a challenge as well. Maybe it's a little more, you know, quote unquote fun. But it really is just like another challenge. It's not too dissimilar from a scavenger hunt in the sense of like

[00:22:13] or even melting of the candle in terms of like you need to do this to do this. And also, I think the phrases kind of didn't work in the sense that when you said it, everybody knew you had an idol.

[00:22:27] And maybe that was intentional beware advantage after all. But I don't think it helped the gameplay of the season necessarily. But yeah, I mean, there are way more advantages to I mean, the journeys, the journeys really started here.

[00:22:41] I mean, technically, they're an island of the idols and stuff like that. But the journeys, as we know them now, really started with 41 with the riskier boats, get an extra boat, get on a boat, choose a tarp or a steel about.

[00:22:55] And there is also the knowledge is power, which I do think is the one like advantage that I think really works in 41 and and the seasons it's been on. I think it's very interesting and maybe it's a bit too powerful and it probably is a bit too powerful.

[00:23:09] I mean, that's why people play around it even even nowadays. But I think I think it really created some of the most exciting moments in 41 and 42. Yeah. So knowledge is power creates this really iconic moment in this season where you get the all right.

[00:23:28] Liana asks Xander, can I have your idol? He's like, no, but you could have this fake idol. And it's a big moment in the season for sure. And knowledge is power, I think, is so interesting because it's in 41, 42, 43. Right. But now it's it's gone.

[00:23:48] And I feel like we're never going to see the knowledge is power again. And I feel like that Jeff says the best thing about the knowledge of power is that we don't have to put it in the season. People are afraid of the impact.

[00:24:01] Its power is felt beyond the time that it's even used. Yeah. And that's sort of funny because that can be that mantra can be applied to a bunch of things from 41, such as the hourglass twist in which people now sort of like

[00:24:18] don't necessarily trust Jeff now trust what he says because of the hourglass twist. And you know, the fact that, you know, half the half the contestants said said that they won and then they didn't. And I think that's interesting.

[00:24:32] I and obviously 41 has a lot of twists that sort of see themselves today. Now, I mean, you have the shot in the dark. They added the shot in the dark. It's now a staple of the new era, and I don't really see it going anywhere.

[00:24:46] Anytime soon, you have the mergatory everyone's favorite. You have the rice negotiation, which I guess is now a staple since when. But the split travel council, which is also now a staple. But then you also have like the do or die,

[00:25:05] which was only in 41 and 42 and never found out. Yeah. So what are some of the things that are like the do or die? The things that are only in Survivor 41, 42. And can we talk a little bit about why?

[00:25:20] Why maybe they didn't stand the test of time in the new era? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stuff, especially in the pre-merge that you really don't see. I think about there's there's one thing where three of the contestants,

[00:25:33] it's Sidney, Brad and Tiffany, have to sneak out of camp and they get to this this island and they're like, hey, you can either choose a tarp or you can choose to risk your votes for an extra vote. And it's very, you know, like complicated, overly complicated.

[00:25:50] But blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Brad gets an extra vote and then is gone in the same episode, I'm pretty sure. Or maybe the next episode. That's something that we don't really see as much. It's like there's a lot of, you know, like, ooh, the prisoner's dilemma.

[00:26:05] There's a lot of that sort of thing. And I think also the journeys aren't the same now. It's much more like, all right, separate and do your own activity. While at the start of the new era is much more like talk amongst yourselves

[00:26:21] and probably eventually reach a consensus. But don't say it explicitly, which is kind of what it became. Like, for instance, Evie and Deshawn were had a journey and they talked about it and Evie was going to tribal council that night.

[00:26:36] So they were like, well, I'm not going to risk my vote. And Deshawn was like, well, OK, I'll risk buying. And that was it. Not not a lot of intrigue there. But that's not something they do as often now.

[00:26:49] But for the most part, it's been pretty consistent throughout the new era. I mean, the merger is still there. The split tribal council is still there. The hourglass twist obviously is not still there. But I mean, there is so much blowback from that.

[00:27:02] I mean, that was basically the big takeaway of the season was the hourglass twist is not ideal. For sure. For sure. And in a lot of different ways, both for the players on the island and also for the audience as well.

[00:27:16] So, you know, let me know when we're going to like dive into the hourglass. Yeah, but we can dive into the hourglass right now. It's really interesting because the momentum of the season completely goes to a crawl as soon as the hourglass.

[00:27:31] And that's something with a do or die as well. Like the episodes leading up are the ones with Jeannie going home and J.D. going home and the desolate the decimation of the tribe. And they're good episodes. And then we get to the hourglass episode.

[00:27:47] Nobody gets voted out. Yeah, just a just a complete kill of momentum. Well, Joey, just as somebody who like lived through it in the real time. So the Survivor does this and they fix it in Survivor 42. They made it a two hour episode with the hourglass.

[00:28:04] But I think it's episode six, if I recall. And yes, it's a cliffhanger. What's Erica going to do? Is Erica going to break the hourglass or not? And it's like the dumbest cliffhanger. I was like, well, why wouldn't she? Why wouldn't she do it?

[00:28:19] Peridium in his review on the situation that he described it as, he actually thought it's kind of an interesting dilemma for Erica. If you give her immunity either way of that, he described it like the like a trolley problem of Erica's got to pull the lever of this.

[00:28:41] Erica, like want this six people to be immune or these six people to be immune. But if you make it that, OK, break the hourglass and she's safe or don't break the hourglass and she's going to go and be one of the people

[00:28:53] that's vulnerable, there is no decision in that. But do you think could the hourglass just have been salvaged if it's Erica deciding who's safe and who's not? I know I would have been better. I mean, yes, it would have been better.

[00:29:11] But I mean, I think if you're going to do that, you have to tell the contestants that Erica is going to have that decision. And maybe don't make them like go all out to do a challenge. And yes, really overexert themselves and then reverse the decision.

[00:29:30] Another thing about that, too, I don't know if they I can't remember if they did this in 42, but in 41, Erica doesn't even participate. She's she's not chosen for the teams based on random draw. Yeah. As well as Nasir.

[00:29:45] And so the tribe that wins does like a fake game of rock, paper, scissors or as Danny calls it, paper, rock, scissors. Yeah. And if I recall, they choose for Erica to go. Right. So what do they merge with? And when they merge with 12? Yes, they merge with 12.

[00:30:03] And so they had five or they had two teams of five and then two people in the middle. And then they picked one person to join them for the feast. Right. And then the other person had to go make a decision.

[00:30:15] And then they get Nasir to come with them for the feast. And he also got immunity. So that was that was sort of the choice. And I think I think that by itself is interesting for the feast.

[00:30:28] But I think when the other half of this is this person gives the exile island for two days and also can just completely undermine this entire challenge that we just did. I just I just don't see it working. I just don't.

[00:30:42] And as somebody who likes the mergatory more than basically everyone, I think that it would have just been better if it was just left as is. If it was just even if Erica gets sent to exile island for a day or two

[00:30:56] and then comes back, I think I think it would have been more interesting. It would have been unfair for Erica, certainly. But it's better than being unfair for everyone. And that's what the hourglass twist ended up being. Yeah. I forgot that it's so long.

[00:31:09] And it's five forty two. Rocks Roy is like, oh, this is great. I love being by myself without the tribe. But it is wild that they send them away for so long. Yeah. And I mean, of course, Erica's relationships were already bad

[00:31:23] because the the I can't remember the tribe name, but the blue. Yeah. Lou, thank you. Was already wanting to get rid of her. She was the target. I mean, that's basically why they sent her to exile island, because they're like, well, we don't want her to have immunity.

[00:31:37] We'd rather have this to have immunity after the random draw. So that especially completely hurt Erica's game. And it's very impressive that she was able to get back. You know, I feel like that that may be the challenge

[00:31:50] throw to get rid of Erica, I think might have been like a little bit manufactured. I feel like that survivor loves to do a thing of like the person who ultimately wins the season. If you go back and watch, they almost lost.

[00:32:04] Like I feel like that with the Kenzie thing. I feel like that in talking with Tiffany, she's like, Kenzie was never going home. That wasn't really I was never going to vote out Kenzie. But in the edit, it definitely feels like boy, Kenzie dodged a bullet

[00:32:19] when Randon got medivac. I think Kenzie would have gone home. And then like in hindsight, like so I do wonder, like I know they were trying to throw a challenge, but was it was it 100 percent to vote out Erica or were they trying to get rid of Sydney?

[00:32:34] I think that that is debatable. Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. And one thing the show doesn't show is Danny and Sydney's relationship was very strong and Danny was very adamant about not throwing the challenge. So I don't know.

[00:32:49] That's that's one of the things about the editing, which I'm happy to get into now. Yeah. Let's talk about the editing, because I think that there are some things that they are trying and then things that are still in Survivor to this day,

[00:33:00] but also maybe some things they tried that they are not still doing. I think I think they're the editing is the most interesting part of this season because there are sort of two different like like splits.

[00:33:11] There's the breaking of the fourth wall, which which Survivor does a lot in 41, way more than they ever did in any other season. And then there's the editing of the contestants journeys themselves, which is something we see way more of today.

[00:33:24] And we see the the effects of the breaking of the fourth wall. We sort of talked about it already. But Jeff talking directly to us, he says that he's inviting us inside the game. They show him hiding an advantage. They say he says first tribal council.

[00:33:41] Here we go. You know, stuff like that. It's very like I want to bring you into the Survivor experience. Right. And I don't know if people really like that. I mean, I thought it was cool going back to it, that they showed the production

[00:33:56] and they were going to show us like more of that. And I kind of feel like I don't know. I wasn't against that. I'm surprised that they got away from that, like showing at the challenge, for instance, how many people are there.

[00:34:09] But I don't know if they just felt like that it broke the illusion of Survivor too much. Well, I think it goes to something that's pretty big in the editing, which is the references to covid quarantine.

[00:34:21] I mean, they they show David Boche and they have a confessional where he says, yeah, it was traumatizing being a neurosurgeon at this time. And and Danny talks about how he binged seasons during covid and things like that. They're very open about the whole process.

[00:34:37] And that's another thing. Very, very much. It's it's the Survivor like confessional style and the the editing changes to be a lot more about other seasons here. It's a lot more about my experiences with Survivor. I watched the show this long. I've I've taken in this.

[00:34:57] I want to be like this player. I love this season. I you know, it's like a celebration of Survivor almost from everybody involved since, you know, most everybody being cast at this point and certainly now is our fans are super fans. Yeah. And that's about it.

[00:35:12] Something else that I noticed was that they're talking a little bit about like we get to have this experience. Other people, they don't get to do this right now because when the season is filmed

[00:35:24] and I don't know the exact dates, but I think it's either like March or April of twenty twenty one. So, you know, 2020 happens sort of wipes out the whole year of Survivor. They like end up coming back like a year after they were going to film

[00:35:38] the original Survivor forty one. But really, I mean, people are still very much like in masks and the world is very much not, you know, reopened at that time. And so for the people going out on Survivor forty one, they're sort of like in their

[00:35:58] own like they used to use the term a lot, like a bubble of that. Basically, they go through their 14 days of quarantine. It's like, hey, we don't have to wear masks. We're out here in our own like little like non covid world.

[00:36:12] Yeah, and I think I think that sort of ties in the fact that it's so different. It's you know, its own little bubble, I think is part maybe part of the reason why the editing and the changes for Survivor feel so vast,

[00:36:24] because even in the editing themselves, you know, they'll have the contestants saying things like this isn't anything like season one. It cannot be overstated how hard this season is really say. I mean, you could say that that's sort of gassing the season up, but I still say.

[00:36:40] Yeah, I still say that also. But, you know, it really, I think, shows that like they wanted to do something different after covid and they really wanted to change things up. And maybe they experimented a bit too much, but they were really adamant

[00:36:55] that it was the right thing to do. Yeah, but it's interesting, the editing, because there's there's a lot. There's a lot. One of the most interesting things to me is something that they didn't really do in previous seasons, that they do a lot now, which is flashbacks.

[00:37:10] We saw this with Jem's Idol in 46, but it happens a lot in 41 where they show us information afterwards that we don't get in, quote unquote, real time as the audience. One of the biggest examples of this is Erica revealing that she smashed

[00:37:25] the hourglass and then flashing back to, you know, previous, I guess earlier in the day or the previous day when she did that. And also the beware advantage when we see when Liana asked Xander, do you have the idol?

[00:37:39] We get a flashback to the plan that we didn't see put in place about getting this fake idol and fooling Liana. And, you know, that that's something in editing that kind of kind of bothered me, not necessarily for the fact that, you know, it's it's nonconventional storytelling.

[00:38:00] I appreciate that aspect of it. But I think Survivor has Survivor strength has always been it's it's unpredictability, but still being able to be a linear show. You see the start of a day.

[00:38:14] You can know that by the end of the day, you'll you'll have the full story. And that just wasn't true of 41. And I think maybe they thought it wasn't exciting enough. They thought that they had to do that. And they still think that they have to do that

[00:38:28] in order to craft a compelling narrative. But the the thing that makes Survivor so interesting and I feel like this is something that many people have said, but it's it's the human on human connections. It's it's the it's the strategy.

[00:38:43] But it's also, you know, managing all these different kinds of people to try to get yourself to the end, to win a million dollars. And I think at this point, it was so focused on the twists and advantages that they thought, well, how's the how's the best way

[00:38:55] that we can get the full extent from this advantage in the edit? And that bothered me. Joey, do you feel like that Survivor is still using that device of editing these stories out of order? Editing these stories out of order, I think that they

[00:39:12] they don't do it as much, which is good. But I mean, I think I think they do to the extent that I mean, it happened last season in 46 with Jem's idol. And that was kind of what didn't end up being a pivotal piece to the puzzle

[00:39:26] in the sense that Jem got blindsided with that idol. But I think I think that they still are a little there because the advantages are still there. I think there's a part in the back of their mind where they say, well, we have to show all the advantages.

[00:39:42] We have to show, you know, the impact of these. But we also can't overload the viewer too much, which is something that they did in 41. So I think it's an interesting thought. I don't have a great answer, but they do to some extent.

[00:39:56] Certainly. Yeah, I think one of the most fascinating things about this conversation is that Jeff will do like a lot of press now and talk about how, for instance, I think that the whole idea of spicy Jeff is like, hey, we change something. I'm bringing it back.

[00:40:18] I'm going back to what I what I used to be doing. And I feel like that this is often met with people seem very excited when whenever they announce, hey, you know, this thing we changed. I'm going back where we're stopping it.

[00:40:33] And I feel like that Jeff's demeanor is, you know, very fascinating to track through the new era. Yeah, that's that's a great point. And, you know, I think part of it is obviously like, you know, I wouldn't say nostalgia like glasses necessarily, but I do think

[00:40:52] that there is a sense of like, well, the old seasons had this. So therefore, if the new seasons don't have this, then it's a downgrade. But I think I think the experimentation in Survivor 41 is interesting. I think I think it's something that had to be done eventually.

[00:41:09] I think if you look at a survivor had been experimenting throughout the late 30s, but I think after Island of the Idols, they they do think that they had to change things. And they changed things a little with winners at war with the fire tokens.

[00:41:24] But I think that's what why after Island of the Idols? I think the controversy and especially the reaction after Kelly and Jeff's little sit down, I feel like Survivor knew that they had to have to be more. I don't know.

[00:41:41] I don't know the best way to describe it, but the response was bad and they had to improve it and they had to do a better job at highlighting contestants journeys. And I think that's something that absolutely shows in the edit

[00:41:54] and absolutely shows in 46, because with Kelly, we didn't we didn't really get a sense of what she was actually going through her actual emotions in the game. She she basically tried to tell us she told the producers

[00:42:06] but we as the audience didn't see it and we didn't see, you know, what Dan was doing. And I feel like it's not exactly the same thing. But in the new era, you get a lot more of this is what I'm going through.

[00:42:18] These are the emotions I'm feeling. This is this is what I think honestly think of the game right now. It's getting to me. I mean, we saw in 46, we won the first big moments where you see with Kenzie is her crying, you know,

[00:42:31] and you wouldn't have gotten that even in edge of it. Well, maybe an edge of it, but not David versus Goliath or any of that. Well, I know that's and it's interesting that you bring up the island of the idols because they do feel like that.

[00:42:43] The other thing about Island of the Idols was and there was, you know, all this controversy and there were a lot of like if Survivor 41 was going to be a normal season, there were going to be a lot of new things in place from production

[00:42:57] to be able to, you know, give the contestants, you know, more resources in terms of like being able to talk about anything that was an issue. And that was the new first season that was going to be filmed after that.

[00:43:13] They had already filmed Winners at War and that, you know, Winners at War was of, you know, film, you know, back to back with season 39. So they had already planned a lot of new things that they were going to try to be doing for 41.

[00:43:28] But then that was sort of then coupled with all of the changes that also came out of the year off and then the COVID restrictions and the diversity pledge. So they really were like trying to add a lot more layers to this production.

[00:43:47] Yeah, you know, we already sort of talked about the changes to the format, but that's an important one that's sort of unseen is that response and that need for a response in its own way. And I do think it ties into the sort of editing for the contestants.

[00:44:02] I already talked about the crying in 46. But I mean, when you look at the questions that Jeff asked during Tribal, especially for somebody who's about to be voted out, it's a lot of. It's a lot of why are you here? It's a lot of what is your journey?

[00:44:16] And basically every contestant gets their general exposition. They get their videos, their flashbacks, the images of them when they were younger, et cetera. And that's something that we see, you know, still today. And it's not going away anytime soon. Yeah.

[00:44:30] But also, Joey, I think a lot of that came out of the diversity initiative and a lot of those the former contestants who came forward and said, hey, I didn't get to talk about like, you know, you portrayed me this way.

[00:44:43] And I think that the production ends up being like very sensitive to trying to make all of the contestants feel good about how they're being portrayed on the show. I don't know if necessarily I think that the audience wants to do that,

[00:44:59] but I think also it can be a little bit hard to service so many things of like making the contestants all feel like they're seen, but also to give the audience a story that ends up being a little bit more of a easy to follow narrative.

[00:45:22] Yeah, and I think that's something that Survivor has done a better job at over time, but I think 41 has those moments as well. There's a lot of, you know, do we do we really need to know the story of, you know, Brad Rees or whatever?

[00:45:37] But there's also some really honestly like emotional moments. We get Ricard talking about how hard it is to play Survivor when you're deaf in one ear and we get the editing sort of focusing on how it's tough to be, you know, a strategist and communicate

[00:45:52] with all these people when people don't think anything different of you, when you're completely processing things in a different way and having to read lips. And we also get one of the most touching moments in Survivor history when Danny is talking about the passing of his father

[00:46:06] in a car accident when he was six years old and talks about the emotions of that and how playing Survivor has allowed him to finally accept and love his father and want to ask him more.

[00:46:16] And the next day he wins the immunity challenge at do or die and breaks down and sort of holds his head as he's against the floor. You wouldn't have seen that on other seasons. And I think that's one of the big positives

[00:46:29] of the experimentation factor of Survivor 41 is you do get insight into the contestants. Sometimes it's very, you know, heavy handed and it's a little too much. But I mean, it's emotional. I mean, look at Survivor 46, that beautiful confessional about Tevin and the fish about his late father.

[00:46:48] I mean, you wouldn't have gotten that on earlier seasons. And I think it's beautiful. And I think the longer runtime also helps them be able to have like a little bit of a balance. Maybe you don't need to do it for every single contestant

[00:47:00] that we have to flashback like the flashbacks in the more recent seasons. Like, you know, they probably maybe flashback about like maybe for five or six contestants as opposed to trying to get to almost all of them. In these early seasons of the new era.

[00:47:17] And I think that the expanded runtime allows them to have like a little bit of a better balance where you're not flashing back for four different contestants in a 42 minute episode. Yeah. And that's definitely something that's a big problem, especially in the pre-merge of Survivor 41,

[00:47:34] when there's a lot of sort of swallowed up edits like, you know, we get one for Boche, we get one for Jeannie, we get one for JD, we get one for Brad. You know, it's a lot of people who maybe the emotional insight

[00:47:47] isn't something that necessarily feels important to us as an audience. But I think it's important that Survivor tries to push it. And the last thing I'll say about the editing, and this is sort of the big thing to a lot of people,

[00:48:01] is the question of why Erika had such a small edit compared to Xander. I feel like that is a big question. And I think we kind of have the answer now that we've talked about it. And I think it's just a focus on the advantages

[00:48:16] and the focus on everything that's new, because if you look at Xander compared to Erika, Xander had an extra vote. Xander had an idol. Xander had at some point he had the the well, he was directly involved in the in the Liana.

[00:48:33] I already forget the name of it. So many knowledge is power. Knowledge is power. Yes, very much. He was he's at the forefront of all of this. He's the one that says, I truly believe butterflies are dead relative saying hi.

[00:48:45] And I I think that he's almost the spokesperson for the new twists and the new advantages. And so he has all the insight into all these new twists and what they do and what he wants to do.

[00:48:56] And the edit focuses so much on that they miss they miss the winner. They don't have enough time in the in the show to show what Erika is doing and what Heather's doing and how they're they're a tight duo that gets to the final four.

[00:49:09] Do you feel like going back and watching this? Do you feel like that there actually there are things about Erika's edits sort of like when we go back and watch Survivor 43? There were clues that Gabler was like a hiding in plain sight.

[00:49:23] Did you feel like is that there for Erika? Um, no, not really. It's kind of there. But it Erika as a contestant, as a strategic force, we don't get strategic insight until after the hourglass twist. There's nothing. She's almost not even there in the premerge.

[00:49:42] And afterwards, she's there for the hourglass. But then she kind of goes under again and doesn't really pop out until I don't know, I'd say maybe final eight, I would say after the knowledge is power. Then she kind of jumps up.

[00:49:56] But even still, she's still vastly overshadowed in confessionals by Dishon and Xander and and Evie and all of these other and definitely Ricard and Shan. And, you know, she's not a premier. She doesn't seem like a premier strategic threat.

[00:50:13] And then at the end and the finale, they really give her flowers and say, well, she's played a very smart game. But of course, we we as the audience, we don't see that. We don't see it. Yeah. We haven't talked about come on in, guys. Yeah, that's true.

[00:50:31] I mean, it's it's one of those things where what is there really to say? Well, you know what I thought was interesting? Because I was watching that opening match at. OK, so Jeff introduces everything and brings everybody's excited to be there.

[00:50:44] And and Jeff says, all right, first order of business. All right. How do I say how do I bring tell people to come to the challenge? They're like, come on in, guys. Well, OK, I've been thinking about it. People say I'm receptive.

[00:50:58] Should I say should I keep saying come on in, guys? And there's looking for and it's actually Evie says, OK, you know what? Actually, and it's been it's been well discussed like should should you have these discussions in a group on camera?

[00:51:13] But Evie ends up saying, you know what? Personally, I don't feel like come on in, guys. Is it doesn't bother me, you know? And and Jeff's like, all right, you heard you heard Evie. It's settled. Come on in, guys.

[00:51:29] It is. And then they end up that later on. Ricard is like, well, actually, like I don't love come on in, guys, like like that to me is just weird. It's yeah, it's it's odd. I so I haven't really thought about this, honestly, but I'll give you my

[00:51:51] and my completely transparent thoughts. Like, do you think that this is like Ricard was like a scapegoat, you think? Because why would you put the everything in the in the episode and be like, well, this it's official where we're not changing it

[00:52:05] and then also show Ricard saying, well, I don't know about this. And you could have just done it. You could have just cut both of the things out. And then Jeff could have just been like, come on in.

[00:52:16] But maybe that they were like in their heads too much about like, well, no, isn't it come on in, guys? So I don't know. It was just like but I think it speaks to some of the things that are just still a little bit off from Survivor 41.

[00:52:33] But Joey, I'm feeling like going back and looking at this, like I feel like the things that stand out are the things that didn't work. But do you feel like that Survivor 41 actually did do a good job of like laying the groundwork for what these next seasons are?

[00:52:52] And are we just remembering more of the negative things about what were the issues? I think, yes, as as viewers, it's very easy to remember the negative more so. But I think I think and this is sort of my big thesis statement of Survivor 41.

[00:53:10] I think Survivor 41 is a season that shows the pros and cons of excessive experimentation with a 20 year old format. Survivors constantly changing. It changes every season, even in the new era when it doesn't feel like it is. It's changing.

[00:53:25] And I think 41 was so much change that a lot of people sort of recoiled at it. And myself included. But when you look back at it, I mean, there's there's a lot of heart in the season. There really is.

[00:53:38] We didn't even really get to the to the Black Alliance and the importance of that. But I mean, there's there's so many aspects to it. And, you know, even the contestants themselves, like we wouldn't have seen someone like Nasir casted in previous seasons. I don't believe.

[00:53:54] And if we were, it would have been almost exploitation of, you know, himself and his personality. We wouldn't even see someone like Ebi, certainly. I really think that there's there's a lot of heart there. Even Dashaun, I'm not sure if we would have seen seen him casted.

[00:54:11] But I think the experimentation, it was honestly, I do think it's a good thing for Survivor, because since then, sure, it was a rocky start, but we've gotten 45, which I think is an amazing season. And we've gotten 46, which I think is also a great season.

[00:54:26] So so, yeah. Yeah. I guess we should have a little bit more grace with Survivor as it continues to improve on itself and not like rest on its laurels. I feel like, you know, it is easier for and, you know,

[00:54:42] I certainly have dealt with this in trying to like how do we continue to evolve? RHAP over its 14 year history. And with RHAP, we can try something one day if it doesn't work. OK, we got the instant feedback because this is a podcast and people didn't like that.

[00:55:02] People are liking this new change. Let's continue down this path. But I think with Survivor, you know, especially with the way that they shoot these seasons back to back, they're very much in a vacuum and and literally in a bubble for how they made these two seasons.

[00:55:18] And so it is, I think, very hard for them to be able to incorporate these big changes into a show. And, you know, I guess kudos to them for wanting to continue to develop new changes and respond to their alumni about things that they want to do.

[00:55:37] I do wish that they would be like a little less intractable on some of the things that there is a lot of feedback about, like, hey, three tribes. You don't have to keep doing that. Like, are we open to more days?

[00:55:52] And, you know, sometimes I think that Jeff can be like a little dug in of like, no, this is how it is. This is how it is. This is how it is. And, you know, I guess just like with like

[00:56:04] just in terms of like current events, like with Joe Biden, he's, you know, he's not dropping out. He's not dropping out. He's not dropping out until one day he is. And so, you know, I think that they have to sort of like maintain

[00:56:15] like the company line of like, oh, no, we love all these changes. This is the format. This is what we're doing until one day we wake up and Jeff says, well, actually, yeah, we are going to change this.

[00:56:26] I do think it's somewhat worth mentioning that I don't like the idea that Jeff hasn't done this before. It hasn't stuck to an idea probably longer than it was worth doing. I think of Exile Island. Exile Island was around for such a long time.

[00:56:40] And in my opinion, it kind of grew stale by by token genes and Gabon, even though those are two great seasons. I think the inclusion of Exile Island and Redemption Island stuck to Redemption Island, in many people's opinion, way too long. I'm a fan of Redemption Island.

[00:56:54] But I mean, a lot of people, you know, would say that. And, you know, all these different things. I think that this is just just the the cons of shooting seasons back to back and also not necessarily getting a good sense

[00:57:10] of how good an advantage or twist is within the first two seasons. Like, for instance, I would say Redemption Island, its first time in Redemption Island wasn't necessarily a successful twist, but I would say it was successful in blood versus water.

[00:57:24] In my personal opinion, I would say Exile Island wasn't necessarily successful in Exile Island or even or even in Palau. But I think it was definitely successful in, I don't know. Name a season, I think Micronesia, definitely great at Micronesia.

[00:57:44] So I think that's that's the con to it all. Now we're about to be on Survivor 47, and I don't really have any excuses for not really changing anything up now. But I understand it from a showrunner's perspective that it's difficult. It's not easy to do. Yeah.

[00:58:01] All right. Well, Joey, I really appreciate all of the research you went back and did around this subject. And, you know, Survivor continues to change and evolve. And I think that for us who are covering it in the real time,

[00:58:15] I think it can be a little difficult to be able to, you know, track where we are. And so this was a good point to like look back at like just, you know, how far we've come just in these last three years

[00:58:29] from where they launched all these new changes to, you know, how the changes have been, you know, walked back in some ways and then continue to progress. Yeah, and I really think Survivor 41 occupies a super unique place among all seasons, not just New Era.

[00:58:47] And I think that eventually it should be looked back upon as a weird moment for Survivor, certainly, but generally an important one and a very odd season just in general. Yeah, I think that maybe it turns out to be maybe like a, you know,

[00:59:04] picture from like high school of like, OK, well, this was this is still this is still Survivor, but it was going through maybe an awkward phase. Yeah, I mean, it was in the middle of COVID. It's if nothing else, look at Jeff's hair.

[00:59:18] OK, look, it's still the same guy. He just tried something new. It's a good portrait of, in my opinion, America and I guess the world right after COVID and twenty twenty one after COVID and sort of the response to it.

[00:59:32] I do think it's a very good snapshot for that, if nothing else. Even if you hate the season, I think it's good for that. OK, Joey, where can people keep up with you? Oh, oh goodness. I am technically on social media. I'm technically on Twitter.

[00:59:46] Yeah, look at Joey Overding, but I'm not active there. OK, the best way to contact me is I'm in the discord for the patrons. And I play blood on the clock tower with a bunch of them.

[00:59:56] If you're interested in playing blood on the clock tower, join the patrons. We're great. We're very welcoming to all new people. With one that what do you say with Dwight? Right. Yes, I've I've been on Dwight's stream as well.

[01:00:09] So if you want to watch me play blood on the clock tower with those same patrons, you can you can find that on Twitch. And yeah, I mean, you can you can find me wherever. I'm not hard to find.

[01:00:20] If you just look up my name, you'll find me. OK, so all right. Well, Joey, I really appreciate all this research that you did and making some time to chat about a I think a fascinating topic. So I yeah, I really, really appreciate you having me on, Rob.

[01:00:35] I'm so glad that I had the opportunity to talk about Survivor 41 or really just talk in general. I love having a soapbox. But I really appreciate the fact that you you saw me a patron and you you saw the opportunity for me to talk about something

[01:00:50] for an extended period of time and you took it. I appreciate that. Look, I'm always looking to find people who can come in and bring it, Joey. So thank you so much. And looking forward to more chatting on the patron calls.

[01:01:04] So thank you all so much for joining us here for this one. Be sure to check out the wish list every day when Mike Blum is talking about who should come back. And I will be joining Mike for the Survivor 40 winners award discussion as well as then.

[01:01:20] Mike, we'll talk about Survivor 41 later on this week in our Survivor podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Take care of everybody. Have a good one. Bye.