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[01:37.000 --> 01:42.000] Ghost pepper, roaster garlic parmesan, sweet and spicy, signature hot and honey barbecue.
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[01:53.000 --> 01:58.000] That's the most romantic thing you've said to me all month. We don't make sense. We make chicken.
[01:58.000 --> 02:01.000] Yeah, that chicken from Popeyes. Price may vary.
[02:16.000 --> 02:22.000] Hello everyone. Welcome back to You Thought You Knew, the podcast where we talk about survivor players that may be
[02:22.000 --> 02:28.000] underrated, underappreciated, or just misunderstood. Each episode we'll try to answer a question
[02:28.000 --> 02:34.000] that's designed to make us challenge our preconceived notions about a famous survivor contestant.
[02:34.000 --> 02:39.000] Of course, there are no right answers. It's just an excuse to talk about our favorite show.
[02:39.000 --> 02:44.000] I'm your co-host Nigel Boke-Negra and I'm joined by my partner in crime, Kevin McLean.
[02:44.000 --> 02:50.000] Yes, excited to do this and we're kind of coming to the end of You Thought You Knew actually.
[02:50.000 --> 02:54.000] So, I'm really glad to talk about this contestant who I feel like not enough people talk about
[02:54.000 --> 02:56.000] and I'm really excited to have our guest today too.
[02:56.000 --> 02:59.000] Yeah, this survivor that we're going to be chatting about.
[02:59.000 --> 03:05.000] I think we talked about first with our very first season who's kind of been floating around as someone
[03:05.000 --> 03:08.000] that we've wanted to talk about. So, I'm glad that we finally have a chance here.
[03:08.000 --> 03:14.000] Yeah. And we are very lucky to be joined today by the one and only, Jessica Lease.
[03:14.000 --> 03:16.000] Jessica, how are you?
[03:16.000 --> 03:20.000] I'm doing great. I'm really excited to be on this show.
[03:20.000 --> 03:26.000] I am an avid listener and a big fan of all things old school survivors.
[03:26.000 --> 03:30.000] So, I jumped at the chance to get to actually talk to you guys about this.
[03:30.000 --> 03:34.000] That's so sweet of you. We're glad that you're you're able to join us in.
[03:34.000 --> 03:38.000] How excited are you to talk about John Carroll of Survivor Marques' fame?
[03:38.000 --> 03:44.000] Well, the thing I love is that the two of you specifically asked me to do this because
[03:44.000 --> 03:49.000] I, you know how it is when there's like a thing out there in the world that you love
[03:49.000 --> 03:53.000] and you come to be known as the person that loves that thing.
[03:53.000 --> 03:59.000] Like for all of my friends, any time they see anything with Rick Astley out in the world,
[03:59.000 --> 04:05.000] they immediately think of me. Like my Facebook wall is just like people posting links to Rick Astley stuff.
[04:05.000 --> 04:09.000] And I feel like in the survivor world Marques' is like my Rick Astley.
[04:10.000 --> 04:14.000] I'm happy to be known as the person that that loves Marques'.
[04:16.000 --> 04:18.000] Yeah, I mean, yeah.
[04:18.000 --> 04:23.000] I think that's great. And you know, I think for probably most RHAP listeners in their wider world,
[04:23.000 --> 04:28.000] they're the person that people go to when they hear a little tidbit about survivor here and there.
[04:28.000 --> 04:31.000] You got to go deeper into the niche.
[04:31.000 --> 04:37.000] Exactly. Like when you're in the podcast fam, you got to have your little sub genres.
[04:37.000 --> 04:42.000] And I think Marques' is like one of them. I feel like it is, I don't know,
[04:42.000 --> 04:45.000] if this is like a library and you have so many different genres,
[04:45.000 --> 04:50.000] I feel like some seasons are like epics, you know, some are tragedies like South Pacific.
[04:50.000 --> 04:53.000] I think it's like a tragic story kind of told to us.
[04:53.000 --> 04:57.000] And I think Marques' is like, I don't know, like a true classic, if you will.
[04:57.000 --> 05:01.000] I think it's like a required reading, if you will, if this is like a college class.
[05:01.000 --> 05:03.000] Marques' is one of the most important seasons.
[05:03.000 --> 05:06.000] And I think unfortunately it's kind of been forgotten over time.
[05:06.000 --> 05:11.000] It's DVD to not come out as early as some of the other ones too, which I think hurts its legacy.
[05:11.000 --> 05:15.000] But it births like the most recognizable contestant at this point.
[05:15.000 --> 05:18.000] And it's had a very soft spot for me too.
[05:18.000 --> 05:25.000] Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting that Marques' feels so instrumental in the early development of the show.
[05:25.000 --> 05:33.000] But it's not exactly listed as required viewing as people are going through to kind of like catch up on a lot of seasons.
[05:33.000 --> 05:38.000] But I think that it does have high approvals for people who have taken the time to go watch the season.
[05:38.000 --> 05:40.000] Yeah, I think so.
[05:40.000 --> 05:45.000] It is very highly regarded among the like day one survivor fans.
[05:45.000 --> 05:48.000] And I think some of that is nostalgia.
[05:48.000 --> 05:54.000] Like when we did back in 2020 and 2021, when everybody was in lockdown, there was no new survivor.
[05:54.000 --> 05:56.000] We were counting down all seasons.
[05:57.000 --> 06:01.000] I was shocked that it only hit 22 out of 40.
[06:01.000 --> 06:20.000] And I think that's just testament to like how many new fans we've picked up along the way because I would say, like for everybody in my into like Gen X day one survivor crowd.
[06:20.000 --> 06:23.000] Marques, this is top 10.
[06:23.000 --> 06:25.000] Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
[06:26.000 --> 06:31.000] It is something that I think people have just kind of again forgotten about over time.
[06:31.000 --> 06:35.000] But it is something that if you have a lot of like reverence, it was so big.
[06:35.000 --> 06:36.000] And I think it is a show.
[06:36.000 --> 06:40.000] It's probably the season that you most need to watch with a historical context other than maybe Borneo.
[06:40.000 --> 06:43.000] Yeah, I think that that makes sense.
[06:43.000 --> 06:54.000] And you know, it's also kind of interesting because I think there are the way that the season aged in particular, I think is really interesting because I think there's, you know, like some comments from Boston.
[06:54.000 --> 06:59.000] Rob along the way that don't shine nearly as well in 2024.
[06:59.000 --> 07:08.000] But I think if you hear a lot of the things that Sean rector says along the way, it's actually very ahead of his time.
[07:08.000 --> 07:14.000] And so parts of the show, I think actually age extremely well over time.
[07:14.000 --> 07:23.000] So I think that it's just a very interesting season to go back to not only for the strategy aspect and how it contributes to how the show can develop over time.
[07:23.000 --> 07:29.000] But also just as a time capsule of 2002 is when it filmed.
[07:29.000 --> 07:30.000] Correct.
[07:30.000 --> 07:31.000] Something like that.
[07:31.000 --> 07:35.000] I think it filmed in like late fall of 2001.
[07:35.000 --> 07:38.000] And then in 2002.
[07:38.000 --> 07:47.000] I think actually, and this was something I had to actually go back and listen to myself for four solid hours is a podcasters nightmare.
[07:48.000 --> 07:58.000] I went back and listened to the four hour retrospective we did on our cases and I believe Rob knew that they started filming on Halloween of 2001.
[07:58.000 --> 07:59.000] Wow.
[07:59.000 --> 08:08.000] I mean, that's like, so that's, you know, a little after 9 11, which obviously was a huge cultural and political impact in the US.
[08:08.000 --> 08:14.000] So like the idea that, I mean, this is like a month after like flying resumed, you know, like it's a really, really big deal.
[08:14.000 --> 08:22.000] And I think also the forgotten story about how this was supposed to be survivor Jordan, you know, it's just, it's so interesting to me.
[08:22.000 --> 08:23.000] Definitely.
[08:23.000 --> 08:25.000] Well, go ahead, Jessica.
[08:25.000 --> 08:26.000] Sorry.
[08:26.000 --> 08:27.000] Sorry.
[08:27.000 --> 08:32.000] It is interesting to me that they weren't even intending to go back to a beach.
[08:32.000 --> 08:43.000] And then this sort of came together very quickly. And then that was how they were marketing it was, you know, we're now back in the beach and they never really left the beach after that.
[08:44.000 --> 08:56.000] Yeah, and I love a good landlocked season. I love Gabon. I think token chains is really beautiful. But I mean, now that they're in Fiji, it's very similar to Marquesas is like, I guess, a vegetation and topography, if you will.
[08:56.000 --> 09:06.000] But, yeah, it's interesting. It's like what a desert season would have been and what that would have like looked at how that would have also changed the game because maybe the challenges are different, right?
[09:06.000 --> 09:13.000] And the coconut shop doesn't happen because maybe there's like other like desert related activities that could have happened instead.
[09:13.000 --> 09:16.000] I mean, I guess those coconuts in Jordan. So who knows?
[09:16.000 --> 09:30.000] But you know, those early seasons, what I really enjoy in particular about African Australia is that the location is almost the 17th contestant that's there. It's just such a part of the show.
[09:30.000 --> 09:46.000] You have to quickly scramble from survivor Jordan to the Marquesas. You're not able to develop the cultural ties to the location that they're in in challenges, I think, in the same way that you're able to do in Australia and Africa.
[09:46.000 --> 09:50.000] So I'm sure that that plays a piece in it too.
[09:50.000 --> 09:56.000] Well, all of this being said, Kevin, do you want to do your introduction of the one and only John Carroll?
[09:56.000 --> 09:58.000] Yes. Okay.
[09:58.000 --> 10:11.000] By the Marquesas merge, John Carroll seemed to be the second coming of Richard Hatch, a masculine gay man with enough charisma and strategic insight to build a four person alliance ready to pogong and pick off everyone else.
[10:11.000 --> 10:13.000] But he failed.
[10:13.000 --> 10:18.000] However, in many ways, his failure gave John a unique characterization all his own.
[10:18.000 --> 10:28.000] The overthrow of the road to four is celebrated as an important strategic milestone in the show's evolution, and the coconut chop persisted as a challenge staple for several following years.
[10:28.000 --> 10:38.000] And as John became the first kingpin to lose his majority and be overthrown, the concept of the power shift was fully cemented in the eyes of viewers and future players alike.
[10:38.000 --> 10:41.000] You thought you knew John Carroll? Well, we think we do.
[10:41.000 --> 10:49.000] And on this episode of You Thought You Knew, we will be answering the question, did survivor need John Carroll to fail?
[10:49.000 --> 10:57.000] So, obviously, the power shift that happens in Marquesas is really central to John's story overall.
[10:57.000 --> 11:07.000] Jess, how important do you think power shifts are to survivors' popularity, maybe, you know, back then as well as, you know, throughout the years till today?
[11:08.000 --> 11:21.000] This was the kind of thing, and I think to really answer this question, we have to go back and look at what had happened on survivor up to this point, because you never saw this happen on survivor.
[11:21.000 --> 11:30.000] This was the first time, and now it's like every other episode in latter day survivor involves somebody flipping the script on somebody else.
[11:31.000 --> 11:47.000] And at this point, people that had figured out what the game was, people that had watched the first three seasons with an eye to that and had kind of seen like how the coalitions formed and dominated the game, they were waiting for somebody to do this.
[11:48.000 --> 12:04.000] And then we get to this point, and it's looking like there are maybe four people that are doing any kind of gameplay at all out of the cast that remains at this point in the game.
[12:04.000 --> 12:11.000] And you don't think they're really going to be able to pull it together, because nobody is thinking of this.
[12:11.000 --> 12:17.000] Like, there are people still left in the game at this point that are actively saying, I don't care about the game.
[12:17.000 --> 12:25.000] And that is completely wild to someone who is watching this through the lens of 44 seasons of survivor.
[12:25.000 --> 12:33.000] You come back to this and you watch it now, and it seems very rudimentary, but it was kind of, it was emergent gameplay at the time.
[12:34.000 --> 12:35.000] It was revolutionary.
[12:35.000 --> 12:51.000] And I think we are talking about a very different TV program and likely one that doesn't last another 20 years if you just have another case of a core alliance going all the way to the end.
[12:51.000 --> 12:52.000] Yeah, exactly.
[12:52.000 --> 13:00.000] And like Thailand follows, but I don't know if they were able to really watch Marquesas or not, but that feels almost like a regression and then Amazon speeds it back up.
[13:00.000 --> 13:03.000] So it's like such an important, again, milestone, as you've said.
[13:03.000 --> 13:08.000] And I think, again, some people that may rank Marquesas lower don't think about it in those ways.
[13:08.000 --> 13:13.000] Like the idea that the outsider should unite together is not, I mean, it's never happened.
[13:13.000 --> 13:20.000] And it's until this day, I'm still mad Kelly Goldsmith didn't get in her way, you know, like in Africa and like the botched power shift.
[13:20.000 --> 13:22.000] But I think power shifts are so important.
[13:22.000 --> 13:24.000] It certainly informs my perspective about survivor.
[13:25.000 --> 13:28.000] And now, as just you said, that it's so quick.
[13:28.000 --> 13:29.000] People are constantly cutting each other.
[13:29.000 --> 13:31.000] It doesn't feel like a power shift.
[13:31.000 --> 13:32.000] Exactly.
[13:32.000 --> 13:40.000] Because with the road to four, you feel the slow burn, this build up and then a whole shift in the social dynamics, the political dynamics, all of that occurring.
[13:40.000 --> 13:45.000] And I think this actually happens pretty in really exciting ways all the way.
[13:45.000 --> 13:47.000] So maybe a little around here's versus a villain's time.
[13:47.000 --> 13:53.000] And I think at that point, the idol becomes the star where power shifts are no longer nearly as critical because you don't need.
[13:53.000 --> 14:01.000] A full cemented majority of usually people who don't even like each other, which I think is my favorite part of a power shift, is the new world order that comes after that.
[14:01.000 --> 14:05.000] You don't really get to see that because people are able to pivot in different ways.
[14:05.000 --> 14:06.000] But I love it.
[14:06.000 --> 14:09.000] And the Marquesas power shift is certainly one of my favorites of all time.
[14:09.000 --> 14:11.000] What do you think about power shifts?
[14:11.000 --> 14:14.000] So my first season ever was Coggyon.
[14:14.000 --> 14:18.000] And that is not a power shift in a new majority forming.
[14:18.000 --> 14:27.000] But you know, by the time you get to the merge, it's like every other episode, someone is swinging away at Tony is swinging with wood, essentially, right?
[14:27.000 --> 14:37.000] But it's just constantly happening that I think it really not warped, but it really informed my understanding of what survivor was.
[14:37.000 --> 14:44.000] And I think that for the first several years that I was a fan, I think I was really focused on the strategy specifically.
[14:45.000 --> 14:54.000] And I think over time, as I've seen more and more seasons, I've grown to have much greater appreciation for the characters that exists on the show.
[14:54.000 --> 15:06.000] But I think that with the new school fans, it's almost like it would be very difficult to slow things down a little bit because it's almost like we have a sugar addiction where we're used to the rush at this point.
[15:06.000 --> 15:13.000] And I think if you were to like take it away and make things old school again, I think you would hear a lot of complaints from the audience.
[15:13.000 --> 15:30.000] But I think something a little slower would probably be better because I think the way that things ping so rapidly today almost never allows you to really kind of like breathe and see the implications of one of these shifts really play out before they're already setting up the next one.
[15:30.000 --> 15:38.000] Yeah, and I actually think we were starting to see a bit more of like that tribalism come back. I feel like in 45 and 44, we have the Tika 3.
[15:38.000 --> 15:44.000] We have the the rebus which stay fairly intact, you know, for modern standards, like pretty far into the game.
[15:44.000 --> 15:50.000] And their dissolution of the rebus was actually very compelling, I think, because we've been building it up.
[15:50.000 --> 15:54.000] And we really understand the identities and like I think the group dynamics that really happen.
[15:55.000 --> 16:06.000] Around the 30s and stuff, we kind of lose the spirit of the tribe of the social dynamic existing as a unit to like being a narrative, because people are playing such more individualistic games.
[16:06.000 --> 16:11.000] And what I think the Marquesas one is really fun is that it parallels so many things about our real life.
[16:11.000 --> 16:18.000] The idea of people who don't like each other from such different backgrounds coming together for a common good is so beautiful.
[16:19.000 --> 16:27.000] And it's something like we like think about like in like democracies and like the haves and the have nots and like there's a whole like racial element to Marquesas.
[16:27.000 --> 16:34.000] It's I think anytime a power shift seems to tap into like how we feel like into like our society, because survivors of microcosm of it, it feels more impactful.
[16:34.000 --> 16:47.000] It reminds me of the the Amazon power shift, right, where it's like the cool kids are flipped on and that's really compelling for so many people because it's shifts that we want to see in our normal life because in normal life we don't always get the power shifts.
[16:48.000 --> 16:59.000] That we want in Marquesas able to show us that while it's able to happen, even in like the most daunting situations, people can actually set aside their differences work together and like totally advance themselves.
[17:00.000 --> 17:14.000] Now Jess, do you remember if you were rooting for the power shift to happen at the time because you know we get the the dangling of the possibility with Boston Rob, but it doesn't play out and then it follows the era then it comes the following episode.
[17:14.000 --> 17:16.000] So was it something you were rooting for?
[17:17.000 --> 17:26.000] I mean, I'd been rooting for this to happen probably since midway through Borneo and wanted this to happen.
[17:26.000 --> 17:39.000] And I didn't really at the time I was not a huge fan of how I thought it was going to happen because I was not a Boston Rob fan that first season.
[17:40.000 --> 17:42.000] He's just a little bit too much of a douche.
[17:43.000 --> 17:51.000] And you know, he mellows like I could get I can really dig into rooting for a heroes versus villains Boston Rob.
[17:52.000 --> 17:55.000] And I even I didn't mind him as much.
[17:56.000 --> 17:59.000] I mean, you wanted him to lose in all stars, but I didn't mind him as much.
[18:00.000 --> 18:08.000] But this first season I was like I just want this guy off my screen and it's almost like I know it's going to be a less interesting thing.
[18:09.000 --> 18:12.000] It's a very interesting game if they take that piece off the board.
[18:13.000 --> 18:19.000] And that was kind of why it was so exciting when that power shift did happen because it's like, oh, he's not even there anymore.
[18:20.000 --> 18:26.000] But he planted the seed and it's actually going to happen with the people that I actually like.
[18:27.000 --> 18:30.000] Yeah, that's actually the best case scenario for a fan in your position, right?
[18:31.000 --> 18:36.000] All the Boston Rob themes without any of the Boston Rob actual screen time in a way.
[18:36.000 --> 18:40.000] You eat him off the show and put the BR rules in somebody else's hand.
[18:41.000 --> 18:43.000] It was best of all worlds.
[18:44.000 --> 18:49.000] Yeah, and I really it's like I said, it's such a cool moment in the show.
[18:50.000 --> 18:54.000] And and Nigel, do you have any other thoughts about power shifts?
[18:55.000 --> 19:03.000] I think that power shifts are very important to give like a level of intrigue that exists when you watch the show.
[19:03.000 --> 19:06.000] Because you want to know like, will it actually happen here?
[19:07.000 --> 19:14.000] But I think what I really appreciated about Marquesas's power shift is things were simpler because it's season four.
[19:15.000 --> 19:18.000] But you can really see how they lay out the story.
[19:19.000 --> 19:24.000] Having seen Marquesas, if you're going through the first time, you don't necessarily know where things are going.
[19:25.000 --> 19:30.000] But I think knowing where things are going, you can see that the editors did it like a really great job of setting this up.
[19:31.000 --> 19:39.000] And you really get to focus on those five players that came together and really delve into their dynamics and relationships with each other.
[19:40.000 --> 19:47.000] And it just really encapsulates the 16 strangers show up on an island from all different walks of life.
[19:48.000 --> 19:59.000] The scene with Pascal and Sean having won a reward together and just sitting there talking about the fact that they would have never normally ended up in this kind of position in regular life.
[20:00.000 --> 20:04.000] It just I think really brings from this specialness of survivor.
[20:05.000 --> 20:15.000] I think that Marquesas is really like a love letter to the show for people who have really been able to like dive in and see a lot of the chapters that exist.
[20:16.000 --> 20:18.000] Yeah, it's very social experiment too.
[20:18.000 --> 20:29.000] And yeah, it's for me, it's every time I think because Marquesas was so formative to me in strategy because it's a big evolutionary step is that years later as people would never question their position.
[20:30.000 --> 20:34.000] And in alliance, which does happen like, you know, in especially the teens and stuff.
[20:34.000 --> 20:39.000] There are occasionally there's someone who's like towards the bottom. I'm like, did you not see what Nalia did for you?
[20:39.000 --> 20:44.000] Did you not see what Pascal and Vesepia and Kathy and Sean did for this franchise?
[20:44.000 --> 20:47.000] And it's like, of course they did it. They watched Cook Islands and they showed up on the beach.
[20:47.000 --> 20:50.000] And it's very different.
[20:50.000 --> 20:59.000] But like for me, it just it's the way I analyze survivor is always thinking about the hierarchy, which is I don't know if that's how a lot of people view it now because it's all about like how you I think utilize advantage.
[20:59.000 --> 21:03.000] And like manage one to one relationships more often now.
[21:03.000 --> 21:08.000] But like for me, it's all about the structure, the packing order.
[21:08.000 --> 21:14.000] All those things are really important things to like my vocabulary that I trace back to some of Marquesas.
[21:14.000 --> 21:26.000] For sure, it's like they, it's like those diagrams that people put out at the, you know, in the middle of a big brother season where they just like have all these little pictures of like, here's the little heads and these people are in this line.
[21:26.000 --> 21:31.000] And these people are in this alliance and these people talk to each other, but they're not in an alliance.
[21:31.000 --> 21:44.000] And I feel like these early survivor seasons is like the proto version of that where it's like, you know, who's aligned with who at all times and where they stand and who might flip and who is locked in.
[21:44.000 --> 21:47.000] And who is the best person to take out next.
[21:47.000 --> 21:55.000] Yeah, there's something about the openness of it all like people will criticize the road to for being so open, but like, you know, there wasn't really a precedent for this.
[21:55.000 --> 22:03.000] And like how compelling that is because it also creates more conflict, you know, because now everyone plays a little too smart, if you will, I think.
[22:03.000 --> 22:06.000] I think actually there was something beautiful about that era of the show where people are two and four.
[22:06.000 --> 22:09.000] You have to worry about an idol. You don't have to worry about those things.
[22:09.000 --> 22:13.000] So like you, and, but it also meant that anyone could also see the picture more easily.
[22:13.000 --> 22:15.000] We're now, you know, I remember watching Big Brother 22.
[22:15.000 --> 22:17.000] It's like everyone has the wrong read.
[22:17.000 --> 22:20.000] Everyone thinks this person values them more than the other person does.
[22:20.000 --> 22:29.000] And everyone keeps getting rid of the person that gives them more information because it's so hard to see the larger picture and like the dynamics and subgroups that exist.
[22:29.000 --> 22:39.000] Well, Kev, we we've been talking so much about the season, but I think we need to get into John Carroll himself a little bit for those who might be listening that have not seen.
[22:40.000 --> 22:42.000] Do you want to give the quick baseball facts?
[22:42.000 --> 22:43.000] Yes.
[22:43.000 --> 22:44.000] Back in the baseball.
[22:44.000 --> 22:50.000] So John Carroll plays on Survivor in Marquesas, his only time, sadly, in my opinion, his only time on the show.
[22:50.000 --> 22:57.000] 36 year old registered nurse from Omaha, Nebraska, and he was a critical player to that blue road to love tribe.
[22:57.000 --> 23:00.000] And they won every single challenge through the pre swap.
[23:00.000 --> 23:04.000] So they were going to be like the new career, like the OG career, if you will.
[23:05.000 --> 23:12.000] And after the swap, he cements this like four person alliance known as the road to four with Tammy Zoe and the general.
[23:12.000 --> 23:19.000] And after they vote Boston, Rob out off of the merge, John's and his alliance are like very final for bound.
[23:19.000 --> 23:23.000] It kind of like is reminiscent of Borneo like they can totally just fall this out.
[23:23.000 --> 23:33.000] But during the coconut chop challenge, the pecking order is revealed and a flip occurs and John is boosted and he meets.
[23:33.000 --> 23:37.000] All three of his allies, one by one on the jury bench.
[23:37.000 --> 23:48.000] And, you know, is one of the votes that gives the sepia, the win over road to trader Nalia, which I think is important in like understanding him as a character.
[23:48.000 --> 24:01.000] But I think outside of John's strategic contributions, he's also really notable for, you know, the fact that he has an Irish temper, kind of getting into fights, getting peed on by Kathy Vavric O'Brien.
[24:01.000 --> 24:06.000] And it's a really big one. If you watch the several more cases for Union, it's all they want to talk about, I feel like.
[24:06.000 --> 24:10.000] And Rosie O'Donnell wants to talk. Yes, exactly.
[24:10.000 --> 24:21.000] And then the fact that he had incredible abs in his final words. I think those are like the big, like John Carroll things outside of just being an alpha strategist.
[24:21.000 --> 24:24.000] Jess, do you have any favorite moments from John Carroll?
[24:24.000 --> 24:29.000] Mine is definitely him talking about his great abs in his exit.
[24:30.000 --> 24:31.000] For sure.
[24:31.000 --> 24:52.000] Well, I actually, I want to give you a little meta moment, John Carroll, because I think famously, the very first survivor super fan to come into the game with these fully formed strategies, knowing literally everything that happened to everybody at every point in the game up to that point.
[24:52.000 --> 24:57.000] Who is the person you usually think of when you think of like the first super fan to enter the game and play the game?
[24:58.000 --> 25:00.000] Yeah, it's dad, right?
[25:00.000 --> 25:13.000] But I will posit that John Carroll is actually kind of a proto Cestronino in this regard, because he comes into this game obsessed with this game.
[25:13.000 --> 25:21.000] He was actually a poster on the survivor sucks forums before getting cast on the show.
[25:22.000 --> 25:39.000] And this was actually, I had the opportunity to meet John Carroll one time when I crashed the All Stars finale and got somehow placed in the audience next to the block where all of the old survivors were sitting that weren't in All Stars.
[25:39.000 --> 25:46.000] So I had to talk to everybody and I kind of gave him a hard time about having been on survivor sucks.
[25:47.000 --> 25:52.000] This, it was like he has, and he has never stopped being a fan.
[25:52.000 --> 26:09.000] I think outside of the show, outside of what we saw on the screen, I think my favorite thing about him is the fact that he has this deep love for survivor and has really, it has been true before he was on the show and is remains true after he's on the show.
[26:10.000 --> 26:20.000] And he comes into this game really understanding how successful people have operated in the game up to this point.
[26:20.000 --> 26:27.000] And you see that in all the strategizing that he does and how he relates to his tribe mates.
[26:27.000 --> 26:32.000] And I think that's, that's not really a moment per se.
[26:32.000 --> 26:55.000] So if I have to choose a moment, I was thinking about this a lot like you have to go with the top, the top three John Carroll survivor moments are probably crying when he got a voting out, getting peed on, and probably talking about his apps.
[26:56.000 --> 27:06.000] He's a character, he's not just, he's not just a gamer, he's not a game body by any stretch, he's a character and he's entertaining.
[27:06.000 --> 27:15.000] I really, I was watching back like I didn't do, I didn't do the three season deep dive that Mari did on Amanda Kimmel, which was very impressive.
[27:15.000 --> 27:21.000] But I did go back and rewatch most of Marquesas over the last couple of days.
[27:21.000 --> 27:26.000] And it, him cooking at camp was really fun.
[27:26.000 --> 27:38.000] Because we had a point on survivor, we had an actual chef on the show and he was just a terrible cook, but it comes in and he's like, he invents coconut popcorn.
[27:39.000 --> 27:51.000] And then he makes stew out of like fish stock and they call him Johnny pots and pans, which is hilarious. And you never get those camp life things anymore.
[27:51.000 --> 28:05.000] And I know it makes me like the oldest survivor of all time to say that I enjoyed some of these surviving segments and the insight into how people structured their day to day existence.
[28:05.000 --> 28:09.000] But you know, give me a couple of those a season. I'm totally happy.
[28:09.000 --> 28:19.000] Yeah, I think it's actually a very interesting answer because I think part of John's appeal is the fact that like he is like so well equipped out there like strategically, physically.
[28:19.000 --> 28:25.000] I mean, he's in great shape. He seems to understand camp life and he's doing this all also as a gay man, right?
[28:25.000 --> 28:32.000] And I think part of Richard's appeal in season one was that he kind of defied certain stereotypes. I think John Carroll does the same.
[28:33.000 --> 28:43.000] And I just think it's interesting like camp life and I think he's not a game bought by any stretch of the imagination, even though he's very focused on strategy because, you know, he has a lot of opinions and he's so passionate.
[28:43.000 --> 28:49.000] And I love players that really reach those levels. And kind of speaking to what you said about that super fan aspect of him.
[28:49.000 --> 28:59.000] My favorite John Carroll moment is when he's talking to Gabe about what is going to happen is you're going to vote into games like I'm not here for the games like to hear for the game.
[29:00.000 --> 29:05.000] And then Gabe says like, I'm not I'm not going to be playing the game. You're playing the game.
[29:05.000 --> 29:16.000] Yes, it's like they speak such different languages because like when you care so much, it's so hard to understand someone who doesn't get it at all. And John is very bright. He seems like a very fast processor.
[29:16.000 --> 29:24.000] And like for him, it's like short circuiting, you know, that's like, I think about this game every second. What do you mean you're not here for it? That means you're playing me.
[29:25.000 --> 29:37.000] And it's something that's so like realistic and he's like, no, Gabe, that is a game and Gabe's like, I'm abstaining from the game. That back and forth is really, really fun because they just have completely different world.
[29:37.000 --> 29:47.000] Yes. And the game boot, you know, is very, I know people have described it as like an end of innocence. It's the Garden of Eden. It's like that the love tribe really falling apart is so fun.
[29:48.000 --> 30:04.000] And that's again, like one thing I feel like I've used survivor through is through that tribal lens through like how there's how they are narratively together. And you just, you don't really get a tribal like essence like the Nivides in ghost island. Like we know who they are. We know they're an alliance of sorts.
[30:04.000 --> 30:16.000] But like, I don't know like who they relate. Like what do they bond over? What do they connect about? Like, what is their overall culture where I feel like for the road to is you really understood it and it all pays dividends in how the tribe falls apart in a model.
[30:16.000 --> 30:35.000] And the whole process of being a trained palmo ends up winning at all. So, these were some really good John moments. I also want to mention the finger injury that he gets, I think, like an eel bites him and like punctures his finger and, you know, just I think the painting the picture of him
[30:35.000 --> 30:55.000] super fan actually really makes sense to me because I think like a lot of the super fans that you see over the years. He's just so enthusiastic about being there and getting to just live survivor. And back then, that was a lot more survival aspects than it is by the time you're in the 30s, right?
[30:55.000 --> 31:11.000] You know, he gets stung and is like, Kathy P on me got to keep going out there. I'm going to jam my like hands under the rocks in the water. And you know, you get punctured and you still go back out there. He's he just is going going going the whole time that he's there.
[31:11.000 --> 31:32.000] And I also want to mention when he is on the jury, I think it must have, is it in the final tribal or final three, but final three final three. Yes, because Pascal is not there. And Jeff turns to John and says, John, do you want to inform them about what happened with Pascal earlier?
[31:32.000 --> 31:48.000] You see, John just immediately goes into like military nurse business where he's just explaining using like the medical terminology. And as he's ending it, he's like, okay, like nodding towards the contestants, then turns back to Jeff. He's like, okay, we're good.
[31:48.000 --> 32:01.000] I was going to, as we were talking about, I really meant to bring that up because I do love that Jeff goes to him. He doesn't bring out like Dr Joe or anybody like that.
[32:01.000 --> 32:07.000] It's like, we have somebody here who can do this better than anybody on our actual staff.
[32:07.000 --> 32:19.000] And it is kind of his last, I mean, he gets a jury question. His jury question's okay. I feel like this is kind of his final, like his swan song on the show.
[32:19.000 --> 32:33.000] He becomes the first, I think, juror to speak before the final tribal council. And barely anyone is able to do that. So it's kind of like a cool moment. And you can tell just how much of a professional he is.
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[33:07.000 --> 33:17.000] So just was John someone that you were rooting for along the way because you wanted the flip to happen, but you didn't want it to happen with Rob. So do you recall what your thoughts were?
[33:18.000 --> 33:35.000] I mean, I liked, I liked him as a character. I didn't think of him as like a villain per se. I thought it would be really boring if he ended up winning the game because we've kind of seen that game happen before.
[33:36.000 --> 33:45.000] But I think I generally enjoyed having him there. And I also thought he had such an epic ouster that I couldn't not like it.
[33:46.000 --> 33:50.000] But yeah, I think it was.
[33:51.000 --> 34:02.000] There was a point where you're looking at this show through the lens of somebody who's seen three and a half seasons as a survivor and you're seeing this alliance of four that is making no.
[34:03.000 --> 34:13.000] You know, they're not pretending that anything else is happening. And you think, oh, well, that's how a survivor works. That's just going to be what happens.
[34:13.000 --> 34:25.000] We might get one or two surprise votes kind of like kind of like we did in Australia or Africa. Like maybe one personal go that's not the person you expect, but you can like tick off who you think it's going to be next.
[34:26.000 --> 34:43.000] And that's not what happens. And the script flips. And then you kind of do know who's going home for the next ones after that. But that moment where it spins on its head, it's like you could have the coolest, best, most awesome survivor person in the world in that spot. And you still want that to happen.
[34:44.000 --> 35:00.000] Yeah, totally. I mean, and I think it's like really interesting to watch John Carroll live at the time thinking that it's like, oh, this is a guy who's just like frog marching everybody to the end game here and he's totally set up to be a potential winner.
[35:00.000 --> 35:11.000] But then knowing what's going to happen because we love rewatching survivor seasons because there's so much, there's so many choices that the editors have made.
[35:11.000 --> 35:20.000] Why were each of these individual conversations included? What are the things that they're setting up? What are they trying to make you understand about specific characters?
[35:20.000 --> 35:34.000] So going to rewatch Marquesas, knowing that John is going to have like the most epic downfall in the first four seasons, I think is a much more enjoyable and not because John is not enjoyable.
[35:34.000 --> 35:45.000] The first time you're watching it, but I think that you're really able to have a greater appreciation for him and his journey on the show. Kevin, do you remember what your thoughts were on John as the season was in?
[35:45.000 --> 35:55.000] So I was 10 during Marquesas. So, you know, I was like, I probably had as much strategic knowledge as Gabe at that point in my life.
[35:55.000 --> 36:03.000] I don't really understand all the alliances and all the flipping. I'm just like, oh, fun challenges. And I remember from Marquesas, I remember the Cleopatra confessional.
[36:03.000 --> 36:10.000] That looks so bad in my 10 year old brain, the Cleopatra confessional. She paid a lot like Sarah Jones really stood up on my mind, I guess.
[36:10.000 --> 36:19.000] She paid a lot for her body comments. And I remember the Purple Rock and stuff. But I did not remember the final nine booed at all.
[36:19.000 --> 36:31.000] It just never stayed with me because I only understood it so much. But by the time I was getting a little older in my teens, accessing the internet, reading columns, the funny 115, all things like that, there was so much reverence for Marquesas.
[36:31.000 --> 36:39.000] So it became a season I felt like I would read a lot about. I'd see clips about. I'd hear people talk about. And I'm just like, oh, this is such a fascinating season.
[36:39.000 --> 36:49.000] And so like in many ways, like I don't recall John from the time I was watching it live, but I felt like I had a lot of reverence for John because, you know, I was a closeted, you know, teen at the time.
[36:49.000 --> 36:59.000] And John is like, as Jess was talking about, this kind of like rumble tumble, tough gay guy who is out there, like working really hard, playing the game very hard.
[36:59.000 --> 37:09.000] And to borrow a Colby Donaldson quote, can you call a gay man a stud, you know, like, and I think John Carroll is like a stud in the sense that like, he's out there really putting us all out there.
[37:09.000 --> 37:18.000] And I really think related to that and the fact that like, he's a power hungry gay and I felt like I was going to be that in my life, you know, so I was like, I could be John Carroll in general.
[37:18.000 --> 37:28.000] And I've always thought about if I was ever on Survivor, I could have a cocky downfall much like John Carroll. So he's a very special place in my heart.
[37:29.000 --> 37:47.000] Yeah, and that's why we've said that high feels like a good idea of what could happen to you on Survivor, right, because I think that high is someone who is a little bit in the mold of John Carroll that comes far later, not, not the same by any means, but like hyper intelligent, but like kind of combative.
[37:47.000 --> 37:50.000] Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a lot of personality.
[37:51.000 --> 38:08.000] Did you, you knew who John was before you watch Marquesas, right? Yes, because Marquesas was a season that we watched together after I had already seen probably like 60% of the seasons Kevin said you cannot call yourself a super fan if you've never seen
[38:08.000 --> 38:17.000] Borneo and then that turned into you have to have seen all of like the old school seasons leading up to all stars, which I think fair at the end of the day.
[38:17.000 --> 38:28.000] But by the time we got to Marquesas, I definitely, you know, I knew who Kathy Vavrico Brian was. I had heard of John Carroll, but was not super, super familiar.
[38:28.000 --> 38:40.000] And I knew that the power shift was like going to happen. I didn't know if Boston Rob was going to like be a part of that or not. So I think I remember being surprised that they didn't come together when I thought it was going to.
[38:40.000 --> 38:52.000] But I knew that John Carroll would be over from at some point because I was waiting for a power shift to happen, right? And I really, really enjoyed John Carroll as I was watching.
[38:52.000 --> 39:06.000] To me, I think he's the star of the road to four. He, he's just so bold in everything that he does that I think that it just makes him like a fascinating character to watch.
[39:06.000 --> 39:17.000] I really appreciated that there was a, you know, another bold gay man out and proud in the very early 2000s on national television.
[39:17.000 --> 39:29.000] Kind of like pushing the boundaries of people's expectations of what gay men were like. Kevin and I were actually watching an episode of Will and Grace just a little bit prior to recording here.
[39:29.000 --> 39:42.000] And the episode I think also aired in 2001 actually. And, you know, so many of the jokes play on the pre-existing stereotypes of gay men that we're all, you know, so well aware of it this time.
[39:42.000 --> 39:49.000] And I think it was just, it was great that we had a John Carroll on television at that time.
[39:49.000 --> 40:00.000] Yeah, I think so. And I just, I don't know if you remember this, but I feel like when I was reading like reality news online columns of the time as I, you know, became a star fan as I got a little older.
[40:00.000 --> 40:10.000] I just remember John Carroll, I think being fairly respected by like people who were covering the show in a way, because like he was a strategist and the people who were online are like the strategy aspect of it all.
[40:10.000 --> 40:19.000] And I felt like he was much more positively received than Brandon Quinton one season earlier, who I think, you know, is more of the stereotypical flamboyant gay.
[40:19.000 --> 40:26.000] And I think there was like this like at that time gay representation believes this would be something that challenges our notions about gay men.
[40:26.000 --> 40:33.000] And I think today we wouldn't, now we'd be like well feminine men also like feminine gay men also deserve representation in like queer spaces.
[40:33.000 --> 40:47.000] But I think at that time there was something about like, no, we need like this really more masculine gay man idea to confront some of the more negative stereotypes rather than like embracing the fact that like all stereotypes are like bad to some extent.
[40:47.000 --> 40:50.000] And one thing I think is really interesting.
[40:50.000 --> 41:08.000] And you have to look back at like historically, we're not where we are now in 2024, but John was not out. He got outed on the show, which we have to, you know, in kind of a horrible way by Boston Rob.
[41:09.000 --> 41:13.000] So it's like, survivor, come get your boy.
[41:13.000 --> 41:19.000] This is the guy you want to be the face of your brand is this guy that outs people on television.
[41:19.000 --> 41:37.000] We have come a very long way from that. But it, it was almost, he does kind of the thing that Zeke ends up doing later on in game changers, where it's like he's making the best of the situation of being outed and deciding, okay, well, if this is going to happen,
[41:37.000 --> 41:46.000] then I'm going to, I'm going to represent. And you have, you see him have a lot of confessionals about like as a gay man, this is what this means to me.
[41:46.000 --> 41:59.000] And then he's, he's out to everybody on the tribe and understands that when he goes back to when he goes back from the island, he's, it's going to be a plot point on the show.
[42:00.000 --> 42:13.000] And he really makes the best of that situation and really maximizes the platform, I think. But it's also at the same time. It's like, this is maybe the first time he's the fifth gay man to play survivor.
[42:13.000 --> 42:19.000] Only the third one who's actually outed on the show.
[42:19.000 --> 42:28.000] And he ends up being the first one. I think really you don't think of him as the gay guy. He's the, he's the gamer. He's the super fan.
[42:28.000 --> 42:39.000] But he can just be who he is. And it's not like, he's not like a token. He's a really fully formed character. And it's just one piece of who he is.
[42:39.000 --> 42:48.000] Yeah. And it reminds me of Amy Cusack as well a little bit where the show, you could totally see the show like now because they love the personal story.
[42:48.000 --> 42:55.000] And like identities are very much being raised and elevated that they kind of want to talk about that in your first confessional or the first few episodes.
[42:55.000 --> 43:02.000] But they kind of wait for us to really get to know John as a person. And then that because part of the story, obviously his boss around makes certain comments.
[43:02.000 --> 43:12.000] But I remember it's something that like people could totally have not paid attention to and forgot that he was gay, which I think was also kind of important for its time as well.
[43:12.000 --> 43:18.000] But now that we've kind of covered a little bit about John, are we ready to go into some of the data I was able to pull?
[43:18.000 --> 43:29.000] I mean, you've done a lot of research. So let's jump into it. Yes. So I first looked at the subreddit just because you get a lot of like repository of like discussion and discourse.
[43:29.000 --> 43:40.000] I searched John Carroll's name. Some things I found here was that people definitely talking about his blind side. It's very synonymous with John Carroll. It's hard to talk about John Carroll without talking about the downfall of him.
[43:40.000 --> 43:51.000] People mentioned that like he had such a fantastic reaction to the to the elimination. It's a top three blind side of all time. You know, it's a season changing moment, but also a show changing moment.
[43:51.000 --> 44:09.000] And, you know, I'll actually just add that, you know, people commenting here saying that you have to mention the blind side. It's synonymous with John. And I think it's because the show really, especially at that time, they build the story from start to finish on John.
[44:09.000 --> 44:22.000] But everything is leading to the climax, the crescendo of his elimination because it was supposed to be shocking. It was the first time that we were ever going to see a true realignment happen in the game.
[44:22.000 --> 44:36.000] Yeah. And I also found people talk about like, well, what would have happened without the coconut chop was John going to win. So Jess, do you think John was the likely winner out of this group if they're able to get to the final nine vote or do you think it's actually a different end game?
[44:36.000 --> 44:50.000] I mean, I think it's either John or Tammy, because I think one thing that jumps out at me watching the show back all these years later is that the two of them are really the power duo.
[44:50.000 --> 45:00.000] And you have like Zoey kind of wakes up on day 24 with everybody else and tries to play the game a little bit. In the general, I don't know what the hell he's doing out there.
[45:01.000 --> 45:17.000] But I think you could probably make a case like if the road to four goes all the way to the end. I think Tammy had a very strong case. I think she probably could have pulled out a win, especially if she gets rid of him at some point and turns on him, which she was capable of doing.
[45:18.000 --> 45:34.000] Yeah, but I do think when you're watching it and you don't know what's going to happen, you look at him as this alliance emerges, you look at him as the person who is the most likely winner. And part of that, he's also very alpha about it.
[45:34.000 --> 45:44.000] Like he declares himself the leader of the road to tribe. And, you know, even Richard Hatch didn't declare himself.
[45:44.000 --> 45:57.000] Yeah, I think so. And, you know, it's John who we hear say things like, Nylia and Pascal are rooting for my success, right? Like, we don't, you know, Tammy is just as confident. And I think there are four sums ability.
[45:57.000 --> 46:13.000] But we don't hear nearly as much because Tammy I think is one of the more actually positively toned members of that alliance because she's a bit more of the anti hero underdog as it collapses because I think we're supposed to side with her over like Zoey, for example, in the fallout of the road to four.
[46:14.000 --> 46:20.000] Well, also searching things about John. I noticed that he does have a pretty big online presence, actually.
[46:20.000 --> 46:31.000] You know, he's been very vocal about wanting to go back on to survivor. There's an AMA with him. And actually, that one funny thread I found was someone had asked which survivor had the biggest ego while playing.
[46:31.000 --> 46:44.000] And with 592 upvotes, survivor John, which is John Carroll's Reddit username has just an emoji with a hand up. And everyone's like, yes, the owning of that.
[46:44.000 --> 46:51.000] And I feel like that's actually something true about John is that John is always kind of own the fact that like, yeah, I was a bit of a cocky son of a gun.
[46:51.000 --> 46:57.000] It got the best of me, but it was iconic. And I think I love that about him.
[46:58.000 --> 47:09.000] I have an interesting legacy question to float here, because I was watching back how he handles himself when he's in a position of power.
[47:09.000 --> 47:22.000] I want to know if I'm completely off base by saying that many years later, redemption island Boston Rob has John Carroll in the back of his head, as he is.
[47:22.000 --> 47:27.000] Thinking about like, how did hubris take down John? How do I make sure that doesn't happen to me?
[47:27.000 --> 47:37.000] And the way that he structures his alliance and the way that he puts them all in lockstep, it feels very much to me like he is learning from what he witnessed in our cases.
[47:37.000 --> 47:44.000] Yeah, I think that's actually not a crazy idea at all, considering that, like, he also holds the All Stars group down very well.
[47:45.000 --> 47:49.000] And I think you can imagine if you're in his shoes, it's like, Andrea could be a Nalia.
[47:49.000 --> 47:56.000] You know, so let's let's figure out a way that locks her in and makes her feel more confident in our group so she doesn't flip.
[47:56.000 --> 48:03.000] And I've always believed that Boston Rob's heroes versus villains appearance almost felt like a good ending.
[48:03.000 --> 48:12.000] If they didn't want to bring Boston Rob after that, I think it totally been fine for him to be a pre-merged character because he becomes the hunter Ellis that he overthrew in the beginning, right?
[48:12.000 --> 48:13.000] Yeah.
[48:13.000 --> 48:24.000] And Russell Hance was now the new Boston Rob who's kind of stirring the pot, you know, with a bunch of people who are maybe lazier, more negatively people, like, you know, taking out the legends in some way.
[48:24.000 --> 48:34.000] So I think there's probably some of that as well. And I think Boston Rob has to think about Marquesas to an extent and how he thinks about like what it means to be in power.
[48:34.000 --> 48:45.000] Yeah. And the fact that he returns for all stars but makes it to the end with Amber is something that he's okay with, right? Like he ends up marrying Amber.
[48:45.000 --> 48:54.000] So I think that the lesson he probably takes away from all stars is like, well, you just sit next to someone who they're slightly more mad at than you.
[48:54.000 --> 49:01.000] You only need to flip one vote there, right? So I think that from the tactician perspective, that totally makes sense.
[49:01.000 --> 49:12.000] And I also found usually when you look up, John, you're going to find Road to Four stuff. And a lot of people talking about, there's a thread saying the Road to Four is the most incompetent alliance ever.
[49:12.000 --> 49:15.000] I mean, bold prediction.
[49:15.000 --> 49:17.000] Have they, have they seen?
[49:17.000 --> 49:19.000] Have they seen survivor Panama?
[49:22.000 --> 49:30.000] Yeah, I mean, right? Like it's, it's, I think it probably is getting a modern fan probably watching Marquesas without the historical context.
[49:30.000 --> 49:38.000] And it's like, well, they're nine, eight, seven, six, like they're all kind of out early. It was so easy for them to hide it, but like, there really wasn't a precedent there.
[49:38.000 --> 49:51.000] I mean, I mean, and I do think like, I think about Jerry Manti kind of mentioning all of her friends at an early Oga Court tribal council where she's like, you know, I really connected with Mitchell and Amber and Colby.
[49:51.000 --> 50:09.000] And I'm meaning, I'm just like, the first part of the team in Keith, they're just like, on the periphery. And that's kind of like, really the first power shift is the Mitchell boot.
[50:09.000 --> 50:12.000] Eliminating gaze is essential to power shifts apparently, and early survivor.
[50:12.000 --> 50:20.000] And so, but like, because it's not post merge and because it's not like this, like, more disparate groups coming together, it's, it's not nearly as like monumental.
[50:20.000 --> 50:23.280] So, so I think it is like something that also comes around that conversation we've had about
[50:23.280 --> 50:28.080] Mark Case as being a season where you have to think about the time period it was in.
[50:28.080 --> 50:32.000] And I think people also need to remember is that this isn't just like the fourth season
[50:32.000 --> 50:37.520] of Survivor, this is still the very earliest stages of reality television.
[50:37.520 --> 50:43.400] Yeah, and what we know it as, and I think today, you know, Kevin and I have started watching
[50:43.400 --> 50:50.280] the new Netflix reality TV show, The Trust, which is we think interesting because it has
[50:50.280 --> 50:54.480] a lot of like Borneo-esque elements to it where there are a lot of people who seem to
[50:54.480 --> 50:59.800] be very naive about the evils that can come with this game.
[50:59.800 --> 51:05.640] But even with those people, there are others who seem to have the fundamental understanding
[51:05.640 --> 51:10.680] of like there are numbers here, people are going to be playing a game that I think exists
[51:10.680 --> 51:16.680] because we've had Survivor as a part of our culture for the last like almost 25 years.
[51:16.680 --> 51:23.160] There was a question in one of the Republican primary presidential debates, this cycle where
[51:23.160 --> 51:26.040] they asked, who would you vote off the eyelids, right?
[51:26.040 --> 51:32.800] That is a reference to Survivor where people in general kind of have like an understanding
[51:32.800 --> 51:34.760] of this of you vote each other off.
[51:34.760 --> 51:36.800] There are like alliances and things.
[51:36.800 --> 51:41.560] There are references to Survivor on like the office in the mid 2000s, right?
[51:41.560 --> 51:48.920] So I think it's very easy to forget how novel all of this was for especially the people who
[51:48.920 --> 51:51.720] were out there playing on just the fourth season of this show.
[51:51.720 --> 51:52.720] Yeah.
[51:52.720 --> 51:56.080] I think it's also hard to overstate like how popular it was.
[51:56.080 --> 52:00.640] Like it wasn't, we weren't at peak levels, like the numbers were starting to drop off,
[52:00.640 --> 52:07.760] but this was still like a multiple of the numbers we're getting now.
[52:07.760 --> 52:15.360] It was 25 million people watching an episode of anything now would be headline news.
[52:15.360 --> 52:17.600] And this was every episode of Survivor Mark cases.
[52:17.600 --> 52:19.200] So that's hard to overstate.
[52:19.200 --> 52:24.280] Oh, PS, when you do, you thought you knew Mitchell Olson, please call me.
[52:24.280 --> 52:30.560] One day, you know, once we get through another hundred or so, I feel like we can finally
[52:30.560 --> 52:35.040] go on Mitchell in particular.
[52:35.040 --> 52:39.600] But I also wanted to kind of mention that in my research, I also found that I usually reference
[52:39.600 --> 52:43.440] a Reddit poll about contestants being ranked.
[52:43.440 --> 52:48.400] Before I get to that though, I found one on Survivor Moments being ranked in 2016.
[52:48.400 --> 52:52.960] Now the number one moment that the subreddit had ranked was Eric giving up immunity, a classic
[52:52.960 --> 52:59.120] favorite that fans and production loves trotting out as much as they can.
[52:59.120 --> 53:02.680] But there are two moments from our cases that make this list.
[53:02.680 --> 53:06.840] Number 78, Cathy Pease on John's hand.
[53:06.840 --> 53:07.840] Fantastic.
[53:07.840 --> 53:11.320] And the fall of the road to four ranked as number 27.
[53:11.320 --> 53:13.720] So again, the road to four is really kind of stayed on.
[53:13.720 --> 53:18.360] I think maybe people have forgotten about the Cathy and John peeing thing, but we haven't
[53:18.360 --> 53:22.160] really talked about Cathy peeing on John.
[53:22.160 --> 53:25.840] Jess, did you have any memory of this or what it was like talking about it?
[53:26.320 --> 53:31.640] It's like the number one thing that people remembered about this season.
[53:31.640 --> 53:37.760] This person getting peed on on national television and the way that was all set up.
[53:37.760 --> 53:44.160] And of course, I have a hard time now because I've been so in the fandom for half my life
[53:44.160 --> 53:45.680] at this point.
[53:45.680 --> 53:50.120] But it's really hard to watch these old seasons without thinking back to Mario Lanza's funny
[53:50.120 --> 53:51.120] one, 15.
[53:51.120 --> 53:52.120] Yeah.
[53:52.120 --> 53:55.600] And anytime one of those moments comes up, it's like, you know, spotting a celebrity in
[53:55.600 --> 53:57.120] the wild.
[53:57.120 --> 54:02.920] And it is still it is one of the most iconic moments of the season, for sure.
[54:02.920 --> 54:03.920] Yeah.
[54:03.920 --> 54:08.320] And I feel like the forgotten thing about it is that like Pascal tried to go for like
[54:08.320 --> 54:11.200] like some other people wanted to go before Cathy, right?
[54:11.200 --> 54:13.320] It was like a walled in.
[54:13.320 --> 54:16.080] She was the only one that could rise to the occasion.
[54:16.080 --> 54:17.080] Yes.
[54:17.080 --> 54:18.440] And then I think relief picture.
[54:18.440 --> 54:22.000] And then I remember people talking about half the relief pictures really good.
[54:22.000 --> 54:25.560] And I remember like the thought that it's like, he only needs a little bit of urine.
[54:25.560 --> 54:31.080] It's like, you know, she's like, it's not a good for me to pull away.
[54:31.080 --> 54:33.240] He's like, I don't need this anymore.
[54:33.240 --> 54:35.520] It's like such weird dynamics.
[54:35.520 --> 54:37.760] It's so funny to me.
[54:37.760 --> 54:43.960] And I think it really is, you know, that like early survival stuff that was bringing so many
[54:43.960 --> 54:49.560] people in at the time that like, what happens when you just drop 16 Americans on an island
[54:49.560 --> 54:53.240] and they have to live eventually one of them will have to pee on the other?
[54:53.240 --> 54:55.040] It's just going to happen.
[54:55.440 --> 54:56.440] Yes.
[54:56.960 --> 55:00.680] So I did want to get to the poll that I found where they ranked all the contestants.
[55:00.680 --> 55:02.480] So 575 appearances.
[55:02.480 --> 55:07.160] So Boston Rob was in there four times for his four returny appearances overall.
[55:08.360 --> 55:10.920] John Carroll's ranked once for his one season in Marquesas.
[55:10.920 --> 55:12.960] There's 575 people to pick from.
[55:14.040 --> 55:17.440] Jess, do you have an idea of where you think John Carroll might rank?
[55:17.440 --> 55:22.480] Is he in the 100s, 200s, top 10, bottom 100?
[55:22.880 --> 55:26.160] I would probably say he's.
[55:27.600 --> 55:29.280] It was so long ago.
[55:29.280 --> 55:32.720] And I think a lot of these polls suffer for a little recency bias.
[55:32.720 --> 55:37.680] I think he's going to be in the 300s or the high 200s.
[55:37.680 --> 55:38.080] Got you.
[55:38.080 --> 55:42.960] So that's around like the middling, you know, like middle of the pack, like.
[55:42.960 --> 55:47.480] Probably toward the lower end of the bell curve, unfortunately.
[55:47.480 --> 55:49.680] OK, I'm interested to know.
[55:49.680 --> 55:50.800] Yeah.
[55:50.800 --> 55:52.040] I don't know about Nigel, any thoughts?
[55:52.040 --> 55:58.520] So I think his issue is how many of these people watched Marquesas, right?
[55:58.520 --> 56:04.600] So I think that the people that watched it would probably give him a pretty decent ranking.
[56:04.600 --> 56:07.200] But when you factor in all the people who've just never seen it,
[56:07.200 --> 56:11.320] I feel like we're going to be somewhere between like 200 and 250.
[56:11.320 --> 56:14.320] And if he's below that, I'm going to be very disciplined.
[56:14.320 --> 56:17.720] John Carroll was ranked 157.
[56:17.720 --> 56:18.600] Yes.
[56:18.680 --> 56:21.880] I love it when people surprise me in a good way.
[56:21.880 --> 56:22.400] Yeah.
[56:22.400 --> 56:26.480] So that's like top like 30ish percent, like very impressive, I think.
[56:26.480 --> 56:31.000] I think very fair considering the fact that like Reddit skews younger.
[56:31.000 --> 56:35.880] So they're probably newer fans who are also way more like strategy, modern focus.
[56:35.880 --> 56:37.160] That seems I'm happy.
[56:37.160 --> 56:41.800] Yeah, I think John Carroll has actually gotten better with time in a way where I think at the time,
[56:41.800 --> 56:45.800] it was like, look at that jerk getting, you know, blindsided and crying, you know,
[56:45.800 --> 56:48.760] like we're now it's like, oh, what an important piece of our history.
[56:48.760 --> 56:52.120] You know, like I think that's John Carroll's thought of more positively there.
[56:52.120 --> 56:57.800] I think it is really worth noting how much meaner people were in 2002.
[56:58.680 --> 56:59.000] Yeah.
[56:59.000 --> 57:02.680] People on the internet, like, you know, we say that people on the internet are mean now,
[57:03.480 --> 57:08.760] but it is nothing compared to how reality TV contestants were treated in the early 2000s.
[57:09.560 --> 57:15.080] So yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on that one of the prevailing sentiments at the time was,
[57:15.560 --> 57:19.480] that guy cried when he got voted out and people didn't say that.
[57:19.480 --> 57:22.280] Like people were just awful to reality contestants.
[57:22.280 --> 57:27.400] I mean, this is like right around the time of William Hung on American Idol, right?
[57:27.400 --> 57:32.840] Yes, our culture loved to laugh at specific individual people.
[57:32.840 --> 57:34.120] It was like all the rage.
[57:35.320 --> 57:43.320] Yeah, it was really, I would say up until probably about like the 2002 to 2007 was really peak
[57:45.320 --> 57:48.280] choose someone and make them the butt monkey of the day.
[57:49.400 --> 57:49.960] Yes.
[57:49.960 --> 57:50.520] Yeah.
[57:50.520 --> 57:55.480] And I mean, it was kind of like a tabloid era as well, but now you have like regular
[57:55.480 --> 57:59.400] individuals are able to kind of comment and talk about things.
[57:59.400 --> 58:02.840] And it definitely was a different time.
[58:02.840 --> 58:05.240] When you think about how much like hate male, Jerry Manthy got, right?
[58:06.200 --> 58:09.640] It's very, very different because so many more people were watching the show.
[58:09.640 --> 58:13.480] And I think it's so hard to even conceptualize that as someone who came in much later to the show.
[58:13.480 --> 58:15.560] But I mean, everyone was talking about it.
[58:43.480 --> 58:45.080] This for me played the Godfather.
[58:45.080 --> 58:46.840] Now a chump of casino.com.
[58:46.840 --> 58:48.440] Welcome to the family.
[58:48.440 --> 58:49.240] V.D.W. Group.
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[58:50.040 --> 58:50.920] We were prohibited by loss.
[58:50.920 --> 58:52.200] He terms and conditions 18 plus.
[58:53.400 --> 58:57.800] I want to now move into the historical concept of John Carroll.
[58:57.800 --> 59:02.920] And I think we all kind of hit on the head that he's having more popular now because I found
[59:02.920 --> 59:05.800] a popularity poll from right after Palau.
[59:06.360 --> 59:10.040] So that's 2005, 2006, right?
[59:10.040 --> 59:13.160] And John Carroll out of the 150 contestants then.
[59:13.560 --> 59:15.240] Was ranked 96.
[59:15.240 --> 59:18.760] So that's actually towards the bottom half of contestants.
[59:18.760 --> 59:23.400] He's actually right below Viseppe and Sean, who were actually fairly polarizing characters as well.
[59:24.120 --> 59:25.240] We haven't really talked about that.
[59:25.240 --> 59:29.960] But Jess, do you recall what the fan base's thoughts on Viseppe and Sean were then?
[59:31.320 --> 59:35.640] I think, well, again, again, this was a much less enlightened time.
[59:36.360 --> 59:36.920] Yes.
[59:36.920 --> 59:39.640] But people hated Viseppe as win.
[59:39.640 --> 59:42.040] And I think that is production's fault.
[59:42.040 --> 59:47.480] I think that is the editor's fault for burying that story because she's an incredible player.
[59:48.040 --> 59:48.760] And it's criminal.
[59:48.760 --> 59:51.000] They didn't ask back for winners at war.
[59:51.000 --> 59:52.360] She would have gone in a heartbeat.
[59:53.640 --> 01:00:01.320] But I do think that Viseppe ends up getting kind of the short-shrypt on that.
[01:00:01] And for years, like I would say, it's probably been maybe the last five or six years that
[01:00:06] people have come around to sheep actually played a really good game.
[01:00:09] When you get into these deep survivor wonks talking about best winners of all time,
[01:00:13] she's risen in the ranks.
[01:00:15] But for a very long time, it was like, she's a bottom five winner.
[01:00:19] She's down there with Bob from Gabon and Amber.
[01:00:23] And I think it's really unfair.
[01:00:27] But I also think there's some unconscious bias that goes into that as well.
[01:00:33] And I think the same with how people felt about Sean, who is probably, for my money,
[01:00:38] the funniest narrator on the season.
[01:00:41] And he's effortlessly funny.
[01:00:45] Like he just says things and they are funny as opposed to like Boston Rob,
[01:00:49] that you can kind of see him going back to the shelter at night and like writing his material.
[01:00:55] Sean, just like he's quick about it.
[01:00:58] And Rob gets there eventually.
[01:00:59] But this is like, he just comes in and he's very much organically himself and not trying to impress
[01:01:06] anybody. And he was a huge character, the huge personality that I think that was very
[01:01:14] polarizing for a lot of people.
[01:01:16] Yeah, I remember, I always had a saw for Visepia because I always remember that like,
[01:01:22] she was like the under the radar winner.
[01:01:23] You know, and so she was like the first of that type.
[01:01:26] And she was not really well respected.
[01:01:28] So I always felt like a Visepia advocate, if you will.
[01:01:32] And I remember Sean Rektor being very negatively received actually,
[01:01:38] because I mean, he's talking about race in a way that like we understand it now, right?
[01:01:42] It's the enlightenment issue here.
[01:01:45] But like, you know, right after 9-11, I think the last thing a lot of Americans wanted to hear
[01:01:48] was how we're different from one another.
[01:01:49] They really wanted to hear about how we're also similar.
[01:01:52] And they didn't want to see Sarah laying on that American flag on the beach.
[01:01:55] And it was just like a very different time.
[01:01:58] And I think as time has gone on, Sean and Visepia and John Carroll have all really kind of risen
[01:02:04] up the ranks of people I'm really glad to see.
[01:02:09] Jess, I think you're totally right about Sean being the funniest person on the season.
[01:02:13] I think Sean is one of the funniest people to have ever been on Survivor.
[01:02:16] And you're right that you can see that Boston Rob is very smart and he knows what he needs
[01:02:22] to do to be funny.
[01:02:24] But you could just like walk up to Sean, ask him a question that he does not know is coming,
[01:02:29] and he's going to be funny in his response, right?
[01:02:32] Everything he does is hilarious.
[01:02:34] And I think his humor ages very well, especially in the modern context,
[01:02:40] because he makes jokes about Al Sharpton, like hauling into the radio.
[01:02:48] He talks about the roots theme song, you know, like he's like all
[01:02:52] in a way that like these lily white people are not ready.
[01:02:56] You know, like it is it is very different.
[01:02:59] And like even hearing people like Kathy, you know, who's very positively toned.
[01:03:03] We're supposed to really like her.
[01:03:04] You know, she talks about like, you know, the race card and you know,
[01:03:06] a million Pascal talk about race in ways that were very true of the time, right?
[01:03:10] Like I think now there it's even it feels more like kind of cringy.
[01:03:15] But like that is how millions of people were talking about race in 2002.
[01:03:21] So it is a very interesting like time capsule.
[01:03:24] But you also have Sean be very candid about his identity in ways that you
[01:03:27] didn't see on television at the time.
[01:03:29] And now we get a lot more moments like that.
[01:03:31] But this was really, I think people weren't ready for it yet.
[01:03:36] And I'm glad they've gotten there.
[01:03:38] Exactly.
[01:03:38] And you know, I remember like in places like, you know,
[01:03:41] the super fan internet community, there was always a lot of talk about
[01:03:44] how Sean rector probably could have been on all stars instead of Boston Rob,
[01:03:48] because you know, they have similar art, but Sean goes further.
[01:03:50] He's a person of color, all of that.
[01:03:51] But the reality is that Sean wasn't that popular with the audience.
[01:03:55] You know, like Rob, I think had a decent amount of like fanboys in particular.
[01:04:00] The godfather was so popular, you know, as a concept.
[01:04:02] But Sean, I think was just so much more divisive in a way that yeah,
[01:04:07] people were not fully embracing.
[01:04:10] I did find some articles from 2002.
[01:04:13] I have Dalton Ross talking about the episode, John's boot episode.
[01:04:17] He describes it as perhaps one of the best survivor episodes ever.
[01:04:20] Of course, it's only four seasons, but I still believe it's one of the best of all time.
[01:04:25] He mentions it as a huge shift in the balance of power.
[01:04:27] He says, never before has Mark Burnett been able to shake things up so late in the contest.
[01:04:32] Just like that, we have a new quintet in charge.
[01:04:35] And while rooting for the likes of Sean, who he describes as lazy,
[01:04:38] confrontational and nonsensical.
[01:04:41] And Kathy, who he describes as just plain nuts half of the time.
[01:04:45] Maybe difficult for some.
[01:04:46] It totally changes the face of the show, which is always a good thing.
[01:04:50] Plus, Nelly of Ecepheia and Haskell, while relatively boring,
[01:04:53] are much easier to root for than any of the other fearsome for some.
[01:04:58] And then describes John's speech as brilliant.
[01:05:01] And he even does a shout out to like, my abs are incredible.
[01:05:06] Jess, do you have any reactions to Dalton's right up here?
[01:05:10] And Dalton Ross is also OG survivor fan.
[01:05:14] Yeah.
[01:05:15] I remember reading him all the way back in the day.
[01:05:19] Yeah, I mean, he's right about it.
[01:05:21] It was probably that episode might be the best episode to date in terms of like unpredictability
[01:05:30] and the narrative arc.
[01:05:32] I think you could have some contenders in previous seasons, but this one
[01:05:39] was genuinely surprising.
[01:05:41] And it was genuinely, again, it was the thing that everybody kind of wanted to happen.
[01:05:46] And they'd been primed to have it happen since the first time an alliance took over.
[01:05:51] They wanted somebody to come in and try to make that happen.
[01:05:54] And this was the first time somebody pulled it off.
[01:05:56] I think it's the same thing as like flushing out an idol.
[01:05:59] The first time an immunity idol shows up in survivor.
[01:06:02] You're thinking, well, here's what you have to do.
[01:06:05] Here's how you have to set up the pieces to counteract that.
[01:06:08] And nobody does it for probably five or six seasons after they introduce it.
[01:06:13] And it takes them that long to get everybody on the same page with it.
[01:06:18] And this was this was that.
[01:06:21] And then I think you get the very next season, you get survivor Thailand,
[01:06:27] where somebody does try to do that.
[01:06:29] Somebody does try to flip and the show is just so.
[01:06:35] So strongly against the notion of anybody shaking anything up that season.
[01:06:43] And it's the most frustrating thing.
[01:06:45] It's why Thailand is one of the worst seasons of all time.
[01:06:48] Yeah, I think it really helps.
[01:06:49] Mark cases is a legacy that it proceeds in.
[01:06:51] It's an exciting moment.
[01:06:53] And then Thailand feels like a dark era reset.
[01:06:56] It's like how it's like a one season dark.
[01:06:58] It's like how do we learn like the ancient Romans knew about cement and then we forgot about it.
[01:07:03] And then we had time.
[01:07:04] We had to relearn it.
[01:07:05] That is what happened in Thailand.
[01:07:07] Yeah, like Northern Europeans in currency, they had coins and then they didn't have coins.
[01:07:13] Or in Mark cases, it's like a bump in the strategy road between Africa and Thailand.
[01:07:23] It's kind of we see the old survivor with the strategy and the beaches.
[01:07:29] And then on either side of it, you have Africa and Thailand and Africa is entertaining.
[01:07:33] Don't get me wrong, but it's I feel like Mark cases is just like head and shoulders above
[01:07:39] both of those seasons for reasons of setting, of strategy, of characters.
[01:07:46] It's got all the best ingredients.
[01:07:49] Yeah, I also found Mario Lanza's recap of the John Boot episode from 2002 as well.
[01:07:56] He describes it first as a great episode and had wonderful suspense with a conclusion that made
[01:08:02] most people ecstatic.
[01:08:04] But he does mention in his write up, this season makes my head hurt.
[01:08:07] Up until season four, the game made a lot of sense and would always follow a somewhat
[01:08:11] predictable pattern.
[01:08:13] So please forgive me if you're expecting some great wisdom from my column this week.
[01:08:16] I have none.
[01:08:18] And I think that really kind of captures how people fell to the time, which is like,
[01:08:21] who knows what's going to happen next?
[01:08:22] People can just totally turn on people in a way that we really weren't prepared for.
[01:08:26] But it's like Mario, buddy, that's a feature, not a bug.
[01:08:30] He came around to it eventually.
[01:08:32] Yes.
[01:08:32] Yes.
[01:08:33] And I think that for the people who were really craving for a flip like this to happen,
[01:08:38] it also cements the fact that this is possible once one group has done it,
[01:08:43] that means that this is going to happen again and again and that you're not hoping hopelessly,
[01:08:49] right?
[01:08:49] Like this is something that you can enjoy for years to come.
[01:08:53] Well, this goes back to your central thesis of John Carroll's boot saving survivor.
[01:08:59] Yeah, I think it absolutely did.
[01:09:02] I think it did.
[01:09:03] And theoretically, maybe someone else does it eventually, right?
[01:09:07] But I think it's really at the right time.
[01:09:09] It was an evolution of the show.
[01:09:11] And it also, I think, helps that the swap helps create that tension as well.
[01:09:16] And the swap, I think, in my opinion, might be the best twist in Survivor.
[01:09:20] I don't know if I feel confident in saying that.
[01:09:22] I will say it.
[01:09:23] I will say it out loud right now.
[01:09:24] I think the Tribal Swap is the best twist the show ever introduced.
[01:09:28] And I think John Carroll pays the price for that because he's also learning to figure out
[01:09:33] what do you do about the swap, which forces him to be overextended, which causes the power
[01:09:38] kind of crazed and fall and all of that.
[01:09:45] Nige, did you think that John Carroll blindside is like a top three blind side of all time when
[01:09:51] you got to it?
[01:09:51] Because if you started with Coggy on, it's kind of a weird thing to put in the same echelon.
[01:09:56] What do you think are the best blind sides of the show?
[01:09:58] So I remember Coggy on being my first season.
[01:10:03] I remember that merge vote where you have the Tony side playing multiple idols,
[01:10:10] but they did not play them on the right person and that you see Jeffra is the one getting the
[01:10:15] votes. And so you think you know where it's going.
[01:10:18] And then you find out that cast flips and that the numbers are not actually there.
[01:10:23] I mean, you are getting like whiplash there.
[01:10:25] And I remember watching that episode and thinking like,
[01:10:29] this is like maybe the most exciting show that I have like ever seen before.
[01:10:33] And I don't think that the John Carroll boot elicits the same type of reaction.
[01:10:40] But I think as someone who watched that season, that episode by the time I was like probably 80%
[01:10:48] of the way through the show, I think I would rank it in like maybe the top five blind sides
[01:10:54] of all time because it's so important. And I think that the story is so well done.
[01:10:59] You are leading to that moment for many episodes.
[01:11:03] We're setting that up for like a long time.
[01:11:05] And so it might not be the flashiest one that's out there.
[01:11:09] But I think I would still rank it very, very high because I have my
[01:11:14] historian hat on now in a way that I didn't when I'd only seen like four or five seasons.
[01:11:19] Jess, what blind sides do you think are at the same like echelon tier as the John Carroll one for you?
[01:11:28] I mean, the the one that jumps to my mind, honestly, and it's got to be the Edgardo blindside and Fiji.
[01:11:36] Yes, it's a good one. Yeah.
[01:11:38] Which I think is a little like forgotten about actually a little bit.
[01:11:42] Yeah, because that season is not one of the most memorable. We didn't get a ton of people
[01:11:48] returning to play from that season. And it does get sort of lost in the shuffle.
[01:11:55] But I think I certainly think that John Carroll might be the first true blind side we get in all
[01:12:01] of survivor. And I would also maybe I would say the the Marcus boot and Gabon is another good one.
[01:12:10] It also brought you the best survivor gift of all time.
[01:12:14] Yes, I remember when I watched that moment happen, I like positive. I was like, I know this
[01:12:20] this gift is from the internet. I have seen this scene before. It was crazy.
[01:12:25] It's something in the wild. And I think the Marcus boot is something I also think about as a
[01:12:28] really exciting power shift as well. And you know, the victors are people of color. They're
[01:12:36] people who take out someone who felt so well suited. A medical professional is eliminated. You
[01:12:40] know, has it has a lot of the same, I think, levels of this like really comfortable person
[01:12:45] that people were totally willing to take to the enemy. You kept hearing mostly from Charlie,
[01:12:48] but from a lot of other people, how much they loved Marcus. And the idea of the underdogs,
[01:12:55] the people who from like the tribe that's failing more often, because I think fang has a lot of
[01:12:59] parallels to Mata Amu is really fun. I think of the Lee Ann blind side in Vanuatu as a parallel
[01:13:07] because it's the Eliza working with her nemesis in the way that like John, like Sean and like
[01:13:14] past the past while are working together. And I also think of the Aussie blind side,
[01:13:18] because it's a final nine vote. And I think final nine is one of the more exciting numbers
[01:13:22] in classic survivor. I also want to give an honorary mention to the Amazon Alex.
[01:13:30] No, not Alex the Dean of the merge. Oh, Roger. Yeah, with Roger. Yeah, because you
[01:13:36] I think the people at, you know, at least that I wanted to see come together ended up coming together.
[01:13:42] And I thought it was just so sweet having all of the men versus women butting heads along the way.
[01:13:47] And the men just kind of like keep getting stomped on after time.
[01:13:51] Yeah. Well, it's it's so funny to call that a blind side. I think it kind of was, but it's also like,
[01:13:59] that's the most interesting. I think Mario Lanza has written about this at great length,
[01:14:04] but it's one of the most interesting episodes from an editing standpoint,
[01:14:07] because they really do not pretend it is anybody else going home at any point in that episode.
[01:14:12] Yeah, it's like a like a hit job, if you will. Roger was blunched. Roger and Roger's family
[01:14:19] better than like what it's like. Roger's literally the only person that didn't know that was coming.
[01:14:23] Yeah, it was like a really big one. And thinking about blinds as of that time,
[01:14:27] the Rupert blind side, I think also, which has this again, this shifting of groups feeling
[01:14:32] you're at the bottom of your group and then wanting to change that.
[01:14:35] But unlike Marquesas, we're not supposed to root for the new group in the same way.
[01:14:38] So I think that's actually a really exciting thing. And it's something I just can't help but
[01:14:42] want to convey more often to new school fans, which is that, you know, from the narrative perspective,
[01:14:48] from editing the entire season as a whole, it's usually built up to one really big vote.
[01:14:53] And they're like two halves. It's a pre Rupert post Rupert. It's pre John Carroll post John Carroll,
[01:14:59] pre Marcus post Marcus. It's like all they're really, really important about that. And now
[01:15:03] that they happen so often, you just don't have that same like salivation, if you will, but you do
[01:15:08] get more suspense. We're tribal councils, I think in Marquesas sometimes can feel very anticlimactic.
[01:15:13] But like if you get really one really good one who really cares because you're enjoying all
[01:15:17] the camp life stuff that comes out of it. Yeah, certainly to me, it feels like in later
[01:15:25] seasons of Survivor, it's kind of like we we think it's garbage if somebody doesn't get blindside.
[01:15:34] And there aren't any episodes that aren't blindsides anymore. And we're just completely spoiled.
[01:15:41] And I like going back to these. And it's like, I don't want to eat candy for every meal,
[01:15:47] but like it's one night a year where I get to have Halloween candy for dinner. That's cool.
[01:15:53] Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. We are spoiled. And what I really like about the old school seasons
[01:15:59] is that not every episode is meant to be a blindside. And you're I think really able to
[01:16:05] enjoy the show in different ways, because a blindside is not the only way to have a satisfying episode.
[01:16:13] I actually think a good modern version is the Stephanie ghost island.
[01:16:20] Yes, Stephanie Johnson. Yeah, the Stephanie Johnson boot, because they are not
[01:16:27] telling you anything else is going to happen. And it's a tragedy episode, which I think can be
[01:16:32] really powerful. So I like that in the old seasons that often trouble counsels not really
[01:16:39] supposed to be that important. Whereas in modern Survivor, it feels like trouble counsel is
[01:16:43] always what they want the high point of the episode to be. Yeah, well, yeah, go ahead, Jess.
[01:16:50] And if I may, I'll say that these old seasons of Survivor really benefit from watching on a binge.
[01:16:59] And back in the day, you had to watch it like if you were not home on Wednesday night,
[01:17:06] or I didn't I can't even remember what night it was on. I think Thursday by that point, right?
[01:17:10] It was Thursday's for this season. And for, I think also for Thailand, it moved around a
[01:17:16] little bit in those early seasons. But if you were not home at the time that it aired,
[01:17:19] you were not going to get to watch it. And then you had to wait an entire week for the next thing.
[01:17:23] But I find that if you're watching like long stretches of it, that blind side comes in,
[01:17:31] it's like a perfect punctuation mark on a longer arc. And I think telling the story that way,
[01:17:37] and consuming the story that way is really helpful in those instances.
[01:17:41] Yeah, I think Marques is one of the best stories ever told, save the Visepia winner at it. That's
[01:17:47] the one thing I feel like, if that was adjusted, I think in change, it actually is like true
[01:17:52] perfection. Here's a question, Kev. Okay, where do you pull professionals? Like,
[01:17:59] where do you pull airtime to give Visepia more story? Because she's very under edited.
[01:18:04] But Marques doesn't strike me as feeling particularly lopsided towards one person,
[01:18:10] the way that like, rustle hands on it, the seasons that he's on is always so lopsided.
[01:18:15] And you know, and Visepia isn't nearly as under the radar. I think as people
[01:18:19] recall, if you just count her confessionals, it's not nearly as bad as like Natalie White,
[01:18:23] for example. But like, she just seems so like nebulous. And it's because she's playing a game
[01:18:27] where she's kind of has good business relationships with everyone. I feel like they could have shown
[01:18:31] that a bit more maybe take, I don't know if this is a controversial statement or not, maybe some of
[01:18:36] the more like stuff about her spirituality could have been shifted more into like how she thinks
[01:18:40] about the game. I actually think Visepia as a game bot could have been more interesting than
[01:18:44] then Visepia just as like, like the quote, the character because of the characterization is pretty
[01:18:51] limited, even though she I think is clever and funny and charming. But maybe I would take a little
[01:18:56] bit from Gina, I guess, if I had to say anyone just because
[01:19:02] Gina doesn't seem that important when you get Stephanie LaGrosa later, you know, it's like to me,
[01:19:05] it's like, but she has a nearly as many confessionals as Visepia overall because she's part of this
[01:19:11] like underdog tribe and Jeff Probs is a crush on her and it's a whole thing.
[01:19:14] Just give me thoughts on that. Not just the.
[01:19:17] Well, I mean, Gina was, Gina was like Hasselbeck levels of popular at the time because people
[01:19:27] were shipping her and Hunter and people loved Hunter. People were big mad about Hunter going home.
[01:19:34] But one thing I was actually, I went on this YouTube rabbit hole earlier in the week. I was
[01:19:41] watching a lot of Peridium videos about like various moments where survivor contestants broke
[01:19:47] the game. And one of the things that one of the moments that is pointed to as a moment of a survivor
[01:19:54] breaking the game is how Visepia manages to win the trivia challenge. And I think also how she
[01:20:03] more globally manages to keep a handle on all of her relationships with people in the game
[01:20:09] is because she had a journal as her luxury item and literally wrote down everything that happened
[01:20:16] to her on any given day and every fact she learns about everybody is all written down in this journal.
[01:20:21] How do you televise that? How do you make that like you see her writing a couple of times? And I
[01:20:27] think she mentions that she's keeping track, but this is a big tool that doesn't make for a very
[01:20:33] good story. I think she might be the reason we don't get luxury items in later seasons.
[01:20:37] Yeah, and I think this is also one of the reasons we don't get fallen comrades. I think also because
[01:20:41] of the Africa like snafu that they had. So but I would love for fallen comrades to come back. I
[01:20:47] thought it was so ingenious. And it's like if we I think like a super fans we know that Visepia was
[01:20:51] so much more craftier than the edit gave her. But like I just don't I don't trust the casual audience
[01:20:58] to figure that out on their own. So a little bit more telegraphing I think could have gone
[01:21:02] a long way because I think they really actually the editors do a pretty good job in showing why
[01:21:07] Nalia might lose. But she was so popular still I think in some respect because like she's part of
[01:21:13] that sweet whole heart mold and like there's still so many people that want the quote good
[01:21:17] people the hard workers to succeed as part of the fan base that like I think it was really hard
[01:21:21] for Visepia to overcome that and I think for like you know a very important winner in the grand scheme
[01:21:26] of things to kind of be shortchanged it's still something I'm bitter about. And maybe maybe take
[01:21:31] away just a little bit from Kathy considering how devastated the viewers were that Kathy did not
[01:21:37] make it to the finals that season. Maybe if you take a little from her and give it to Visepia.
[01:21:41] I think a little bit and honestly they could have taken more from the general like he doesn't need
[01:21:45] as much screen time in my opinion just give it to Visepia. But now that we kind of covered you know
[01:21:53] John's legacy how it's seen today and also what it was seen back then I think we can start wrapping
[01:21:59] this up soon Nige. Yeah so yes having gone through all of this information. Do you think
[01:22:06] Survivor needed John Carroll to fake? I this is a this is a hill that I have been willing to die
[01:22:15] on for many years. I absolutely think that the the fall of John Carroll is integral to the modern
[01:22:24] day game of Survivor yes. Yeah I think I would also say yes I mean theoretically maybe it happens
[01:22:32] later but like I think it was the right time with the right people it probably helps Boston Rob
[01:22:38] you know get onto another season and obviously we know how production loves that like it helped
[01:22:41] Survivor like thrive in a whole different way and be so culturally relevant and
[01:22:47] yeah I think it's it's one of the most important votes of all time. I think it's worth pointing out
[01:22:53] I don't think you get that many more chances if you don't have something big like this happening in
[01:22:58] season four what are the chances you're gonna make it to a season eight. Exactly exactly and it's
[01:23:05] kind of like the idea that the big alliance isn't going to be enough it's like I wish big brother
[01:23:10] took a page out of this book you know like when you think about like the big alliance just holding
[01:23:15] on for so long the fact that that shattered in the minds of so many people you don't hear people
[01:23:19] like Gabe come on to Survivor after that point you know like I like these are casting people who
[01:23:24] really want to play to some extent and who are open to the flips and the flips become such a
[01:23:30] huge part of Survivor where that really wasn't I think because it didn't exist before Marquesas
[01:23:34] really so very important. Yeah I would say that like technically they probably didn't need John
[01:23:41] Carroll specifically to fail but like in the spirit of the question yes because you know by the
[01:23:47] time they're already on location in Marquesas you have to imagine that a lot of the people in
[01:23:53] Thailand were at least going through like casting finals and everything right like they're already
[01:23:59] in the ether and I don't know that we're getting a big flip like this in Thailand if the John
[01:24:06] Carroll vote just like never comes together on Marquesas and then you get to Amazon even if you
[01:24:12] bring the same exact group of people are you going to have like Rob Sester Nino be so excited about
[01:24:19] this like way that you can do strategy if you don't see a major shift like this happening in
[01:24:25] Marquesas I think you're totally right Jess that there's only so many chances for it to happen I
[01:24:31] think the show was extremely lucky that it happened when it happened it's possible that it happens
[01:24:38] afterwards but I think yeah if it doesn't happen in Thailand either I think you're like really
[01:24:43] starting to run down the clock there. Yeah I totally agree um any other kind of John Carroll
[01:24:54] takes I have one more thing I want to say but I just I'd like to hear if you have anything you
[01:24:58] feel like that's on the tip of your tongue regarding your super fandom of Marquesas and John Carroll
[01:25:02] like. Well I think he still wants another chance out there and I think if we're bringing back any
[01:25:10] returnees I think we should give it to him I would love to see him come back I love that he still
[01:25:16] loves the show as much as he does all these years later and I think it's I think we should not
[01:25:24] underestimate his importance in the overall arc of survivor history. I think that's a great
[01:25:31] point and John has said that he's never been contacted before which is such a bummer and you
[01:25:35] feel like John and Nelia totally make sense for survivor game changers you know like they there's
[01:25:40] like a lot of viseppe of course you have been on for so many other seasons and I get why productions
[01:25:45] never been nearly as big on Marquesas as the super fans have been I'm sure in their mind it's like
[01:25:50] it's that season we had to do because 9-11 you know they're like they don't have fond memories of producing
[01:25:56] that season it was a super stressful time for them because they had to pivot they were miserable with
[01:26:00] all the no-nos yeah they have local government yeah so there's a lot of stuff like bad memories
[01:26:06] associated with the season yeah and unfortunately they make all the decisions exactly right um
[01:26:13] so one thing I kind of wanted to mention is that what I love about this you know entire
[01:26:17] conversation is that by talking by talking about John Carroll it means we also get to talk about
[01:26:22] queer representation we get to talk about Marquesas as a whole we talk about survivor strategic
[01:26:26] evolution there's so many little like pieces that come part of that conversation and so you know
[01:26:30] when I was reviewing when I was thinking about John Carroll and his legacy you know his sexuality is
[01:26:36] clearly part of that and I remember him being like you know he's the villain of the season and it's
[01:26:42] like oh the smart strategic gay villain a trope of survivor especially of that time you Richard
[01:26:49] Hatch feels that way as well Brandon Quinton has like a ball of sassy comments in Africa really
[01:26:57] did you know even Kobe is like more sympathetic at times but still like that sassy kind of hard
[01:27:02] exterior gay man this is like very much the show's representation how they think about
[01:27:07] queer characters as they develop them into show and also how they cast them and I wanted to mention
[01:27:12] here that I to my knowledge the first real gay fan favorite is Ty Trang and that's 2016 that is
[01:27:19] so many years later and so I think the idea that I don't know John Carroll as the gay villain is very
[01:27:26] interesting to me because it's it's you know he gets out on the show he's negatively toned his
[01:27:33] failures really important to the progress of the show but like I think it's important to kind of
[01:27:38] when you think about John and want to appreciate him more it's to really think about him in that like
[01:27:42] context and how we thought about like and like why why it was so epic to have someone like him
[01:27:47] succeed because of Richard Hatch also being that similar vein of this strategic smart alpha gay
[01:27:53] if you will and I don't know it just reminds me just how much we weren't supposed to root for
[01:27:57] people like that but somehow they still had their own like vocal fan bases you know they're also
[01:28:04] beautifully said kev yeah you know John Carroll like took a bullet for all the gays to come right I
[01:28:10] mean John Carroll I'm changing my answer yes John Carroll needed to fail in order for
[01:28:17] survivors to succeed I mean I think he really is important and it is a shame that he's never even
[01:28:23] been contacted to return I I think you're totally right just that John Carroll
[01:28:27] should he should be back in the superfan slot right there's always a superfan slot on a return
[01:28:32] he sees in give it to John it would be incredible to see him back all these years later considering
[01:28:38] he was so gamey even back then I think that he helped ensure that the show went down a path that
[01:28:46] we're obviously all very happy that it's been able to go to so I don't think that we can give
[01:28:51] John all of the flowers that he truly deserves yeah I mean and it's just like it's so crazy now
[01:28:58] that we have like gay heroes or like a dime a dozen now you have jam jam donethin like a lane
[01:29:04] from island of the idols like you know Carolyn is is queer and like that's like such an and like
[01:29:09] she's like we had a queer majority try you know like all of that and I remember it being so incredibly
[01:29:17] cool that like a gay man was running his tribe with an iron fist in the way that Richard Hatch
[01:29:22] really even wasn't you know and the fact that like there was something I really respected about
[01:29:28] that and it just kind of makes me think about obviously gay men are quite often cast in the
[01:29:31] role of villains at that time but like gays love villains you know like if what Disney villains
[01:29:37] aren't like seen as iconic by like the gay male like fan-based and there's something about like
[01:29:43] respecting someone who's so smart and capable and strong and strong-minded that like I think for a
[01:29:49] lot of like closeted teens like myself there's something very aspirational about John and I think
[01:29:53] if you think about it in those ways about like what an important piece that was and for him
[01:29:58] to be taken down by a bunch of holy rollers on top of that is something that is so beautiful but
[01:30:02] also like in moving and it's something that I just I have such reverence for and I wanted to make
[01:30:08] sure to mention that on this episode yeah thanks for sharing that kev yeah Jess any final thoughts
[01:30:14] on John Carroll Marquesas any of it I mean I think John Carroll himself summarizes himself as a
[01:30:23] new school survivor in an old school survivor's body and I think that's really that's a really
[01:30:29] accurate description well said do you have folks that is John Carroll we hope you enjoyed the journey
[01:30:39] I certainly have enjoyed being able to revisit him because I think he's a bit of an overlooked
[01:30:45] important piece of survivor's history and I highly encourage anybody who has not seen
[01:30:52] Marquesas maybe you didn't click on the episode but if you have not seen Marquesas you should
[01:30:55] definitely check yeah Jess do you have anything coming up that you'd like to share with any of
[01:31:01] the listeners who made it all the way through the podcast oh well I am kind of I'm on my yattas right
[01:31:08] now I'm spending most of my spare time writing and I have have another podcast coming up actually
[01:31:18] speak of the devil I am recording a podcast with Mario Lanza next week oh perfect yeah we're
[01:31:23] I'm going to be on his staff picks podcast and he banks those really far ahead of time so I have
[01:31:28] no idea when it's coming out but we are you know speaking of queer icons we will be watching and
[01:31:37] recapping the cinematic classic Xanadu so that's happening I'm pretty excited about that but other
[01:31:44] than that I'm just kind of waiting around for amazing race is going to start up at the end of
[01:31:48] next month and of course Robin Mike and I will be on the main channel talking about that and of course
[01:31:55] the the final Walking Dead chapter in my life is about to come to a close we will be watching
[01:32:04] The Walking Dead the ones who live which is dropping very soon and on post show recaps the
[01:32:08] panel will be covering that as well and I will also be reviewing that for variety so that's what's
[01:32:13] coming up with me yeah and where can people follow you I'm still on all the socials at Haymaker
[01:32:20] Hattie on the Twitter and the Instagram I'm waiting around to see which Twitter clone takes off
[01:32:27] have a mastodon I have a blue sky I have a threads but none of them feel like everybody's
[01:32:33] gravitating so once everybody gets somewhere let me know and I'll get on that as well yes
[01:32:39] don't get locked in like John Carroll you need to have keep your options open you know and all
[01:32:45] platforms in all paths to the future for you thought you knew are we only have one episode left
[01:32:52] it's going to be you thought you knew Sandra Diaz twine the queen stays queen the queen stays queen
[01:32:58] we'll be doing that with the Chappelle so good very excited to talk to him and we'll be answering the
[01:33:06] question was Sandra Diaz twine just lucky and talk about her legacy to the show and she's like
[01:33:13] my favorite contestant of all time so it's going to be a really great listen if you want to follow
[01:33:18] me you can follow me on Twitter at asian narc or on instagram at nate asian narcissist and
[01:33:30] you know hopefully we'll have another season after this as well you cannot find me on
[01:33:35] Twitter because I'm taking a break and it's actually been very good for me we'll see how long it lasts
[01:33:41] but it's been you know maybe when we do find out what the Twitter sequel is that everyone is gravitating
[01:33:46] towards maybe I'll get back on to that but for now it's uh it's been good so Jess thank you so much for
[01:33:53] joining us that's been an absolute blast thank you for listening everybody and we hope you listen to
[01:33:59] our finale next week on Sandra Diaz twine take care bye
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Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240205230933' directory
Kevin and Nigel are joined by Jessica Liese to discuss one of Survivor’s earliest strategists, John Carroll on You Thought You Knew.